How you guys feel about.... [Archive] - Ageless Love - Your community for age gap relationship support!

Tinkabell

09-16-2005, 05:01 AM

THE GUY ALWAYS HAS TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE....

Its imbred in our society unfortunately, and it causes ALL sorts of disruptions and annoyances....In fact it seems so embedded in our consciousness....I sometimes wonder it things will ever 'Change'

I have analysed this apparent ridiculous myth....for reasons as to 'why' it is so prevelant....and I have come up with this:-

To be the one to make the first move means that you have the ....Control....Power...and the ball is in YOUR Court....

To be the one 'Waiting' for the other person to make the first move...leaves you in a position of 'weakness'.....Waiting.....Wanting......Hoping.... .Etc

So of course....It Makes Perfect Sense.....WHY men have to make the first move....

It is a Mans World....and they are the ALL powerful ones....

We wouldn't want to take 'THAT' away from them would we????

Do I seem Bitter????....

No....Not me.....I just wish things were different....Because to me....it really doesn't matter....If you like someone....Why hide it???

Inahnia

09-16-2005, 06:02 AM

Upbringing, yes. I was taught that for a woman to make the first move makes her look desperate, or 'easy', and that 'nice girls' can let the man know in more subtle ways that she is interested, without actually being that forward. It always seemed to work well enough, although some guys are a bit dense about picking up the signals :p

jetstream

09-16-2005, 07:42 AM

Well, I got myself into an OW/YM relationship before I ever heard the term "cougar"... didn't know about that before I started reading up on OW/YM! :rolleyes:

I had to make the first move. This guy and I had flirted for MONTHS and he was not going to do it. He was waiting for me. I was waiting for him. It just drove me crazy until I asked him if he wanted to have a drink with me (in a friendly way).

THEN he was confused about if I only meant it to be friends. I had to start all of it, and that includes even initiating the first kiss! :p Never done that one before either. But perhaps it was our age difference, perhaps it was shyness on his part. He quickly became "un-shy" and did most of the initiating dates etc. thereafter.

Still dating after 5+ months --- follow your gut, is what I say. Or wait until you just can't stand it anymore and have to know, then I say you need to do something, even just casually, to find out.

I don't think game-playing helped me. If it's there, if they're truly interested, it matters not who officially starts it. The key is if they're interested in the first place. If that is the case, it does not matter. If they are "into you" they'll be thrilled you finally asked. It might take a load off them. Basic interest in the first place, yep, that's what I'd go by.

jetstream

09-16-2005, 07:48 AM

One more thing -- now, online, that's something I don't know, because you won't have been aquainted with them in person and can gauge body language and so forth. But I just don't believe in game-playing anymore, and I think it drives you crazy. When you can't know for sure what their background is, I say just be yourself, do what you feel led to do, and pique their interest along the way by not being overly available, for ex., just keep them aware of your fabulousness (!) and be around enough so they know YOU'RE interested. Just maintain your own life while you get stuff off the ground - I always think they like it when they know you're keeping on keeping on, with your own stuff, while you see them. Keeps interest up. Especially if you need to introduce the opening moves.

Hope this helps. This is just me.

Faith47

09-16-2005, 09:43 AM

special K

09-16-2005, 09:43 AM

I have been in both positions (been the pursuer and the pursued :) ), and I have to admit that it "feels" better to be pursued. AND....in almost every example in my dating/marriage history (even way back in high school), when I made the first move the relationship didn't go as well in the long run and I was not ever truly sure that they really wanted me or if we were together just by default.

My strongest relationships, and the ones I've felt the most loved/adored/secure in have been those where the guy pursued me...and often was relentless until I surrendered :D

For me, I don't know...I just like to BE SURE that he wants ME...and I do truly believe in that whole hunter/gatherer component (come on, it's just so obvious whether we want to agree with it, or think it's politically correct or not) that men LIKE to seek out and secure "the prize"....they appreciate the chase and acquisition aspect of things, including the women they find irresistable and will eventually love.

And, I sort of disagree about who has the control....I think the pursued has most of it. They basically get to set the pace of things, hold the cards for acceptance or rejection of the other person at least at the beginning. (And who doesn't like having the control?!?!?)

I agree with Paris (I think it was Paris) who says that relationships just work out better if the man is the one "more in love", or I would paraphrase that to be "convinced he wants THIS woman and is willing to do whatever it takes to win her heart"....

The strong AG relationships here that have weathered storms and survived for years generally have made it (I think) because the ym was the one who wouldn't give up, and did the pursuing initially (or kept trying to convince us that they were the wonderful men they turned out to be ;) ). There's a significant amount of security in that for us women because WE know that if the guy's just not that into us, things will suck after a while. When they make the first, second and third first-move, we are more sure that THEY want us and are willing to invest in the relationship.

That's my take on the matter, Faith....and I'm stickin to it!

Faith47

09-16-2005, 09:44 AM

I understand, but still. I have quite a lot of very good female friends, and whenever they're interested in someone and they talk about why he doesn't come over to ask I'm like; "Well, if you like him so much and want to get to know him, why don't you go over?"

And then it's the usual "yeah, but he's supposed to ask me, yada, yada". LOL Just don't make much sense to me, that's all. :D

Thanks Moby :)
One guy answered so far lol
Now waiting for MORE response GUYS!
:rolleyes:

Faith47

09-16-2005, 10:20 AM

That's my take on the matter, Faith....and I'm stickin to it![/QUOTE]

Make total sense to me K! You can stick to it...no problemo there ;)

I am just curious from a guy point of view!

Come on guys. There has been like 100 people reading this thread...what?
Only girls read it...dont think so!

Faith47

09-16-2005, 10:21 AM

Ok, I am one of those GUY people...and I just happen to have two spare pennies in my pocket.....

Well, I think it's perfectly normal for a woman to set the wheels in motion, in regards to matters of the heart.

Times have definitely changed. Women these days have just as much freedom to make the first move. As one of those GUY people, I think it is extremely flattering to be approached by a woman first.

In general, my philosophy ignores all the antiquated (and constricting) gender roles of the past, and simply comes down to just telling another person that you care about them and would like to learn more about them. I know it's tough to put yourself out on the line, so to speak, but if your heart is really in the right place, then I think it's worth the risk.

YE! Another guy point of view...thanks no excuse :D

Lynn

09-16-2005, 10:50 AM

I go along with Special K in this. I always had this nagging doubt whenever I did the pursuing and the relationship inevitably came to an end. I had a guy actually tell me once when I was feeling this way "well you're the one that wanted to go out!" What an insensitive jerk he was. Not all guys, thank goodness, are like that. But it only added to my never wanting to be the initiator in a relationship for fear of rejection.

When I met Dereck online it would've never got off the ground if he didn't tell me how he felt about me. I kept my feelings to myself until then.

But anyway, he did tell me something once that sticks with me... that he likes, no LOVES it when I initiate romance. He does his fair share, but from what I'm learning from him, there are some guys that need to be pursued just as much as a woman. It makes him feel desirable. And he is!

