Anti-Adultry -- No Cheats Allowed

I've noticed that site is very Anti-Adultry.
I'm wondering why?
Is it all from personal experiences?
Were you cheated on or did you do the cheating?

I'm not saying that anyone should condone any type of behavior.

But it does sound as if few here can believe that people can actually wake up and find themselves in marriages that just arent working and you can't get out it right away.
If this does happen, should they deny themselves the attention from someone else..

Just wondering .......because from what I've seen on the boards we're saying if you're cheating on your spouse you dont need support. We're almost saying that you need to be bashed for cheating.
When I believe that if you're cheating on someone you have to be dealing with a lot of issues and thus would need a great deal of support.

No, people not CONDONING cheating doesn't mean we don't recognize the need for support. However, most of these "cheating" threads are just asking for VALIDATION to their ways... it ain't gonna happen here. It shouldn't. It's hurtful to others. And supporting their relationships with YM or YW while they're married, by supporting THEM, is DEFACTO supporting their bad behavior and hurtful attitudes towards others...
~phos

I have to agree, that as soon as anyone mentions that they are in a relationship outside their marriage, or even tempted to stray from their marriage, the posts towards them are harsh and sometimes, cruel.

Yes, affairs happen, and there are some people that come here looking for nothing more than validation that having an affair is okay - affairs are not okay.

My point of view is to always encourage the person to examine their marriage and take care of that situation's problems first before immersing themselves in a new relationship. Unfinished business always has a way of coming to the surface sooner or later demanding attention - there is no way to avoid it, hide it or run from it.

The other truth about affairs is the risk of so many innocent people getting hurt. Sure, when no one knows about the affair, all is bliss, but sooner or later the truth comes out and so many people are effected by it. Hearts are broken, anger is unleashed and all that is "bliss" flies right out the window.

I think we should, (and can), express our disapproval towards affairs in a more constructive manner without making the person feel as though they are being publicly stoned.

Miss B, you are so right. I am one of the "anti-cheaters" and I actually do try to not focus on the cheating aspect of a poster's question, but it's just like a big bull's eye to me and I have a hard time getting past it.

I completely agree - I would imagine that someone cheating is probably torn, confused and very much in need of support (unless they are completey emotionless or self-absorbed).

My experience with my ex, was that he'd cheat and then tell me what happened. Yes, this may be the honest thing to do, and some may commend him on doing that. But, it was also enabling for him. He'd tell me, I'd forgive him, he'd have it off his chest, we'd move on, and then he'd do it again....cycle repeats itself. So, I ended up having very little tolerance for someone who cheats and then feels bad about it. I got to the point where I just didn't want to hear it anymore - I didn't want to know. My opinion, as a result, is, well, if you feel so bad, then why did you do it? You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

All that said, I do think this is a support site, and we should be giving support to those who are asking for it. I'm not saying that we should condone cheating, but if they come here for an issue other than cheating specifically, then we should address that issue and help them with that. I think that it can be difficult for some people to open up in a public forum like this - without getting shot down immediately. I just find this difficult to do...but something I personally want to work on. :)

The anti-anything crowd has gotten steadily worse. The Moral Minority comes out in full force if they don't like something about your relationship whether it's that you are married, or anything else. When I started here back in 1999 I was still married and managed not to get lynched. That wouldn't be true today.

Times have changed. People think that "American Idol" is entertainment when in reality it is televised cruelty. We laugh at another's pain and feel justified in doing so. We demand higher standards in others than we are willing to live up to and get very unpleasant when others don't see it our way.

Someone very wise once said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." I guess this site must just be full of people without sin.

Peace,
Jane (57) who is happily married to Dave (31)

Originally posted by Amina315
spin your partner dosi doh...round and round and round we go....
In what way is this comment constructive towards this thread?

Originally posted by BearsAngel
The anti-anything crowd has gotten steadily worse. The Moral Minority comes out in full force if they don't like something about your relationship whether it's that you are married, or anything else. When I started here back in 1999 I was still married and managed not to get lynched. That wouldn't be true today.

Times have changed. People think that "American Idol" is entertainment when in reality it is televised cruelty. We laugh at another's pain and feel justified in doing so. We demand higher standards in others than we are willing to live up to and get very unpleasant when others don't see it our way.

Someone very wise once said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." I guess this site must just be full of people without sin.

Peace,
Jane (57) who is happily married to Dave (31)

Agreed! There is someone out there that finds fault with you and/or your relationship whatever the circumstance.

Bears...you were a lucky one. :)
Because from what I read here today you would probably get lynched or it would feel that way. :)

This is a public board (its on the internet) and its a support board. Therefore, shouldn't the person thats married yet seeking support get the same support as the single couples ??

Originally posted by Amina315
Sage, honey...if I bother you that much, how bout you just ignore me?
My comment was symbolic and important enough for me to feel the need to post it.
Thanks for asking, so glad you're back!

Placing your tired sarcasm aside, shouldn't one's post be somewhat symbolic and a little bit important to the OP, or are you in the other, er excuse me, I mean, another world all your own today?

And yes, feels dandy to be back.

miss b... a true observation. very sadly. some just refuse to see someone else's grey... just their own, and call it something else.

i don't think those that come here, married, having an affair are asking if its ok. just need a sounding board, they already know they are in trouble. and unfortunately, have seen a few hangings here

Originally posted by miss b
Bears...you were a lucky one. :)
Because from what I read here today you would probably get lynched or it would feel that way. :)
This is a public board (its on the internet) and its a support board. Therefore, shouldn't the person thats married yet seeking support get the same support as the single couples ??
I agree with you missb, but I also feel that in supporting that person, we need to encourage them to evaluate the problem in their marriage before causing more problems.
I truly understand how affairs happen, but the bottom line is that when you are married, unless you have an "open marriage", one's actions effect the other - greatly. Especially infidelity.
I can't honestly condone or encourage anyone having an affair to disregard their marriage and skip off into the sunset with the other person.
But what I can do is offer my opinion without making them feel defensive or shameful for being honest.

Well, I imagine everyone who knows me on this board, is waiting to see if I will jump in on this one. So here goes.

Do I believe that those who cheat need support? No, they need guidance. They needed someone way before now to teach them about integrity. Integrity is like virginity . . . once you lose it, it's gone!!

It seems that too many people today want to do whatever they want regardless of who they may hurt or how many toes they have to step on to do what they want. They don't want to be responsible or accountable for their actions. They just want to think about themselves and to hell with everyone else. I do not subscribe to that theory on any level.

Their word not worth anything these days? If you make a commitment or give your word that should mean something. It's kind of like a verbal contract and people should be able to rely on that.

If a person has been dishonest and their word is worth nothing, would you trust them? Why would you trust them? And I mean would you trust them on any level? I would not want them as a friend I might have to rely on for something. I would not want to do business with them. Why would I? I wouldn't be able to count on them.

And one step further than that . . . if you would be that dishonest with the one person you have stood before God and professed your love for and made that ultimate commitment, then I would think you would have no problem in being way more dishonest with me.

I believe in doing things that make you happy . . . I'm certainly not against that . . . but my credo on that is that I'm going to do whatever makes me happy as long as it's not illegal or does not hurt anyone.

For those of you who do cheat . . . have you ever been hurt? How did you feel about that? How did you feel about that person? Would you ever trust that person again? Why would you? Do you feel guilty for cheating? Do you feel guilty for hurting someone?

If a person is in an unhappy marriage, then maybe they need to try to find the underlying reasons for that unhappiness and try to correct it. I worked for attorneys for 20 years and I can tell you that there are a whole horde of people who will chuck a marriage because they are just too lazy to work at it. No one ever said marriage was easy. It's work. But if you loved that person enough to marry them in the first place, then you should be willing to put some effort into the marriage.

If things deteriorate to the point that there is no saving the marriage, then GET OUT OF IT!!! I'm curious as to why a person can't do that. I will tell you . . . most of the time it's FINANCES. It's all about money. Well, I would live on the streets and do whatever jobs I could if it meant I could be happy.

