What Obilgation Does an Older Person have in relationships with Very Young People?

I'm going to post this thread on both sides of the board because I think it is really important to consider regardless of the sex of the younger partner. As clarification, maybe a disclaimer ;) , this thread is in reference to relationships with very young people only; and particularly with teenagers (18-19).
I'm pretty sure it may not be popular with some; but I've always held that it was more important to put a guard rail at the top of a winding mountain rode rather than an ambulance at the bottom.

Hopefully this thread will be a catalyst to careful thought and discussion with the goal of enabling our membership to make sound personal decisions and give good advice to newbies and others. It is in no way a commentary on any op/vyp couple currently in a successful long-term relationship for 3-5 years or more (through to the vyp's mid-20's)...obviously, these few couples have done what it takes to make it work :) . Hopefully, they can continue to share sound advice coupled with the realities and uniqueness of partnering with a vyp to let others considering it or currently involved to gain understanding and wisdom.


Often on the boards here an older partner posts wondering if they have a responsibility to put the brakes on at the beginning of a relationship with a vyp, especially one who is still in his/her teens (I know I wondered when I grew to love my ex-vybf, and wish I would have known then what I know now...). Do they have a legal responsibility? No, not if the yp is 18 or older. But being legal is different than being ethically/morally on high ground especially regarding the best interest of the younger person. When we truly care for or love someone, we will put their best interests ahead of ours.

Here's the deal: most of us have heard the physiological fact that our brains aren't develped fully until our mid-20's, about 25 or so (male and female). Just yesterday on a show featuring a 45 year old man engaged to a 17 year old girl (it was legal in his state), Dr. Phil clarified further with this sobering point :

"Young people's brains don't stop growing until their mid-20's. The last part of the brain to develop is the reasoning center...where the ability to logically reason their way through something to predict the consequences of their actions and decisions in the future occurs."

Regardless of what you think of Dr. Phil (I'm not particularly a fan, but watched because of the age-gap related segment), the fact is sobering....and frankly, it makes sense.

How many times have older partners lamented on the boards about the end of a relationship with a vyp (under 21) because the yp has become "confused". Even those who have made it past the 5-year mark with their vyp disclose that they have weathered an era of "confusion" with their yp as well. One day the yp seems to be totally in love and devoted, virtually the next, they aren't sure what they want. Yes, people of every age change their minds about relationships....but the scenario with the vyp seems to be unique and predictable in that the change can be abrupt, and is centered in "confusion". The brain development facts seem to indicate that a vyp can sincerely think they are in love with an older person in the moment, make some adult decisions about pursuing a relationship with that OP (like moving in, having sex, etc.) and later be completely confused as to why they did. To me this says that we may be responsible for the decision to step away in order to allow the vyp to grow up first. If it is truly abiding love, stepping away for a time will not change that.

How should these facts affect us and our decisions concerning vyp?

1. I think OP considering partnering with a very-young person should think long and hard about what their expectations are. If it is for long term love, they should be realistic about the statistics that indicate it most likely won't happen. The failure rate is a much larger percentage than it is in other relationships (even other AGR's).

2. If the OP decides to jump in anyway, I think they are obligated to insure/allow the autonomy and independent growth of the yp in every area they are able to....mindfully and lovingly making a private pact with themselves to refuse to enable/parent/provide the needs or wants that a yp should discover/provide for themselves. (see input about allowing autonomy in this thread started by bubbleee :http://www.agelesslove.com/boards/showthread.php?t=24139&page=1&pp=15)
Fostering an environment of financial/emotional and/or social dependence on you as an older partner does the vyp a disservice in dissallowing them a normal path of maturity development, and historically creates resentment in the end anyway. It's lose-lose for sure.

Obviously, living apart is a good way to create a foundational atmosphere of independence while the yp grows and gains his/her adult-feet under him/her. We mature as we learn how to support ourselves and solve our own probelms. And, just as many wise OW on the boards have mentioned time and time again: we shouldn't tolerate bad behavior but should expect the same things (including independence, I believe) from a yp as we would a same age partner. Thus, if you wouldn't co-sign on a loan, give money to, make decisions for, or in other ways "parent" a same age partner; it follows that you shouldn't do these things for a vyp. It is harder not to "help" often because of the yp's worldly naivete and/or lack of resources; but is, I think, essential.