Faith47

09-16-2005, 10:56 AM

Rob

09-16-2005, 11:39 AM

Faith47

09-16-2005, 11:43 AM

Man, I'm sorry that you had to go through that! :(

All I will add to that is that men also put themselves out on the line emotionally by being the pursuer. It works both ways. Somebody has to make the first move.

I don't know. I just think all this talk about safeguarding oneself...by staying in control of the situation, and not giving up their position of security is perhaps overanalyzing the inherently risky and unpredictable matters of the heart.

Sometimes, when you are dealing with your heart, you have to put yourself out there. Sure there's a risk, but isn't anything that means so much potentially worth the risk?

Very true No Excuses. If you are sitting there and wait for someone to do something you might pass by something special.
But at the same time as I can see and I feel alot the same than most women that wrote here, we have been raised (our generation anyway) to think that the guy is the pursuer and that if he REALLY likes you he will do the first move no matter what. Soooo, if a guy dont make the move we tend to think he might not be that interested?
That also can be debate as some guys are shy too. Fear of rejection goes both way. hmmm...sounds like a passive attitude when I think about us women being there WAITING for a guy we like to make his move and if he doesnt than we just assume he is not interested.
Well, I'm not saying there isnt truth in that but also it might be that both sides are too shy and are just passing by something that might be wonderful.
who knows!
gosh, not that simple after all!

Faith47

09-16-2005, 11:45 AM

skatergirl

09-16-2005, 12:40 PM

Desert Spring

09-16-2005, 01:09 PM

Awwww, Faith. We have been around this issue lots and lots and it always comes down the same. The men say they would love to be pursued (albeit in a healthy way) and the women always say that they feel uncomfortable with it and they are skeptical that relationships last if the woman does the pursuing.

In my first serious relationship (which lasted 10 years, until he died), he was 11 years older than me and did all the pursuing via the traditional formula. In my second relationship, he was 16 years younger than me, and if I had not pursued him the relationship never would have happened. We have been together for more than six years.

Its always nicer to feel pursued. Its always nicer not to have to risk rejection. It feels comfortable because it "is" more confortable. Men dont like pursuing anymore than we do. They do it because they have to, but its crazy to think that its magically easier for them. It isnt. (Sorry - my apostrophe key is busted on my keyboard - lol).

Heres my advice. Strive for friendship. The best basis for any romantic relationship is friendship. Make enough contact that you know you are dealing with a real and honest person that you genuinely like. And that takes time. But once you know that much, dont hesitate to move it up a notch or give it a shot. Any decent guy, whether interested or not, will simply be flattered. And you wont have to spend your time wondering what might have been. It gets easier with practive and I still think its healthy for both partners to have risked a little to get to where they are. To know that you can be rejected and go on - is a good healthy brave thing to know about yourself. (And you might not get rejected) :)

But its important to take it slow and to know who and what you are dealing with.

Loucine

09-16-2005, 01:11 PM

Here's anothe guy view for you Faith.

I can't quite wrap my head around the women who say the guy should make the first move because they want to be sure he's interested, etc. Erm, hang on a second, but isn't it the same for a guy?

Every relationship I've had, bar one, I've been pursued. The reason is that I'm a very shy person, simple as that. The one where I put myself out on the line went absolutely nowhere and I felt rejected and hurt by it, it also took a lot of willpower and effort on my part to just get myself to do something about it.

My g/f made the move on me. It's a year and a half since that happened and we're still together. Who says women can't make the first move?

Just think of all those shy guys out there (like me) that might be brilliant relationship material but you won't get to find out because 'women don't make the first move'.

Also, things HAVE changed. Many, many y/w are much more likely to make the first move now. It's still more down to the guys to, but it's changing IMO.

This is a good answer Rob and I agree, but there's another problem. What if he goes ahead and makes the first move and the woman pursues later. At this point I don't care who made the very first move but there's lots to be done afterwards until the realtionship becomes stable.

I have been pursued by men who went head over heels for me, they made the first move or I did who cares. Then I backed up for some reason. He did EVERYTHING to have me. Sent flowers and letters, sang serenades at my window, cried, pulled his hair, walked upside down, hit his head twice against the ceiling once against the left wall, 3 times the right, he threatened to drink poison and die a terrible death....... at the end I gave up, I liked him in the first place and all the odds became nil.

Why is it that if I do one of these things to a man, he runs away ???????? Hell, even if the guy made the first move and then backed up for some strange reason, I know he likes me and I'm nuts about him, can I send him flowers ?????

special K

09-16-2005, 01:40 PM

Don't get me wrong....I definitely will make it obvious that I'm interested in a guy (may "wink" first on a personals site, flirt in real life, and I have gotten to the point twice where I HAD to say something about my attraction,etc.)...but if there is no equal/opposite reaction, I drop it. I don't pursue...I just don't. And I don't think it's due to societal norms or how I was brought up, or that I think it's "wrong" or that women can't initiate, it just does not work for me.

Through countless situations in the past from personal experiences to draw on, things work best (for me ;) ) when the guy is initially convinced he wants to pursue me and takes it from there. Read the book "He's Not That Into You" written by a guy with insights into the male psyche in this whole romance thing. In a revamped, loose sense it supports the tried and true book from days gone by, "The Rules". Take what rings true for you, and leave the rest; but do KNOW that if he's into you, you have to step back to observe the signals, not run after him in desperation begging for him to notice/like you/date you, etc.

Heres my advice. Strive for friendship. The best basis for any romantic relationship is friendship. Make enough contact that you know you are dealing with a real and honest person that you genuinely like.
Loved this quote from Dessert, and I totally agree....

Rob

09-16-2005, 01:47 PM

Why is it that if I do one of these things to a man, he runs away ???????? Hell, even if the guy made the first move and then backed up for some strange reason, I know he likes me and I'm nuts about him, can I send him flowers ?????

It depends on the guy. I say that it dosn't matter who makes the first move, it should just be the less shy one. Maybe you picked the wrong guy to make a move on. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of guys out there, like me, that just are too shy, or lack the confidence to approach a woman. If you women are never prepared to approach them, then maybe you're missing out on something. It's about gauging what people are like and then deciding what action to take, whether to approach them or let them approach you. It just shouldn't really make a difference whether that person is male or female, it's what the person is like that matters.

Also, there are a LOT of guys that don't like that (almost) gameplaying where the woman tries to flirt with the guy. A lot of guys, like me, simply don't get it and have no clue what's going on. The number of times I've left somewhere after a night out and my friends have said something along the lines of "that girl was so after you". i don't even have the first clue half the time, or I'm in two minds thinking about it. I liked that there was none of that messing about with my gf when I met her.

Btw, I think you might be better off sending something practical, like a powersaw or screwdriver, or even a six pack of beer, than flowers. lol

Faith47

09-16-2005, 01:49 PM

Hi Faith! For me, I need the guy to make the first move. It is very exciting for me to be pursued! Believe me girls are rejected too...even when they don't make the first move. If I smile and flirt with a guy and he passes...that hurts too, just like it does when guys are turned down. I know guys say they can't read the signals but believe me when a girl is interested I believe you can see it; (at least you can with me!) kind of a nervous, sexy, sweet thing in their eyes and behavior. Faith, my attitude is very unpopular today and remember I don't even date off the internet...so take what I say with a grain of salt!!! This is just my personal preference, I love it when a guy approaches me...there's something about the strength and the forwardness and confidence...

