At what point do they stop being "vym"?

I am curious to see what most people think is the upper age limit for "vym".

Be honest! Don't just think, "Well, my fella just turned x years old, so I will say x minus one year is the upper age limit." ;) (I know I would be tempted to do that on some levels!)

Q - What does the UN mean by "youth," and how does this definition differ from that given to children?

A- The United Nations General Assembly defined ‘youth’, as those persons falling between the ages of 15 and 24 years inclusive. This definition was made for International Youth Year, held around the world in 1985. All United Nations statistics on youth are based on this definition, as illustrated by the annual yearbooks of statistics published by the United Nations system on demography, education, employment and health.

Within the category of "youth", it is also important to distinguish between teenagers (13-19) and young adults (20-24), since the sociological, psychological and health problems they face may differ.

So basically a VYM would be up to 24 yrs old. I agree. Of course some men are mature at 19, but 24 seems to be the age when you should have figured out what you want to do with your life. When I met my bf he was 23, I used to tell him that he was not an adult yet as per the UN.

Well, I chose 23, but without anything as official as the UN to support me. :p

I just looked back to myself and my friends at that age. We had graduated from college, some were getting married and getting pregnant, most had been working for a while already, everyone had been through several relationships. We were adults, living our lives. That was my perspective at 23.

Two years ago when I first met my guy, he was 26 going on 27. He often referred to himself as a "kid" and that really annoyed me. For one thing, he did it to excuse his own immature behavior sometimes. For another thing, I consider the late 20s to be definitely adulthood.... so grow up already!! In the last 2 years he HAS done a lot of growing up. He's just turning 29 now, and he's my man.

Here's an interesting quote about a man at age 28, from Thomas Hardy's "Far from the Madding Crowd"...

"He had just reached the time of life at which "young" is ceasing to be the prefix of "man" in speaking of one. He was at the brightest period of masculine growth, for his intellect and his emotions were clearly separated: he had passed the time during which the influence of youth indiscriminately mingles them in the character of impulse, and he had not yet arrived at the stage wherein they become united again, in the character of prejudice, by the influence of a wife and family. In short, he was twenty-eight, and a bachelor."

I voted for 25 because of my recent experience with a VYM that literally ended today. I'll save my baggage for another time and thread...doesn't seem appropriate here. :(

I voted for 25 because of my recent experience with a VYM that literally ended today. I'll save my baggage for another time and thread...doesn't seem appropriate here. :(
((((Hugs)))) I imagine how you must feel.

If I can ask a related question...

What are the definitions of an OW, OM, YW and YM?

Is there an age range for each?

Or is it something related to the age GAP?

If a man is 90 and his gf is 70 is he an OM and she a YW?

The way I understand it has to do more with the gap than with the actual age. We have had girls in their early 20's post their concerns about boys who are 18 or 19. In this case they are an OW.

The way I understand it has to do more with the gap than with the actual age. We have had girls in their early 20's post their concerns about boys who are 18 or 19. In this case they are an OW.

So a 20yo woman with a 19yo man makes her the OW and him the YM?

Hmmmmm... if this is so that means that even a one year age difference is enough to define who is the Y and who is the O?

So if a 90 year old man is with a 89 year old woman, he is the OM and she is the YW?

They stop being "vym" when:


They are responsible with/for finances, children, pets, etc.
They are full contributors to the household
They don't worry about their age or yours
They've cut the apron strings to mommy
They don't treat or expect you to be their mommy
They are concerned about the future, both yours and his
They act like a man and treat you like the woman they love
They stop wearing super hero underwear :)

LOL! great answer Bubblee:)

So a 20yo woman with a 19yo man makes her the OW and him the YM?

Hmmmmm... if this is so that means that even a one year age difference is enough to define who is the Y and who is the O?

So if a 90 year old man is with a 89 year old woman, he is the OM and she is the YW?

I believe that the OW/YM or OM/YW designations more specifically refer to age gaps of say 7-10 years or more. Generally, I would think that an age gap of 8 or more years starts to even have an real social significance, depending on the particular ages or stages of the individuals involved.

