I'm 51, he's 27. I'm freaked out, too.

I'm married. He's single. He's magnificent. My marriage is floudering, although we're trying, but then this just happened. We met at the beach. He's a champ surfer and just as sweet as the day is long. The sex is over the top. As I've read here, I can't understand his attraction to me. I just have never experienced anything like it.

I'm tempted to just drop the whole thing, because I can't sleep, think straight, anything.

I'd give my right arm for him I'm that gonzo. How long does this go on? We met on Thanksgiving day.

Sorry to be so clipped in speech, but am at work.

Thanks all of you!!!

Hit the wrong button. He's 29. That's better. Ha!

Hi there, welcome
Have you been having an affair since Thanksgiving with this man?? Yet you say that in your marriage you are "trying".

Could you expand on this a bit?

Uh huh. You're working on your marriage. It doesn't sound like you're trying very hard if you're having sex with someone else on the side.

Of course everything's so great with this guy. You don't live a real life with him. It's just a fantasy, so it's safe. You don't have real problems with him, and if you have an argument you can always run back home - to your husband.

Give it up and give your marriage the respect it deserves. Don't let flattery and sex destroy what was supposed to be a life-long commitment.

All quite sensible, and that's my plan, to break it off this Wednesday. There hasn't been that much sex, mostly tallking and walking.

I'm just so tired of being picked on every single day about something. When you work and have worked as long as I have and have raised your kids well and when it comes time to have a life that you've planned on and then, I don't know, I've honestly tried to keep my marriage alive, but it takes two, and I've been doing it single-handedly. Honest.

It's been a very long time since my husband even put his arm around me. Ok, I'm lonely, and ok, I'm old enough to know better, but I'm human, too.

BUT, I will drop the sex with this young man. I have to.

Hi abff,

I'm 56 and my husband is 30. We met when I was 52 and he was 26. Your age gap isn't unusual around here and there are plenty of us who are making it work.

Your problem is not your age gap but the fact that you are married and have a new toy. The sex is going to be terrific because you have a crush on him. The hormones that drive a crush are very intense, they settle down once you become an established couple, but at first it can be almost over whelming. What you have to do is back up enough so that your vision stop being clouded by the hormones and take a good look at your situation.

You are cheating on your husband, no way to sugarcoat that fact. As you see from the posts already we have a problem here with that because it's not fair to either of the men in your life. You need to figure out what you want from your marriage. If you want out -- you need to *get* out. Once out you have to decide what to do with your life. If your YM hasn't talked committment by now he may well be having a fling of his own. Do you want to chance losing your marriage for what might be a temporary fling?

You need to think about this long and hard because you are poised to mess up your life if you make the wrong decision.

Peace,
Jane

Ii truly appreciate all your thoughts, but I am definitely not in the market for another commitment. Who would be now? I'm already in a rather precarious position.

But, believe me, I am fully aware of the risks I am taking and whenever I need to feel guilty, I can always call my mother.

My life has been spent 100% taking care of other people and I suppose part of me just wants something that's mine and mine alone. I'm not going to consider this long-term, that would be ridiculous.

My main problem is that I'm enjoying it too much I suppose and, in all fairness, everybody needs someone to talk to. That can't be all wrong.

My husband and I have talked endlessly. He's perfectly content, or so he says. I've pointed out the non-stop criticism, but he says he's just joking around and for me to 'let it go.' He was a coach for almost 30 years and needs somebody else to boss around, I tell him. I've even found phone numbers and contact names for local hockey/golf/softball, so he could get out there with the kids, but he just wants to take his frustrations out on me. He's never been physically mean, but, for instance, the other day I came home from work and he wouldn't stop complaining. I asked him what was wrong and he said, "I just don't like your hair today. Fix it."

That kind of stuff. You know? I just can't handle it much more and have told him so. He knows quite well that we can't afford to get divorced. Not with four kids in various degrees of college/law school, etc. It's impossible. Plus, I'm taking care of his mom and mine, too. It's exhausting, so YES, I do slip away once in a while and sit and have a glass of wine with a lovely young man and YES, we have had sex a few times, but that isn't the only reason I'm in this.

There are just some people you click with all at once and we did. And we continue to, and I promise I'll cut out the sex part, but my one concern is if I completely sever all ties with him, my resentment meter against my husband may sky-rocket.

Ain't love grand and isn't it amazing how busy I am at work!!!!

You guys are really being helpful and I can't tell you how good it feels to let this thing out.

Thanks a million.

If your kids are the reason you can't afford to get divorced, maybe it's time for them to start paying for their own educations. At the very least though, you can get a legal separation if there isn't any way to repair your marriage and you can't get a divorce yet.

Hi Thatgirl -

I'll have to read your story. You sound like someone hurt you pretty badly.

I'm well aware that I'm on something of a suicide mission, but the real bottom line is, there are only so many hours in the day and I don't feel like spending every free moment trying to make my husband something that he's not. As for separating? In So. Cal.? Are you kidding? It's so expensive here, we're lucky we can make it. I've often wondered how many people stay together whether as roommates or marriage partners simply because they cannot afford separate housing.

And we make good money. Really good money. Someone said my generation is the sandwich generation because we're pushed on from both sides. That's true, but it's also true that because we're handling the weight of everyone else, we're drowning, not they.

My mom didn't have to deal with this because my grandmother died at 86. My mother is nearing 90 and will keep going and going. Not that I want anything bad to happen to her, but it's a new phenomenon to have one group of folks taking care of everyone on both sides for this many years. When you think about it, my mom really only had to worry about me for about 21 years. I'm working on over 30 now. My dad died a long, long time ago. That left me. She's got health issues, she's demanding, the whole nine yards. And my husband's mother is 92 and still bugging and calling.

NO, neither of my two college-aged kids can handle it all alone. They're both working and have scholarships. They're good kids, but education costs a fortune.

SO, this brings me back to being able to talk to someone who doesn't need a damn thing from me except my company and he opens my mind again.

What if this happened to be a woman friend that I found (remove the sex). Would anyone curse me for that?

Sorry. Don't mean to vent all over everybody. I can't believe how much of this was bottled up.

Wow; scary

Originally posted by abff
As for separating? In So. Cal.? Are you kidding? It's so expensive here, we're lucky we can make it. I've often wondered how many people stay together whether as roommates or marriage partners simply because they cannot afford separate housing. So how about getting a roommate yourself? Other people manage to do it somehow. It may be difficult and you might not be able to live the way you want to, but at least you'd have your freedom and your integrity, right?NO, neither of my two college-aged kids can handle it all alone. They're both working and have scholarships. They're good kids, but education costs a fortune. Yep, education's expensive (don't I know it). But many people pay for it themselves or take out loans for at least part of it. Regardless, that's not necessary for a simple separation, only a suggestion if you did want to get a formal divorce and couldn't afford it otherwise.

BTW, I thought there were four college aged kids?What if this happened to be a woman friend that I found (remove the sex). Would anyone curse me for that? That wouldn't be the same situation at all. This is a man you are sexually attracted to and who is sexually attracted to you. Even if you're not having sex with him it's an emotional affair because of the nature of your relationship with him and the secretiveness involved.

I wish you the best in sorting out this situation, but you are going to have to find a way to make some kind of change.

WOW!!!

I have so many problems with what you have said.

First off, I am offended that you would consider it ridiculous to have a long term committed relationship with a young man. I am married to one that is 12 years younger and in August we will have been together for 4 years. It is not ridiculous.

Many of the wonderful people on this board are in relationships that are longer than that and their age gap is larger.

I was in a "floundering" marriage also. YOU CAN NOT TURN TO ANOTHER MAN TO FIX IT. All the divorce papers were filed before I ever even went out with my young man. And no, nobody would criticize you for "talking" to a girlfriend unless you were sleeping with her too. You may think you will stop the sex, you won't. You can't. As long as you continue to see him you will have sex, the line has already been crossed.

Your children. You want to give them an education but I guess you don't care how finding out that their mother is having an affair will affect them. My father cheated, I hated knowing that my mother put up with it for "our" sake.

My mother has congestive heart failure, kidney failure and has dementia and takes alot of time. Do I get frustrated? Yes. It is tough and I understand that. But all she did for me all these years amounts to so much more than I can do for her now. Don't use your elderly mother or mother-in-law as an excuse for your affair.

I understand being lonely in a marriage, you can't believe how much I can understand. BUT---if you are not going to divorce then (not my idea of a good idea) perhaps you and your husband want to consider an open marriage. If he doesn't care that you are seeing someone else then I guess you could go on. But being married and hiding your fling is just not right.

