Real trailer trash?

We have lots of folks with professional counseling, and training experience, social workers, etc. I'm wondering if you could give me some insight here...

A recent visit to Phil's home left me completely digusted. His home has always been unkempt, messy, dirty and just plain disgusting to begin with, but NOW it looks like the inside of a trash dumpster, honest to God.

There are things strewn everywhere, not a clear surface in sight, stuff carelessly piled and thrown on floors, furniture, doorways, etc. Inches of dust everywhere, dishes piled up, twelve inches of just junk covering the entire table in the dining room, save for about a space the size of 2 by 3 feet. There are newspapers everywhere, papers, tapes, clothing, books, overflowing ashtrays, whatever. Laundry is done, but sheets are never changed, bathrooms aren't cleaned, etc. I walk in the door and just don't move any further into the place for I am just frozen in fear!

Are situations when children under 18 live in this considered dangerous or abusive at all? What is wrong with these people that they live in such complete and utter chaos and filth in their surroundings?

I have honestly never seen anything like it in my life!

I'm assuming that Phil still lives at home with his mother, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm in Connecticut and we had a recent case where a teenage boy hanged himself. It was found that his home looked like this and his mother was accused and convicted of child endangerment because of the way she took care of the home. It was felt that this environment contributed to his depression, isolation and suicide.

So, yes...I'd say its child abuse.

The only exception would be if she is too disabled to clean and then the question would be why hasn't she asked for help. Of course, it also begs to be answered as to why he doesn't pick anything up. Children learn from what they see at home. You might have to retrain this one, big time.

Peace,
Jane

Every state has different guidelines regarding public health and living spaces. If the home meets "minimum" standards, the situation is usually left alone, even with children living there.

When I was married to the minister we had a situation where this couple had five boys, constant lice problems and their house was a freaking disastor area - far worse than what you've described. The state would do NOTHING because it wasn't as bad as it COULD be. It took me dragging a social worker buddy over to the house for a covert "tour" where we literally had to document everything we saw. The state finally stepped in and when they toured the basement, this is what they found. . .this town required certain "trash bags" for pick up and each year was a different color. This basement was about 40 x75 and was FULL floor to cieling with these bags piled one on top of another. The social worker could come down the stairs and walk into a four foot space and that was it. You couldn't even see the windows.

The state paid for one of those huge dumpsters and the clean up began with hired state workers - they found bags from the 70's down there. The place reeked. It was just disgusting. And they still didn't remove the kids.

On the other hand, another state we lived in, if you had crumbs on your table, it was grounds to take your kids from the home because it "wasn't sanitary". Public health rules are based heavily upon the current director and the state statutes.

That said, I don't know if Phil lives with family or alone, but, if he's a bachelor, maybe he's just too lazy to clean. I know a lot of guys like that. On the other hand, has he ever been checked for depression? One of my ym's brothers suffers from serious depression and he literally didn't clean his house for one YEAR one time because it was just too hard for hime to function. The family got together, cleaned his house for him and worked him back into counseling. Maybe Phil needs a little push or something. . .either to clean or get some help. Either way, it might be worth looking into. ;)

Phil lives with both parents who are not disabled. One is employed completely. No one in the house is yet 40 years old.

He's moving here in several weeks. My house is very clean, and he's been here before and follows how I keep house so it's not a problem. But I was just wondering about people who live like this, and maybe it is depresssion? I just know that my skin crawls when I walk in that door....

Interesting that this topic came up this morning, because I'm giving my place a good dusting, vacuuming and general tidying this weekend. I don't know about other people, but I'm not comfortable with mess, and I'm a lot less productive in disorganized surroundings.

I have a lot of experience with this subject.....

When we were little, we had the most immaculately cleaned house in the neighborhood! Several years ago, before my father passed away, he told me that he desparately needed to talk to me. He said that he was afraid that my mother was going crazy. I knew that no one had been allowed into my parent's house for several years, and my mom always blamed it on the fact that she was raising dogs and that they would go bonkers if anyone would enter the house! Unfortunately, I believed her. I was sad that we weren't allowed in, but after my father passed away I understood why.

After my dad died, my mother's house caught on fire. Everything in the house was destroyed (except the dogs and my mother). When I flew in from California and walked through the house, my mouth was hanging open in shock and I wasn't able to speak for about 4 days after I saw what I saw; there were only tiny, narrow pathways to walk through (even though everything was burned, it was still there). There were dirty dishes and empty jars, cans, etc. piled up to the ceiling in the kitchen (including on the stove, etc.). The huge backyard was piled up 8 feet and had tiny pathways through it all. Everything was disgusting! There were mice and mice feces everywhere, inside of burned shoes, etc. I freaked!

I took my mother to a psychologist and she was diagnosed with Obsessive compulsive disorder (she had the hoarding type) and depression (or bipolar....they weren't sure which).

The entire house stank like hell (and it wasn't only the smell of smoke)! It was cleaned up and completely rebuilt and was a beautiful house after that!

The apartment that my mother stayed in for 1 1/2 years while they rebuilt her house became just as disgusting! My mother shopped compulsively and piled everything with junk! She didn't just buy 1 vacuum cleaner or one coffee pot or one bread maker - she had to have 5 or 6 or 7 of everything (and most of the junk she bought was from thrift stores and didn't work, anyway!).

When she moved back into her newly built, beautiful home, we thought that she would change. No!!! She was ordered to have a cleaning lady, and the lady would call me all the time in California and tell me that my mother was shopping compulsively and buying all kinds of broken crap. The lady was sneaking in the house while my mother was shopping and taking pickup truckloads of junk away every week!!! I was shocked.

My mother finally fired the cleaning lady, accusing her of stealing my mother's "valuable" things!

Fast forward to 6 years later........my husband and I weren't allowed in the house....we had moved to Phx. to be close to my mother, due to her failing health. I didn't believe that she could have destroyed the house again in only 6 years....but, since we weren't allowed near it, and she had locked wrought iron gates, we didn't know what was going on. 1 1/2 years ago, my mother had another stroke and a 3rd degree heart block and ended up in the hospital. We *had* to get the keys and get inside to take care of her animals. OMG!!!!!!! It was disgusting! She had again piled up bags and bags and bags of stuff from thrift stores and regular stores and had only pathways through the house - there was a foot high of clothing all over the floors that you had to walk all over to get through the house; the kitchen was piled full of empty, filthy cans, etc and there were maggots all over everything. It was the most disgusting, horrifying thing I've ever seen (or smelled). We knew that she needed help desparately, so we sent her to a psychiatrist. My mother was diagnosed with OCD, bi-polar disorder and dementia.

My mother had spent $90,000 in one year alone just buying *junk*!!!!! Useless junk that she thought was extremely valuable.

