why do people fear long term relationship or marriage

twodhiambo@yahoo.com (billuster@agelesslove.com)
hello peeps
i have been sitting on the stands pondering why do people both women and men fear about long term relationship,which can either lead to marriage.to me thats the best relationship that i am craving to have,imagine you have settled down and you are not looking for a loved one with a 50/50 chance that may be or may be not that i am going to find her or him here,i pray that i be given the chance to experience this long term relationship.

are you out there and you are wondering where to find the love.
with lots of love from
thomas

Originally posted by billuster
twodhiambo@yahoo.com (billuster@agelesslove.com)
hello peeps
i have been sitting on the stands pondering why do people both women and men fear about long term relationship,which can either lead to marriage.to me thats the best relationship that i am craving to have,imagine you have settled down and you are not looking for a loved one with a 50/50 chance that may be or may be not that i am going to find her or him here,i pray that i be given the chance to experience this long term relationship.

are you out there and you are wondering where to find the love.
with lots of love from
thomas

Because of the reproductive strategy of our species.

Originally posted by Nessa
please expand and explain in detail

Some species are exclusively monogomous, others are not. Primates are not. One-male/one female marriage is a Western Christian cultural invention, and not universal at all. Some Mormons are polygamous, and many other exotic peoples are too. Monogamy isn't 'natural' for homo sapiens.

Originally posted by Nessa
oh hon your preaching to the choir

I'm not making judgements, moral or cultural, I'm just stating the evolutionary/biological facts.

So, it's incorrect to say that "people fear long term relationship or marriage". It would be more accurate to say that we're always trying to maximize our reproductive success, which involves complexities. Why should a male continue with a non-fertile female? As a reproductive strategy, it's a dead end.

"Note on the human species, Homo sapiens - research in sociology demonstrates that natural human societies were: 44% - polygynous, 39% monogamous with occasional polygyny, and the rest monogamous. "

http://www.mscok.edu/~bstewart/bstewart/classes/zoology/selection.htm

I remember reading a huge study by a woman whose name is Dr. Helen Fisher.....she wrote a book called "Why We Love"......

her research basically bore out the fact that throughout history, men and women generally do okay for about four years together. That's the amount of time it takes to get an infant to a substantial place in it's life where it's somewhat self sufficient. She harkens back to our hunter/gatherer days when this is the time a woman was pretty dependent on a man if she was doing most of the child care. After four years, partnerships tend to dissipate, or, for example, in a culture like ours where monogamy is the expectation, the four year mark is a key point where infidelity often occurs, or there is rumbling about unhappiness and some looking around to see what else is out there...I've noticed this to be true over the years in the partnerships I've known. Some worked through it, and as statistics bear out, about half of them did not.

It's an interesting subject.

I think people fear it because they cannot predict it. If they've been burned badly (as both I and my G/f have), then they fear the possibility of such a thing happening again.

DanE

Wow Katmeup, that's interesting. Now, when we hit the 4 year mark, though, I'm going to be so worried!! Seriously, though, it does make a lot of sense.

Originally posted by CabinFever
Wow Katmeup, that's interesting. Now, when we hit the 4 year mark, though, I'm going to be so worried!! Seriously, though, it does make a lot of sense.

Perhaps the 'seven year itch' is biologically founded?

Dan....I think thats correct in many cases.
I've known of women and men that were hurt in previous relationships that intentionally will not allow themselves to get close in new relationships. Its as if they will give only some much of themself, yet keep a hidden wall up, so if things do go wrong again, they wont be as hurt.
Lots of these people also find themselves in new relationships and wonder why they dont work out. Fear of being hurt can be the end of relationships, it cause jealousy, deceit, trust issues and other problems.

Originally posted by katmeup7
I remember reading a huge study by a woman whose name is Dr. Helen Fisher.....she wrote a book called "Why We Love"......

her research basically bore out the fact that throughout history, men and women generally do okay for about four years together.

I've heard of these studies, but never thought much before about how applicable they are to people who are out of their reproductive years. Wonder if she studied people who were older at all.

People make such a big deal about biology and use it to justify all kinds of behaviors, but...only *part* of our lives are reproductive at this point in history. We are so far from having to live by so many biological rules anymore that I wonder how beholden to them we really are.

To me anyway, these types of arguments are far too narrow. Having been an academic myself, I know how conclusions are supposed to be drawn, but also know that being certain of causes and effects is much tougher than it ever sounds when the papers get published.

