Why Men Love and Hate Women in Equal Measure

(Although all you guys seem to have healthy relationships but when I was in one there was this 'tug, hug, tug, hug', withdrawal or emotional distancing, etc. from the guy..I might be the only odd ball here in this regard...but in case I am not then this might be of interest...and only to Share.)

By Jed Diamond

I see more and more midlife males who go from "Mr. Nice Guy" to the "Husband From Hell," seemingly overnight. It was only after years of my own denial that my wife Carlin finally helped me see the change in myself.

Here's how Carlin described her experiences in a letter she wrote to my therapist shortly after I began counseling: "What troubles me most about Jed are his rapid mood changes. He's angry, accusing, argumentative and blaming one moment, and the next moment he is buying me flowers and cards, and leaving me loving notes. He'll change in an hour from looking daggers at me to being all smiles and enthusiasm."

I recognized my shifts in mood, but they seemed justified to me: "Who wouldn't get pissed when you treat me the way you do?" In my mind, it seemed that everyone who was close to me, especially my wife, was going out of their way to irritate me. However, deep inside, I was confused and frightened that I could feel intense love followed by intense rage, with very little provocation.

At times, I felt crazy. At other times, I just felt frustrated with my wife and my life. I always felt very strange. Was I the only guy who felt this way? I thought I was until I read a book by anthropologist David Gilmore called Misogyny: The Male Malady (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2001). Gilmore says, "Men love and hate women simultaneously and in equal measure." He goes on to point out that "most men need women desperately, and most men reject this driving need as both unworthy and dangerous."

Gilmore explores cultures from Western Europe to the Middle East, from the jungles of South America to the remote uplands of New Guinea, from preliterate tribal peoples to modern Americans. He looks at ancient and modern cultures and all those in between. He finds that in all places and in all times, there has been a tendency for men to fear and hate women.

Obviously, this isn't the case with all men. Though this ambivalence is played out in all societies, individual men differ in the degree to which it affects us. For some of us, the fear and rage are extreme. For others, we control it well and it seeps out only at times of change and stress.

Gilmore concludes that this "love/hate" dynamic is rooted in men's unique dependency on women. He points out that in most cultures, men depend upon their mothers and later, their wives for food preparation, domestic care, emotional support and nurturing. He also reminds us that in all cultures and in all times, men are dependent on women to mate with them, carry a child within her body, give birth to the baby, and feed and care for the child until he or she is able to live independently. Later in life, we depend on our wives for continuity.

I've found that the more dependent we are on women, the more our neediness generates love and hate. We love them for what they can give us, but are also frightened at the degree of our dependency. I remember, during a particularly stressful time of my life, having an intense desire to crawl up into my wife's arms and wanting to have her hold me forever. Even the thought was terrifying. I felt that if I ever gave into the temptation, I would never leave again. I would regress to the level of an infant and forfeit my manhood forever.

As we get older and need more assurance, love and support, we also resent the people we are dependent upon to meet our needs. Most women, I have found, have multiple friends and relatives to whom they turn to meet their needs for security, love and esteem. Men often have only one person we turn to -- our wives or partners. Under those circumstances, we have a tendency to both love them and lash out at them.

The solution, I believe, is for us guys to have more intimate connections in our lives. It's the reason I have been in a men's group for over 26 years.

_________________

As we get older and need more assurance, love and support, we also resent the people we are dependent upon to meet our needs. Most women, I have found, have multiple friends and relatives to whom they turn to meet their needs for security, love and esteem. Men often have only one person we turn to -- our wives or partners. Under those circumstances, we have a tendency to both love them and lash out at them.

The solution, I believe, is for us guys to have more intimate connections in our lives. It's the reason I have been in a men's group for over 26 years

Why don't men GET that?

In my experience, I've always been the one with lots of friends and being socially interactive while my partner depended on me for everything. It's true even in my current long distance relationship where that is techically impossible.

I cannot be everything to one person, it's too stressful and suffocating and I really wish my current boyfriend would learn to understand that I need for him to have a life of his own in addition to our life together.

Even as dependant on me that my children are, they still have school and recreational activities and a social life and I don't feel completely stifled by their neediness.

That was an interesting article, thanks for sharing.

I remember, during a particularly stressful time of my life, having an intense desire to crawl up into my wife's arms and wanting to have her hold me forever. Even the thought was terrifying. I felt that if I ever gave into the temptation, I would never leave again. I would regress to the level of an infant and forfeit my manhood forever.

It is particularly sad that any man has such a negative reaction to the thought of being comforted by his partner. Everyone should be able to take emotional nourishment from their partner. The fact that so many men do feel diminished when they depend on a woman for anything is ridiculously dysfunctional.

Part of the problem is that men are taught to be anti-women - they fear becoming less manly through certain actions and try to be not-us at ALL costs. It is such a horrible thing to perpetrate on men to bring them up to think this way. It makes them needlessly insecure and pits them against us.

Nowadays though, I think more young men are able to have real friendships with each other. There is less hiding and ego-protection going on, less posing and stoicism for fear of showing any vulnerability. But for sure, the majority of men are still probably all alone in a little shell of learned social restriction.

A book that recently came out that I heard about (but have not read) was about a woman who posed as a man and experienced firsthand some of the stifling attitudes that she was expected to keep to when she was a "guy." What a whole lot of aliveness is just crushed out of men from childhood onward. Very sad.

Goldie, I agree that a BIG part of the problem is that many men are bred from a young age to regard women as inferior, especially those who grow up seeing their fathers treating their mothers poorly.

Guys like the author of that article probably don't need obscure `men's groups' to give their emotions a sense of legitimacy.......they need a change of attitude.....to stop looking at the women in their lives as inferior, illegitimate sources of emotional support.