Then, of course, there is the whole Christian aspect of adultry, which I'm not even going to go into.

No, I won't and have no intention of validating these relationships. You may not agree with me, but you can be sure of one thing: Those who know me know they can count on me and that I will be honest with them.

Actually I don't think we can just offer our opinion that someone is doing a bad thing by cheating while simultaneously supporting them without passing along shame. (errr please forgive that horrific sentence)

What I notice most is that anyone posting about their relationship while still in a marriage is the receipient of multiple posts (lots and lots and lots) telling them that they need to focus on their marriage, that they are harming others, and that what they are doing is just plain BAD. As if the poster really doesn't know any of that already... and as if the previous 6 posts don't say all of that already... and it doesn't at all stop the next moral indignation post.

It does create shame and the feeling that one has just been stoned or witnessed a stoning.

I do know bashing when I read it.

You can dress it up and call it support if you want too. But I've seen bashing in regards to married people coming to these boards looking for support.

If its there why not admit its there.

Originally posted by miss b
I do know bashing when I read it.

You can dress it up and call it support if you want too. But I've seen bashing in regards to married people coming to these boards looking for support.

If its there why not admit its there.

Umm yea what she said... thats what I meant to... but much more "round about". :p

/edit: Yea I hear you Amina... but it does get a stoning feeling when there are 6 or 7 posts all denouncing the OP and essentially saying the same things over and over and over... work on your relationship, your doing bad, your a cheater, your hurting your spouse... I guess my question is this... if you are the 7th poster about to post that same thing... why are you? whats your motivation?

cute Marcy..

And if you're the 12th poster about to post that same thing....but this time add how wrong I am for cheating and dont forget to tell me how many people I'm hurting and by all means dont forget to tell me how selfish I am........

Dont you think I got that by now .........

Chances are I wouldnt be here if all those things hadn't crossed my mind at some point or another !

Marriage changes the focal point. When the probelm is within the marriage, be it age-gap or not, support is fine and proper.

But, imo, when suport is asked concernig a love/physical relationship outside of the marriage, me thinks that the marriage is what needs the concern, not the extra curricular activities.

So, its the focus that is the crux of the problem. Focusing on the 'other' ignores the proper.

Singles not included here for obvious reasons.

jmo.

And you are RIGHT ON, Mr. Salt!!!!!

Originally posted by Amina315

To some of you it may be a shock...but there are MANY people who do not THINK, do not truly THINK about OTHERS when it comes to having an affair. So to say we are telling them things they already know is not necessarily true. Sure, on some cerebral level we all know right from wrong, but I know many women and men who almost feel like they have a RIGHT to have an affair b/c they no longer like the person their spouse has become. People like that need a reality check...lust and wonderment can cloud of the vision of many people...

I agree with much here. There are those who rationalize what they are doing wrong to such a degree that they actually convince themselves that an affair is "okay". They may think it is okay because their spouse is cold, distant, cruel, undemonstrative, and/or selfish. They may think it is okay because they have put up with so much terrible 'stuff' or have been emotionally neglected. They actually feel that they deserve this other person to give them what they need and/or desire, (and didn't get in the marriage). Whatever the case may be, there are many, that refuse to see the reality of what they are doing- hence, they really don't know the severity of their actions. Are they stupid? Are they naive? Are they trying use Ageless as a means to validate their reckless behavior? Guess you could answer yes to all of those.

I think some of the people that come here and tell us of their infidelity do so to just let it out - to purge the secret, to have an arena to actually be an accepted couple in society with their affair partner. Can we do that? Can we embrace the adulterer with a clear conscience and not give another thought to the road of emotional destruction they leave behind for their spouse and their children?

I can only offer what I have to offer and that is some sound advice to reach in and hopefully speak to their moral conscience and get them to face the problems of their marriage and forego the affair.

Bashing apparently can be viewed as the giving of advice contrary to that wished to be received.

Well, that seems to be a spin I am getting wind of.
:eek:

Why do we keep telling them? Because if they hear it enough, they might believe it. Has it occurred to you, Marcy, that many of these people have already heard everything we are saying from their real life friends and family who happen to know about their situation? And maybe they come here to see if they will get a different viewpoint. And if they can get a viewpoint from enough people here to validate what they are doing they think they aren't doing anything wrong. They are looking for enough people to agree with them. And if enough of us come on and say we do not agree, it is wrong and they need to get help in their marriage or get out of it, maybe we are doing some good in telling them what they are already hearing and not telling them what they a looking to hear. Make sense??:confused:

Actually I think you are right Salt.

Bashing is to criticize another harshly. I think when you are critical over and over and over... this *is* bashing. Afterall you can't actually bash someone with agreement. Its contrary to the definition of the word.

Yes that has occurred to me Peachy. I know that many things have been said to me in my real life and here and everywhere. Some of things I hear are relevant and important, some are not, just because it is said to me repeatedly doesn't make it correct.

I read the post to question if we as a community bash cheaters.... in my opinion... under the defination of the word bash.. the answer to that is a very clear yes. The question of the appropriateness of that is another thing.

I would not do it, but I understand another's need to do so.

Ya know, I have to admit, it amazes me that some of these people having affairs, or are thinking about having affairs, even admit to being married. They could easily come here and chat about their affair partner, never mention they are married and we would welcome them as warmly as a new puppy.
(I would guess there is a good amount of members that do that anyway..)

I give them credit for being honest and in that, I am honest in return. I guess if they have 15 people lined up in a thread being just as honest, that is something they have to digest.
But once again, we can make our points, without being crappy about it and I agree, focus on the marriage aspect, not the affair.

Now remember, we are talking about 'within' a marriage, not seperated.

Seperation implies that one 'intends' to permanently leave the marriage. Though sometimes there is reconcilliation, the act of seperation shows an intent.

Originally posted by SaltwaterBlues
Now remember, we are talking about 'within' a marriage, not seperated.
Seperation implies that one 'intends' to permanently leave the marriage. Though sometimes there is reconcilliation, the act of seperation shows an intent.

In my mind, the person that is separated, meaning living away from the spouse and even better, legally separated, they are free to do as they will and will get no flack from me for having relationships with others.

Originally posted by marcy


Bashing is to criticize another harshly.

Au Contraire. Bashing and being harsh are not synonomous at all.

Bashing is criticism where none is deserved, whether asked for or otherwise.

Harshness applied can be attributed to the thickness of the wall being penetrated, else a feather and a pick-axe could do the same job..

After all of the bashing...aka support about getting out of the marriage ...... where does the support come in at regarding a new age-gap relationship? It doesn't .....
We make the broken marriage the focus and proceed to tell them how wrong they are and how they should focus on the marriage, etc. This when repeated over and over becomes bashing.

Isnt this an age-gap relationship support group ?

Originally posted by SaltwaterBlues
Au Contraire. Bashing and being harsh are not synonomous at all.
Bashing is criticism where none is deserved, whether asked for or otherwise.


I agree, such as "Gay Bashing" - a very good example of bashing as far as I am concerned.

I don't think we bash adulterers here, but yes, there are those that are quite harsh in their comments towards them.

Sage........I think you are correct in saying that if the person came in and didnt mention the fact that they were married they would be welcomed with open arms.

They would be given advice regarding their age-gap relationship and probably some very good advice.

So why is it that when the person says they are in a broken marriage.......the age-gap relationship aspect is totally forgotten about.

So you really have to give them credit for being honest or not reading the other post before they post their story themselves. :)

Originally posted by miss b
After all of the bashing...aka support about getting out of the marriage ...... where does the support come in at regarding a new age-gap relationship?

It doesn't .....

Right!

How could it? Again, you are asking for validation.

We make the broken marriage the focus and proceed to tell them how wrong they are and how they should focus on the marriage, etc. This when repeated over and over becomes bashing.

1+1=2. I shall repeat it till you get it.

Isnt this an age-gap relationship support group ? Ah.... yes. But it is not an adultry support group.

