Prenuptial Agreement

Anyone have this or been asked to sign? Just polling for thoughts on this.

I have not, myself, ever been subjected to a pre-nup. But, lots of people have. Why, what's going on?
~phosphorescent

We are talking marriage in the spring. At this moment we are trying to get his home ready to sell and look for another. Though we have never talked about a pre-nup, his ex-wife, mother of his daughter is livid that he is marrying me. She keeps pushing him to do this ( a pre-nup). She is certain that I am about to ruin her profit center. She hates the fact I am 13 years younger than her and 17 younger than him. She hates the relationship that I have with her daughter and the fact that I will bring children into this marriage. She has always felt threatened by this.

I actually have never thought about all this, I don’t really know all what my OM owns, how much stock and stuff. We have only discussed money on a general basis. I know what he makes, he knows what I make and I know that he has property, stock and stuff like that, though I would never ask how much, etc.

Seems to be a common matter these days, I have seen it a lot where younger woman marry older men with a bit of money. I understand the protection and practicality of a pre-nup. I would sign one, though be totally offended, though understand in the same breath. I don’t know, just wondering the reason and would like both sides of the story I guess.

I don’t want to be divorced again. I love him in a way I can’t describe nor have ever felt about a person. It is an amazing relationship that seems to grow everyday while burning a low strong flame. He is everything to me and I cannot picture myself without him in my life. Though every marriage begins like this, people don’t get married to get divorced, it just happens. So on the flip side I understand this.

Just throwing the thought out there…. I don’t know if he will do a pre-nup.

I don't know....it's different for every couple, but I personally have never been asked to sign one. I don't think I would either, it just doen't make me feel right about the person to know that they want to protect what they own in case of a divorce. It's kinda like, where did all the romance go where people come together and what is mine is yours, and yours is mine?? I do understand that the divorce rate is crazy, but I'm just not that kind of gal.
And, I would never ask my man to sign a pre-nup....yes we have a home, but it's both of our home......other than that I have nothin' but shoes....Hmmmmm....

I actually offered to sign one, because my husband had just been through a difficult divorce and is paying alimony forever -- well, until she gets married again, which is unlikely. I wanted him to know that I was ABSOLUTELY not marrying him for his money.

He laughed and said that he certainly didn't want me to sign one, that he trusted that we are both in this for the long haul, and that we didn't need it.

Sorry, I don't have any advice though. Sometimes, even talking about it is enough to show somebody that you are trustworthy. ?

From what I understand, a prenup simply states that both parties keep what they had prior to the marriage, should it fail.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Some people have a whole lot more than others. We've all seen examples of women with hardly a penny to their names marrying men who are well-off, then when the marriage goes bad, trying to rake him over the coals for everything he's got. If you're not in it for the money, a prenup shouldn't even matter in the least. A prenup is actually a protective device for the less well-to-do spouse as well, in that, should the older, wealthier spouse get sick, his wife (or her husband) won't be responsible for medical bills.

I've always thought that when marrying someone with money, it's only fair that should the marriage fail, that person should keep what they had prior to the marriage. Now, during the marriage, you may have helped the wealth grow and contributed your own money, and that should be divided 50/50, but everything prior to should go to whom it belongs. No one should "profit" from a divorce. I think that's completely wrong.

I'd sign a prenup in a heartbeat. Too bad my fiance is friggin poor! :D

Well I've never been asked... to be honest I wouldn't sign one anyway......I feel it's a trust issue.. and whats Mine is his and what his is mine... My husband sold his house and we are using that money to help with our house.... and we don't have a lot but I don't feel it's proper... expecially if you have children....... I don't go into a marriage already thinking of divorce....

However I think its more necessary for Movie stars etc...

I agree with Polly's viewpoint on this. I've never thought tossing out common sense for the sake of loooove was a good idea. Plenty of people do get divorced, and no one knows when they go into a marriage whether they'll be one of those couples. It only makes sense to take some precautions. No one expects to get into a car wreck or fall out of a boat, either, but we still wear seat belts and life jackets.