I know girl. I tought about you when I was writing and reading this thread. I knew your view on this ;)
I think basically is what makes YOU feel comfortable. Thats what counts. I personnally prefer to be pursued, no doubt about it but sometimes I do wonder. And also to answer DesertSpring, I think too that it starts with friendship. Thats the thing. I dnt have the intention of writing a guy and be all over him lol. Friendship first, getting to know the person. maybe and i say maybe if there is something that can develop than great.
I was just wondering how guys view women making the first move. Getting back to my basic question.
I am shy (even if it doesnt show here) and sometimes there is some guys I would like just to get to know. But I dont really dare. In real life I am the same. I am reserved and I rarely go to people. I'm easy to talk to once you approach me, but to establish the contact first, I find it a bit difficult.
more guys view would be appreciated. So far I can see guys dont mind women approaching them and it wont make them less interested. That is what I'm getting from it. (so far)
gosh I'm tired. I can barely think straight right now so I will stop at that for now.

Loucine

09-16-2005, 01:53 PM

Faith47

09-16-2005, 01:55 PM

[QUOTE=Rob]
Also, there are a LOT of guys that don't like that (almost) gameplaying where the woman tries to flirt with the guy. A lot of guys, like me, simply don't get it and have no clue what's going on. The number of times I've left somewhere after a night out and my friends have said something along the lines of "that girl was so after you". i don't even have the first clue half the time, or I'm in two minds thinking about it. I liked that there was none of that messing about with my gf when I met her.

Bingo! Guys ARE clueless. lol
I mean if a woman is interested you guys dont see it. Well, the shy type anyhow. I guess i'm the same too. I think it truly depends of the person thing is we are not mind reader so how can we know if a person is shy or not? Its not written on their foreheads :confused:
Well, I guess we are going in circle! lol
It really depends of the type of guy and type of girl.
But I can see most guys DONT mind the woman doing the first move. I am not saying she has to want to be IN a relationship with the guy first but to show interest is OK.
Am I understanding it right?

Faith47

09-16-2005, 01:57 PM

So if I understood correctly, it is still a man's world.

If a woman pursues a man she's considered cheap, easy and in the case of OW/YM a cougar and if the man does the same he's considered romantic and the women love it.

So sad, so so sad :(

sorry Rob, just saw your thread, will answer in a sec.

Loucine,
re-read the thread because that is NOT at all what is transpiring here.

skatergirl

09-16-2005, 02:02 PM

Go for it!! I don't think there's anything wrong with it!! I'm so behind the times anyway...don't listen 2 me! ;) Maybe I wouldn't be alone today if I were more forward...but that's just me!!!!!

Loucine

09-16-2005, 02:08 PM

It depends on the guy. I say that it dosn't matter who makes the first move, it should just be the less shy one. Maybe you picked the wrong guy to make a move on. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of guys out there, like me, that just are too shy, or lack the confidence to approach a woman. If you women are never prepared to approach them, then maybe you're missing out on something. It's about gauging what people are like and then deciding what action to take, whether to approach them or let them approach you. It just shouldn't really make a difference whether that person is male or female, it's what the person is like that matters.

Also, there are a LOT of guys that don't like that (almost) gameplaying where the woman tries to flirt with the guy. A lot of guys, like me, simply don't get it and have no clue what's going on. The number of times I've left somewhere after a night out and my friends have said something along the lines of "that girl was so after you". i don't even have the first clue half the time, or I'm in two minds thinking about it. I liked that there was none of that messing about with my gf when I met her.

Btw, I think you might be better off sending something practical, like a powersaw or screwdriver, or even a six pack of beer, than flowers. lol

Maybe you're right, maybe I chose the wrong guy to pursue.He made the first move, then backed up, came back and backed up again for very odd reasons, in short, he keeps coming back and saying nice things that get me even more hooked on him and then disappears again.

It's just that it VERY rarely happens that I really like a guy.

alright, I'll send him a screwdriver across the channel and if he doesn't respond I'll go ahead and send a six pack of beer and if that doesn't work I'll cross over with a powersaw and cut him into pieces. How's that ? :o

Faith47

09-16-2005, 02:14 PM

Go for it!! I don't think there's anything wrong with it!! I'm so behind the times anyway...don't listen 2 me! ;) Maybe I wouldn't be alone today if I were more forward...but that's just me!!!!!

((((big hug))))
I am SO not worried about you meeting the right one...believe I! :D
You just know what you want girlie and that is great! No compromise with your reality...never.
There is someone just right for you and if you prefer someone pursuing you chances are he prefers pursuing
you get my drift? ;)

star

09-16-2005, 02:19 PM

skatergirl

09-16-2005, 02:20 PM

You always bring tears to my eyes!! Thank you so much!! (((((hugs)))))

Loucine

09-16-2005, 02:23 PM

Loucine,
re-read the thread because that is NOT at all what is transpiring here.

Oui ma chère Faith. je vais relire le thread :)

I'll re-read the thread

Faith47

09-16-2005, 02:23 PM

Faith47

09-16-2005, 02:26 PM

You always bring tears to my eyes!! Thank you so much!! (((((hugs)))))

You are so welcome my dear friend!
Didnt want to make you cry though :o
((((hugs back)))))

Faith47

09-16-2005, 02:27 PM

Oui ma chère Faith. je vais relire le thread :)

I'll re-read the thread

lol
super ma chère Loucine :D

Loucine

09-16-2005, 02:47 PM

ok, I did re-read the thread and what Desert Spring said stayed with me.

"Heres my advice. Strive for friendship. The best basis for any romantic relationship is friendship. Make enough contact that you know you are dealing with a real and honest person that you genuinely like. And that takes time. But once you know that much, dont hesitate to move it up a notch or give it a shot. Any decent guy, whether interested or not, will simply be flattered. And you wont have to spend your time wondering what might have been. It gets easier with practive and I still think its healthy for both partners to have risked a little to get to where they are. To know that you can be rejected and go on - is a good healthy brave thing to know about yourself. (And you might not get rejected) "

Kristin

09-16-2005, 02:53 PM

First of all let me say that I am single now, so obviously NONE of my previous relationships worked out in the long run!

Being raised in the South, I was taught NEVER EVER to make the first move on a guy. I kept to this upbringing and didn't realize that there was a pattern in the type of men who were approaching me. They tended to be aggressive, shallow, selfish men who really didn't treat me the way I wanted to be treated.

Then I met this really sweet, intelligent man and developed a huge crush on him. He was totally unlike any of the men I had ever dated, but he never asked me out or approached me romantically at all. After several months of "pining" for him (lol), I finally made the first move on him for the first time in my life. It was very uncomfortable for me to do so given my upbringing, and I was terrified of him rejecting me since he had never even hinted at us going out.