Originally posted by miss b
After all of the bashing...aka support about getting out of the marriage ...... where does the support come in at regarding a new age-gap relationship? It doesn't .....
We make the broken marriage the focus and proceed to tell them how wrong they are and how they should focus on the marriage, etc. This when repeated over and over becomes bashing.
Isnt this an age-gap relationship support group ?

missb, I see your point, but don't quite agree here.
I would not call it 'bashing'. Yes, the same point gets pounded over and over, but it's not the same.
What you see as bashing and not being support is support to many of us. I am supporting that person to make the best choice they can in their situation - which is to fix the marriage before having a realtionship with another.
I said it in another post:

Clean up the mess at hand before making another mess.

When a person tells us they are married, yet they are gushing like a teenager over a new love in their life are we supposed to over-look that?
I can't with a full conscience, do that.
I will not endorse infidelity by dismissing it.

I am sure that there are lots of definations Salt. Mine came directly from Dictionary.com.

missb,
would you support an age gap relationship between a 15 year old and a 40 year old?
No, (at least I hope not).
We have to have a shred of responsibilty here and accepting and/or endorsing adverse behavior for the sake of it being an age gap relationship is ridiculous.

Originally posted by marcy
I am sure that there are lots of definations Salt. Mine came directly from Dictionary.com.

No problem.

Though I detect the thickness of the wall to be greater than anticipated;)

*head in full swing* :p

Amina.....you are correct in that you can choose to support them or not. You can do that with anyone married or not.

My point is that I've never known anyone that was having an affair that didnt realize that they were doing wrong, they know this already. They didnt need me to tell them this. So when I see the repeated post of people telling them how wrong they are it makes me wonder...Whats the point.

Could it be the you feel better about yourself when you tell me how low I am on the human being todem pole for having an affair.

Could it be that you're offering genuine support....lets hope so :)

Or could it be that you've been cheated on yourself and you dont care what my issues are you just want to vent at me for your past bad relationship.

Makes you go hmmmmmmmmm....na na na na :)

Originally posted by miss b
Makes you go hmmmmmmmmm....na na na na :)


. . . hey hey hey, good-bye. . . "

I like that song. Just thought I'd throw that in here. :)

Originally posted by Sage
"Gay Bashing" - a very good example of bashing as far as I am concerned.



I went to Dict.com ... did not know that.....

But, works for me. :D

Though Sage pointed out another aspect of it. Bashing has a long reach.

Sage...No, I couldnt support a 15 yr old and a 40 yr old. Its against the law. But I think there are ways to explain that to them without the repeated you are a bad person support.

Which is the same as I feel about someone who comes in here that is married.

Again, most people that are married, know they are, and they know when they are cheating that they are wrong. But to them they may have circumstances in their lives that prevent them from getting out of the marriage. I dont see where ...... being harsh..bashing...or whatever Salt wants to call it helps :)

MissB,

Would you offer advice (picking up young girls) to a pedophile who admits that what he does is wrong, but asks for your advice anyway?

Or would you not counsel him on his problem?

edit: after reading a few other posts,,,

Your missing the point MissB. To offer advice, where such advice is tantamount to condoning, to one who knows what one is doing to be wrong, is wrong.

btw, adultry is illegal in many states and parts of the world. Here, it is grounds for divorce.

Agreed that is the full definition given at dictionary.com. I stand by my posts though, as I believe that they accurately describe the community response.

Amina.....honey dont call Vegas...thats wasting your dime. .I've been cheated on and I've cheated... And no I'm not ashamed of my game.

Full circle is correct.......you will notice the orginal post asked:

If the bashing was due to people having been cheated on.

Generally speaking, I avoid MOST threads in RS regarding adultry. However, we are short... oh four or more really vocal members and its kind of our duty to pick up the slack and respond to threads we don't usually respond to...

... but, I was only honest. This site has a strong anti-adultry sentiment (it does, we all know it... )

Did I say anything to that poster about how horrible of a person they are? Ummm... no. Did I chastise them or tell them they are low, pathetic excuses for humans? NO. I simply cannot offer them support for their ADULTEROUS relationship.

And think they should be given fair warning that discussing these things on a public forum IS OPEN GAME for being told they are being immoral.

~phosphorescent

Amina.........how funny you took those ASSumptions to mean YOU

Actually, this is the focus of the thread...:


Anti-Adultry -- No Cheats Allowed

I've noticed that site is very Anti-Adultry.
I'm wondering why?
Is it all from personal experiences?
Were you cheated on or did you do the cheating?

Me thinks you've been responded to quite well MissB.

edit:

LOL...

Perhaps....
MissB wants the membership to hang out the laundry......

Fos...I can appreciate your being honest and And I hope that orignal poster did too.

That actually got me to thinking why are we so anti-adultry?

That was why I posted here. Plus I've read some of the threads from past post and it seems that we eat them up. Moreso the men.

Originally posted by SaltwaterBlues
Actually, this is the focus of the thread...:



Me thinks you've been responded to quite well MissB.

I agree and now I am off to work.
Glean what you will from the comments missb.
I have contributed all I have.

Amina I apologize for putting your name in there. It was meant for only the first area of the post.

And I'm sorry that you felt the entire post was aimed at you.

As for game....you're younger than I am. And I'm sure we run in different circles, but game in that sentence was a slang term.
It meant that I have done nothing in a relationship that I'm ashamed of. And believe me I know what a loving relationship is and I also know when I'm not in one.

Please dont think that only children or teens play games..many an adult has played games and will continue to play games, including games of the heart for that matter.

I didnt say that I had game...(I'm assuming you mean that in another slang term) .... But I've had game before. And when I was cheating on my ex-I had much game, just as he did when he cheated on me. Am I ashamed of it. No. Would I do it again.....No. Did I learn from it. Way more than you can imagine.

Originally posted by Amina315
lmfao @ joe...that's a DIFFERENT SONG you noodle!!!

Oh, my bad! http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage23/14.gif

Actually I don't think we can just offer our opinion that someone is doing a bad thing by cheating while simultaneously supporting them without passing along shame. (errr please forgive that horrific sentence)
What I notice most is that anyone posting about their relationship while still in a marriage is the receipient of multiple posts (lots and lots and lots) telling them that they need to focus on their marriage, that they are harming others, and that what they are doing is just plain BAD. As if the poster really doesn't know any of that already... and as if the previous 6 posts don't say all of that already... and it doesn't at all stop the next moral indignation post.

Marcy, I agree totally with your post !! Well said, not horrifically-worded at all:) .

Like Bears Angel and a ton of other ladies here, I first came to ageless having fallen in love with a ym who had been a friend for a long time previously. I was still legally married, but my husband and I had been separated in ALL ways-but on paper- for about 7 years at that point...barely talked or had any connection. Most of that was due to the years he spent "Cheating" on me (not with another woman, but by lying about secret debt, gambling, cover ups, forging checks, etc.) He had put our very financial viability in jeopardy, and I didn't find out until we were almost met with disaster. I read a while back that the number one reason people fight/become disconnected/finally divorce has its roots in MONEY and financial issues/strain NOT adultery. I was amazed to read that...but the author ( researcher and psychologist) noted that feeling helpless financially and lied to in regards to spending, etc. promotes a bigger sense of loss of control or intimacy in a relationship for some reason.

My point is....THAT WAS ME !!! By the time my friendship with the ym turned a corner toward loving him nearly imperceptably, my marriage was long gone due to the trust (and everything else) lost years before. I stayed for the children and the hope that proved false that things could be worked out. I was in denial.

I did "cross the line" with my ym while still married...but I also told my husband very soon afterward. Everything felt HORRIBLE...I felt like a complete loser, adultress, pervert (because of the ym's young age in comparison), and was trying to sort everything out with people who may have at least one similarity of situation (in love with someone younger). I knew I sucked, I already had enough self condemnation to cover all those bases. What I needed was a gentle, wise, listening ear....not people to condone my mistake, but some who could empathize and then give me sound advice on how to clean up the mess the best way possible.

I came here in 2002 with my story, shaking in my boots....I was slammed by two posters pretty hard. That was enough to send me away with greater self loathing. Rather than glean good advice and sound judgment to make good choices here, I left and floundered on my own. I WISH I had been accepted in gently and coached through here, because the vast amount of wisdom from wonderful women here would have given me incredible stability in my steps from that point on.