My husband and I moved out of our beautiful new home because there was no way that my mother could live there since she could no longer walk after the last stroke. All of the bedrooms and bathrooms were upstairs in our house. Jeremy said that we would clean her house and move in and take care of her (she could no longer live alone, obviously). I said that he was nuts!!! Well, we ended up having a huge team of pro. cleaning people clean with us - we're talking 10 enormous dumpsters and lots of yardsales, etc. She has no idea that we sold the stuff and used all the money to pay for the cleaning and the dumpsters. She would die if she knew it! She thinks that all her "valuable" stuff is in a storage room somewhere. Anyway, the house is now beautiful and extremely clean and I have to watch my mother like a hawk when we go shopping - she always wants to buy tons and tons of useless stuff. Sometimes she insists on buying it and I get tired of arguing with her - I end up returning the stuff to the stores and putting it back on her credit card.

OCD is one of the hardest things to treat, even with medication. The only reason that we can keep it under control is that we live with her and that she can no longer walk! Otherwise, she'd have piled this house and yard up again! (She had had numerous fines by the city that I hadn't known about).

Yesterday, Dr. Phil had a show on about this very thing. My mother watched it - I was cooking in the adjoining kitchen, and I said, "See Mom? You even had that lady beat" - the lady's house was nothing compared to my mother's house!

Bubbleee.....whoever is doing the hoarding, piling up, etc. at Phil's house needs help! Hopefully Phil is not like that, but if he is, he can get some help. The people cannot help it - it is a real sickness. Depression can cause people to not be able to get the energy or motivation to clean. If the people get on antidepressants, it can help, but........if it's OCD, it's a real job to change it. They say that medication and therapy combined are the best bet.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Perhaps this is one of Phil's parents. Sometimes, when someone is working full time and depressed, they totally fall apart at the end fo the day. THey've "held it together" as much and as long as they could and once they return home, cleaning is near next to impossible.

Melodee, I have a friend who's mom was like your mom, only she wouldn't allow the dad to live upstairs. He lived in an apartment in the basement while she filled up the upstairs with lots and lots of "stuff". When she died Larelle entered the upstairs of the home for the first time since she'd been a teenager and was appalled. There was cat hair all over everything, the carpeting and furniture was infested with fleas, there were piles of papers and magazines everywhere, bags of garbage, five or six of every different type of kitchen gadget. She even had three stereos still in the boxes. It too was the clean up job from hell.

I seriously think there's a heavier correlation between OCD and clinical depression, more than what is focused on anyway. I'm glad your mom is doing better, now, though, Mel. {{hugs}}

Now, back to Phil. . .if he follows the rules in your home, Bub, I think that he probably doesn't have the problem, he's probably relieved to be in a home that's clean. But, just in case, it's probably in your best interest to gently lay out some ground rules, so to speak, and encourage him to keep up what you're already started.

At the same time, here's the other side of the coin. Some people are just slobs and like it that way. I went to school with some girls from a family like that. They enjoyed having farm animals in the living room and using an outhouse and all that. . .I can't even describe to you what these people lived like. :rolleyes:

Molly, you reminded me.....there was at least 1 inch thick of dog hair all over everything here! My mom had 22 Lhasa Apso dogs in the house! Also, my mother had things like new stereos in boxes, etc. Unbelievable, isn't it? What's sad is that it would have taken at least 1 year to have gone through every item in this place in order to sort it - we didn't have the time to do that. There are many things that were from my great grandmother that my mother had been saving for me (antique china, etc). Too late.....:(

In my girlhood one of my best friends had a minister father. I rarely went to her house. One day, I finally did and I got the creepiest sensation when I walked in. There were things piled everywhere. Newspapers, books, magazines. I decided then and there something was fishy in that household. My pal said that they did not throw anything away. Too bad, there were five people living in a house that was smaller than the one I lived in. And by the way, my mom is a compulsive cleaner. I grew up in a spotless house.

My ex-husband's father lived in an absolute wreck of a house. When I read your description of Phil's house, Bubbleee, I was immediately reminded of my ex's father's house. Inch-thick dust everywhere, kitchen sink constantly piled with dirty dishes, junk piled up in the hallways and every room crowded with trash, old papers and magazines -- plus piles of dog hair everywhere.

I worked in public health for 4 years and I'd never seen anything as bad in my life. When my ex came to live with me in my relatively clean apt, at first he thought he'd died and gone to heaven.

However, over time it was obvious that because my ex was raised in a disaster area, he thought the disaster area was "normal". It was like pulling teeth to get him to learn to clean up after himself, and his area of our apt where he had his computer desk was always in a state of constant chaos. He'd usually get ticked-off if I asked him to tidy it up. He'd help with the housecleaning, but only after I pushed him into it. He just never seemed to "see" any mess.

His dad got to be too ill to take care of himself (probably due to the filthy environment he was in) and he moved to a retirement community. The house was such a wreck that it had to be destroyed because it was a fire hazard which threatened the entire block.

As it turned out, his father was a depressed, critical and distant man who never gave my ex much love or support. My ex wound up being psychologically damaged, which led to him constantly seeking attention and validation in between bouts of depression and self-loathing. Eventually he became a sex addict and walked out on our marriage.

So personally, I'd take the state of his house as a huge red flag. No one can live in that sort of environment without its leaving some kind of mark on their psyche. :(

I'm not sure it's OCD cause they are poor so they don't buy much of anything outside of newspapers and food, I guess.... The place is really tiny and the basement is overflowing as well!

Neither one of the parents were raised that way. I've been to both grandparents homes and they are neat, tidy, spacious and clean.

The entire contents of that house is probably worth a hundred bucks. Everything in there is either old, broken, soiled, or worn. There must be a hundred nicknacks and family photos covered in dust and grime everywhere.

What really gets me is that the division of work in this place was laid out long ago and that the man does NO housework even if he doesn't work. Phil does laundry and dishes but has never been shown how to do anything else, honest to God! I actually had to teach him how to shave when I first met him because his father never showed him how. It truly boggles the mind.

I'm so afraid there will be a fire in there and the occupants will die. With the structure being a manufactured home, it could go up in minutes.

This just really upsets me, you know?

Bub

P.S. Mel, I am so sorry about your mom and all that you went through with her OCD/depression, etc. Thanks for sharing the story {{{{hugs}}}

Best guess is that one or both parents are suffering from severe depression. Depression runs in families, btw. And of course you're upset -- any reasonable person would be. No one should have to live in squalor.

It's not fair that some people have to bear the brunt of their parents' mistakes, but that's what happens. Children learn what they live.

Originally posted by bubbleee
We have lots of folks with professional counseling, and training experience, social workers, etc. I'm wondering if you could give me some insight here...