He said yes, and then told me that he had thought I was "out of his league" and would never have dared to ask me out. To make a long story short, although it did not end up being "happily ever after", we dated for two years and it was without a doubt the best relationship I have ever had. He has raised the bar for me as far as how I expect to be treated in a relationship, and dating him has also helped me to identify the differences between men like him and the aggressive, shallow, selfish types who normally approach me.

I am still not totally comfortable with making the first move, but I will say that if I meet one of those rare men that I think would be a truly good match for me, I'm not gonna let him pass me by just because I was raised a certain way.
There are so many factors, that there is no easy answer to this. I guess "it depends" is the answer.

Star, I had the exact same thing happen - I asked out my husband, who never thought to ask me out because he figured I was already taken, besides out of his league. So, his case, Rob's case and your case CAN happen.

But, honestly? I think it's the exception, not the rule. I think a majority of guys would like women to be more OBVIOUS about their interest, but not be the one to pursue.

And the reason it's harder for women - and I know this is not going to be popular - is guys will go out for sex more than actually being interested in a relationship. If a woman pursues, her chances of getting a guy to go with her are greater because most guys (cringe) will take "interim" relationships, knowing that they are going nowhere, for sex. After bartending for years and years I saw it happen over and over. I even talked to the guys about it (I got to be like a sister).

So guys say they want women to pursue more, but really what they mean is they wish it were easier for them (guys) because it IS hard. Or that the lady in their life would initiate intimacy more. If a girl they really liked came on to them, that's cool. But if she's so-so, they may just go out with her to see if they can get any. But the same idea is deep in their mind that a girl doing hot pursuing is a little easy or desparate - unless they are shy and were wanting her in the first place.

It's very unlikely that a woman will choose to go out with a guy who asks her out for the same reason.

In a nutshell, if a guy asks a woman out and she says yes, he can be pretty confident that she likes him and is truly interested in him. If a woman asks a guy out, there's the added chance that he just says yes because he can get some until someone he really likes comes along. Sorry, but I've had waaay too many guys confirm that to not know that it's true for most guys.

As far as "shy guys" - Jeremy is very shy. Every girl he went out with before me they just sort of hooked up or she initiated it. But he was also the typical guy - he knew that he wasn't in love with or even going to fall in love with these girls. He still had sex with them, though!

But, when it came to me, someone he was REALLY interested in, he pushed himself out of his shell and pursued me - something he had never done before and he KNEW that it was different with me, because he fought his shyness to approach me.

Anyhow, that is why I think women don't do the pursuing and why I think it will stay that way. But that doesn't mean that women can't be a little more forthright in showing their interest in a guy - there doesn't have to be all the "hard to get" games.

Besides, half the time the guy only THINKS he's the one doing the pursuing. Usually the woman has led him right where she wanted him to be! (teasing) :p

kathyw

09-16-2005, 03:24 PM

I think it's ok to show interest..when it comes down to the actual "pursuit" I think the guy should pursue...the reason...that goes back to historical times...not gonna go there...in every relationship I've ever been in (about a total of 3 long term relationships in my life) I have never been the pursuer, I have been the one pursued. This is what works and has worked for me Faith...I don't claim to "know all" in life however, so perhaps their is a better way...I can only speak for myself. :)

GoldieCat

09-16-2005, 04:41 PM

And a third view, it can be straight-up -mutual-. You can both totally be on the same page. It happens that my honey was first to ask to visit me when we were still LD pen-pals, but I was JUST about to ask him the same thing. Then when he did visit, I stole the first kiss. :D Both of us just knew though, and since we've decided to marry I guess we're still both right. :)

But - in just about every case where I've had an actual relationship with someone, it was really clear to both of us that we wanted to pursue things further. I have never played games, and in fact, aggressive pushy guys who thought they could *convince* me to date them were always a huge turnoff. I totally agree with star on that one, if you give up your right to choose, then the ones who decide to push themselves on you tend to be All About Them types who look at you as an acquisition.

I think Rob and Kristin are closest on this, it doesn't have to be either-or all the time, it always Depends. :P

BTW, I know of actual situations where guys have turned women down, even attractive ones. One guy who I actually think of as super immature flat-out refused a gal who offered him sex. It happens, believe it or not! Heh.

Kristin

09-16-2005, 05:04 PM

BTW, I know of actual situations where guys have turned women down, even attractive ones. One guy who I actually think of as super immature flat-out refused a gal who offered him sex. It happens, believe it or not! Heh.
I know, Goldie, that is why I said MOST and not all. Jeremy has turned down women who flat out wanted sex, too. Like I've said before, he told me the first night we made love that if it was just a one nighter for me, he wasn't going through with it!

There ARE some gems out there! :D

suicideblonde

09-16-2005, 05:44 PM

Faith.... this is like the eternal question... what came first, the chicken or the egg?? as there is no definitive answer.... but golly gee..... I am SURE glad that someone asked it as inquiring minds want to know!! :D

I am happy to have read every answer in order to try to evaluate what we poor women should do! :rolleyes:

At any rate... if we follow those dam*able "rules" women, we might wait until we are dead! However, with that comment said, I too think that circumstances and the venue. For example, I think the the net kind of lends itself to a woman first showing interest. I mean take this place for instance. If someone joins who is near us and from what we saw does pique our interest, I see no problem in welcoming that person and finding out about him/her. To me that is not really pursuing but just showing interest! To me pursuing occurs after this, and then I think it is up to the man. If there is nothing after the initial contact then he is really not interested and anything more can turn into the negative, I think.

So Faith. if you just want to pm someone who piques your interest, I say go for it! We only live once and how will a "someone" know you are the least bit interested unless you make the first move of an innocent pm or email??

Hugs to you!
Linda

Faith47

09-16-2005, 07:01 PM

ouf! LOTS of answers and different views. Thanks everyone :D

First, I didnt ask because I am "interested" is someone :p
I'm curious. Sometimes I would like just to write to some guys I think are cool but its not because I want to pursue them. I made girls friends here as I do have affinity with some and I feel sometimes there is also affinity with some guys (not much but some) and I started asking myself the question. Even if its not for a "romantic" purpose, I dont know, I feel shy about it so I decided to ask how guys feel about women approaching them.

There is those that says yes we should go for it (to a certain degree) and those who says we (girls) should wait for the guy to make the move. Some guys says they dont see anything wrong with the woman making the first move (no guys wrote to say otherwise) but Kristin pointed that out and its coming from guys she knew...so. I take some guys too prefer do the first move.

So, in the end it truly depends of the individual and personal choice.
Thanks everyone for your input. I've learned a thing or two today :D

Science Goddess

09-16-2005, 07:34 PM

Upbringing, yes. I was taught that for a woman to make the first move makes her look desperate, or 'easy', and that 'nice girls' can let the man know in more subtle ways that she is interested, without actually being that forward.

These are really the same beast, just dressed up differently. Overt or subtle, making the first move is making the first move. As with just about everything in life, perception is everything. How you make that first move will affect how it is perceived.

