some advice needed

i need some advice here...originally this is posted in jerry's random thought thread about insomnia...i'm having insomnia again...so here it is...

i lost 3 and half hour of sleep last night...and the night before had only about 4 hours of sleep...i guess that the possibility of dating two guys at the same time is really scary to me...both of them named scott...can u believe it? scott A is my good friend for years w/ whom i'm very comfortable to simply snuggle up right next to him & wrap my arms around him although he is not as good looking as scott B...i was really afraid of the possibility of dating scott A and not working out and losing a friendship of many years......whereas scott B, very handsome, had been after me for a long time and it seemed like nothing major really could deter him...i didn't think it would ever work b/w either one of those two guys...yet scott A and i hit it off much better than Scott B & i...i'm predominantly a woman whose brain is wired very much like that of an engineer...as far as i know, it usually takes one engineer to get along or succeed in relating to another engineer...so i'm afraid that neither one of them are engineer minded and that both of them would end up getting hurt and we all just waste our time w/ each other...my mind was working overtime i suppose at the possiblity of the changing dynamics of relating to them both...

i know that both of them are very sensitive...w/ scott B, it really gives me a heartache to see him ache...he often perceived my not saying hi or paying attention to him as some sort of rejection...and i know he really hurts whenever that happens...

w/ scott A, i don't worry about him as much b/c he adapts better...anyway, should i risk my friendship w/ scott A by going out w/ him? he hasn't asked me but i just noticed his changed attitude towards me last saturday night (after i told him that looks isn't everything)...a much more solicitous, caring, loving attitude towards me...

scott B had been trying very hard to engage me and never seemed to give up for some reason, was also very solicitous and complimentary/emotionally supportive, very careful w/ me as if he really wanted my approval...

i'm not comfortable w/ scott B and i don't believe he's comfortable w/ me either...i just think it's a waste of time to ever date each other when i really don't think it would work b/w us...

as w/ scott A, i don't know if i want to risk our friendship by dating him should he ask me out...and scott A would not ask me unless i give him the signal ...so i don't know if i would want to give him that signal...

anyway, thx 4 letting me vent here....i need a sounding board...

sleepless in Calif,
ng

p.s. they both are very good men, definitely marriage material...by the way, i don't make out w/ my dates...not even if both of them become my boyfriends...that's simply my dating policy here ...that's something i had made up my mind not to do long time ago and of course my religion & my belief in God has everything to do w/ it......so it wouldn't be a problem to date both of them at the same time...[incidently they both are of my faith, which made everything much nicer and easier] but simply in my mind that i don't think it would work b/w either one of them b/c they and i are not like-minded people...and chances of a successful lasting relationship w/ either one of them is slim...at least that's my thinking...i would like to hear what anyone of you out there thinks about this...thx in advance for any advice here.... :)

jerry, thank u for taking the time and giving me your thoughts and advice on this...i really appreciate it...

i like what u said about weighing out the pros & cons in regards to the changing dynamics of my friendship w/ scott A...gosh, my brain was(& i think still is) so loaded that i couldn't even think straight...thx 4 being my brain here for a while :)...

as w/ scott B, i guess i wasn't all that clear as to what i thought about him...well, w/ scott B, i think that we're compatible on more peripheral elements to a happy relationship such as physical attraction, intellectual abilities, work habits, etc...but the central elements like comfort level & religious commitment level are missing...he's got an attractive personality but he's just not that way with me...i think if he were more himself w/ me, i'd like him better...when he was w/ me, his central concern, as it appeared to be, was gaining grounds w/ me or gaining my approval, as if i were responsible for the way he felt about himself...i, on the other hand, really resent that responsibility...he was very self-conscious & most of the time self-centered...almost sort of stuck on himself...

he & i had a little more complicated history here...about a year ago, he gave me a massage that started from my calves (sorely needed at the time) and ended up everywhere on the back side of my body except the bikkini areas...after he massaged me, he pretty much asked me to massage him...i figured that ok...he was probably sored from massaging me for about 45 minutes or an hour and half (dont remember which)...so, for about 25 minutes, i massaged his back & shoulders, not as extensive as he did w/ me...well, that was the first time in my life that i ever got a massage like that...and first time in my life, i ever massaged a guy...

funny thing happened after that...i felt bound to him as if i belonged to him somehow...went out w/ another guy on my birthday and coudln't touch my date w/o feeling guilty as if i shouldn't have...i couldn't touch another guy w/o feeling guilty for a month after the massage session we had w/ each other...

i never realized that massages could do that to people...i knew that sex was supposed to bind couples together...but little did i know that massages could have similar effects on me...later on i was told that some people considered massages as foreplay...in retrospect i understood experientially how that might be taken as such although the massages never felt sexual to me, might have been that way to him (who knows).. but not to me......had i known what massages could have done, i'd not done it w/ him simply b/c i don't believe that sort of binding effects should exist in friendships or even outside of marriage...

anyway, so our relationship/friendship started a little backwards, i.e. there were not much friendship there before we sort of got physical w/ each other that way...i tried hard to make things work b/w us b/c i felt bound to him during that one month period...and strangely, we had so much miscommunication that both of us wanted to date each other but never ended up even went out on one date or had more than one decent conversation w/ each other...we were playing ping-pong rejection...that is, both of us felt rejected by each other repeatedly...both of us are/were sensitive to rejections...so u can imagine how painful that must have been and perhaps there're still hurt feelings there on both sides....