I don't particularly sympathise with the author. He claims ```Most women, I have found, have multiple friends and relatives to whom they turn to meet their needs for security, love and esteem. Men often have only one person we turn to -- our wives or partners. Under those circumstances, we have a tendency to both love them and lash out at them. '''

Yet men who regard women as inferior.....and who regard the qualities which define us as women as inferior traits....create their own sense of emotional isolation. They resent needing women as a source of emotional support, because that need conflicts with his sense of `manly superiority'. So in rejecting emotional support from women, they only have `manly men' to turn to....Such men create isolation in their lives because of their own attitudes.

Of course some men choose to become gay or join hippy mens groups, where at least the emotional support they recieve is from `superior men', not `inferior women'. I shake my head at the extreme measures some men take to avoid loving women.

Gilmore says, "Men love and hate women simultaneously and in equal measure."
And the opposite is not also true? Many women love men as individuals but hate the male sex for the supposed "advantages" men have in society.

And the opposite is not also true? Many women love men as individuals but hate the male sex for the supposed "advantages" men have in society.


That's a good point, and very true. But I think the article is referring to both loving and hating the individual woman.

Goldie, I agree that a BIG part of the problem is that many men are bred from a young age to regard women as inferior, especially those who grow up seeing their fathers treating their mothers poorly.

Guys like the author of that article probably don't need obscure `men's groups' to give their emotions a sense of legitimacy.......they need a change of attitude.....to stop looking at the women in their lives as inferior, illegitimate sources of emotional support.



That's not how I read what Goldie said at all... I read it more as "men are brought up not to be feminine", rather than men being brought up to 'hate' women. :confused: I think this is the key. Men are 'still' expected to be strong and 'manly'. We're not expect to break down into tears, we're supposed to suck it all in. We're supposed to be able to deal with things ourselves, without leaning on people for support. How many guys mothers used the line "big boys don't cry" when you were a kid and you were upset? Now, if a female is saying that, then it can't all be about men feeling superior, can it.

That's what I thought the writer of that article was getting at... that it was hard for him because he felt like he had to lean on his partner, but at the same time he felt like he was losing his manliness and becomming less of one at the same time. And that led to him resenting her for making him feel that way... supposedly.

Whilst it's great that the roles of men and women are slowly becomming more and more equal, and women are being treated better, you have to also understand that it can be hard for men because we're losing the sense of what a man traditionally is. You don't just lose something that is so ingrained in society for hundreds and hundreds of years just like that without a hint of confusion. Also, it's much easier to adapt to something when you're gaining from it than when you feel like you're losing something.

I sort of wish the writer has been more honest and titled the piece: "Why I Love and Hate Women-I-Have-Loved in Equal Measure".

That's what I thought the writer of that article was getting at... that it was hard for him because he felt like he had to lean on his partner, but at the same time he felt like he was losing his manliness and becomming less of one at the same time. And that led to him resenting her for making him feel that way... supposedly.

Rob women have been going through this process of re-inventing their gender roles too. How do you explain the fact that in author's story, the woman he loves feels no resentment nor suffers any of these big swings in her feelings towards her partner due to HER role changes?

How do you explain the way men reject and resist healthy, empowering `feminine traits' such as emotional availablity, and yet women embrace their masculine sides with gusto?

Believe me, little girls have their gender stereotypes reinforced just as much as little boys. We are supposed to look pretty and be seen and not heard; we are just as confused as you guys are, and its just as hard for us to change.

And yet we grow up, we marry poor guys instead of doctors, we earn our own living, fix our own cars, carry our own groceries and choose assertiveness over feminine coquettishness.

And we come home and we LOVE our men, if they let us, and we don't turn away because we spend each and every day as a half man /half woman thing who nurtures and yet competes like a man.

I can see your points Rob, and I think of you as a good man.....how does one explain men resisting feminine traits, whilst women embracing their masculine traits? if its not based on a sense that feminine traits are inferior, what is it?

I don't think women are adapting 100% well either. It's a huge shift that has happened in the last 50 years or so. Huge.

Women are having trouble dealing with a lot of things now too -- the whole work/family balance is not a super-simple shift in thinking for many of us.

As well, we are all told now that we can have it all, and many women seem to be unable and unwilling to accept less than perfection in a partner. Which is ludicrous.

Well, it's like I said... women are gaining, men are losing. Women are getting more freedom, more choice, etc, etc... men are losing it, or perceiving that we're losing it.

Also, when you have women saying this:

"how do i say the next part, make sure that you dont loose you manliness part..."

which funnily enough comes from a thread on this website from today, I think it sort of illustrates what I was getting at.

Like I said, this idea of 'manliness' is still perpetuated by both men AND women. I don't think it's quite the same for women. Women have fought for what they're getting, therefore it's like gaining. To men, the perception is they're losing what they have, and their role is uncertain. It'll take generations is all I'm saying... I think you can see the changes, and couldn't that be one reason why ym and ow find themselves attracted to each other?

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, I need to go to bed!

I want to point out too...

When I say it's like men are losing something, I mean 'feel' like we're losing something. Personally, I'm a big girl, and I don't care, and I'm glad that the world is more accepting of it than it would have been 50 years ago.

Yes, I can agree with much of what you're saying Rob..thanks for explaining it too....I like your perspective on things.

I think where I'm still a little vague is how all this relates specifically to men rejecting (resenting?) emotional initmacy with their partners.

I understand not wanting to cry, not wanting to be seen as weak and foolish. But to women, emotional intimacy is rarely about tears and general messiness......mostly what we do..and want from our partners, revolves around having normal `emotionally honest and supportive conversations'.... mutual listening and hearing one another.....that kind of thing. The kind of things that build closeness, great relationships, and emotional health.

I can understand the part about crying seeming weak to men, but why is general emotional closeness to a woman seen as weak?

... why is general emotional closeness to a woman seen as weak?

Can I give my opinion while we're waiting for Rob to answer? The men that I have seen that feel this way, IMO, feel that being in love and being vulnerable and being open to possible hurt or rejection is all proof that they ARE weak. I think the depth of their feelings and the fear of how their feelings can be used against them makes them hide their emotions.