3. Our role as an older partner would be best as an encouraging, supportive force rather than a problem-solver in our vyp's life.

Basically, if we fall in love with a vyp, step into it realistically with no-expectation-for-longevity blinders on, work hard to not create dependence financially/emotionally/socially or to "parent", but allow them the best atmosphere to gain autonomy and independance as they grow into their adulthood for the next few years...and they still choose freely to love and be with us through their early 20's and beyond, then we've met our obligation and can feel confidant that THIS vyp is one of the few, special, unique, one-in-a-million vyp capable of knowing and following through with something they committed to in their teens.

If someone six years ago had told me about the brain physiology of a vyp, shared the statistics about the failure rate of op/vyp relationships, told me honestly about the pending emotional roller coaster ride ahead if I chose to step in, I honestly think I would have reconsidered...or at least put the brakes on until he was 21+ to let him experience life, gain autonomy and see if what seemed to be real, in fact was.

Your thoughts?

Hmmm..its a very thought provoking topic, Special K.

I think your `rules' are very well thought out, but I guess fundermentally I believe that older partners need to use their own judgment regarding their Younger partner as a person & the circumstances.

Just getting back to my own circle of family/friends, many of my siblings married older partners in their teens, and remain married with big families. 17 years later. They didn't delay moving in together or whatnot. I also have a great aunt who married a 60 year man when she was 18. They remained married until his death 20 years later. This being the case, I feel that it IS possible for such relationships to work.

If it is for long term love, they should be realistic about the statistics that indicate it most likely won't happen. The failure rate is a much larger percentage than it is in other relationships (even other AGR's).

I agree that its wise to be mindful of such statistics. But I am conflicted on this....I also believe that its wise to cultivate a positive attitude about things, because negative thinking has a way of sabotaging our prospects in ANY situation.

If the OP decides to jump in anyway, I think they are obligated to insure/allow the autonomy and independent growth of the yp in every area they are able to....

Just my opinion, I think many partnerships work best when the couple grow together and adapt to one another. Speaking for myself, If my partner wouldn't live with me, wouldn't do things with me, encouraged me to be on my own in terms of activities and friendships, well I might easily feel that it wasn't a partnership, but a friendship., and that he didn't really want a partnership I know everyone's different, but I would feel very lonely in such a relationship/ marriage.

Basically, if we fall in love with a vyp, step into it realistically with no-expectation-for-longevity blinders on, work hard to not create dependence financially/emotionally/socially or to "parent", but allow them the best atmosphere to gain autonomy and independance

There is a lot of wisdom in this, but again this could all convey a message of `separateness' rather than `togetherness' which not all people seek or like in a marriage/partnership.

Most particularly, I think many people seek out a partner for emotional gratification...love, security, stability, happiness. They want someone who loves them and knows them, who they can count on to meet these emotional needs.

Overall, I feel that if you vigorously encourage emotional/social/finacial independence and autonomy in your partner no matter what age, then don't be surprised if they wind up automous and independent...of the relationship with YOU!

I'm not proposing smothering or stifling growth. I just think people can depend on their partners, live with their partners, and meet each other's needs to their full capacity AND still grow!

To say that this discovery guarantees that a person's age is the primary thing that determines an individual's maturity is a half-truth. The fact that a person's brian is still developing can never be an excuse for a sin like drunkeness, which is too common on college campuses. Yet, there are also some college students that do not drink, even if they are not a majority. Some people display more maturity from ages 18-22 than people in their early and even late 20's. So there has to be other factors at work, such as alcohol use before age 18, alcohol use by a person's mother while that person was developing in her womb, smoking, and nutritional eating habits. What this indicates is that there needs to be more education on age gap relationships and the factors that can contribute to the success of these relationships. If a girl of at least 18 has exceptional maturity, she could have a successful AGR w/ an older man, perhaps 10-15 years older. I have also read that a person's brain is always developing, always changing. There are also individual success stories that go against this type of thinking. These kind of stories must be heard.