You are swamped with problems and are only going to get more with this situation.

Actually, I did consider a roommate and have no problem with that. It would just take time, I suppose. It would be awfully hard on the boys. (two are in college, two on the verge. The eldest is on his own/school/job, the other in law school and has scholarships coming out of his ears, but it still costs $40k/year - we're all at least $250k in debt.) But, at least I'll have a lawyer in the family when I need one!

I don't know. Maybe this all happened for the best to create a crisis to make change. Little did I know how unhappy I was until this happened.

I'm a big girl. I'll figure it out somehow. If there's one thing I have learned in all of this is that good times end, but so do the bad ones.

I expected a lot of criticism here and am certainly not disappointed. I meant no harm at all when I mentioned that considering a long-term relationship with this man was ridiculous. It IS ridiculous - for me right now. If I wasn't married, that would be a whole different issue. He's a very good, sweet friend - sex aside. And, sorry, but yes I can stop the sex and be just friends with him. Yes, I can.

It was the friendship first, not the sex. I have many friends with men that I've been intimate with over the years. My husband and I have only been married for 10 years. My sons are mine alone. They have no father, legally. I raised them myself. Their father passed away a long, long time ago and my children would stand by me no matter what I did or didn't do.

What I don't want to do is upset their lives anymore. I just want one, a small corner of one, for myself. If that's wrong, so be it.

But, I will take everything that everyone has said very seriously. I know what's right and wrong, but there is a grey area to life that cannot be ignored.

Thanks for all your help. I mean that.

If you are aware that you are on a suicide mission, what do you want from us??

You breeze in and tell us you are shagging this gorgeous young thing and that you are stepping out on your husband to do so. Now you don't much like the fact that the responses you got aren't just peach keen on that kind of behavior. Sorry, you get what we have to give and it isn't support for cheating. Too many of us have been there, on both sides of the fence and we know that it only leads to heartache.

This is a *relationship* forum geared to supporting people who are in or hope to be in a serious relationship where there is a difference in ages. We don't deal in flings or boy toys..just in good men who happen to be younger than we are. You can, of course, do as you choose, but you aren't going to get supported for it here. Sorry...but we aren't that kind of people.

We will, however, support working on what sounds like an abusive marriage, getting a separation or a divorce and getting on with fixing what is wrong with your life. This hot young man is only going to complicate things, not make them better. You need to get your act together before it blows up. If your husband complains about your hair I wouldn't want to be around when he finds out about your YM.

I would suggest that you go to counseling, by yourself if necessary, and decide what you want out of life. I couldn't afford a divorce either, but my marriage was going down the tubes before I met Dave and I killed it dead before I went any further. He and I have been paying off my debts for the last 4 years and have a couple more to go before we are in the clear. He took me on 26 years his senior, up to my ears in debt and miserable because I'd been so badly betrayed by my husband. This is the kind of man you want in your life...not just some fling.

Good luck, I have a hunch you are really going to need it.

Peace,
Jane

I came here because I have never been involved with someone so much younger than I and I was looking for some input.

Whether I am married or not really isn't the issue.

I'm sorry if I made you angry, which was not my intent. I didn't realize that I was in the wrong place, which I obviously am.

Judging people isn't really attractive either.

Originally posted by abff
Whether I am married or not really isn't the issue. That's exactly the issue. As long as you're living as a married couple you have a responsibility to maintain the comittment you made. Your reluctance to change and rationalization of this situation indicates that you don't see infidelity as much of a problem, but many of us do. I think trying to pretend this has nothing to do with your marital status indicates a low level of respect for the institution of marriage and the comittment attached to it.

Originally posted by abff

Whether I am married or not really isn't the issue.



Abff, I'm not going to judge you. That's not my job nor my right. However, if you had not wanted people to comment on the status of your marriage, you probably should never have mentioned at all that you are married. Because, clearly, your marriage definitely is the real issue. If your marriage was on stable ground, would you ever have gone to bed with the surfer in the first place?

You say that you already know what you need to do with the relationship with the man you're having an affair with, so like the others, I am confused as to what exactly you were looking for from us here.

:confused:

You're absolutely right. I don't think infidelity is the biggest crime here. Being unkind, rude, belittling, lacking compassion, warmth, and understanding are much larger crimes. God reads hearts, not documents. And the last time I checked that was the only force that has the right to judge.

I've learned a lot more here than I ever dreamed possible. I accept each and every one of your points of view and respect them. To not receive it in return says a lot about your individual commitment to people in general.

And as for my marriage - that's my business, and I'll deal with it in my own time. You could've really helped someone here, and you didn't.

I'm sorry I bothered you. I really am, and I wish you all the best. But, be warned, with that much of a holier-than-thou attitude, I'd be careful who might turn their back on you some day. I'm living proof.

Abff, as I said in my post, I was unclear exactly what type of advice, help, or support you were needing from us. I was hoping for some clarification. I'm sorry that you are upset that people don't agree with the choice you are making. I would have liked to offer you support, but I just did not understand exactly what you were looking for.

I hope that everything works out the best way possible for all involved.

Wait a second. I''m not angry. I've got people with big asterisks and beware of criticism and I'm taking it all in, really. Anger isn't something I do, but I'm sorry, there are some people with amazing amounts of judgmental attitudes and, if you read the specific instructions from the moderator, respect and politeness are expected.

Whether or not people agree with me is absolutely irrelevant. All input is gratefully accepted. Telling me how to behave seems a bit unnecessary.

What I am really trying to find here is how people handle the age difference in any relationship, whether it's sexual or not. I'm finding it to be really interesting, and as a professional writer, that's what I do - experience things. The Pump House Gang is one of my most favorite books on the early surfing culture, and I think it would be a fascinating topic to take up again. They are such extreme people who believe strongly in personal freedom.
And interesting people to talk to, BUT the age difference seems to bother me more than he. He doesn't even seem to notice it.

That's interesting to me but a little uncomfortable. SO, what I'd really like to know is what sort of problems or issues have you had with this much of an age spread, woman vs man. When the man is considerably older it seems more accepted. This does not. Whenever we go anywhere, I am often asked if I am his mother and that is a little unsettling, but I suppose that's to be expected.

Does this help clear things up?

Thanks - you are a voice of reason.

In a perfect world, every woman is faithful to her husband, and vice versa. In the real world, sometimes pain and hurt cause otherwise decent people to do things they wouldn't even have imagined.

I of course don't condone cheating, but come on. Give this woman a break.

I hate that self-righteous BS.

This is my last post on this thread.

You brought HIM up. God that is. I think, if you check, there is a commandment "THOUGH SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTRY". So yes, he has the right to judge you.

We are not judging you, we are merely pointing out the obvious problems with this situation and the age gap is not the problem.

I think I'll leave now. I must say two things before I go, though:

1. Many thanks to the people who, because they were afraid, sent private emails and were kind and helpful. The rest of you - how do you feel about making people that intimidated? I mean it.

2. Those of you who took unnecessary steps to be cruel and threatening in private emails - I'll turn them over to the moderator if they continue.

Thank you -

Thanks for clarifying specifically the type of advice you were looking for.

My age gap isn't as large as yours, but it's close. I am 18 years older than my fiance, Remi. I don't like it when people ask me if he is my son, but I simply correct them if they do.

But, like you, the age gap bothered me alot at first, too. Then I came here and found many women in the same situation as me. Finding a support network really helped me.

What I found matters most is how he and I feel about each other. I try to focus more on that and less on the age difference. But, every now and then it's still difficult. I worry about whether he'll leave me for someone younger one day or whether he'll leave me because I cannot have, or do not want, any more children. But, one thing that he reinforces to me all the time is that it's better to focus on the happiness that we have together because happiness is fleeting. He and I would rather focus on what we have with each other than worry what may happen 20 years from now.

It's a little difficult for me to relate to your experience because Remi and already know what we want from each other. We plan to marry and have already made a commitment to not let our age difference become an issue in our relationship.

Probably as time goes by and you are more sure what you want out of your relationship with both him and your husband, things will become more clear for you.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I saw your last post. I don't believe that anything I have posted here to you was intimidating in any way. I also don't feel that anything the other posters said was intimidating or threatening in any way either.

Your own words were that you came here fully expecting to receive reactions to the fact that you are married. Yet you leave here acting like you are surprised. :confused:

Again, good luck to you Abff, and to the other parties involved.

Whiterose, this is what has been the most frustrating today. Miscommunication. The threats and really, major kindnesses, came to me through private emails, not posted.

