Oh, wise women...

Please, those of you in LT AG relationships, tell me how not to panic that my love is going to leave me when we get into an argument?

I'm still dealing with some whacked-out hormone issues, made worse by the bc pills that my last doctor put me on, but I don't think that I can blame all of my panic on my hormones. Can I? I'm seeing a new doctor on Tuesday, though.

Well I guess it's depending on the fight If you cheat on him I can't give you advice.. but a normal fight.. What I can say is Trust him... We all get mad we all get in fights... My husband and I fight alllllll the time... expecially now.... we just bought a house.. my hubbys car just crapped out....Grandfather sick..... Hurt my leg LOL so we are bound to fight........but I've left.. usually to calm down... but I always come back... I would say just trust in him and your love.....

MerLove ~

That sounds so simple, but it's SUCH a good piece of advice. This is a very good thing to run through my head when he's trying to reassure me that his feelings don't change just because we get into an argument.

Maybe it should be my temporary mantra: Trust, trust, trust.

You can borrow my two prayers:

1) Help me, help me, help me.

and

2) Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That should work for ya!

:-)

It was sort of one of those cumulative things. Even though we talk about everything, money and housework are two constant sources of stress - for me. (I know, I'm supposed to be reducing my stressability - I'm working on it.)

I've been very stressed out about money (we both spent too much at Christmas, plus, bigger picture, I'm not used to being this broke all the time) and housework (he tries to clean house but is terrible about it, and he doesn't seem to see dirt or clutter [and, really, I'm so far from being a neat freak] but we live in an apt with 2 cats and a bunny - it gets messy fast, and I get tired of spending so much of my time off cleaning house. Too, we've been working on moving which may require me to change companies (both stressful events).

Yes, I told him, and he's told me...

and told me...

and told me...


So, then he leaves for work while I'm still mired in my own depths - and digging in deeper because I figure he must be so sick of me and that he's happy he had to leave the house. So, of course, I just get mad at him (for me being such a b*tch - how stupid).

You know, I think that I kick myself waay too long when we get into a fight. And then I figure that he must be kicking me, too, in his mind. So, I not only try to open the door for him to exit, I hold it open, and maybe even try to push him out a little.

And the truth is that we both forgive and forget easily. I don't know if I'm still programmed from my last relationship where every argument was a reason for my ex to claim "okay, we're starting over again - we have looong way to go", or what.

Yes, he tells me he loves me, he's happy here with me, he's not going anywhere, he's not mad, etc.

I know that our money situation isn't going to change overnight - with him just starting out and all. It's hard, too, because he does restaurant work and sometimes supervises and sometimes serves so there isn't much stability to his income at the moment, not until he gets to the point of managing/supervising full-time.

He's trying to get better at the housework and laundry thing, and I hardly ever make age-related comments like this here, but he has the living habits of lots of 'typical' 22-year old guys. It probably doesn't help that his mother is a clean freak and her kids had to clean the house spotless constantly - when he moved out he probably totally rebelled. I think that I need to juggle some expense in the coming months and figure out how to hire a housecleaner to come in something like twice a week. But how can a person open a pack of cigarettes in the kitchen (or food or batteries or...) and not just lean over and put the trash in the trash can and not on the counter (or dining table or coffee table or whereever the nearest flat surface may be)???

Of course, we need to figure out how to deal with these things, but I need to learn to deal with any 'big' arguments that come down the line without always thinking that he's going to leave because one or both of us got angry.

Girls, I know I've gone through this panic thread here before, but I'm still working on it. Thanks for your patience.

I hope he doesn't run out of his.

Originally posted by katmeup7
You can borrow my two prayers:

1) Help me, help me, help me.

and

2) Thank you, thank you, thank you.



Are these said to the Universe/God, or to my boyfriend? *laugh*

Whatever works.....use as needed!

I hate that feeling of totally loving someone, but the daily grind getting in the way of things going smoothly. Hiring a housekeeper twice a week would be a huge expense. And that's not going to cure him of leaving his trash on the table anyway.

I'm sorry money is a problem for you right now. $ always has a way of working itself out though. Patience and a budget!