Thoughtful response, Bella_D :D

You are in Australia, right? I'm wondering if the glowing history of successful AGR's with partners in their teens in your family could somehow be culturally, or even environmentally related. Your family obviously has some positive role models for success in that arena and I'm sure that has a filter-down affect on the others too. That's a good thing.

Unfortunately, that's not the case globally, statistically....not in America and not on these boards even.

Just my opinion, I think many partnerships work best when the couple grow together and adapt to one another


I totally agree...however autonomy and a sense of independence (strength on your own, mastering self-government) doesn't negate growing and adapting together...although an overly dependent or co-dependent situation does. I think that two people who are autonomous and strong in themselves have more to bring to a relationship where healthier growth together can occur.

I like the saying that "you can't give what you don't have"...if someone isn't ever allowed to be on their own...totally on their own...to learn, grow, discover, make their own way and feel the success in that, then they are less able to give the positives that come from high self esteem through personal accomplishment in a relationship. Not that a vyp can't gain these things in a relationship, I think they can...if the OP is consistently mindful of allowing them to make their own way rather than stepping in and smoothing things over in their lives, or whatever.

Those who have been parents of teenagers know that if you always "smooth things over" for your child they become dependent and soon gain a sense of "entitlement" to have everything work out in their lives. That's not realistic, and breeds resentment in the long run. If it's not good to parent our children in this way, it's even more important not to "parent" our vyp's by creating unhealthy dependence in them for us.

Unfortunately, that's not the case globally, statistically....not in America and not on these boards even.

If you have such statistics can you please share them here? I am very interested to read them. I know that I have spent a great deal of time over the last several years attempting to find any statistics on this information at all and I haven't even discovered a poor source let alone any source. Even my attempts at collecting this information here on the forums yielded contrary/unclear data. I'm going to go back and try to find that thread, but it is so old I might not be able to resurrect it.

/edited to add: Unable to find it... I am pretty sure that there are at least a few peeps still around that participated in this thread. Does anyone recall it that maybe can help me find it? In it we were trying to identify all of the active known couples with vym partners and identify their status as to whether or not they were still together. We actually named names and encouraged folks to post their status so that we could find out how many of these couples have ended. The reason was to find out where this idea "that most vym partnerships end sadly and that it is the rare case that works out" comes from and if it is based upon reality as experienced by a majority in this community. I do recall the outcome, but don't really want to post it if I can't find the thread. Anyone else recall it?

You are in Australia, right? I'm wondering if the glowing history of successful AGR's with partners in their teens in your family could somehow be culturally, or even environmentally related.

I can't speak for my great aunt, but my siblings and I grew up in a wealthy , coddled family, and I guess many of us unconsciously sought out `parent' figures in partners because we were hopeless with zero survival skills! I think there is a kind of symbolism we attached to older partners, relating to nurture and parental care. Sounds pretty dysfunctional, huh? Well it probably was.

And yet the younger partners still managed to grow up, raise large families, get university degrees, learn independence etc, and I know they still adore their spouses. We're all pretty hopeless at housekeeping though.

I dunno..I guess I'm a bit more relaxed about certain aspects of dysfunctionality. Most of us are little messy in some ways, and yet love can thrive even without perfection.

Bella....
"...to love and thrive without perfection..." That's a pretty good state to be in. Sounds like your family is full of great people and successful relationships. That's wonderful. Out of curiosity, are most of those ow/ym couplings or yw/om?

Marcy...I remember that thread...and I remember that the number of couples that started as relationships with 18-19 years olds and lasted for more than 5 years to date was quite small. There were lots of postings from people with older-partner AGR's with favorable longevity records, but not many that started with one partner as a teenager. That was kind of the focus of this thread.

I have asked those on the OW/YM side that fit the bill to stand up and be counted :) (and share their wisdom for success!).

Let us know if you have been in an AGR with someone for 5+ years who was at first a vyw 18-19.

While there are some very interesting thought and questions in this discussion it's making by brain hurt. LOL A couple of things that popped into my head:

1. It is interesting that the word "partner" and the word "parent" have the same letters. I realized that when I noticed I was occasionally reading the wrong word in some of the previous posts.

2. I'm not a huge fan of statistics so perhaps I'm biased. But I don't make my decisions (relationships or otherwise) by looking at what nine out of ten people do.

