LADIES: Is this kind of behaviour familiar?

There's an old saying that says you can never truly understand another person's problems untill you've walked a mile in their shoes, which I think happened to me this afternoon. OK so maybe not exactly a mile but allow me to elaborate:

I was visiting another message board - a retro/nostalgia TV themed board that I used to regularly visit and got involved in a lively and fun discussion thread about TV shows we remembered loving as kids. Several users and quite a few lurkers, one of whom (named Michael) only decided to introduce himself to me privately as I discovered when I checked my email a bit later and I found not one but TWO emails from him -- sent only about ten minutes apart from each other. The first was basically just his babbling and gushing aobut how absolutely *thrilled* he was to meet someone who also remembered the same shows he did as a kid. Well I was bemused at first and really had no intention of responding. Then I read the second one which was a follow up email because he was " very concerned" that because he hadn't received a reply from me during the very um...excruciatingly *long* time interval of ten minutes. He also asked me a question regarding TV shows I remembered and polite person that I thought OK well I'll respond to this one and that would make him happy. Big Mistake. He sent me another email -- again almost instantly and he was gushing again, telling me how glad he was he'd found me and pouring out his soul to me, how it was so great to have a bond with someone who remembered the same shows he did and share his happy memories and how I was totally awesome and totally wanted to get to know me...now I have to confess this kind of made me feel...well I shuddered, I mean it gave me the creeps and I thought then what the f**k is this guy's problem.?!? I mean is he really this desperate for friends that he has to do this? I couldn't it figure it out untill yet half an hour later I received another email from him and was finally saying OK dude you're giving me the willies and was going to block his pathetic emails so I didn't have to put up with them and....well what THIS next one asked me was a huge revelation which needless to say explained a lot leaving me wondering how I didn't figure it out sooner. Here it is along with his follow up one that I saved exactly as they were sent to me and as I responded. My own commentary is in brackets:

__________________________________________________ __

Hi

> > I have two quick questions for you.
> >
> > 1. Are you a man or a woman? I really can't tell
> with
> > your name and it's driving me nuts!!!

> >
> > 2. What is it you do for work? Just wondering.

__________________________________________________ __

(Well by now since I had pretty much figured things out - I did respond to these questions to see if my next guess would prove accurate, which it did. Here was my reply):

_
> Glad to fill in the blanks: 1)I'm a guy -- it's an
> Irish name. and 2)I'm a full time student right now, working part time while I complete my BSW.
>
> How about you?


(And mercifully, this was his final reply and was his disappointment obvious!):


>>"I currently have a local access puppet show, on TV.

It pays nothing.

Michael"


Well while I was glad to realize he wouldn't bother me again I could only imagine what would have followed -- well what he'd have tried at any rate -- if I told him I was a woman and how many other women have had to put up with and will continue to have to deal with this kind of idiocy on the internet. I mean if I found it irritating for a a few hours not to mention creepy, I can only imagine what it must be like for women who receive this kind of harrassment in their inbox from Morons like this Michael almost daily.

So ladies, tell me do you regularly receive this kind of thing and is it this bad because let me tell you you've got my heartfelt sympathy if that's the case.

:(

Niall,
In answer to your question - For me, it has been a regular occurrence. I went into another chat room just once, was just observing because I had never been in one. Got 3 Ims, answered them just to see.... one was 18 yo who was wanting to get it on with an older woman right then and there, one was a guy that just asked me immediately where the strangest place was I had ever had sex and then proceeded to tell me his desire, which I would not mention to a dog and I got out of there, and a very clinging lonely guy. One guy would not leave me alone, like your guy, kept sending me ims and when I would not answer, he started sending me ugly smilely faces. ha I had to block him and I changed my password for safe measure. Yeah, I think women get that all the time. On the internet and in real life.

By the way, you answered my question about the guy I am seeing, the 23 yo and I want to thank you for that. Gave me something to think about. I am 45.

I was the one who had a 23 yo propose a few years ago. I had known him for about 2 years, but After my divorce, we got to know each other better, but his age made me scared to try a relationship. He was very mature and respectful, it was just the age difference. I am still not sure, but thanks for the advice.
Jayne

LOL! Good Grief! Yeah, I think most of us put up with that sort of thing regularly.

A puppet show on access tv? I'm still laughing.....

Not making fun, just striking me silly. :)

Kye

I can enter a chat room on AOL and within 30 seconds of entering at least one guy has IMed me. Usually 2 or 3 It's clear just from my screen name there that I am a woman. I get emails all the time from just my PROFILE on Yahoo. yes yes yes woman online are attacked right and left.

Now I have a question for everyone, is it just me or do men online tend to get forward way to fast. I had a guy last night that by the time we were 15 minutes into the conversation was suggesting he show up with massage oil.

I said " I'm ok with that but my 6'2" 350 pound boyfriend might not like it too much".

Lots of times they start with 'do you have big b@@bs? I tell them no. Heck I am a bbw of course I have big b@@bs. Besides there is a picture of me on my AOL profile (or at least a link to it)

One of the things that attracted me to my current YM is that he never asked. He never cared. He still doesn't.

other things asked:

do you cyber (sometimes put as do you want to play)
well if you don't cyber give me your number so i can call or (do you do phone sex)
what are you measurments
what is your favorite position

sometimes i give them smart answers
sometiimes i give them rude answers

usually my response is:

if you met me at a party would you ask me that? the answer is always NO.

so why ask me that now?

sorry you struck a chord. Needy men make me realize just how horrible I was as a needy woman. I am so much happier now.

I too can relate .. the other night I popped into a Yahoo chat room and within seconds, several IM's appeared. Within 1 minute, they were both asking to meet for coffee and/or dinner. I gave a polite enough response stating that I don't meet men that I have only exchanged 2 sentences with in a chat room. One actually asked, "why not?" .. duh .. I just don't need a cup of coffee that badly and if I do, I'll make it myself and drink it while I sit in amazement at how Neanderthal some men can be.

The other, an alleged NYC cop, asked if he could send me an NYPD t-shirt. Nice try to get my address, buddy .. I reminded him that being a cop, he should know better than to ask something like that. Of course, that was after the invitation to come down in the summer, hop on his boat and go to the Hamptons with him .. all within 5 minutes.

Well, I'm sure I'd look great perched on that boat, wearing my new NYPD t-shirt, cup a java in hand .. call me crazy, but I think I'll pass!