more than a year later, which was last saturday, he and i had a decent conversation...that was the second decent conversation we had so far after knowing each other for over a year...i didn't want to start anything w/ him so i didn't reply after he said hi to me...then again i saw how much he was aching...i wrote him a 4 page note basically telling him to move on b/c it just aint gonna work b/w us...ended up tossing the note away and started talking to him trying to be friends w/ him only...gosh, i don't know what it is about it...it's like i didn't have the heart to see him ache...so i just started talking to him & trying to let my intentions w/ him known to him (i.e. friends only) but later found that he was trying again as if he wanted to pick up where we left off (that is, the dating part)...i wasn't very responsive to his solicitous/wooing behavior b/c of the concerns previously mentioned...last saturday night, he seemed to care alot about me and yet i just think that b/c of our personality difference, i don't think it would work well b/w us...and of course, there's a possiblity that things could work but i would say that it would have been a lot of adjustments on both of our part...so i was left to myself deciding what to do...that's where the tossing and turning comes from i believe...

personally, i believe Scott B has a lot of growing up to do...

as w/ scott A, although not as physically attracted to him as i am to scott B. , he and i do not have the emotional baggages like scott B & i had w/ each other....my friendship w/ him is one of a happy one...i get all his jokes and laugh alot w/ him...as w/ scott B, i don't think we ever laughed once together...neither one of us is really comfortable w/ each other [i'm never very comfortable w/ super good looking guy...something i probably should work on]...we finally had our second decent conversation over a year after we first met...

ok jerry, does this give u a better picture?

ng

Hi Nightingale. Sounds like you've got quite a dilemma. Interesting that you've been presented with two choices and they are both named Scott. :)

I agree with Jerry. Weigh the pros and cons carefully about how a change in the dynamics of your friendship with Scott A may affect things between you. On one hand, there are some lovely relationships that formed from friendship. On the other hand, once you cross over into a romantic relationship, it's very difficult to be "just friends" if it doesn't work out. Maybe it would be helpful if you two explore your feelings about it together?

About Scott B. Well, you've mentioned several times that you two don't feel comfortable with each other. Trust your instincts. Something inside you is telling you that he may not be the best choice for you. He does seem to rely heavily upon you to... validate (?) him. I can't think of the right word. But, I hope you know what I mean.

I hope you'll be getting more sleep soon once you work through all this. We are here for you. Keep us posted. :)

thank u for your reply whiterose...i think u r right that scott b relies heavily upon my validation...and to me, that's not a very healthy thing i don't believe...i never went out of my way to say anything negative about him to him...what i didn't like was the fact that he often felt rejected right away if i didn't say hi or pay much attention to him...it just appeared to me that my every action or inaction was somehow my way of defining him in his perception...how healthy is that? why should anyone be defined by anyone else's action or inaction? well anyway, got to run and get ready to work...thx 4 your reply, whiterose...i like your idea of following one's instinct...i shall definitely keep that in mind

i don't think it would work b/w either one of them b/c they and i are not like-minded people...and chances of a successful lasting relationship w/ either one of them is slim...at least that's my thinking..
-----------------------
i'm not comfortable w/ scott B and i don't believe he's comfortable w/ me either...i just think it's a waste of time to ever date each other when i really don't think it would work b/w us.............................

but the central elements like comfort level & religious commitment level are missing...he's got an attractive personality but he's just not that way with me...i think if he were more himself w/ me, i'd like him better.....................

as w/ scott A, although not as physically attracted to him as i am to scott B. , he and i do not have the emotional baggages like scott B & i had w/ each other....my friendship w/ him is one of a happy one...i get all his jokes and laugh alot w/ him...as w/ scott B, i don't think we ever laughed once together...neither one of us is really comfortable w/ each other [i'm never very comfortable w/ super good looking guy...something i probably should work on]...we finally had our second decent conversation over a year after we first met...


After reading your posts Im very confused. According to what you have said, I dont see that you have a real love interest in either of these guys, so Im wondering why you feel you have to choose one of them to be a boyfriend. It sounds like you want to keep Scott A as a friend, and the two of you get along well so who says you need to make a move to turn it into more when it sounds like friendship is all you feel for him.
It sounds like Scott B isnt really anything you want and you seem to have nothing positive to say about him other than hes super good looking and you hate to see him hurting. If your question is which one of these guys should you get more serious with, I would say neither. They arent the only 2 guys on this planet to pick from. You know what you want in a man, and when the right one comes along, you will know it. Keep Scott A as a friend, and tell Scott B goodbye. Keeping things going with him so he wont be sad , and you wont feel guilty, is not a healthy basis for a relationship.

charo, first of all, thank u for your input...and sorry about the confusion...the fact that i'm not all that comfortable talking about my love life (which is very personal to me) might have created the confusion thru a lot of indirectness....

i think this is more of an issue w/ me b/c i'm feeling my biological clock ticking away here at age 39...i want children and lots of them...so when anyone that's marriageable material comes along, i feel the need to at least give them a try...they both are very good men...things just haven't gone too smoothly b/w me and scott B as b/w me and scott A...

Scott A had expressed a romantic interest in me indirectly in the past but back off b/c i sort of backed away myself b/c i was all that physically attracted to him...

b/c of my own biological clock ticking away, when scott A again showed interest in me, i thought that i'd better give it some thoughts...one of my cousins who was a 4.0 student thruout college and is still very beautiful at age 40, married someone handsome, had said that looks isn't everything...and i've also learned from various people that looks isn't everything...that is why i've been giving Scott A consideration...

as w/ Scott B, we had a lot of miscommunication that caused hurt feelings...i think that some of it was due to the fact that i was (and still am) very inexperienced w/ men...some of it was due to the fact that he's got some growing up to do...

as far as i see from this end, there's a possibility with each one...but i'm just not sure what to do right now...w/ scott A, am i willing to risk our friendship? i don't know...w/ scott B, i see that he has changed his behavior last saturday night...or shall i say that he grew up some... :D...to be fair, i must say that i did some growing up myself too...as far as the comfort level w/ him is concerned, don't know when he and i would get on the same comfort level as scott B & i are on w/ each other...but that's something we both can work on i suppose...i did notice that we were a bit more comfortable w/ each other than b4...