*shrug*

I don't think very many studies have been done on people past reproductive age because historically people haven't lived as long as they are currently living. At the turn of the century in 1900, the average life-span of a woman was 50 years.

I agree with you that many of the rules no longer apply, or at least have to be modified to accommodate the 21st century, however, I'm of the opinion that, in the end, we're still animals and driven by biological instincts to a larger degree than we'd probably like to admit. :-)

to believe that our humanity is a species merely driven by biological factor of the survival of the fittest. As a female at 41, and not fertile it feel strange to read that, I quote ornellopederzol…

”So, it's incorrect to say that "people fear long term relationship or marriage". It would be more accurate to say that we're always trying to maximize our reproductive success, which involves complexities. Why should a male continue with a non-fertile female? As a reproductive strategy, it's a dead end”.

Does that mean that I’m from now on should be happy for one night stands or have to accept that a man don’t want to have a serious relationship because I couldn’t give him a baby? Then I don’t think I gonna have a great future when it comes to relationship….

And I say, echoing my earlier post, that it just isn't true that we are "always" trying to maximize reproductive success. It's only -one- reason for being in a relationship. If just being together for kids were the case, then wouldn't couples -actually- split right after achieving that more often than they do, all over the world?

Those who believe monogamy is a "Western/Christian" invention are wrong, but no matter how you want to slice it, it is the norm in OUR society. Thing have changed so much socially so that we now recognize the sovereignty of the female person, and we won't be going back to the "good old days" of multiple wives - so guys can fantasize about harems all they like, but it's unlikely to get any further than that. (Of course, they always seem to love that idea but don't care much for the concept of being husband #3 themselves.)

I always wonder about the so-called partners of those who have these attitudes about women. Do their men really have such little respect for them to believe this hard in wanting more rights than women? And to argue that men have no use for a woman after reproductive age? I hope not. I thought we were out of ye olde dark ages.

Originally posted by GoldieCat
so guys can fantasize about harems all they like

Sorry, no harem fantasy here; a harem sounds like more bother than worth. Expensive too:eek: .

My lady is more than enough for me, and for several lifetimes:D

DanE

Originally posted by Air
to believe that our humanity is a species merely driven by biological factor of the survival of the fittest. As a female at 41, and not fertile it feel strange to read that, I quote ornellopederzol…

”So, it's incorrect to say that "people fear long term relationship or marriage". It would be more accurate to say that we're always trying to maximize our reproductive success, which involves complexities. Why should a male continue with a non-fertile female? As a reproductive strategy, it's a dead end”.

Does that mean that I’m from now on should be happy for one night stands or have to accept that a man don’t want to have a serious relationship because I couldn’t give him a baby? Then I don’t think I gonna have a great future when it comes to relationship….

If you're not fertile and he is, ....there is little incentive to be with you if he wants to reproduce....

Originally posted by GoldieCat


1. And I say, echoing my earlier post, that it just isn't true that we are "always" trying to maximize reproductive success.

2. It's only -one- reason for being in a relationship.

3. If just being together for kids were the case, then wouldn't couples -actually- split right after achieving that more often than they do, all over the world?

4. Those who believe monogamy is a "Western/Christian" invention are wrong, but no matter how you want to slice it, it is the norm in OUR society. Thing have changed so much socially so that we now recognize the sovereignty of the female person, and we won't be going back to the "good old days" of multiple wives - so guys can fantasize about harems all they like, but it's unlikely to get any further than that. (Of course, they always seem to love that idea but don't care much for the concept of being husband #3 themselves.)

I always wonder about the so-called partners of those who have these attitudes about women. Do their men really have such little respect for them to believe this hard in wanting more rights than women? And to argue that men have no use for a woman after reproductive age? I hope not. I thought we were out of ye olde dark ages.

1. Nature rewards those with maximum reproductive success with allowing them to dominate the population.

2. What's a 'relationship'?

3. To do it again!

4. Don't you know about ancient Greek and Roman sexual practices? About Arab marriage? About Pacific island sexual practices? African? Chinese?

5. Multiple wives has been commoner than single wives, throughout history.

Alot of the historical impetus behind multiple marriages was that women used to die in childbirth quite regularly. Even in Mary Shelley's time, the odds were about 1 in 3. That, of course, is not true any longer - at least in Western industrialized society - where we've got in down to 1 in 3700.

Originally posted by Desert Spring
Alot of the historical impetus behind multiple marriages was that women used to die in childbirth quite regularly. Even in Mary Shelley's time, the odds were about 1 in 3. That, of course, is not true any longer - at least in Western industrialized society - where we've got in down to 1 in 3700.