"Making the first move" in such a way that the guy never really even realizes it is not difficult. Why? Because a lot of guys like to believe that they made the first move and they 'picked up on you'. (I'm using slang here without any intended derogatory implications.) Thus, even if you positioned yourself in the crowd to be closer, stood in the same book section, or even locked eyes first, a guy will often remember it as him making the first move. Plus, and what Goldie was saying overlaps with this, if the guy responds by pursuing, then he was interested anyway and it really was a mutual thing. And...this works both ways.

And the initial hints and signals between two people can be so subtle that, really, a lot of the time, who's to say who really made the 'first move'?

And all of this is just part of the mating/dating ritual. And to me, there is a difference between playing games and mating rituals. How what's going on is perceived/received will depend on the people involved. Different strokes for different folks...so to speak.

Now, if we're talking true aggressive pursuit, nah, I won't do it. Momentary pursuit, yes, aggressive pursuit? No. It's the other side of what Goldie mentioned ("aggressive pushy guys who thought they could *convince* me to date them were always a huge turnoff"). If I had to aggressively pursue someone, then they're not interested, right? I wouldn't want to have to *convince* someone to go out with me. Sounds...weird.

Have I ever made an aggressive first move on someone? Well, what I consider aggressive might not be what 'you' consider aggressive. Actions that some women find 'natural', others may not. I'm not shy but I'm not usually a hugely overt 'flirter'; not an in-your-face flirter. And, see? to me, that type of flirting seems like playing games to me. Understated yet unmistakable flirting, unmistakable interest, is more my style.

As for the 'cougar' aspect, I don't really understand it. I mean, I understand the derogatory meaning of this term as defined by the media these days, in respect to OW 'pursuing' YM. But really, what's the difference if I make a move on a YM as opposed to an OM? Why does pursuing one over the other make me more or less of a 'cougar'?

To put it plainly, it's really just a stupid term. What can you do besides laugh at it and, if appropriate, correct and educate people who use it in your presence?

Of course...*laugh*...it was the word of the weekend recently when I had friends up for a couple of days. And we were kidding. Sort of...

special K

09-16-2005, 08:24 PM

In a nutshell, if a guy asks a woman out and she says yes, he can be pretty confident that she likes him and is truly interested in him. If a woman asks a guy out, there's the added chance that he just says yes because he can get some until someone he really likes comes along. Sorry, but I've had waaay too many guys confirm that to not know that it's true for most guys.

I totally agree with this, Kristen...I was just trying to figure out HOW to say it, but you did it so well.

And, Loucine, you crack me....go easy with the chain saw :D

Raven Magdalene

09-16-2005, 09:14 PM

....Heres my advice. Strive for friendship. The best basis for any romantic relationship is friendship. Make enough contact that you know you are dealing with a real and honest person that you genuinely like. And that takes time. But once you know that much, dont hesitate to move it up a notch or give it a shot. Any decent guy, whether interested or not, will simply be flattered. And you wont have to spend your time wondering what might have been. It gets easier with practive and I still think its healthy for both partners to have risked a little to get to where they are. To know that you can be rejected and go on - is a good healthy brave thing to know about yourself. (And you might not get rejected) :)

But its important to take it slow and to know who and what you are dealing with.

Think this about sums up my opinion and add 'leave out expectations, don't give too much of self & Enjoy!' Life is indeed too short. :D

Magnetar

09-16-2005, 09:48 PM

Ask, if you don't, you'll never find out, even if it is just for a simple chit chat :)

Mark

09-16-2005, 09:54 PM

I hate speaking to people I don't know. It's especially awkward when I try to communicate with women. Most women want to hear platitudes and cheap compliments when they're approached by men. Then they'll give the "get lost, you a$$" look if it's not a convincing enough performance. Deep-thinking, intoverted guys like me especially have trouble engaging in this kind of trite, insipid small talk.

jellybean400

09-16-2005, 10:26 PM

So if I understood correctly, it is still a man's world.

If a woman pursues a man she's considered cheap, easy and in the case of OW/YM a cougar and if the man does the same he's considered romantic and the women love it.

So sad, so so sad :(

Well, in another one of the BOOKS i read ( :rolleyes: ) about meeting a man, it said to NEVER make the first move. Yes, show youre interested, but dont call him or ask him out. I wish i remembered where i put the book...i'd look up some quotes...

It also said not only dont call him, but DONT return his calls...make him call until he gets you in person on the line. I really dont get it. And make sure to date 3-4 people at once...and never say yes to a date from anyone that doesnt give you 3 days notice. Otherwise you seem desperate :(

I'm not a game-player...but SOME of the stuff in the book did make sense. I let my friend read it...a friend who doesnt let men "get away with anything" in a relationship... she agreed with all of it. Everyone keeps saying how much a man likes the "chase," and i guess i never realized that my whole life. I've seen it happen first-hand, now.

I just hate when we cant be who we are and leave it at that. I have asked men out and gotten dates from it, but nothing further. I do show i'm interested, but now i wait for them to make the move. I guess i'll see how that works for me. I always thought a man would be flattered to have a woman make the first move, especially if he was shy...

Oh, and i also never heard the term "cougar" until i visited this site.

LADave

09-17-2005, 12:43 AM

I always thought a man would be flattered to have a woman make the first move, especially if he was shy...

It would totally brighten my freakin' YEAR to have a woman make the first move! :D

For one thing, I'm a little shy. For another thing, I would be mega-mondo flattered! Finally, I'm a modern-day bohemian and take great satisfaction in seeing conventions and norms (like "man pursues") get turned upside-down! :)

rdhdnrs

09-17-2005, 02:05 AM

So Dave,
What was the woman who made the first move not, say, a model-type body, etc.? What if she is average or maybe a little heavy? Should she still go ahead and put it out there? That's my dilemma: there is a beautiful young man at work who I would like to be more than friends with, but I'm a little afraid.
Advice??

Loucine

09-17-2005, 09:13 AM

Well, in another one of the BOOKS i read ( :rolleyes: ) about meeting a man, it said to NEVER make the first move. Yes, show youre interested, but dont call him or ask him out. I wish i remembered where i put the book...i'd look up some quotes...

It also said not only dont call him, but DONT return his calls...make him call until he gets you in person on the line. I really dont get it. And make sure to date 3-4 people at once...and never say yes to a date from anyone that doesnt give you 3 days notice. Otherwise you seem desperate :(

I'm not a game-player...but SOME of the stuff in the book did make sense. I let my friend read it...a friend who doesnt let men "get away with anything" in a relationship... she agreed with all of it. Everyone keeps saying how much a man likes the "chase," and i guess i never realized that my whole life. I've seen it happen first-hand, now.

I just hate when we cant be who we are and leave it at that. I have asked men out and gotten dates from it, but nothing further. I do show i'm interested, but now i wait for them to make the move. I guess i'll see how that works for me. I always thought a man would be flattered to have a woman make the first move, especially if he was shy...

Oh, and i also never heard the term "cougar" until i visited this site.

Wow, I don't want to read that book.