i grew up w/ some experience w/ betrayal...so i often put guys thru the crucible of character scrutiny before i give them trust and emotional support...w/ scott A, i can trust him w/ my life...i believe that's one of the reasons why he and i get along so well...as w/ scott B, i do not know him all that well...i think he's ok and probably will turn out fine...it's just that some of the things he told me caused me concerns...things that's important to me such as my religion...i did not feel that he has as strong of a testimony as i do...and i got the impression that he was expecting the woman in his life to change him ...he had told me that i had great faith and that was something he was lacking...i, on the other hand, never was and am not and don't plan on being the type of woman out to change men...he's either had to come the way i want or out he goes...he bore his testimony once and it didn't sound like much of a conviction...and that concerned me and still bothers me somewhat...not sure if he really came from a family of agnostic/skeptists or he was just saying so (i.e. that i had greater faith than he had) to make me feel as if i were needed...that's something to find out i suppose...i think that a part of me didn't trust scott B b/c of the way he rejected me after he felt rejected by me (i never intentionally made him feel rejected)...so gosh, i'm really glad that i'm thinking outloud here...i finally see the root problem of my concern about Scott B here...trust due to the unknowns...that's it...

thank u Charo, Whiterose, & Jerry for helping me think outloud here...it really helped...i really appreciate it :)

i think i will be able to sleep better tonight now :)

You're very welcome. I hope everything works out for you. :)

I agree, on the one hand, with that Amina said... if you're having to talk yourself into doing something you're not 'feeling' then it probably isn't right. But, I think that applies generally and not specifically.

When dealing with an 'engineers' mind, I think what you mean is really a highly analytical mind. And given that, it's a mind much, much less based in normal sensory imput. Therefore, ever getting past the 'what the heck do I make of these sensations' part of the deal is one that ends up taking so much time you lose out on any of those potentials where you're 'feeling it' because you've spent so much time analyzing the feeling that what you were analyzing has gone off to further adventure the sensory imput available out there.

Now, I'm kind of saying this from a sort of inside-outside perspective. My son has Asperger's disorder (a form of autism) and one of the main symptoms of it is that on the one hand, he is utterly brilliant and deeply analytical, but his senses completely overwhelm him and practically paralyze him. He doesn't know how to make sense of things like emotion, tone of voice, etc. Therefore, he is somewhat socially inept. Nightingale, I'm not saying this as any kind of comparison to you... Just that I kind of understand how unbelievably different all of our minds can be!

I think you are over analyzing the situation. You really DO NOT have to choose. But, I'm going to go against the status quo here, because I really don't think Scott A is what you want. You value his friendship dearly, and yes... it can blow up in your face and you could lose a friend. I married a friend and that blew up in my face, BIG TIME.

Scott B makes you uncomfortable, but from further extrapolation (teehee) of your following posts, you also state that you've seen him grow. But, you worry you're not on the page "faith" wise. Obviously this IS an issue for you, but he is a member of your church, nightingale. If he was raised a veritable heathen (like me), and converted to your religion, he isn't going to be as deeply ingrained into the thought pattern as someone who came to it either through birth or through an absolutely life chattering need to cling to a faith. (And I don't mean any of those words in a negative light, as I have a tremendous respect for those OF pretty much any faith). He CHOOSES to be a part of that religion, and that is sooooo much harder than you think. He wants deeply to learn more and become more of the faith driven within your church and community. Is this any less an honorable choice? Is it any less valid because he admits to a different upbringing and his testimonial was not quite as deep as others whose faith is more solid?

And sometimes, the 'discomfort' you might be feeling, especially if your mind is the analytical and faith driven sort (not one and the same), might just be 'chemistry.' You know, the unacceptable 'lust' that really is one of the main reasons two people explore interpersonal relationships in the first place, because they 'click' on that level, they are interested to delve deeper into the other levels.

So... going against the status quo here... I'd say give Scott B another opportunity to date. Keep Scott A as a friend. If things don't work out with Scott B, then look around for someone else who you ARE attracted to. :D

Oh, it can be SO confusing, can't it?
~phosphorescent

You're trying to solve a thing like love as if it's a math problem.

Trust in the abundance of the Universe. There are billions of men on this planet. Probably at least 500,000 named Scott.

THE ONLY reason a man and a woman should be together, is because the chemistry between them is electrifying. They simply can't stand to be without eachother. They both want the same things from life, and want to share it with this other incredible person who enhances their own life 100%. I respect your wishes to be celibate during your dating period, or courtship, if you will, but if you were with the right guy, you'd be losing your mind for the fact that you weren't having sex with him!:D That's what it's like to be in love. If your feelings are only so-so, then as the others said, just be friends with both of them and keep an eye out for the guy who makes you melt just by making eye contact with you!

Originally posted by Amina315
[B]I feel like I was re-taking the SATS while reading this post...

I think the answer should be something like "Scott A will arrive at destination C at approx. 3:30 pm, while Scott B is still traveling north by north west parallel to the train that Scott A used to arrive by 3:30 pm"

I mean really, I had LSAT flashbacks...

sorry, anima, to give u a headache there...this is something i was trying to say...b/c my brain is wired differently, my communication style would be different and this is often a source of misunderstandings b/w me & most people....esp. b/w my older sister and me...and both scotts got my sister's personality...so it's logical for me to conclude that things would not work out b/w me and either one of them...


But anyway...I think you already answered your questions. These guys are not "engineers"...one is a good friend, one is good looking...but those two factors often have very little to do with relationship chemistry...if it was there, you would know it...

i believe there's a lot of chemistry b/w scott b and me...& i believe that's where the source of discomfort comes from...he tried very hard to be perfect or the man he thought i wanted to get my approval...and i...hehe..thought that i might have tried too hard to play cool just so i wouldn't scare him away...something really weird happened b/w me and him after one massage session...right afterwards, he looked as if he were hypnotized and was selling himself to me...but i on the other hand never went w/ my hormones and always used my head when dealing w/ guys i don't know very well or have not developed any trust in...so i was just "uhuh, uhuh" away there...the next time we expected to see each other and did see each other was in another church dance...and i found out that he didn't have ANY sleep the night b4...and was still in somewhat of a daze[hypnotized?] even after he returned from a week & half of his family reunion...