I'm not blaming anyone for my leaving the board back then...I'm just concurring with others who say that -especially new members who have gotten themselves into a huge mess- need a little gentleness when being given that straightforward advice without compromise. I LOVED what Desert Spring said on another thread: "confusing honesty with cruelty" is never right. It's all in the "delivery" I truly believe. HOW something is said makes the recipient either receptive or feel judged.

Man o man, I see enough judgment these days around me to not want to add to it, that's for sure.

Ya, gray is the shade most of life falls into...being mindful of that, and of the countless mistakes we have personally made in our own lives BEFORE we post advice here would be profitable, I think.

but my credo on that is that I'm going to do whatever makes me happy as long as it's not illegal or does not hurt anyone. <<<Peachy


I think most everyone can agree that this is a great philosophy and most of us would say we share your sentiments, but.....

As I have said in other posts, life doesnt always work that way....things happen that you do not plan.

What if any of us OW that are dating YM had children (presumably adult or late teen-age children) that were VERY against our realtionships and genuinely "hurt" by our choice? What would others here tell us? would it be OK for us to proceed and risk our childrens happiness for our own? would we tell them that they should persue their own happiness and the child will eventually come around?

what about the parents of the YM that are horrified at the thought of him dating an OW and show extreme discord and unhappiness/hurt with his decision? We tell the YM to not worry about what his parents think, that it is his life and they will just have to deal with it...so, the saying, "Im going to do whatever it takes to be happy as long as it doesnt hurt anyone" certainly wouldnt apply across the board would it? Sometimes you can not help but hurt another in your quest to be happy. Is it OK to hurt a child or a parent but not a spouse? or no? Just wondering here.

Divorce sucks and hurts bad no matter if there is cheating or not. I dont know that I could live my life worrying about anyone and everyone that I might hurt with my choices, because there is always going to be someone out there that has a problem with something, I dont necessarily agree that it is my job to make it all ok for them.

just my .02

~Lissa~

And for those that are wondering...... I dont think cheating is right.

But I do understand that sometimes you can find yourself in a bad situation/marriage and you're not ready to get or cant get out of it.

And I think that those that find themselves in those types of situations really need support.

And because one has made a decision to do something that may not make everyone in their circle/family happy, does this person not deserve support?

Originally posted by miss b
And for those that are wondering...... I dont think cheating is right.

But I do understand that sometimes you can find yourself in a bad situation/marriage and you're not ready to get or cant get out of it.

And I think that those that find themselves in those types of situations really need support.

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

But that support is not to be found in support of a relationship outside of the marriage, but in support of that which 'is' within the confines of the marriage, whatever it's scope.

jmo.

Originally posted by miss b
And because one has made a decision to do something that may not make everyone in their circle/family happy, does this person not deserve support?

Abosutely. family members can be the worst for support. They often see things through their eyes only.

But that is not reason to countenance that which is offensive.

"But I do understand that sometimes you can find yourself in a bad situation/marriage and you're not ready to get or cant get out of it."

This is insufficient to defend that which is not defensible.

The problem many people have is that they cannot see through to the other side.

There are always alternatives. There is always a door open somewhere.

You may be correct in there is always a door open somewhere, but until the person has the strength to open that door, they may find that they need support. Rather it be just someone to talk to or someone to tell them that they're ok on that given day.

Not all people that find themselves in bad marriages are bad.

Not all people that cheat are bad.

You have to admit that we may be seeing things one-sided when a new person post here and they have to be given a for-warning that they my get post that are a little harsh.

Originally posted by miss b
You may be correct in there is always a door open somewhere, but until the person has the strength to open that door, they may find that they need support. Rather it be just someone to talk to or someone to tell them that they're ok on that given day.

Not all people that find themselves in bad marriages are bad.

Not all people that cheat are bad.

You have to admit that we may be seeing things one-sided when a new person post here and they have to be given a for-warning that they my get post that are a little harsh.

Being 'bad' is not the issue.

When we have a meeting of the minds on just what the issue being presented is, we shall have common ground.

Originally posted by miss b
And because one has made a decision to do something that may not make everyone in their circle/family happy, does this person not deserve support?

I feel they do deserve support. IMO It is a mater of supporting the PERSON but not necessarily the ACTION. There is a big difference. I used to tell my children when they were small and would do something I disapproved of, "YOU are NOT bad, but you made a bad CHOICE, lets learn how to make a GOOD choice next time" I dont see the difference here. I can support the person and sympathize with their pain completely without supporting their choice to be unfaithful to their spouse. I see no point in harping on what they have done wrong and telling them that they have no business falling in love with another or being flattered by anothers affections, that is not for me to preach, as I do not know anyones complete story or know every detail of their lives or why it is they have found themselves in this position. That is not to say that I would openly validate or condone an affair either. I would simply choose to stay neutral on the topic and offer what support I could from my own experiences.

I've read some very judgmental comments by people here that were more critical than constructive on the subject of extra-marital affairs. Usually the more abrasive the post, the more I figure the poster has been cheated on and is speaking from personal pain. You can just feel the bitter hurt oozing from their words. Therefore, this issue can't help but be destined to elicit emotionally charged responses, i.e. judgmental reactions. I don't mean from everyone, but the ones who do it have the effect of making the poster feel like a pariah ... and maybe that is their intent.

special K, I think your post really provides a good example of the feelings and situation of some people that come here. I think there's a real tendancy to automatically dislike someone because they have cheated. And as you explain, it's a lot more benefical and useful for us to provide advice - whatever that may be - in a non-judgemental way. It doesn't mean that we have to ignore the fact that they are married, or give them advice on how to cheat or whatever. We can say that it's a bad idea and that they should really deal with the marriage etc.. but in a way so that they don't feel unwelcome here.

Originally posted by OHLis
What if any of us OW that are dating YM had children (presumably adult or late teen-age children) that were VERY against our realtionships and genuinely "hurt" by our choice? What would others here tell us? would it be OK for us to proceed and risk our childrens happiness for our own? would we tell them that they should persue their own happiness and the child will eventually come around?


Okay Lissa, you have described to a tee the situation I was in about a year and a half ago. Seeing as you're new here, I can only assume that you have read past posts or you saw Joe and I on the Oprah show about this same scenario.

And the statement: "I am going to do whatever makes me happy as long as it's not illegal or doesn't hurt anyone" is EXACTLY the statement I made to my daughter when she initially voiced her disapproval about my seeing younger men.

First of all, there is a vast difference between someone disapproving of something you do and being hurt by it.

I have never done anything in her life to HURT my daughter. I'm sure I do lots of things that might not make her overjoyed as has been the turnabout also. Does that make her love me any less or me love her any less? Not at all. I raised her to have an opinion and to be able to voice it. So I was not HURT when she voiced her opinion and I have not HURT her by continuing my relationship.

I told her that I was 51 (which I was at the time) and that I had stayed with her dad for 25 years and had earned the right to be happy for the rest of my life and that meant doing what made me happy subject to the above-stated exceptions. I explained to her that the relationship between her and me was not going to change and that my relationship with Joe was not going to take anything away from the relationship she and I had. I told her that if she cared about me, she would want me to be happy. (I felt certain she would not want me to depend on her and her family to supply all my happiness and have to have me tagging along with everything they did.)

That all transpired in the summer of 2003 and we have all come a long way since then. I did not try to cram Joe or our relationship down my daughter's throat. We have moved slowly and cautiously. But she has come to see that I am happy and that Joe makes me happy. She informed me recently that Joe, himself, was never the issue, just the difference in our ages and she was worried that I would get hurt. She stated that she now has no issues with the relationship and that she sees what she could not see then . . . that age-gap relationships can work.

Having said all that, what would have happened if I had let her sway me into ending the relationship with Joe? I would have missed the time of my life and the love of my life. We make each other happy. Joe has brought an energy and vitality into my life that I am so glad I didn't miss out on. Life is too short not to grasp for every bit of happiness.

