Other friends...

Me and my P just split up.

A clean break, we're still friends, but a break none the less. The reasons however, still have me at a loss.

Basically, she couldn't handle the fact that one of my ex girlfriends was still a very close friend of mine. And no matter what I did to assure my OW that there was nothing beyond platonic feelings, she still was very uncomfortable, and in the end, she decided that it was something that she couldn't get over. She believed that my ex still had feelings for me, and that I just liked the attention that I got from her. But no matter how much I tried to allay her fears, she just couldn't shake it.

It frustrates me to no end that the idea of me having a strong relationship with an ex girlfriend was the mitigating factor in the breakup. My ex is probably my best friend, and that's just the way things are, I can't just drop that. To do so would be against my very nature.

Now am I being naive? Am I not understanding her point ov view clearly enough? Is this, in the end, my own fault?

Ugh, I can totally relate to where you are coming from. I am still good friends with my ex. We were a TERRIBLE couple, but we managed to salvage our friendship, and I wouldn't want to give it up for my boyfriend. And, like your girlfriend, he doesn't like the friendship much. I find myself walking a fine line somewhere in between, not wanting to hurt him, and staying true to myself.

I dunno what to say, except you have to do what you have to do (how cliche is that!?). I really don't know what I'd do if I had to choose one or the other. Knowing me, I'd probably sacrifice the friendship, and then resent my boyfriend. So, I don't think you've done anything wrong. It sounds like she understood that there was nothing to be jealous about, but still couldn't get past it.

Maybe she'll come around and decide to give it a try again once she's had some time on her own?

Wow. What a horrible situation Arctic. :( I'm so sorry that it had to end that way. I don't really see either of you at "fault", but rather at a crossroads. Did she actually ask you to choose between the two of them? If you had chosen her over your friendship, would you have resented that?

Hi Artic

I have an x-boyfriend that I am very very close to as well......We were together for many years and we were the best of friends too.....

He got married about 4 years ago......And I haven't really seen him since.....Wasn't there for the wedding......His wife doesn't want me to be in his life.....He can't do any work for me (Graphic Designer).....Neither can he see me or call me.......

He does call me sometimes in secret.....but he has decided that his marriage and the way his wife feels (I guess she is a little insecure).....Is more important to him than his friendship with me......

Im not saying I agree with this situation....Of course, I would love to have him back into my life and I miss him very much.......However, there is nothing I can do and I have to respect his decision, because he doesn't want to upset his wife.......

I guess I just told you this story to make you see another angle perhaps......

So, there, I have lost one of the best Designers I have ever encountered.....Plus a very very close friend......All at the same time....But Im happy that he is happy......And if this is what it takes for his wife to be happy as well.......Then so be it......:)

Hard one for me to be objective about as my boyfriend just recently had 'cyber sex' with someone he swore was just an old friend from another online arena he used to be part of. When I was around them in our little game we play I would see it, I would feel it, I would protest it!! We almost broke up over it and you know what ? In the end I was right. There was more there.

Women have good intuition. Think really long and hard before you let her go, she may be seeing something you dont and you know what? It may not be anything to do with you but your ex gf could be putting out the vibe.

Thats what this other woman did to me!! She would make knowing comments to me such as "Craig really misses Florida a lot" (she lives in Florida). And "Hes such a little brat, dont worry, Ill keep him in line for you". And things like that. Trying to be cozy with me yet letting me know she 'knew him so well".

Please look closely and then decide what is really going on.

Not saying you or your ex gf are guilty though, just to really examine this before writing off your current love.

Im still hurting from this and ok it was just cyber sex but I am having some after effects I wont go into here, but it put a dent in my trust to say the least.

Wow. What a horrible situation Arctic. :( I'm so sorry that it had to end that way. I don't really see either of you at "fault", but rather at a crossroads. Did she actually ask you to choose between the two of them? If you had chosen her over your friendship, would you have resented that?

I believe that platonic friendship between males and females are entirely possible...but if your partner had some concern with your relationship between you and your ex, then I suspect that you were probably sharing too much time with your ex, too much intimacy compared with what was deemed appropriate by your partner.

I'm curious as to why you didn't compromise and wonder as whiterose does: would you have resented choosing to work on your romantic relationship instead of walking away from it to maintain ties with your ex?

Its that same old thinking that men and women can't be friends unless she's old, fat, unattractive with acne.

She couldn't get over it, that's too bad...all her insecurity did was lose her a good person who loved her. Maybe she just had other trust issues that she hadn't deal with. I would give her some time and call her again. What Heather says also could be true, sometimes woman get catty and like the power they give in knowing a guy more than the g/f.

I work too hard at having the friends I have for junior tell me to dump them because he's having issues. But then again I don't go out with guys who have such lack of self esteem to be ask this. I'm also not used to not being trusted...I feel that my word is my bond and if you can't trust that what's the point of having a relationship with me.

I'm sorry she couldn't trust the self within the man who loved her...or she couldn't trust the self within her that was good with the man.

Paris

We've had this debate on here a kazillion times, but what it comes down to is that the right person for YOU, given who you are and the relationships that you have, will be able to deal with the role of this other person in your life. Just like the right person for some other people would never maintain a relationship with their ex.
We're all different. But for you, this relationship is important and being able to keep it in your life is a deal-breaker.

So I'm sorry and I'm sure it hurts that this didn't work out. But there isn't any right or wrong answer, there's just your answer (and her answer) and they didn't turn out to be the same....

I don't think we should have to give up any friend for a romantic relationship. If we do, that's a pretty big sacrifice to make and speaks to the significant other's insecurity, and our willingness to support that insecurity if we give in to it. Maybe she'll get to the point where she can work around it.