I'm sure most people would like to think they'd act fairly in the case of a divorce, but traumatic events make people do strange things, and I think it's better to work out practical matters when you're in a less emotional state of mind. This is all even more important when there are children from previous relationships. Divorces are hard enough without one party going through the ringer financially, and I think if you have an agreement at the outset it will make it easier to remain cordial after a split.

Thanks for the replies. I actually just took MadBess’s thoughts, I just asked him about it. You know it has to have slipped past his mind at some point. He too went through a hard divorce in which he had to give a lot of money to his ex along with child support payments that equal more than I make per month.

I told him that if he was thinking about it, and that we didn’t have to talk about it, that I would sign it. He looked at me and smiled and said that he wasn’t worried about a prenup. I kinda did feel relived, I want him to know I am about him and not his money.

I actually talked with a person who has one and they did it for the kids, due to some states like CA which is a community property state. Everything you have can be divided once you are divorced leaving you and your children with nothing. Who knows……….

I would still sign one, if I agreed to what it said and it was to protect his child, I would understand.

I agree completely with Mera.....I just wouldn't feel comfortable knowing that my SO wants me to sign a prenup......I would begin to question how serious he is about me and what his level of trust is.......for me, its got to be complete and utter trust 'with your eyes shut', my man should know what kind of person I am & god forbid if there ever was a divorce I would expect both people involved to act like mature adults and not rob each other of anything.

I used to feel the same way a lot of you do, when I was younger. I'm 42 now. When I was in my 20's, I thought prenups were horrible, and the people who signed them were clearly shallow and materialistic. I believed that a marriage was built on complete, mutual trust and respect, and a prenup was just minimalizing all of that and making it a business deal instead of a blessed union.

Then I got married, and later, got divorced.

I have to tell you something. When I married my (now) ex-husband, I thought he was the greatest man in the world. That's why I was marrying him. I never in my wildest dreams imagined he'd be such a horrible father, abusive husband, and cheat on me! Never! I married when I was 24.

I am 42 now. I've seen people I thought were pure as the driven snow turn into complete opportunists during a divorce. At my age, sadly, I've seen a lot of divorces. They are very, very seldom civil and agreeable. Most often, they are ugly, trivial, back-stabbing, and disheartening. The more money is involved, the longer they take, and the more people on both sides are dragged through the mud. A prenup would save people from all of that.

I believe in Robin. At my age, I think I know now who I can and cannot trust. If he asked me to sign a prenup, I wouldn't feel badly or think twice. Life involves money, and money gets complicated. Robin doesn't have much now, but some years down the road, at the rate he's going, he'll actually have quite a bit. I'll never cheat on him or betray him in any way, but my medical condition might end up costing him if we don't iron that out now. On my end, my house is in my name. My kids need to finish growing up here. If something would happen to me, and the property went into probate, and then went up for public auction, they'd be without their home.

I used to think prenups were evil, and for rich, greedy, shallow people. Now I think they make perfect sense. It's not about a marriage failing, although some do. It's about insurance of personal property should something tragic happen. When people die, trying to get what is yours is even worse. Everything that the deceased had a name on, goes into probate, from what I understand. Any one of us could get hit by a bus tomorrow, or have an aneurism. The older I get, the more it makes sense to me to compartmentalize finances and have all my ducks in a row.

I have to agree with Polly,
Its an unfortuneate part of life that a good portion of relationships end nowadays. If there is a large financial gap in the relationship, I think its only natural for the wealthier partner to want to protect themsleves from potential financial abuse. Its like life insurance....you hope that the worst will not occur, but the insurance is invaluable if something very bad does happen.

A will would only work if the house was paid off, which it isn't. In the event that I would die, Robin could, in theory, write the bank, tell them he's been living here and wants to take over the payments. Then, if my kids pissed him off for some reason and he didn't want to take care of them, he could kick them out. They are minors, they have no rights, and they can't take on a house as minors. I'm not saying Robin would do that, but hey, if I became worm food, he'd probably go off the deep end for awhile.