Situations where the number of years may not be an issue such as when one of the parties is a legal minor, I think may fall into another category (e.g. 16 and 20).

As for the 90 year old man and 89 year old woman, I'd say any age-gap they may have is the least of their worries. ;)

It really depends if you are talking about age standards or maturity standards IMO.

If I can ask a related question...

What are the definitions of an OW, OM, YW and YM?

Is there an age range for each?

Or is it something related to the age GAP?

If a man is 90 and his gf is 70 is he an OM and she a YW?

I define it as the gap. OW does not stand for "Old Woman," nor does YM stand for "Young Man;" etc. OW stands for Older Woman, YM for Younger Man; etc.

Doesn't matter how old either one of them are, if she is older than he is then she's the OW and he's the YM. Same with the OM/YW.

Damn . . . maybe that's why some of these relationships are getting so much negative feedback . . . people are thinking "Old" woman and "Young" man! :mad:

I define it as the gap. OW does not stand for "Old Woman," nor does YM stand for "Young Man;" etc. OW stands for Older Woman, YM for Younger Man; etc.

Doesn't matter how old either one of them are, if she is older than he is then she's the OW and he's the YM. Same with the OM/YW.

Damn . . . maybe that's why some of these relationships are getting so much negative feedback . . . people are thinking "Old" woman and "Young" man! :mad:

Don't know if anyone thinks the letters stand for "old" and "young" instead of older and younger, but if it is the gap, then we are still back to the question of how much of a gap.

"...if she is older than he is then she's the OW and he's the YM. Same with the OM/YW."

So you are saying (in answer to my previoious questions) that a one year gap is enough to define it as an O/Y relationship? And in my example of a 90yo man and an 89yo woman he is the OM and she is the YW?

Since this definition is central to what this site is about, and so many people use these terms, I think it's important to talk about. We can already see here that it means different things to different people.

They stop being "vym" when:


They are responsible with/for finances, children, pets, etc.
They are full contributors to the household
They don't worry about their age or yours
They've cut the apron strings to mommy
They don't treat or expect you to be their mommy
They are concerned about the future, both yours and his
They act like a man and treat you like the woman they love
They stop wearing super hero underwear


That would have made my friend old at 18!:D some kids just dont get a great childhood and homelife like in the commercials.

They stop wearing super hero underwear :)
That'll be never then will it? :p

Oh Bubbleee! Lets hope they NEVER stop wearing their superhero underwear! :eek:

They stop being "vym" when:


They are responsible with/for finances, children, pets, etc.
They are full contributors to the household
They don't worry about their age or yours
They've cut the apron strings to mommy
They don't treat or expect you to be their mommy
They are concerned about the future, both yours and his
They act like a man and treat you like the woman they love
They stop wearing super hero underwear :)


I think this is probably the best way to go, rather than putting a number on it. Each individual is going to be different.

I would also argue that circumstances also matter when it comes to things on that list too. For example, I'm not a full contributor to a household. I still live at home, I don't have very much choice because I only finished university a year ago and for the last year have been spending my time trying to put down the roots for what I want to do with the rest of my life. i.e. taking the opportunity to spend the last 5 months out of that year in Philly with my gf. When I was in Philly I tried to do stuff around the house. I decorated, assembled numerous pieces of furniture, did housework and looked after her daughter. Does that count? Lol.

Btw, I think I might have to go shopping for some new underwear. :p

They stop being "vym" when:


They are responsible with/for finances, children, pets, etc.
They are full contributors to the household
They don't worry about their age or yours
They've cut the apron strings to mommy
They don't treat or expect you to be their mommy
They are concerned about the future, both yours and his
They act like a man and treat you like the woman they love
They stop wearing super hero underwear :)



I LOVE this answer (and not just because it puts Devon squarely OUTSIDE of the vym category... but it does and its worth noting to all the many, many discounters out there). I selected 23... because that used to be the def we used around here... it has expanded to 25 recently... I won't be the least bit surprised to see it expanded even more as time goes by. It is all too easy to lay bad partner choices at the foot of one's age.