3. Ironically I just recently posted in another thread that it's my opinion that more often than not we simply have relationship problems that we blame on the age gap.

All of that said, I'd agree that a VYP relationship carries some added challenges and, perhaps, creates some extra responsibility for the older member of the relationship. However, if the OM accepts the responsbility fully one could rightly conclude that they've moved from partner to parent. Now what happens when the VYP grows up and doesn't need a parent any more? And, while the VYP is growing up does the older partner put his or her needs on hold?

In that sense, we are all adults and we are all children. The question of maturity is often the question of adapting the right role for the circumstances and the situation. Some people learn to do that early in life. Some people never get it.

We need to concern ourselves with blending all our individual differences, not just the age difference. I think that's the challenge of every relationship. In some of my early posts here, I described it as figuring out how two matches make one flame.

I really dont mean to flame or anything, but, these young men are allowed to vote in elections and decide the fate of our governments and also go to war and die for us, I think it is so patronising of this thread to suggest that we should sit back and make them wait until they are mature enough to handle such a thing as an older woman relationship. I'm certainly not his parent and wouldnt try to be, if he wants to be with me in any capacity at all, and I want to be with him, then so be it. Life is sometimes cruel and who knows how long anyone has, so just get on with it.
It might be because I'm not looking for any kind of marriage, or forever, but thats just how I see it. (and I'm certainly no cougar)

Hi Special K. I have 2 brothers and four sisters; two sisters in YW/OM relationships (10-20 years difference) and a brother married to a lady in her late fifties, 23 years older than him. And theres me, engaged to a guy 10 years younger.

Amen Wallypop and Babybee...

and since Special mentioned the results... my memory is actually the opposite. Most couples that we thought of/participated were actually still together and happy... please read the post that Bella made up in the other section for details on some of those sucessful relationships.

Wally's point to me speaks the loudest. Relationships end... they end for all kinds of reasons... most of them seem so obvious to outsiders looking in... I think its a bit too easy to blame it on the agegap and I'm pretty sure that it hurts less to do that... we don't have to acknowledge that we overlooked red flags that indicated things weren't just right.

I also really loved the parent/partner thing.

Since Dr. Phil is pretty much against big age gaps, any 'statistics' he could come up with would be biased to his point of view. Would you trust firearms statistics from Handgun Control (or the NRA)? Both have their agendas that they are making up stuff to try to forward. Why buy into propaganda?

With young people (such as myself), there are a lot of young people that aren't quite mature enough to be in a relationship, but anybody that is pursuing an older partner and wants to settle down would apparently have a different mindset. One of the key things is to expect them to contribute whatever they can (within reason) to the relationship, and also not to pamper them or whatever, but let them learn to do things on their own. Just look at my response on the other thread on OW/YM I guess...

It doesn't take all that much intelligence to vote or to go to war or to do any of the other things people typically mention. Although my girlfriend is very isn't as young as being described here, I'm sure at 18 her reasoning was better developed than 99% of people in the world. Dr. Phil may have a point, but he neglects to add that most people's reasoning centers NEVER totally work. I'm glad I found a rare person, that regardless of age, has no desire to go through life being stupid.

Since Dr. Phil is pretty much against big age gaps, any 'statistics' he could come up with would be biased to his point of view.

Just to clarify for you, Phil...Dr. Phil didn't mention statistics, he simply stated physiological info about how brains develop in yp until their mid-20's.

Marcy directed us to a good link that seems to support this on the other side of the board. It seems to reinforce the fact that "young adults" with more mature/efficient brain connections are between the ages of 23-30. Young teens 12-16 have the lowest levels, thus, 17-22 would be somewhere in the middle between under-developed and fully developed. That implies that 17-22 are "still developing".Here is a portion of that, and the link if you want to go look :) :


....with the frontal lobes not fully maturing until young adulthood. To confirm this in living humans, the UCLA researchers compared MRI scans of young adults, 23-30, with those of teens, 12-16. They looked for signs of myelin, which would imply more mature, efficient connections, within gray matter. As expected, areas of the frontal lobe showed the largest differences between young adults and teens. This increased myelination in the adult frontal cortex likely relates to the maturation of cognitive processing....