Can I give my opinion while we're waiting for Rob to answer? The men that I have seen that feel this way, IMO, feel that being in love and being vulnerable and being open to possible hurt or rejection is all proof that they ARE weak. I think the depth of their feelings and the fear of how their feelings can be used against them makes them hide their emotions.

Took the words out of my mouth! ;)

Wow, thank you, THIS is a thread that I really need to follow. I realise that the men who loved me and didn't want to let go were strong, older men who came into my life when I was weak and vulnarable. They protected me and they still do.

Whenever I felt strong and became attracted to a man on an eqaul level or slighly weaker than I am, I heard comments from them such as "you terrify me" or from well-wishing friends comments such as "Aline, you castrate them".

hmmmmmm :confused:

ps: Rob, I just love reading your posts, you give me hope as always.

Ok, but assuming a guy is in a great marriage and he's chosen a good woman, there really isn't much risk of him saying `I love you' or generally discussing his feelings about an issue to his wife, and she will reject or hurt him. Pretty minimal risks there. Maybe in the dating scene there are high risks of rejection (where oddly guys are highly expressive), but not in a stable, healthy marriage.

If guys are really that sentive to hurt, why do they embrace fighting and hanging around with their sarcastic mates? Why is it ` cool' to be risk being hurt via being beaten up and humilated by their buddlies, and yet just saying `I love you' is regarded as ` too frightening'???? Hmmm?

I think the reason is that guys aren't actually all that `scared' to risk being seen as weak, if they think the payoff is worth it. Unfortuneately, they don't regard the esteem of women to be an worthy `payoff'.....but the esteem of other men is worth it...worth fighting for, worth enduring unkind words and humiliation.

"...you castrate them".

See...this is what I find mystifying. (I'm going to borrow your phrase Aline, this has nothing to do with you.)

One thing that is NOT happening is castration. And it sure isn't WE who are "doing" it. The phrase is a histrionic dramatization worthy of the biggest drama queen on the planet. What is it about "manhood" that men find so delicate? The SLIGHTEST false move and they have lost it? What a ridiculous attitude.

Men are men. Nothing we do, nothing they do, is going to change that. The insinuation that we are "emasculating" somebody by not treating them like they are "manly" is sheer manipulation. It is a hissy fit born of insecurity and a wish to control OUR behavior.

That quote earlier about being sure we allow someone to remain manly made me cringe too. "Manhood" is just not that losable! When people refer to men's fragile egos, this is what they're talking about. This culture needs to look into why men feel so threatened by women and change that, it is crippling. Meanwhile there's no point in continuing to allow them to act like big babies about this.

This has been a major issue and I will not reduce myself so I can make some guy comfortable in his skin. It took me years to be comfortable in mine, to survive & thrive and YET I can still cry, laugh & embrace. It is indeed crippling for men and I think frustrating for them as well.

I didn't read the book but I do believe most of what was written was from the standpoint of the columnist and the one regarding women having group of friends to share their emotions. What the f...? That is absurd. However, I want to reiterate I didn't read the book he refers and might be good read for those of us who are seeking.

Another thing, we need to look at the way our 'brains are wired'. Women are able to zoom left to right in a heartbeat and men...well. This is a scientific fact *need to find that article* but that is why we can multi task so well vs. guys.

I don't know the answer but I don't have the patience to baby or caress their egos so they 'can get it'. Notice women generally are the ones who study relationship stuff and guys simply watch a football match? Tell me, how does that improve the relationship? Maybe women need to be just as the players...instead of kissing & embracing, just slap them on the butt with a towel. :D


See...this is what I find mystifying. (I'm going to borrow your phrase Aline, this has nothing to do with you.)

One thing that is NOT happening is castration. And it sure isn't WE who are "doing" it. The phrase is a histrionic dramatization worthy of the biggest drama queen on the planet. What is it about "manhood" that men find so delicate? The SLIGHTEST false move and they have lost it? What a ridiculous attitude.

Men are men. Nothing we do, nothing they do, is going to change that. The insinuation that we are "emasculating" somebody by not treating them like they are "manly" is sheer manipulation. It is a hissy fit born of insecurity and a wish to control OUR behavior.

That quote earlier about being sure we allow someone to remain manly made me cringe too. "Manhood" is just not that losable! When people refer to men's fragile egos, this is what they're talking about. This culture needs to look into why men feel so threatened by women and change that, it is crippling. Meanwhile there's no point in continuing to allow them to act like big babies about this.

The title of the thread is "Why Men Love and Hate Women In Equal Measure" but it sure sounds to me like what we're really talking about is "Why Women Love and Hate Men in Equal Measure"! ;)

Isn't it easier to just find a guy that you like than to be so angry at the one you're with or the one's that haven't been what you wanted?

I totally agree with you Goldie, but now I'm worried. You see, the problem is, let's consider 10 men and 10 women. For a single mum in her early 40-s, you can take out the men our age because they're running after young women. So that leaves us with 4. Among the younger men interested in older women, many have a male ego issue, so take another 3 out, that leaves us with one. 10 women for 1 man. WOW !! chances of finding a good man are becoming slimmer and slimmer. :eek:

Bodhi-Tree,
There are a few of us,that still remain.




The Shadow

Bodhi-Tree,
There are a few of us,that still remain.




The Shadow

Wha' where, how, when,what, where are they ??!!??

Bodhi-Tree,
Good points,well said.May I say,"That there are a few of us good YM's,that still remain."
As a YM,Im not afraid,to show my emotions.I for one,do not see it as a weakness.Yes men(of all ages)do cry,and do show emotions.Tho at times we,not show them,as well we should.As Raven Magdalene said.."I can still cry,laugh and embrace".It's completely healty to show emotions,for women or men alike.Emotions are way to show xpressions.
As there are tears of joy,and tears of pain.Laughter also can be taken both way as-well,in showing happyness or pain.Of course there many many more emotions,than just those two.