I have a friend who was my b/f over 30 years ago. We maintain contact because we genuinely like each other. His wife is not my biggest fan, but she tolerates my once a year phone call.

I used to be good friends with an ex of mine. We weren't the best of friends, but we talked sometimes. My boyfriend now hated that we talked so much that he actually did make me chose. While I didn't feel it was right, I knew that it wasn't worth losing him over. The ex said that he thought I was "better than that" and all this stuff, but I think really it comes down to what is more important in your life. He was a good friend and I sometimes wonder what would have happen if I just let things go as they were. I know I had no feelings for him but I wonder if something would have happened down the road that would have ended our friendship anyway.

I'm sorry to hear that you two broke up. I hope she comes around soon.

Sorry to hear this news Arctic. Do you think that this is the end, or would you expect that the relationship is salvagable if one of you changed you mind? ANd do you really think she is telling th truth about her reasons for ending the relationship, or was she just making up an excuse?

I find your situation very difficult to comment on without really knowing the truth myself, or (assumming her story is correct) seeing the dynamic between the three of you. I agree with the comment that your recent ex may be irrationally insecure....yep, thats possible but I don't know her so it would be unfair to accuse her of that.

On the other hand, I also observe here time and time again cases where women bring up vague insecurities regarding their spouses and they normally are proven right....so I agree that women are mostly intuitive and if they are freaking over something going on in the relationship, its worth exploring it.

My opinion is that on the surface of things, theres nothing wrong with being close to your ex. But if your ex is playing subtle games which affect your relationship or your partner; if she is using your closeness to subversively harm your new relationship in any way, and therefore messing with your partner's life, then I feel that your partner is is entitled to want to rid her life of such a negative influence, and so are you. The people we have close to us, and how they affect or relationship DO count in my opinion, as agegap relationships are already challenging.

The problem is that this kind of subtle manipulation and game playing may not be something you pick up on...in fact a lot of guys are completely blind to this kind of behaviour, where other women see right through it.

Not saying this is happening either, but it is one possibility.

Just an idea...Do you have a sister or some other female who is close to you (who you trust, of course) who could give you an assessment of the dynamic beteen your ex & your partner?

Brilliant post Bella D. As usual, there are things to be considered that are beyond what's on the surface. This topic reminded me of a former friend of mine with whom I was very, very close. He got married, and his wife could not handle our friendship, so he let it go. I was really quite hurt at the time. His marriage only lasted a couple of years. Later, he tried to re-establish our friendship, but it was really unsalvagable. So in the end, he lost both of us.

Just to clear a few things up:

1 - My OW never asked me to choose between her and my friend. She knew that would have been a bad thing. No one should ask that, and asking me to sacrifice a relationship or friendship is not something that someone who cares about me would or should ask.

2 - My OW often brought up the idea that my ex still had feelings for me. And while I didn't believe that, my response was always the same: "Even if she does, that's her problem. I'm with you now, not her." I would never care who else is supposedly in love with me, not when I was with someone. Perhaps I'm naive, and I can't see some sort of manipulation that is coming from my ex, I don't know. But whenever my OW brought this up, it felt like she didn't trust me. And that stung, ever so slightly, every time.

3 - One thing my OW kept saying was that I didn't understand her feelings on the the whole ex as a friend thing. I really tried, and I tried to say that it was no problem, but for her it always was, and I guess, I don't understand why it always was.

Artic......


I get the feeling from you that you are determined to stick to your guns.....Its amost as if.....You have made your mind up about this and there is no other way.....But there IS another way, there are many.....How does your best friend feel about you guys splitting up over your friendship with her....Has she offered to talk to your OW about this....If she is your 'best' friend, wouldn't she want the best for you??......Wouldn't she want you guys to work it out??

Also.....I have noticed that men have a few problems 'noticing' the 'ways' of women......We women can pick it up instantly....Of Course, because we are women.....:)

I am thinking that if the more recent ex gf's intuition is correct, Artic's best friend would be superficially consoling, but would in no way try to help sort it out by talking to her about it. Though I agree...its the sort of thing that a best friend would possibly do in the interest of clearing up a misunderstanding.

Personally, Arctic, I beleive it would be very stressful for your partner dealing with you having a `best friend' who obviously fancies you, and is also an ex lover. This puts your ex not in friendship category at all, but in the `suitor' category. This is whole different ball-game and not many people like their serious partner to keep their former suitors around as `best friends' once the realtionship gets serious.

The `beneath the surface' dynamics must be dreadful for the girl who fancies you, and it immediately sets up a sense of competition between your best friends and your partner. Thats always a difficult situation, and not nice for the participants.

Perhaps the problem for your partner was not so much fearing you getting back with your ex, but simply not wishing to live with that contant sense of always competing for you against other suitors. And if she perceives you as naive, she has nowhere to go with this....you keep denying the true nature of your realtionship with your ex, and she keeps copping the brunt of your ex's games. Theres not many options for her, if you can't at least begin an honest dialog about it.

Now if your ex was truly a friend, this wouldn't be a problem. But if she fancies you....well I can see your partner's point of view. Personally.

I reread your post and I have to say, I see the problem more now than when I first read it.

To quote you "A strong friendship with an ex" and "My best friend and that is just how it is".

Those two statements right there would frustrate me if I were your partner.

Why? I want to be your best friend (if i was with you lol) I want to be the one your strong with. I want to be the ONE.

Yes, I understand that some of you want strong friendships with your ex's, I have a somewhat strong friendship with my ex husband despite his nastiness.
But never, not ever, would I call him my best friend over Craig, my current boyfriend and never would I ever let him pose a threat to a relationship I truly cared about.