Well, no it doesn't happen to me, not much. Because I don't go the chatrooms (and I'm selective about newsgroups and bulletin boards) and make an effort to conceal my private e-mail by using another account to soak up Spam and strangers - that I check when I'm in aaa resilient mood. If people want to chat - ICQ is really a much better protocol, your privacy is better-protected and because it's a little techier, people who use it tend to have a bit more on the ball.
But ummm.. when it does happen - don't, no matter what, answer. Answering is the short step that leads to the swamp :>

Originally posted by Nessa

what is your favorite position



I'd say "Choking the living s**t out of loser/stalker/Net creeps like you!"

Cheers from Cali!

LADave;)

starting with chat rooms here and there or posting my profiles on other websites.. just to see if I'll be "attacked"..

I think if the web is about TV shows there not supposed to be any personal attempts. But when one joins the web that is about meeting people and/or intimate encounters - one should expect to be contacted by others - as this is the purpose of being there, right? And then one has to be prepared for neanderthals, f....g machines and rude or desperate males on the go... Only sometimes a jewel might show up..

I did try Lavalife for a while and was upset not once that some guys would speak to me like I was ready for.. anything... But they were there to get laid and not to respectfully romance a lady.. Once I understood that - I simply left... Couldn't blame them for using that web for the purpose it was designed... I could only wish they were more cultured...
As for the chat rooms - I am not a fan of that, therefore have really not much of experience...

Riall, I like reading your posts.. please continue..

Telimena

Yes, we women are treated disgustingly on the Internet. Sometimes it is our own fault, though. A little supposedly harrmless flirting in a chat room will be grossly misinterpreted. The only chat room I ever go into is Ageless. Most of the time, it is quite proper and you can have a nice chat with normal, respectful men and women. If someone comes on and starts to get vulgar, then I immediately leave. When I was single, I had a personal ad posted on several reputable sites. I worded my ad so that it was very clear about the kind of relationship I wanted and the type of man I wanted to meet. I never alluded to sex in any way. A few weirdos still tried to get my attention, but for the most part I was able to filter them out right from the beginning by the specific criteria I posted in my ad. It is better to get only a few responses from a personal ad; it means that your ad is working and you therefore have more chance of meeting the kind of person you are looking for.

Patricia

I've been to our chat room and have never had a problem there. Always good friends waiting to talk. But, I went to a yahoo chatroom ONE TIME and got bombarded immediately with gross PM's....guys wanting to have some "fun". I didn't like it at all. Plus, most of the conversation was pretty downright stupid and uninteresting. I never tried any other chatrooms. I don't really get on the computer to talk, anyway. And the only message boards I visit are gaming forums, and we're too busy talking about games and computers. None of the guys hit on me. I met my Mike on a gaming forum, and neither of us were looking for anyone, we just clicked. Had a lot to say to each other, and kept marveling at all we had in common. So, I guess I should say I haven't had that much of that kind of thing, but, like Desert Spring, I really don't give anyone the opportunity to bug me. If someone hit on me right away, I would TOTALLY not be interested anyway. Friends first, always.

Kye

I once years ago put an ad up saying I was a religous Christian and looking for a serious relationship. I made the mistake of putting up an overly flattering picture of me (looks better IMHO than I do IRL). I got many many e-mails from desperate guys wanted sex. Not many of them actually even READ my ad. One that did said he was a Christian and that his ex-gf and him liked to go to orgies together and would I like to do that with him? I did NOT respond! He sent about 3 more e-mails after that all saying the same thing, different ways.

When I was on mIRC, I got unsolicted pictures sent to me of guys's taking a picture of their butts...or their family jewels. It would be like "Hi, how are you? Do you live in ...." and then he would send a picture...I would open it and shake my head. I finally stopped accepting pictures. Some men would stalk me if I indicated I was not interested...some acted hostile in their replies. I grew weary of mIRC and have not used it for years. I don't like being treated like a piece of meat and stalked.

Long ago, when I was looking for a roomate and put an ad in the newspaper, a man kept calling over and over and over...saying "I have an ex-wife who loves to talk about sex...have sex...and [graphic]..." I stopped answering the phone...men kept calling and calling, some even offering to be roomates when I explicitly put WOMEN ONLY. One sad case was a woman who was in a divorce with a newborn baby. I wanted to room with her out of my heart strings being pulled...but my mom who has great intution said "Don't do it...bad feeling about this..." and later on...the woman let some details out the bag that made me worry (like drug use).

Since I work for a Computer Security company, I know stuff that goes on...some stuff I can't even talk about [since that could give ideas to sickos who might be copy cats]...and all I can tell you is to be careful!

Here (agelesslove) people act pretty mature compared to many places I have been. I think 90% or more of the people hear are nice, normal people...but then the 10% (mostly lurkers) may be sickos trying to find prey...so I don't talk about myself as much as I would like (where I work...my friends' names, where I went to school...my church..etc...) since those bad apples make me keep things more private than I like to.

There are a lot of sick people out there...and the internet is an easy place for them to hang out. As the previous poster said, places like IRQ are a little less inclined to have bad apples...aol has a disappropriate percentage since everyone and their mother uses it. (I must admit though...my friend found her husband and now soon to be father of her up and coming baby...on AOL and she was 280 lbs at the time...and fully upfront about that in her profile).

You got it right...women do get stalked...but if you know where to go (like here) it doesn't happen as often as other places.

This phenomena is something that is part and parcel of life online when you are female.

Except on this forum, and when trolling Yahoo chatrooms for content for a humor-oriented book I'm working on about the whole behavior system of what I call 'pigs in cyberspace', I go by a gender neutral moniker and let people assume that I'm male.

Although I've got some friends who are guys who get harassed by the PIC's.

Here are two examples for your amusement and bemusement (parentheses indicate my censoring):

myprivateinterlude: < smiles warmly in your direction, hoping you'll notice
mrs_robinson: good morning
myprivateinterlude: < sits shyly in the corner, fidgeting with my thin pale blue cotton collar, two big blue velvety eyes closely watching you from across the other side of the room
mrs_robinson: < wonders what sort of drugs the weirdo staring at me is on>


meswithcam: hey there i have a challege you might be interested in
mrs_robinson: oh? do tell

this should be good...

meswithcam: how long do you think it would take you to get a guy (excited)with only your voice without him touching his (male organ) in any way?

Mostly I get the same questions from PIC's, over and over:


Do you like younger men? My replying 'No' always confuses them, how could anyone like an entire demographic group?
How young do you like your younger men? I usually reply 'medium rare' to this one.
Are you feeling naughty? the last time I felt 'naughty' was when I was busted for some childish misbehavior as a toddler.
Do you want to cam2cam/cyber/engage in phone sex? Two words: fat chance

Mrs. R., you always CRACK ME UP!!!:D I'm going to use that one, "medium rare"!