It sounds to me like you need to talk yourself into going either way...and that's not a good sign...when something is right, feels right, or is something you want to indulge in you don't need to talk yourself into it...nor do you need to weigh the pros and cons of two individuals b/c when you really dig someone there is just no comparing them...

But that's just my .02

that's definitely something to think about for sure...i never quite thought of it that way though... thank u very much for taking the time and respond to my inquiry...really appreciate it :)

Originally posted by fos4snt
I agree, on the one hand, with that Amina said... if you're having to talk yourself into doing something you're not 'feeling' then it probably isn't right. But, I think that applies generally and not specifically.

When dealing with an 'engineers' mind, I think what you mean is really a highly analytical mind. And given that, it's a mind much, much less based in normal sensory imput. Therefore, ever getting past the 'what the heck do I make of these sensations' part of the deal is one that ends up taking so much time you lose out on any of those potentials where you're 'feeling it' because you've spent so much time analyzing the feeling that what you were analyzing has gone off to further adventure the sensory imput available out there.

gosh, phosy, u hit it right on the head there...like i said b4, i'm too much of an engineer minded person sometimes that i'm so out of touch w/ even my own feelings ...girlfriend, u truly amaze me sometimes with your insightfulness...

Now, I'm kind of saying this from a sort of inside-outside perspective. My son has Asperger's disorder (a form of autism) and one of the main symptoms of it is that on the one hand, he is utterly brilliant and deeply analytical, but his senses completely overwhelm him and practically paralyze him. He doesn't know how to make sense of things like emotion, tone of voice, etc. Therefore, he is somewhat socially inept. Nightingale, I'm not saying this as any kind of comparison to you... Just that I kind of understand how unbelievably different all of our minds can be!
phosy, once again u amaze me here with your ability to see the connectivity of things and that once again i must say that u hit it right on the head here... scott b has been on my mind since last saturday night and he's there CONSTANTLY....

I think you are over analyzing the situation. You really DO NOT have to choose. But, I'm going to go against the status quo here, because I really don't think Scott A is what you want. You value his friendship dearly, and yes... it can blow up in your face and you could lose a friend. I married a friend and that blew up in my face, BIG TIME.

phosy, u r truly one amazing woman here...u got the brain and the heart to see underneath my verbage there...i echo jerry's sentiment in one of his threads...i'd date u if i were a guy :D

Scott B makes you uncomfortable, but from further extrapolation (teehee) of your following posts, you also state that you've seen him grow. But, you worry you're not on the page "faith" wise. Obviously this IS an issue for you, but he is a member of your church, nightingale. If he was raised a veritable heathen (like me), and converted to your religion, he isn't going to be as deeply ingrained into the thought pattern as someone who came to it either through birth or through an absolutely life chattering need to cling to a faith. (And I don't mean any of those words in a negative light, as I have a tremendous respect for those OF pretty much any faith). He CHOOSES to be a part of that religion, and that is sooooo much harder than you think.

the fact that he's as good looking as he is and still a virgin at 48, said to me a lot about his conviction...he's no gay for sure...i had thought that he might be gay but many people told me that no way...and i really couldn't see that in him either ...i have a gay guy friend and i know that there's no way that scott b is gay...

He wants deeply to learn more and become more of the faith driven within your church and community. Is this any less an honorable choice?

no, phosy...it's just that as far as i know in these last days each person must have his or her own testimony and really can't lean on someone else's...and i do not plan on changing my man ever...so whatever he is will be...i wouldn't try to manipulate him into more like me etc...i got the impression that he sort of expects women to do things like that to a guy.......

Is it any less valid because he admits to a different upbringing

both of his parents never went to the church although professed to believe in the religion had dropped him and his siblings to church every sunday growing up


and his testimonial was not quite as deep as others whose faith is more solid?
i c your point there...u r right, phosy

And sometimes, the 'discomfort' you might be feeling, especially if your mind is the analytical and faith driven sort (not one and the same), might just be 'chemistry.'

gosh, phosy, i wished that i had read this early ...it would have saved me a lot of typing :D

You know, the unacceptable 'lust' that really is one of the main reasons two people explore interpersonal relationships in the first place, because they 'click' on that level, they are interested to delve deeper into the other levels.

So... going against the status quo here... I'd say give Scott B another opportunity to date. Keep Scott A as a friend. If things don't work out with Scott B, then look around for someone else who you ARE attracted to. :D

Oh, it can be SO confusing, can't it?
~phosphorescent

u totally rock, girlfriend... ^_^

p.s. this thing is totally funny...wouldn't let me put in some happy faces...strange

Originally posted by Polly
You're trying to solve a thing like love as if it's a math problem.
wow, interesting observation, polly

Trust in the abundance of the Universe. There are billions of men on this planet. Probably at least 500,000 named Scott.
hahha...ok...i guess i must like that name so much huh ;) ...seriously, it is truly a coincident that they both got the same first name...got nothing to do w/ me liking the name or not :p

THE ONLY reason a man and a woman should be together, is because the chemistry between them is electrifying. They simply can't stand to be without eachother. They both want the same things from life, and want to share it with this other incredible person who enhances their own life 100%. I respect your wishes to be celibate during your dating period, or courtship, if you will, but if you were with the right guy, you'd be losing your mind for the fact that you weren't having sex with him!:D That's what it's like to be in love.
please see my response about this in this thread to phosy and someone else i don't recall the nick right off the bat right now...yes i do know what u mean there...and i think that we both want each other and perhaps too much so and tried too hard and i believe that is why it hasn't been working like it really should and could have

If your feelings are only so-so, then as the others said, just be friends with both of them and keep an eye out for the guy who makes you melt just by making eye contact with you!

u know, polly, for the past three days, i have this image of him staring at me on my mind every time when i thought about him...he IS still on my mind CONSTANTLY since we last parted ...i think that i'm just scared here and trying to find all sorts of excuse to not face the fears here...now i got to explore further what those fears are and how to overcome them ...thank u very much for taking the time to reply to my inquiry

dane, something is wrong w/ this thing...it wouldn't let me put in any faces ....urggggggggggg

Originally posted by sally
where's my hockey stick!...I'll show you sensory...