I dont think the dynamics you talk about are fair to any potential love interest.

Now if you said in your post "My current love and I have a very strong relationship, she is MY BEST FRIEND, I dont understand why she is threatened yadda yadda, " I think Id have taken it differently but from what I read the ex gf is just too damned important to you and that would bother me too.

Sorry :/ Just being honest with how I see this, and its an opinion and you know what they say about those :P

Hope Arctic won't mind me posting to this.

Hi. I'm the best friend/ex-girlfriend. I was also here several months ago when Arctic and P first got together, trying to understand the dynamics of agegap relationships.

I just want to clear up a few things so that you can all understand the situation a bit better.

Firstly, P is wrong to think that I still have feelings that way toward Arctic. Arctic is my best friend, but as far as romance, I am barking up a different tree. Arctic and I are only friends. And there is no possibility of it becoming more once again either.

Secondly, I was in no way trying to intrude or destroy their relationship. Actually, I rarely saw her, and Arctic never chose to spend time with me at the expense of time spent with her. Arctic and I do spend time together, but it was at times when she couldn't be there due to work schedules or other engagements.

I was not playing underhanded tricks to try and break them up. I actually quite liked P when I finally spent a bit of time getting to know her. She's a nice person.

And finally, it did upset me quite a bit when I discovered that they basically broke up because of me. I wish that it didn't happen. It wasn't what I wanted to have happen at all. But I have to recognize that it is her issue, not mine.

The only threat I posed to their relationship was in her mind.

This is about Arctic though, not me. I just wanted to present my side. Back to regularly scheduled postings...

Hi there.....I DO remember your posts way back, wondering or at least trying to understand why a YM would have an attraction to an older woman. As I recall, you got a pretty decent array of answers too! I recall your questions as being intelligent and thoughtful.

One thing that screamed out at me when I read your post was that you and Artic spent time together away from his girlfriend's company "due to work schedules and other engagements." I have to be honest with you.....if I were his g/f, I would think that the minute I wasn't around, he was looking for you. While you're not his sleeping partner, there is another whole set of implications there when you each say the other is your "best friend." Your best friend is the person you seek out for company, solace, companionship and kinship, advice, etc. That person ideally is your significant other.

I can see why she had an issue with you now that I think about it further and read your post. I wouldn't have a problem with a b/f having a female as a friend, but I guess I would have a problem with a man who called an EX g/f his best friend. Even though you imply that you would never be romantically involved again, the fact remains that you already have been, and that's a little too close to home if you're a woman having a sexual relationship with a man who continues to seek emotional closeness with an ex sexual partner.

Even though you imply that you would never be romantically involved again, the fact remains that you already have been, and that's a little too close to home if you're a woman having a sexual relationship with a man who continues to seek emotional closeness with an ex sexual partner.

I think thats an important point you brought up Katmeup....many people feel that theres a lot more to defining a romantic partnership than just sex...in fact a bigger portion of the bond is the emotional intimacy you share. When one partner is equally or even MORE emotionally intimate with a former lover, then it naturally brings up a problem of competing interests. It also blurs the boundaries of the romantic relationship in confusing way, because although the relationship is sexually monogamous, there is a strong emotional intimacy being divided between two women, with two different agendas, and competing needs.

Also, yes I remember now arctic's best friend expressing disapproval towards artic's relationship here at ageless (though politely and intelligently). Perhaps this attitude has been communicated to artic's partner somehow through certain behaviours?

Hi Justafriend,

I do remember you and your long thread :>

I kinda stand by my former advice. Not everyone would be threatened by it, and it sounds like the right woman for Arctic, is someone who won't be. There's no doubt that reality probably reduces his pool of available significant others, but that's the choice that the two of you make when you decide to maintain this strong friendship. Everything is a trade-off, in one way or another. Hopefully, you get enough from each other to make it worthwhile. (And don't think this may not come up as an issue with a significant other on your side down the line. It may).

It sounds like the two of you did make every attempt to reassure her of the nature of your friendship. And she just didn't want to live with it. It wasn't the kind of relationship that she wanted. Everybody is allowed to say what kinds of things are deal-breakers for them. This was hers. It doesn't mean either party is right or wrong. It means they were incompatible on this issue.

Just to add one last thing.... and it's a doozy....

I never said to anyone, including P herself, that I loved her.

Based on a lot of the responses, many are making a pretty big assumption about how emotionally involved we were. I wanted to get to that point with her, but I don't think it was something I would come to overnight. I was attracted to her.. I am attracted to her. I like her, and I like spending time with her. But due to the ways I've acted in the past, I've tried to take my time in this relationship. And before everyone jumps on my about how that's all well and good for me, and that I can't know how she's feeling, well, you're right. These were all things that me and P discussed at great length. Niether of us was blind going into this. Unfortunately, sometimes love is blind. I would have welcomed the opportunity to fall in love with her, but, as naive as it may sound, I needed time. It might seem silly, and maybe a little dumb, but that's what I needed. I wanted the chance to Have P grow into my best friend. But I can't just turn it on.

Now, things are uncertain at best.

I'm going to be having coffee with P tomorrow. Maybe we can make better sense of everything...

So........

Now you are saying that you havent expressed your love for her......Because you 'don't' love her yet......Not to mention, she has to wait for her 'best friend' status......No wonder shes walked out.......

It doesn't seem like you both have really broken up anyway......I think you are both just working through things.......I hope it works out for the both of you......

You don't just fall in love with someone and they become your best friend immediately though, do you?

I know that in the 4 months before I met my g/f again in real life I tried to hold off saying that I loved her, because I wanted to make sure that when I did, that I was 100% certain that it was real.

