Pushing the Bounds of Satire....

....and good taste.

I deleted a satirical thread about Reagan after another
usually like-minded person asked me to.

In it's place, maybe a discussion about our cultural values
surrounding the deceased would be good.

My questions are:

Why do people (in the USA) venerate and dignify people
whom they really despised while they were alive?

Why are some people NOT to be publically praised or
honored or complimented while others are?

It's honestly puzzling to me.

I remember the huge uproar that erupted when the
Black nationalist leader Louis Farrakhan observed that
Hitler was a "great" man.

He didn't mean that Hitler was wonderful ---- just that
for a short period of time, he did some momentous
things for the German nation.

Anyway, the scandal was huge.....and the fact that
Hitler was long dead and that we believe you should
speak no ill of the dead, did nothing to help Farrakhan's
crisis. (Farrakhan is a bigot; we should ackknowledge
that)

Also, when Ronald Reagan visited the graves of SS
veterans at Bitburg cemetary, he was widely criticized,
again, even though the SS guys were long since dead.

I'm sure the surviving relatives and descendants of the
SS guys appreciated Reagan's kind gesture, but others
were outraged.

So, obviously there are certain people who AREN"T
worthy of respect or commemoration even when dead.

How do we sort through it all? Is it an intensely political
question, as I believe it is?

Or is there a non-political way to decide which of the
deceased are worthy of praise and who aren't?

Also, which dead are worthy of disrespect if we ever
are to freely disrespect the dead?

Interesting questions to ponder, and thoughtful
replies from all are appreciated.


P.S. I would kindly ask that the moderators NOT move
this thread to the political ghetto of the forum. I'd like
to see comments from people who consider themselves
non-political.

Are we comparing Regan w/ Hitler??:rolleyes:

Probably the fact that you concentrated your examples on politicians is what makes your thread look political, Harrison. Had you used the example of that uncle who was an abuser but now that he's dead nobody dares talk about him, the discussion would concentrate on whether or not we are allowed to criticize the dead.

If your question is supposed to focus on something else than the political aspects of public praise or public criticism of people, maybe you could use other examples, so that we could talk about men and not about politicians. I think the question in general is very interesting because it involves the taboo where once dead everybody becomes good. And that those who died as monsters aren't allowed any praise even for the virtues they did have.

I honestly think we are more prudish discussing the reputation of "real" people we knew in our lives than public figures. We often talk about the public figures without any first hand knowledge, just based on what the media says, on stories we read somewhere.

I agree with Thatgirl... If it's rephrased.... I also think it's because the past few days he's been posting about political insults towards Regan and unfortunalty he continues to use them.... I think we should use other names or just leave names out of it in general.... that way it's neutral.....

this statment


I deleted a satirical thread about Reagan after another usually like-minded person asked me to

then there was the entire middle of the thread about hitler.. and then about REgan....

Unfortunatly it is poltical.. If he does what maria Suggested then It won't be... just take out the politcal names :)

Streff was along the right lines too.....It happens in all areas of life. People who became icons or larger than life after death....

If we don't want political responses, pick a non-political starting point. Can someone give some other examples of a famous figure who became an icon or worshipped after their death? I can think of quite a few.

Think of one, and use that as your starting point rather than say, Hitler......and we can avoid the political aspect.

Okay, let me toss one out there...Princess Diana. She was having a lot of issues in the last years of her life...The divorce, the men she had seen during and after her marriage, eating disorder and what have you......but after her accidental death...what happened?

Originally posted by Jo-Admin
Okay, let me toss one out there...Princess Diana. She was having a lot of issues in the last years of her life...The divorce, the men she had seen during and after her marriage, eating disorder and what have you......but after her accidental death...what happened?

Yes, and JFK Jr. as well. :rolleyes:

How about people who were persecuted for some reason, that a whole generation bought into the legend that this person was a monster and then we later learn he or she was right, and actually was a good person?

Can you folks think of someone in this position?

Well the point of the thread (I think) was after the passing of a public figure, how all the bad things are forgotten, and they seem to be made a "saint" so to speak, so that is why the mention of these people.

Maria, you have my mind going...and I can't think of anyone. Did you have a specific person in mind????

I remember having heard lots of criticism regarding Mother Theresa's methods and of course many more people adored her, but after she passed away I never heard anything critical about her anymore. It's very hard to judge someone when they are not around anymore to defend themselves, maybe that's why many of us are embarrassed to do it.

I read about a Russian man who was accused -wrongly- of raping and killing a little girl. He claimed his innocence for years, but nobody believed him. He was sentenced to death and the sentence was carried out; it was only years later that they found the real guilty guy, one who proved to be the most famous Russian serial killer.

I can imagine what that man who was initially condemned and his family suffered. Even after his death, nobody could mention his name or say anything good about him, not until it was proved he was innocent.

I guess being famous is rarely a good thing, if you happen to be accused of anything wrong.

Henry the 8th...because of impact on Divorce.

Stanley Kubrick, perhaps? When he was alive, they considered him a strange one....and didn't really appreciate his movies and visions. After death....it seems like his movies have taken off...

