men, work and money: checking my own motives

Thanks, all, for getting back to me.

I was asking advice about this new love affair, which is going very fast, with myself (29) and I guy I met through work (49).
Italian Knight. You said "if your love is truly on the up and up (i.e., not related to career-oriented motives" then all will be well. While I have every belief that this is about love, not anything else, I'm still worried about it. It's like he's a great cake, and has icing as well and I feel guilty about the icing.

I've just come out of a three year relationship where we were both stony broke, and where the guy was going nowhere, and wouldn't look for a job. I was paying the rent. I was working out how to end this when I meant this new OM. Who is wonderful, and kind, and brilliant, and seems to be crazy about me.

On the practical side, he's solvent, highly successful, and lives in a nice place. I'm busy trying to carve a career out for myself out. I'm not in the least bit interested in money, apart from having enough to pay my rent. I guess I'm impressed he's successful, because that means he's motivated and that's attractive to me. But I've already told him that I feel kind of strange about him seeing where I live (I'm coming to the end of a load of postgrad study so, at 29, I live in a crummy flat in a student area and hold down 2 jobs).

How has anyone else dealt with the discrepancy in income/lifestyle that seems - to me - quite likely when you get into a relationship with an OM, simply because they've had more time to sort their life out?

S

Hi there again, Sophie,
This is my perspective on how money and love intermix.

For one thing, since I am something of an expert on economics, I can tell you that in today's economy, there really is no such thing as a "steady job." Even successful people can suddenly find themselves out of work, with their job outsourced or downsized, and there are many highly ambitious and motivated people who have a very difficult time finding a good job, or a job to replace the good one that they lost, especially in an economy whose last decade of growth has produced far more low-paying retail and service jobs than high-paying "white collar" jobs.
I think you are a very hard-working person yourself, to be working two jobs, and the fact that you don't feel comfortable about the flat you live in should not be indicative that you don't work very hard in your bf's eyes. The most successful person you know can be pink slipped before they know it. Even today, people as traditionally successful as doctors and lawyers are increasingly going from self-employed to salaried employees of HMO run health facilities and big law firms, respectively. And these corporate entities are as vulnerable as any other type of industry to the above factors.
Hence, since your OM loves you so much, and you are so caring of him, I think he would never hold the fact that you're not making a large amount of money right now against you. Money is nice, but love is--and should--always be more important.
I know many women (and a good number of men) who make finances a large consideration when they choose a partner, and they will often say, "I'm not a gold digger, I'm just being 'practical'." But this is never a wise idea, because the next recession in the economy could cost their partners their lucrative job. And if someone hooks up with a partner who considers their job at least as important as their love for him/her, and they should then lose that job unexpectedly, they are going to lose a lot more than a source of income...they are also likely to lose the person they loved. I think your concern over not using your bf for his money suggests very high character on your part, Sophie, so don't be so hard on yourself :-)

Also, ambition is not necessarily tied into earning power. Many people in high-paying jobs are relatives of those who have ownership in the firm, and often have very easy "executive" jobs where they are little more than a "watchdog with a suit." These jobs are often needless, and sometimes created exclusively for these people by their privileged relative. This needs to be kept in mind.
Also, many ambitous people simply choose a vocation that is very stimulating to them as a person, but which is not often going to earn them large amounts of loot. Such people would be passed up by many partners who may unfairly judge them to be unambitous, when in actuality they may have to work exceedingly hard to earn what money they do make. Anyone who has worked in a low-paying burger flipping joint, for example, is well aware of how demanding low pay work can be, and when it's relatively non-lucrative skilled labor, the work can be even more difficult. You would be amazed at some of the cushy, cake jobs that several high paid "executives" have, and all due to nepotism rather than ambition.

I would think that people who are hard workers, but whose vocation isn't extremely rewarding fiscally may be a good partner for many, because they do not expect anyone else to support them, they are no stranger to adversity, they are much more able to hold up their end when the going get's tough, and they will be far more likely to love their partner no matter how difficult things become in the money department :-)
And keep in mind that even a terrific job can end if someone should be unfortunate enough to contract a serious illness, or suffer a serious injury.

Marriage is in many ways a contract, but I do not think it should become something akin to a literal business contract.

As it is, Sophie, you seem to have a great OM who really cares about you, and he makes a lot of money. Consider the former to be the most important thing of all, and the latter to be a terrific fringe benefit of the relationship, and nothing more. He isn't always guaranteed to have a great job, nor is anyone else...but if he loves you enough, then you can rest assured that you won't lose his heart :-) And also, don't worry about what he thinks about your college pad...the lady living there should make the place seem like pure gold to him for that reason alone.