Don't know if anyone thinks the letters stand for "old" and "young" instead of older and younger, but if it is the gap, then we are still back to the question of how much of a gap.

"...if she is older than he is then she's the OW and he's the YM. Same with the OM/YW."

So you are saying (in answer to my previoious questions) that a one year gap is enough to define it as an O/Y relationship? And in my example of a 90yo man and an 89yo woman he is the OM and she is the YW?

Since this definition is central to what this site is about, and so many people use these terms, I think it's important to talk about. We can already see here that it means different things to different people.

There are different schools of thought on how many years really constitute a gap. Some people will tell you 5, some say 10 and various other numbers. I was a year older than my ex-husband and I certaintly didn't feel there was any gap there, so I think it has to be more than 1. Woman have been marrying men for centuries 3, 10, 15 years older than they are. We haven't really heard much about age gap relationships until women started seeing the younger men.

And I think the age of the people involved would have to be taken into consideration too. For instance, for myself, I wouldn't consider it much of a gap if I were with a guy 5 years younger, but if I were 22 that 5 years would make a big difference.

So I think I would have to say that the gap is in the eye of the beholder. We have ladies come to the board who are fretting over 5 years or 8 years or 10 years and really having a hard time with that . . . and then you have me and several other ladies on this site who are dealing with 25 year gaps and don't have a problem with it at all.

Bottom line is if the gap is a concern and they need support, we are here to help!:D

Don't know if anyone thinks the letters stand for "old" and "young" instead of older and younger, but if it is the gap, then we are still back to the question of how much of a gap.

"...if she is older than he is then she's the OW and he's the YM. Same with the OM/YW."

So you are saying (in answer to my previoious questions) that a one year gap is enough to define it as an O/Y relationship? And in my example of a 90yo man and an 89yo woman he is the OM and she is the YW?

Since this definition is central to what this site is about, and so many people use these terms, I think it's important to talk about. We can already see here that it means different things to different people.

TrueHeart, I think I understand what you are saying. Obviously, people do have different slants on this and whatever serves us will be the reference points that we use. For me, I came to this site because I am struggling with trying to figure out what's going on (if anything) with me (47) and a male friend (27). Personally, I would NOT be on this site if the man in question and I were no more than 5 years apart...not because I don't like this site...it's great!...but because I would not have seen such a small age gap itself to be of any consequence...so I wouldn't be seeking support and advice specifically related to it. Also, I have never had a serious relationship with a man this much younger (or this much older for that matter). My serious relationships in my life have always been with men within a 5 year age gap.

But everyone has a good point. The age-gap is an "issue" no matter what the number of years, if it's an "issue" for one or both of the individuals involved. The only difference is that if a woman has a problem dating younger men period (even if it's only 1 year), it's an issue, but it's only an issue in her own mind. If a woman is dating a man 20+ years younger, even if it's not an issue for her and him, it could still be an issue for others and they will have to deal with that. The other situation where there is less amount of years, no one else will really care about it besides the two involved.

So I think I would have to say that the gap is in the eye of the beholder. We have ladies come to the board who are fretting over 5 years or 8 years or 10 years and really having a hard time with that . . . and then you have me and several other ladies on this site who are dealing with 25 year gaps and don't have a problem with it at all.

Bottom line is if the gap is a concern and they need support, we are here to help!:D

Precisely what I think, if one is older and it bothers either of them then it should be treated as an AG.

So a 20yo woman with a 19yo man makes her the OW and him the YM?

Hmmmmm... if this is so that means that even a one year age difference is enough to define who is the Y and who is the O?

So if a 90 year old man is with a 89 year old woman, he is the OM and she is the YW?
Gramatically yes, a 20 yr old woman who goes out with a 19 yr, 11 month guy is an OW and he is a YM.
The thing is that with such a small gap, they probably do not consider themselves in an AGR. After having a 21 yr old gap relationship for 3years, I do not think anymore that 2 or even 5 years constitute a gap.