THWACK!

....nothing analytical about that!:D

*** hahaha, very funny sally...yes we need some lightheartedness around here :p

whiterose, thank u for putting my thread in the relationship support forum...really appreciate it :)

You're quite welcome. :)

Originally posted by Amina315
Ok after reading Fossy's post, and after reading your further explination of Scott B, I'd defintely say to give him a try...

And also...my SO and I are total (TOTAL!!!) opposites...and in the wise words of my mama (edited for this situation) "Two engineers married to each other would drive each other nuts! We need someone around to balance us out"

Good luck!!!

first of all, anima, please do not feel bad for not giving me fossy's kind of response...fossy and i are good friends...so i think that naturally she would know me better...and my convoluted thinking and communication style is not always easily understood...so it's only natural and normal for u and most people to not see thru my verbages :p...

thank u so much for the encouragement, anima...i think that i need guts and stop doubting myself and just go for it...w/ as much effort as i've seen scott b had been making to please me, to be the kind of man he thought i wanted, i must say that i have little chance to fail w/ him...so heck, just go on and fellowship him the way i fellowship all my other friends but flirt w/ him a bit more w/o the expectation of him reciprocating...actually he was flirting w/ me last saturday night...if for nothing else, i'd gain a friend :) once again thank u for taking the time and giving your thoughts and encouragement...i need all the emotional support i can get :)!

p.s. i think u r right on about the balancing thing...i've been thinking long and hard about the kind of man i need...he's definitely got the part that i'm missing...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sally
[B]
...my comments were to Nightengale directly, in the hope of creating a distinction between the sentiment of "thinking" like an engineer, as she mentioned, and analyzing things to death, as women sometimes do!

sally girlfriend, i think i belong to the latter ...this dane engineer mind works overtime most of the time...had to analyze everything and being in control of herself constantly esp in relationship w/ men...it's like i couldn't allow myself to just feel all the feelings of attraction to scott b...in the beginning when he acted overly stimulated by my physical appearance, i just thought that he was a bit nuts when in fact i was the one that was somewhat abnormal here(as it seemed from all of your responses so far :D)...most people would just allow themselves to be living on cloud 9 (out of lust or what have u) being so flattered by someone being so attracted and actually are attracted to that someone...but no, not me...i had to control how i felt about him by thinking instead of feeling it simply...yes i'm guilty of overanalyzing....i thought about being the friend stuff...gosh, it just wouldn't work b/w me and him b/c there're simply too much chemistry b/w us to be doing the simple friendship thing w/ each other...the way he related to me last saturday was very clear...there's definitely a romantic interest there [darn, i'd better be careful w/ those faces...i can't put too many ...if i could have, i'd put about 20 in this line ]


Wasn't being defensive or trying to invalidate your comments!

...obviously, my failure to accomplish this, was due to a lack of exercising pure logic in my explanation...go figure!:D

Let me go put on a nerd outfit and see if it inspires me!

hahahahahahahah...sally, u r soooo funny , girlfriend!!!!! thanks for putting in your 2 cents and your lightheartedness...as i was reading so many relationship support posts, i must say that we really need it around here :D!!!

Originally posted by sally
After working in the enginering field for over 25 years...I have come accross every way shape and form of person...all under the guise of ENGINEER. I would be the last person to generalise that all engineers are alike... from their personality traits to their interests or by the way they dress or conduct their lives.

sally, keen observation indeed....i must say that lots of engineer minded people are often not in the engineering field as i had seen in the various work fields i'd been in for the past 2 decades

A keen or even profound sense of logic...does not an engineer make....and by the way, engineering encompasses a high degree of creativity and a certain intuitiveness with regard to problem solving, quite often.

indeed, sally!!!

We are people too. We don't approach things in life with a didactic attitude. We ain't like this and we ain't like that...we just is! ...some of us blatantly attired as nerds and some of us a little punky! Each and everyone of us is unique...just like every IT person, teacher or nurse etc... We all bring different strengths and weakness to our chosen field....the common denominator being our title only.

once again, u r so right on here...

So, the lovely Nightengale, is torn between two loves. You feel you are over analyzing things....

yes i'm guilty as charged and they're two loves of mine...it's just that one i'm more physically attracted to than the other...thx 4 the compliment by the way

First of all, I agree with Polly...if the ZING is there it will lead you....and you can't treat love like a math problem...unless you are creating a list of pros and cons and wanting to see what the risk factor is...LOL...and even that isn't something to stop most people.

hahah, gosh, too much hormones are at work here...i woke up this morning suddenly had a series of flashbacks of all our interactions...gosh, i think i'm....hate to use the word but the only one that really fits here...INFATUATED....uhhhhhhhhhh

I do know, that there was much more to consider at first when I became involved with someone 15 years my junior...I did analyze it to death...not because I'm an engineer...but because I'm a woman...and from what I've read here the past two years...it's what we do....otherwise, would this forum exist? In an average week there are several posts from new members asking..."can this work?"

once again, keen observation, sally...u r right, i think it is a woman's thing...now my overanalysis prognosis is exacerbated by the engineer mind...oh dear !!!!!