A recent visit to Phil's home left me completely digusted. His home has always been unkempt, messy, dirty and just plain disgusting to begin with, but NOW it looks like the inside of a trash dumpster, honest to God.

There are things strewn everywhere, not a clear surface in sight, stuff carelessly piled and thrown on floors, furniture, doorways, etc. Inches of dust everywhere, dishes piled up, twelve inches of just junk covering the entire table in the dining room, save for about a space the size of 2 by 3 feet. There are newspapers everywhere, papers, tapes, clothing, books, overflowing ashtrays, whatever. Laundry is done, but sheets are never changed, bathrooms aren't cleaned, etc. I walk in the door and just don't move any further into the place for I am just frozen in fear!

Are situations when children under 18 live in this considered dangerous or abusive at all? What is wrong with these people that they live in such complete and utter chaos and filth in their surroundings?

I have honestly never seen anything like it in my life!

Reading this thread brought back so many 'bad' memories......U see I grew up in a home worse than the one u describe here....... Laundry did NOT get done ... Animal dirt under most of the furniture because 'her' cats were not housetrained in any way ........ green mold on the bread, an rancid butter were a norm...........I can remember horrors that most ppl fail to understand or believe.........Did it have an effect on me?? U bet it did......... for my entire life I have lived in absolute fear of becoming like my mother and ending up living like that. It is a fear that will not go away ....

My home is by no means kept immaculate an sure ain't co-ordinated etc, it is Clean an pleasent, cluttered with books etc. and, I am told, very warm an welcoming :D

Originally posted by Shewolf
Reading this thread brought back so many 'bad' memories......U see I grew up in a home worse than the one u describe here....... Laundry did NOT get done ... Animal dirt under most of the furniture because 'her' cats were not housetrained in any way ........ green mold on the bread, an rancid butter were a norm...........I can remember horrors that most ppl fail to understand or believe.........Did it have an effect on me?? U bet it did......... for my entire life I have lived in absolute fear of becoming like my mother and ending up living like that. It is a fear that will not go away ....

While growing up, our house was extremely clean. I do, however, have fear like you do, Shewolf. Ever since the day I walked into my mom's house after that fire (and her house *was* a huge fire hazard! Living like that is so dangerous), I have been neurotic about cleaning (kind of like Monica on the show, "Friends"). I am so afraid that if I don't keep everything picked up and cleaned, that it will eventually overtake me and become impossible to ever keep up with. It causes me to have a sense of nervousness that I didn't have before; I feel like I may never be able to catch up with it if I let it go - sad, because it's hard for me to relax because of that.

A respite nurse who was over here one day told me that it's not all that uncommon for elderly people with dementia to have homes like that (I showed her photos of what the house looked like before we cleaned it all up). I don't know if that's what caused my mother to change, but it might be the reason. She's very alert mentally, but all the mini strokes have caused some major changes in her, both mentally and physically. I think that she was always kind of a pack rat, but it didn't used to be too bad.

I worry about this myself. I fight the clutter in my home
constantly and try to blame it on the fact that I live in such
a small new york city studio apartment, but my beautiful
but troubled Aunt has always seemed to have the same
problem and she lives in a huge house in the suburbs of
Chicago. As of last year she will not allow anyone to see
it...major warning signal, no? And HER aunt, my great-aunt,
was the same was as you guys have described your family
members....newspapers going back decades, groceries never
unpacked, clutter LITERALLY spilling out the windows of the
apartment!

Whenever I feel it getting out of hand, I think of these
women in my family and try to do my best to THROW
THINGS AWAY!

I'm actually glad my ym is right out of college and a bit of
a clutter-bug himself, so he finds my little apartment a
perfectly comfortable place to be. Give him a beer and
the remote and he's happy :rolleyes:

Originally posted by whisper
...my mouth was hanging open in shock and I wasn't able to speak for about 4 days after I saw what I saw; there were only tiny, narrow pathways to walk through...There were dirty dishes and empty jars, cans, etc. piled up to the ceiling in the kitchen (including on the stove, etc.). The huge backyard was piled up 8 feet and had tiny pathways through it all. Everything was disgusting! There were mice and mice feces everywhere...The entire house stank like hell...My mother shopped compulsively and piled everything with junk! ...my husband and I weren't allowed in the house.......but, since we weren't allowed near it, and she had locked wrought iron gates, we didn't know what was going on...We *had* to get the keys and get inside to take care of her animals. OMG!!!!!!! It was disgusting! She had again piled up bags and bags and bags of stuff from thrift stores and regular stores and had only pathways through the house - there was a foot high of clothing all over the floors that you had to walk all over to get through the house; the kitchen was piled full of empty, filthy cans, etc and there were maggots all over everything. It was the most disgusting, horrifying thing I've ever seen (or smelled).

Oh maaan Melodee. I had no idea others lived this way.
This, is my mother.

My mother has always been a prescription pill addict and depressed and agoraphobic. Man I resent this, but am trying to let it go. She whines. She wouldn't let anyone help her.
Years of collecting dogs (chihuahuas and yorkies), chain smoking, newspaper and book hoarding, TV obsession...one about in every inch of the house and useless freaking shopping from QVC, any type of catalog and now she has gotten the internet down. Her house, inside and out which sits on prime Bay Area property, is crap.

She didn't allow me in for years. Hmmm. I think from 1995 to 2004 she would meet me outside if I would come by. If I had to go pee, I went to Starbuck's. She didn't have a bathtub/shower for 3 years. The floor rotted out, and she was so worried about having a contractor come in and report her and her 8+ indoor dogs who peed everywhere, and her narrow walkways, or lack thereof, and the filth, and the smell and...shoot, it looked like something from some horror movie. Like Kevin Spacey's apartment in *Seven*...
(my brother, the drug addict, finally cam by for a couple weeks...my mom put him up in a hotel and on the days he didn't call in sick, to his mother, he worked on the bathroom...she would, as she called it, *wh*re bath* in the kitchen)

Jeez. I know it's still like that. I know she is a very sad, emotionally sick woman. And I know she is not physically well.

We are not close, and will likely not speak again. That is a whole other story...she is one to *write kids off*...I didn't stand up to her ever, kept up the eggshell routine until January of this year when I was just tired of it and told her that I didn't appreciate the way she treats me. Well, she stopped talking to me all together...just because I stood up to her...and I feel like...well, so be it!

So, I do understand that behavior.

There is an emptyness somewhere with the person who has that behavior. I hope their son, your ym is okay. You may want to talk to him about this, he may feel sensitive about having had to live like this. Help him. I suspect this hurt him somehow.

xoxokerri

(sorry if I just went off...OP and melodee's post hit home...)