Joseph Merrick "The Elephant Man"...during life he was abhored because of his condition and looks. Very few people took pity on him and considered him a living, walking monster. After he died...and the true story about him circulated, there was almost like a cult following that loved the man.

I think we made an exception to the "speak no ill" rule when Saddam's sons were killed.

Perhaps the main reason today not to speak ill of the dead is that they can't defend themselves. In the past if you spoke ill, their spirit could come and visit you with some very unpleasant things. So be nice when you talk about drunken Uncle Teddy lest he set a boojum on you.

The second reason is that while someone is alive they have the opportunity to change, or mend their ways. Once they are dead that opportunity is denied them. So you are beating a dead horse, so to speak...

Regan's hoo-ha made me sad because I know that he has been mentally dead for years. Nancy ran his presidency and everyone knew it. His death should be celebrated because he's free of that broken shell of a mind now.

As for Diana...I was watching her funeral and suddenly found myself sobbing. I watched her get married, looking like a fairytale princess. There were dreams and hopes and she was going to live happily ever after. Now we knew she never would. There would be no storybook ending for her in this life. I found my tears were for the loss of a future and the end of a dream. It was the sorrow of a life cut short and unfulfilled.

I get sad for Marilyn and Jimi and Jim and all the rest of the people in this world who were taken far to soon. They had problems, but I think there is always the hope that, in time, they would have been okay.

Dan, actually Joseph Merrick did relatively well at the end of his life because people did discover that there was a beautiful and cultured gentleman beneath that outward appearance. He went to the theatre and heads of state such as Princess Alexandra were frequent visitors. If you want read his story and see what he should have looked like check out this link:
Joseph CArey Merrick (http://www.jsitton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/elephantman/elephant_man.htm) I have been enamoured of this gentle courageous man ever since I first heard of him. How I would have loved to have met him.

Peace,
Jane

Originally posted by BearsAngel
Dan, actually Joseph Merrick did relatively well at the end of his life because people did discover that there was a beautiful and cultured gentleman beneath that outward appearance. He went to the theatre and heads of state such as Princess Alexandra were frequent visitors. If you want read his story and see what he should have looked like check out this link:
Joseph CArey Merrick (http://www.jsitton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/elephantman/elephant_man.htm) I have been enamoured of this gentle courageous man ever since I first heard of him. How I would have loved to have met him.

Peace,
Jane

Whoops,

I stand corrected, Jane. Thank you for the information. I don't know if you know or not, but recently I read that they declared his birth place (I think it was his birth place) an official historical site.....

So, he's definetly getting recognition now, as well!

~Dan

I think one or two people here may be missing the point Harrison is trying to put across.. I think this is a moral question, not a political one, about speaking ill of the dead, it just so happens Harrison used political examples. Am I right?..."

Spot on, Streff!

Harrison: Do you sit around at night and just think up touchy subjects? lol.. your getting good at it these days..

lol This forum's no fun to me if it isn't jumping
in some way, with people thinking, debating, and
grappling with interesting issues...

And then there's always the issue of panty-lines. :p


Apologies to all for my extended silence. I left for work
just after typing this thread, and have recently returned.

As they have long been dead, some examples of highy villified people in their lifetime who have become pretty "glorified" after their deaths does include some ancient "politicians" - for example, Julius Caesar, Augustus, Napoleon Bonaparte ...

If I remember my history lesson well, they were all highly controversial for large parts of their political lives ... but unarguably shaped Western (European) society .... incidentally, also all some of the biggest war mongers in history .... <shrugs> ...

Actually, I guess the public opinion on them might have depended on who you asked at the time - guess some beneficiaries of their politics would always be more prone to actually speak well of them than someone "foreign" or opposed to them ... that's politics, imo ;)

I don't know why people find it so hard to separate the person and the deeds though - probably, because with "public" figures, most people don't have any personal insights into the "person", just the public persona ... :p

/edit: sp mistakes ...

Originally posted by BearsAngel
Perhaps the main reason today not to speak ill of the dead is that they can't defend themselves. In the past if you spoke ill, their spirit could come and visit you with some very unpleasant things. So be nice when you talk about drunken Uncle Teddy lest he set a boojum on you.

The second reason is that while someone is alive they have the opportunity to change, or mend their ways. Once they are dead that opportunity is denied them. So you are beating a dead horse, so to speak...

Regan's hoo-ha made me sad because I know that he has been mentally dead for years. Nancy ran his presidency and everyone knew it. His death should be celebrated because he's free of that broken shell of a mind now.

As for Diana...I was watching her funeral and suddenly found myself sobbing. I watched her get married, looking like a fairytale princess. There were dreams and hopes and she was going to live happily ever after. Now we knew she never would. There would be no storybook ending for her in this life. I found my tears were for the loss of a future and the end of a dream. It was the sorrow of a life cut short and unfulfilled.

I get sad for Marilyn and Jimi and Jim and all the rest of the people in this world who were taken far to soon. They had problems, but I think there is always the hope that, in time, they would have been okay.