Of course. But our behavior is based on our species' history, not modern times.

But if the reason for the behavior is no longer true, then being thinking, cognitive creatures, we get to change our behavior. And some of us have....:)

ornellopederzol,
What would you make of a single man who has had a vasectomy then? Would he no longer look for a partner? Or only a partner who also lacks reproductive ability? Or is he still a slave to an uncontrollable urge to reproduce, despite having made a conscious decision to NOT reproduce??? :confused:

Originally posted by CabinFever
ornellopederzol,
What would you make of a single man who has had a vasectomy then? Would he no longer look for a partner? Or only a partner who also lacks reproductive ability? Or is he still a slave to an uncontrollable urge to reproduce, despite having made a conscious decision to NOT reproduce??? :confused:

What is the title of this thread?

Originally posted by ornellopederzol
What's a 'relationship'?

Well, if ya have to ask.....

DanE

Originally posted by Dan Echo
Well, if ya have to ask.....

DanE

I don't mean the popular meaning of the term, which is basically meaningless.

I’m not especially religious and I’m not one of those who think science has better answers to the big questions in life. But I do know that elderly people who are beyond their ability to give birth fall in love. I also know that love is something that most people mention as the most important in their life. Why are many afraid to commit or to have long relationships? Perhaps it’s more a question of earlier experiences of failure, choosing the wrong partner, have different goals in life, growing apart, other family matters that affects your relationship, more than a question of biological matters?

It takes a lot of work to make a relationship work and as this “single-culture” gets more popular many people question the effort it takes to be two. Today it’s also more okay to have different sexual partners, to be homo-bi or to have other sexual preferences. And also they seem to have the same problems as hetero sexual in their relationships who mainly isn’t primary for giving birth and to bring up children, even if the homosexual fight a lot over here to be legally allowed to adopt children.

I have no answers on the topic of this discussion but I do think the answers is more complicated than it just have to do with biological factors – even if that surely is a difficult and interesting research about how our hormones affect us in several ways even on how and when we fall in love…

Very good points, Air.

I know that I cannot think of any biologiocal necessity for me being with my lady; she cannot have children, being past the age, and I have plenty of offers from younger, attractive and fertile ladies, which I always turn down out of love for my lady. Certainly, the need to reproduce is not what drives a homosexual or lesbian relationship, so simple reproduction is clearly not the only possible answer.

DanE

Very good points, Air.

I know that I cannot think of any biologiocal necessity for me being with my lady; she cannot have children, being past the age, and I have plenty of offers from younger, attractive and fertile ladies, which I always turn down out of love for my lady. Certainly, the need to reproduce is not what drives a homosexual or lesbian relationship, so simple reproduction is clearly not the only possible answer.

DanE


But it is based on that biological necessity....

A relationship is when two people are friends for life or at least long term. And I haven't found people that are afraid of that long term relationship. A marriage is a totally different thing. To begin with there are a few animal species that are monogamus. I believe a swan is one and there are others in the animal kingdom.

There are even tribes of people who practice polyandry. The woman does prepare the meal for all of her husbands and they sit down together for that meal. I believe the house is the woman's and a husband has to leave something that identifies him on the outside of the house, when he is inside with his wife, so that the other husbands don't come in. When a child is born, it is the child of the family. That even makes more sense as a woman is able to please many men and a man generally needs to wait awhile after pleasing one woman.

But as far as marriage, I don't think there is a fear of marriage. I don't fear marriage, but marriage is not something that I want to experience again. And the reason has nothing to do with sex as I am past the child bearing age.

A long term marriage has to be entered into by a person willing to put the happiness of their partner above their own in every instance. They have to practice love. Which isn't done too often in our present society. I am not inclined to want to put someone else's happiness before mine. I work hard to make it thru life. Why should I be responsible for someone else's happiness? They can be responsible for their own happiness. And with that attitude I would not have a long term marriage. It might last awhile but soon, the facade would be too hard to maintain. or if it had already dropped, there would be unhappiness, as neither partner would be getting the treatment they felt they were entitled to as a spouse. So then you have to go thru the really horrible or simply automatic responses to a divorce. And everyone expects you to be out there looking again for another spouse? No thank you!