Wow, thanks for all your responses!!

I just found this in Wikipedia... makes me wonder if there is some challenge awaiting every age group. Soon people will start thinking people remain children until they are 50... because what if they go through a mid-life crisis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_return

I think we as a society have all become commitment-phobic, and this is a symptom.

Edit to clarify what I meant: Some people use the fact that someone is a "vym" as an argument against committing to someone younger, but the fact is, this elusive state of "maturity" that everyone seems to be waiting for in a partner simply isn't there... we are all constantly changing. Someone who is 60 is still changing and maturing.

My Dad is 83, and he's STILL a vym! LOL :D You should see him when he's got a cold! What a friggin' baby, just ask my mom (13 years his junior).:rolleyes:

Robin is 27, and I still consider him a vym, not because he hasn't fulfilled responsibilities or whatnot, but because there's still so much undecided in his life and so much he needs to explore (NOT other women! LOL) to find out what it is he really wants to do with his life. He still doesn't handle stress well, he still doesn't face tough personal responsibilities, and he has other issues that in my opinion, pertain to his age. Yes, he can earn money to help with the bills, yes, he can help parent the kids, and heck, he singlehandedly takes care of this house and does all of the repairs on it, I mean, he's a LOT more mature than my ex-husband who was 8 years older than me, but I still see a kid sometimes, just trying to figure stuff out.

When do they stop being vym? When we look at them one day, and realize that they grew up and figured out a way to achieve their goals. When they consistently take total responsibility for their own actions and behavior. When they put everyone else first. When you know in your heart that you can depend on him, above anyone else in the whole wide world. That's when.

I have my 4 year old granddaughter living with me and I take care of my 2 year old grandson during the day. You know what the best thing is? It is looking at the world with excitement, curiosity, and wonder through their eyes.

Think about it... we love being around YM for that reason as well. They have such a 'can do' attitude. They believe in LOVE!!! So refreshing rather than the "ex-wife took me to the cleaners!" :rolleyes:

My Mom has weighed a 170 pounds for probably 25 years. Her cholesterol went up and rather than be on the medication to lose weight, she lost down to 110 POUNDS! I am telling you that at 81 she looks hot!:p

It is the young spirit that she has and so many of us have as well that makes life so grand, don't you think? :)

PS... This isn't to knock the OM. We women become jaded just as well.

If I can ask a related question...

What are the definitions of an OW, OM, YW and YM?

Is there an age range for each?

Or is it something related to the age GAP?

If a man is 90 and his gf is 70 is he an OM and she a YW?


My point of view is that the acronyms are relative to the age gap, and mostly for the purpose of giving clarification for discussion.


So a 20yo woman with a 19yo man makes her the OW and him the YM?

Hmmmmm... if this is so that means that even a one year age difference is enough to define who is the Y and who is the O?

So if a 90 year old man is with a 89 year old woman, he is the OM and she is the YW?

Well, I don't think so but it's 20 was a long time ago. Maybe to some 20 year old women who are conditioned to date men their own age, or older, dating someone younger is a big deal. As for the 90 year old man, he might just get tickled about dating an 89 year old YW. ;)

When I was 16 (which I was, once upon a time), I was dating a boy that was 15. It didn't matter to me and didn't have any weight in our friendship. When I was 18, I was dating a 24 year old man, and we didn't really give the AG much thought or much discussion (except when I wanted him to buy wine coolers for me :) )

I guess it's all in how we're conditioned.


As to the originaly topic, I think that defining, if you will, VYM, is similar to using age-cap relative acronyms. It is to provide some sort of context for discussion in places like this.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, and I could very well get hammered for this, but I do believe that there are generalizations that can be made about the different chronological stages in life. No, I don't have any to spout off the top of my head - it's only Wed night and it's been a long week already.