If you cheat on your spouse, that also means you are lying to your spouse . . . right? And if you lie to your spouse, who else are you lying to? Or is the lying reserved only to the spouse? And if the cheater KNOWS it's wrong, as some have pointed out in this thread, then is there any guilt involved . . . or have they somehow justified the cheating and believe that it really is not wrong. If there is guilt involved then I think that would be a pretty heavy burden to carry. Why would someone want that on their shoulders? And is it really worth it? Personally, I would not want to win a man who was cheating on his wife with me. After all, I already know he has no qualms about breaking his word and if I were able to take him away from his wife and make him mine, what would keep some other woman from coming along, catching his eye and taking him away from me??? I don't want any part of that game. And, yes, there are many, many for whom it is all just a game.

I agree with some of the postings in that you can't tell someone how to live their lives. But I don't have to support their choices. Life is all about choices, and sometimes we make good choices and sometimes we make bad choices, but when one clearly makes a choice that is viewed overwhelmingly as wrong, don't expect for the majority of the population to pat them on the back and say "Good going."

Just for the record, I was cheated on . . . and I had someone ask me after the divorce if I cheated on him. When I stated that I had not done so, I was told that I had every right to since he cheated on me. What kind of rationale is that? I was not going to lower myself to that level. There's that integrity thing again, huh? You've either got it or ya don't. :rolleyes:

Well, look. Hinestly, it's kinda hard to support anyone in their age gap relationship if it's an extra-marital affair, because for the relationship to GO anywhere, it is going to affect the marriage in some way. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that a person is eventually either going to have to end the affair and work on the marriage, or end the marriage and work on the affair. That's just the reality of the situation.

And helping people figure out which is the right way to go in their situation is the right thing to do. Why don't we concentrate on what's going to happen NEXT and going FORWARD, rather than endlessly rehashing what's already happened. That's water under the bridge.

And I do think helping to guide them towards a place of integrity and not living a double life anymore is a relevent moral standard to use.

But that's different than saying - I don't have any advice for you because you're a worthless cheat and why don't you get the heck off this site because we don't like people like you?

Okay Lissa, you have described to a tee the situation I was in about a year and a half ago. Seeing as you're new here, I can only assume that you have read past posts or you saw Joe and I on the Oprah show about this same scenario.

Actually peachy, I had no idea you were on Oprah, I dont watch it. I also didnt read very far back to know anything about you personally. I responded to your post because of the comment you made about "doing whatever it takes to be happy as long as it doesnt hurt anyone". I assumed many of us have teenage or adult children (myself included) and the scenario I described seemed like it might be a very common one here on ageless, I was in no way trying to single you out, and I had no idea you had this issue yourself. I also mentioned parents of a YM with no one particular person in mind, just as a general assumed common scenario in age gap realtionships, so I dont quite understand why you think I had an agenda with you specifically.... But if I offended you, I apologize.

A good example of why this subject gets so heated when it comes up in "Relationship Support" is that awhile back, I don't recall the posters name or even exactly when this all happened, (it was quite a few months ago), but this gal got many of us drawn into her situation. We embraced her, extending to her genuine care and support, only to have her spoon feed us all the dirty little details of her affair, bit by bit and post by post, which when the whole picture was finally painted, it was not pretty at all. I was upset because I had wasted so much time attempting to help in her time of needing support, and so were many others.

If I recall correctly, she turned out to be quite the ungrateful individual and scoffed at us and bascially told us to all blankety-blank ourselves - she was gonna do what she wanted and didn't give a rat's bum about what we thought, (or who she hurt by her infidelity). Needless to say a lot of people were (very) pissed off and from then on, those that came into Ageless looking for validation and/or "support" towards having affairs was not tolerated much.

I do not condone cheating . All 3 relationships rather it be someone younger than me or older than me have been a result of cheating and i consider myself a good guy too. for me cheating brings up hurt, loss, sadness, and anger. I f you feel the need to try to validate what your doing i will not condone nor will i reply to something like that.

I read a few posts regarding cheating, don't have a whole lot of time to read them all, I'll just state my opinion on the matter, just like to get to the point, not one to have many words......Being a married woman now for 15 years together 16, We have never condoned cheating, I think if a marriage is going through hard times, you need to go back to those promises you made to eachother before God and work at making your marriage better, isn't that what's marriage is about committment? Yes I understand there are special cases such as abuse and infidelity that seperates a man and woman........But let no-one seperate what God has joined together, as long as there is no adultery or abuse in my marriage I will stay committed on doing what it takes to make this marriage work a life time........Now although I don't condone cheating, I won't condemn the cheater.....it makes me sad to see others hurt by it, and I don't like it, but I hope that things can turn around for all those who have been hurt. There's always hope!

Originally posted by OHLis
.... But if I offended you, I apologize.

No offense taken, Lissa . . . I don't offend that easily . . . I took it that you were citing examples where you felt that my credo would not be valid. But the fact remains that you described a situation that I was fully able to provide you with a tried response because I have walked in those shoes.

You are correct that there are many of us who have older children. Are you of the opinion that once we have raised our children, we should then let them dictate the source of all our future happiness? Or that by having a relationship with someone they do not approve of (assuming that person is not abusive to them) is somehow hurting them?

Ahh, but we have digressed greatly from the OP's original question. Sorry, MissB for temporarily hijacking your thread.

Originally posted by Peachy
Are you of the opinion that once we have raised our children, we should then let them dictate the source of all our future happiness? Or that by having a relationship with someone they do not approve of (assuming that person is not abusive to them) is somehow hurting them?

Absolutely not. I dont think anyone has the right to dictate anyones happiness. My point was simply, that you cant always prevent hurting someone, there is always going to be someone somewhere that is going to have a problem with things you are doing or choices you make. I cant define "hurt" for anyone else, so I cant say whether or not a grown child of yours mine or anyone elses has the right to be hurt over our choices. If they feel hurt, they are, I wouldnt dream of telling them they shouldnt be.

We are always quick to tell cheaters to GET OUT of the marriage because they are hurting their spouses but yet a lot of them have children that will be greatly hurt by divorce. Like I said before, divorce hurts regardless of whether or not there is infedelity for everyone involved. Sometimes you just cant help but cause the people you care about pain. No one enjoys it, but sometimes it is impossible to avoid.

I think a wife that is faithful but so unhappy that she is distant from her husband/children is just as hurtful and just as damaging as an affair can be. But we seem to have the opinion that it is OK as long as no one is cheating. She is many times regarded as strong and unselfish for "sticking it out" for the good of the family, or what have you. I dont agree. Sometimes you have to cause some pain to get to the happiness. I cant fathom sitting here saying..."well XYZ would really make me happy and make my life so much better, but I could possibly hurt sally, or bob, or whoever if I do it, so I had better not, I will just continue to be unhappy"

Pain is two faced.

One side is a warning. Saying something needs to be done.

The other is healing. Saying it is getting better.

Pain is not necessarily a bad thing.

First I must say that it wasn’t my intention to hurt anyone or step on anyone’s toes by initiating this thread or in any of my post. I apologize if I have done so.

My reason for starting this thread was:

I was wondering why we’re at a point where a person has to be forewarned that they may receive some replies that could be perceived as harsh when they included the fact that they are married yet involved in an age gap relationship. .

Are we really providing support for those that come to the boards that find themselves in situations that we’re uncomfortable with or are we lashing out at them due to experiences in our own lives.

I personally feel that there is a way to make a person fully aware of the fact that you may not agree with the infidelity aspect of their marriage, yet still treat them with respect and perhaps even provide them with some type of support. We never really know all the facts of one’s situation, nor do we know the mental condition of someone who finds themselves in this situation. I would suspect that those that are dealing with being married and possibly being unfaithful are those that are really searching for support.

Many times a good message can get lost in the way it’s delivered.

I know that there are many caring supportive people on these boards. I personally have received great advice on various subjects from female health issues to just general concerns. That same great support and advice that I’ve received I hope that it never stops as there is always a need.

Thanks

To the person who posted that said they have never seen anyone "bashed" on here for cheating,let me take a direct quote from a post dated 2-23

take your lumps. accept your a liar and a cheater and leave her ......