But, if you don't see the judgment on the postings to me, then I really have no business here. This is about open communication, and problem solving, and most of you have been great, but the whole issue got clouded up over my marriage. That wasn't what I wanted to discuss, and it's totally my error and I bow out gracefully.

Now, I mean no offense, but I goofed up by not paying more attention to the personality of this board and have wasted a lot of people's time, without intent.

I wish all of you the best.

Thank you -

Originally posted by abff
SO, what I'd really like to know is what sort of problems or issues have you had with this much of an age spread, woman vs man. When the man is considerably older it seems more accepted. This does not. Whenever we go anywhere, I am often asked if I am his mother and that is a little unsettling, but I suppose that's to be expected.


I have stayed away from this thread, because it is no secret on this board my feeling about stepping out on a marriage.

As to your above question: Joe and I have close to the same gap as you . . . our is 25-1/2 years . . . and we have been together more than a year now. Personally, we have experienced no problems whatsoever with the age difference. Our perspective on that is as long as we are both okay with it and have no problem with it, who cares a fig what anybody else thinks.

Yes, it has been accepted for centuries that it's okay for old men to go after very young women and that is all changing in our day and time. In fact, it is a very frequent occurrence these days to see older women with much younger men. There is nothing wrong with it as long as everyone involved is of legal age and all parties are on the same page.

Can't leave without saying this tho. If all you wanted here was to gain some insight as to the age gap factor and how it is dealt with by those of us living it, you should have left out all references to your marital status. We have had a horde of women lately coming on here telling us that they are married and are having flings with these young men that they have met and making all kinds of excuses about why it is not wrong that they are committing adultry.

You will find that most of the people on this board are people of integrity and have strong opinions about that. You can call it judging or you can call it voicing our opinions . . . but if someone tells us they are married and cheating, they are most likely going to hear some VERY strong opinions about that.

If the fact that you are married had nothing to do with your original post, I am at a complete loss as to why you included that information in your post. Why not just ask us what you wanted to know? :confused:

Originally posted by abff

But, if you don't see the judgment on the postings to me, then I really have no business here. This is about open communication, and problem solving

That's what we're trying to do. Problem solve.

The thing is, you want to divide your situation up into little pieces and only look at the bits that don't involve your marriage.

The weakness with that approach is that you can't solve the problems you're having without dealing with the whole picture. Everything that's happening affects everything else, and everyone involved. You can't compartmentalize your situation that stringently, ignore a large part of the equation, and expect to solve anything.

I've read over your posts and you seem to want to rationalize why you're cheating. You won't even admit it's destructive to your marriage.

Even if you no longer sleep with your surfer guy, you're still emotionally distancing yourself from your marriage.
How do you reasonably expect to work on your marriage if you aren't emotionally committed to it or honest about what's going on?

I'm sorry if this sounds judgemental, but you seem to be in serious denial about your own responsibilities in this issue. You aren't being honest and you aren't being fair to anyone -- including your surfer guy. I realize marriage is a two-way street and your husband isn't pulling his weight, but that means that you two should seek counselling and try to fix what's broken.

If you're serious about mending the marriage, I'd avoid seeing your new young man altogether while you make an honest effort to reconnect with your husband. If your YM is truly a friend, he'll understand.

Originally posted by abff
Whiterose, this is what has been the most frustrating today. Miscommunication. The threats and really, major kindnesses, came to me through private emails, not posted.

Well I for one am confident that I was not being judgmental with you Abff. Your situation hits very close to home for me and yet I kept my emotions out of my posts. I have been working very hard at this despite the rash of posters who come here in the midst of an adulterous relationship.

But, here's what gets me... for those who PM'd you voicing apparent kindnesses to you, I wish that they would post publicly so that there is a balanced viewpoint represented on the boards. This is not the first time this has happened.

I don't know why they're afraid to speak up publicly. This is cyberspace for crying out loud -- not real life. I'm not sure if they are intimidated by the more outspoken women on the board, or if they are ashamed of their opinions, or what the heck would be the reason that they would PM you rather than post their opinions publicly.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sending a PM! I'm talking about failing to post opinions publicly. When those who apparently support you only privately, fail to post their support of you publicly, their opinions exist in the shadows and are therefore never known by the public. This leaves the voices of the majority as the ones that most people will be hearing from. It causes an imbalance of representation of opinions on the boards.

Without the opinions of those in support of you posted publicly, then naturally those who do seem to be in the majority that are speaking up are made to look bad simply because they voice their honest opinions with posters who are in the midst of an adulterous relationship.

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion here and it's too bad that some won't post their opinion publicly because everybody's opinion matters.

I will now step down from my soapbox. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Oh, and about threats, I sure hope that you reported any threatening PM's you feel you have received to the moderators. We do not tolerate confirmed, threatening behavior.

Abff, I'm 51 and my husband is 24. We don't have any problems with the age difference, except for the fact that he'd love to have a baby and I think I'm too old....also, he feels sad that he most likely won't have as many years with me as he would with a woman closer to his age. Our relationship is beautiful and we're deeply in love, and both of us say that we're happier than we've ever been in our lives. So....it is possible for a large age-gap relationship to work.

Your husband sounds verbally abusive. You're trying to get the attention/acceptance you need from another man. It doesn't seem like it now, but it will most likely cause even more devastation and stress in your life in the long run. It feels good to have a release value for your stress, but it will most likely cost you plenty. If you could find a way to deal with the issues that are causing your marriage not to work, you would be much better off. If not, those same issues could reappear in later relationships.

I hope that things work out for you. I'm sorry that you felt attacked here. There are many people here who have witnessed the destruction of adultery/cheating first hand. I don't think that they're trying to be holier-than-thou; I think that they're trying to prevent someone else from going through the certain pain and sadness that will ensue if you continue on the course you're on. Please don't take it personally; the people here are great people. I truly think they just want to help. If they were judgmental, narrow-minded people, I doubt they'd be in these ow/ym relationships. Give this group a chance. I hope you decide to stay and post more.

Another newbie burned at the stake...

:(

Did some of us really threaten this COMPLETE STRANGER in pms? Who the heck are we? Let SHE who is without sin cast the first stone...........

Didn't our mother's teach us better? Me thinks NONE of us would be this judgemental and harsh in real life to strangers.

I sincerely and strongly encourage you to forward each and every nasty, hate-filled PM to mods and I sincerely hope that anyone sending those will be contacted and admonished.

We need to be the kind, well-meaning people we were meant to be, don't we folks?

Originally posted by marcy
Another newbie burned at the stake...

:(

Did some of us really threaten this COMPLETE STRANGER in pms? Who the heck are we? Let SHE who is without sin cast the first stone...........

Didn't our mother's teach us better? Me thinks NONE of us would be this judgemental and harsh in real life to strangers.

I sincerely and strongly encourage you to forward each and every nasty, hate-filled PM to mods and I sincerely hope that anyone sending those will be contacted and admonished.

We need to be the kind, well-meaning people we were meant to be, don't we folks?

Amen, Marcy. Threatening someone is just plain bad taste. And unnecessary to boot.

I was kind of saddened to read that. :(

Abff,

My heart goes out to you.

I don't condone cheating, but if this affair is your way to crawl out of an abusive relationship, then my opinion is go for it....do whatever it takes to get out. I don't have ANY sympathy for abusive men, and I think you need to be taking care of yourself right now. Your affair is putting an end to your isolation, and its reminding of your value. I fear that without this connection outside your abusive marriage, you will prolong the pain, damage, and destruction your husband is inflicting apon you. This is not what I'd normally recommend, but in your case I'd strongly consider holding onto the relationship with your new lover and friend. You don't owe any loyalty to an abusive man.

Originally posted by thatgirl
I'm sorry if I sound stupid, but I still don't understand.

Threaten someone via PM or E-mail? What could possibly be said?

:confused:
thatgirl

"To utter threats against; to menace; to inspire with apprehension; to alarm, or attempt to alarm, as with the promise of something evil or disagreeable; to warn."

I can conceive of things written in a PM or e-mail that fit the above. Regardless... why would anyone treat another human being this way? Especially a stranger reaching out to one for help?

Originally posted by whiterose
But, here's what gets me... for those who PM'd you voicing apparent kindnesses to you, I wish that they would post publicly so that there is a balanced viewpoint represented on the boards. This is not the first time this has happened.

I don't know why they're afraid to speak up publicly. This is cyberspace for crying out loud -- not real life. I'm not sure if they are intimidated by the more outspoken women on the board, or if they are ashamed of their opinions, or what the heck would be the reason that they would PM you rather than post their opinions publicly.