I wouldn't have called us 'best friends' immediately after we very first met either. That developed over time, although pretty quickly because we just clicked together and understood each other really well.

No Rob you wouldnt but its just hard as a woman (dont know about men) to have someone else as your sig.others best friend when that someone else is female.

My 'vibe' on this so to speak is that the other woman (who has now posted) was in some ways expressing disapproval, she may not have even realized she was doing this but this kind of thing can and does undermine relationships.

Im not judging anyone just putting out there "P's" side of all this as I have been there done that and in my case my intuitions were correct. Not saying P's are saying they very well could be.

I wouldnt want to touch this with a ten foot pole and I sure as hell wouldnt :)
I would basically take note of the situation with the best friend and say no thanks.
I may be missing out on the best guy in the world but from how this has been presented Id have to say run run as fast as you can P.

Thats just me, I know a lot of people disagree, I just wouldnt give this situation a chance so understand P a lot.

I prolly would have bailed too if I were P, going through all that stress regarding the best friend /ex-lover as well as dealing with the lack of reciprocated love in the relationship. But thats based on my experiences. Perhaps P has had similar experiences, so her expectations are that some sort of reciprocated love from Arctic should have occurred by now if they were meant to be a couple?

In my experiences, those first few `honeymoon' months after meeting a new partner are so electric, almost magical.......I think they're a time where bonds solidify between a couple (however unrealisitically), you asssign almost magical properties to your lover, and you put each other on pedastools (plenty of time to knock them down later:)

I would be thinking if my lover couldn't find anything to love about me during the crazy, magical honeymoon phase of the relationship, then its not going to get better as the more mundane, challenging phases of the relationship set in....the first arguments, the bad hair days, the challenges in communication, dealing with stressors and finances etc.

But thats just me.....

PS. This situation sounds like a good argument for dating someone you don't love until you've made up your mind if you want to go further, rather than hopping into a relationship with that person...less hurt feelings that way.

Its a difficult situation, Arctic...

I have to admit, it would not bother me if my partner had a best friend or several best friends...I know he had a life before me and if I become his best friend in the process then I would consider myself lucky to be so.

I have alot of best friends including ym, the only difference being is that I don't share personal info with outside best friends as I would with my partner. I recognize that my partner may not like it. But I would have a problem if my partner needed me to be his sole best friend...Anyone I share experiences with, is my best friend...does he become my only best friend because I sleep with him...hell no. No more than he's my soul mate. But he would be the special person in that, he shares my heart and as no other. And if i'm going to worry about him having a friendship with some one he's had a sexual relationship before me, good grief, I'm going to drive myself insane as I'm sure Arctics has had many.

considering that you both just started this relationship, sorry she's gotta earn her "best friend" wings. It takes strength, maturity and character to start a relationship with a ow and to already be given rules to live by for this relationship to go forward. I'm with you Arctic...if I could not be trusted, then you have no place in my life...trust should not be only about when things are going good and we're all doing the hoochie dance, but when things are just so-so that you're trying to work things through and still maintain your individuality.

I'm glad you're both going to met and talk it over. I hope you both come to some compromise that doesn't make you have to choose...because although she's not asking you to choose, oh I'm sure she hopes you do and if you feel you need to take your time in making this an exceptional relationship...you take all the time you need. If she doesn't understand how a relationship gets better with time, than she's just not that into you.

Paris

Paris I think your ignoring that the "best friend" has already expressed disapproval of this woman in past posts, not to say your wrong, your right in a lot of ways, but it seems to me there is more going on here than we can see without being in the situation.

I feel for P and wish her well. I just feel there is a lot of undercurrent with the 'best friend" that is bothering her.

Let me know what happens Arctic, I wish you well!! I know your not wrong its just my opinions. I dont think you should choose on demand, I think you should decide what is important to you in life and go with that.

Paris I think your ignoring that the "best friend" has already expressed disapproval of this woman in past posts, not to say your wrong, your right in a lot of ways, but it seems to me there is more going on here than we can see without being in the situation.


Huh? When did she express disapproval? From what i remember, she came here saying that she didn't understand the relationship but in order to be a good friend she wanted to find out more about why ym might want to have a relationship with ow. I don't remember her saying she felt the relationship was wrong, just that she personally didn't understand it and wanted to get beyond that for the sake of her friend.

I interpreted it as disapproval too, Heatherlyn...........though expressed very, very carefully & intelligently (obviously because this is an OW/YM relationship forum and Arctic would see her words).

I remember that curious post as well.

But what I dont get is why a guy that is dating someone else would think its ok to have a very best friend that he had previously dated before. Specially one that so involved in his life that she has to come here to understand his new relationship.

My y/m has female friends that call and they chat every blue moon. When most of the women find out that he's in a serious relationship they communicate even less. All but one who has known him for years and we've visited several times. But non of these women are ex's, and certainly not his best friend.

I have male friends that I speak with, its mostly catch up calls. How are ya, how are the kids, etc. They are not my best friends and I didnt date them.

Why do you feel that this woman should be comfortable with this situation?
Sounds to me like your relationship was just starting to bloom and instead of filling it with sunshine, you casted a cloud on it by involving a past g/f as a best friend.

This is just my 2 cents ;)

But what I dont get is why a guy that is dating someone else would think its ok to have a very best friend that he had previously dated before. Specially one that so involved in his life that she has to come here to understand his new relationship.


It would occur to me, and I realize I may be a little biased, that we don't always choose our friends. The relationship I had with Justafriend was brief, after being friends for some time. You can call our trist a... failed experiment. And I'd also think that a friend that tries to better understand the relationship that I in, is one that WANTS to understand, as opposed to the friend that just says: "It's wrong!".