Naill, I was laughing reading your post. I thought the guy was going to end up being a total fag! I watched an episode of Drew Carey, and Oswald was hanging out with a gay guy and didn't even know it. The guy was buying him clothes, dinner, etc., and finally the "gal pal" (forget her name) said, "Oh my God, Oswald, you're DATING this guy!" It was really funny.

I have had experiences here, where I was in the Ageless Chat Room and guys have immediately private chatted me and started asking personal questions. My response was always the same: "I'm engaged. I'm here just for some friendly, platonic chat." If they continued, I just ignored their messages and chatted with the others in the room.

IRISHMAN (remember him?) still sends me funny message now and then, but other than that, I don't correspond with men. I DID correspond with Walker way back when he first came here, and he wanted me to send him a pic, but I didn't. I was mainly interested in his life, because it was so different than mine. Actually, Gabriel and I have exchanged some PM's, but he's a really decent guy. John715 PM'd me and I sent him a short answer (now I'm sorry I did!) but I think most guys at this site are respectful of women, and if they know someone's taken, they don't pursue them. I think that's really nice. :)

Originally posted by Polly
Mrs. R., you always CRACK ME UP!!!:D I'm going to use that one, "medium rare"!



Feel free. I've found that replying with a total non-sequitur like that takes the wind out of their sails.

My most obnoxious reply:

HornyYahooGuy: Do you like younger men?
Moi: Yes, with fava beans and a nice Chianti.

I also get a lot of rather creepy PM's and emails from men my age and much older looking to pretend via role-lay they are YM and I'm the cougar/mrs robinson/milf of their fantasies. Or they think that regardless of anything, they are really what I need in my life. They have already made all sorts of assumptions and have convinced themselves that I'm living some sort of porn film life, or that I'm sexually dissatisfied.

The response they get just before I add them to my ignore or block list:

"You have just won an all-expenses paid one-way trip to fabulous Ignore-land!"

Yahoo's chatrooms used to be a rich trolling ground for funny conversations with pigs in cyberspace, but it's grown rather stale recently.

and was very naive when I first began the foray into the world of chat hell. After being hacked, stalked and sexually harassed by someone I had met in chat, I decided like Brandon to get rid of that name. So I tried again, but this time with a gender neutral one and it did sorta work, but I had a hard time finding intelligent people who just wanted to talk. And I also often found myself feeling very sorry for those people who chose risque names that promised the moon (pardon the pun) on either the giving or receiving end. And one thing I also noticed (as well as been told by male friends), the time of day is another factor for the a/s/l to "hit the fan" as women and men from other countries enter hoping to connect with someone who will "bring them over here" for a better life. Needlessto say, I don't go in them any more unless I go to a computer help room or the like. But now a new type of trolling hit me this week. A man pmed me out of the blue, noting I was online and in Central FLorida as he looked thru the member directory. First I freaked out, thinking like I had been violated, but then I decided to pull up his profile for I liked his moniker, and when I saw he was a researcher in Asian cultures, I thought , what the heck...maybe I can find out some interesting info from him! Well, it went great for about 15 minutes and then....he asked me if I was familiar with Tantric sex....and hell's bells, let's say it went downhill very quickly from there and I had to iggy him. So then I had to go fix that loophole in my profile. Sheesh... It is getting to be very scarey out there! HEY forget out there!!! It is even in your own home!

Originally posted by brandon1980
try the yahoo bdsm rooms(where having a thin blue collar means something entirely different~ )


I've been there, done that, and I basically end up saying the same things over and over to wannabe dominant males who expect that their alleged dominant status means all women want nothing more than to submit to them.

I have gotten some good content out of those discussions, but after awhile, nothing new. I'll keep poking around, eventually I'll strike a fresh vein of PIC's and get enough content to finish the collection.

Originally posted by Powerpuffgirl
I once years ago put an ad up saying I was a religous Christian and looking for a serious relationship (snip)... One guy said he was a Christian and that his ex-gf and him liked to go to orgies together


OMG! (snicker) Let's have a look at that one again:

He's a devoted Christian who participates in sex orgies?!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!:D :D :D

I'm wondering exactly what church THIS guy attends...Oh wait...I think I know: Ah, yes it's one where the altar wall has a painting of a big upside-down pentagram with a picture of a goat's head in the middle of it, and where the clergy and congregation wear robes and animal masks while reciting "The Lord's Prayer" backwards before they sing along with the music of Marilyn Manson as it's played on the organ.

Seriously though. If these guys are gonna lie on top of everything else in their pathetic attempts to try get whatever they're after, then they should at least try to make up lies that are believable! Hey, don't get me wrong -- Christians are human too and I'm sure even the most devoted among them have their quirks and kinks just like everyone else. But one thing I'm pretty sure they don't do is engage in swinging sex at parties with about fifty or so others or if they did...well I don't think it's the kind of thing they'd want too many others to know about -- especially not another fellow Christian they don't yet know and want to get to know better. Almost as stupid as that "cop" xmasbaby met online. Almost, but not quite.



More to say on this whole thread. Stay tuned for another post.

N,
It hit the nail right on the head. For those of us who have about 3 ads out there looking for Mr. Right, yes, we indeed weed thru letters each day; many of them from guys who are gushing. The frightening part is not the gush, it is the reaction to the gush when we go back with, 'thanks for the note, you are not my match, but wish you the best...' I have received hate mail, to the point of having to block the person, stalking online to the point of blocking person's im's, as well as viruses. Have in the past two years gotten three viruses that have either stolen my password each day or frozen my computer or gotten into the mailboxes of friends. That is the frightening part. The part where I have to call the server the virus came from, change my handle, and deal with authorities. That has been the panic. Because anyone who does send viruses that steal passwords, might be the type to go beyond that. Hadley

Originally posted by HadleyManassas
N,
I have received hate mail, to the point of having to block the person, stalking online to the point of blocking person's im's, as well as viruses. Have in the past two years gotten three viruses that have either stolen my password each day or frozen my computer or gotten into the mailboxes of friends. That is the frightening part. The part where I have to call the server the virus came from, change my handle, and deal with authorities. That has been the panic. Because anyone who does send viruses that steal passwords, might be the type to go beyond that. Hadley

Totally scary, geesh I have been on aol for way over 8 years and have never got hate mail or a virus or password stolen or called authorities!!!
I better be more careful I guess
:D

OMG!:(

And to think, I originally brought this up as a topic that would generate a few good laughs. (which it did) But it just goes to show you there's a very fine line between a dweeb and a total f--king psycho and THAT is anything but funny.

Hadley, that must have been a truly unsettling experience. Thank you for bumping up this old topic I started long ago. But people need to be aware of the dangers and take every and any precaution for their own safety.