And as for your concern regarding this statement of yours: "It's like he's a great cake, and has icing as well and I feel guilty about the icing."

Enjoy the cake, and have no guilt about liking the icing also...but simply keep in mind that you would love the cake even if the icing was of a different flavor :-)

Italian Knight

Thanks so much for being out there ItalianKnight. I've been up since 5am thinking about this one, and it's a blessed relief to air the insomniac fears, and to have you respond. I hear what you're saying about the economy. Even if this man lost his job and his flat and all his icing, then I'd still love him. But I don't think he ever can lose his job because he's a creator of sorts, and nobody can stop him doing that. And I do love what he does because it's part of him. If he became, say, a scuba diving instructor I think I'd still love him because I don't think he'll ever stop looking at the world in the way he does.

It's kind of you to tell me not to be hard on myself. And a cheering thought for my day. I feel the need to get going with the self-flagellation, I guess, because I have ignored nearly EVERYONE's advice that I know on the issue of getting involved with someone so quickly after the breakdown of my last relationship. So this new relationship has only just begun, I've told practically nobody because their advice was "whatever you do when you end it with X do not get involved with anyone". And they were saying this when I already was. So I feel I'm having to play inner counsellor to myself, and I guess I feel I have to be pretty harsh with myself. My mother has told me that I must now refuse to sleep with anyone till they put a ring on my finger as I'm 29 and therefore, apparently, at risk of becoming a shrivelled and eternally disappointed gourd (I paraphrase her position on the issue) unless I get hitched and have numerous babies immediately.

Oddly -- while all the friends my own age have been telling me to take time out, when I've talked to two of my older friends and mentioned that someone new is on the horizon, their reaction has been to tell me to go for it and that life is short. And when I think about that -- and consider how I feel (nearly got on a bus to go and see him this morning at 5am) it's they that seem right. Oh well. Off to job number 2 I guess. Hope you have a terrific day wherever you may be.

I think you think too much. A woman after my own heart. :cool:

Would you still love him if he didn't make as much money? I take it you wouldn't be attracted to him if he was another mooch and had NO money, but those issues are beyond actual money of course. They're indicative of deeper problems. I know you went to lengths to point out how broke your ex was, in order to give yourself some "cred." But you don't need to prove you're not a gold digger here. I mean, they're out there, but they don't come here. Talking about actual relationships and age-gap issues would be of no importance, if money was what they're after.

If you're worried about OTHER people thinking you're a gold digger, well, you're going to have to brush it off. People will think what they want to think and whatever's most comfortable for them to think about you and your OM. It should have no bearing on you though, because do they know you? Do they care about you? Where are they at the end of the day? They're nothing. They're just trying to be flies in your soup, but they only succeed if you CARE about what they say. I think you'll learn to ignore that.

So he's got some coin. You can love him in spite of it, you know. :D

Yup. I think too much. I'm a flipping navel-gazing loon. I've been doing it for too long. Good thing I came out of my own head and collided with some sense -- Datura81 you've just made me laugh. Thank you
I think I'd best stop trying to collect credibility in my own moral-compass-bank which is a pretty horrid place anyway. You're right -- I wouldn't love him if he was a mooch (what a lovely word) with no cash, because I'm not a mooch. But I guess I needn't try and sabotage the whole thing simply because the guy's doing ok for himself. Ok. I can go to work smiling now :)

Hello, Sophie,


Thanks so much for being out there ItalianKnight. I've been up since 5am thinking about this one, and it's a blessed relief to air the insomniac fears, and to have you respond.

Not a problem, Sophie...we all come here to help each other, and I'm pleased to see that I was helpful to you :-)


I hear what you're saying about the economy. Even if this man lost his job and his flat and all his icing, then I'd still love him. But I don't think he ever can lose his job because he's a creator of sorts, and nobody can stop him doing that.

Realistically speaking, hon, anyone can fall on hard times, even if you are into personally creative work, such as writing, art, invention, etc. This depends on whether the economy, at any given time, is conducive to high sales for whatever type of product you are creating, or service you are offering. As such, everyone should consider the money issue before choosing a partner who has a lot of coin...something you are already sensitive to, so I think you will do just fine :-)

And I do love what he does because it's part of him. If he became, say, a scuba diving instructor I think I'd still love him because I don't think he'll ever stop looking at the world in the way he does.