And since men and women are seeming to learn this cycle, most prefer a relationship free of bonds of marriage, but also being free to love and yet not have to be willing to put the happiness of their partner above their own. You have your friends, I'll have mine to some extent. We will do things as a couple but not get in each other's space too much. Since I haven't trusted you with all of my heart and my happiness doesn't reside with you, If you want to move on , that's your business, I'll just to have to decide whether I really want another partner to take your place.

I have lately wondered a lot about "attraction", the chemistry behind it and how hormones strike us in the most peculiar way. How does “attraction” affect us? Does “attraction” make us do worse choice when it comes to a partnership?

I have male friends, some at my age around 40, some older, up to 20 years older and some younger, up to 20 years younger. They are all decent, nice, clever and good friends. But to be together with them sexually, no, not a chance! Yes, I could have a harem if I would. I could make all my male friends to my lovers, but that wouldn’t make me feel better. I need more than sex to feel good.

I’d never been married, but I’d lived in a long caring and loving partnership for 16 years. And I know what it takes to make a relationship work. Marriage for me is mostly about fulfilling what society think is needed of two people living together. But saying that there is a small part in me that sometime in life also wanting experience that feeling of wearing a white dress and hear the wedding bells..

Anyhow, I don’t think relationship or marriage is a one man work. There are two in a relation that must be willing to put both their partners need and their own need in focus. There will be times when you’re not synchronised and there will be times where you two feel like being just one soul. And you can never rely on another person for your own well being. You have to make sure you feel well, work well and love well to be able to have a good relationship. That is nothing you can demand of your partner that he/she should be able to give you. A partner could only make you feel more than well, work more than well and love more than well :) You and your partner should support each other in the right direction.

On my behalf I know I have to work with “trust-issues” and also my self esteem. After my break up I really can’t let another person into my life. I feel insecure and afraid, wanting to protect myself from complicated relations and feelings. I worked hard to get where I am now and I don’t want any to take advantage of my tears and sweat to build up a social security for myself, in that way a fear another relationship. Often I think it’s easier if I met a man living on my own, having separated lives and perhaps sharing some common interest and having some common activities. But then I wonder if that really is to have a “real” relationship?

My experience with my ex who was afraid of marriage was that it can stem from fear of failure. This guy was an extreme perfectionist to the point where he would prcrastinate so much that he wouldn't even start a project because he was afraid of not doing it right. It was the same thing with marriage. He was so afraid of putting it all on the line and "failing" at it.

I'm wondering if this is even more prevalent with the divorce statistics we see now. It can just seem hopeless to even try.

Most fear of doing ANYTHING is attributable to not wanting to be trapped. You "think" it's what you want, but how do you know for sure that you won't change your mind later? People know divorce is a big, icky, hurtful mess that they really don't want any part of, but I think everyone struggles with how you promise what, fundamentally, can't really be guaranteed. Namely, your heart.

I have to agree with Desert Spring. Some men just don't want to make any kind of commitment to a relationship. A person can be in a long term relationship without considering marriage. People live together all the time without that little piece of paper. So what's the problem? I guess some YM are in so many relationships at the same time, that they just are not free to make a long time relationship. Is it out of fear of being rejected or that it might not work down the road a piece. I just don't get it. If the chemistry is right and you're compatible with each other, what's the problem? Also, I must admit people have a tendency to change once they become married. Why? do they feel they own each other and become controlling freaks? Actually, right now, I wish I was in a long term rrelationship and I know there's still someone out there for me.

Look, I hate to be overly-simplistic .... but ......(she said, being overly-simplistic) there's three possibilities if someone doesn't want to commit:

Possiblity #1: They are not capable of it and never will be.
Possibility #2: They haven't found "the one" yet.
Possibility #3: They have found "the one" but "the one" is not available to them.

People argue with me, "Oh, times have changed.", "Oh, you don't know how it is today.", "Oh, that's only when you're younger. When you get older, life becomes more complex."

Sorry, it still looks pretty simple from what I've seen.

AND, there are people that are quite capable of getting married, but NOT capable or willing to commit.

Again, maybe it's overly-simplistic, but when I hear the words "unable to commit" I wonder -- Haven't you ever been in love? Don't you know what it feels like - that NOTHING could stop you from being with that person? OR (and this is a much more delicate question) Haven't you ever been loved? Or haven't you ever seen someone in love? If not, listen to the words in "When A Man Loves A Woman" because when you're really in love, that's how it is.

Case in point, I don't know if it's true in all situations, but I have heard many elderly people say that they won't get married because it will cut thier social security income and yet, everyday people well-past retirement age get married. Why? Because they're in love and, to them, that's what people who are in love do.