And thanks, Inparis, for bringing up the idea of multiple "best friends". That's exactly how I see things. I have about 5 or six best friends, and I want P to be one of them. Beyond those 6, I only know people. Aquaintances, and "people I know".

Paris I think your ignoring that the "best friend" has already expressed disapproval of this woman in past posts, not to say your wrong, your right in a lot of ways, but it seems to me there is more going on here than we can see without being in the situation.

And why are we looking exactly for it to be more than it really is or didn't you read justafriend post...are you saying she is lying. I kind of wonder if ow really want these relationships to succeed. It seems like, we're looking for any little sign to label this guy, a bad guy or that she's a bad girl, this way we can continue to feed our insecurities.

She may have express disapproval, but she stated she did not understand the dynamics of such a relationship and wanted to understand, ask anyone here who really understand these relationships at the beginning. Every week we have posters who are attracted to ym and their looking for anyone to validate their feelings and let them know their not wrong in their thinking. We want assurances about wrinkles, body images, yw and the why would he want to be with me dialogue that we continue to replay in our brains.

We come here to find out that we're really not all that crazy and that there's a forum that will answer your questions honestly and intelligently.

But she came here with an open mind to understand the whys of this relationship, so that she could be a be support system for her friend. Is that not what a best friend does...try to understand, seek a different point of view.

I believe many of us gave her very good advice so much so that even on other threads that she posted, I remember her defending the agr. If that's a "best friend" trying to manipulate her friend's relationship towards her own end...geez, maybe I don't know the true definition of friendship. Or maybe I'm just so naive.

But what I dont get is why a guy that is dating someone else would think its ok to have a very best friend that he had previously dated before. Specially one that so involved in his life that she has to come here to understand his new relationship.

And why not???? The ym have to deal with it too, maybe not always friends with ex husbands, certainly ex husband and their kids and a lifetime of history, or do you want us to believe that if you have 3 kids you only had sex 3 times...maybe, just maybe... in this forum, this friend came so that she wouldn't stand in judgement of her friend. I would think that if more friends and family came on this forum to understand their siblings/sons/daughters older person relationship they might learn something more valuable than sitting around hating the ow she does not know, alienating her kid, and causing family chaos. This friend obviously learned alot from this forum, can't you even give her credit for that, at least.

Arctic, you did say that you spend time with your friend when this ow was out of town on business. How many times is that? Did you spend any time w/your friend in lieu of your g/f? I think you said you didn't, so she didn't get cheated out of her time in the least.

Arctic, I do think you have to do what's right for you and this woman. Obviously for her its a deal breaker. And I will say it is a stupid one if it means giving up what could be an exceptional relationship because you can't cope. Its a tough choice, but a choice that you're going to have to make whether you like it or not...and don't believe she doesn't want to put you in that situation, she knows exactly what she's doing...to be with her is to let go of your friend...that's it, no and/ifs/ or buts, no compromises (or are there)?

justafriend... i feel for you...I've been in your shoes...it sucks, but you may have to come to the accept the fact that you may just have to step aside. Its going to be painful and difficult but unfortunately there's nothing you can do, sometimes you jsut can't crack a woman's insecurity, although it may lie dormant for awhile, one thing I've learn, it always resurfaces some other way and crushes everything in its path. You don't want to be there and be the blame.

Paris

I agree that a woman's tuition has an uncanny track record in general. We "read" other women and their intentions pretty well because we can recognize ourselves in other females.

Back when my ex ym and I were madly in love (but not out of the closet yet-publicly) and everything was going fine, an ex gf of his reconnected as "just friends" . I knew her, and loved her as my friend too....but after seeing her talking to him one day I knew she wanted him back instantly. I just felt it in my gut. I mentioned this to him and he laughed saying, "We are sooooo over each other, and I would never be attracted to her now that I have you in my life anyway!"

A week later, the ex gf called me, and during our friendly conversation asked me, "Karen, do you think there's a chance for me and ---- again?" (She didn't know we had been together trying to figure out how to "go public" for about 4 months already). I had to tell her about us right there...which was hard because she never had a clue and felt so awkward afterward.

When I told my ym that my suspicions were true, he was dumbfounded. Men just can't see it like we can, ya know?

My point: OW can read other women and their intentions pretty well. Arctic, you are probably COMPLETELY innocent in all of this with pure intentions, but your OW may see something from the other side and be fearful of the "triangle" that could be created as you grow in "friendly-intimacy" with your ex. You know, in my case, my ex ym told the ex gf when he saw her next that he was so happy to be with me, etc. He did that on purpose to make it clear without confrontation that he was not available. ALL of my insecurities about "them" vanished immediately. Sometimes all women need to feel secure is direct action like that to show us our man wants only us, and is willing to make that clear to anyone who may be trying to step into the picture, even unintentionally. His conversation with her didn't destroy their friendship, but it did establish firm boundaries that made me totally comfortable and secure at the time.

I think there's a difference with your example and Arctics though. In yours, the friend came back into his life, whilst in Arctics, she's always been there and was friends before he started this relationship.

Now, I have a friend that I became involved with romantically, briefly. It never worked out because I still wasn't over my ex and when I'd sorted myself out a bit, she'd moved on. We are STILL friends 8 years later. When my relationship with my g/f started, that friends opinion was important to me. She pointed out that my g/f has a child and therefore I wouldn't be the most important thing in her life and could I cope with that? She wanted to make sure that I would be getting everything I wanted out of my relationship. I even told my g/f that she had told me that!!!!! Actually, I warned her before I spoke to my friend that she might not be entirely happy. Was my g/f threatened... no. In fact, she would have liked to have met her over Christmas even though it didn't happen. Was that ex being manipulative..... no. All she wanted was the best for me, she's seen me go through some hard times and wants me to be happy. Our friendship has developed over a period of 8 years and there is no way we would ever be romantically involved again. Quite simply, we're just not each others types.