As far as a joint account...again...say I wanted my kids to have my money, as Robin can make his own. I die, Robin gets control of all the money, decides to invest it in an unstable business deal, loses out big time, and my kids are screwed. Some people, especially people who were never taught to handle money, can make bad decisions with the best of intentions and screw themselves and everyone else.

Someone who has worked a long time, and worked hard for their money, who has kids, or has lots of assets, needs to protect these things, especially if he or she marries someone who has nothing, and therefore has nothing to lose. People who decide they don't want to be married anymore, especially people who go into it for the wrong reasons in the first place (I'm not saying that's anyone here, I'm just saying it DOES happen), tend to have an attitude of "entitlement" to their partner's hard-earned money. Anyone who has lived the good life for awhile doesn't want to give it up easily.

That's why when people say, "Even though I don't have anything, I'd walk away with what I came into the marriage with." I tend to not believe them. I've heard it all before, from people who seemed to have the best intentions. I have yet to see someone with nothing, who married someone with money, just walk away from it with only what they had in the beginning. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've never seen it personally. People change, and as Cyndi Lauper once said, "Money changes everything."

I think that by signing a prenup, one is saying, "Here's the proof I don't want your money."

Thanks Polly, I love to hear both sides of people's thoughts and everyone has made a great point. Though our post has helped me understand a bit more, perhaps, his side. Should he do this, I will understand!!

Okay well here is my question, and I don’t really want to address this at this point with my OM. I did state that the ex having a say in all this TOTALLY ANNOYED me! He agreed and said to just let it roll, as you will see from my other post she is a *gem* !

Though he has his life insurance maxed out and cannot get anymore. Should he die, his daughter will get $400,000.00 in the life insurance and another 350,000.00 in Supplemental. The rest goes to his mother at around 250.

My question, when we get married how does life insurance work. I know I will take out a policy on him, though I won’t be able to get much due to his, age and the fact he is a smoker and refusing Blood Pressure meds.

So I think that the ex knows that perhaps he will have to adjust his life insurance and her daughter won’t get as much? I don’t know. I would never ask him to do any of this and money makes me sick anyways…..

He owns two homes, his mothers and the one he is currently in. He is going to sell the house he is in now to buy a larger one for our families. Though due to my past divorce I was forced to take CH 13 to survive creditors and the divorce. My name will not be on the new home. How will that affect me as his spouse?

As far as his will, his daughter is not in the will. She has a college fund and a car fund when she turns 16, plus almost a million in life insurance, she will be fine, along with his Social Security. He has a lot of stock, though I don’t know what it does or where it is at. The other home that he owns is paid for. All this is currently going to his mother.

So he prenup thing came from his Ex I think she thinks I am going to take money away from them? I don’t know, I never really thought about it because the money is based on his DEATH and that is disturbing to think about!!

I don’t know my rights as a spouse, I don’t know if he will change his will. I don’t know if he will change his life insurance. I don’t care, as long as the house would be covered.

Seriously, the ex has no business talking about a prenup.......this is between your man and yourself, she needs to butt-out! And yes, when you guys get married there may be adjustments made to include yourself in financial matters.....this is normal, you will be his wife for gosh sakes! He can leave you every penny if he wants to......the thing is, it's his decision and the ex needs to stay out of it.

Someone who has worked a long time, and worked hard for their money, who has kids, or has lots of assets, needs to protect these things, especially if he or she marries someone who has nothing, and therefore has nothing to lose. People who decide they don't want to be married anymore, especially people who go into it for the wrong reasons in the first place (I'm not saying that's anyone here, I'm just saying it DOES happen), tend to have an attitude of "entitlement" to their partner's hard-earned money. Anyone who has lived the good life for awhile doesn't want to give it up easily.