There is an emptyness somewhere with the person who has that behavior. I hope their son, your ym is okay. You may want to talk to him about this, he may feel sensitive about having had to live like this. Help him. I suspect this hurt him somehow.

What you, Shewolf and Melodee describe is truly amazing and probably more common than I realized.

I think there's emptiness and depression, especially in his mom, and alot of denial and fantasy as well. She's in a lousy situation with an emotionally abusive husband, who is unemployed and basically shiftless. She should become a "spin doctor" because she puts a spin on everything that happens with the father, including, he doesn't mean it and Phil just doesn't understand, etc.

The physical enironment only mirrors the state of the family maybe. I wouldn't say they look perfect on the outside to the rest of the world but the mom takes great pains to present a picture to the rest of the world that some of us know doesn't exist at all.

I hope that you that have lived this type of thing can recover from it. Shewolf, it sounds like you've made some peace with your living conditions. Melodee, you realized your mom is ill and did what you can to mitigate the circumstances. Kerri, I can't imagine what is going on with your mom but it's good that you try to let it go as you have.

I really think that some of these housekeeping issues are signs of emotional or mental problems. Scarlet Hawke, I think you found that to be so with your ex-father in law too.

It's rather serious stuff, isn't it?

Oh, Kerri, some of what you wrote sounds so familiar! My mother would meet us outside, we'd have to go down to McDonald's to use the bathroom, we had to stay in hotels whenever we visited from California, etc. It just blows me away to know that there are others who have gone through this; it was such a "skeleton in the closet" for me for a few years - I was afraid of anyone finding out. I was scared to death for Jeremy to find out how my mother lived, but when he went over and saw it for the first time (when she was in the hospital), as I walked around the house crying for hours (tripping over everything), he immediately took charge and made plans about how we were going to get it all cleaned up. I feel like he's like an angel who was sent to help me through so much.

It's truly liberating to be able to "talk" with others about stuff that is humiliating and embarrassing. I feel so much better after having read this thread and realizing that I am not the only one who has a parent like that.

Bubbleee, don't automatically assume that Phil will be the same as his parents. I am not like that....and thank God I have a husband who would start giving things away if I were ever to become like that. Phil will have you and you can have a big influence on him; he will see what it's like to live in a neat, clean environment.

bubbleee~

My ex-boyfriend whom I was with for six years grew up in horrible conditions. When we started dating, he was 21 and lived with his brother in an apartment. He moved out of his family home when he was 17 and after I visited their home, I knew why he got out so early.

In this home live his aunt and uncle (the aunt left for another man eventually), their uncles three sons, three daughters, two nephews and four nieces. My ex was one of the nephews. After he left, one of his cousins had two boys and one girl that lived with the uncle. This was in a three bedroom house.

The windows were broken and patched and boarded. The porch was sunken in and split in two. Inside, the floor was bare dirty dusty boards and the walls were dark brown and covered with roaches. All of the furniture was dingy and dirty. It was horribly stinky and there were mice flitting around under the furniture. There was no indoor plumbing. It had broken down years earlier and had never been fixed.

My ex's niece that lived there told me they had snakes as well. They also told me that the basement had cracked years earlier from the house settling and it had never been repaired. They said there was 3-4 feet of water in the basement at all times. This was a concern because one of the uncle's daughter's weighed around 400 lbs. and it was thought she could fall through the weak floor boards into this water filled basement.

A neighbor finally called a hotline on the uncle because all the little kids (grandkids that lived there) constantly had cuts, scrapes and sores on their bodies. The house was condemned. They were told if they didn't get those children (the little ones) out, they would be placed in state custody. The family did move.

Can you believe the uncle was offended that someone would call?

I am glad to say that although my ex grew up in these conditions he was and still is a well-kept and clean guy who keeps his house in order.

Originally posted by 1love

Can you believe the uncle was offended that someone would call?

Yep. I can definately believe it; people who live like that can get extremely upset if anyone on the outside intervenes! It's sad but true.

Originally posted by 1love


I am glad to say that although my ex grew up in these conditions he was and still is a well-kept and clean guy who keeps his house in order.

See, Bubbleee....there's hope.

I didn't live like my mother now does growing up. My father died when I was 16 in 1985, and my mother left for the Bay Area...left me. I lived with friends for a while. Took my GED. Went overseas on a year exchange program with money from a trust I received when I was hit on my bike (at 14) by a truck....

My mom remarried (it was her 4th marriage) That lasted about a year and 1/2...moved in with another man directly after that and married him (5th) in '88. They have been together since.

All I can say is that my mother has always suffered from depression. She is now 63 and feels she can't leave...always tells me there is no love. They are roommates. He is a nice man, and always sticks up for her. Has never complained to me about the house. But, it really should be condemned. It's disgusting.

Our house was clean when I was a child. My mother loved my dad...I think on the most part they had an okay relationship. They were together for 17 years...she was 44 when he died. She had a really rough life, and she, as long as I really remember her has always acted like death is just around the corner. Always has the next new disease, always a new drug.
With all of the chain smoking, somehow she is still alive.

I don't feel any remorse anymore about her distancing herself from me. I think I took it personally for a long time until I had my son. When it turns out...over 5 years of my being pregnant and having my son...her only seeing him like 3 times...yeah. that sucks. I do not know her.

I tried to help with the house. Once I rented a large uhaul and parked it in her driveway. SHe had stacks of boxes loaded outside, and I loaded them in...to take home and keep or sell at a yard sale. Well, most of those boxes were just stuffed with whatever crap was on the floor that she shoved in. Man, that was a bad idea.

If they will let you help them, try. If they won't, believe them and walk away. You can't help.

If there are minors involved, do step in.

Man.

What could this type of therapy group be called?

"Children of OCD: miscellaneous hoarders"?

>>edit: forgive the disjointed rambling. I can't think very clearly when it comes to this subject. Living like that just messes with my mind...on my own with this information, for the life of me, I haven't been able to figure out/come to terms with this type of behavior.:mad:

I just have one question here..... if Phil lives at home and the place is such a mess..... I just wonder how much Phil does his part in trying to clean up a bit. My ex complained about his moms house, but I found that although he liked a clean house he expected someone else to clean it and he was part of the problem when he lived at home.... and was a slob when he and I got a place together. He rarely picked up anything he dropped, after a bath the towel and his dirty clothes were left on the floor, or when he ate, whatever he got OUT of a cupboard or the refrigerator just stayed out. I thought we both felt the same way about having a clean house but the difference was in agreeing how it was to STAY cleaned up. Either I cleaned it, or it was a mess. When you were at Phils house, what was HIS room like??? Its hard for someone to get in the habit of cleaning up behind themself when they never have been brought up where it mattered. You can wish you lived in a clean place, but to me, if Im in a dirty place and cant stand it, I think I would have to clean it up myself. It doesnt sound like Phil has done that at home, so Im not so sure what your going to run into when he moves in with you. Good luck;).............
PS... gee I sounded awful negative as I read over this. Dont mean to be because on the good side my y/m grew up in a similar situation and I am happy to say since we have been together he has painted and if something gets broken he fixes it, he takes care of the yard and cleans up behind himself and me as well at times :eek: so everyone is different and its not written in stone that you have to be a slob if your parents were.
It might also help when Phil moves in, that he feels its his place too. Ask his advice about what color to paint a room, or get his input and share in decision making . I made a big fuss about how well my y/m painted the living room and the next thing I knew he had decided to tackle the bedroom walls LOL I thanked him when he made sandwiches or something and put the stuff away, etc. I think you will work things out and once Phil gets used to living in a clean home, he will probably be like my y/m and never want to go back to living any other way.:D

Originally posted by charo
I just have one question here..... if Phil lives at home and the place is such a mess..... I just wonder how much Phil does his part in trying to clean up a bit. My ex complained about his moms house, but I found that although he liked a clean house he expected someone else to clean it and he was part of the problem when he lived at home.... and was a slob when he and I got a place together. He rarely picked up anything he dropped, after a bath the towel and his dirty clothes were left on the floor, or when he ate, whatever he got OUT of a cupboard or the refrigerator just stayed out. I thought we both felt the same way about having a clean house but the difference was in agreeing how it was to STAY cleaned up. Either I cleaned it, or it was a mess

Wow- I can really relate to this Charo.
My ex was exactly the same way.
He would complain a lot about how I didn't spend
enough time cleaning, but then it was his
work boots in the middle of the living room, his
wet towels in a wad on the bathroom floor and
his newspaper spread out all over the place
after he finished reading it.

I had the misfortune of having two mother-in-laws
when I was married to my ex, (his parents divorced
when he was 14 and both remarried).
These women did nothing but clean and their homes
were spotless.
He compared me to them often, (which I resented much).
I told my ex before we married, I am not into
cleaning the house.
I am not one of those type women that put on
their rubber gloves and scours the house from
the time they get up till the time they go to bed!
I let the cobwebs build up at times and have a nice
little collection of dust bunnies under my bed.
I hate to wash windows and detest washing walls.
BUT-
I do make the time to do it.
When I have a long hard shift at work, no, I don't come
home and clean the house till midnight.
Funny how cleaner the house is now that
I am divorced.
I make the kids clean up after themselves and I do a
good job at doing the same.
I'm the type that takes one day a month and I get the
kids with me and we clean stem to stern.
I just don't knock myself out cleaning on a daily basis.
I do wash dishes, vacuum, dust, do laundry
and clean the bathroom daily-
but the other cleaning happens an less steady basis.
My yard and gardens, on the other hand, are immaculate
My house looks decent enough for drop-in company.
This wasn't always the case when I was married.

I am a packrat also-
but I am good at getting it all squirred away so it is
not over-flowing throughout the house.
My closets are plum full and I have been trying to
cut down on what I pack home.

I am not sure why some people can live in filth?
My house might be cluttered at times and the corners
decorated with a few cobwebs, but there is never
old food or pet poop anywhere.
I am a real stickler about that kind of thing.
The smelliest thing you'll find in my house might be
my 16 year old son's sneakers left in the living room-
which I complain about a lot.

I think people just get used to it and after awhile-
they don't see it, (or smell it), as a big mess.
It becomes normal to them.



<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Tempus Sans ITC">Could it be that I never had the chance to grow inside?
Could it be that my habit is to find a place to hide?
Could it be that sometimes I say things just to disagree?
Could it be that I'm only being me?
Not easy living in my mind
a little peace is hard to find
my every thought is undermined
by all the history inside</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=Black FACE="Freestyle Script">Staind</FONT>

Originally posted by charo
I just have one question here..... if Phil lives at home and the place is such a mess..... I just wonder how much Phil does his part in trying to clean up a bit. My ex complained about his moms house, but I found that although he liked a clean house he expected someone else to clean it and he was part of the problem when he lived at home.... and was a slob when he and I got a place together. He rarely picked up anything he dropped, after a bath the towel and his dirty clothes were left on the floor, or when he ate, whatever he got OUT of a cupboard or the refrigerator just stayed out. I thought we both felt the same way about having a clean house but the difference was in agreeing how it was to STAY cleaned up. Either I cleaned it, or it was a mess. When you were at Phils house, what was HIS room like??? Its hard for someone to get in the habit of cleaning up behind themself when they never have been brought up where it mattered. You can wish you lived in a clean place, but to me, if Im in a dirty place and cant stand it, I think I would have to clean it up myself. It doesnt sound like Phil has done that at home, so Im not so sure what your going to run into when he moves in with you. Good luck;).............


I just had to reply to this ........I don't know about Phil in his situation ....However, in my case I DID try very hard to clean the place up and keep it cleaner, not a simple task with no cleaning products apart from cold water an rags, an a very good chance of getting clouted if caught doing it by my stepfather, something that happened often, or lectured for doing it all the wrong way by my mother. Basically in my situation I couldn't win ....... As for keeping my room/space tidy, I shared my room with 3 others, it wasn't a large room yet had 2 single beds, 1 double bed, a huge chest of drawers, dressing table and an old settee piled with dirty clothes. I washed my own clothes, by hand from an early age an was always getting into trouble for 'stealing' my stepfather's soap to do it ....... What I am trying to say is that it might not be possible for someone in Phil's situation to actually do anything to make it better/cleaner no matter how hard they try ....

As an aside both my, living, half sisters have homes like they grew up in whereas the 2 brothers have never lived in squalor AFAIK

EDIT: I have just read Nessa's post........... I certianly have no intention of causing anyone discomfort in relating my experiances ........ An I sure don't live in anyone's idea of a neat an tidy home myself, but like u the basic stuff is done all the time

I'd be mortified if you all saw my house. :( I don't really think my house is as bad as some that have been described here, but I have to admit that it's full of clutter. For me, the primary reason is because of my health. For the past 20 years, I have had arthritis. I suffer from overwhelming fatigue and can barely make it through the work week. I keep my dishes and laundry clean. But, I live in a small house and the clutter stacks up quickly and I just don't have the energy to keep my house clean like I used to 20 years ago.

About once every 3-4 months, I go through and do a thorough cleaning when I have a burst of energy and strength. But by no means do I have the strength to do stuff like washing walls or windows. Each week, I do what I feel that I can do. And, now this summer, I am back to doing my own lawnwork so the indoor work is getting even less attention as that zaps all the strength right out of me.