Remember we don't have P's side of things here. She might feel threatened because she's insecure. She might feel threatened because of the friends behaviour. We don't know why and second guessing how she felt is difficult.

I hope that you can work things out anyway.

I think part of the problem when you have a close friendship with someone of the opposite sex, and then start a relationship with someone, there's an emotional intimacy imbalance. I've noticed this with my ex's girlfriend. He has mentioned to me several times, that he's not as open with her as he is with me. And I pointed out to him, that I think that's normal and will change over time. After all, him and I have been through hell and back and have known each other for 10 years. He hasn't even known her for a year. So, the other partner can feel a bit threatened, or left out, because of this. But, I think it's just a matter of time, and maybe even setting up boundaries so there's less of an emotional attachment to the friend - which might allow more growth within the relationship? I don't know the answer, since I'm just discovering this myself. Ideas?

Arcticblack: was there any way that you and P could work out an agreement on maybe amount of time you spend with your friend or level of intimacy that you could agree on? I don't like the idea of setting restrictions on friendships, but maybe there's a compromise?

About women's intuition, I fully agree that women can "read" other women much better than men can in most cases. But, also we need to be careful about confusing intuition with past experiences. I'm pretty intuitive, but I also transfer past experiences to my current relationship, and once we talk it over I see that it's completely different, but I just see things through a different lense now. So, I think we need to be aware of that as well.

I think maybe I have a mis-understanding of the term 'best friend'. To me my best friend is one that I share my life with.

We're open and honest with each other. We know secrets and fears, likes and dislikes about each other. We know hopes and dreams about each other. We've spent time together and we've grown together.

The next closest relationship of that kind with me would be with my man.

So I just cant imagine that my best friend would be someone that I had had an intimate relationship with and my man be open to that.

Artic:
I called it a curious post, as I also saw her as wanting to understand. But I have to admit that I remember reading the post and thought...hmm..is there something more behind this. Maybe your ex thought that too.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paris: I know everyone is different, but in my case, I dont have an ex that my y/m had to deal with(he's deceased). I have 2 kids, one a teen and on the way out and the other grown and gone out of the house.
So him being a part of my life and dealing with a person that I had dated whom is now my best friend, to me would be asking too much. Why should I bring that into the relationship, to me being in a age gap relationship has enough issues just as any relationship does, but why add more to it if I care for him.

I agree our past experiences can colour our intuition.

I guess the bottom line is due to my past experiences with my intuition being right I can see P's issues very clearly.

I just wouldnt want it, Im sorry that is wrong to some people, but its just me.
I guess any man involving himself with me will figure this out and decide if its something he can live with.

I really want/need to be his best friend but dont need to be his only friend.

For me, having my boyfriend spend time with an ex is completely unacceptable.
Just how i am, maybe I need to rexamine myself but this is just how I feel. I believe lust can overtake good senses even when 2 people have the absolute best intentions.(its happened to me, not with me the one doing it, my bf did)

I am insecure though so for those really secure people out there I really admire and WISH I could be so secure that none of this would be an issue.

I am trying to envisage having a boy friend that says he is not in love with me yet .....He also says we are not best friends though he spends time with his x-girlfriend, who he says IS his best friend......Im not really liking that situation so far......!!!

Artic.....Whether P trusts you or not......Even if P knew you and your x-girlfriend were not going to be back together.....Your 'Best Friend' and you have something that P doesn't, and she is your 'Girlfriend'.......To me 'Girlfriend' means very very important, comes first (exception children)....And that is that.....Best friends second.....Thats the rules......In the book that we don't have.....But to me its unspoken.....So, P doesnt feel like she is coming first here.....Is this right???........'Best Friends' ...You say you 'want' P to be one of them.....It feels like this is a special privalege that she has to earn.....You talk about it like its a medal, she doesn't have yet.....How can you know when this moment will happen......We know when we have won a competition....But a Friendship???.....Doesn't this just happen.....What is the time limit???......And how do you know???

Perhaps if you had started this whole thing without the use of 'Labels'......It would have been a lot easier....But you seem to have a label and a place for all these things....Love, Friendship, Bestfriends, Girlfriends.....And you put them in their boxes...Perhaps you should just forget about the labels and go with what you really FEEL.....Perhaps after all P is just not the one for you.....If you really loved her, I guess you wouldn't have let her go.....:)

Heather & Tink........

I totally understand where you're coming from on this.

For me, I cant see some female that has had an intimate relationship with my man now hanging out with him and being his best buddy. Him sharing his time and life with her as a best friend would, would bother me. Her being there for him when/if things go wrong with us would leave me to wonder about too many possibilities. I dont think its being insecure. As my granny would say.....Thats just a little too close for comfort :)

The close female friend that my man does have has always made me feel comfortable. When I first met her she let me know that she had known him for years and thought of him like a brother. We've gotten along great since then.

I'm sure that are other aspects to this that we dont know about since we havent heard from P.

I just wouldnt want it, Im sorry that is wrong to some people, but its just me.

I guess any man involving himself with me will figure this out and decide if its something he can live with.

I really want/need to be his best friend but dont need to be his only friend.

For me, having my boyfriend spend time with an ex is completely unacceptable.
Just how i am, maybe I need to rexamine myself but this is just how I feel. I believe lust can overtake good senses even when 2 people have the absolute best intentions.(its happened to me, not with me the one doing it, my bf did)

I am insecure though so for those really secure people out there I really admire and WISH I could be so secure that none of this would be an issue.