The Shadow

I think a lot of women are expecting way, way, way too much...

The world has worked in a certain way for hundreds and hundreds (thousands even) of years. In that time social behaviour and gender roles have been formed that have benefited men more than women. Sure, that's not right... but given that that's the way it has been for so, so long, isn't it a bit optimistic to think that everything can change and men and women be equal within a relatively short amount of time? We've seen only a few generations in which it's been more accepted to think that men and women are equal. As each generation passes, the idea that women aren't equal in many ways will dissipate. But right now there's still socially accepted ideas of the roles of men and women being passed down. I think you can see the difference between my parents generation and mine anyway. And my gf's mum thinks that she should find herself someone that can look after her financially!

You can't just say men and women are equal, men are allowed to show feelings, women should have as much of an opportunity to take high paying jobs, etc, JUST like that and expect everyone to just get on with it, it ain't gonna happen. This is societal and cultural change we're talking about, it's more difficult and long-term than that.

Yep, that's called a transition period and that's why I try to be more open about it. I really, really think that the overall attitude has changed and there are some minor difficulties that people make a HUGE deal about.

But Goldie is right when she says "The SLIGHTEST false move and they have lost it?"

I always feel like I'm stepping on a cat's tail and hearing a loud "rrrrriiiiaaaaaaooouuuuu". Christ !!!! what did I say ? how did I hurt his ego again ??? :eek:

Aline...you're funny. :D

But ya know...that's the thing. Once a woman is educated enough about herself, others, and relationships not to find the stereotypical male of any interest, it does narrow her choices. You really can't go backward...if the available men are fewer because of what we find acceptable, then...that's just the way it is. Because a lot of women won't accept that, they will try having relationships with men who just end up frustrating them (it may be that it works vice versa too, but I'm just speaking from the place of being a woman whose acceptable choices of partner are in the smaller pool of non-typical males).

So if we have a choice of 5 guys and 3 we know we have to compromise ourselves for, well...then we only have 2 to pick from. Nothing we can do but keep choosing what works for us, because trying those other 3 could be a huge waste of time. There's not much point in wishing it otherwise...

But see...there may be fewer of the "good" ones out there, but most of us are only looking for ONE. I have one! He does NOT watch football. He doesn't watch any sport, in fact we don't watch TV. He has very little in common with mainstream guys as far as his interests. He's more of a "geek" as he likes to call himself. He writes software, knows computers inside and out, plays and writes music (bass, synths, whatever), reads a ton, is a fabulous communicator in writing and speaking, and on and on. We don't have the usual list of "Mars/Venus" issues because we just don't operate that way.

In my life, I have gotten along best with men who are more like ME overall. Some people think men and women have to be different, or yin-yang, but there are other ways to do things. I wouldn't have been happy with someone who needed me to play ultra-feminine roles or looked down on me in any way because I am female. With my honey I can BE MYSELF and he can be HIMSELF, I don't lay gender expectations on him. I don't need him to "be manly," he IS a man, he is himself, however he wants to express that.

Wha' where, how, when,what, where are they ??!!??

Well.....you asked??I have offen asked myself about women as-well.Yes,there are a few age-gap couples here in my hometown.
Tho,here its more the norm to see the OM-YW relationship,than OW-YM relationship.

The Shadow

LOL Goldie, I said 1 man for 10 women. I also need only one :D

But anyway, men who watch football don't bother me at all, actually I have become a rugby fan myself. My ex-husband never missed a game so I either went out with friends or went in the other room and read. Funny though because I was the young one and he was older and he loved going to nightclubs and I didn't. But we had lots of fun, travelled, socialised, went out a lot ,etc....

The problem was that he was incharge financially. He paid the rent and all the bills because he WANTED to. That was his macho side and until this day he will get angry if I even try to pay at the restaurant or even for a beer. He did everything to keep it that way and I ended up feeling like a trophy wife and I hated it.

I couldn't care less if a guy pays for everything, if that makes him happy, as long as I earn a good enough living to be able to buy my plane ticket when I want to visit an old friend or buy my own software, books and records, goceries a new couch or whatever.

Now I have picked up with my career (ironically I work with my ex-husband) and I will never, ever again allow myself to be trapped. I have to have the personal financial security in order to able to get out if I want to and plus, it feels so much better to be doing something useful to society rather than just being helpful and there for one person, the husband.

But I'm surrounded by so many men who are absolutely fantastic but totally lose it if I come out strong or contradict them. So many times I just let slide and don't even argue. Perhaps it's my fear of conflict or am I being submissive? If I don't do that I hear the "you terrify me" and the "you're castrating them" comments.

I VERY often let my ex-husband take credit for everything that we do and I NEVER contradict him in public. I have done it once and he just got up and left and I had to leave with him, I could not even hope to stay behind. So now I just don't say anything or just discretely go out and smoke a cigarette in another room and wait till it passes.

When we're alone however, he consults me and asks for my opinion on everything. We really share the work and take decisions together. But in public it's "I" and almost never "we".

The point is and as Rob said, things just don't change overnight. I don't know why I should create conflicts about small details. I have my place in society, I keep my own home, I have a fascinating job, why should small details about the male ego bother me that much ?

And plus there are so many typical feminine things that bother men alot. But also minor details that they should learn how to put up with untill we eventually understand and change. We are so different from our parents and our children will be different from us. But for now, this is what we have, we might as well be happy with it or age alone and THAT I would really hate to. But now I keep stepping on the cat's tail when it comes to relationships :o

Ya know.. I read that article and the first thing that came to mind was.. that's a load of crap. We tend to show our true feelings and emotions to those we are closest to. If one of my clients' pisses me off, I smile and nod, then call my bf on my way home from the meeting and b*tch about them the whole ride home.

Maybe its a totally different thing, maybe not. But when I am in a bad mood I can easily hide it, but I find getting it outta my system to be a better choice. And while it may seem I am being mean, I am just letting my emotions run their course with the one person I feel the most comfortable. Does that make sense? I am not saying I act like I hate him, I tell him in advance I am in a bad mood and he does what he can to make it better. And this also works in reverse, when he is having a bad day.