I know the kind of clutter and filth you all are talking about. I have a dear friend whose house is exactly like you all have described. I believe he also has OCD. But, your posts have made me start to think about my own home even more. :(

I'm not suggesting that my situation was the situation of all these people mentioned in the above posts, but am wondering if any of them also have physical health problems like me?

EDIT: I also wanted to add that I grew up in a home that was always kept spotless. But, then my mother did not work outside the home. Because my childhood home was always spotless, I have always been ashamed of my own home and have rarely allowed visitors in to visit and then only after I have about killed myself to thoroughly clean it. If you have arthritis, and all the fatigue that comes with it, you know just what I mean.

Yup. Know how you feel. I guess the main reason I posted about my house is to raise awareness that you can't always assume that the reason a person's house is a mess is because of laziness. There are some that are like Melodee's mom's and that's clearly OCD. But, then there are others that are unkempt like mine and it may be due to a physical health problem. Never assume anything.

Ladies,

Just want you to know that I am not passing judgement on housekeeping in general, ok? Everyone has their own issues including health, work, priorities, etc. How they were raised and what level of clutter they are comfortable with, etc. I respect the differences.

Personally, my house is very clean. I work full time and I do it myself and just try to keep on top of things generally. It's a PERSONAL thing more than anything. I make my bed every morning when I get up; it's just how I am.

As far as Phil's situation is concerned the guy hasn't been taught anything. There are NO cleaning products like Shewolf said. There are THREE able bodied people in that house with only ONE of them working and going to school. If they just hung up jackets and threw out newspapers it would make a HUGE difference. Now how hard is that, really?

Phil isn't a slob. He's very clean and his room is relatively neat although its the size of a closet. When he visits me he picks up after himself and chips in to help.

If you have three able bodied people and the place is a disasater, and not all of them are working, then something else is going on here, you know?

Oh I understand what you're saying bubbleee. I know full well that there are many houses out there that could be cleaner if the occupants only worked harder at it.

If I were able-bodied, believe me, my house would be cleaner. I only brought up my situation because everyone needs to understand that there may be more to the situation than meets the eye.

Just over the weekend, when I was moaning about how badly my body was hurting, my daughter said to me, "but, mama, you never look sick." That's the problem. People have no idea how badly I feel since I am able to get to work each day with a smile on my face. After 20 years, I have adapted as well I can to the chronic pain and fatigue. I hide my pain and fatigue well from the public. But, trust me, I crash when I go home. But, I doubt anyone who I work with really understands how I feel because I don't "look sick."

Time to yank out the personal stories...yikes!

At one point in my life I kind of just...well lost it. I was having panic attacks and anxiety issues and an abusive relationship..and it was all just overwhelming. My house got really dirty. It was bad enough that it in itself was overwhelming. My father said I got so depressed, I didn't really realize how bad it was. He was supportive. My mother, on other hand, wanted to get my children taken away. It wasn't really bad enough to get my children taken away...but it was bad enough. I have not been able to understand to this day why my mother didn't go....Honey, you seem to be having a hard time, lets get together and let me help you out.

Sometimes you need someone to help you get motivated....help you feel better.

I think the best thing you can do, if you know the person fairly well, is offer to help out. As far as housework now, I am more like Sage. I pick up during the week, and Saturday I really "clean the house" which is my day off.

originally posted by Nessa


I think that the issue is someone called ON HIM didn't GO TO HIM and say 'can i help you seem overwhelmed?"


I'm sorry Nessa, I didn't give all the details of the story because it's so long. However, people did offer to help the uncle several times. In fact, he had several friends who were carpenters, plumbers, electricians, etc. that offered to build him a new house, free labor that would have only cost around $15,000 at that time.

He worked full-time and also got social security benefits for several of those kids because their parents had died. He could have went this route, but he refused. There is even more to the story than that because there was sexual abuse involved as well. I don't want to open that can of worms though.

As far as my house, I try very hard to keep it neat and tidy but it gets messy all the time. It is a constant work in progress. I have a huge problem with junk mail, papers, etc. and tend to pile them up and when I clean, I stick them away somewhere, maybe in a closet or something. Why I can't throw them away immediately upon receiving them, I don't know. I have started trying harder to do that though.

My house is not spotless by any means. My daughter's room is atrocious. I get tired of telling her to clean it. I feel at 16, she should know. Oh well, you have to pick your battles. I grew up with parents who are real sticklers on keeping everything very clean and neat. On the weekends, I would have to get up at 6:00 am to clean, clean, clean. Never got to sleep late! :(

My best friend thinks my house is soooo clean. I don't feel it is, as a matter of fact I never feel like it's good enough when my parents come to visit. I am very self conscious about it not being up to par in their eyes. I have had huge issues with cleaning in the past but at those times, I was severely depressed.

Nessa, did I read somewhere before that you have ADD? I really believe that has a huge impact on cleaning. One of my friends believes she has it too and I wonder if I do sometimes because we talk about how we start to clean and get sidetracked.

For example, I may go into my daughter's room and find a dirty cup, so I take it into the kitchen and put it in the dishwasher, then I see a dirty towel so I think "oh I will go start the laundry" so then I go to gather up other dirty towels from the bathroom and decide "I guess I'll start cleaning the bathroom" and then before I am finished, I see something like a pair of earrings so I go to take them into the bedroom and then I think "wow, I need to dust the dresser" but then the dog needs to go outside so I take him out and decide "oh I need to mow the grass" and there I am on and on wasting so much time. I feel so unorganized.

By the end of the day I am exhausted not to mention that I get so caught up in my mind with analyzing everything that I often get sidetracked with that as well.

Originally posted by whiterose
Yup. Know how you feel. I guess the main reason I posted about my house is to raise awareness that you can't always assume that the reason a person's house is a mess is because of laziness. There are some that are like Melodee's mom's and that's clearly OCD. But, then there are others that are unkempt like mine and it may be due to a physical health problem. Never assume anything. And then are folks like me that just don't want to do it!
(Gotta be honest here).

Yes, when I work long hours, I am very tired when
I get home, but I do get days off and I can't hide behind
that excuse then.
I am one of these people that will blow off washing the
windows to write or cross stitch for a while,
(especially if the kids are all at school and I have some
peace and quiet).
I might even play on the comp or grab my kids and go down
to the beach.
I can always come up with something much better
to do than clean out the fridge or wax the floors.

My mother worked full time and our house was spotless-
we cleaned, (Mom and I), every Saturday morning.
I will admit though, our dining room table was a cluttered
"catch-all" for daily mail and other various papers. Most of the times
you could not even see the surface of that table-
but the rest of the house was very clean.
I was raised with the habit of cleaning as you go-
and my kids and I do that now.
(You make something to eat- you put it all away and
wipe down the counter)
It helps.