I agree with your thoughts Heather...I don't consider it an insecurity issue, rather a personal preference..and yeah, I'm with you, it's either accepted for what it is by my mate.. if it's not then I'm not the right person for them...they need to move on.

I can definitely read other women, and sense when they are flirting or leading up to it. I also know that things can get out of hand very quickly between two consenting adults so why risk it?

Personally, I think your partner should be your "best friend" and if they're not then, maybe you should think about why you're with them?? In addition, I do not agree that women and men can be "just friends" on all levels all the time. I believe that many other women & men as well, have ulterior motives disguised as "friendliness"..and frankly, I have rarely been wrong when I've sensed that something is not quite right with another guy and his approach to me...as well as certain other women and their approach toward my boyfriend.

It's ok to be friends with the opposite sex...as long as your partner is completely involved and included...otherwise, it's unacceptable to me..and that's it...period...it's not up for debate with me...I feel very strongly about this issue.

Bottom line: Why should I give up an amazing friendship just because the person is a former boyfriend of mine? Arctic and I were good friends long before we had our mini-relationship. And all we wanted when we broke up was to return to that. Our friendship has always been the most important thing.

But there is no underlying threat, no desire to rekindle the romance, etc. I am happily finding fulfillment elsewhere.

I have many close male friends, and many of my boyfriends have had close relationships with other females, and ex-girlfriends.

Really, it boils down to one thing. A lack of trust. Insecurity. Whatever you want to call it. And not a lack of trust in the ex who is still a close friend. That is just where the focus is. The real lack of trust is in the man who is still good friends with an ex. And if you can't trust your man, why be with him?

I can handle boyfriends of mine being close with their ex-girlfriends for one reason... I trust the men I am with. If I didn't, yeah I would possibly have a problem dealing with it.

If you learn to trust the men you are with, it shouldn't matter that one of their closest friends is an ex.

And if you can't trust your man, why be with him?

SO I GUESS WHAT P IS SAYING THEN IS....IF MY LOVER/BOYFRIEND CANT BE MY 'BEST FRIEND'......THEN WHY BE WITH 'HIM'

I can handle boyfriends of mine being close with their ex-girlfriends for one reason... I trust the men I am with. If I didn't, yeah I would possibly have a problem dealing with it.

WOULD YOU HAVE A PROBLEM THEN, DEALING WITH BOYFRIENDS BEING NOT 'YOUR' BEST FRIEND BUT 'THEIRS'

If you learn to trust the men you are with, it shouldn't matter that one of their closest friends is an ex.

EXACTLY......CLOSEST FRIEND TO EX, BUT NOT CLOSET FRIEND TO P.....

But it doesn't look like you DO have to give him up after all.....I just cant help but think that the next 'girlfriend' he has may have the very same issues......Who knows......

QUOTED FROM TINKABELL:

I can handle boyfriends of mine being close with their ex-girlfriends for one reason... I trust the men I am with. If I didn't, yeah I would possibly have a problem dealing with it.

WOULD YOU HAVE A PROBLEM THEN, DEALING WITH BOYFRIENDS BEING NOT 'YOUR' BEST FRIEND BUT 'THEIRS'


Been there done that. I certainly haven't been the best friend of every man I have been with. And at least one occasion that I recall, my bf best friend was an ex.

Again, if you trust the guy, it isn't an issue.

....Im giving up now because the whole 'point' just seems to keep being missed here.....

I cannot motivate any more energy to try and get you and Artic to understand right now, I was wondering why I was even bothering to write my last post.....Cos you obviously just dont get it....and I cant explain anymore.....Its bedtime....:)

I shall hand it all over to P.....If she hasn't given up already too.....:)

I believe that trust, like love, is something which takes time to be earned in a new relationship. For someone to say `well P should have just blindly trusted Artic from the start' is no different to saying `well, Arctic should have just loved P & been best friends with her from the start'. Maybe P, like Artic, needed more time and more assurance before she felt able to give that level of trust to a new partner. Doesn't sound like this occurred.

Right... I would say there's 2 different ways of looking at this.

1. P is upset because she can't be 'best friends' with Arctic because of Justafriend.
2. P dosn't feel that Arctic and Justafriend are just friends, because there's something underlying their friendship.

In situation 1, swap Justafriend for another male friend. Would P still feel the same??? Would any of you??? That's where the problem is. If you would feel differently if the friend was male, then this isn't even the problem at all, insecurity is.
Arctic has already said that he's taking the relationship slowly because he wants it to work out and he felt that was the best thing to do. In this case... no, he won't be 'best friends' with her just yet, it'll take time but that appears to be something he wants with her eventually, and isn't that what matters most? Maybe it isn't fast enough for P? Maybe she's just the wrong woman at the wrong time? Or maybe he can explain this to her and she'll understand.

In situation 2 she might be right, but more probably is wrong IMO, and it's P's insecurity that's letting her down.