I sent the OP a kind PM this morning after I read her initial post. I did not post to her publically as I did not really feel I had anything meaningful to add. My situation is hardly relatable to hers. I don't think I'm intimidated at all (as anyone hanging here for any length of time can attest to ;)). I am not ashamed of my opinion at all. I simply wanted to welcome her and warn her that women posting about extra-marital relationships are NOT usually welcomed with open and supportive arms. Ain't no secret there lord knows! Looking back on it... I wish I had posted this here this morning instead of sending the PM.

I do not understand why we cannot offer advice without insinuating that someone is bad or wrong...

Only those who sent her PM's really know what was said to her in PM. I sure hope no one actually threatened her. That doesn't sound like people we all know around ageless, does it? We can only hope that if she was threatened that she reported the PM to a moderator immediately so the situation can be handled appropriately.

Originally posted by marcy
I do not understand why we cannot offer advice without insinuating that someone is bad or wrong... I read it all the time here and Pinkcat said it best... this self-righteous stuff is crap. Its disgusting really.

I don't know why it's so surprising that the majority of people are opposed to extra-marital affairs. We all have our opinions about it. Why is it that those who are opposed are labeled "self righteous?" I don't mean to sound sarcastic. I am seriously confused about this. Seems every time someone posts their opinions about this they are labeled. Quite honestly, sometimes there is so much political correctness in this world that I truly wonder if anyone can speak their opinion without criticism.

:confused:

Originally posted by whiterose
I truly wonder if anyone can speak their opinion without criticism.

In a word... no. If you speak it (or in this case type it), someone's going to comment and be critical. Just ask Abff.

I'm glad that this forum doesn't support extra-marital affairs. Marriage is supposed to mean something, after all.

However I personally draw the line when it comes to a person who is being abused. These people owe nothing to their spouses...the abusive spouse long broke the marriage vows when they used their partner's love and trust to demoralise them to the point where they feel too worthless and incompetent to leave the relationship. `Love ' `honour' `cherish' `respect' are also words used in marriage vows. Its not just about fidelity.

The cheating, abused partner is not simply avoiding an issue, treating the marriage vows lightly, or acting on a whim...they are usually desparately trying to survive a complex situation where often they have put super-human effort into the survival of the marriage already.....the abuse, however, often results in a situation where the victim has become overly dependent, isolated, and had their self-esteem sytematically destroyed by the spouse they trusted. The changes needed to get out of such a marriage by th victim are overwhelming. The victim isn't strong.

My only point being that a black and white approach may not be best when judging these situations.

I sincerely hope the OP is not being abused by her husband. And I am truly sorry that she is unhappy in her marriage.

But one thing none of us know is her husband's side of the story. :(

Originally posted by whiterose
I sincerely hope the OP is not being abused by her husband. And I am truly sorry that she is unhappy in her marriage.

But one thing none of us know is her husband's side of the story. :(

Exactly, Whiterose. We only have one side of the story (hers), and we don't know how balanced or honest it is.

I don't think we have enough information to state definitively that their marriage is an abusive one. I think we can safely say it's in trouble, but personally I only see evidence of two emotionally distant people who aren't happy in their marriage.

While unfortunate, that hardly qualifies as abuse. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bella_D
I'm glad that this forum doesn't support extra-marital affairs. Marriage is supposed to mean something, after all.

Thank you Bella!!! I certainly don't feel self-righteous because I don't condone cheating in any shape, form or fashion. And there is absolutely NO excuse for it.

However I personally draw the line when it comes to a person who is being abused. These people owe nothing to their spouses...the abusive spouse long broke the marriage vows when they used their partner's love and trust to demoralise them to the point where they feel too worthless and incompetent to leave the relationship. `Love ' `honour' `cherish' `respect' are also words used in marriage vows. Its not just about fidelity.

I also draw the line at abuse. But if a person is being abused, then they need to end the marriage and get out. It is still not an excuse or a valid reason to cheat.

My only point being that a black and white approach may not be best when judging these situations.

You may be right, but in my opinion, adultery is adultery regardless of the reasons behind it. You know, I was asked by a friend right after my divorce if I had ever cheated on my ex. I stated that I had not. Then my friend stated that I could be honest. I told my friend that I was being honest. I had never even thought about cheating on my ex. My friend said that I had every right to since the ex cheated on me. Right? I don't think so. What right? In the end, I have to be able to live with myself and face myself in the mirror every day and when the true end comes, I have to be able to face my maker.

So, yes, I have very strong opinions on this subject, and I am entitled to those opinions, having walked in those shoes. I honestly can't imagine going onto a message board where I don't know anyone and posting something as controversial as this subject and assuming that they would give me the thumbs up on my actions. I would have expected to be flamed royally from the onset.

Originally posted by abff
.. God reads hearts, not documents. And the last time I checked that was the only force that has the right to judge.
...
For what it's worth, I do agree with that - so, in that sense, I do not see any need to assess the state of your marriage - just on a side note, I do find it interesting that the "old testament" revanchist attitude among many "Christians" very often seems so much more prevalent than the much more forgiving new testamental stuff - but hey, then I am protestant (Lutherian) ;)

Anyway, as for the age issue at hand, it's indeed easy to freak out - my b/f is 20 to my 36; and I still freak out regularly about it - but then, in our case it's not just about sex; we met online, so we were attracted to each other as "people" first, before even setting eyes on each other ...

But yeah, I still I have more "issues" with our age gap than he has - and it doesn't seem like this agegap issue is any problem for his friends either (even though often they do assume it's just for "sex only"). But none of these issues involve doubting my b/f or the sincerity of his feelings, it's more about me and my family ... The comforting thing about this site here is, actually, that you can see that relationships of this kind CAN actually work ... So, in that sense it has made it much easier for my b/f and me to actually take the leap and give "us" a chance ...

And it's also interesting to see from many of the "ym" on this site (whatever their age) that they are not necessarily all into it for a fling, but a real commitment ... - even though this doesn't seem to be on the agenda for you for obvious reasons, I think that's a concept to keep in mind ... ;)

I would like to remind those who send PMs to fellow members that being rude or threatening in PMs is also breaking the rules and reason for banning.

Be polite if you can't be kind, disagree without calling names or insulting; the mentionned threats will be looked into.

I definitely agree with WhiteRose, Scarlet, and Peachy. All we know about her marriage is that he made a rude comment about her hair. And from this everyone assumes she's being horribly abused? Even if there is emotional abuse that's no excuse for infidelity (which IMO is just another form of emotional abuse) for the reason Peachy stated.

If it's self-righteous to offer a critical opinion, isn't it also self-righteous to criticize those opinions because they're not supportive enough? No one should be insulted just because they don't subscribe to political correctness or moral relativism.

Every person who posted in the beginning of this thread was trying their best to help, but it became obvious that our suggestions for leaving her husband or fixing her marriage weren't wanted. Her only question was how long the affair was going to last. Here's the short answer: until her husband finds out. If you think he's abusive now, just wait.

I've taken my time in reading this thread....

First off, I didn't see anyone in public, who was threatening or abusive or rough towarrds the original poster in any way, shape or form.

And, I'm sorry, but I really doubt whether those kinds of private messages were sent. Now, if I was shown proof of the contrary, I would eat my crow, lightly fried in beer batter, in public. But....in my heart, I don't think there are any posters here...that would resort to threatening and abusive PM's on a person who has just joined the board. Unless, the person's that sent these Private Messages are lurkers who do not hardly post (if at all)...and if that is the case, they do not necessarily represent the "tone" and behavior of this site...

Last point....it seems anymore, when a situation like this poster's (or near to it) comes about....it's always the same. They have thier minds made up about the situation. They aren't really looking for support or advice. Simply, what they are looking for is validation for thier actions. And with these kind of actions....you are not going to receive validation from many (if any) of the posters on this forum...

I may be wrong though, and if I am...I'll eat that grow. Just pour me a whiskey sours and a side of rice pilaf...

~Dan

Where are the village stocks when you need them? (but for whom??)
Regards
River

Originally posted by Dan_Shues
Last point....it seems anymore, when a situation like this poster's (or near to it) comes about....it's always the same. They have thier minds made up about the situation. They aren't really looking for support or advice. Simply, what they are looking for is validation for thier actions. And with these kind of actions....you are not going to receive validation from many (if any) of the posters on this forum...

I may be wrong though, and if I am...I'll eat that grow. Just pour me a whiskey sours and a side of rice pilaf...