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/Publicat/teenbrain.cfm

Bella_D...
How cool to live in YOUR family :D

We're just average people with tons of faults and quirks, Special K, but thanks.

I post this only because the study in my original post has been questioned and invalidated as coming from Dr. Phil ...and because I was challenged (somewhat disdainfully) to find the study and/or list statistics or their sources, I found these online and share them for clarification. Some will "take it" some will "leave it".

The first was in an article in discussion of raising the nationwide driving age from 16 to 17; it was concluded that even a small shift in minimum age would save so many lives since the reasoning/impulse centers of the young brain (male and female) develop dramatically between 16-25... the brain development study was conducted at the National Institutes of Health (not at the backstage Dr. Phil Show think tank!) :


Quote:
New findings from brain researchers at the National Institutes of Health explain for the first time why efforts to protect the youngest drivers usually fail. The weak link: what's called “the executive branch” of the teen brain — the part that weighs risks, makes judgments and controls impulsive behavior.
Scientists at the NIH campus in Bethesda, Md., have found that this vital area develops through the teenage years and isn't fully mature until age 25. **One 16-year-old's brain might be more developed than another 18-year-old's, just as a younger teen might be taller than an older one. But evidence is mounting that a 16-year-old's brain is generally far less developed than those just a little older.

**...or, one 18 year old's may be more developed than a 20 year old's (like I would assume the vyp's here in successful long term relationships with om are) just as one 18 year old may be taller than an older person. ...but generally speaking, everyone's reasoning center develops last, and is "fully mature" by 25...

This says to me that someone at 22 has more of their own personal reasoning capacity available to them than when they were 18. It doesn't mean that we can't reason, or control impulsive decisions in our late teens or early 20's, but it does seem to suggest that taking extra time, considering wise input and counsel before major decision-making during this era of life would be a positive. An OP and their vyp would offer the greatest potential for long term success (if that's what they are seeking) if they go slowly and think rationally at the beginning, weighing all knowledge and sound counsel to figure out how to proceed rather than working off of emotions, or the excitement of the infatuation phase.

Also found this really interesting statistics page on the divorce.com website...some that may apply to this discussion (because of the "magic age of 25" used as a statistical parameter in some of the statistics mentioned). The statistics are from 1995-2002, and it is noted that all percentages are unfortunately higher now : But the stuff is intersting to read. It even has a statistic for people who are stalked by former spouses :eek: . It did indicate that statistically those who partner before age 20, split in higher percentages than those who partner at 25+...(Probably if both partners are under 20, the statistic is even higher?) I think it was 40% vs 24% in 1995....sadly, both percentages are likely higher now since the percentage of splits/divorce in general is now nearing 55%)
Take it or leave it...some may find it interesting, some may not...but since I was challenged...here's the link if you want to read. If not, no problem:

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

I would list success rate statistics for AGR's with vyp rather than divorce statistics...but so far I can't find any online. I still believe that we here at AL ARE a relative indicator of statistics for that. How many AGR's that started with one partner being 18-19 years old are still succeeding 5+ years later? It would be interesting to find out on this side of the board. If you and your yw are one of these success stories, please post and let us know what wisdom you have to share to help it work for others :) .

For newbies considering a brand new AGR with a vyp, read, discern, try to THINK without the cloud of infatuation dictating your decisions ( both sides of the discussion here are valid and useful), weigh it all out, go slow and decide for yourself. There is no "wrong" answer, we learn something from everyone who comes into our lives no matter how long they are in it. I learned a ton from K, my ex-vybf- and he from me, i'm sure.

To those who have voiced their sympathy about the end of my relationship with K....a sincere thank you, but there's no need...it's been 3 years since our break up; I'm fully healed (having gone through every stage needed to do that completely, with counseling too!), and I do not wish we were still together now or in the future. Life has moved on in such great ways for me since 2003, I would never want to go back. I hope he is as happy in his life, as I am in mine, and think mostly fond thoughts about our past time together.

Best to everyone,
Karen

We're just average people with tons of faults and quirks, Special K, but thanks.

I am perfect, it is hard to live this way. :)

Giggle:) Thanks for taking the burdeon off the rest of us.

It is hard to be humble when you are perfect in every way. :p