Ok, at the risk of sounding cliche, I do think age is just a number. I know some old 24 year olds and some very immature 40 year olds. It is about the man to me not the age. I just tend to be attracted to mature men with a playful nature and they tend to come in younger bodies.... LOL :p

Me too dmjoy.... I guess by many people's standards, Stu is a vym at 26 years. I love his sense of fun, his playfulness, and upbeat positivity & constant support and love...just to mention a few of his awesome qualities.

We work together full time as well as have a romantic relationship...and we love it! I definately have nothing to knock about vym.

FWIW, I agree with everything SG said above. I think that the expressions OW, OM, YM, YW, and even VYP(either man or woman) are used to frame the discussion and give context. These ages are in relation to the partners themselves. As for whether or not someone with a very small gap is older or younger... well I think the answer is it depends on how they define themselves. I have seen twins descripe themselves as the older or younger twin depending upon which minute (or less) that they were born. My father had only a few years on my mom, but she did use to tease him about being such an olllllllllllllllllllllllllllldddddddddddddd guy. I don't think she seriously saw their relationship as age gapped. However, people just do seem to notice these differences and account for them in some manner.

i loved bubblebee's answer, until i remembered i bought adam scooby doo boxers. he loved them, he loves that cartoon, i guess i am aiding to his immaturity....bad me....:eek: .

he went ga ga for them, he even showed them to some of the lady soldier's at work, they all wanted them.

i thought i just found another way to his heart, its true, maybe we should not mess with their cartoon underwear.

My Dad is 83, and he's STILL a vym! LOL :D You should see him when he's got a cold! What a friggin' baby, just ask my mom (13 years his junior).:rolleyes:

Robin is 27, and I still consider him a vym, not because he hasn't fulfilled responsibilities or whatnot, but because there's still so much undecided in his life and so much he needs to explore (NOT other women! LOL) to find out what it is he really wants to do with his life. He still doesn't handle stress well, he still doesn't face tough personal responsibilities, and he has other issues that in my opinion, pertain to his age. Yes, he can earn money to help with the bills, yes, he can help parent the kids, and heck, he singlehandedly takes care of this house and does all of the repairs on it, I mean, he's a LOT more mature than my ex-husband who was 8 years older than me, but I still see a kid sometimes, just trying to figure stuff out.

When do they stop being vym? When we look at them one day, and realize that they grew up and figured out a way to achieve their goals. When they consistently take total responsibility for their own actions and behavior. When they put everyone else first. When you know in your heart that you can depend on him, above anyone else in the whole wide world. That's when.


Polly,
this has helped me a lot, I don't live with my YM and I understand why now, he is not ready and likes getting his own stuff together... which he can do sometimes, he has matured a lot since I met him though he still has a long way to go... he is 26, I would still say he is a VYM, emotionally and the way he handles stress, he kinda gets involved with my son then backs off, his inconsistency drives me crazy... though I have a new mantra

Simply let go...

I just remind myself, yes I'm more mature, yes I was more mature at 26, he is what he is a boyfriend not a partner

I have made a decision of what priorities are important to me and he is not right at the top as we are not planning our lives together, we are dating

It has been hard for me to come to this decision as I expected more after 2 1/2 years, yet if my boyfriend is quite immature and can't support me in ways I would like yet, what can I do? I can accept him as he is as VYM still or I can go find someone else or be on my own.


I find this forum so comforting as I couldn't get this level of love and support about specifics anywhere else..... keeps me sane I can tell you.

They stop being "vym" when:


They are responsible with/for finances, children, pets, etc.
They are full contributors to the household
They don't worry about their age or yours
They've cut the apron strings to mommy
They don't treat or expect you to be their mommy
They are concerned about the future, both yours and his
They act like a man and treat you like the woman they love
They stop wearing super hero underwear


Does Simpson's count as a super hero? :p

The only thing Joel does not do is been responable for finances, but that is only because he haven't been allowed to work here in Norway yet, but I got a call today from the police telling me that now all of his papers was okay :D

anyways, I voted 24... I cannot say why, but that was what felt right :confused:

I'm not sure David's EVER been a vym, in any way except chronologically.