Niall

only the gov't and the airlines were using them. Then Compuserve opened the doors for the public in '94 and only the business people and intellectuals at the univ. level bothered to use them or folks like family that was tweeked by the novelty of talking to others aboard in a flash. When AOL brought it to the public arena in '96, the flood gates were opened so to speak and by '98 the face of who was using the PC had changed...now in 2003 with terrorism hitting home, it has and can be used against Americans as targets of spite. That is the main point I wanted to make. It does bring out those who are into weapons as using it as a weapon. H.

Sheesh, ya'll are making me get the heebie-geebies about being single again after 15yr marriage! lol ..... I just wanted to add a note to this, that in my younger years when internet was not around, the freaks were out then too!

I was always a looker I guess, and outgoing personality. I liked to dance and frequented bars for the dancing and possibility of meeting someone, not so much for getting drunk or laid. Well, let me tell you.... the weirdos were always able to find me within 2 seconds flat! I had men within 5 minutes of conversation at the bar say some of the damndest things to me. Just like the internet takes inhibitions away, so does alcohol. And I got some doozies before just asking some guy to dance!

I know it's ten times worse in the cyberworld, but as a reminder that society didn't suddenly churn out the freaks when internet got popular. I will never forget some of the horrible scary things said to me when I prowled alot. Like "hey, you got some nice boobs... why don't you shake em for me and see if I get hard!" LOL .... ok enough reliving the nightmares!

Honestly, I had a few stalkers in real life too! Nothing too dangerous, but then again..... I had a guardian angel protecting many times. Like the guy that found out where I worked and showed up there every day with flowers for 3 months straight..... and he was married! /shivers

Anywho, thanks for reminder of what is out there and hope everyone stays smart and stays safe when exploring the world of cyber or the real one.

Peace
Gypsy

Many kudos to you for summing up universal female thoughts here...when will a male defend female virtues....??? Is there such a creature any longer? One can count on one's fingers the number of males that have done so. Hadley

They are out there, my y/m and I were playing an online game months before we got romantically attached. One of things that attracted me to him was the fact that he was always protecting my virtue in the game.

The game is a huge online community of all types of age, race, etc.... and inevitablly we'd be in a group killing monsters and some punk would make a remark to me where others could hear. My honey is only 18, but was always quick to put them in their place and demand they respect the lady in the group.

He also forced me to demand respect for myself from not only people in the game, but my own abusive soon to be ex husband. There are men out there that still feel a woman is to be treated with respect and dignity. Just have to weed them out of the numerous freaks, pervs and assholes that run amok in this society! hehe

"when will a male defend female virtues....??? Is there such a creature any longer? One can count on one's fingers the number of males that have done so." -- Hadley


Wow, I hope i never become THIS jaded.

Until men start telling other men that their neanderthal behavior is unacceptable, it'll never stop.
Whenever a man hears another man demeaning a woman or bragging about "nailing" her or whatever form the disrespect takes... if he laughs along with it or keeps quiet, he's giving his tacit approval of this sort of bad behavior.
It's just like not saying anything when you hear a racist joke, or a joke about gay people. It shows the offender that their behavior is ok by you. Men who don't speak up when other men treat women badly, are giving their approval.
It won't change until MEN start doing something about it.

~Val

...and here I am holding this great big stick, but somehow I can't stop myself.

I've followed this thread along for several days with interest, because I wanted to see what the women's perspective was on the whole situation.

I've had experiences similar to what Niall described in the initial post of this thread:

I use this same nickname in other chat forums -- which, apparently, is gender-neutral enough that the resident horndogs wanna carpet-bomb me with "a/s/l?" in private chat windows immediately on entering the room. Usually I just close the window. A handful of times I've responded with "male", then --shoop!-- no more conversation. No, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what guys like that are after.

So...while I can't claim to have walked a mile in anyone's shoes, or to understand what it's like for women to deal with that kind of treatment every day of their lives, I can at least sympathize.

Where the hairs start standing up on the back of my neck is when I get to the last few posts -- the ones about the need for men to "defend women's honor." On the face of it, that seems like a reasonable enough thing for women to expect from men.

But is it, really?

There's two contradictory arguments going on here, it seems. One one hand, women don't want to be treated like pieces of meat. More specifically, women want the basic respect and consideration and dignity that any human being deserves.

I agree completely; no argument there.

But, on the other hand: "defending women's honor?" Sure, it sounds like a noble ideal. But I think it runs counter to the that same idea of basic human respect in practice.

What it's referring to is chivalry, more or less. A code of conduct that, on its face is charming (opening doors for women, for example), but which is also based on the premise that women are not just the "fairer" sex but also the weaker one as well, and need such treatment as a matter of course.

That, I don't agree with.

I would offer as a counter-argument:

With any set of rights come corresponding responsibilities. You want to be taken seriously? Then you have to learn to stand on your own two feet. This isn't strictly limited to gender, if you think about it. For example, part of the transition to adulthood is in fact that same process of establishing self-sufficiency. I mean, admit it: how seriously do you take a teenager's opinions of "how the world works" when they've never held a job or lived on their own?

In my opinion, the lack of men rushing to a woman's aid isn't motivated by "a subtle misogyny", as Raven suggested in one of her posts, but rather by a realization that the role of women in society is something that's been rewritten and continues to be even as we speak.

So...you want to be treated like any other person? That's fine. Again, no argument there. But by definition, "like any other person" means you shouldn't then ask for or expect special treatment.

Every right carries with it a responsibility. That's the trade-off. And you might not like every development when those rights are exercised, but again...that's the trade-off.

What a guy ... :) How to dissect there RWH ...

Princessdy

Husky, I think when you say:
"So...you want to be treated like any other person? That's fine. Again, no argument there. But by definition, "like any other person" means you shouldn't then ask for or expect special treatment."
...you've missed the point entirely.

What women would like is exactly that. TO BE TREATED LIKE ANY OTHER PERSON! Instead we're subjected to a barrage of sexual come-ons simply because we're female! We're getting "special" treatment all right. Unwanted, offensive, and at times, frightening.

Absolutely NONE of these guys who harrass women online do this to men. It's ONLY aimed at women. Sure there are trolls everywhere. But you're not under sexual assault every time YOU go online. Any woman going online will be subjected to it.

It's not a question of wanting some sort of special treatment. It's a matter of only wanting to be treated respectfully, not as some sort of target for any and every guy's sexual frustration. We have been successfully fending these morons off all along. We don't need you to do it for us. It would be nice if you (men in general, not just you, Husky :)) would stop sitting silently on the sidelines watching and saying nothing.