This also is the case when I am happy cause something good happens. So there's a balance of up and downs and showing of pure emotions. I don't think any of it stems from his fear of me at all. He loves me, I love him... we make allowances for bad moods and move on.

This is an absolutely FASCINATING thread, and I agree with each of you!

This is an eye-opener for me though, because "Jed" sounds exactly like my Robin, so it gives me a lot of insight into Robin's feelings that he has and doesn't know why he has them...in fact, I can't wait to tell him about this. There is something else though...I will also modify my behavior to be more sensitive to his plight, now that I'm aware of it. I'm not going to put him down for it or feel like I'm walking on eggshells or going out of my way, rather it's a form of sensitivity and respect I want to give him BECAUSE he's a "manly man". He can't help it, that's who he is, and ultimately, who I'm in love with.

The thing that gets me is, I can act like Jed too! I can have horrific mood swings, be terrified of giving myself over to love completely for fear of being hurt, and be fearful of depending too much on Robin as well. We BOTH have these issues, apparently, and need to be mindful of the reasons behind them. Do we want to give up on the relationship and find someone "easier" to be with? No, we'd rather work out our issues and solve them, so we can be completely comfortable and happy in our love, which we believe is so special it's worth the work.

I agree with Rob, that men don't know WHAT is expected of them anymore. Do they pay for dinner or not? Do they open doors or not? If they work more than the wife, are they still expected to do equal amounts of child care and housework? Women are fast and furious embracing their masculine side, which must be further adding to the confusion. If a woman can have a baby, earn a living, keep up a house, AND change her own tire, what's left for the man? Is he a mere sperm donor and companion for when she's wanting love and affection? Is this the new "metroman"?

I buy totally into the fact that women's and men's brains are wired differently, thus, they're going to think and feel differently, as well as have different priorities. For instance, a "manly man" takes pride in providing for his woman. If he can't provide for her, he feels deep shame. A man shows his love for a woman by DOING for her...fixing things, doing physical labor that is too difficult for her, and taking care of her. This makes him feel useful and worthy of her love. If he isn't allowed to do these things for her, he feels incompetent and not needed. It may sound ridiculous, but I know for a fact that this is how Robin and other men I know think. Some of you might argue that that's only one group or one "kind" of man, and you may be absolutely right, but "Jed" sounds like that kind of man as well.

For men like this, I think a men's group is a great idea, not because they want to uphold eachother's "superiority", but because they get to feel understood by people they consider their peers. I don't think men think they're superior at all...even if they put out those kind of vibes...I think they feel insecure and inferior, not sure how they're needed anymore or how they fit into the world. I often view myself as a male advocate, because I've seen men get the short end of the stick so many times, in what is fast becoming a minority and female oriented society. The pendulum has swung too far to the left, and needs to be brought back to center.

I think that most men and women bring specific gifts and virtues to the table, that the other falls short of, and a healthy respect for either side would generate more of a balance in society and harmony within relationships.

Some very good points Polly. As women we are also confused about how far we can go or where our "masculity" should stop in order not to mess up the balance. After all, both sides should feel comfortable, that's the main thing.

Good old Rob also brought up a smart point:

"Whilst it's great that the roles of men and women are slowly becomming more and more equal, and women are being treated better, you have to also understand that it can be hard for men because we're losing the sense of what a man traditionally is. You don't just lose something that is so ingrained in society for hundreds and hundreds of years just like that without a hint of confusion. Also, it's much easier to adapt to something when you're gaining from it than when you feel like you're losing something."

edit: but it's not that easy for many women also. Many of us have also been brought up with the role of wife and mother ingrained in us and the "normality" of being shielded and protected by a man. I for one felt totally lost and even terrified at the idea of having to support myself and my son without the protection and the security of a man. Until now I do feel quite vulnerable (MUCH less than before) and I do wish that I had a man by my side. And how I miss not having to worry about the plumbing and fixing electric plugs. :o

but it's not that easy for many women also. Many of us have also been brought up with the role of wife and mother ingrained in us and the "normality" of being shielded and protected by a man. I for one felt totally lost and even terrified at the idea of having to support myself and my son without the protection and the security of a man.

I can relate to that Loucine. I think a lot of mothers also have difficulty when they DO have a man.....like that pressure to be a housewife, whilst also working full time, and raising the children. My sisters often compain that being a full time house-wife is reagrded as `indulgence' by their husbnads and even soem of their peers, and yet when they work, they are still expected to do everything they did before. Sigh.

Anyway, I'm not meaning to minimise the problems some guys experience. Its just that my male friends as well as my fiance don't have any of those issues or fears. They respect women and feel comfortable just being full human beings. Maybe its the generation, like Rob suggested.

Right, it's a generation thing. A balance has to exist. I mainly think about the children in this turmoil. It takes alot of organising when both parents work in order for the children to get the attention that they need.

With my second husband who is also my son's father, things became too frustrating. We both had to work but HE(the husband) was the priority. I was the one who had to adapt my sechedule according to my son's. Plus he would NEVER, not even once help me with cleaning or laundry or any of that nasty stuff.

Now that I'm alone, things didn't get better. I was discussing the subject with another parent the other day. There are more and more women who raise their children alone and the school system isn't adapted.

My son keeps complaining about being tired and he's right. We both get home late. I have to find him activities after school because I can't pick him up at 4:30 as I should. When he gets home around 7 in the evening, he still has to do homework and when it's not done, I get letters from the school. The ironic part is that the school teacher tells me "Madame, you should give less time to your job and more time to your son" basically she's telling me that I'm a bad mother, forgetting that if I'm working so hard it's to be able to provide the minimum BASIC needs of our household. I'm not working to earn weekends and vacations in the South of France :(

This is a little bit out of subject but it is to say that alot of work still needs ton be done in order to find a healthy balance for everyone. Most women want or have to give up their roles of being exclusively mothers and wives and most men do not want to give up their roles of being providers. The problem however is that in most cases, both HAVE to work in order to make ends meet. It's not even a question of an interesting career, it's a question of survival.