Dan, actually Joseph Merrick did relatively well at the end of his life because people did discover that there was a beautiful and cultured gentleman beneath that outward appearance. He went to the theatre and heads of state such as Princess Alexandra were frequent visitors. If you want read his story and see what he should have looked like check out this link:
Joseph CArey Merrick (http://www.jsitton.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/elephantman/elephant_man.htm) I have been enamoured of this gentle courageous man ever since I first heard of him. How I would have loved to have met him.

Peace,

Jane,

Thank you so much for posting the link to the Merrick website. I liked the intro (I loved hearing "Adagio for Strings" :) ) and I plan on looking more into the site and reading about him. All I ever recall about the "Elephant Man" was there being a book or movie, and sadly, I had thought it was fiction. I guess you truly do learn something new every day and thank you again, Jane.

...Hitler WAS a monster, but he was also one of the most astute politicians the world has ever known, who took a broken, bankrupt country and made it a force that threatened to take over the world, his achievements were spectacular, even though they were aimed in the wrong direction!
--- babes66

Right, babes. I believe that's what Farrakan was getting
at when he called Hitler "great." He later clarified himself
by saying he meant "wickedly great."

Originally posted by Aloysius
Thank you so much for posting the link to the Merrick website. I liked the intro (I loved hearing "Adagio for Strings" :) ) and I plan on looking more into the site and reading about him. All I ever recall about the "Elephant Man" was there being a book or movie, and sadly, I had thought it was fiction. I guess you truly do learn something new every day and thank you again, Jane. One of my best friends while I was growing up had the same disease as Joesph Merrick - at least that's what we were told. It was really sad. She had large tumors all over her...they kept growing and growing. They were so large on her face that many kids made fun of her. It was really sad. She passed away several years ago. My mother said that the tumors were growing on the inside of her body as well as the outside. She was a really sweet person.

How funny. There's an article on exactly this subject staring up at me from the Sunday paper.

Here's a bit of it - since it's so apropos:
----------------------------------------------
Rocker Jimi Hendrix had it right. "It's funny how most people love the dead". he said. "Once you're dead, you're made for life".

Most American mourners understand this perfectly. They punctuate the good traits of the deceased with exclamation points and minimize the bad with parenthesis, if not an eraser.

Whether the departed is a former President or a family member, there is a powerful pull to be respectful, forgiving, even effusive with praise.

Few among us take the acerbic tone actress Bette Davis took on the death of her arch rival Joan Crawford - "Just because someone dies doesn't mean they've changed".

Even executed California killer Robert Alton Harris was eulogized as a "loving" man at his funeral.

Speaking of Jimmy Hoffa, Teamster Anthony Rizzo of Local 945 in New Jersey once scolded "If you don't have any respect for the man, than think at least about his family".

"We can trace back to primitive tribes a very common mixture of love and fear of the dead", according to John Williamson, a Boston College sociology professor who teaches courses on death. "There was almost from the beginning a fear that if you disrespect the dead, you risk retaliation. Their spirits can haunt you and even hurt you, bringing on plagues and trouble. What endures to this day is just an overwhelming pressure in this culture not to speak or hear the negative about anyone who has died".

Every fallen leader glorified as a hero has at least some contrarians eager to speak ill of the dead.

In one of the pithiest editorials ever,
the Philadelphia Daily News declared in 1975 " "They say only the good die young. Generalissimo Franco was 82. Seems about right".

We tend to picture a grieving nation devastated by tragedy when Abraham Lincoln - a man judged by many to be America's greatest president - was felled by a bullet.

Not so. When the Daily Constitutionalist of Augusta, GA heard the news, it labeled the deceased president as the "archfiend" and gleefully described how "all Yankeedom mourns and howls over the loss of it's leading tyrant"

When Princess Diana was killed in 1997, shrines sprung up in her memory and mourners labeled her "an angel" and "a saint". This prompted the director of the Royal Institute of Philosophy to write an essay called "Faking it - The Seentimentalization of Modern Society".
He disparaged the princess as an "often muddled and self-obsessed woman".

Perhaps no recent passing has illustrated the delicate balancing act more than the death of Richard Nixon who resigned the presidency in disgrace. Then-President Cinton straddled the line saying "He made mistakes, and they, like his accomplishments, are a part of his life and record". But gonzo journalist Hunter Thompson was not deterred from saying that "he was scum".

"Death is a rupture, a real potential breakdown of the world as we know it, whether we've lost a president or a parent" said Gary Laderman, an Emory University history professor and author of a book on the history of death "Rest In Peace".

Our tendency towards the dead is the same as that old Johnny Mercer song - accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative. In so doing, we disregard Voltaire - that one owes respect to the living, but to the dead, one owes nothing but truth.

In other words, you don't want Voltaire delivering your eulogy.
-------------------------------------------

Our tendency towards the dead is the same as that old Johnny Mercer song - accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative. In so doing, we disregard Voltaire - that one owes respect to the living, but to the dead, one owes nothing but truth.

Love that quote. Thanks for providing that article, Desert Spring.

As you may have guessed, I lean closer towards
Voltaire! :D