You are either going to have to agree to more equitable household maintanence, or live with dirtier conditions and get over it. That's one of the things I don't miss at all about being in a relationship. If I want my house spic and span it is, and if it's a mess, no one cares. But the cleanliness of living quarters is a problem between two people most of the time, because no two people have the same perception of what's clean and what's dirty. But bottom line is, in the end, it's not what's important.

Your two souls traveling together on this earth plane is...

Whoops! I meant twice a month! *laugh*

I know, you're right about us being together being exponentially more important to the housework. And I AM becoming more able to deal with his messiness. Like I said, I'm not even close to a neat freak - it's taken me a long time to discipline my own self regarding housework. But when every flat surface in the house has an empty pack of cigarettes or a piece of trash on it, I just can't stand it anymore. I wish he would just learn the concept of maintenance so that when cleaning day comes along, it's not such a huge task. Also, maintenance makes deep cleaning day less frequent.

And I know we'll work out the money thing. He knows how stressed out I've been over money these last few weeks so he's been working nights all week because it pays better. Then, of course, I miss him at night. :(

You know, an underlying thing here is that I feel as if I'm responsible for just about everything. The only thing he's responsible for is going to work. I have to initiate everything - housework, bill paying, grocery shopping, taking care of pets, taking care of the car, everything. It's tough to feel like a 'girl' instead of....gasp...a...mom...sometimes. I feel as if I'm taking care of me, him and everything. I want him to take some of this off of my shoulders and be a partner. He's trying, he's learning. I guess there are some AG related 'challenges' that we're dealing with. I'm tired, you know?

But Ross is such a wonderful guy - sweet and kind, smart and funny, hard-working...so I know the money thing will balance out eventually. He's very loving. It sounds funny, but I watch him with the kitties and the bunny, and it reinforces what I knew a long time ago...he's going to be a great dad.

And he loves me. And love him.

So, as MerLove said, I need to Trust him when he says just because we argued, his feelings didn't change.

Originally posted by Science Goddess
...You know, an underlying thing here is that I feel as if I'm responsible for just about everything. The only thing he's responsible for is going to work. I have to initiate everything - housework, bill paying, grocery shopping, taking care of pets, taking care of the car, everything. It's tough to feel like a 'girl' instead of....gasp...a...mom...sometimes. I feel as if I'm taking care of me, him and everything. I want him to take some of this off of my shoulders and be a partner. ..

I am not currently living with my b/f (we are in an LDR) but I can actually quite relate to this feeling from my previous "live-in" relationship. And it wasn't an agegap issue, but living with an essentially clinical depressed person who didn't believe in treatment ;).

It's very easy to fall into "excusing" and enabling behavíour - I sure did and the resentment over 2-3 years probably was what screwed up our relationship, because at the end, I felt I couldn't breathe anymore and really resented to have in effect become a "mom" (or rather, caregive). The thing is, in a way, it's been my own fault for actually ALLOWING this to happen, i.e. to accept responsibilities that weren't mine but my partners - and in effect letting him "off the hook" of pulling his weight in the household and the relationship.

My main excuse is that I didn't know any better and I was feeling "hey, he's depressed, it would be shitty of me to make it even harder for him" ... what I did, with hindsight, was to make it easier for him to not pull his weight, though ...

My excuse was "he's depressed, but he's trying (when I was getting exasperated at times)", your's seems to be "he's young and trying"...

Guess what I am saying is it is VERY easy to fall in a trap to enable our S/O to not shoulder their full weight ... but in my case I found the resentment led to mutual emotional withdrawal and final the demise of our relationship ... so I guess the point I am trying to make is "beware the beginnings", really ...

Maybe it's time to actually discuss this with your b/f, not in particular the cleaning issue, but the potential risks for the relationship if he can't shape up and you cannot compromise any more ... maybe that might help?

Carazy ~

Sorry in advance for the long post. I'm sort of getting this out of my system. Don't feel compelled to respond to all of my yammering.

Thanks for such a thoughful post. I know where you're coming from. My best friend married a guy like your ex. She's one of the most wonderful people you'll ever meet, she bends over backwards for everyone. Well, her depressed, lazy, blablablah husband has sucked the life out of her. She's struggling to make things work, and after 4 really hard, really crazy years of, well, craziness, it MIGHT be getting better - he's on meds but still just as selfish as a 5 year old. But she so completely enabled his behavior in the beginning - she is, sadly but fortunately, learning to deal with her own co-dependent behavior.