EVERY time I hear a racist joke or gay joke I speak up. Because I'm white and I'm straight. I'M THE ONE who has to tell the person who told the joke it's offensive. If enough people spoke up, eventually bigots would realize their behavior is not only NOT justified, it's also NOT acceptable to the rest of the world. Only then will it stop.

Men need to be the ones to teach other men to respect women. You can either sit in silent acceptance of bad behavior, or you can speak out against it. It's your choice.

~Val

I have spoken up when I've heard women making nasty generalized cracks about men in public. I've also warned women to be respectful of men's feelings too.
It goes both ways.

~Val

Originally posted by SherwoodSpirit
Absolutely NONE of these guys who harrass women online do this to men. It's ONLY aimed at women. Sure there are trolls everywhere. But you're not under sexual assault every time YOU go online

Not true. I personally have been harrassed by gay or bi men in chat rooms, even after telling them I'm; a)male, b)straight, c)"not interested so kindly **** off" :) Harsh, yes. But subtle hints don't seem to work very often. And it's a major reason why I don't use "telepersonals" systems anymore. It happened twice as often on those, even when I had recorded an ad stating very clearly who I was and what I was looking for. (I wonder how it is male callers manage to get on the female side of those systems since those things are usually free for women so they take measure to verify that a caller is female, but I digress.)

Overall though, Val is right to say it's certainly more of an annoyance for women than men, and that everyone, male and female alike, need to recognize this behaviour for what it is and make it clear that it's unwanted and unappreciated. Regarding Raven's somewhat rhetorical question as to why men don't defend women more often: I don't know...some things aren't always clear, but it seems likely to me that many men just don't realize how offensive this can be for a lot of women. And those that do, might be reluctant to say or do anything about it in certain situations,especially those in public places involving strangers where they might not get involved for reasons like "it's none of my business", which is pure bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Or there could be somewhat more legitimate reasons like not getting involved out of a fear for their own personal safety, which is something else I know of firsthand when I once witnessed a group of young men verbally harrassing a young woman in a mall food court. Another man bravely intervened and told them off and they left the woman alone, but these guys were real aggressive macho types who then focused their efforts on they guy who dared to challenge them and a shouting and insulting confrontation ensued which I'm sure would have escalated to physical assault had four mall security officers not intervened. Raven says misogyny might be the underlying reason, which is an argument that's not with out its merits. Still, I have to take issue with the use of the word misogyny in this way, since it's a pretty strong word and therefore not one to bandy around and use casually like this, because it could mean the word loses any practical significance if it gets overused in this way.

Oh and that reminds me: here's bonus question for y'all: we know the word misogyny refers to male hatred of women, but how many of us know the word for the inverse term for female hatred of men.(of the top of your heads without consulting another source, be honest no cheating now;)!) In fact, how many of us are aware that such a word even exists in the English language. Interestingly, you still won't find it in many standard dictionaries, even the revised and updated editions that came out within the last ten years. Even more interesting is that you can find an entry for misogyny even some pretty old editions.

Niall, I thought about including something about guys being hit on by guys. hehe I KNOW it happens! :) I didn't because it's just not as pervasive as the guys hitting on women thing.

There are always exceptions to every situation you could use as an example.
Certainly I wouldn't advocate someone risking physical harm by challenging strangers. You'd have to use your judgement there.

But among friends or aquaintances, that's especially where your opinion will have weight. If you know about someone treating a member of another group (be it because of gender, race, or whatever) with disrespect and you don't agree with that treatment... it behooves you to speak out against it.

The world would be a happier place for everyone if people spoke out against injustice... in whatever form it takes.

~Val

PS. I think the reason the word "misogyny" is used more commonly than "misandry" is because the practice is far more common. Women have really only been expressing their anger toward men openly in the last 30 years or so. Before that it was very uncommon.

The only reason I knew the word, "misandry" off the top of my head is that I just looked it up last week. :D
I had been using "misogyny" a lot and had been wracking my brains for its opposite, which I used to know!
I have this huge vocabulary and I'm old! I can only access so much of it at once! hehe

Aphasically yours,
~Val

Originally posted by SherwoodSpirit
I have spoken up when I've heard women making nasty generalized cracks about men in public. I've also warned women to be respectful of men's feelings too.
It goes both ways.

~Val

I was going to say percisely this in my previous post, albeit in my usual pompous and pretentious and over written way. But since my post was already long winded enough as it is I decided to save it for another time. But I think it's more fitting and it's to your credit that you brought it up instead.:)

And I should point out that I've always felt by the same token, or if you perfer, the other side of the coin, is that men who are going to speak out in defense of their gender (I loathe the term "men's rights" because of its connotations)have a responsibility to give equal attention to issues that affect women and need to be just as vocal on these, because the worst thing for gender politics as far as I'm concerned, is to keep having the pendulum constantly swinging back and forth from one extreme to the other. There are few books that have been inspiring and as inspirational to me as two written by Warren Farrell, one called Why Men Are The Way They Are the other is The Myth Of Male Power. His book articulated and put into words many things that spoke directly to me and my experiences and thoughts, and I was so glad that someone finally did. These are two books I would say are mandatory reading to anyone interested in gender politics. (Another one would be Backlashby Susan Faludi)

What Farrell did took real courage, considering the arguments and evidence he advanced in themselves weren't new, but before then had only been used by true misogynists of the religious/political right: the likes of Jerry Falwell and "The Promise Keepers" A truly frightening bunch and a wolf in sheeps clothing. By making these arguments, they're stealing a validity for their own politcal agenda they don't deserve. But Farrell was able to take these same arguments and put them into a different context and perspective -- making it very clear that his intent was not to undermine the real grievances of the women's movement, and still continues to argue passionately for very real issues and inequalities that still affect women, and IMNSHO every man worth his salt should do this as well. For example, every man who makes a case for offensive sexist stereotyping of men in the media, needs to realize and argue that there still continue to be many offensive and sexist stereotypes of women as well. (the latter haven't been eradicted, the only difference is feminism has made us more conscious of them)...and any man who complains about gender double standards where their gender has the short end of the stick, needs to be equally adamant about those where women have it...I could go on and on, but I won't belabour this. You get the point and now it's time for me to get off my soapboax and get back to work.But as husky said, every right carries with it a responsibiilty

I'm new to the site, and new to this thread, so hopefully my comments aren't of the dead horse-and-bullwhip variety...

I'm wondering what the women's experiences are outside the cyber-world, in bars, cafes, or any public place where, it seems, the simple fact of carrying two x-chromosomes provides an invitation for men's advances? And how does meeting people on-line compare?