IMHO,that sounds like "bashing".

You or I do not know ever detail of a persons life.Some things are not always so simple.

Giving advice is one thing,acting as though you know ALL the details of a persons life is another.

Originally posted by miss b

I personally feel that there is a way to make a person fully aware of the fact that you may not agree with the infidelity aspect of their marriage, yet still treat them with respect and perhaps even provide them with some type of support.

Agreed. But support of 'what' is the question.

Let me be very specific.

Support of the marriage aspect?

or

Support of the 'affair'?


"or are we lashing out at them due to experiences in our own lives"

imo, the above quote is actually irrelevant to the focus of the support, though it may be relevant to the tone of the support.

The support given of course would depend on the situation discussed and the individual comfort levels as with all support.

Why cant it just be support of the person. Do they not warrent support?

Why does it have to be just the marriage or the affiar?

lashing out...
I think it can be very revelant to the tone of the support.

I feel they do deserve support. IMO It is a mater of supporting the PERSON but not necessarily the ACTION. There is a big difference.

EXACTLY, OHLis!:)

Ashley...

Thats a prime example of what I'm reffering to when I'm saying that maybe that message could have been delivered with at litte more tact. You're right, we dont know whats going on in every situation.

Just think if that person already had self esteem issues or a mental problem.....I dont think they would be feeling any better after that.

I'm not saying that we have to sugar coat everything, but do we have to be so abrupt ??

Exactly, Exactly ......... Special & Ohlis :) :)

So maybe that's what we need to say more of when we respond to someone. "We're here to help you in some way, but we can't condone what you're doing by having the affair."

That's what I'm talkin about:D

Go Trish!

And thats what I'm talking about to :)

Yeaaa!

In the last year of this website there have been many relationships posted about having bad marriages and age gap relationships.

In every instance, the poster have been given advice to work on their marriage, every perception has been given, every scenario has been projected and re routed, every situation has been condone, re harsh, talked through, supported...etc.

And then there's been nothing...by the cheater...no, thank you, you've given me some other way of looking at my situation, no thank you, I can see your point, no thank you for, I'm going to sleep on what you said, no thank, praise the Lord I see the light.

Wake up...Apart from two woman, I have yet to see a person come on this site who actually wants to work out their marriage and NOT be in a affair...and if I miss it...please name me one.
Awhile back, Josiebell posted her situation and although it was the worst depiction of integrity I've ever seen...she was right about one thing...she was not going to give up this ym (one she never meet, they were in a long distance relationship, but believed everything he was telling her about his sick wife). And I think this is the attitude for most people who cheat. They will do whatever it takes to feel physically good regardless of who they hurt, partners/children/dogs.

My thoughts are that the majority of people who come here to post about their affairs do not want SUPPORT or how they can improve their marriage, you can see it in the way they post...why do I say that because, none of them as of yet has come back to state that they have done anything other than what they intended to do...correct me anyone if I am wrong.

Do we have to know the situation...WHY...the situation is always the same oh, same oh tired story. I don't think people in affairs really change the tune, do they??? There is no excuse to cheat, and when there's a spouse and children involve, it is not JUST about you and your needs. Yes, divorce can hurt...but I believe cheating hurts more and it projects to the partner and children "that they are worthless pieces of extra baggage that they cannot get rid of, (financially or otherwise) therefore, I'm going to do what is best for me because my life is so horrid being with you". What a great message they're sending.

A divorce child will grow up and with counseling can make better choices of a partner and not end up divorce at all...but a child of a cheaters, whether married or single learns that integrity doesn't matter, what makes you feel good does. Again a great principle to teach.

At some point one has to be adult enought to make good choices, and with everyone here...let's face it, we're not counselors but we can only advice based on experience, so therefore, counseloring has always been the preferred method to use and advice. And its the first thing most of the ladies here post about. I will not support cheating...and if that makes me harsh, so be it, no one has to read my post.

I'm sick of the excuses, I'm sick of feeling badly for those partners who are living along having no idea that their so called partners are cheating...it breaks my heart and it saddens my soul and I think I'm done with posting on those threads because frankly, they're not getting it, and secondly...its poisoning me.

Paris

Originally posted by irparis
A divorce child will grow up and with counseling can make better choices of a partner and not end up divorce at all...but a child of a cheaters, whether married or single learns that integrity doesn't matter, what makes you feel good does. Again a great principle to teach.

Right on, Paris. Children of divorce can cope quite well with divorce if it is handled properly. But I can tell you that my daughter (who was grown and married at the time) has absolutely no respect for her cheating father at all. In fact, I think she probably pities the man. And that is certainly his loss. Not hers and not mine.

Trish,the post is in the relationship forum.It's called "In love with an older other woman.What do I do" by someone named Gremv8 (I think thats the name).It's not too far back at all,very easy to find.

In re: to the bashing statement,I don't think you made this one

Secondly...since I've never seen anyone bashed (btw the true dictionary.com definition is "To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly") Never have I seen someone accused of things or threatend...

The quote I used was "bashing" IMO,and as I said who really knows all the details of someones life who we really don't even know.

Originally posted by Ashley20
Trish,the post is in the relationship forum.It's called "In love with an older other woman.What do I do" by someone named Gremv8 (I think thats the name).It's not too far back at all,very easy to find.

In re: to the bashing statement,I don't think you made this one



The quote I used was "bashing" IMO,and as I said who really knows all the details of someones life who we really don't even know.

Wow, that punctuation pattern looks very familiar to me.

Originally posted by irparis
[B]A divorce child will grow up and with counseling can make better choices of a partner and not end up divorce at all...but a child of a cheaters, whether married or single learns that integrity doesn't matter, what makes you feel good does. Again a great principle to teach./B]


Im curious to know who on earth is TELLING their child that mom/dad cheated on them? do people DO that? My husband didnt cheat, but I will say, I would have NEVER told my children if he did. That is information they do NOT need to have. And Im sorry, if you are divorcing, there are two sides that are pained/hurt/ frustrated/diappointed for one reason or another and there is going to be bad feelings that children can interpret poorly...precisely why they shouldnt be told details of your problems, that is between you and your spouse, it is not their burden to bear.

Originally posted by irparis
[B]A divorce child will grow up and with counseling can make better choices of a partner and not end up divorce at all...but a child of a cheaters, whether married or single learns that integrity doesn't matter, what makes you feel good does. Again a great principle to teach./B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont think the sorted details of a divorce is anything that a child should be told. Children of divorce go through enough as is, why tell them something that is not their business. Why make one parent the negative in a situation that already hurts the child. Is this done for brownie points or to make one seem better than the other?? There are just some things that children dont need to know.

Most children of divorce make decisions regarding parents after the divorce. Its when the dad/mom cant see them. Lie to them. Dissapoint them. Thats when children decide that mom/dad isnt that great after all. Thats why its so important for divorced parents to stay involved in their kids lives.

My children to this day cant tell you exactly why their parents divorced, and they are 16 & 23. They can tell you that their parents didnt get along and it was best for everyone that they parted. They have never heard me say a negative thing about their father. He was involved in their lives after the divorce and that was the important thing for them. They still knew that had 2 parents that they could depend on.

Well, Lissa and MissB when your child is 23 years old, you don't HAVE to tell them. They are smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

I think in general people could be a little more diplomatic here when addressing posters who are coming to the boards for support. If you do not agree with someone you do not have to attack them, you do need to be honest and straight forward with them...this I agree with, but to basically all out attack a person for having a viewpoint that may not agree with your own is ethically and tactfully not the right way to handle things regardless of how strongly you may feel about a given issue. We have all made mistakes in life...none of us are perfect in everyway..therefore, how can we stand in judgement of others? Just my opinion...as I was hurt by some of the comments made last year when I was posting...the points being made were good ones..but the way things were said certainly was not what I would call diplomatic or kind by any stretch. :(

I dont think the sorted details of a divorce is anything that a child should be told. Children of divorce go through enough as is, why tell them something that is not their business. Why make one parent the negative in a situation that already hurts the child. Is this done for brownie points or to make one seem better than the other?? There are just some things that children dont need to know.

miss b....could you call my ex husband and tell him what you said above in your post?:(

Kids aren't stupid. When my dad was cheating, we knew. Kids overhear things, see things, they process it, and know what's going on. Cheating hurts kids, period.