Love is a scary proposition to most people...it's a risk and exposes our vulnerabilty. Factor in a YM...and initially, it seems to be that same risk, raised to the power of 10...LOL....(thought you might enjoy the silly math analogy)...LOL!

gosh, sally, that's ever so appropriate here...totally right on analogy !!! yes i feel myself so utterly vulnerable here and i saw his vulnerability EVERY TIME w/ me...the very fact that he wants my approval all the time tells me that he's utterly vulnerable here...and now, i really want things to work b/w us...now i'm vulnerable here... the good thing is that he's the older one here...probably soon i'll be posting in the om/ym forum :p...he's 48 and i'm 39

Nightengale...both of these men meet the most basic of criteria...they are responsible, gainfully employed, loving and intelligent men...( in other words...not losers...LOL)

yes u can say that again, sally...and on top of it all, they both got VERY fine manners...i'm just a total sucker for really good/great men...and as picky as i am, those men do not come by as easily...that's why, polly, although there're a gozillion fishes in the ocean...these two just came closest and hard to pass them off...

...follow your heart, pure and simple...love shouldn't be calculated, well at least in my books...it should be wonderfully inexplicable....and gloriously illogical...that's why they are called EMOTIONS!:D

wow, wonderfully inexplicable & gloriously illogical...hm...sounds eloquent...i'll have to think about that one deeper to see the meaning behind it... OR NOT...there i go again w/ my analytical thinking....oopps

....or as Peter Gabriel described it...
"I'm filled with a magic, that a name would only stain."

hugs, Sally
hm...not quite sure what Peter G. meant here...but heck w/ my brain and my analysis here :D...hahha...

thank u for taking the time to reply to my post sally and for such a well thought out response...u rock, girlfriend !!!!

hugs,
ng

Originally posted by Amina315
Please note: I was using "engineer" as an adjective to describe a personality type as was created in the original post of the thread...had the initial analogy been "accountants" I would have said "as my mother says, two accountants might not make the best partners"....I could have inserted just about any word in that sentence...

I wasn't in any way implying that there actually is an "engineer" prototype from which all engineers are molded...I think the initial intent of usage was as Fossy said..someone who is highly analytical...not actually saying that ALL engineers are that way, or possess said qualities...

Aside from re-po men and tow truck drivers who actually tow cars from meters and such, I don't really think there are certain personalities intrinsic to all who do a certain job...

yes anima, u r right on here...there're all sorts of personality in every profession...the interesting thing is that most of us stereotypes...i used to have a professor w/ whom we got each other's sense of humor...w/ everything i said, he cracked up and w/ everything he said, i cracked up...and guess what ? he thought that i should have been a teacher...boy, was he wrong...people saw one aspect of me and often think and i'm this and that...example...my religious club friends used to tell me that i was too jolly to be a math major b/c i was cranking out jokes like there was no tomorrow ...but i only do that 2 out of 7 days a week...the other 5 days, i kept to myself and avoided the social scene...anyway, their assumption made it sounded as if math majors were pretty much bores...funny, isn't it...then my church associates in my home ward often tells me that they thought i was into some sort of computer fields...must be some sort of technical person...funny thing is that i too stereotype the technical people, responded to their comments of me being in some sort of computer person by telling them that i'm not that boring...hahah...what i come to discover that i'm just a nonboring jolly technical sort of person :D

It was word usage for the mere sake of word usage...

My favorite uncle is an engineer and he's just as wacky, hilarious, and over the edge as anyone can be...

i hear ya there sister...i think i can be one of those indeed...

And I am a bookkeeper (until after grad school) and I am just about as liberal, outspoken, unorganized, loud mouthed, and wild as they come....

good 4 u girlfriend!!!

so I can agree first hand that none of us are restricted by the societal perceptions of our career confines.

yup...u r totally right on there, girlfriend :)....thank u so much for taking the time to reply to my post and for all your thoughts put into it...

Originally posted by Amina315
I feel like I was re-taking the SATS while reading this post...

I think the answer should be something like "Scott A will arrive at destination C at approx. 3:30 pm, while Scott B is still traveling north by north west parallel to the train that Scott A used to arrive by 3:30 pm"

I mean really, I had LSAT flashbacks...

But anyway...I think you already answered your questions. These guys are not "engineers"...one is a good friend, one is good looking...but those two factors often have very little to do with relationship chemistry...if it was there, you would know it...

It sounds to me like you need to talk yourself into going either way...and that's not a good sign...when something is right, feels right, or is something you want to indulge in you don't need to talk yourself into it...nor do you need to weigh the pros and cons of two individuals b/c when you really dig someone there is just no comparing them...

But that's just my .02

EXACTLY Amina ! Nightingale, I DO understand what your saying, and you have made it clear, thats why Im saying NEITHER of these guys are the one for you. You just dont LOVE them.Your talking about A is nice BUT and maybe I could LEARN to feel attracted, or B is not right BUT maybe he will change and be what I want etc. No no no no Please, dont let yourself be pressured into picking a man just because "time is running out for you to have children". Nothing is worse than having children and being with a man you dont love and never did. If nothing else, think of the children you want to bring into this world. Believe me its hard enough to work through all the things that come up in a marriage and parenthood with someone you love, who loves you. To try and do it with someone who has different values, or who you arent attracted to, will only create tension, arguing, and unhappiness for you. This in turn will have a very harmful affect on your children....and on you as you try and be a good mom. I truly believe if you choose either of these men not only will you be unhappy, but I doubt they will be very happy either with someone who really doesnt love them or feel attracted to them.Please think this over Nightingale. Mr Right could be right around the corner, and you will miss it by settling for someone you KNOW is not really what you want.

... is one that I happen to have to a degree, so here's my engineered analysis: You're uncomfortable moving your' relationship with Scott A beyond friendship, so don't. You're uncomfortable with Scott B, so dating him probably is not a good idea.

Now, for my musician, artistic mind. My own GF and I were friends for a couple of years, and I was very hesitant to express my feelings to her for fear of ruining a fantastic friendship. In the end, I decided that I couldn't live with myself if I said nothing to her and then forever wondered what coulda shoulda or woulda, so I told her how I felt. That was almost a year ago, and I have to say that it was the smartest decision I have ever made in the area of relationships. Our strong friendship provided a high comfort level and we had a relationship basis that didn't require a physical relationship (like yourself, my GF and I do not believe in physical relationships outside of marriage due to our religious beliefs, although I have kissed her).