~Dan

I tend to agree Dan that there is a pattern.

First a poster gives us bits and pieces of information. Often it's unclear whether they are needing advice, support, are venting, just want to chat, etc.

Then, we find out he/she is married and having an affair.

Then, because we are unclear what the poster is asking for, we begin to offer advice. People start giving their honest opinions about the impact the extra-marital affair will have on the person's life and relationships (including both the spouse and the extra-marital partner).

Then the poster becomes upset because they are not hearing the words they want to hear. Often these same people even admit they expected that kind of response, yet they still revealed that they are married anyway -- so I'm never clear why they are surprised at the reactions they receive.

Then the OP says their goodbyes.

Then those who feel that some of the members here have been too hard on the newbie come out of the woodwork and begin criticizing those who have already voiced their opinions of being self-righteous or judgmental.

Then, we all fight and argue for a few days about the issue.

Then it dies down until next time.

We could just plug in a tape recorder and the same sequence of events happen each time.

I sincerely tried my best to remain objective with this poster. There are many things I was thinking that I did not express to her. I don't want to scare anyone off. I don't want to give the impression that I am being judgmental. But, I do have opinions and I don't like being labeled when I express my opinions either.

To me there's a big difference between giving someone advice/opinions when they come asking for it and labelling someone for offering their honest opinion. The two situations are different in my view. For example, this OP came here and clearly said, "I'm married, I'm trying to make it work, but I'm having an affair." I am unclear why she, or anyone else, would be shocked that others who responded to her thread would say, "Isn't that a contradictory statement?" But, then the person who responded is now being labeled as "self-righteous".

I agree that there's honesty, and then there's honesty with sarcasm and insult. The latter should never be tolerated here. I believe we should all be able to give honest feedback in an objective manner as possible. We should always treat everyone with dignity and respect, including when we want to respond to the opinions already posted by another member of this board.

I'm just a little bit tired of these kinds of issues coming up all the time and dividing our group. Maybe what I need to do is stop trying to offer help to newbies because right now I feel that nothing I say is right. It has gotten to the point where I am reluctant to even ask a new member questions to try and understand what they are trying to convey because each time, this is the type of situation that happens. But, if I fail to respond to a thread, I feel that I'm being perceived as being non-supportive. It's such a catch-22.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

:confused:

Originally posted by whiterose
Then those who feel that some of the members here have been too hard on the newbie come out of the woodwork and begin criticizing those who have already voiced their opinions of being self-righteous or judgmental.
Then, we all fight and argue for a few days about the issue.
Then it dies down until next time.

This is exactly why I stayed out of this thread,
(till now).
I have been slapped on the wrist too many times
for blasting these type of posters.

Loved Dan's post by the way...
<img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/excuseme.gif">




<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Originally posted by Nessa
how i live my life has to be acceptable for brian and me not for whiterose and remi or joe and peachy.... but for nessa and brian. I don't expect you to all approve of how we live but you know what you guys are my friends and i'm your friend and we support each other to the best of our abilities.

Well said Nessa... to me... that is the key right there.

Originally posted by Nessa
how i live my life has to be acceptable for brian and me not for whiterose and remi or joe and peachy.... but for nessa and brian. I don't expect you to all approve of how we live but you know what you guys are my friends and i'm your friend and we support each other to the best of our abilities.

Exactly! And if you post that you need an opinion, I bet you are like me in that you'll "take what you need and leave the rest."

It's rare that I ever need advice or support here, but if I do need it and ask for it, I am fully prepared to receive all kinds of responses. Some I will agree with. Some I don't. It's up to me to weed out what I feel I don't agree with or need. I don't expect the troops to rally behind me and come to my defense. I'm a grown up and can do that all by myself. At the end of the day, I am the one who has to live with myself and my choices/decisions. I don't live my life based upon what the world thinks of me.

:)

Originally posted by Sage
This is exactly why I stayed out of this thread,
(till now).
I have been slapped on the wrist too many times
for blasting these type of posters.



When you say you've "blasted" someone, that to me sounds like when someone is being super harsh and critical of someone else.

I don't pay enough attention to what everyone else is doing, but are you really doing that Sage? Or, are you just offering your honest opinion? In other words, are you trying to give honest feedback while still protecting the feelings of the OP? Because that's what I feel we should all be doing.

I also think that some of those that come here with
their situations don't read as much here as they claim-
or they would know where we stand on the issues of
infidelity.

I think also because we are "AgelessLove",
(Ooooo-La-La!)-
they assume that we are a "free-thinking,
anything goes" type forum that will applaud the union
of an OW with a YM no matter what.
Obviously not the case


<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Originally posted by whiterose
When you say you've "blasted" someone, that to me sounds like when someone is being super harsh and critical of someone else.
I don't pay enough attention to what everyone else is doing, but are you really doing that Sage? Or, are you just offering your honest opinion? In other words, are you trying to give honest feedback while still protecting the feelings of the OP? Because that's what I feel we should all be doing.

Well, you know me well enough Katrina-
do I blast people or do I just tell it like it is?

I'm not rude to the extent of being insulting
to the person-
but I'll clear the smoke out of the room real quick.


<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Thanks Whiterose, thanks Sage...*smiles*

I agree, Whiterose...it does split the board up. And it's stupid that we are launching at one another's throats. I mean, it's pretty clear that most of us have certain feelings about certain subjects. Whether it's extra marital affairs...children (either from previous marriage or having children)....and the like. And many times...I've seen these idea's almost be able to fuse together...

They may not be identical, mind you....but, alot of us have the same basic idea's...it's just how they've been cultivated in our lives, which make them different...

And Nessa is very right. We all live our lives differently. We all have different lifestyles. What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for the others. But, when it all boils down to it....we are here for the same reason. And we all try to give support to others..based upon our experiences. That is what is nice about this board...you get so many points of view, so many different angles...in the answers to one problem.

Thatgirl, you have very valid points, there! I never thought about them like that before....

As I've always said...."The best advice that can be given is not what you want to hear...but rather, what you *NEED* to hear."

~Dan

I have also learned to watch these kinds of
threads for a bit before jumping in with my profound advice.

Too many times the "whole story" isn't presented and
we get information in little drips and dribbles.

Yeah, I'm quick to reprimand anyone having an affair-
but is that unreasonable?
I do try to express my opinion in a dignified manner-
but I am not going to candy coat it.

Sure I want the person to think about their actions
and do the "right thing"-
but I am not a hand holder here, nor am I going to
spoon feed someone what they want to hear, (read).

Let me tell ya if you choose to play with fire,
it's not me that you have to worry about burning you.
I'll place the mirror right up in your face....



<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Dan, you are quite right -- she came for validation, like the last one I remember who was married and actively seeking YM for sex. When they aren't validated they get mad. I'm puzzled why the people who want validation for sexual escapades outside of marriage don't post on more appropriate forums. They don't bother to read the existing posts, blather away about what they are doing and then squall like a scalded cat when they find out we don't much care for cheating.

I'm of the opinion -- if you can't take the heat...stay out of the kitchen.

I will do like I've done for the last 5 years. I will try to extract the meaning and the intention from the post and then reply with both negative and positive (if possible) statements. If they don't like what I say, it's only a *free* opinion posted on a web page...ignore me and move along...

I see others here doing exactly the same thing that I do and then worrying when the person gets all pissy about not being agreed with. We ALL welcome newbies and treat them very kindly *when we can.* If she came in saying she was worried about her marriage, or her children, or her husband, or the YM we would have responded much differently. There is a world of difference between saying you are married and cheating and wanting to know how long the affair will last -- and realizing you are in a difficult situation and wondering how to handle it.

Whiterose, you are exactly right with your take on the sequence of events. The only thing you can do is -- don't play. Post if you feel you have something to contribute, but refuse to get sucked into their anger at not being agreed with, or the tendency of some others to think anyone we don't agree with is being abused. It's all you can do.

Peace,
Jane

Do we really, honestly believe that a person coming here and posting immediately that they are cheating doesn't know its bad?! Do fat people know they are fat? Or do they need a thin person to tell them so? Thank goodness we are here to hold up the mirror of wrong-doings... otherwise nobody would ever know it right?

And I guess I am one that constantly wants to know WHY fire must equal support, but its because I truly do not understand why we feel free to do this. Is that how we guide and support our children? I am not this cruel to real life people ... NO FREAKING WAY... but its OK to be the holder of the mirror of truth because we're virtual right?

frustrating...