I've worked behind bars (of the drinking, not incarcerating, variety) for several years and I've witnessed men make more lewd comments, indecent proposals, transparent (and tacky) come-ons, and rude, obnoxious attempts to pick-up women (how easily a wedding ring slides from the finger to the pocket when on the prowl) than I can remember. On several occasions, I've even booted men from the bar, so aggressive and threatening were their attempts (and, keep in mind, these have not been seedy dives, but chic, trendy, and, ostensibly, upscale places--not to argue any connections to class). The world from the other (and, usually, sober) side of the bar can be a twisted trip through the looking glass.

I think a part of the problem lies in the way that masculinity is imagined in our society. The common denominator in all the obnoxious and aggressive displays I've seen men put on is ego, a sense that the measure of a man is with the women on his arm and the bulge (wallet and other) in his pocket. These men see women as trophies, emblems of their own value as men, and leverage against the claims of other men for that place as alpha male.

I wonder, though, how many men truly buy into these ideals. There's a level of insecurity involved here, a fear of stepping out of assigned gender roles, of being seen as "less of a man" (think of the female genitalia men call each other as an insult). And it's certainly not easy to escape these roles, for there are a lot of women who buy into them and expect just as much.

I'm not making excuses, but I do think that, while women's roles have loosened, somewhat, since the seventies, men have yet to experience more social freedom to break out of the misogynistic masculine stereotypes.

A long-winded first post for a newbie, I know, but I thought I'd share some of my thoughts on this interesting topic...


Best,
alchemy

....i think that whole "a/s/l" business should be banned....it's annoying.....why does it matter?!?! :rolleyes:

Welcome to Ageless. :)

What a remarkable post. It takes a true and objective observer of humans and human nature to see thru those behaviors and into the motivations behind them. I think you have the real issue nailed down completely.

I too believe there are a LOT of men who not only feel uncomfortable with the stifling gender roles men are assigned but would also like to escape them. I think they just have no idea how many others there are like them, number one, and number two, have little idea of what to do to precipitate change. We have so few positive role models for men to follow who break away from the mold. So many just blindly follow the herd. It takes great courage and strength of character to swim against the tide.

My suggestion of not sitting on the fence quietly when you see others engaging in behaviors you don't approve of is only one possibility in a myriad of possibilities in ways to change the status quo.

Alchemy, I'm glad to welcome you in joining the ranks of the other men of Ageless who are seekers after truths and thinkers like Niall, Redandwhitehusky, Brandon, and too many others to list.

~Val

Originally posted by kittykat
....i think that whole "a/s/l" business should be banned....it's annoying.....why does it matter?!?! :rolleyes:

i'm totally with ya there! especially on ageless where they could take 2 seconds and look up your profile. but seriously, if a guy can't even engage in an intelligent conversation long enough to glean this information then he can just forget it. several people laugh at me in the chat room here because i can get a tad sarcastic when some youngguy69 type comes in and starts in with a/s/l???? :P

it's a real pet peave for me though. i go by "jaye" or "j" in a lot of instances and thus have a pretty gender-neurtral name, but if you watch my conversation for a few minutes it becomes pretty readily appearant. hell, if you want a quick answer just call me a guy, i'll correct you in short measure and be less offended than a/s/l-ing me.

seems to me really it's just a ploy to pick out the "target" females to harass (ala the theme of this thread) with the least possible lead in time anyway. if somebody wants to get to know people, they do so. :)

-j

I just wanted to thank Val and RaVen for the welcomes and thoughtful responses.


alchemy

You guys are definitely a good read as we say in the publishing world. So I am going to react to my notes that I have taken regarding bits and pieces jotted down from your threads.
1) avoiding chat rooms lets you avoid viruses, spam, prostitutes of both sexes, cheaters, insincere predators, and out of town travelling salesmen and ladies with other things on their minds besides home and hearth...
2)dating only locals weeds out the dweebs that are rebounding so intently they will blow 1,000.00+ on hopping a jet just to get laid for a weekend...ugh...
3) the net has helped us all become computer savvy but hurt in social skills as you have discussed...men no longer know how to woo and win the hearts of fair maidens, which folks, is what most women want...to be won and courted and pursued by men but with respect and charm...honest charm, not deceit...and many women no longer have learned how to say wait, hold on, and have turned themselves into those mindless, gullible, victims not using any forethought...or common sense...forgetting that not all men have your best interests at heart...
4) the cops and lawyers and those with power seat jobs, many, yes , have abused their power/if indeed they are cops or lawyers/abused it on the net...if they stalk or become angry because they don't know how to take 'no' for an answer...they do view women as possessions, yes, and conquests, bragging rights, and this attitude does lead to abuse ea. year...these types tend to be very selfish not unselfish...
5) 8 of my gf's have married off the net /aol ads and are happy...
6)unfortunately, there are males and females alike that have predator-type personalities...as far as bar behavior, I have seen the most predatory personalities exhibited not by white or black American males and females but by transplants from other countries are working really hard at getting visas renewed in the US...ie Russian/Slavic females in DC bars...to cite just one kind...
6) I have to laugh at the a/s/l statement...it is speaks volumes for today's culture...those of us who got the net in '94, then began dating it in '95...have seen the underbelly of the net world...it has evolved into a growing web of wackos who have made it a means of torment rather than learning...ie: all the hackers with viruses and spam...
7) women are the weaker sex in physical strength as far as lifting things...men just have more muscle mass...I have to err ont he side of biology...when a man falls in love, his desire to protect what he loves (the fair sex) is mammoth...can you tell I am a romantic at heart...?
8) yes, telepersonals can open the doors up to posers or transgendered folks...and interesting new twist in your society...how to handle them...
9) bars and clubs can be fun if gone to with friends and no expectations except dancing to the music with maybe some decent dancers...but it is and can be a crap shoot and just a place where men and women on business trips from out of town get a local to fall for the one-nighter...so weeding thru the out of town business suits can be the challenge...
This is a great thread/post/and everyone here has insights into society at large...and the workings of it , what makes it tick...I think we call that sociology...
Hadley
4)

Originally posted by HadleyManassas
1) avoiding chat rooms lets you avoid viruses, spam, prostitutes of both sexes, cheaters, insincere predators, and out of town travelling salesmen and ladies with other things on their minds besides home and hearth...


Actually, i met my ex husband (even though we divorced, he's a perfectly normal, good guy), and SherwoodSpirit (my closest friend) in "chat rooms."

I have never, and will never use AOL nor it's smutty, spammy, virus/trojan ridden excuse for chat. Yahoo is pretty damn bad too. i've been on the net since '92 or '93, and over the years have found many areas of the net that are meant for real, meaningful, intelligent conversation and good, normal people. i met SherwoodSpirit on a an IRC network for programmers, and i think the most smut it sees is her and i randomly passing around snogs. :P

if you hang out in seedy dives in bad neighborhoods... well... you know what you'll get. the same is true in the online world. lets not damn the whole thing because people end up in stupid places and wonder why they get bad responses.