The whole "insecurity" issue is getting old and tiring to me..it seems it's automatically assumed that a woman (or man for that matter) is "insecure" if they are uncomfortable with their bf or gf hanging out and being best buddies with an old gf or bf...if you chose to think it's "insecurity" that's your choice, I think everyone who feels this way should take a step back and evaluate..how many "successful" long term relationships they themselves have actually been in...no matter HOW much you trust the other person...and no matter HOW secure you are as a person...'scuse me, but your PARTNER is supposed to be your best friend and the focus of your energies...if they are not...then I dunno...go back to the old gf or bf I guess and let them be the focus...this is my last post also regarding this subject...lots of people have posted and I am sensing a great deal of "denial" on the part of the best friend and the bf here...I don't feel you have any right to call the bf's significant other insecure either...that in and of it's self violates the trust and pits him against her (which is not a "friendly gesture" in my opinion)...justafriend..curious..maybe I missed this so forgive me if I did..what is your age and how long have you been in a relationship with your bf? How many LONG TERM relationships have you been in (long term = 5 years plus). Just wondered...cos I don't feel you can really have a strong opinion or take a firm stand on a subject without the experience to back you up...and personally, I always consider the source when I take advice from someone...point being..why do you think you are an authority on this subject?

Since you asked, I've had two long-term relationships, and within reasonable bounds, I agree with Arctic and JustaFriend. My late husband had a strong friendship(not quite a best friend scenario, but close) with his ex for the 1st couple years of our relationship (which lasted 10 years until his death), and as I've posted numerous times, I have kept up an email/chatting intimate friendship with an ex of mine for most of the current relationship's duration. (Six years). I really believe that respect for the connections and intimacies that exist in your partner's life before they met you is important. I don't believe that one romantic partner "replaces" an entire support system of friends or family members or should. I know that men and women can be close and non-sexual friends. I think it is possible to be emotionally intimate with more than one person at a time in different ways, and that giving to one does not take away from the other, that it makes us richer and happier people to have a variety of people that we love in our lives. I think it's better to operate from a place of trust rather than one of fear, and if someone is worth keeping than they will live up to the trust placed in them.

When it comes to Artic and P, it does sound to me like the relationship was still in a very early phase, and perhaps there wasn't enough work done at reassurance because the relationship just wasn't that compelling on a lot of fronts, and this was just the easiest and most obvious reason to latch on for why it wasn't working.

"As I grow older, I pay less attention to what men say. I just
watch what they do."

*Andrew Carnegie

:)

LOVE that quote Kathy. I've learned that too - does that mean I'm growing old!?? :eek:

No CabinFever...it just means you're getting "wiser"...lol ;)

Kaths.......I like your pic!!!

Kaths.......I like your pic!!!

Thanks Tinks..I found the coolest fractal site on google last night..and downloaded some of them...thought this one was COOL..I did a search under "life" to find some really cool ones (like this one). :)

I think as another poster said, alot of our insecurities on opposite sex friends comes from experience, not necessarily what their men might do because basically, heck, if your man wants to cheat on you...he can do it with anyone at any time, wherever he is, since his leash is not exactly that short. Especially for those who are in ldr...trust is all you've got.

These agr are turburlent enough as they are, I believe they can use every support they can get and if you have friends and family who are willing to fight the good fight for you and your relationship with a ym for whom most people may consider you his mother...I don't understand why would you not want them in your corner whether she's his friend or he's an ow friend.

What I'm getting here is that justafriend is really lying? Oh you won't actually come out and say it, but its what you're implying. Even after she's told you this isn't the situation, its interesting how you won't believe her, but you can emphatize with P...now is that insecurity or experience shaking you in your boots.

And I think you don't give men enough credit to see flirtation when it comes to them. I also think there are some men who are oblivious to it and may have to have it pointed out to them, but a good man will go back to the flirt and set her straight or at least send her packing, a honourable man will than make every effort to reassure his woman he stands with her which Arctic has.

When does an ow than cause the insecurity to turn to trust finally, once and for all and believe in her man. How long is that suppose to fricking take. Its the number one killer of these relationships...I would go crazy if I have to constantly prove to a man that I stand with him and no other, it would wear me down after awhile that someone would not believe in or my word.

I really believe that respect for the connections and intimacies that exist in your partner's life before they met you is important. I don't believe that one romantic partner "replaces" an entire support system of friends or family members or should.

I agree. I do agree that he shouldn't make them more involve in his relationships but they are there and they are part of his history and shaped him into who he is and who we fell in love with.

Paris

I agree that a woman's tuition has an uncanny track record in general. We "read" other women and their intentions pretty well because we can recognize ourselves in other females.


So true! And you know, men can be responding to these vibes and not really think we see it, but we do. Never underestimate a woman's radar. But in response to what your ow did, I think she made her decision in a fair manner. She did NOT ask you to break it off with your pal, she took a look at herself and decided that she wasn't comfortable with the situation so she left you! I don't blame her. I would not be comfy with that situation. I've had guys lie to me about this type of thing before! Shrug.
Ali

Hi there.....I DO remember your posts way back, wondering or at least trying to understand why a YM would have an attraction to an older woman. As I recall, you got a pretty decent array of answers too! I recall your questions as being intelligent and thoughtful.

One thing that screamed out at me when I read your post was that you and Artic spent time together away from his girlfriend's company "due to work schedules and other engagements." I have to be honest with you.....if I were his g/f, I would think that the minute I wasn't around, he was looking for you. While you're not his sleeping partner, there is another whole set of implications there when you each say the other is your "best friend." Your best friend is the person you seek out for company, solace, companionship and kinship, advice, etc. That person ideally is your significant other.

I can see why she had an issue with you now that I think about it further and read your post. I wouldn't have a problem with a b/f having a female as a friend, but I guess I would have a problem with a man who called an EX g/f his best friend. Even though you imply that you would never be romantically involved again, the fact remains that you already have been, and that's a little too close to home if you're a woman having a sexual relationship with a man who continues to seek emotional closeness with an ex sexual partner.


Yeah, from a guy's perspective, he could be sleeping with her while waiting for you to come to your senses and come back to him. I've seen it happen. Romance rocks, but not when your guy has his mind on someone else.
Ali