Ross isn't a particularly depressed person - I fit that description more than he does.

I think what it is for us is that Ross moved into my apartment with two duffle bags of clothes, hardly any money, no car, etc.

Okay, that sounds bad. Ross graduated from college last January, he didn't really have any furniture from college. He sold his car last May because he was moving from Iowa to downtown Seattle (walking distance to his new job), spending the summer working in a national park before heading to Seattle. He used the money (not much) to fund his move to Seattle (which never happened since he decided to stay here) and to have fun in Wyoming over the summer. Well, he had planned on spending the summer in Wyoming, working in a place where there wasn't much to buy so he planned on saving enough money for a down payment on a new car when he got to Seattle. Basically, I practically kidnapped him from the middle of nowhere. With that said, I know that Ross isn't here because it's easy on his pocketbook - it's not. I don't make a ton of money and he's not lazy when it comes to work.

Anyway...since the apt has been mine for 3 years, of course, all the bills were already in my name, the car is mine, he's never had to worry about housework before (came from a college roommate situation where EVERYONE was a slob), and has only switched from a diet of pizza, ice cream, cookies, etc. to semi-normal (eh-hem 'adult') food since he's been here - in other words, he's learning how to grocery shop.

He's doing so much better about so many things since he's been here. He really does try very hard. But you're right, he needs to pick up some of the slack more often, and maybe some of it more permanently. And, you know, we were switching off weeks for grocery shopping until around Thanksgiving then money got tight for us both, and when money gets tight for him, its worse than it is for me so I've been doing most of the grocery shopping. I'm sure now that the holidays are over, he's working hard to catch up, we can go back to tag-shopping. Now if he will only learn to do the shopping that needs to get done between big shopping trips.

He pays rent to me so I feel like I'm responsible especially since sometimes he doesn't have all of his $$ when rent is due. I'd rather that he write a check direct to the landlord and eliminate me as the middleperson. (We're trying to figure this out. Ross got himself into Chexsystems a few years ago - can't be mad, so did I at that age - so he can't open a checking account at most banks. I'm trying to figure out if I can open another one, add him as a co-signer and basically let him 'have' that account until his name clears Chexsystems.)

Kelly/Mrs. HH said that she can't expect her hubby to know all of the things that it took her these many more years to learn. And I need to keep that in mind. Ross doesn't KNOW certain...'things'. He was embarrassed to tell me about being on Chexsystems. and when a bank told him to get lost, he figured they all would. (Most will but not all.)

He takes care himself and is reponsible for himself but I need him to step into being responsible for things that are OUR responsibility; to take the initiative for things. I even hate to say it but to do some of that typical guy stuff like go buy the bin for our new Xmas decorations and stash them and put them in the storage shed.

Maybe if I start a honey-do list with the bigger stuff (e.g., Xmas lights in storage, I won't mind taking care of the little stuff (e.g., trash on the counter).

I know you're right: "beware the beginnings". This may be why I get so stressed out - because I DON'T want to start off with bad habits that will never change. But you know, I guess the argument we got into the other day was worse than I thought, and he was so upset today, he almost left. Not because he wanted to but because he felt that he wasn't making me happy.

It really, really hurt him to think that with all his hard work that I wasn't happy. God, I guess I can be such a bu**.

Hello Science Goddess,

I can completely relate to everything you're saying. But first, yes we have fights too but you feel less panicy with time about the whole thing. I think its normal and nothing to worry yourself sick over:).

Stu's good with the whole division of labour thing, but I have to admit when he gets up to make dinner or do the dishes sometimes, I feel a weird kind of pang...like its something I should be doing!. He's always asking me for chores to perform (which I appreciate to bits!), but I still have a bit of trouble asking him to `feminine' things (although he does these things all the time).

And to be truthful, I sometimes still feel uncomfortable with this `provider' role. I like it for practical reasons, but every now and again I feel kind of off balance and weird about it.

Maybe this whole `gender role' thing is deeply ingrained for a lot of us, and it just takes time to adjust? You sound a bit like me.....you are natural nurturer, but you also do all the traditionally male stuff in your relationship too! No wonder you blow off steam every now and again...its too much work!