Mainly women on this thread are defending the theory that men should pursue (and they're talking from experience) and mainly the men are saying that they love it when a woman makes the first move.

Some contradiction there and there are certainly good reasons for that, but I don't know what those reasons are.

I have noticed that men get turned off VERY easily. One wrong move and they are gone. While we, women, overlook sooooooo many odds and difficulties, many times find excuses for wrong behaviour etc... (not all of us, but many of us) it is a fact that cannot be denied. I've done that and I have seen most women around me do the same. I'm not saying it's good, but that's what usually happens. Now some women might jump up and say "NEVER!!", I believe you, but you are exceptions believe me.

WHY ?

and why is it that a woman who feels passionate about a man and knows that she wants him in her life should be called desperate? and why is being desperate considered negative ??

I remember a friend (a man) crying on my shoulder like a baby because he was in love with an unhappily married woman and she wasn't able to take a decision to leave her husband. Not only he cried on my shoulder several times but he begged her and knelt in front of her. She finally did leave her husband and they've been happy together for the past 20 years. He was certainly desperate,yes, because he loved her.

I'm not generalising or imposing theories, I'm just wondering and asking questions.

edit: of course as Goldie said, if both sides know what they want and make the move spontaniously, everything will be great, but it's not always the case. When two people like each other and some difficulties make their appearance, it is difficult for me to accept the fact that everything has to end because of "something" that I don't understand.

terminal

09-17-2005, 09:26 AM

ok speaking as a guy ...but i think that all these perceptions are changing...its all what society has conditioned and i dont know ...if someone likes someoneelse then one of them has to make the first or they will end up blaming everything under the sun except for the fact that maybe they did not have the nerve to make the first move.

now not being able to make the first move is very human...and we all procastrinate but i guess life is too short to wait it just gets over like that and we always regret the chances that we did not take more than the chances we took and and did not succeed

Raven Magdalene

09-17-2005, 10:24 AM

It would totally brighten my freakin' YEAR to have a woman make the first move!

Well Dave, I did and was shrugged off like lint. ;)

Just for clarification to serve my own curiosity, can someone explain to me that when one contacts a male why is it thought as being pursued/making the first move? Can't it just be for friendly conversation?

I find that when I have contacted a man I feel as though they are either getting the wrong notion (that I want their body) or they are embarrassed and keep tight lipped. No matter what they think, the response makes it very uncomfortable for someone who is just plain friendly & nice getting the cold shoulder or being treated as though I am seeking something that they personally perceive. Gee, I do have my big panties on (worldly) and don't expect some guy to get all hi & mighty just because I smile to them or make convo. Geez... :(

However, since this site on the most part about relationships it is said that the male species is still the pursuer but discovering that is all changing, however, I still have my reservations.

Perhaps it comes down to communication, eh? :rolleyes:

terminal

09-17-2005, 10:31 AM

thats because this stereotype has been perpetuated over the ages ...this is ridiculous...why can a contact by a woman mean only one thing....i think its social conditioning and stereotyping...

about the change in society...i guess its not coming fast enough....which is always true about social changes beacuse they have been built over centuries

Loucine

09-17-2005, 10:43 AM

Gypsyheart

09-17-2005, 10:58 AM

Another female piping in here.......

I'm with Special-K on this one. I'm a bold, assertive person in all aspects of life. Everytime I've made the first move, it's bitten me in the butt. Coincindence? maybe.

From my perspective, the typical male will "go along for the ride" in hopes of getting sex, even if they aren't truely "into" you. I've asked guys out before, and found out later (after a few dates) that they were just bored and went out hoping to get laid - but not really interested in getting to know me. I'm tired of "not knowing" where I stand with someone.

I just recently asked a guy out from a personal ad, and we had a wonderful time. Really! I thought he was into me from all inperson actions. Over the next week, I'd only get an email or two saying "I'm thinking of you".... no phone calls. Next Friday comes, he chats me and I asked him out again. We had another wonderful evening (no sex) and he even met some of my friends out. Next week, no calls and same abivalent behavior. I refuse to chase after him. The minute I stopped being the one that emailed first; he went silent. The interest level wasn't sufficient to motivated him into picking up the phone and pursuing. His loss....

Now adays, I'm tempering my approach. I also read that "he's not into you" book, and it changed me. If I am interested, I will flirt enough for the other to know the door is open. I might toss a statement out there like "gee, I'm kidfree saturday night with no plans".... to see if they bite.

But for me..... I'm done with opening the door, pulling them through - only to wonder if they are there out of true interest (or boredom). Like the book says "I deserve a f*cking phone call!! " :eek: ROFL

Lynn

09-17-2005, 11:17 AM

Man, I'm sorry that you had to go through that! :(

All I will add to that is that men also put themselves out on the line emotionally by being the pursuer. It works both ways. Somebody has to make the first move.

I don't know. I just think all this talk about safeguarding oneself...by staying in control of the situation, and not giving up their position of security is perhaps overanalyzing the inherently risky and unpredictable matters of the heart.

Sometimes, when you are dealing with your heart, you have to put yourself out there. Sure there's a risk, but isn't anything that means so much potentially worth the risk?

I agree with you No Excuses. But it's taken me this long to finally understand it. At least in this 'pursual' perspective. Our instinct for survival is prominent in just about everything we do.

I have a lifelong friend (known her since we were 13 thereabouts) who has always been the pursuer in every relationship she ever had. She set her sights on someone and went for him. I don't know how many times she felt the sting of rejection, but for her, it didn't last long. She'd be out and about trying to get over it and it wouldn't be long before someone else caught her eye.

Now, thanks to my relationship with Dereck, I'm learning to go ahead and pursue to my hearts content. But I still love being the pursued...

Lynn

09-17-2005, 11:26 AM

Bingo! Guys ARE clueless. lol
I mean if a woman is interested you guys dont see it. Well, the shy type anyhow. I guess i'm the same too. I think it truly depends of the person thing is we are not mind reader so how can we know if a person is shy or not? Its not written on their foreheads :confused:
Well, I guess we are going in circle! lol
It really depends of the type of guy and type of girl.
But I can see most guys DONT mind the woman doing the first move. I am not saying she has to want to be IN a relationship with the guy first but to show interest is OK.
Am I understanding it right?

I almost forgotten about this but I remember I liked this one guy for 3 years and he never EVER got a clue! I even called his house once to talk to him and he acted all confused.. :confused: Eventually let it go.... then a few years later a friend of mine ran into him and while talking of the 'good ol' days' mentioned my crush on him. He was floored, said he had no idea! Well, he tried to get in contact with me, but I was MARRIED!! But you know, I look back and think it was a good thing. Obviously he was abnormally dull-witted. LOL

Rob

09-17-2005, 01:42 PM

From my perspective, the typical male will "go along for the ride" in hopes of getting sex, even if they aren't truely "into" you. I've asked guys out before, and found out later (after a few dates) that they were just bored and went out hoping to get laid - but not really interested in getting to know me. I'm tired of "not knowing" where I stand with someone.