It is very important to have that strong friendship, otherwise when you are not feeling romantic, you have nothing.

I wish you the best,

DanE

charo & DanE,

thank u both very much for your replies...i do believe friendship is very important ...i heard that 95% of the most successful marriages are made of best friends before and after marriages...so i'm a strong proponent of having friendship as a foundation ...

w/ scott b, he was pretty enamored by my physical appearance [not to put myself down...it's not that i was soooo good looking...i think that he just happened to find me attractive]...i on the other hand was much more able to control my emotions...so i didn't look as enamored by his looks like he were by mine...two years prior to last year, when i first saw him, i thought to myself...gosh, what a handsome guy...then i walked on thinking that i never had much luck w/ super good looking guys...so why bother...he looked unreachable back then...then two years later, it crossed my mind several times that "hm...he looks like someone i could marry"...while i was just capivated by that idea in my head, he popped into my face and said a very friendly Hi...i wasn't prepared to engage w/ him at the time...so i just said hi and walked away...anyway, i think that after over a year, he learned just as well as i had to simply put aside his reaction of being attracted to me and just talked to me...so i think we got a good friendship going here...

just recently, i lost my new temp job...it only lasted 2 days...this happened after 4 days of insomnia and not being able to concentrate feeling as if i were in some sort of a daze, couldn't even think straight...scott b had been and still is on my mind since last saturday night...well, lack of sleep can really impedes one's performance ...on top of the lack of sleep thing, i got him on my mind the whole time...boy, was i not myself at all...so i lost it...but i know that i'm in God's hands...so something will turn up soon...

i found out from scott b last saturday night that his window cleaning business had basically grown from 4 clients to over 100 clients ever since he recently closed his hardware store...maybe he could use some help cleaning windows...now, that would be a real good chance to get to know him better...i'm hoping to see him this friday night in church dance and then talk to him...i will have to pray more about this and get some Divine guidance as to what to do here...if it's meant to happen b/w us, then it will...not gonna worry now ...God sure works in mysterious ways :)

by the way, i'm really glad that u posted about u and your g/f so i don't feel so alonely here upholding and living what i believe :)...

thank u very much for your reply...

God bless,
ng :)

p.s. Charo, did u get a chance to read my replies to anima and sally and fossy's replies?

Yes I did read them Nightingale but not till after I had posted.
:o Anyway I was glad to see you say this
.i will have to pray more about this and get some Divine guidance as to what to do here...if it's meant to happen b/w us, then it will...not gonna worry now ...God sure works in mysterious ways

:D

thank u charo for taking the time to respond...i appreciate your caring :) hugs, ng :)

gosh, talking about feeling irrational...boy, i couldn't believe how apprehensive i felt last night thinking about going to church dance together w/ scott b tonight after being in his house for an hour...yesterday as i thought about my jobless situation and launching off my own business as an office solution specialist, while i was exercising after cleaning, suddenly it came to me about offering business services to scott b since his window cleaning clients grew from 4 to 100+...i ended up calling him and talking to him a bit about my work as an office solution specialist...he ended up inviting me to his house...and then suggested going to the dance together...

gosh, i was apprehensive and couldn't sleep and finallly had to explore where my apprehension came from...mind u that i was never invited to being in a guy's house by myself with him...let alone a super good looking guy's house alone with him...b/c i didn't know him as well as i know scott A, so i was a bit apprehensive about being raped, hearing so many stories about rapes and date rapes...

then i realized how irrational that was...gosh, so far everything he had shown should not have given me any concern of this sort...my goodness, being raped by a virgin would probably make the headlines...what was i thinking...

yes i was feeling a bit apprehensive and overwhelmed w/ the idea of hooking up w/ a super good looking guy...if we ever do what we have planned on doing tonight, he would have been the first super good looking guy i ever went out with...gosh, it seems like everything w/ him is a first...first massage exchange session ever, first guy i had such a hard time w/ getting together, first guy i'm ever so physically attracted to, first time being invited to a guy's house, a super good looking guy's house...first guy i thought there might be a possibility of a serious long term relationship, possibly marriage...wwwwwooooooooow...a bit more apprehensive than my usual calm self....

well, i'm just gonna go out and have a good time after accessing his business needs...

wish me luck here, u wonderful ageless people :D...

luv,
ng

Originally posted by sally
Beginning to think that I was born with some kind of recessive DATING GENE!

hahhaha...very funny sally ...

For me, dating is an opportunity to get to know someone better on different levels....in a more intimate level (get yer minds out of the gutter...I ain't referring to sex) If in getting to know them well over a period of time, and we mutually MESH, then they become a candidate to pursue a LTR with, which is hopefully reciprocated.

Nightengale, please forgive me, perhaps I mis-read something in your previous posts...but I am a bit confused.

...you haven't had the opportunity to get to know Scott B on a deeper level...but you consider him "marriage material"?

As Spock would say...
"I find this highly illogical!" LOL!

this is the part i worry about the most, i.e. COMMUNICATIONS...apparently i miscommunicated something here to u...and b/c i'm really lacking in the interpersonal realm, miscommunications w/ most people is a real source of frustrations to me way too often...miscommunications b/w u and me here happened quite frequently b/w scott b and me...and this is where i really would like to find out whether it would work b/w me and him...i thought he was marriageable according to my standards and ideals of what qualities a husband would possess...by no means that he and i would definitely work out...i hope this helps to clear some air here...

on my way back from a self employment workshop this afternoon, i kept thinking to myself...gosh, this communication part b/w scott and me would be really interesting to find out...he's great in the interpersonal realm that i'm really lacking....i was tested out to be high on 6 out of 7 areas on a couple of career aptitude tests and in the interpersonal realm i didn't even have the pasting grade...so it's pretty bad here alright...i'd be VERY grateful if scott b & i could maintain a friendship effortlessly...

as far as expectations of LTR is concerned. i do not have that...i hope i communicated what i'm trying to say here and/or what u r trying to tell me here above...have i, sally?