Men have scoured the Earth and hoped and prayed every day of their lives for years and years to meet a woman who will feel for them the way you feel for your bf, Sophie, in terms of appreciating what they do simply because it is a part of their heart and soul...congrats to both of you on your mutual good fortune :-)

It's kind of you to tell me not to be hard on myself. And a cheering thought for my day.

The fact that you are indeed concerned about this displays a high degree of character and a well developed conscience, Sophie...so you have no need to worry about your character and motives, simply because you do worry about them, if you get my drift :-)

Many men, including myself, have long hoped to meet a woman with your self-introspection and moral outlook. All the more reason for you not to be so hard on yourself :-)

I feel the need to get going with the self-flagellation, I guess, because I have ignored nearly EVERYONE's advice that I know on the issue of getting involved with someone so quickly after the breakdown of my last relationship. So this new relationship has only just begun, I've told practically nobody because their advice was "whatever you do when you end it with X do not get involved with anyone". And they were saying this when I already was. So I feel I'm having to play inner counsellor to myself, and I guess I feel I have to be pretty harsh with myself.

It seems they all feel that you should give yourself a "breather" before entering another relationship so soon, because they are probably concerned that you may be doing so on the rebound, simply to fill the void in your heart that is festering there due to the end of your last relationship. I can't say this is bad advice, but on the other hand, I can say that one of the best cures for heartbreak and the void it leaves behind is a good love interest coming along quickly afterwards :-) I think everyone in your life, however, are mindful of how much another heartbreak so soon after the last one can be very injurious to you, something that can be caused by another bad relationship. So such a situation is very emotionally risky, but from what you have said, I think your current bf deserves the benefit of the doubt.

My mother has told me that I must now refuse to sleep with anyone till they put a ring on my finger as I'm 29 and therefore, apparently, at risk of becoming a shrivelled and eternally disappointed gourd (I paraphrase her position on the issue) unless I get hitched and have numerous babies immediately.

People should never be pressured into marriage or childbirth because they are told that they "should" be married or raising a family at "their age." People must do it because they feel they are ready, and more importantly, because it's what they truly want at that point in their life. Just as you are in no way obligated to choose a partner whom society approves of, you are likewise under no obligation to choose a certain course in life simply because society has decided that everyone your age "should" be doing certain things at certain ages.

Oddly -- while all the friends my own age have been telling me to take time out, when I've talked to two of my older friends and mentioned that someone new is on the horizon, their reaction has been to tell me to go for it and that life is short.

I'm one of those people who believe that things such as maturity, knowledge, and wisdom are all relative, and are not dependent upon advancing age (which is why I do not believe society's contention that "most" OM who date YW are trying to "take advantage of their inexperience and lack of wisdom in life to acquire a partner they can control"--younger people are more willful, and much more resistant to control than older people, I think). But one thing you do learn as you get older is how shocking it is at the speed at which life progresses once you hit 21, and you are filled with deep regret over the many things you always wanted to do, but continuously kept putting aside. Life is indeed short, and youth is much shorter still...so seek your happiness at whatever point in your life that you can find it :-) I don't think that younger people should be under any socially imposed obligation to hold off on looking for love until "later in life." If they prefer to have fun right now over finding love, that is fine. But if they want love now, and feel that they are ready for it (and wanting something and being ready for it are sometimes completely seperate things), then they should seek it when they choose :-)

And when I think about that -- and consider how I feel (nearly got on a bus to go and see him this morning at 5am) it's they that seem right.

He's quite lucky to have a YW who considers getting on a bus to go and see him at 5 AM :-)

Oh well. Off to job number 2 I guess. Hope you have a terrific day wherever you may be.

Thank you, Sophie, and I hope your day goes well, also, and I'm glad that I, and the others here, could put your mind a bit at ease for the day :-)

Italian Knight

OK, sophie, a couple of things...

First, my advice to you is to slow yourself down. Leaving aside the rebound issue (which should not be left aside, actually), you are in the first flush of infatuation. Your urge to get on the bus at 5:00am is a pretty good indication of that. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep it in mind as you try to sort out your feelings and your situation. And this guy may be everything you believe he is, especially by contrast with your ex-boyfriend. But there are very good reasons for giving yourself some time after getting out of a (moderately) long-term relationship.