So what would be different if you did the flirting thing, made sure they knew you were interested, and they approached you. Who's to say they wouldn't still just be taking the opportunity to get laid? It wouldn't make any difference who approached who, it's just the wrong guy who's attention you're trying to get or who you're approaching.

I mean, has anyone given any thought to the fact that the guys who are very confident and good at 'chatting up' women are good at it for a reason? Experience of doing it a lot maybe? If you ask me, beware the over-confident male, he's over-confident for a reason a lot of the time.

Also, i think there might be a difference between generations here, or maybe even between the UK and the US. In the UK, women my age are not averse to approaching guys AT ALL. Also, there are many, many absolute slappers that would drop their knickers at any guy that approaches them, as long as they aren't too bad. The changes coming about because of women having more power and ability to do what they want are more prevalent amongst my, and other ym's, generations, compared to the ow on this board. Maybe that's where there is a difference, or is it that the UK and the US really are quite different?

jellybean400

09-17-2005, 02:32 PM

Kristin

09-17-2005, 06:26 PM

So what would be different if you did the flirting thing, made sure they knew you were interested, and they approached you. Who's to say they wouldn't still just be taking the opportunity to get laid? It wouldn't make any difference who approached who, it's just the wrong guy who's attention you're trying to get or who you're approaching.
That's just it, Rob. Those kind of guys won't put too much effort into pursuing a woman he just wants sex with. It's like burgulars - they go for the easiest houses and skip the ones with the locked doors that require any effort.

If a guy continues to pursue me even after I haven't had sex with him - and there are plenty of available women around who would - I'm going to be pretty confident that he's interested in more than just sex.

If a shy guy really wants something, he's just going to have to step up to the plate - that's what Jeremy did with me. He never approached women before me - but he felt I was worth it. But I never would have thought to approach him, because he was so much younger than me. And yes, when he first approached, I did assume he was a player - and he was a little c*cky due to the liquid courage he needed to approach me. LOL! But he was persistant, so I knew it was more than just getting laid with him.

But, (we were talking about this thread last night) he did remind me that after he had done a bit of pursuing, it was kinda like, "Well, now I got her, what do I do with her?" LOL! So I had to take the lead to take it to the next level. But I think that happens in most situations - the woman determines that he has honest intentions and allows it to go to the next level.

But what are we talking about in being the "pursuer?" Women very often initiate contact with men to let them know they are interested. If you can't tell when a woman is into you and wants you to ask her out, ya gotta be pretty socially inept. So what exactly do guys want us to do?

Anyhow, to answer Faith's real question, I would say to flirt with the guy like IRL. If he's too dense to figure it out, you prolly don't wanna date him anyhow. (kidding) :p Anyhow, I don't think any guys would mind, per se, but you could be walking into a mine field.

Faith47

09-17-2005, 06:44 PM

I really liked Rob and Terminal answers. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Now, I agree that if a woman makes the first move there is more chances the guy might just want to get lay. BUT, because a guy makes the first move doesnt mean he doesnt want just to get lay either. Rob said to be careful of those overly confident guys that approach us. And Rob I TOTALLY agree with you. I have first hand experience with this.
And as Terminal said, about the stereotype is very true as well.
Soooo, I think that either way you can find someone genuine or not genuine, you need to learn to know the person, learn to know his real intentions.
And also, who says that any relationship is assured whether you made it to strike 3? Is it strike 3? huh...you get what I mean anyway lol...whether you made it to strike 3 after quite awhile it will last?
BUT, I'm thinking of you Kristin when I say that, you got to get to know the guy, be friends first, if there is chemistry there, take your time to see what he wants from you. Than decide what you want to do.
I must say I personnally prefer that a guy makes the first move. I really feel that way. But here and there maybe sometimes I might like to take a chance.
Thanks everyone!
:)

intime

09-18-2005, 01:47 PM

I have made the first move with men, but with my YM he winked at me every week in class (I guess that's the first move). I pursued it after the semester was over. I really believe that it SHOULD be ok for women to show interest, but now I've found that when men do the chasing, calling, anything like that, I FEEL in control because he WANTS me. Then I lay back. When I pursue, I end up going round in circles.

kathyw

09-18-2005, 02:22 PM

Most guys, regardless if they admit it or not, want to be the pursuer and not the pursued...especially in a OW/YM relationship...if the woman is the pursuer I have seen time and time again where it ends up not working out...not to mention, I feel that it makes the woman look likes she's desperate...even if she's not...so I will continue to stand by my feeling on this err....well probably forever I guess...showing interest and making the first move are two totally different things...showing interest = ok but making the first move...well, I've never made the first move...and can't foresee that ever changing...if they want to get to know you...they'll break through whatever barrier they must in order to reach you...if not, then they aren't worth it anyway...that's my take on it...for what it's worth. :)

Faith47

09-18-2005, 05:38 PM

Mark

09-18-2005, 05:55 PM

Faith47

09-19-2005, 08:47 AM

Wrong. It's a burden to be the pursuer. Some guys like it, but many like myself hate it. There's nothing more nervewracking than approaching a woman you've never spoken to before, not even playing a saxophone solo on stage in front of a 100 or more people.

Well well Mark...you came out of your shell a bit :D
Thanks for sharing your point of view on this.
:cool:

Loucine

09-19-2005, 09:23 AM

Yep, that's how it works with me. I'm very spontaneous, I flirt, but if she doesn't respond the first time she's history. A good match should be effortless. If she plays games, mind games, presumes to read my mind, etc., she's history. If she has a growl in her voice (, or expects me to cater to her, or is a gold-digger, or operates on the basis that as the man it's my job to "try" and please her, she's history.

Well you see the day we decide to be as picky as you are, you will have the choice between becoming gay or monks.

Geeees, all the BS that we put up with and still forgive you :rolleyes:

Raven Magdalene

09-19-2005, 09:35 AM

Ditto.

I really think we need to be like this Loucine...but what a lonely world that would be, eh?

Well you see the day we decide to be as picky as you are, you will have the choice between becoming gay or monks.

Geeees, all the BS that we put up with and still forgive you :rolleyes:

kathyw

09-19-2005, 09:43 AM

Ditto.

I really think we need to be like this Loucine...but what a lonely world that would be, eh?

LMAO...sure would be Raven. :D :)

Me thinks this is being a little bit TOOO picky...and I know lots of people who proclaim they are "not going to settle" and whom also claim to be "picky picky" and they are a lonely lot indeed. :rolleyes:

Kristin

09-19-2005, 11:24 AM

But in the meanwhile, you got to live, eat and have sex. Will I make the first move on a pretty woman for sex? You bet

And this is why women as a majority will never start making the first real move.

There are too many guys out there that will have sex with you without any intention of it going further. They KNOW that there is no relationship there, but he'll still have sex with her, letting her believe that there may be a chance. But he won't work really hard to woo a woman just for sex. He will, however, work hard for a woman who he is really interested in for a relationship.

And while there are many women are out there looking just for sex, by and large the majority of women would rather not be used for sex only.