If you get to know him and decide he's NOT the one, you have "set him up to be", wouldn't you be disappointed in your future hopes being dashed by him falling OFF this preconcieved pedestal?

...as opposed to discovering, that he is just not the ONE, simply by virtue of who he is...(which isn't his fault, but just the reality of him?)

I would just hate to see you disappointed by placing too much emphasis on such a profoundly big picture, before you actually get any film in your relationship camera...LOL

dear sally, thank u very much for being concerned of my welfare here...i really appreciated you and other many wonderful ageless friends here looking out for me and the rest of us here...

(I obviously have a recessive metaphor gene!)

gosh, i sure hope not ...LOL

Have witnessed quite a few women here doing that, with unhappy consequences...anyway, just a few rambling thoughts there....

ramble on please ;) girlfriend :)!!!

hugs,
ng

Have you been to his house and to the dance yet? If not, then good luck with it Nightingale! Just relax and have fun.

sally,

it's hard for me to explain to you my views on what's marriageable and what not...i'm deeply rooted in my religion that what marriageable qualities i consider may not necessarily be the ones that you're looking at or thinking about...

it would be meaningless to itemize it w/o relgious context which i don't think i can give at this time ...it will take a lot of time and space to put it all down in writing......

so i'm just going to let this one go...

**************

as an update to my semni-date w/ him, let me just say that i saw him last night and this afternoon and that i don't think he is the one...

we really have a very big communication gap and i know the underlying problems to it and i don't feel like going into it at this moment either...it will be another long story here...

let me just say that i learned a couple of lessons here...

one, to always be sensitive to others feelings...

two, to appreciate what's been given regardless....

last night he and i had a very didactic conversation in which b/c of the way he pushed me, i resolved a problem i had for 2 decades and never felt so grown up...it was some shocking experience as well as life changing moments for me...wow, very powerful...i felt vey empowered afterwards...the next morning, i was in shock...i think that his message was good but the way in which he delivered the message was not something i would recommend to others...i'm still in somewhat of a shock b/c how life changing it was the little time we spent in a meaningful conversation and b/c of the way he communicated his message, i'm resolute about being careful w/ others' feelings from now on...

before i went to his house, i prayed that the chemistry wouldn't make us do anything we would regret later...

funny how when i got there, sitting face to face across him, i looked at him and listened to the way he talked, i felt absolutely no attraction to him...not physically or emotionally...suddenly the thought came to me...he's not the guy i was looking for...the more interesting thing is that a year ago, he stood across me looking right at me while we were dancing together, i felt no physical or emotional attraction to him either...at that time, it was w/o a prayer...

when i saw him from a distance he looked really handsome but when seen closd up, i got this i don't know feeling...

my feelings of attraction to him didn't occur till after our two hour massage session...i really think that that sort of stuff really messes up people's brain, creating feelings b/w ppl that might not always be warranted for the type of relationship they have w/ each other...anyway, i found out last night that apparently the single's ward bishop talked to him about the massages he gave to people...he implied that i shouldn't have gone to the bishop about it...the truth was, i never went to the bishop about it except talking to a few friends about it b/c i was feeling so bounded to him but never made reference to his name...he's the only guy that gives out massages to girls...so it would be hard to miss the fact that it might have been him when the sisters in the RS board reported to the bishop in their weekly leadership council about how each sister was doing...and i don't doubt that what i told a sister about my feelings of boundedness to him was born of a massage session was passed into the bishop's ears...last night, i guess i was in shock that i didn't catch what he was implying or was too shocked to realize what he was implying until after our meeting...anyway, i finally clarified this w/ him about it this afternoon again after leaving two messages on his answering machine...don't know he bought it or not...but don't care at this point...last night when he talked to me about it, he totally denied that he was at all affected or felt stronger of attraction for me after the massages...i know that was a lie...which i understood and excused...

the man is a good man but i don't think that i would want to talk to him any time soon...

am i disappointed? hm....no in the sense that i had no expectation of a LTR w/ him...yes in a sense that i don't think he would be one of those ppl i would be able to talk w/ sensitivity w/...

i'm still in shock b/c of the way he conveyed his messages to me...the messages were great & commonsensical in hindsight, a life changing moment for me...something i was ready to hear...but the way in which he communicated left me w/ the feeling that i don't think i will talk to him any time soon or at my leisure time...

so i got some mixed feelings here...gosh, relationships in general are just so complicated...so beyond me...

there're so many different kinds of feelings (both positive and negative ones) going on here that i don't know what to tell u all....b/c of the messages he delivered, i felt this part of me that was laying dormant for 14 years and some part laying dormant for even longer than that, were suddenlly revived...it was such a liberating experience...i felt myself so free to love when i was in one of my IT classes today mingling w/ my classmates...something that i had not done for a long time (over 14 years)...

i'm still trying to make sense of everything...the re-emerged me or the reclaimed self...and how she will relate to others...something that is both shocking and surprising, empowering as well as refreshing...so difficult to feel all these feelings at once... i think that's why i don't know which feeling i'm feeling right now...just need some time to just let myself feel all those emotions...

thanks for all you caring wonderful ageless friends here....i really appreciate the asking :)

luv & hugs,
ng

p.s. upon hearing about ppl's problems, i had always thought their perplexing problems had a simple solution to it each but never was able to see that in my own problem even when i thought that mine would also have a simply solution to it b/c i'm no different than anyone else......

he blatantly pointed that out to me and b/c i was ready to hear it, it became a life changing moment for me....i'm telling u guys this hoping that if any of u out there struggling w/ something u feel that is very difficult and almost impossible to overcome like i did w/ mine for 20 years, u would feel there's a light at the end of your tunnel and that there is a solution to it & the solution might be a lot less complicated than u think...