When my first husband's girlfriend moved in the week after I moved out, how you going to sugar coat that to the kids? Tell them they made friends really quickly?? The best thing that came out of that was that my older kids are the most monogamous people you'd ever meet.

My first husband was a cheater, probably fall under the sex addict category. I even found him naked in bed with the town, uh, scamp. I went through counselling session after session. I'd been so emotionally beated down by him that I was firmly convinced that there was no way I could support my kids if I left, I wasn't going to leave them with him, and he'd made certain I understood the only way I was going to leave with them would be over my own dead body, his quote. It wasn't till the night I was laying in bed trying to figure out if I had enough Valium in the bottle the Dr had given me for me, and the kids, since I couldn't leave them behind, that something clicked, and I knew I had to get out. My spirit was dead, I had to go before the rest of me followed. I mostly regret the time with my kids, I wasted in numb misery over their father.

Anyone who thinks they're fooling their partner when they cheat is probably wrong. I knew. I knew everytime it happened. I tried to deny it to myself, I let him convince me I was crazy, I didn't want to believe things. A therapist told me I had two choices, I could leave, or I could put up with it and accept that things were like they were. I had three children under five, and no job, I put up with it for a long time.

I found his socks in his car, I smelled him when he came home, I knew.

I had opportunities to cheat while I was married to him, other than than getting hit on raised my self esteem enough to keep me going for a while longer, I made a choice that I wasn't going to sink to his level. When I finally left, he tried to accuse me things, and I was honestly able to tell him that I wasn't as low as he was.

I can't even get into the married, or with someone threads. I won't listen to "I can't help how I feel" Horse hockey. You sure can help what you do about it. (Bruce, where ever you are, thanks for so persistanly telling me how great I was, but not persistantly pressuring me to sleep with you, you probably saved my life at that time though, you sweetie. Thanks for the standing offer though.)

A promise is a promise, a vow is a vow.

Originally posted by Peachy
Well, Lissa and MissB when your child is 23 years old, you don't HAVE to tell them. They are smart enough to figure it out for themselves.


But if the child is 23 peachy, I would surely hope by then their "integrity" as Paris put it, has already been formed and they wouldnt be following the example of the cheating parent. Did your 23 yr old learn that integrity didnt matter and only what feels good does (as paris said) because she was a child of a cheater? Honestly, I wouldnt think she would be that impressionable at that age.

Originally posted by Bella
Kids aren't stupid. When my dad was cheating, we knew. Kids overhear things, see things, they process it, and know what's going on. Cheating hurts kids, period.


Well sure cheating hurts kids, as does ANY kind of discord between a couple with children that causes a divorce or upheaval in the family. I dont think anyone is saying that it doesnt. All I am saying is, such issues should not be discussed with children or left open for children to hear. My husband and I stopped being happy and getting along 5 yrs before we divorced, but we were very careful to be very very discreet in our discussions. It was apparent to the children that everything wasnt sunshine and roses, there was no hiding that, but as far as the particulars went, they had NO idea WHY and were quite surprised when we told them we were splitting up. As a result, they have no negative view of their father and respect and admire him greatly, which they SHOULD IMO. How he treated me and his lack of ability to be a good partner has nothing at all to do with his ability to be a good father. Their view of him should not be tainted by private matters between him and I.

>>My first husband was a cheater. The best thing that came out of that was that my older kids are the most monogamous people you'd ever meet. <<<<

Well then I guess they grew up with integrity afterall, unlike Paris suggested.

Originally posted by kathyw
Inone of us are perfect in everyway..therefore, how can we stand in judgement of others? Just my opinion...as I was hurt by some of the comments made last year when I was posting...the points being made were good ones..but the way things were said certainly was not what I would call diplomatic or kind by any stretch. :(


Unfortunately there are always going to be people that feel it is their right to judge. I find it unsettling that some people (not just specifically here on ageless, but in life in general as well) can not put their personal pain and opinions aside and simply help for the sake of helping instead of preaching and demeaning. Its all in the delivery. You can say.."I dont agree with the choices you have made" without being belittling and mean-spirited. When someone comes here and is obviously in termoil and seeking help (such as the poster justme was) I dont see what behaving that way does for anyone. I have seen many posters here handle themselves with great kindness and tact even though they disapprove of the other posters actions, and for that I commend them...but some others....seem to have agenda all their own.

Originally posted by OHLis
But if the child is 23 peachy, I would surely hope by then their "integrity" as Paris put it, has already been formed and they wouldnt be following the example of the cheating parent. Did your 23 yr old learn that integrity didnt matter and only what feels good does (as paris said) because she was a child of a cheater? Honestly, I wouldnt think she would be that impressionable at that age.

I do believe that Paris was talking about young children. I was pointing out how older children perceive the cheater.

Lissa, hon, I don't think you're ever going to get it, so I'm through posting on this thread. http://www.geocities.com/voodoo_sprout/horse.gif

Originally posted by Peachy
I do believe that Paris was talking about young children. I was pointing out how older children perceive the cheater.

Lissa, hon, I don't think you're ever going to get it, so I'm through posting on this thread. http://www.geocities.com/voodoo_sprout/horse.gif

I was talking about young children as well Peachy. No one mentioned adult children. My response was to Paris' comment about kids of cheaters GROWING UP thinking integrity didnt matter. I said I didnt think children should be told such things...ie.."your father cheated on me" and your response was they didnt have to be told to know about it if they were 23. Since neither Paris or I were referring to adult children, I was only pointing out to you that surely by age 23 they were past the impressionable stage, and my comment to Paris about not telling kids things like that was not reffering to adult kids. So, I dont know what exactly I am "not getting". But fair enough if you dont want to post about it any longer, I can respect that. :)

When dealing with older children(teens in my case) yes they may know things but I still dont think they should be told the details of a divorce. We were never the type of couple to air our dirty laundry in front of the kids when things were going good, so when things were going bad we didnt change that. I never spoke ill of him and he never spoke ill of me no matter what we may have actually thought about each other, and believe me we thought some pretty nasty things about each other.

Sometimes people take their own experiences and let it cloud their judgement on every similar situation. Each situation is different and people are different. I know some will say cheating is cheating, but still its not my job to judge them. And I cant let my past experiences give me an excuse to treat them any differently than I would anyone else.

Originally posted by OHLis
Unfortunately there are always going to be people that feel it is their right to judge. I find it unsettling that some people (not just specifically here on ageless, but in life in general as well) can not put their personal pain and opinions aside and simply help for the sake of helping instead of preaching and demeaning. Its all in the delivery. You can say.."I dont agree with the choices you have made" without being belittling and mean-spirited. When someone comes here and is obviously in termoil and seeking help (such as the poster justme was) I dont see what behaving that way does for anyone. I have seen many posters here handle themselves with great kindness and tact even though they disapprove of the other posters actions, and for that I commend them...but some others....seem to have agenda all their own.

I couldn't agree with you more OHLis! :)

Originally posted by miss b
Sometimes people take their own experiences and let it cloud their judgement on every similar situation. Each situation is different and people are different. I know some will say cheating is cheating, but still its not my job to judge them. And I cant let my past experiences give me an excuse to treat them any differently than I would anyone else.

I agree...goes back to "how can we stand in judgement of someone else unless we are perfect ourselves?"

And to clarify from above to another poster... I didn't say you had to "watch" every word you say when responding to someone here...I said that saying things in a tactful and diplomatic way is just common curteousy..I have seen (and have been on the receiving side) of some pretty mean comments here in the past, so much that I left for awhile..and as far as I'm concerned ...I think people should handle themselves a little more responsibly when speaking and responding, and with alot less "judgement".