And listening to the guys I know - of all ages - the predominant sentiment is that, while guys would love to have to not be the ones in the hot seat all of the time, women who hit on them are still mostly viewed as desperate or easy - except in rare instances where he was actually interested in her already.

Sorry guys, you can thank the sexual behavior & attitudes of your own gender for why women won't suddenly start asking men out all of the time.

Dolphin1974

09-19-2005, 11:31 AM

star

09-19-2005, 11:38 AM

Sorry guys, you can thank the sexual behavior & attitudes of your own gender for why women won't suddenly start asking men out all of the time.

You hit the nail on the head Kristin! This also goes hand in hand with guys having many sexual partners and high fiving each other and calling each other "studs" and "pimps" with a positive intonation, when a woman who acts in the same manner is called by those very same men a "sl*t or a "wh*re" in a derogatory manner. Then they complain that they're not getting enough sex and that they have to work too hard to get a woman in bed! We women are taught to control our sexual desires in order to avoid being labeled by these kind of men! As Kristin put it so well, you can thank your own gender for not only not getting asked out by women, but also for not always getting sex as easily and frequently as you would like.

Guys, get rid of the double standards, and everyone will be a lot happier and yall will get alot more sex! :D

kathyw

09-19-2005, 12:19 PM

And this is why women as a majority will never start making the first real move.

There are too many guys out there that will have sex with you without any intention of it going further. They KNOW that there is no relationship there, but he'll still have sex with her, letting her believe that there may be a chance. But he won't work really hard to woo a woman just for sex. He will, however, work hard for a woman who he is really interested in for a relationship.

And while there are many women are out there looking just for sex, by and large the majority of women would rather not be used for sex only.

And listening to the guys I know - of all ages - the predominant sentiment is that, while guys would love to have to not be the ones in the hot seat all of the time, women who hit on them are still mostly viewed as desperate or easy - except in rare instances where he was actually interested in her already.

Sorry guys, you can thank the sexual behavior & attitudes of your own gender for why women won't suddenly start asking men out all of the time.

BINGO!! I don't know why they don't get it...it's beyond my comprehension...I think it's because many guys don't look at sex as an emotional attachment...and many (well most) women do...not sure what it is...but I will tell ya, I have seen VERY FEW relationships work out in the long run when the woman pursued the guy...sure maybe for a few dates or a one night stand...the double standards are always going to be there...those aren't going away anytime soon....in the meantime, let's get real here...guys know this...anything worth having is harder to get...I don't care what anyone says...it's the truth by my standards...and by the majority of other women's stardards as well....NOTE: I didn't say by ALL women's standards, obviously their is an exception to every rule...however, speaking in general...that's the way it is...look around people...and please be honest with yourself...this is how the world is....time to WAKE UP!

kathyw

09-19-2005, 12:34 PM

I'm not interested in statistics. I only want ONE woman, and I have more that I can handle. I just pick the one that smells the best :)

Some of you ladies (following my post) sound like bitter divorcées. Not everything is a Gender War. You sound angry, men pick up on that, and you lose the big prize. And if they DO hit on you, then it's just as you described . . .

LMAO...I certainly hope you're not referring to me here...cos number 1) I'm not bitter and number 2) I have a boy friend and have been in only 3 long term relationships in my entire life...all with good guys whom pursued ME...so not sure who you are throwing comments at here...but hopefully you were not referring to me. Thanks.

Kristin

09-19-2005, 12:45 PM

LOL! Umm...OK. But I'm not a bitter divorcee at all (my husband and I split on good terms) and I'm happily involved with my bf (who pursued me.) :rolleyes:

I never said it was an "us against them" thing. I just stated a fact - which you confirmed in your post. A man will go out with a woman just for sex. Most women don't want that, so they will wait until a guy has enough initiative to ask them out, rather than going after him, because it generally means that they want more than just sex. We just never know, when we ask a guy out, if he says yes because he really likes us or just to get sex.

We KNOW how hard it is for you guys to ask us out. That is how we can be pretty certain that you must truly be interested in us, for more than sex, to get up the courage to do it AND to keep pursuing us.

kathyw

09-19-2005, 12:49 PM

Faith47

09-19-2005, 01:12 PM

Mark, 99% of women are very self concious about themselves. This a little known fact to most men. It shouldnt' be nervewracking because you're actually doing them a favor by hitting on them because most of them are attention seekers. So go for it. Good luck.

And I'm SURE you are not an attention seeker eh Passionnate?
:rolleyes:

Loucine

09-19-2005, 01:13 PM

This thread made me realise something, in France it is VERY COMMON that women make the first move and even beyond the first move. Men TOTALLY respect the women who do that. I thought about my own love affairs in France and realised that the 2 French boyfriends and 2 French husbands that I've had, I'm the one who made the first move. Not only they appreciated it but they respected me and still do. I look at all the happy couples around me and they're the same, it is the woman who made the first move. Damn !! I hadn't even thought about it.

Just a few weeks ago I was in a train heading to the South of France and I saw the most beautiful young man travelling alone. When we changed at Montpellier and took a second train he was in that one too and there was an empty seat next to him. So I took it and with a smile I said "we meet again". He was delighted, we chatted the whole way and he gave me his e-mail. Hell !! I should e-mail him !!!

And yes Cabriolet, I am a bitter divorcée and it's been 6 years that I'm divorced, 3 years before that unsatisfied sexually with my husband, so a total of 9 years that I haven't even been kissed leave alone loved. Why ? Because I'm too busy raising my son, making a living and starting a new and exciting career, and I cannot allow just anyone into my life and I simply haven't had the TIME to meet the right person. Basically all I have met so far are some selfish arses who "made the first move".

So this is it, I should be going out more in lovely Paris and continue to make the first move.

Faith47

09-19-2005, 01:19 PM

Faith47

09-19-2005, 01:21 PM

I've seen the complete opposite. Most of those cases go to marriage and kids and happily ever after.

Then how do you explain all messages in my mailbox asking me for sex constantly?

bitter? oh come on, no none of these women are bitter! never!
Of course i am, it's human nature. Very FEW people dont like attention. And before you get annoyed any further, how do you know you're not in that 1%?

My dear...I couldnt care less what your opinion of me is.

Kristin

09-19-2005, 01:26 PM

I've never pursued a woman, I wait for them to make the first move to be sure they are really attracted to me. That ensures a better match, because I suck at picking women. I know that they often seek no more that affection, which I give away freely, and I do not always follow up with sex. A one-night-stand is not worth dying for.
One man's admission does not constitute a rule. Some men will hit for sex, some not. Your choice to use the former to establish your general rule says more about you than men in general.
Men like you are the exception, not the rule.

And it was a LOT more than one man who have told me this, so your theory that it says more about me has no basis.

Most men will wait for some kind of a sign that she's interested. But then they pick it up from there. You aren't unusual that way.

I don't have a negative attitude about men. I love men. I think they are facinating and wonderful creatures. I can't live without one in my life.

But you said yourself that you will hit on a pretty woman for sex, so I don't get where your argument is coming from.

I'm just realistic.

Kristin

09-19-2005, 01:32 PM