2)dating only locals weeds out the dweebs that are rebounding so intently they will blow 1,000.00+ on hopping a jet just to get laid for a weekend...ugh...


and leaves only the rebounding dweebs that are too cheap to travel for it? :) men are men, they'll be jerks near or far, and that's fact.


9) bars and clubs can be fun if gone to with friends and no expectations except dancing to the music with maybe some decent dancers...but it is and can be a crap shoot and just a place where men and women on business trips from out of town get a local to fall for the one-nighter...so weeding thru the out of town business suits can be the challenge...


same for online talking, really. think about it.


-j of the Partnership for an Ignorance Free Internet


PS: ok, so i made that PIFI bit up, but i really do get sick of everybody blaming everything on the net. you're still talking to real people, the same people you'd meet if you happened to live locally to them. i'm just sick of online sensationalism about how the net is filled with perverts. it does not exist in a void, after all, they have to exist in the "real" world to get here, yanno. like i said.. hang out in seedy dive bars, and you'll get what they have to offer same as sleezy aol/yahoo/whatever chat rooms.

Amen to the PS Jaye ... Amen to that ...

Princessdy

do dive bars? I am referring to Hilton, Marriott, Sheraton pricey 'dance clubs' for singles outside of DC...that cater to singles in DC and Northern VA who love music and of course of the quaint bars that cater to local musicians with original music...these aren't 'dives' ...but azzholes drive Benzes, too...pc's have been around for a while, since '82, but didn't the internet only come about in 1993 when the gov't developed it for tracking planes, airlines, covert operations, etc. and was made available to the public via Compuserve back in early '94...originally mostly professionals used the net, and once the floodgates opened with AOL in '96, the way was paved for the underlings to climb on board. Yahoo mostly seems to attract substance users, unfortunately, to their chat rooms. AOL seems to attract a ton so swingers to theirs. Newbies to the net world often stumble in and fall prey to this. The net has changed life by speeding it up. Thus, speeding up the natural flow of male and female relationships that once were at a much slower pace. I don't know that that speed has helped our society. I hear girls at work talking about how they have '5 bfs in one week...', after listening I realize they are referring to online chat buddies that are just guys who have changed their minds about going out for a date...syntax has changed also, so have concepts of what relationships are and should be or have been in the past...as well as what is acceptable behavior and appropriate. What I am seeing now is a back lash of females who have been on the net for a while as myself and are sick of the inability of men to communicate appropriately with women who have minds. This is bothersome, alarming especially in light of the fact that they think it is quite ok...'hi , my name is joe, great day to cuddle ' is a turn off not on...but unfortunatley , joe just doens't get it before he turns into a net 'cancel' button and a block comes up...Hadley

Originally posted by HadleyManassas
do dive bars? I am referring to Hilton, Marriott, Sheraton pricey 'dance clubs' for singles outside of DC...that cater to singles in DC and Northern VA who love music and of course of the quaint bars that cater to local musicians with original music...these aren't 'dives'


the dive comment was an analogy towards the types of sleazy chat rooms (aol/yahoo) i was talking about, not meant towards your hanging out in bars comment, as noted by the first context i used it in.


pc's have been around for a while, since '82, but didn't the internet only come about in 1993 when the gov't developed it for tracking planes, airlines, covert operations, etc. and was made available to the public via Compuserve back in early '94...originally mostly professionals used the net, and once the floodgates opened with AOL in '96, the way was paved for the underlings to climb on board.


i really hate to digress into geekdom, but i really do know where i was and what i was doing and during what year;

technically the first PCs were available as early as 1977 with the TRS/80. i assume you mean the commodore 64 released in 1982.

the internet, however, was born of the government project ARPANET in the late 60s. by the late 70s many scientific and research institutes, as well as universities were connected. as such, originally, students and scientists used the net. IRC, the protocol i mentioned, came into existence in 1988.

Delphi seems to have come on in 1992, and Compuserve, AOL, and Prodigy in 1995. (note: the "public" had access via universities and institutions for some time prior, but no commercial providers had been available). in 1993 the first graphical web browser, mosiac, was created. perhaps that's what you're thinking of. contrary to popular belief the web is not the internet, and many of us used the internet happily for quite some time sans web, or via text browsers like lynx.

i realize this may seem irrelevant, but my point is that the net didn't create the problem. the problem is inherant in humanity, and the net, once populated with vast hoards of the general public, reflects such.

my point is also that you should do a quick web search on facts and such before telling people they dont know what they're talking about, or assuming everybody used compuserve or aol or some such cruft to get online.


What I am seeing now is a back lash of females who have been on the net for a while as myself and are sick of the inability of men to communicate appropriately with women who have minds. This is bothersome, alarming especially in light of the fact that they think it is quite ok...'hi , my name is joe, great day to cuddle ' is a turn off not on...but unfortunatley , joe just doens't get it before he turns into a net 'cancel' button and a block comes up...

i'm sorry but i still disagree. i'm sick of jerkoff men and their inability to communicate with intelligence too, only i find that they show up everywhere, not just online. in fact, i find that looking in appropriate places online i'm more likely to find a nice, intelligent guy to talk to than if i'd hit half the "classy" bars in town.

i have no idea why you cling to the idea that jerks only exist online, or that somehow the net has bred this behavoir. it manifests differently, sure. you get "a/s/l??" and "wanna cyber???" instead of the usual sleezeball laying on some cheezeball pickup line or just flat out copping feels whenever he gets the chance. perverts have been around a lot longer than the internet, i promise you, and they will proliferate their wiley ways no matter what medium or context you place them in.

-j

(now seriously considering starting up PIFI) ;)

This has been an interesting thread. I had a few questions/comments about some of the things I've seen posted here.

First, I have to agree with jaye on a lot of points. Although there are a lot of jerks online, are there more online than in real life? My guess is that there's not. I think there are people who use the anonymity of the net world to be jerks in a way that they're too meek to be in the real world. On the other hand, I'll bet it's offset by guys who are willing to use that same anonymity to show their softer side that they keep hidden in the real world. To all the ladies who have received the opening "a/s/l" or "tell me about your b@@bs", how many men have either opened with something unoffensive or never even said a word to? I'll bet it's a significantly larger group. Offensive behavior is far more notable than decent, behavior.

I'd like to address one quote. I hate to single out one, but I just wanted to point out a subtle point I've seen in some posts.