So not all of us have a physical condition, (or otherwise),
to justify a not-so-clean house. Some of us are just
not-so-motivated, (lazy).

It's a blessing that I enjoy yard work, as the outside
of our house is pristine.
But stay out of my sewing/craft room-
it might give you a heart attack, (barely room to move
around in there).

I have raised the kids to make their bed daily and they
do well at keeping the floors clear and I do not allow food
in their rooms, (but do find the empty soda cans in there).

It has always bothered me that a woman's worth was
gauged by the way she kept her house.
Peeeeshaw!
It's okay for a man to be a slob, ("poor soul needs a woman"
type attitude), but if a woman allows her house to build up
a fine layer of dust she is labeled unfit.

When my ex complained about something messy
somewhere in the house, I told him to clean it up if
it bothered him that much!
He hated that and no, he wouldn't clean it up.

I clean on my timeline when I feel like it.
If people don't like that, then they don't have to
come into my house.



<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Tempus Sans ITC">Could it be that I never had the chance to grow inside?
Could it be that my habit is to find a place to hide?
Could it be that sometimes I say things just to disagree?
Could it be that I'm only being me?
Not easy living in my mind
a little peace is hard to find
my every thought is undermined
by all the history inside</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=Black FACE="Freestyle Script">Staind</FONT>

Sometimes I don't think there is any good excuse for having a filthy house. Clutter and mess is one thing......filth is another. I know that sometimes I get real lazy and let the cat hair build up along the walls or furniture before I clean it, also I haven't washed the windows in a long time and the blinds are pretty dirty but I know these people who are good friends with our family and they live in complete and total filth and there are always comments made about it by friends and family and I don't think that anyone will ever understand why they live like that. I think the mother has that packrat syndrome but still......they moved into this house 5 years ago and I swear- I don't think the floor has been vacuumed once! It used to be beige carpet and it is black now! There is stuff piled high all over the house collecting nothing but dirt and grime. The toilet which used to be white is now brown. I could go on and on........I love them dearly but I don't agree with the way their house is because I think there is no excuse in their situation and here's why. The mother is disabled with a heart condition so that excuses her from having to do any housework and that's fine but she was like this many years ago before she got sick. Her husband is fine and perfectly capable of cleaning and he actually does so most of the stuff like dishes and laundry but I think he just gets to the point where he gets tired of doing things and nobody else helps out. Her daughter is 29 years old and lives in the home and she is perfectly capable of cleaning and doing housework but she is just plain lazy. So the mother gets medicaid because of her disability. There is a lady that is friends with them that medicaid PAYS to come over and do housework. What she does is beyond me because that house if far from clean when this lady leaves. NOW, the 29 year old daughter who lives there is getting paid by medicaid for doing housework in the home for so many hours a week and do you think she lifts a finger?? NO! They are collecting $$ from the state to have people (including family) clean their house and it is still downright filthy! Another thing is that they rent the house they live in and they have let it get in that condition?? I feel bad for the people that actually own the house if this family would ever move out. The whole thing would have to be mucked out, all the carpet replaced, hours and hours of cleaning, painting, and replacing things that are beyond cleaning. It would cost a good chunk of $$ to get that house looking decent again. So, that's why in some cases I don't think there is any excuse for it.

originally posted by Nessa

tell your friend a couple of great books include

Driven to Distraction
You mean I'm not Lazy Stupid or Crazy

and my all time fav

Adventures in Fast Forward.
tell your friend a couple of great books include


Nessa,

Thanks for the book suggestions. I will definitely tell my friend about them.
__________________________________________

I just had another thought on this subject too...

As far as helping others who may have a problem with cleaning... what if they were completely offended and insulted by your offer.

I was just thinking of me walking into my ex's uncle's house and saying "hey do you need some help cleaning?" I mean, they may not think there is anything out of line about not cleaning. How do you address these issues without insulting and embarrassing someone?

And with mice, roaches and snakes running amuk, a simple cleaning would not do. I don't know, it was just a thought that came through much analyzing... sometimes a little turn off switch on the brain might be nice, lol. :D

I also just wanted to add that there is a child that lives in the home I was talking about and this kid is always sick with so omething from allergies to colds and other things. I really think that one of the reasons this kid is always sick is because of the house and all the dirt and grime not to mention cigarette smoke. That can't be good for ones health....

At one point in my life I kind of just...well lost it. I was having panic attacks and anxiety issues and an abusive relationship..and it was all just overwhelming. My house got really dirty. It was bad enough that it in itself was overwhelming.

I think this is the case for my YM's mom, although she is ABLE BODIED (I know she has no hidden illnesses) and her husband is healthy as well. My impression is also that from day one in her marriage she took responsibility for ALL the housework, etc. to "spoil" her family in effect. I've known these folks for three years almost and the place has always been bad, it's just getting to beyond belief on the last visit.

It's probably an outward sign that things are going from bad to worse in her life. I'd need a dumpster and a week's vacation to even start to help out. Then who says they would maintain it after I'm gone, you know?

Sage and KAS2004, I think there is an element of laziness here, as well. It's like that saying that if you feed a man, he's fed for a day but if you teach him to farm you feed him for a lifetime (or something like that, lol). I've questioned her about enlisting the men to help and her response is always that SHE takes care of HER guys!

*shakes head*

LOL Sally!!!! I remember those quite well. Stupid things. But, thank goodness your great aunt was able to save the day for you. :p

And then on the other side of this-
are the clean freaks that go around sanitizing the kids
and have plastic covering all the furniture.
That can be just as "obsessed" and "not normal"
as living in a pig sty.

I think some people just don't mind a mess-
they don't care.
It's like camping- some people hate it because
"it's dirty and there are bugs".
Hey, I love camping and I don't mind the dirt at all.
I also don't mind a little dirt making it's way into my house.

They are finding now that people are making themselves,
(and their children), sick with using all these
ultra strong cleaning supplies.
We are sanitizing ourselves to death.

I'll take the dirt anyday....



<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Tempus Sans ITC">Could it be that I never had the chance to grow inside?
Could it be that my habit is to find a place to hide?
Could it be that sometimes I say things just to disagree?
Could it be that I'm only being me?
Not easy living in my mind
a little peace is hard to find
my every thought is undermined
by all the history inside</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=Black FACE="Freestyle Script">Staind</FONT>

Nessa,

There's no ADHD in her kids or family. I said there MAY be depression going on. By hidden illnesses I meant that I know she doesn't have physical problems that prevent her OR the other occupants of that house to do some clean up work. Please realize that there are others she could enlist to help her!

I'm trying to gain some understanding here. I don't live this way and until I met Phil, I never met anyone who lived in such a manner. It's something I have never experienced and I'm looking for answers to why things might be that way and what might be done about them.