Definitely there is a difference between being cruel and just expressing honest feedback. It's all in the approach. We must all play nice. The forum rules state that we need to be polite and courteous when replying to people's opinions that we do not agree with. I didn't see anyone yesterday being cruel to this poster. I saw alot of honest opinions being given, but I did not see any cruelty or bashing going on.

I think that the rules about being polite and courteous when replying to other people's opinions also applies when the members of the community are labelling others self-righteous. Labelling someone is a dig and is offensive and needs to stop.

If a friend of mine does something stupid, gets into trouble, and asks for advice, I tell them exactly where they were being stupid. After that's out of the way, we can proceed to the advice.

I'm not advocating rudeness here, but sometimes the truth hurts. Usually it hurts the person most who's trying to run away from it.

So, for me anyway, this isn't just an online attitude. I'll tell you to your face that you're being stupid if that's what it takes, and I hope my friends are honest enough with me to do the same in return.

You can't solve a problem if you're trying to ignore the cause-and-effect that led up to it. If someone wants advice but isn't willing to deal with the whole picture, expects to be handled with kid gloves, and refuses to take responsibility for their actions, then they aren't that serious about solving their problem.

Simple as that.

Marcy, if you are going to tell me you are cheating -- I am going to tell you that someone is going to get hurt. Believe it or not some people can't see beyond their nose and hearing some other points of view is a help. For others it just makes them mad.

And YES fat people sometimes need people to tell them they are fat because it is far to easy to lie to yourself. That's called denial and it hurts you and the people around you.

Sorry, we don't agree. I happen to believe that we DO teach our children by telling them that what they are doing is going to hurt. Do we just smile and let them touch the stove?

Peace,
Jane

I am not the type that as soon as a new member
reveals they are having an affair -
SMACK!

I understand that these things "happen"
and I would rather attempt to "help" this person
resolve the problem.
(As in,...urge them to end the affair or seek out a divorce).

It is when my generous and polite advice
is poo-poo'd and these people come up with a million
and one reasons why they can't get a divorce
and still want the affair-
that is when I get to the point.

They can rationalize their behavior all they want
in a million posts-
but I will always be the type person to hold that
mirror up for them.
It's up to them to see the truth and do something
about it.

I agree with Jane-
if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.





<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Originally posted by whiterose
I think that the rules about being polite and courteous when replying to other people's opinions also applies when the members of the community are labelling others self-righteous. Labelling someone is a dig and is offensive and needs to stop.

Fair enough. I apologize and will remove any offensive posts. It is not my intent to hammer anyone with my values.

/edit: et al.

This is a difference of style and values I suppose. Sure sometimes people are in denial and could use the clear message. I guess I do not see myself as better than others and therefore in the position to "give them the word" so to speak. I live my life in the old she who lives in a glass house should throw the first stone manner. I do not want my child to touch a hot stove. However, I do not say to my child...
BAD child... don't touch the hot stove... I know better than to do that and so should you... SHAME SHAME SHAME. I'm not saying that anyone here literally does that either, however, to me the tone of some posts sometimes sure does have a similar sound. I rarely post advice on these kinds of threads because I know that I am a work in progress. I am not superior to them simply because I haven't made that particular mistake. I know I've made a million others. I do not have anything meaningful and helpful to add. I assume that posters know that cheating is bad and do not need me to point that out. I assume that fat people know they are fat and do not need me to point it out. However that is me and not you...

She apparently didn't think she was doing anything wrong since she gave us every excuse in the book as to why her actions were justifiable. Then, even though she told everyone that she was married from the beginning, she decided that she didn't want anyone to comment on it. To expand on the "fat" analogy, it's like an overweight person complaining about their health but denying that their weight has anything to do with it.

I wouldn't go up to a total stranger in public and reprimand them for doing something that I don't agree with, but when someone comes here asking for advice and gets mad because they don't hear exactly what they want to hear, that's their problem, not mine. I'm not going to apologize for giving my opinion when someone asks for it.

For everyone calling other people unsupportive in this case, what exactly would have been supportive? Telling her to further complicate her life by continuing the affair? That might be nicer for her to hear, but I wouldn't call it helpful or supportive.

There's no reason why you can't share your values. That's the point I keep trying to make!! It's up to the OP to decide what they want from all the information given to them here.

But, when your values disagree with others, and you therefore label that person with a derogatory term such as "self-righteous", that's when it's wrong in my view.

Hey, I'm glad we have differing viewpoints. That's a good thing! Just don't call me names if my opinion conflicts with yours. ;)

Originally posted by PinkPanther_04
For everyone calling other people unsupportive in this case, what exactly would have been supportive? Telling her to further complicate her life by continuing the affair? That might be nicer for her to hear, but I wouldn't call it helpful or supportive.

BRAVO!




<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Originally posted by whiterose
But, when your values disagree with others, and you therefore label that person with a derogatory term such as "self-righteous", that's when it's wrong in my view.

"Self-righteous" is a derogatory term?



<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

Originally posted by Nessa
if you come to my house and ask me for food and i feed you and you don't like it... don't tell me I don't like it give me what i like when YOU came to MY HOUSE and ASKED me to feed you.

I love this analogy because I think it applies so well. I just look at it differently than you. I look at this analogy this way. When I have a guest in my home, I want them to feel welcome and comfortable. I do not want to insult them. I may not agree with their manners or with their habits, however, I go out of my way to be curtious. A guest is a blessing and treating them well even more so.

/edit: Self-Righteous:

Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.

Originally posted by Sage
"Self-righteous" is a derogatory term?

In the context it's being used on this thread, yes, IMO, it is being used as a derogatory term.

Here's the dictionary definition:

self-right·eous (slfrchs)
adj.
Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.
Exhibiting pious self-assurance: self-righteous remarks.


In our day and age of "political correctness" it seems to me that people who express their opinions based upon their morals are not considered "politically correct". And therefore, some call those individuals self-righteous.

LOL we must have posted at the same time :P. At any rate, I self-edited to remove anything that was labeling and offensive. Thanks.

I appreciate that Marcy! And I appreciate you listening to my viewpoints. I value yours as well. I agree completely with you that we need to be courteous with each other and with our new members.

Okay, here's what bothered me (and yes, I was the first one to say 'self-righteous' but I'm sorry, that's how I see it):

Someone says they are having an extramarital affair, and it's all black and white to a lot of people here (and I am NOT directing this at anyone in particular... half the time I don't even care who said what, just that it was said) -- it's always wrong, people who do that are always wrong, regardless of their specific situation.

Well, guess what??? A lot of people think that having SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE is wrong wrong wrong, and who is to say they are wrong to feel this way? Maybe pre-marital sex is wrong. Maybe everyone who engages in this is wrong. Myself included.

Maybe divorce is wrong. Some people think so. Why is that okay here?

Okay. So here it's okay to be divorced, and it's okay to have pre-marital sex (just for the record, I am divorced and am no angel... this is just hypothetical).

I just think that it's okay to state your views on something (in this case, that all extramarital affairs are wrong) but to beat someone over the head with it, poster after poster... yawn.

I guess I don't see things so black and white. Sometimes pain overrides 'right and wrong'. This is my opinion.

Let's just say I'm realistic, not idealistic.

Originally posted by PinkCat
I just think that it's okay to state your views on something (in this case, that all extramarital affairs are wrong) but to beat someone over the head with it, poster after poster... yawn.


So well said PinkCat! This is it exactly. Why is it necessary to point out that cheating is wrong time and time and time again? Afterall, its not like none of us has ever made a mistake. Its hard to understand this morality, sliced into slivers so that we feel superior to others. For a fringe group, we are awfully intolerant sometimes.

I didn't see anyone being beaten over the head. I saw a lot of people making suggestions about how she could improve her situation, but she didn't want to hear it.

To answer her original question about how long it's going to last, you have to consider the circumstance of the relationship (that it is, in fact, an extra-marital affair). To answer her subsequent questions about what problems she might face with her YM you have to consider the circumstance of the relationship (again, that it is an extramarital affair). The fact that she's married is such a huge part of the situation that it's virtually impossible to give any real advice without considering it.

Again, what advice would have been deemed supportive? I am not here to encourage people to screw up their lives or the lives of others. Encouraging someone to continue an affair just because they claim their husband is mean and it's too much of a hassle to leave him just doesn't fly, in my book.

And if someone wants to give me their opinion of premarital sex, divorce, or any of the many things people might cast aspersions on me for, let them. I'm not injured by anyone's opinion of me. But I don't go around asking for opinions either.

