Waiting so long...

Hi all,

Greetings from the Netherlands.
I would like to meet some people who are in the same situation as I am or have had these experiences as well. For comfort, information and chit chat.

For six years now I have been in Love with a 17 year older woman who happens to be married with 3 children. Almost all have left the house, one needs to find a home. (21) I know that she loves me very much and the feeling is mutual.
The past years have been really hard on me and her. Many times were unbearable, fighting mixed thoughts and feelings. Having tried almost everything you can think of, you know it is still she who holds the keys to realise what I have been longing for, for a very long time.

The woman has a hard time making difficult choises because she was raised to care for all but herself. Her husband only made that worse since he is very short-sighted (however you'd say that). Never cuddles or kisses and after 35 years of marriage she is really missing affection and attention.

There is really too much to mention what happens in 6 years of constantly transitional times, so I am keeping it short.


Let's see if I can find some friends around...

bYe
F.

Hi F,

One question--is your woman friend still married to the husband you speak of?

Peace,
thatgirl

Yes, she is still married. At first we wanted to do everything by the book but since years passed we didn't want to lose eachother and I became the 'secret' lover.

I am trying however to have last one try before she will have to decide or leave me behind forever.

Though I have tried it before and dated other girls, there was simply no match by far of what we have/had.


Part of this has been due to longing and waiting for eachother, which makes it the more worth. I do know this. But I am not aiming for that alone and she knows.

When she was 'whining' her husband hit her. So she was living mostly just to give others their way, just the way she was brought up.
The husband is loved though by the kids because he plays his role well, but does this also to manipulate.

When she comes home, she so easily falls into her role of pleasing others, though that has changed a lot now. Through the years she has grown in many ways.

I really hope that things turn out well with her youngest daughther. One time she heard one of our conversations over the phone and after that she only calls her mother a ***** and such things.


She does not know but I have set my ultimatum before the end of this year. I am 35 and she is 52... I have been alone for 7 years now after a relationship of 10 years...

*sigh*
F.

But many people in the world have been where you are ~ although you usually only read in advice columns about the other 'woman,' and rarely the other 'man.'

BUT, I don't think the advice offered to women who are engaged in an adulterous relationship should really be any different than that offered to a man in the same situation.

Six years is a long time to be waiting around for someone to... to what? Up and leave her husband? Is that what you're waiting for?

Now, I'm really going to try to not be judgemental, but you know... as many times as you read about relationships like this, they always, always end with someone getting hurt and people living with hurt for years. Why would you do that to yourself? Letting yourself get strung along like that? (I'm trying to focus on you, here.) Have a little more self-respect. With the millions and millions of women out there, you have to latch onto someone who has strung you along for six years now (with promises, I presume) and you don't have enough self-respect to see that things aren't going to change?

You want to stop being lonely? Find someone else who is available. I'm sorry if you think that isn't entirely fair, but people need to love themselves first by treating themselves with a modicum of decency. You've spent six years doing exactly the same thing you've accused HER of doing... pleasing others.

Find a backbone... and a single woman.
~phosphorescent

It always ends up, me trying to 'defend' what I have and believe for the better.

I know that actually everyone has tried to open my eyes and wake me up. Being inside a relationship makes you see it different, talking, making progress.

At the other hand, I have got a lot of knowledge about myself and how I act and why. I know for myself to get to appreciate things I have to work hard on it, but usually with things in life I try always the easy way out.

I'm not the guy with the 'normal' life that so many others -seem- to have. A very complicated lifestyle, willing to change; but for me too, it takes years and years.
Though I feel lonely sometimes, I still have a lot of joy but I can see your point.

Untill now I haven't had much conversation about this because in real life, I can not talk about this very long because I know where it is going to and in the end I only want to hear that it is going to be alright.
So, I went to google and I finally found what I was looking for without ending up on some pr0n page.

Making love to her is the best and so many things that I have always been trying to do, succeeded.
Yet, I can't imagine it could be so easy to find again though a younger girl or another woman do have other advantages.

I am caught in between those moments of extremely powerful love and my anger and disappointment why I am closer to the one I love.


Keep replying please, I mean if you have something to say about it. I really appreciate it. When this does not work out I will remember your words building a backbone and for sure a single woman.

Thanks,
F.

lol @ amina

Originally posted by Francesco
It always ends up, me trying to 'defend' what I have and believe for the better.

Of course, because common societal standards dictate that being involved with a married person (regardless of age or sex) is wrong. Common sense says the same thing. Why? Because you should treat people how you want to be treated. Would you like to be where her husband is? I mean, don't look at who you've been led to believe HE is through HER eyes.. consider him a man, ANY man, would you want to be in his shoes? I seriously doubt you would.

In fact, you hurt NOW as a result of this relationship. So, while you're creating in your head these mental 'ultimatums' about how long you're willing to wait for her to leave him, why not consider putting yourself in his shoes, because chances are fairly good that if she DOES leave him, and marries you, you will find yourself in his shoes a few years down the line... it's called karma, baby. And that is how the world works, no matter how you want to justify/rationalize in your own head your defense. Instead, why not seek a situation where you don't HAVE to defend yourself all the time. Just a thought. Really not trying to whomp you upside the head, but I think you need a reality check.