Originally posted by Raven

And, another thing...there are many men I respect who are violently attacked by women either physically or mentally...either through the legal system or in some other manner (divorce issues is a biggie). All quite disdainful might I add. These women I consider...women in drag. I don't think they replicate the true meaning of feminity...they certainly don't represent my ideal of the feminine. Quite frankly...they disgust me.


This quote suggests to me that men are supposed to act aggressively, to "violently attack... either physically or mentally". Aggressive women are described as "women in drag". Thus it's masculine to be aggressive. If this were true, uncouth acts like a/s/l would seem to be a natural, aggresive male activity. Every good predator evaluates which prey is best captured.

If aggressiveness defines masculinity, I think it's a bit unfair to complain about such behaviors from men, just as it might be considered a bit unfair for men to complain about the emotional moodiness of women due to their cycles.

Other posts have suggested that men are supposed to go after the women - take the aggressive role in courting. The reality is that some will be too aggressive. Just remember that you're complaining about something that is quite similar to something that you want. Everything has a cost. In this case, you end up with some dumb, aggressive guys. At least you can weed them out on the first line. A benefit online is that, unless you really messed up, they don't know what you look like, write down your license plate number, or be in a situation to phsyically abuse you.


And I'd like to add a couple of notes on the technical side of jaye's last post. Although Delphi and Compuserve weren't on the net until the 90s, they offered similar services on a private basis nationwide (USA) in the early 80s. AOL was an almost identical service in 91 as it was when it went online in 95, with the exception of being able to browse websites. Also, modern chat would probably really be a cultural outgrowth of BBSing that was popular through the early 90s. For those who don't know, BBSes were computers with modems that you could call. They usually had areas for messages, files, and games. If the system had more than one modem, it might support chatting.

Originally posted by GuyInLA
Although Delphi and Compuserve weren't on the net until the 90s, they offered similar services on a private basis nationwide (USA) in the early 80s. AOL was an almost identical service in 91 as it was when it went online in 95, with the exception of being able to browse websites. Also, modern chat would probably really be a cultural outgrowth of BBSing that was popular through the early 90s. For those who don't know, BBSes were computers with modems that you could call. They usually had areas for messages, files, and games. If the system had more than one modem, it might support chatting.

yah. somebody else also pointed out that i had ignored pre-net chat in my little history/chronology thing. :) it could well be that years of BBSing are what gave me my positive outlook on talking to and meeting people online originally. although there were the "echos", fidonet and the like (where each BBS called another in a long string in order to relay messages over many combined computers), BBSes mostly catered to the local community, and as such i made a ton of good friends from them. there was a true community feel, and often we would hang out together socially, have get-togethers, etc.. even this web forum here is an offspring of ye olde BBS message boards. ;)

when i got on the internet, many of the old BBS communities were also migrating at the same time, and we maintained that sense of community as we mixed in with non-local groups. even though now the community is a lot more spread out, it's still there. some of the groups i'm involved with actually meet for big social events once a year or so. this lends a big sense of trust even in the mostly anonymous online world since near everybody in these communities has met and can be vouched for by at least 1 or 2 other people.

i'd also like to note that for the last 5+yrs i've worked out of my house as a programmer, and that nearly all of my business has been conducted via the internet. from talking on IM and email to employers and clients to the actual delivery of product, i rarely have to step outside to conduct business. i've also procured many jobs and contracts by means of the social network i've developed online.

what's my point in all this? simple. the internet is not a big, bad, scary place full of psycho perverts. my point is that the net is just like anything else in the world, and the type of experience you have is a direct result of the company you keep. the net is a big place, and it has it's slums, red light districts, criminals and other less savory content. however, there's also many equivalents to the "upper class neighborhoods" and a great many people function socially and in business there with few complaints.

i'd also like to note that by Hadley's email address it appears she uses AOL, which is notorious for spam, porn, viruses, scams and trashy chat rooms, so this would be a prime example of throwing yourself in front of a firing squad and then complaining that you got shot! seriously.

-j

Now that must explain why all the men are so out of control on AOL and no matter what their profession, high or low, educated or uneducated, they feel it is open season on all females and that no holds barred, any opening topic is ok...So do tell, Computer Gurus for Ageless, what is the best place to access for socializing with someone who is not a hot dog? Where can women talk with bright, sane, cultural, yet romantic men on the net who don't use the same trite,"Can I drive over?" lines [which in answer to one question is by far what is used 85% of the time on me in no time...sitting there minding my own business has nothing to do with anything]. Being old, 54, I have seen a change drastically in dating ...the older you get, the more you notice trends in society... the net has changed things...most men on AOl or Yahoo come on to most females not with tell me about what your hobbies are or another remotely objective, but immediately hop right into sex chat fantasies which have almost gotten to the point of being ludicrous and laughable...and no, I didn't select them to open their mouths to me...they are not my selected company...azzholes come in all garden varieties ...saying you want to avoid them and choosing not to is wishful thinking, it doesn't always happen that way...Give us some servers that offer more cultural and romantic, savvy and polite males. Thanks Hadley

I have ever seen on the net!
He is so dumb that I can't beleive I even wasted my time writting this cuz the stupid idiot is outta here very soon.
I wish people like this would get real jobs.

Originally posted by Nessa
well I like to chat so when I get a/s/l I respond in several ways
usually with No I'm sorry I don't use American Sign Language.



LOL!:D Pass that gem around.

For Hadley and others who mentioned pick up lines used IRL as well, here's one you can try the next some obnoxious guy is trying to pick you up in a bar -- the kind that can't take a hint and then asks for your phone number, to which you reply "Look it up, it's in the book." and he says "but how can I look it up if I don't know your name?" so you say "That's in the book too.";)

Originally posted by Niall
LOL!:D Pass that gem around.

For Hadley and others who mentioned pick up lines used IRL as well, here's one you can try the next some obnoxious guy is trying to pick you up in a bar -- the kind that can't take a hint and then asks for your phone number, to which you reply "Look it up, it's in the book." and he says "but how can I look it up if I don't know your name?" so you say "That's in the book too.";)

thanks :D

I have to say that this is scary in one way :

when i met the new guy (I'm not jinxing this with his name) online we started chatting a bit about what part of town I live in and he asked if I know of 'main street'* I said yeah that was up the street from me in my neighborhood I live on 'pepper street'*
He said his sister lives on main street. Kewl.

He had MY FIRST NAME and my street name not my address not my last name just my first name and the street address. Thankfully he's not a stalker and after a bit more talking he said he could find my phone number with just that information. I told him to go for it if he could find me I would buy coffee for our first date. My phone rang 10 minutes later........

I gotta call the phone company and fix that dang listing Nessa really is an uncommon name.



*(names have been changed to protect the not so innocent)