You wrote an especially great post here Polly, much better than I could write and I agree with you 100%!

Until I met Stu (my first younger & less affluent partner), I don't think I really comprehended this way of thinking. But I remember when Stu started asking about sharing finances & bank accounts......I freaked!! Stu has nothing, not even full-time work or a career direction as yet. And he can't bear my children. It is very difficult to ajust mentally to the idea of supporting a guy, who really doesn't understand what slogging it out for many years to get somewhere is all about. Its even worse being in position where someone can take my things if they choose to walk away from the relationship!. I imagine that many a guy these days would feel exactly as I do about the younger women they date. You tend to be wary when you've worked a decade or more for what you have. Those are years you don't get back.

I don't know if I ever really dealt with this risk properly; perhaps it still worries me and I've just put my head in the sand with my fingers very tightly crossed!. At the time I weighed up the financial risks and the truth is that my assetts don't ad up to enough to get worked up about. If I'd owned a home, I would most certainly have thought twice about a pre-nupt.

Insearch, I think what is more important than a prenupt in your situation is working out what your more affluent partner expects of you. Its quite a power imbalance the two of you are dealing with, and this can lead to resentment and hidden expectations on his part if you are not living up to your side of the `bargain', whatever that is. Perhaps the `bargain' is that you give him children and be a loving wife, and that will be enough, but try to be sure.

Both of my sisters have never worked & are in marriages with more affluent men. Its getting much harder to pay off a mortgage & raise a family on one income in Australia. So every 3-4 years, my brothers-in-law start pestering my sisters to enter the workforce to help pay the bills. And evey 3-4 years, my sisters pop out another baby `unexpectedly' to avoid dealing with taking on some menial job. I am giggling thinking about the`game' my sisters play, but I wonder how long it can last, and what kind of resentments are present in those marriages. Those are the kind of tensions couples would be best to avoid if you can.

Good point! I have many days where I think, why the heck is he with me??? He has established his practice and we are both done with children. He has been “fixed” and so have I, so there will be no babies to pop out..haha

We haven’t talked about work. I know that he wants me to go back to school to get my MBA, though I am not sure that I want that at this time.

I really don’t know why a man his age would want to raise 2 young boys and have a wife *again*. I can’t contribute anything financially into the relationship. I come with myself and the boys

Bella, good points.. I think that is a convo that we need to have!

Hi insearch......Apart from the compatibility & love you share, hes probably absolutely wrapped to be with someone with your beauty & youth, quite frankly. I know we women find this frustrating & superficial, but older men DO place value on these qualities, so just be proud that you have them! Also, so long as he is happy with his own life & things are not strained financially, I doubt that he would resent you for not bringing in money. He will see you as a valuable addition to his life.

I imagine that he would appreicate very much the conversation regarding expectations. These sorts of dialogs between couples build trust & understanding.

He wants me to get my Masters to be "safe" in the future. He said as long as he was alive that I don't have to worry. He takes education seriously and feels that these days a college degree isn't enough.

Again, I hate money.......... Bittersweet I would say.....

Bella I have to admit that it is a generalization..... It has nothing to do with OM... There are Plenty of women who are just as successfull.... if that's the case then all OW are just as "superficial"

I am married to a wonderful om and I'm sure he wouldn't find that statement fair.

Wow. I didn't mean to offend anyone. I speak only from experience. Maybe a different experience to some people, but real life experience nonetheless.

Let me say, that I don't look down on any person who appreciates the youth and/ or beauty of their partner (i only object it if its ALL they appreciate). There is a superficial & negative way at looking at this attraction. But there is also a positive way to look at it too. Many of us become damaged as life progresses. We get treated poorly. Loved ones let us down, very badly. We get so broken and afraid of closeness that we hardly know how to find innocent joy again.

Theres something about youth, and today IMHO, youth are better than ever. Wiser or something. I work with young men and young women and they have a special `something' that I value so highly. Its a positivity, idealism, and trustworthiness, I think. These people heal me each day with their sincerity and youthful idealism.