I agree with what everyone else said about making sure you `train' your partner into doing his fair share of the work. Who knows, maybe hes ajusting to doing `feminine' stuff too? I mean he probably grew up seeing his mother do EVERYTHING,( like most guys do). Maybe he just needs some guidance from you....like letting him know what YOU expect and want?.

I hope you are feling better today, anyway. I remember how my first few fights with STu felt like and it was a bit nerve racking. You'll be ok, I promise:)

SG -

WHEW.. glad I am not alone in my thoughts.... Gurl, ya need to journal, cause reading all your posts you seemed to clam down, think rationally and work it out a bit.

Though I do the same thing!! I do hate that about me, though it is me and we work through it and you have to trust your relationship.

I was all freaked when we had an argument and his statment to me was.... "Um, well do you want to leave me when you are mad at me"? I looked at him like he was crazy....as I said hell no! He walked away saying that should of answered my question....

It finally did....

Kel!

I am LMFAO! I am definitely not THAT bad! But you know...I've thought about it! Maybe it would help Ross to understand clean from my perspective. (Cleaning the kitchen does not mean leaving pots on the counter that wouldn't fit in the dishwasher. See those things attached to your wrists?)

But we did that pattern on the sheets thing the other day. We're changing the sheets, and I said no, no, turn it this way. He said how can you tell which is the top. I said, see, on this set the flowers are all growing in one direction.


But, y'all, the thing I do when I panic is...and it's hard to say this...is that I start to wonder if he's thinking about leaving. So, I go into self-protection mode and I start asking him if he thinks we should be living separately so he can be sure this is what he wants to do. Well, without giving all the details, I said it the other day and he started to wonder if I was serious and was worried that he didn't have anywhere else to go. So, then of course he got very upset at the idea that he wasn't making me happy, and that how dare I just think of moving him out over an argument, and then he DID start thinking that he should move out.

We went from him looking at engagement rings to him almost moving out. I'm such a jerk sometimes. I feel as if I've ruined everything. We cleared the air yesterday morning but it's kind of like a bruise, you know. It doesn't go away in a split second. Which feels awful because other spats are forgetten a second later.

Originally posted by insearch

I was all freaked when we had an argument and his statment to me was.... "Um, well do you want to leave me when you are mad at me"? I looked at him like he was crazy....as I said hell no! He walked away saying that should of answered my question....

It finally did....

Insearch, I'm sorry, can you clarify this for me?

Sorry!

Bella, thanks for the post. I know where you're coming from. I do have SOME of that gender role programming but it's also 2005, and I'm not a stay at home gf/wife/mother. If I WAS, and he was bringing home the bacon, I'd be okay with most of the housework and stuff. It's more of a balance thing.

The thing is that he has told me that his mother used to make him and his brother do lots of housework and it had to be perfect [like Kelly's house :) ]. Now, it is occuring to me that what seemed like 'perfect' to him at 15 may have been normal! (I don't know; I haven't met the mom yet.) But I can tell you that he seems to have forgotten everything she ever taught him. And it sounds like his last two girlfriends were slobs, too.

There's two levels of housework, as I see it. There's the day-to-day picking up after yourself. Trash in the trash can, dirty dishes in the dishwasher, empty cig packs off the porch. Then there's the days for taking everything off of the kitchen counter and cleaning with a scrubbie, or doing the same thing in the bathroom. I admit, I just can't understand some of his habits. I wrote a lot of stuff down last night while he was at work so that I had notes to talk from the next time we had a chance. We just cleared the air yesterday afternoon (I think I wrote morning in my earlier post) so I didn't want to get all heavy and serious today.

I'll probaby sit down and initiate a conversation tomorrow night about this stuff.

First and foremost is something that I've already told him that I won't do, no matter how whacked out my hormones are. I will never suggest that he might be happier in his own place. I would be miserable living separately until we get married, and he said he would be, too.

Yay!!! Theres nothing like clearing the air, huh?

I don't completely understand why some people are cleaner and tidier than others, but I wanted to tell you that my Mother was an extremely perfectionist and hypercritical house cleaner and all six of her children are messy (including me).! I grew up doing a lot of chores too, so I don't understand this myself. In fact, my two sisters (both stay at home mums) STILL have problems with their spouses because they can't keep their places tidy!. Its an ongoing source of tension for one of my younger sisters in particular, who is recently remarried.