Second, I want to assure you that your living circumstances probably won't matter in the least to this new man. If he's everything you say he is, then he probably knows what is important to him in a relationship, and your position on the economic ladder isn't likely to qualify - and if even if it did, he should be intelligent enough to make allowances for your age.

I own a (heavily mortgaged) house. It's fairly large. The young woman I'm interested in (but who, alas, is not interested in me) is fifteen years my junior, and is living in a shoebox apartment that would probably fit into my living room. In order to stay there, she is working multiple jobs and working her tail off at a career which she loves but which she can never expect to bring her much in the way of income. So what? I respect her work ethic, but really it's her heart and mind and spirit that captivated me. And I remember what I had when I was her age. It wasn't too different.

There's no reason for being embarrassed for not being the same place in life as your new man. The one thing you might want to watch out for is that he might try to "help" pull you along too far too fast. That can be a problem for some younger women, but I suspect that at your age you've already been through the whole independence thing: you've proven to yourself that you can make it on your own.

Dear Altered,

Hmmm. You are, of course, spot on. I'm completely infatuated with him. Trouble is -- I don't actually want to slow down. I know the logic behind it. And I know that I jump headlong into relationships. And I know that I've just come out of a long-term relationship (with another slightly OM, 10 years older than me). That relationship was, as I have said, in a right state - everything from fun to sex to communication had seized up. And I told him it was over because, on top of it all, if I didn't I was just going to end up cheating with him with the guy I'm now seeing. And I'd already very nearly cheated on him with someone else.

So -- logic says tell my new found love (infatuee?) to wait. Go and spend some time on my own, see my friends, get some time to eat all the things that I haven't been allowed to cook for a couple of years. And if he likes me, he'll wait.

But I absolutely know that I won't, and can't do that.
I'm stone cold sober with this guy and I feel completely intoxicated.

So, is there any way to slow myself down without stopping seeing him or stopping sleeping with him? Or am I just a hopeless case?

As for your point about him trying to "help me". I've thought about this one some more today -- and I know that it's deeply important for me to be always independent, so I guess I won't worry too much about that. If he offers to help - I know how to say no. That - I can quite easily say no to.

Altered, I am obviously both infatuated and deeply solipsistic too. Or at least scatty (must be that 5am wake up) as I forgot that I wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear that it's not quite working out for you with the woman you care for. I hope things look up soon.

My husband has always made a great deal more money than I have. He isn't extravagant in any way, but he hasn't had to really think about money for a long time in the way I always have (i.e. living paycheck to paycheck). Once we got married, he gave me the opportunity to pursue my acting career. I gave up my "day job" and have pursued acting pretty much full time (working just part time so I can have some spending money of my own).

I have had to deal with the guilt of it. Most of my actor friends are working extremely hard with full-time jobs in addition to shows and auditions they are doing. I don't have to do that, and my good fortune just makes me feel guilty sometimes. I do try to take advantage of it and not take it for granted. We live very frugally since there are two of us living on basically one income (and less than that with the alimony he pays). But, just because I am grateful and taking advantage of it does not mean that I married him because of the money. It was an added benefit, and I am very fortunate.

I think only you can know why you are doing this. It sounds very much from this side like an extra benefit --- not at all like you are "after" his money in any way. And as far as other people go, really you have no control over what they feel. If it wasn't this, there would be some other reason for them to disapprove. I say go forward if you are happy. Good luck.

Originally posted by sophie2004
I'm stone cold sober with this guy and I feel completely intoxicated.

So, is there any way to slow myself down without stopping seeing him or stopping sleeping with him? Or am I just a hopeless case?

Unfortunately, the only answer I know of is "self-discipline." Or possibly, you could enlist his help.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would sit down with him, explain my concerns, and see if the two of us could come up with some boundaries and a plan. If I could find a trusted mentor to go to for advice and accountability, that would be excellent too.

I admit, I've been fortunate in this respect. Although you very sweetly expressed your sympathy for my situation, the truth is that my friendship with my young woman friend has been (I believe) very good for both of us. We have had the opportunity to get to know each other a bit better without the complications of romance, and at the same time we have grown as individuals - in part due to our friendship with each other. If our relationship ever does happen to take a romantic turn, in my view this has been exactly the right way to develop it.

Originally posted by YankeeGrrl
Then, you get what MadBess and I share: Luxury Guilt! :D (seriously, same sitch: two lives, one income, one frugal lifestyle, my dream, his alimony...trying to balance it all internally while acknowledging our relatively good fortune)

Hi YankeeGrrl!!! Nice to meet ya! ;-)