So when I say that insearch's partner may * appreciate * these qualites in her, I mean it from the heart. These qualities can refresh a wounded psyche, and a damaged outlook. They cleanse you. I think they are valuable traits, in the spirtual sense for some people, and more prevalent in our youth.

I don't mean to offend anyone!! I agree that we shouldn't perpetuate negative stereotypes, but we need not be untruthful about people's real motives. We don't have be negative about these sorts of relationships either. So what if some of us Choose younger mate because they are younger people? I sthis wrong or something?

I agree that there are a certain few who are in this for Not so good reasons... but I think it goes for both sides..... I think sometimes its how it looks.... Bella You know I love ya....I only took offense to the statement where you kinda pointed out because she was younger....we are also on the net andt yping so sometimes its hard to type what we mean all the time :)

I found Bella D's posts really candid and honest. Let's not pretend trophy wives don't exist! Puleeeze! I houseclean for 'em. They're great customers, I like them to talk to, they're interesting, but it's real clear that their marriage is based on superficial things, and for a great number of men, that's okay. They really don't care if the woman loves them deeply or bears children. Men are visually stimulated creatures. Anyone with a psychology background can affirm that. A woman who is visually pleasing is more likely to be proposed to, especially by a man with something to offer her...and since men take providing for a woman as their major contribution and expression of love, a man with more money is more likely to go after the good looking ones, even if he isn't a looker. A man doesn't particularly care if his betrothed is attracted to him, as long as she gives him sex on a regular basis and can engage in interesting conversation and on occassion, a fun activity that he enjoys.

It's a whole different ball of wax with older women and younger men. Most of us obviously can't compete against younger women in a bikini contest. Some of us couldn't keep up as much with physical activities, like rock climbing or skiing. The things we seem to have to offer are life experience, patience, appreciation for who he is and who he is trying to become, and, hopefully, stable environments from which to launch a future and goals. There are younger women who have this too, but for some reason, a lot don't, I guess it's the lack of time in the work force and life experience. The thing that I see too is, a lot of OW don't have a penny to their names! They're struggling to support themselves and children, and insist that the younger man contribute out of necessity. Because he is a man, he feels the need to provide anyway. So it's apples and oranges.

I'm surprised to hear about all these women talking about how to secure a part of an estate or other financial assets once their husband is gone. I mean, I know that it's important to have a place to live, but if you didn't help buy the house, and your spouse dies or divorces you within a certain amount of time, why couldn't you go back to an apartment? I'm glad Robin doesn't seek out lawyers and question me about my will. It would make me uncomfortable. I would feel that he was here for other reasons than pure love, and since I'm not a man and more emotionally stimulated than visually, I would feel really betrayed if that were the case.

He wants to provide for me. He doesn't want me to have to work. He wants to pay everything. When that happens, guess what? I'll be more than happy to add him to the deed. He'll have earned it. But with the younger women, the man still wants to provide. That's how it is. Yet, I think when there is a lot of money involved, he is only willing to part with so much, having been screwed over before.

Look at the case of Anna Nicole Smith, who married that 80-something billionaire, and claimed it was purely love. Apparently, when he died, he had some kind of clause in his will that left her with pretty much nothing, and she fought his family over it! How awful! It was a no-brainer that an 80-something wasn't going to turn her on, but to put his family through that was evil.

Divorce is similar, in that kids are often involved, and the alimony of ex-wives. I'm not to judge whether the ex-wife did or didn't deserve it, I'm just saying that in that case, she would want to protect what money is coming to her. The kids are most important of all. A grown woman entering into a marriage with a man who has been married and has kids from a previous marriage, should go into it not expecting to get much out of it materially. She can expect that he will try really hard to cater to her and not make the same mistakes he made before, and be loving and attentive, and perhaps even hit a sexual peak in his late forties, early fifties, but she shouldn't expect much in the way of money should the marriage fail. Only what she brought in, and what they made together during the marriage. That means, if he bought the house before the marriage, it's his, let it go. Stocks, bonds, anything he invested in before the marriage, it's his, he earned it. The kids will need it.