Right, it's a generation thing. A balance has to exist. I mainly think about the children in this turmoil. It takes alot of organising when both parents work in order for the children to get the attention that they need.

There are more and more women who raise their children alone and the school system isn't adapted.



Part of the problem here is the expense of living on your own... mortgages and rent are getting so expensive nowadays that both parents often HAVE to work, theirs no choice. The cost of living is just increasing, and making it very difficult for any family to have an at-home-parent. And a lot of what you said, Aline, my gf struggles with too. She works full-time, and that means starting work before her daughter starts school, and finishing after... what are you supposed to do with your child? She's lucky, she managed to get someone to pick her up from school and she picks her up from there on the way home from work. Even worse, what about the holidays! I mean, there's summer camp, but I was amazed at the fact that (in America at least) they don't seem to run for the whole of the holidays, and also run less hours than normal work hours. THAT is madness to me, because they aren't even providing the service they're supposed to be there for. :confused:

Back to the original point though.... yes, I can see that sometimes it also isn't easy for women to adapt to the new gender roles. As I said, my gf has her mum constantly pushing this idea that she really should find someone who can provide for her. There's still a lot of people that hold to those traditional values, even females, so it's not necessarily easy. But men do have this problem where we aren't sure whether we're supposed to pay for dinner, or hold doors open, or whatever. There's raging feminists out there that would still want all that. How confusing! I mean, one minute being 'manly' is bad, the next it's good. :confused:

Btw, Aline, I could be completely wrong, but don't you think french men are maybe a bit lacking in the whole becomming more 'feminine' area compared to places like the UK or US? I seem to have that idea of a lot of continental european countries for some reason.

This isn't 100% in line with the thread topic, but I just wanted to comment on something...

Has anyone else ever noticed that whenever there is a discussion of equality between the genders, something is always inevitably mentioned about holding doors open/pulling out chairs for women? I've never seen these as having anything to do with equality... it's just a nice gesture, polite and respectful.

It makes me wonder this: if, when women demand equality, people think that means that chairs shouldn't be pulled out and doors shouldn't be opened... does that mean that in the past whenever a door was opened and a chair was pulled out, it was done as payment for having subjugated an entire gender? That may sound extreme, but I really find it silly the way the chair/door thing is in any way thought to be related to inequality.

Does anyone else see what I mean?? I know it's strange... I seem to find oddness in things that most people take at face value...

Pinkcat, I always thought that holding doors open and pulling out chairs for women was good manners and showed good upbringing. I think it should still be done. I think it also shows respect. I "trained" Robin to open doors for me and pull out my chair, as he had never been taught to do that. I think it's really rude when a man DOESN'T do it, or when a man walks in front of you, opens the door, and walks right in ahead of you. It drives me nuts!

Curiously though, I've actually had men ask me if I mind if they do these things. Apparently, these men were accosted by women after doing these things, and wanted to make sure I wasn't offended! It makes you wonder what kind of woman would be offended by such gestures. Unless she's a manly dyke, I can't imagine what she would find offensive, but these men explained to me that apparently these women interpreted the gestures to mean that they were too weak or helpless to perform the task themselves. Well, I'm sure that goes with their upbringing as well. I was taught to appreciate these gestures and to expect them from nice men...apparently these women were not taught that.

I agree with you that these gestures should not be entered into the gender equality thing. These are simply thoughtful and respectful gestures that a man performs for a woman or an elder.

I agree with you that these gestures should not be entered into the gender equality thing. These are simply thoughtful and respectful gestures that a man performs for a woman or an elder.

Does it not strike you as strange that it's only men that do these things for women? You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that in the past women were considered the weaker and male more dominant?

Would it not be polite for a woman to hold a door open for a man, or even moreso if they pulled out a chair for a man? If it's polite for a man to do so but not a woman, then why? I know that women have and do hold open doors for men a fair bit, but have you ever seen a woman pull out a chair for a man to sit down on?

Would it not be polite for a woman to hold a door open for a man, or even moreso if they pulled out a chair for a man? If it's polite for a man to do so but not a woman, then why? I know that women have and do hold open doors for men a fair bit, but have you ever seen a woman pull out a chair for a man to sit down on?


Rob, the chair-pulling-out thing is a lot more rare than the door thing, isn't it? I've found that in general, men don't really do the chair thing anymore (except for waiters, and by the boyfriend maybe on a special date like an anniversary dinner or something).

See, I don't see it as a "You are weaker so I will do it for you" thing. If that's how men see it, then NO, I don't want them to do it! Haha. But I don't see it that way so it's alright.

Oh, I do hold doors open for men, btw. My male friends seem to find it amusing.

Rob, I guess I'm a dinosaur but the only reason I'd see a woman pulling out a chair for a man is if he's in a wheelchair and she needs to remove the other chair to wheel him up to the table! LOL

Men opening doors, pulling out chairs, and taking on and off coats is an expression of respect and affection, in my eyes. He's saying, "Let me do that for you to make your life that much easier." Women do things for men too. Traditionally, women fix a man's plate at dinner (and cook the dinner too), pick up his dirty socks, buy his shampoo and other toiletry items when shopping, do his laundry and fold it, tie his necktie, polish his shoes, and sometimes even make phone calls or write letters on his behalf. I do these things for Robin, and I do them willingly and lovingly. I don't HAVE to do them, I want to. It makes his life easier. I like making him happy.

When men and women had specific roles in the home: The man went to work and provided financially for the family; the woman stayed home and took care of the house and kids, men and women had specific things they did for eachother to make eachother's lives easier and show their love for eachother. Now, with roles blending into eachother creating such a gray area, it's hard to define what is appropriate for men and women to do for eachother. I think it's kind of sad that society has gotten to this point, because I still see men and women as different creatures with different strengths and weaknesses. I think the way things used to be served both men and women well, and the children benefited even more.