Originally posted by PinkPanther_04
I'm not injured by anyone's opinion of me. But I don't go around asking for opinions either.

Ain't that the truth here LOL!!!! We all want to give the advice... none of us want to ask for it...

Hey I don't mean that to be a smart azz either. I include myself in that believe me.

Originally posted by marcy
Ain't that the truth here LOL!!!! We all want to give the advice... none of us want to ask for it... My point was that if you ask for opinions you should be willing to accept the opinions that are offered (or at least politely ignore them without getting upset). The OP asked for opinions about her situation. I don't recall anyone asking for opinions about their opinions.

Point taken, but hey... if you type it... people will comment.

Marcy, I'm baffled how this ever turned into an accusation that people who posted and did not support adultry are doing it because they feel "superior."

I don't feel superior to anyone.

I have cheated on my husband and my husband cheated on me. Having been on both sides of the fence I can tell you that you don't have to feel superior to know that you can get badly hurt. People commit adultry for many reasons. Most of us who have done it were/are lonely and seeking some meaning beyond being in a sterile, perhaps abusive relationship. Sometimes counseling doesn't work and divorce isn't possible. But and it's a really big *but* -- you don't go to a public forum, wave your affair like a flag and ask how long it can last. That's sort of like holding up a "Hit Me!" sign and you shouldn't be surprised when someone takes aim.

Here our replies have been to state the obvious -- you play with fire and you are going to get burned. I have been on groups when people would start waving the Bible and belittling anyone who didn't agree. Most of us just don't want to see someone get hurt. We do think we should say..."Don't put your hand on the stove!"

We are only sort of a fringe group. We happen to have younger partners, but we apply the same rules as any other relationship forum. Most of us agree that our relationships are no different than they would be if we were the same age as our partner.

I suggest that the next person we get like this you welcome them and tell them they are doing fine and perhaps the rest of us will just give the thread a miss. I hate to see somehead headed for disaster, but I can live with not saying anything. If people want to jump into the ocean we can just hope they can swim.

Peace,
Jane

Originally posted by marcy
if you type it... people will comment. Apparently so. It kind of makes me not want to offer any advice at all.

So we aren't supposed to have opinions about others' opinions?

I think the "if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" comment applies to everyone who posts, not just the OP.

It's easy to judge someone when think you are immune to someone else's judgement, isn't it?

Well Jane I do welcome newbs. I did welcome this one and added a warning that she would most definately receive many posts admonishing her for her extra-marital affair. Although I did it in PM. I didn't see anything in her OP that I could respond to and provide her any value. So why in the aftermath did I post to it?

I did because I got a PM back from her telling me that she received really ugly PMs. She said that things had gone badly and she appreciated my attempt at kindness. I responded to her with very strong encouragement to turn them over to a Mod. I then came to the thread and reported it to a mod. Then I noticed that someone said why would anyone be kind to her in PM and not in public. What were the kind people afraid of... that is when I decided to post here.

You truly do not think she knew it was a bad thing? I know I'm wasting my type here, so I'm done.

Pinkpanther... agreed... I very, very, very often feel the exact same way. Ironic huh?

/edited to correctly identify the poster ;)

/edit once more... due to laziness I did not look up the exact wording and I do not think "kind" was exactly right... sorry... just trying to give the flavor, if not exact quotes...

There is a difference between a solicited opinion and an unsolicited opinion. And when the unsolicited opinion comes in the form of an insult I do have a problem with that.

What's wrong with just posting your own opinion and letting it go at that? If it's different from other people's opinions everyone will be able to see that. There's no need to criticize other posters, especially when you weren't willing to post yourself. When you only communicate with the OP in PM's instead of posting it leaves the impression that everyone else is ganging up on them in the thread.

Anyways, the OP is gone, and this argument is just a rehash of the never-ending argument that is always going on over here. I'll leave you ladies to it.

Originally posted by marcy
Well Jane I do welcome newbs. I did welcome this one and added a warning that she would most definately receive many posts admonishing her for her extra-marital affair. Although I did it in PM. I didn't see anything in her OP that I could respond to and provide her any value. So why in the aftermath did I post to it?

I did because I got a PM back from her telling me that she received really ugly PMs. She said that things had gone badly and she appreciated my attempt at kindness.
....
Then I noticed that someone said why would anyone be kind to her in PM and not in public. What were the kind people afraid of... that is when I decided to post here.


This was EXACTLY the case with me as well. Almost word for word.

To PinkCat and thatgirl - (and anybody else who's interested) -

I'd love to come back and get some input on what I really would like to know, which is: Please let me know how you dealt/are dealing with the age difference in your relationship with a younger man. That's pretty much all I need to know.

To clear up a couple of things:

My husband being abusive - well, if I brought up a few examples, some of you would find it abusive, some of you would not. Has he ever hit me? No. Has he ever thought it was funny when I hurt myself? Yes. Your call.

I'm not the easiest person in the world to live with, either, so his side of the story would have other issues that he contends with, so no, neither of us are perfect.

My marriage, however, from this point on, isn't anything that needs further discussion. It's for me to work out and I appreciate very much all of your input and will take everything you all have said with much respect, but as someone wisely said, the points have been well made and could we move on now?

On divorce - I'm not a big fan. It's disruptive and hurts people, too.

On infidelity - it doesn't ALWAYS have to hurt someone. That's generalizing. I've seen people just not care anymore. There are a myriad of situations out there.

On criticism - no problem. Just don't confuse what I'm doing with who I am.

On threats? Oh yeah, I'm going to Hell. If that's not judging someone, I don't know what is. So, I think I have the right to say that that tone is a bit self-righteous.

Lastly, I'm not making excuses for my behavior. I'm not particularly proud of it, but I can't escape the fact that I truly enjoy this man's company. I'm not blaming my husband for it, nor using him as an excuse.

I truly would appreciate some input on the major issues you have faced when dealing with the age difference and this one is a pretty wide gap. 51 to 29 is big, but I'm really amazed that we can talk about anything at any time and genuinely care for each other. It's not all about sex and hasn't been for a few weeks now. We really look out for each other and it's been an awakening for me. I've learned a lot about myself in the process and I'm going to miss him terribly if and when the time comes.

Thank you - again.

Let's be friends, ok?

Originally posted by marcy
So well said PinkCat! This is it exactly. Why is it necessary to point out that cheating is wrong time and time and time again? Afterall, its not like none of us has ever made a mistake. Its hard to understand this morality, sliced into slivers so that we feel superior to others. For a fringe group, we are awfully intolerant sometimes.

Fwiw, I am with Marcy and PinkCat on this - and I am by no means a stickler for political correctness - but to me, it's all about attitude:
Some people are seemingly "irritated" (if not to say offended) by the attitude of the poster ("I got my reasons for cheating figured out, thank you very much, don't bother to enlighten me") and - in my personal opinion - respond with attitude too (which PinkCat has labelled self-righteous - and tbh, yes, in some, but not all cases it does come across as that even to an "uninvolved reader").

See, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with cheating or making personal judgement values - I do have a problem when it's the sort of "you are wrong and I am right" attitude - because to me, that's all it is, attitude ...

Having values is fine, trying to force these values on others is not ... so, which means stating "I disaprove of what you are doing because of x y and z and foresee the following consequences" is one thing and perfectly legitimate imo - and I actually think a lot of the posts here DO fit this description ...

When they turn into a "moral demeaning" of basically belittling the other person for having other values (and obviously, the OP does have different values, as her explanations show, be it because she really believes it or because is in denial is not really for us to say, as we don't really know, imo), that's where I think people do overstep the boundary and act in a bigotted way - sorry, if that sounds harsh, but that's MY value system ;) I am not saying everyone has to agree with me, though ;)

Now, basically saying the OP is rationalizing or in denial MIGHT be correct - but she just might have a value system different from yours - and it's not a matter of political correctness, to "respect" that - you don't have to agree with it, but imo, at the end of the day everyone got to live his/her life to the best of his/her ability - and not everyone is at the same "karmic stage" so to speak ... so, I think it's up to the universe to pass judgement and teaching lessons, it's not necessarily our place ;).

The OP is at this crossroad in her life, and whatever decision or lessons she's gonna draw from it is up to her and also part of her development.
I do agree with Marcy and PinkCat that telling her to speed up her process and get to the point that other individuals are, is pretty presumptious in my books ...

Ok, this is 0.05 Euro worth, at least ...

Welcome back Abff. I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. I'm guilty!!

About your questions about the age gap issues, I agree with Nessa. Maybe it would be helpful if you began to ask some questions so we can understand what's on your mind?