I wish I could explain why...maybe you were right, maybe its rebellion.? Sometimes I also think that when you watch someone go nuts and cause so much household tension becasue everything has to be just perfect every minute of the day...well it kind imprints some mesaages on your brain....like how nuts it seems to spend your life doing `maintenance' and making everyone else feel uncomfortable in what is supposed to be your home. Maybe? I don't know.

I'm 35 years old now and I'm still not as tidy as my mother...I am `better' (my home at the moment is really beautiful so I keep it tidy for aesthetic reasons). This is a really interesting subject for me!

Hi SG,

Please hang in there and RELAX!!!!! By always questioning his commitment to you, you are basically telling him you don't trust him. If he doesn't feel your trust he will start to doubt placing his trust in you...this will not lead you to the place where you want to go.

You are feeling insecure and like a little girl you are constantly testing him and trying to gain reassurance by being "daring" him to leave you. He doesn't so you feel better until you need your next "fix" and the whole thing starts right back up. Where is the emotional faith in that? No relationship can take that kind of instability for long. I don't mean to scare you. It is not too late!!Take care of your needs and let him pick up the slack. A dirty house is a pain but losing your boyfriend is an agony.

Work out the organisational stuff in a rational non-emotional way and save the feelings for the good times. Some people liking to use a cleaning plan others designate chores so there is no confusion to who has to do what. You two can work that out!Once that is cleared up so is a source of contention...

Lots of deep breaths and focus on what you love about him. It might help put things in perspective...

Keep your head up!!

Chat cat ~

Thanks for the straight-up post.

You're right, you're right, you're right.

It IS time to step back, and give him the room to voluntarily pick up the slack - without me reminding him almost every day.


Like I said earlier, my hormones are totally out of whack, and the hormones they've given me to address the physical symptoms are making me whacked - so this isn't helping anything. I'm not completely blaming my hormones or the ones that I'm taking but I've been feeling for the last two weeks the same way that I was feeling back at the end of Sept/beginning of Oct when I was acting like an A**.

So, I need to remind myself a couple times a day that my hormones are clouding my emotional state and to be conscious of taking a deep breath before saying ANYTHING until I get my body figured out.

Doctor's appt. tomorrow, thank God.

Good luck at the doctor's. You will be fine!!

Thanks for everyone's patience and input. Things are fine at home.

I have to remember that he is a man who is not made of stone - like my ex, and that the things I say do get to him. His normally calm demeanor does not mean that he doesn't hear me or that he isn't thinking about things. It just means that he doesn't get as worked up. It also means that his estrogen and progesterone aren't whacked, like mine. *joke*

It's so tough having a REAL argument and getting past it sometimes. Not with Ross but with anyone, I guess.

He's so sweet (as usual). He's been cleaning house for the last two days while I've been in the office. He also said that he's going to do something about the fact that he seems to be working almost all nights right now.

I'm off to the doctor...AGAIN...to see what we can do about my body holding a long-term mutiny.

Thanks for calming this spazz, girls. Huggs to you!

SG, hope those hormones settle down nicely again soon ;) And I wish you and your b/f all the best. Both of you seem to be so willing to work things through, that's one of the main things :D.

Well, I don't want to drag this thread along but I just thought that I'd post that my doctor is taking me off these bc pills and putting me back on my old ones. Never had any problems with the old ones. My former health care provider put me on these different ones thinking that they would 'cure' the physical problems that I'm having. They calmed down my symptoms but they're not going to cure the problem it turns out. (I have to have minor surgery instead.

Instead, they've made me act like a lunatic off and on for 5 months, to the point where I nearly lost my relationship with my boyfriend....twice. And while things are fine at home, the bruising will take a few days to go away.

Make that a nice filet, 'kay?

Oh, you mean he's going to be a jerk someday and I'm going to want to kick his bu**? Say it ain't so! *giggle* He knows that he has his moments, too.

Weathering the storms is tough, on both of us, but I guess ultimately it will help me be more confident in our relationship. Just trying to find a silver lining.


Both of us just hate to argue, argue for real, because we get along so well, really. Plus, we both get depressed when we argue and I can even get just plain immobilized. It's like it throws the whole world out of whack. We're fine. He's even giving me extra kisses and I love you's to show me that he's over it. This does help. :)