It's kind of sad when men and women are competing against eachother instead of being complimentary to eachother.

It makes me wonder this: if, when women demand equality, people think that means that chairs shouldn't be pulled out and doors shouldn't be opened...

Yes Pink! Although I haven't really noticed that degree of impoliteness happening in my day to day life, every now and again I'll hear bitter comments along those lines ...like `well if women want equality, they should carry their own darn groceries'...that sort of comment.

I agree with Polly and yourself though, politeness is a humanitarian issue, not a gender issue.

If you see someone too small to carry their load easily and you have a free hand, its just nice to help them out. Theres a really tiny lady who lives on my street (she might be a pygmy, she's about the height of ten year old boy). About once a month or so, she'll catch the same bus home as me, baby in one arm, 6 full grocery bags in the other.....I always grab her groceries for her and walk her to her door to make the trip easier for her.

And I'm always opening doors for Stu, or stangers, or keeping them open if someone looks like they might be following me. And I've noticed that some of the older men who have worked around me are just as happy to make me a coffee as open a door for me.....and the reverse is true. Its all just basic courtesy.

I too agree with Polly.At times,feel like a "Odd-Ball",meaning I too,open doors for the ladies,pull chairs out for her,or offer my coat to her on a chilly evening.
Guess it's how,one is raised that matters.Good manners and good ol'fashion values,mean a alot to me.I expect the same from the lady as-well.
Had a,friend the other day tell me,that i was a rare,and dieing breed of man.Look around,you dont too much of manners and values at more.



The Shadow

As we get older and need more assurance, love and support, we also resent the people we are dependent upon to meet our needs.


This is the exact dynamic that came into play in the demise of my former relationship with my exvym. It is the reason I never mince words here on the boards when posters describe their new found "soulmate" who is 18, is moving in with them, who will be going to college while the OW virtually supports him, she becomes his entire world, etc. I have found that the more INDEPENDENT we are (especially in the first year or two, and absolutely especially with vym) in these relationships with our ym, and the more space we give them to grow their own autonomy/sense of self as a separate adult, the better the chances are of success with the relationship.


Men really do need us on some foundational level, but if we meet too many of their needs it compromises their sense of masculinity and can evolve into resentment toward us later down the road.

CAUTION is prudent regarding decisions to live together prematurely (before a year at least), pay for anything to make the ym's life easier (even if you have it to give and are generous in general), co-sign on any document that shows ownership of something of value, "help" in any way they seem to need it (type college papers for them, make phone calls for appointments, give them a job, etc.)

It goes back to the concept that two WHOLE-Independent people with active, personal social lives, the ability to stand on their own financially/emotionally, who have a solid sense of self make better partners...regardless of their ages.

Although my exvym and I didn't live together, he rented a studio apt. of mine (at a reduced rate :rolleyes: )...I never gave him money, but I signed on his car title so he could get a break on car insurance.... and more. It all contributed to his probably feeling somewhat dependent, and less autonomous...which fueled his "confusion" in the end after almost 4 years together..

Just a word to the wise... do your ym a huge favor and invest in his autonomy/independence. You will reap great rewards, and he will feel really good about himself while he becomes a better partner all around.

I see the conversation has switched to door-opening and chair-pulling while I was asleep. I don't know what the origins of that behaviour are but I remember one day in Russia I sat down on a stone structure and a man jumped up, asked me to get up and put his jacket on the stone thing and asked me to sit down again. When I asked why, I was told that the cold of the stone effects women's sterility.

So it made me wonder if all these manners aren't related to the fact that women bare children and it's a way of cherishing and respecting women for that.

Each country and each civilisation has its own way to value women and show signs of respect related to the fact that we are mothers. I guess... I don't know.

A friend and I were talking about this the other day. Women's lives are effected by their hormones and cycles. It's all related to our reproductive system and it's not easy to be a woman in that sense. It does in a certain way make us a weaker gender because its really not easy to deal with our cycles. Child bearing and childbirth are far from being easy tasks as well. Of course there's the epidural now, but for example I gave birth without epidural (it just didn't make any effect on me) and I know what women before that magic invention went through which is still the case of the majority of women in the world. The pain is out of this world and out of any boundaries of imagination. I guess civilisations understood that and understood that they owe women a certain respect and thankfulness.

I really don't pay attention to those details. I take things on a day to day basis. I used to hate it when my husband would just stand there and talk to a neighbour while I carried the baby in one arm, the groceries in the other and tried to open the door, he simply would not budge. Ironically, he was by my side when I gave birth, he saw what it was like, and I would have liked him to think "she went through so much already, perhaps I could make things easier for her".

On the other hand if I see my man having a hard time to get up in the morning after a hectic night at work, I bring his coffee to bed, iron his shirt and tie his necktie.

It's all a matter of care, respect and trying to make life easier for the other out of love and affection. I'd much rather walk into a place hand in hand with someone I love, than have a jerk open a door for me.

Men really do need us on some foundational level, but if we meet too many of their needs it compromises their sense of masculinity and can evolve into resentment toward us later down the road.

...

It goes back to the concept that two WHOLE-Independent people with active, personal social lives, the ability to stand on their own financially/emotionally, who have a solid sense of self make better partners...regardless of their ages.

OR...genders.

Because we are mostly women here and overall, older partners (women or men) have more wherewithal to make life "easier" for a partner, let's not impute the need for independence and autonomy within partnership to the *maleness* of the partner. The same dynamic can DEFINITELY happen when the man is the one "providing," whether the woman is younger or same-age, or older if that's the case. It depends on the details of each situation, but EVERYONE needs to feel whole and respected, in whatever way they want that to happen. Nobody likes to be patronized, women included.