Being inside a relationship makes you see it different, talking, making progress.
Of course

[b]I'm not the guy with the 'normal' life that so many others -seem- to have. [b] Oh Francesco! What IS a normal life? I've never known anyone who could DEFINE normal to me. We all have our trials and tribulations, weirdnesses and self-justifications, myopia and hysteria and we're an eclectic hodge-podge of weirdness inside... ALL of us. There are no two people alike, not even identical twins! Define normal to me... cuz I am quite unfamiliar with it. :D This is never a justification for causing pain to yourself or others...

[quote]Untill now I haven't had much conversation about this because in real life, I can not talk about this very long because I know where it is going to and in the end I only want to hear that it is going to be alright.

So, you admit that you only want to hear what you want to hear? This, actually, is a good thing. I find it relatively unlikely that many people here are going to say, "Honey, it's all going to be alright, don't you worry." Because, well, quite bluntly, it won't all be alright. It hasn't been for SIX YEARS. Hear yourself. Hear your own ultimatums. It's not alright. It never has been. It never will be. You can't justify it away, rationalize it out of existence. I really, really wish I could say what you WANT to hear... oh, how I wish I could. But, until we evolve to a society like the Tilarians in "The Demu Trilogy" who have their "most needful person" but still have freedom to explore other interpersonal relationships (because that is their societal understanding, whereas it simply is NOT here in reality), then acceptance OF the realities we have is certainly due.

I went to google and I finally found what I was looking for without ending up on some pr0n page.
Well, you're at the right place for ageless relationships, but probably not the right place for the opinions your seeking on adulterous relationships. (sigh)

I'm caught in between those moments of extremely powerful love and my anger and disappointment why I am (not) closer to the one I love.

Hey, I hear ya. The reason I'm really, really trying not to put you on the EXTREME defensive by balling you out, like I'm sure several people are seriously avoiding :o is that I honestly understand that people DO come to this situation and DO have feelings for married people and while it is still wrong to pursue it, it can be an overwhelming thing... but, I think it goes back to the self-respect thing. If you respected yourself, you would not be strung along for SIX LONG YEARS. You'd have realized the insanity of what you're doing TO YOURSELF.

And since you've come here for advice, my advice to you is still to find a backbone. Seek professional therapy. Remove yourself from a painful situation which just keeps going on and on and on... issue your ultimatum to YOURSELF to not be manipulated and strung along by someone who ultimately doesn't care who she hurts. Oh, yes she does... she doesn't want to hurt her family, but you're open game. :rollseyes:

RESPECT. Find some, for yourself.
~phosphorescent.... honestly now...

I am sure she doesn't want to go through this again. But there are no guarantees from anyone that they are going to stay with you forever.

Thanks again Fos4snt,

You have set me back on my feet a little more because of finding all the right points and addressed them back to me.

I save this whole conversation and pick it up again for sure when I am going to break down all that wishful thinking and hope that I have.

For now, please excuse me, I can't do other than stay in this (?)dream for now. I almost feel to say that I am sorry because I feel guilty being in between them and all I want is for her and myself to be happy. And I know she's not happy there. I noticed she smokes more and drinks a lot now.

F.

After reading your story, I'm going to take a break. It was really sweet of you, the way you brought it.

She is willing to change, but unable to make some last steps. There is one more step I am willing to go through and that is because of her youngest daughter (21). She kind of hates her mother right now and if she leaves now then she might lose her or it will be harder to make things alright between them. So if in any way this can be improved then I will give her some more time. But I will not let years go over it.

I know now in through all of your comments that I have to be looking at myself in a different way with more self-respect. Something you caught out of my story and at the same time, one of my weakest points in life.
Capable of a lot of things, from photography, filming, making music, being a computer nerdy, building up my house to way I like it and being a hopeless romantic dreamer... I never seem to be satisfied with what I know and able to do. Whatever I am capable of is something that I take for granted because if I can do it then it must probably be easy otherwise I couldn't have done it.

Knowing the path of life and walking it seem to be two totally different things for me. Reading back saying: I know, I know... *sigh*

It's just that in some ways, I lack so much self-confidence.

It takes some time to get to know me and then I am sure I can find the right girl but the problem always was to get to spend that quality time with someone who is not engaged, interested in you and you in her.

I am so afraid of losing this feeling that no one else ever had for me and that is how much that woman loves me. We are so happy to see eachother everytime, running to eachother, holding hands, making love the whole day.

She says she feels safe with me and her favorite place is with me.
I almost want to ask the world why she hasn't chosen, yet then... Some lesson I have really learned is that you cannot force love.
Believe me if I have tried to manipulate or being sad or come up with all the facts; she has to make up her own damn mind and -do- it.

gheesh.... I was going to tell my whole life story here but I deleted it.

Anyway, it was good to have thrown it out because I know I have been carrying it for a long time. Not that nobody knows because everyone I know, knows about it.