I live hundreds of miles away, so I can't personally help her. I've talked to her extended family members about helping her on other occasions and their reply is always, they have done as much as they are able and allowed to do.

I'm not a woman who jumps to conclusions. But if I were there, I would step in to help, if I were able. However, I truly feel that if I helped get that place up and running again, it would just devolve into what it was before....

Originally posted by Nessa
Ok remind me not to invite any of you over.

I can't even read all these stories about how dysfuctional and sick I am and how disgusted you all are by my behavior.

Nessa, I don't think that what you're describing is what I was referring to in my posts. In my mother's house, there were narrow pathways all through the house. There was junk piled all the way up to the ceilings on both sides of the narrow pathways and 1-2 feet of dirty clothes all over the floors, covered with dog feces and dog urine. There were maggots all over the kitchen which dropped on my arms as I tried to clean (I went screaming out of the kitchen). The sinks were all piled up and overflowing with rotten food and all kinds of junk. We're talking *sick* Nessa - I wasn't talking about disorganized, messy, ADHD type of stuff (I am disorganized with my ADD and can't ever finish anything, including cleaning) - I (I'm sure some of the others who posted here) am describing a real illness.....something that was so much of a fire hazard that it happened after the first "piling up".....something that was so unhealthy that my mom and her dogs all had staph infections all over! Not all of us were describing just general clutter and dirt. I'm able to be in peoples' homes where there is dirt, clutter, messiness and animals piled up all over - it doesn't faze me in the least; it's not the same as what I was describing here.

Don't feel badly, Nessa. I know how you feel, though. I have a great book about women with ADD. I laughed when I read the part about how one of the biggest symptoms of ADHD in women is that they are afraid for people to visit them at home due to their inability to be organized enough to keep their houses clean (that's me, with my ADD - I can't finish anything - I get sidetracked along the way). Don't worry. I truly doubt that many people would think badly of you because of the condition of your home. If anyone *would* think badly of you, then that person wouldn't be worth having as a friend, anyway.

Originally posted by 1love


For example, I may go into my daughter's room and find a dirty cup, so I take it into the kitchen and put it in the dishwasher, then I see a dirty towel so I think "oh I will go start the laundry" so then I go to gather up other dirty towels from the bathroom and decide "I guess I'll start cleaning the bathroom" and then before I am finished, I see something like a pair of earrings so I go to take them into the bedroom and then I think "wow, I need to dust the dresser" but then the dog needs to go outside so I take him out and decide "oh I need to mow the grass" and there I am on and on wasting so much time. I feel so unorganized.

By the end of the day I am exhausted not to mention that I get so caught up in my mind with analyzing everything that I often get sidetracked with that as well.
LOL, oh.....this is so *me*!! And.......sidetracking a little here.....it reminds me of a thread here where some of us were describing what it's like when we ADD, ADHD women are making love, lol.

Originally posted by Nessa
Why not offer to help the person who clearly is overwhelmed?

Several months ago my ym was having trouble completing a school assignment... he just couldn't do it. I remember looking around his room and thinking to myself "I couldn't do it either... Not in this room... Not on this desk." I offered to help.

A little background here before we get to the actual help. My ym's mom is a complete and total packrat... She didn't set a good example as far as that goes. I love her to death and she has one of the kindest hearts I know. Plus, she raised the man I love, who has inherited a lot of her best traits. I wouldn't diss her here. All I am saying is that she has admited having a problem getting rid of things and it's overwhelming to her to get rid of things. In the past she has recruited friends to help her clear her closet and home office. To give you an idea of the kind of packing we're talking about, they have a large 3-car garage that barely fits 1 car! She has toys and things from the "kids" when were 2 years old... the oldest (my b/f) is now 20. :)

At any rate, all I'm trying to say is that my ym doesn't have the example from his mom, so I thought I would help. For 3 days we worked on his room. We took everything out, probably threw away 3/4's of it... then we deeeep cleaned it (walls, carpeting, windows, blinds, etc.) and painted the room with beautiful custom colors in shades of light blue and an off-blue white. In only 3 days, his room was completely different and had a refreshing new look. I feared he wouldn't maintain it and his room would soon become a big clutter again (although I had also fully accepted that at that point, it would really have been HIS choice). Well, he really liked the new way and how it made him feel - better, less "confused" by the clutter, etc. Several months after the fact, my ym still keeps his room very clean and clutter free. He continues to set an example to his little brother and his mom. Maybe one day they will ask for help or come to a point where they will be open to help.

Nessa, I think people are afraid of volunteering to help (like I was at first) for fear of offending the person. Because they may tell you "help me with what? there's nothing wrong with the way it is now." that type of thing, you know? I was really afraid of suggesting the clean up to my ym and hurting his feelings. It had to come to a point where it was really hurting him for me to have the courage to come forward.

Originally posted by Sage
And then are folks like me that just don't want to do it!

...It has always bothered me that a woman's worth was
gauged by the way she kept her house.

...I clean on my timeline when I feel like it.
If people don't like that, then they don't have to
come into my house.


Sage, just wanted to say, I am totally with you on that ;) My flat is reasonable neat but by no means spotless - but I always despised housework and frankly, like you, I do it when it fits MY schedule , and not the other way round ... -and if I cba to start with ;)

So, sue me ^_^

Here is a suggestion for you...

If you really find the conditions of the home to be unsafe, then why not purchase, as a gift, the services of a cleaning crew for her? BELIEVE me... I do actually know the kind of situation you are describing. I adore my sister, but she's always been sort of not a very organized or clean person. I mean she's very clean with her person, but her house was SCARY and her kitchen would really gross out even the strongest of souls. When she was about to deliver her first baby. My then-husband and I purchased the services of special cleaners. These gals were hard-core and would come in and SERIOUSLY clean/organize really out-of-control places. Granted this was 6 years ago, but we spent about $200.00 for a day's work. The place was in terrific condition and my sister was grateful. She maintained it better than she had. The conditions are definately not my standard, but not dangerous anymore. I think part of the problem is that things are so far beyond one person's resolution. If that isn't their strong suit anyways... defeatism kind of sets in... if that makes sense.

As far as the clean vs unclean debate goes... too much of anything ain't good period. I need (not want... need hehe) things to be orderly and clean (not sanitized daily mind you) in order to think properly and feel in control. When things are unkempt and unclean, it really bothers me and prevents me from feeling at ease in my own space. Therefore, I clean thoroughly once a week and clean as we go daily. However, I have 4 kids. Everyone has chores and I keep it darn organized. Its not too bad, if everyone is on task. We aren't talking about 5 or 6 hours here on a Saturday. We can really thoroughly clean the place in about 2 hours a week.

LOL makes sense to me!