If a man's "sense of masculinity" is compromised when he's being taken care of, that is just a label for whatever resentment he has, it isn't necessarily what is REALLY going on. "Masculinity" and its supposed fragility is just a convenient concept men can use against us whenever they resent something we've supposedly done to them, which is what this thread is all about.

Women can feel just as much resentment in such situations (look at what Aline said about her ex and his financial control), but we don't automatically connect it with some label like that, because women are "supposed to be" taken care of. Women have been infantilized and patronized for thousands of years, it is a way of removing any perceived threat from the personal power we all have as people. One can consider the "provision" for women as a set of golden handcuffs, in a way.

My point is, we ALL do better in life when our adulthood, independence and autonomy can be respected and exercised within partnership. It is not just for men.

Good point, Goldiecat.

Isn't it interesting that what we are calling "masculinity" or "maleness" or "manliness" is really just self-autonomy, dignity, respect, independence... wonder how it came about that these were "male" qualities... because I value them myself and I've never thought that they weren't my entitlement simply because I am a woman. And I DO NOT respect any woman who will sacrifice her own independence, etc., for a man.

It all comes down to respect, doesn't it?

It goes back to the concept that two WHOLE-Independent people with active, personal social lives, the ability to stand on their own financially/emotionally, who have a solid sense of self make better partners...regardless of their ages.

Yep, Goldie...that was my main point. Regardless of age or gender, dependence can breed resentment....

In the case of vyp, the older partner usually has the more secure place in life (financially) and greater life wisdom through experience which often contributes to them "taking care" of things for the younger partner. That MUST be avoided at all costs.

"Parenting" never works in a relationship...again, regardless of age or gender. :D

You know, parenting Robin is probably my biggest flaw in our relationship, and it's almost impossible for me not to. I am a "hovering", "controlling" person by nature. I parented my ex-husband, I parent my friends, and with Robin being 16 years younger, I couldn't help but parent him. What a huge mistake that's been! I think that's why when I read the first post, it really hit home. Robin must feel a lot like Jed because of what I've done. When we first met, he wanted the help, but I think it's almost like welfare. If you grow used to depending on the aid you receive, it's hard to get back off of it and become independent. I don't exactly create the type of atmosphere he needs to become autonomic and independent either. I guess by my "taking care of" him, I'm subconsciously making myself valuable and irreplaceable? That's scary! BTW, we are going to a blended family counselor (issues with the kids) and I'm sure my "parenting" behavior towards Robin will be addressed as well.

I did tell Robin when we got back together that the only reason two people should be together is because they love eachother so much they can't stand to be apart. It should never be for any other reason, including provision, co-dependency, sexual addiction, or control. I guess I was kind of afraid that my making his life so easy previously was a big temptation for him to return, and I didn't want him to come back under any circumstances other than loving me and wanting to be with me.

We are doing things differently now, but I still have a ways to go as far as jumping in and taking care of things for him to the extent that he isn't really progressing towards total independence. I should reiterrate though, I'd probably be that way with ANYONE, younger or older. It's a personality flaw and I really need to work on it!

Me too, Polly...I learned from past mistakes in the "parenting" department. The good news is that you can change with strong resolve. I will never knowingly do that again. In my current relationship with J (27), everything is separate, we live separately, finances are separate...HE does the giving: the paying for dates, the little gifts for no reason, planning weekends away... (even though I am in a better place financially at this stage of the game),he has his own friends that he hangs with and does guy-stuff (riding motorcyles, etc.) and I have my friends....then, we also have friends together etc..

I bite my tongue when I feel something that sounds like a mothering or controlling "suggestion" or comment coming on. He feels admired and solid as an independent individual, as do I. I'm not sure we are in it for the long haul yet (18 months dating)...I'm going really SLOW this time....but if we are, we are setting a great foundation for success.

It works SO much better this way. Hang in there, Polly, it can work...and couple's therapy is a great start to gather the tools for change :) .

this is an interesting opposing view to the initial post in thread.

my boyfriend has no trouble with emotional intimacy. now. he's exceptional, actually. however, his mother has warned him about women throughout his life, essentially about them looking for a free ride. like we're vultures. he knows that this is not the case with me, but i think that this idea somehow infuses into his inclination to make a commitment with a woman. he's an only child, doesn't have close male OR female friends, aside from me, no extended family to speak of, and is quite capable of putting up walls to keep women from infiltrating his life. that's how it was in the beginning in our relationship. the walls. but he learned that if he wanted to have me in his life, i needed more. i wasn't about to scale any walls.

bottom line, for us, the emotional intimacy is great, but i wonder if he'll ever be able to put the woman in his life first, before everything else. i know that frequently priorities have to change, but from time to time it's true that our significant others become more important than anything else. i think that his psyche makes it quite possible for him to not need anyone. i wonder how he'll feel when he loses his parents (they're both in they're 70s), with no close extended family. will he feel safe behind his walls then?

Wow, very thought-provoking thread.

I am guilty of 'parenting' my YM sometimes. When he and my teens are nit-picking and fighting and pouting, it just brings it out of me. I tell them all to go to time-out. Sheesh. lol.

When we first got together I was paying for everything. After much fighting, I've made him step up to the plate. He moved himself in, when we split the first time. He didn't pay or do anything. A lump on the couch expecting to be catered to. After much heartache, I sent him packing back to his mom.

We've had many discussions and are currently 'hanging out' with each other. He wants to be together. I'm still holding out. He now pays for all dates and dinners and stuff. He now opens the door for me instead of walking in front of me and letting the door slam in my face. He is trying to tell me I'm pretty and calls me Baby every so often, instead of grunts and yelling "Hey'' at me.

I don't think this is feminizing him (if that's a word). I think it's manners. It's called being respectful of the other's feelings. My oldest asked him if he was raised in a barn....lol. He's doing better now.

In turn I do things for him too. It's give and take. No one wants to do all the giving all the time. Plus the giver wants to know it's appreciated and that they aren't being used. Anyway, great thread! :)