A second marriage is like a second chance. If you go into it for the right reasons, you'll clear all hurdles as you go and be best friends. That's the greatest treasure there is. :)

I wouldn't find signing a pre-nuptial agreement a problem at all - as long as I thought the arrangement as described in the contract is fair to all parties.

The reality is that when people are hurting, they don't always play fair. It may seem intangible when we're totally in love, but any of us is capable of metamorphizing into a temporary monster if we feel damaged enough - and hey, love is nothing but the ability to damage each other deeply.

If it never gets used, then fabulous. Put it with all of the other papers in a very deep storage file and forget about it.

But it's there if needed, and if any marriage I was involved in had significant assets at stake, then it might well be needed if and when a sad time comes.

There is not doubt that after my husband died, I got a puny share of his puny familiy house after it sold because, and only because, he put in writing that I was to have his share whenever the money materialized. There is not much doubt that without that instruction (and my husband's siblings did "like me" and I wouldn't describe them as venal people at all) , they might well have found a way not to tell me 3,000 miles away that the house had been sold and split the proceeds 4 ways instead of 5.

People are just strange about money sometimes. Especially money mixed with sadness and grief and family.

I could rack my brain asking myself why this man loves me. True, men are more visual creatures. He has told me that he appreciates the fact that I take care of myself and strive to maintain health and youth. That is what attracted him to me, I believe. As a woman, it was different for me, I was attracted to his wisdom, thoughtfulness, and yep, ego.

We are different… there are gender differences. I do find him attractive; when I look at him I still melt and feel 16. Though I don’t want to be the “Trophy wife” and I hate that label. We share so much and laugh constantly. I think that with my OM he values my honestly on life, the fact I respect his boundaries, and that I am a very laid back person.

Sure he has money, though it isn’t mine. I didn’t work for it, I didn’t help him earn it and honestly the whole thing makes me kinda ill. I don’t even talk to him about it. I struggle daily and I have a great job. I filed BK due to my prior marriage. He could have paid my debt off with a swipe of the ATM card….I didn’t want him too, I didn’t ask…not his deal.

After it was all said and done, I think he appreciated that about me.

Bella..I respect your honesty. I know that if I was older he probably won’t have even noticed me, he has stated this. At the time, my youth is what he was after, our relationship grew..who would have thought, but it did.

I appreciate everyone’s posts on this matter. In fact if a pre nupt is brought up again, I will sign. It should be fair and just, and I will sign. As far as the wills and stuff, I hate thinking about it. He would be the only person I have loved like this in my life and I HATE the age gap when it comes to this. I know that most likely I will be alone in my old age, without him… that scares me and makes me sad.

I could care less about his money, though as the days roll on I realized that he has a lot, more than I have ever known about… stashed away. Again, not mine. I just want him in my life for a loooong time.

Though honestly I love the fact he finds me attractive, I love the fact that when I hit the gym in the morning that I do it for him. My career depends on my youth, the money I make depends on how I look…that is a burden. If I do it for anyone or anything, it is him. I like looking good for him. Trophy wife? Nah.. I think I offer more up. Attracted to my youth, I think so….

Bella hit it on the head… I do things that woman his age have already done and don’t want to do again, they have been there and done that, which gives them knowledge and wisdom that I am now learning. Though he cherishes that about me.. That is fine. He is only 46 and I think that life should be lived to the fullest.

We live that life, I enjoy that life….with him. Thanks again for all your comments.