He did some stupid stuff when he was 15, got in trouble and wound up on probation, and that shook any wild child stuff out of him maybe. He won't even speed intentionally. I got a ticket a couple of weeks ago, you should have heard the lecture I got about being more attentive to the rules of the road. My 30 year old son is thinking of buying a motorcycle, David's response? "You ARE going to take the motorcycle safety course before you start riding" 30 year old son looks at 23 year old, and cracked up. "Yes Dad" David loves his own motorcycle, and yes, he did take the motorcycle safety course.

Bub's whole list counts. How about the underwear with the shiny red lip print though? :p

He's our billpayer. He's doing a way better job than I ever did.

Yeah, he's still very young, he's not sure what he wants to do for a living for the rest of his life. Neither am I actually, and I'm 51. Now I'm planning for my part time retirement job, and what I could do that would be fun. He still spends too much time on the computer some days, so do I. The nice thing is, if I do have a day off, and totally veg on the net, he never comes home from work, and gets upset that I don't have the house spotless, or dinner on the table. He kisses me, calls out for pizza and joins me.

It's the person. He never had any training in being responsible, not with his parents. It's the way he is, naturally.

All that and he looks like Orlando Bloom. I'm blessed.

As long as a man lives with his mother, doesn't do his own laundry and can't cook, has no job and doesn't provide for himself, he's a VYM whether he's 18 or 38.

My guy is 21 and still a VYM. He's hoping to start "college" in September. I put it in quotes because I'm not sure what our way of calling his military vocational school is. Until he's able to look after himself I will still consider him a VYM.

i can relate bella, adam is just settled, more so than any other man i have been with, he is totally satisfied with me, not one foot out the door or thinking the grass may be greener down the road.

i find MYSELF willing to do much more to please him by this acceptance.

great guys do not necessarily come in any particular age group, they are just great guys. (probably always were.)

Anyone have a conclusion?
Soo, doesnt live at home, is self sufficient in many/most ways, and has otherwise reached a certain level of maturity?

well, I wear cartoon underwear.....

But, to add one to the list:

He ceases to be a VYM when he stops having to 'go clubbing with his friends' (eg. boy's nite out ALL THE TIME)

with the emphasis on HAVING.......

I fear we are getting too involved in judgement calls here. And we are no longer defining what characterizes a "vym" vs. a non-vym, but we are starting to define emotional maturity... I think this is very different.

Anyone have a conclusion?
Soo, doesnt live at home, is self sufficient in many/most ways, and has otherwise reached a certain level of maturity?
That and knowing what he wants to do with his life, not floating like a leaf in the wind.

I fear we are getting too involved in judgement calls here. And we are no longer defining what characterizes a "vym" vs. a non-vym, but we are starting to define emotional maturity... I think this is very different.


Definitely.

I think the phrase VYM is only really used to identify the character of that relationship to people outside of it. It IS more about the person and their maturity than their age, but you also can't say simply "if he's still living at home, can't cook and isn't able to provide then he is a VYM". Circumstances make an awful amount of difference. Judging by those 3 things I will be a VYM this time next year, and quite possibly another 2 years into the future, in the least. This has nothing to do with my maturity, but the circumstances I find myself in. I'm at home because I'm trying to get my stuff together to get a good career underway in the future, I couldn't do that if I moved out. Within the next year I'm going to have to change countries and the stuff that goes along with getting a visa means I'm not going to be able to contribute fully financially for a while once I'm there. I CAN cook though, but many people just can't, and never will be able to, make more than beans on toast without setting the kitchen on fire. That doesn't automatically make them immature or a VYM.

Those are good points Rob...and good luck with your career preparations. Its always hard to take a knock financially for the sake of a better future, but you've got a great Gal and it will be worth it in the end!

And yes, Pinkcat I agree that a young age is not the same as emotional immaturity (and seems that most of the posters do too)

Ah, is it wrong that I'll miss some of Stu's `youthful' aspects as he ages? Like pretending to be a Ninja:) He s soo funny when he does that.