You have no idea who you are dealing with when they post here..or where they are coming from or what the other side of the situation may be ..so why immediatley jump to the conclusion that you do know, get on a podium and begin to preach..this part never made sense to me...? I understand "tough love" but can't we have that with out being rude and cruel? :confused: (p.s. sorry..no time to check spelling)

Excuse me, miss b, but I'm going to "hijack" your thread for a moment.

I agree, KathyW, a little courtesy goes a long way.

We have got attackers here - to me, it feels like they read every post just waiting for a word or a sentence or an idea that they disagree with, and then they come swooping down. The way I deal with them is I just ignore them. Which is NOT to say I don't sometimes type up scathing counter-attacks, because I DO (!!!) but them I delete it and proceed to ignore them. There are people here whose posts I won't even read because I find their writing-style so offensive. I dare say, they consider attacking someone as "discussion." I would go one step further and say that some of them seem to think that disagreeing is a sign of intelligence. (They're wrong.)

There are others here that just enjoy arguing. As the old expression goes, if someone says black, they will say white. Sometimes, I enjoy their contrariness and sometimes they even make me think.

There are others that obviously do not put a lot of thought into their posts. They just post the first thing that comes to their mind, and it's obvious.

BUT THEN there are those that post with forethought. There are those that post with the hope of helping. There are those that post to share the benefit of their experiences. We have some truly gifted writers here that can move us to laughter or tears or a roller-coaster ride of multiple emotions. We also have some incredibly intelligent, well-read, knowledgable people here that spend considerable time and effort providing us with facts, quotes, etc.

Here is something that they say at 12-Step-Meetings: "Take what you need and leave the rest." I come here looking for positive reinforcement, good company, good friends, good writing, a good laugh, or a touching moment. I often learn something here. I hope to give the same thing back. If that's what you're looking for, it's here. Take what you want and ignore the rest.

Originally posted by Chatterbox
Excuse me, miss b, but I'm going to "hijack" your thread for a moment.

I agree, KathyW, a little courtesy goes a long way.

Here is something that they say at 12-Step-Meetings: "Take what you need and leave the rest." I come here looking for positive reinforcement, good company, good friends, good writing, a good laugh, or a touching moment. I often learn something here. I hope to give the same thing back. If that's what you're looking for, it's here. Take what you want and ignore the rest.

Thank you CB..your post really touched me and I totally agree with everything you said..especially this last paragraph...not much more to say beyond that...and yes, I'm sorry about the hijack too miss b..just had to get my feelings down in writing. Carry on!
:D

Maybe we're so desensitize to this like everything esle in this world....
I dont think the sorted details of a divorce is anything that a child should be told.

You would have to be very naive or really do believe that when two people fight...a child, even one that you might've been send to bed hours ago, will not eventually learn why their mom/dad are fighting...I knew every time my parents fought and what about, didn't most of us.

When the majority of people go through divorce, all bets are off. They will say and do whatever it takes to win, believe me a child of any age does learn eventually why their parents divorce. If its because of infidelity, whether that child is young or a adult, it changes their outlook on life, it changes how they view the parent, it destroys a small part of their soul. Don't think that just because the child is an adult, it does not affect them, it affects them even more because they understand more. They understand being devalued and real life.

I had a friend who's father left their mother for another when she was 8 years old. Her mother never told her why he left, but eventually she figured it out, when she learned math, by counting the years her father has been with B...she understood that her father left her mother for B. And you should've seen the bodies of b/fs she left behind because of that pain. The problem with people who have affairs and they have children is that alot of times, the father takes a new wife/g/f and hardly sees the children, my g/f felt that abandonment for years. She 45 years old now and still feels abandoned, my cousin is 41 to this day has never forgiven her father...she was 8 when her father left her.

Children young or adult see their parents through different eyes. We spend most of our life trying to create an environment where children will always feel safe, loved and special to their parents, and then one parent decides...oh dang, I'm miserable...should they stay in a miserable marriage, absolutely not, and no one is saying to get a divorce, or that getting a divorce is easy...it is not...but I think it was Sage who said, that once she realize the marriage was over, she took time to prepare to leave her marriage and prepare you should. That would be the responsible, accountable adult thing to do, not stick a knife into your kids already shattered environment and leave them with a legacy of raw pain such as an affair will bring.

Unfortunately there are always going to be people that feel it is their right to judge.

Let me tell you about judgement...we are given the right to make righteous judgment of behaviours not of our brothers and sisters in this realm...which is to mean, that we are all our brothers/sisters keeper. The fact that we don't know each other personally, matters not, because I believe that...one, someday I will be judged on whether in this life I was a activist or pacifist of my journey and two, one of yous will point a finger at me and ask me, why did you not tell me.

For all accounts and purposes, we will always tell someone who is considering an affair, whether age gap or not, to fix the relationship, go to counseling and stay away from the other person. Do we want these partners to have joy and love in their hearts, of cause, but we also know the pain the an embittered partner will have when there's another involve, for some, yes it is as easy as dividing up the loot, putting on a smile for the kids and trying to keep the volcano from exploding with disappointing dreams and hurt emotions. Then there are others whose pain is so great, well, they will just kill you or even worst, kill your kids...we seem to be having alot of that going around. you dont' know how your mate will react, why give him/her something to react to.

As I said, no one who comes here, comes to work on their marriage, (they do have sites for those who want to cheat on their spouses, don't they) they want validation for their affairs and are as smug and superior as if they had invented ketchup...and if some do post harshly...excuse me, but their pain is proably still real, still raw, I dont' see why anyone of us would dare to tell someone who has been cheated on to stop what they're feeling and be tactful, give me a break and the cheater also has a responsibility to recognize that someone else might be/is experiencing a raw pain of being cheated on and she can't emphatize, than the cheater is not really here for you or me is she, again it goes back to being selfish. if they want tactfulness, go to a counselor...but on this website, there's only humanity still searching for peace and charity to their own souls.
All there is IS real life.

Paris

I've said it before, I'll repeat it here. We all post, throwing ourselves open, hoping that we get support or a positive response, praying that we don't get slammed, with no way of knowing which one it will be. Yeah, I wish there was less negative responses posted, but it ain't my universe.

I don't know, miss b, if there is an anti-adultery feeling here, but I know that adultery is a painful subject for those that have been cheated on, and if a post touched that pain, there will be some lashing out.

I've thought for days about your questioning if adulterers don't deserve sympathy for their pain. I'm sure they do, but it's like saying that the person who shoots someone deserves sympathy:
they very well might, but usually, the sympathy goes to their victim.

Originally posted by Chatterbox
I've thought for days about your questioning if adulterers don't deserve sympathy for their pain. I'm sure they do, but it's like saying that the person who shoots someone deserves sympathy:
they very well might, but usually, the sympathy goes to their victim.

My thinking is that when I urge a person here that is cheating to step back, (from the affair),, evaluate what is happening in the marriage and fix that, (whether it be mending the marriage or legally breaking the union), that is caring about them.
Cheating comes with a heavy cloud of lies, deceit, guilt and pain. I am trying to get that person to face the crummy stuff, get rid of it, (or fix it), so they can forge ahead and have all that happiness, (guilt-free), they desire so badly.

Ya know, if I didn't care, then my advice would be to just "go for it, do what feels good!"
But being that a person comes here looking for support, that is what I give. I can't always tell them what they, (think), they want to hear, but what I do offer is support in the most honest and sensible way I can.
If they don't want "honest" and "sensible", then that is on them.

Originally posted by Sage
My thinking is that when I urge a person here that is cheating to step back, (from the affair),, evaluate what is happening in the marriage and fix that, (whether it be mending the marriage or legally breaking the union), that is caring about them.
Cheating comes with a heavy cloud of lies, deceit, guilt and pain. I am trying to get that person to face the crummy stuff, get rid of it, (or fix it), so they can forge ahead and have all that happiness, (guilt-free), they desire so badly.


FTR Sage, from what I have seen in my short time here, I personally think you are one of the best posters when it comes to handling the cheating topic without being preachy and belittling. I think that is all MissB and others like myself are saying, you can show these people support and be kind without approving of their choices. IMO you do that very well.