I had posted a couple of posts earlier in the thread about my situation, but they're so far back now, I have no clue what I said. But, I'd be happy to share with you anything you want to know about my age gap relationship.

Thanks for asking Nessa - mostly it's people thinking I'm his mom, but someone wisely said to ignore that.

The other issues:

Keep in mind he's a professional athlete as are the many friends he has and my body bothers me, although it has inspired me to take better care of it lately, which is good.

Music. Our tastes are pretty different, but I suppose that's normal, too.

I wonder if he's looking for someone to mother him and if that's something that sometimes happens. I find myself just naturally taking care of things for him and asking him if he's eaten, you know, Mom things.

Goals. Life goals. I did encourage him to go back to college and he is, so that's good. My life goals are to plan for retirement and the inevitable not having to work anymore and enjoy life.

HIS mother. He would like us to meet. She is all for it. How do you handle that one? I know, I know, it's all different, but she and I are about the same age, of course, although she is not a working person and has kind of neglected him throughout his life, which probably answers all my questions.

TIA

That's ok. I wasn't really clear from the get-go and figure I've got most of it coming. I just wanted a little help, that's all.

Thanks! Glad to be back.

I've got one more issue - I'm truly astonished that the age diff doesn't seem to bother him. I can't imagine why it wouldn't.

You know what really changed how I felt about him? I was really tired one day and needed to wash my car, but just said, naah, never mind. When I came down the next morning to the parking garage, it was spotless. He'd brought water in and done it by hand. I know that sounds self-serving, but that's never happened to me. I just cried. You know how you cry sometimes when somebody says something nice?

Oh, another thing. How do you handle your YM's friends? They keep their distance, for now. One of them 's really nice, but the rest kind of scratch their heads. I can understand that.

Better run myself. Thanks for any guidance/help. Honest.

Originally posted by abff
Oh, another thing. How do you handle your YM's friends? They keep their distance, for now. One of them 's really nice, but the rest kind of scratch their heads. I can understand that.

Better run myself. Thanks for any guidance/help. Honest.

That could actually be explained and might not even be an age gap issue. They may be scratching thier heads, wondering why thier friend is stepping over a boundry that people generally shouldn't step over...by getting involved with a married woman. And before anyone says anything, I got experience on this one...

Back in around '99, I guess it was...I got involved, very briefly, with a married woman, a coworker of mine. It was only one and a half encounters...(don't ask)...on our lunch break. But, alot of my friends stepped back and scratched thier heads. And she is a handful of years older than me...

"I'm truly astonished that the age diff doesn't seem to bother him. I can't imagine why it wouldn't. "

Well, that could be one of a few things. Perhaps, he is like alot of us here and he doesn't care about a person's numerical age. True age lies in one's heart. OR....unfortunately, he doesn't care because he doesn't see a future with you. He simply see's you as "there"...a temporary stop gap to a problem that he's having...and then, when the time is suitable for him...he will move on. I don't wish this scenario upon anyone. However, in your particular situation...it is a scenario that you must wonder about.

~Dan

I agree with Dan
This YM probably doesn't care about the age-gap
because he is living for the moment and when you know
someone isn't going to be a big part of your future-
things like that don't concern you.

Yes, like Dan stated, the OW is just "there" in a
situation such as this.

abff
I haven't really addressed your situation in this thread
before now, (and welcome to Ageless, by the way).
I feel that you are setting yourself up for a lot of anguish
down the road-
but that is just my opinion.
You are a grown woman and able to make your
own choices in life.

Please don't be offended that I do not approve
of your chosen life-style.

I am inclined to ask you,
who matters the most in all of this- you?
Or maybe the YM you mention?
Surely not your husband. Maybe your children?
You are all at risk of getting hurt-
but since your question is one of understanding
major issues of age-gap relationships,
all I can say is that most likely the biggest issue
you will face will be that of people finding out this YM is
involved with a married OW.

Sorry, that's just how I see it...
you cannot run or hide from it abff.
And it could very well end up
being the ruin of all you want and hope for.




<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/femme.gif">

I think alot of the things you're worrying about Abff are normal in an OW/YM relationship.

I haven't met my fiance's mother yet, but will on my next trip to Romania where he lives, when I go there to bring him home. I will be nervous, but mostly because she doesn't speak english. :)

We do have differences in musical tastes, but I have also learned that I like the kind of music he enjoys even though I never believed before that I would.

I haven't met his friends yet, and since he's moving here to marry me here in the U.S., I really won't likely have that opportunity to be around them much. So, I can't help there.

About our life's goals... he and I have the same life goals. We both want to marry each other and live out the remainder of our lives together.

That's neat, whiterose. Romania? Wow. How exciting for you.

Thanks for all the input. As for his friends, I'm not sure they're paying a whole lot of attention. This is So. Cal. after all, and I'm not that much of an oddity. It's just unusual for me, I think. We all did have a great time at a surfing competition recently. It's an interesting culture.

And, I'm quite aware that my young friend and I are not in this for the long haul. We're just helping each other out right now. He's going to want to have a family and a life of his own when he gets more settled in. He's not sure enough of what he wants out of life just yet and I'm glad that I'm there to help.

All in all, it's a wonderful friendship. He truly deserves someone very special. He's been hurt an awful lot for being as young as he is.

Gotta go to a meeting. Thanks again to all.

abff,

*Oh, another thing. How do you handle your YM's friends? They keep their distance, for now*

Abff, you're in a tough position because even if your YM's friends are ambivalent about your age (and they probably are), most good people won't approve of the fact that you're cheating on your husband with their friend. This, more than your age, is what will keep people suspicious of you. I don't think I'd be waving a flag of support for my friend if he was in that position either.

If this is just a temporary thing for you, why do you even want to get involved in his social circle?. If you become close to them, you'll lose not only your bf but these new friends when you move on, which can hurt an awful lot.

Hi Abff, welcome back.

I've read through all your posts and there's a couple of things that stood out for me.

Disclaimer: I might be way off the mark here. This is just what I've picked out and is only my opinion.

1) You're at a crossroads in your life, and so is your YM, it seems. (Btw, this could explain at least part of why you're so attracted to each other, but I digress.) You mentioned that he was kind of at loose ends until he met you, and now he's thinking of going back to college (after what I presume is a long hiatus due to his age).

2) You mentioned his mother "is not a working person and has kind of neglected him throughout his life".

3) "He's been hurt an awful lot for being as young as he is."

4) You're finding yourself starting to ask him if he's eaten, etc -- things that a mother might ask.

Normally I would not come to this conclusion in an OW/YM relationship, but I think in this case there could very well be a possibility that he's looking for some kind of substitute mother figure. His own mother is somewhat neglectful and doesn't seem to have given him a lot of guidance in his life, since she's apparently more or less drifting herself. That's left him at loose ends and not sure what to do about it.

In addition, he's experienced, in your estimation, a lot of pain for his age. That would make him feel pretty vulnerable, especially as he's about to enter his 30's and has no real direction.

Having said that, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if he is seeing you as some kind of mother figure. It might be that's what he needs right now -- someone older and more experienced to guide him where his own mother did not.

I also wonder if the reason his own mother wants to meet you is because she senses this, and is eager to turn over the mothering duties to you. It doesn't sound like she's been a very good role model or parent, and part of her might be hoping you'll "take him off her hands."

Like I said, I could be way off, but those are just the points that stood out for me.

Im 54 he's 23 :)

Abff,
I was where you were once...exactly...no judgment here, honey. I fell in love with my ym while I was still legally married as well....but separated emotionally, sexually, affectionately, mentally, spiritually for years. My ym was the catalyst I needed to step out of denial and stop "settling" for a marriage that had been dead for years...although we'd tried counseling, etc....there was just too much dishonesty and damage. My husband and I hadn't been in love for years, and I was just still married because it was convenient, financially safe, and "the right thing"....in reality, there was nothing truer than the love between my ym and I .
Although my ym is out of my life now, my therapist says he was my lifeline...the one who gave me the impetus to rediscover myself, vibrancy, and realize what love should feel like again. I've been divorced now for two years, and soooo glad to be. I owe it to my relationship with my ym, and yes, even though I was still married when it started.
Emotional bankruptcy spurs us to do things we never thought we would just to survive.
My only advice: be honest with yourself and everyone else...and then make a decision that allows you the most self integrity. If your marriage has been over forever, make it official whether or not this ym is in your life or not.
PM me if you want to talk more about our parrallel situations.
best, Karen

I agree with Special K on this. :`)