Somehow this feels like punishment for not being able to see how much worth a reasonable relationship I had and gave up. It was my first relationship and this is my second.

Ofcourse, I have been asking why she hasn't chosen and showed her the fact of unequity in our relationship. All those facts mentioned here; I have thrown at her feet. Seeing the past and the future backwards and forwards when struggeling with your mind, I have thought of most things I could tell and have.

I am waiting for some acceptance point within myself but seeing myself writing here, I know I can not. And I will have to fight it of once more if nothing comes out of it, coming months.


F.

Wow, DragonFly. You said so beautifully what I was trying to say without being condescending or negative.

F: Let me share with you a conversation I had recently with my first ex-husband, who is my quasi-friend. He has been involved with a woman for the last few years who, on the one hand, he loves, but on the other hand, is very unhappy with. He goes through these bouts constantly of feeling unworthy and low about himself. As we sat outside, I asked him how his relationship with S was going and he said, "Well, as usual, it's going... which, I guess beats being alone."

What I honestly wanted to do was grab him by both shoulders and scream at him. He is only with her because he doesn't want to be ALONE? Because he doesn't think anyone will ever love him? WTH?

This guy.. while he has his shortcomings.. is most assuredly not unlovable. The problem is, while he is wasting this poor girls time and leading her on, he is also keeping himself in a position where its impossible for him to meet another woman who might be the right woman for him. It's very sad, from an outsiders perspective, to watch someone you care about hurt themselves and others through inaction and a lack of self-esteem.

While, its important to note and realize you do have a problem with self-esteem, its ALSO very important to realize that no one else can make you feel better about yourself. No one can make you whole. Only you can do that.

There's a really good book out there which I think addresses that in a weirdly, well-told fictional way (which makes it very enjoyable to read) called "The Celestine Prophecies," which you might enjoy reading. But, wholeness comes from within...

.. and I hate to see you hurt yourself, even more than hurting others...

~phosphorescent

...the woman I love is not going to mislead me. The thing is that she isn't willing to make a promise she can not keep.

And I certainly do not intend to hurt her or her family, though to be honest I wouldn't know what I would do if I just let it slip away. Would I take revenge somehow to rectify my feelings because I will feel like she's been playing a joke on me all the time. Even though knowing that you are in it together...

Look... it is not that bad that I think that no one will like me. ADHD used to rule my life and now I am controlling it more, looking calmer on the outside. But I am a person of extreme heights and depths.
Somehow still looking for it in other ways than I have in the past.

But she does make me feel better. I have been alone for 7 years now and it's been good and bad. I have to say that the relationship with her has been broken of a few times by me, trying to start a new life.
At one time I haven't seen and spoken to her for more than a year.
In the beginning I only saw her a few times a year. For the rest of the time we were on the phone once a few weeks or months.

I do feel the pain, when I think back to it. There was nothing of joy in it, only when I heard her voice and after that I felt so down.

Does it sound corny when I feel whole when she's around...?

And I can occupy myself very well. I have enjoyed the freedom, too but after those years I want to be together again, with someone I love of course. Because friends, I do have enough. It's that special someone-feeling that I am missing. And I could not find it in the other girls I have been dating.

After a few weeks, I asked why one girl was dating me and it was only because I was interested in her. Another one just wanted to have a one-night-stand after going through all the trouble. Then there are just some girls who simply are too different from myself.


Cool, I'll try to find the book but it has to be in Dutch as well. Reading is very hard for me already since I can not find the concentration for it. I've only read a handful of books in my entire life.

F.

you know it is still she who holds the keys to realize what I have been longing for, for a very long time.
Well, that would seem to make you powerless, wouldn't it? That would make me feel really lousy. You are giving your power away. Think about that.

I noticed she smokes more and drinks a lot now. People who drink "a lot" are not usually emotionally available to those they love. Have you noticed this?

I am so afraid of losing this feeling that no one else ever had for me and that is how much that woman loves me. There is a difference in "feelings" and reality. Making choices based on feelings is not always wise. When you two are "running" to each other, it may feel like she loves you. HOW DOES IT FEEL when you think about the fact that she refuses to leave her husband? Do you really feel loved then? Wouldn't it be nice to have a feeling and KNOWING, that someone cares enough about you to want to be with you (and ONLY YOU)?

Somehow this feels like punishment for not being able to see how much worth a reasonable relationship I had and gave up. You are PUNISHING YOURSELF by being in a relationship with someone who is unavailable.

Bottom line, yes it will hurt to leave her. But it will not hurt forever. You have a lot of interests. Get involved again and take time to meet women as friends. You can chose to love again and this time.... have it really be right. Good luck.

she never said she'd refuse to leave her husband, other than how can I find a way to leave...

she wonders why the consequences of these choises will have a devastating impact

shame, fear, etc do also play a role. Even more when only started to grow and realise at 45, that things are wrong in your marriage and you are growing angry but she has no one to talk to. She has no friends at all. Always taking care of the family.


F.

I found a short explanation about the The Celestine Prophecies. There is a lot of that which I already live with and probably some lines I can learn something from.


F.