Well, Cherubino, in my personal experience, I HAVE seen that the older men get, the more superficial they are. I think it's due to them having been screwed over and building a wall that won't let them try very hard to be with someone. In my experience, and this pertains to how I was when I was younger as well, I think younger women are more willing to put up with an older man's crap that a woman his own age who has also been through the wringer and isn't very forgiving. Here's what's so weird. The whole time I was dating, after leaving my ex for the final time, I would meet men my age, and they would have this whole "list", this whole "menu" of what a woman needed to be to date them. I mean, I was a size 9, which I don't think is too terribly big, and they would say my *** was too big! Younger men, on the contrary, loved my ***, as well as everything else about me. They were more forgiving of my flaws and baggage, and more willing to work on those things as a team.

I'd tell an older man I had kids, and he'd run the other way. I'd tell a younger man, and his eyes would light up and he'd say, "Wow! That's great! I love kids. I have nieces and nephews, they're a blast!" So yeah, in my experience, younger men have been less superficial than older ones who are jaded, I think, and perhaps have a right to be, depending on what their past relationships were like.

I think it's really commendable that you will be providing the income when your husband retires, and contributing financially. I also understand that having children with him will cause a vested interest in the property, of course. You wouldn't want to move them around no matter what. They should be able to grow up in a stable place. That is a factor that isn't often involved in an ow/ym relationship, as most ow won't have children by their ym.

In your case, things appear really equal and well-balanced. And I'm not saying that anyone else's relationship isn't. I'm saying that personally, I've seen older men taken advantage of financially by younger women and I don't think it's fair to them. However, if the attraction was mostly a physical one and that's the premise for the relationship, then should things go sour, there's not going to be a whole lot of empathy on either side when it comes time to divorce. I have yet to see a younger woman (who didn't have kids by the man and came in with nothing) say to the soon to be ex-husband, "I don't want anything from you. I just want what I came here with. Let's not go to court, let's just get a dissillusion (sp?)." Have you personally ever seen that happen?

I didn't mean to be offensive either, to anyone. I'm stating what I've personally witnessed in my life. It wasn't pretty.

Anyhoo, I think my computer is about to crash, LOL, so I may not get back on here very soon, but I hope EVERYONE has a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!! Happy Hannukah too!:)

"Some of you say it's just a piece of paper - you mean like how a marriage certificate is just a piece of paper too?"

Yep, that's pretty much what I mean. Either the feelings are there which underlie the document (making the document somewhat unnecessary) or they aren't, in which case all the paper in the world won't change anything.

Meaning that in the case of a prenuptial agreement, having one doesn't change a great relationship of long duration. Having one doesn't change the ability of both people to go through a seperation civilly and generously if they choose. And as we've all seen, a prenuptial agreement won't keep ugliness from breaking out if that's what people want to do, although it may make it less effective ugliness.

Just like with a marriage certificate. You can have an amazing relationship for a very long time and no certificate, and you can have a marriage certificate and yet lose your relationship quite quickly.

Thanks Polly & Desert Spring; as usual, you both articulated what I was trying to say, only much more eloquently. And Merry Christmas to both of you..its been quite a year, has it not?!

Insearch, I think its worth mentioning that theres probably little need to get worked up about preserving the superfical qualities which *initially* attracted your partner to you. I hate the thought of hitting the gym each day thinking that your abs are what make your partner stay! Thats an awful pressure to live with.

What I meant was that your partner probably appreciates & admires your beauty & youth, but in no way do I mean exclusively!

I think what Polly touched on in her posts.....the point about people having mile- long`lists' of requirements which have to met before they will let a person close.......is very true.

Most of these `requirements' are less meaningful in the long run, & more relevent in the beginning stages of courtship. The list is just there to enable a person to feel safe about taking yet another gamble with their fragile heart. After a time, if the relationship is satisfying, the superficial qualities on these kinds of lists,such as beauty & wealth, pale in importance compared with the love you share.

Originally posted by Polly
Well, Cherubino, in my personal experience, I HAVE seen that the older men get, the more superficial they are. I think it's due to them having been screwed over and building a wall that won't let them try very hard to be with someone.

I do have to disagree.... In my experience it's theYounger men who are more concerned with the appearance of a woman...... I remember in high school... all the heavy girls didn't have boyfriends etc..... so I think we can go back and forth saying older / younger... fact of the matter is they are men.... some are more superficial than others and same for women..... I think the issue is we all have different preferences...I know I'm married now..but I used to date all different ages... Younger, same age, and older and I went with older because I was personally sick of the games.....

Hi Mer,
I know this is a bit of touchy topic in some respects. I think Polly & myself are simply commenting on our own lives, and what we have seen. Its seems that she & I have made very similar observations. Its very hard to believe that what we feel is a `generalisation' when it is based on many years of social observation.

It would be easy to say` well women can be superficial in the same way as guys.....only after a younger man's youth and beauty'. But in my entire 15 years of socialising, and possibly meeting thousands of people, I am the ONLY woman I know who is engaged to man more than 6 years younger than me. The only one!!!! So it doesn't really `fit' with me that women are superfical with regards to demanding beauty in their mates like so many men are. And yet so many men I know 40-50 years of age are choosing much younger female mates, who really don't seem very compatible with them. This is an observation, not a generalisation.

I agree that younger men (especially at high school!) can be very superficial. Thats how I remember it too (I hated those years!). So maybe what we could say is that most men kind of suck, and that when we find good ones, they come in all forms and age-groups:)) I'm just kidding. Well only a little bit. Male culture does have a lot to answer for IMHO.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Originally posted by MerAlove23
I do have to disagree.... In my experience it's theYounger men who are more concerned with the appearance of a woman...... I remember in high school... all the heavy girls didn't have boyfriends etc..... so I think we can go back and forth saying older / younger... fact of the matter is they are men.... some are more superficial than others and same for women..... I think the issue is we all have different preferences...I know I'm married now..but I used to date all different ages... Younger, same age, and older and I went with older because I was personally sick of the games.....

Great post......let's not keep comparing something that doesn't really need to be compared. Whether the woman is younger or older is besides the fact. Everyone has their own opinions on the prenup issue. I for one, don't care for the whole prenup idea; many others do. & thats o.k.
Surprising as it may be...but to me the marriage certificate is just a piece of paper. It's whats in your heart that counts.....for example, 'C' was married for about 16 years +/- all the seperations and crap.....the relationship was absolutely a disaster from the start. So, ya there was a marriage certificate & there were years under the belt....but their hearts were empty and unhappy.

thank you my dear :D

Hi!

Thanks for starting a thread on this topic. It seems as if a prenup is something that changes the rules and makes exception to the regular 50/50 during marriage, what was mine before marriage is mine after divorce.

Here's something that I found on http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/family/wed/1436.asp

"With a nuptial agreement, a person can disinherit a spouse, settle property rights or exempt a major asset like the family business from the marital estate. Without such a signed agreement, most states give a surviving spouse a minimum of one-third of the total assets.

Where assets were accumulated during a first marriage, the children of that marriage may lose one-third of their inheritances, even if the new marriage lasted for only a few weeks. In some states, the heirs to an estate can continue a divorce proceeding that began before the deceased died as a tool to prevent the surviving spouse from receiving any of the inheritance. A nuptial agreement prevents such bloody battle..."

In my case I would be coming from the opposite side. I am 39 and own a home, stocks, retirement plans and have life insurance for my children. I am divorced. If I were to have children with a new man, personally I would want my assets divided equally among my children.

Say I wanted to leave something to a niece or nephew? Perhaps a prenup would take care of this.

Perhaps I wanted to leave the proceeds from a business to a business partner as opposed to a relative, perhaps a prenup would take care of this.

Perhaps I would actaully want to leave some extra to the ex-husband? etc.

If I were to marry a younger man without many assets, or even an older man without many assets, I do not think there would be really no way for them to profit from marrying me for money's sake, more than the usual rules.

Personally, I do not think there is much to be worried about regarding pre-nups.

???