support through abuse?

How do you support someone you love whose going through abuse, but doesn't feel she's able to get out of it?

Started early on, they got mad at eachother, she got pinned to the floor and degraded.

She'd be on her way out the door and he'd get all nice

few weeks ago she got tired of the old, dusty, unmaintainable wooden "blinds" in her bathroom, took them down, put them by the trash, put up some frosting film. He got all angry about it being her house and she couldn't do anything without his approval. She then got mad at that and started pulling up the flowers, etc, she'd planted since he obviously hadn't given her permission to plant them; she got pulled in the house by her hair.

Was about out the door and nicened up.

Last week, she wouldn't show him bank statements regarding the sale of her condo, so he took her by the neck and pounded her head against the wall. Screaming for help, no one listened. Eventually he got tired of the screaming and let her neck go long enough to shove a pillow in her face to quiet her down. She felt she needed to go to the hospital headache, etc, wise, as well as to have some sort of documentation of it.

Decided it was best to get out and we'd do it monday; forgot about an appointment so Tuesday. Now she's got an infection, a cold, and her disability's flairing up, plus it's ungodly hot so it's not good this week. He was nice for a day or so then started to get worse again, then he saw that she was actually packing stuff up to really love out and now he's being nice again.

She's got financial problems, with an inability to really support herself alone, find affordable housing, etc, so now that he's being nice again she's feeling maybe it's best to stay around.

I've offered to support her whether or not she comes back to me, but she doesn't want to impose or be left high and dry if I was just offering for revenge on her hurting me...

I don't know what else to tell her. She knows that violence is generally a cycle. The last time she saw it comming, rather premeditated, although afterwards he apologized that he didn't mean to hurt her so much, just punch her a couple times to get what he wanted.

I believe that you can have one f-up violence wise. You get carried away, forget who it is, and screw up. Then you're so freaked out about what you did that you'd never do it again. Our state will equally arrest you both, and he convinced her that since she'd scratched him he could get her arrested if she tried to get him arrested, which would disqualify her from her main source of income and the thing besides me that makes her happy. So, they made up some story about getting assaulted in the city, which totally fell apart with the doctors and he got a major evil eye from them all.

She's been looking into separation and divorce, he seemed to be playing along until he saw she was really serious. He goes from threatening to take all the condo money, to letting her go with most of his furniture since he made her get rid of hers when the condo sold and they had nowhere to put it.

She got advice from another friend to try and get a hold of his guns and put them in a safety deposit box, but I think I rightly informed her that walking to a bank with a few guns, including a shotgun that you couldn't conceal, would be a very bad idea.

We keep wavering between replanning our lives together and her sticking it out, and it's killing me. He's wavering between how to live as a married couple and her going back to me...

I just want to go over there, grab her, her meds, and run. I don't want to have to start getting the paper and watching the obits... I'd support her for the rest of my life, or if she decides that I'm not right either, until she finds someone else to marry, and after that if they don't work; I just can't fathom her sticking around till he goes ape**** again and does something that you don't come back from...l

Anyone?

I am in no way qualified to give advice. Please see this website

http://www.ndvh.org/

Domestic violence is something complex and dangerous. You can't save her. She has to save herself by finding a shelter. Leave yourself out of it, other than being a supportive friend to get professional help.

You could end up getting yourself hurt or killed. It's happened too many times. Leave her alone. Don't help her out of there. She must walk on her own two feet out the door. It has to be a decison she arrives at on her own, not from pressure from you. From what you've said, she still in serious denial and doesn't even have an escape plan.....

Take care of YOU!

Have her go to the battered women shelter, there has to be one near, they will give her protection and a hiding place from him as long as necessary.

The district attorney, family violence unit, can get her a Protective Order without having to file for a divorce.

Have her read articles about "the battered women syndrome" that is what she is suffering from. She can read about it on the net. It is a vicious circle, and it will continue to escalate.

She can hire an attorney, at least go for a consultation and get advice. By the way, her condo is her separate property since she had it before marriage.

The guy is an absolute NUT, stay far away! If she is not willing to help herself, you won't be able to help her either. Most women have lots of difficulty getting out of that pattern of abuse once they are in it.

Good luck!

OK, assuming she wants out of the relationship, she needs to GET OUT OF HIS HOME NOW.

Forget about the idea of doing anything with his guns. This is not a self serve situation.

She needs to get out of his home right now. Go to a relatives house if she can't find any authorities that will help immediately. Even if she has to leave town, she should go NOW.

After she is out, she should contact the authorities (good leads above) and an attorney.

DO NOT return to the house, for any reason such as to pick up belongings, without a physically capable escort, preferably the police.

Oh yes and after she is out have her press charges against him for assault!

Thats not the big problem. She knows he's abusive, but she keeps trying to make it work and when he's nice, he's probably an angel, and she tries to forget about it.
She needs to realize that it'll always be this way, and it's not going to get better. She needs a hard kick in the ****, excuse my language and wake up that he doesnt love her as much as she loves him.

It's a mindset that is very hard to get rid of and often friends intervene on their behalf. She needs to realize/know that no matter how much she loves him or think he loves her, physical abuse is not only not worth it, but it violates her personal self worth and dignity.

I know mothers who've gone through this cycle for years, and it only gets worse. They've suffered abuse towards themselves and their children. It's only when some of them realized that their childrens lives were in danger that they tried to get out. Some were even woed bck. It's a vicious cycle.

Years ago some guy was beating the crap out of a girl right outside my front fence.

I went out there to help her and grabbed the guy.

They BOTH started hitting me and BOTH told me to get lost and mind my own business.

She was covered with bruises and this was clearly not the first time she had been the subject of his beatings.

I developed a belief from that experience that some women derive psychological (or psychosexual) pleasure from this kind of treatment.

Although it was the most dramatic, it was not the only time that I saw such a relationship.

I believe it's up to the woman to decide if she wants out or not. I don't believe that is anyone else's call to make. Of course I realize that some people don’t share my belief.

If she makes the decision that she wants out, she needs to take decisive action which means GETTING OUT.

Thankyou for all the replies.

She doesn't want to press charges because he has convinced her he can press charges back since she's scratched him up in the whole thing. Our state is dual-fault or however you want to call it. I've talked with the cops about it, they say she should be ok as long as it looks defensive, but she can't risk it in her mind. Plus she loves him and doesn't want him in trouble...

She has a feeling that it will cycle around again, but as it's good now, and her insurance is taken care of while she's still there, she doesn't want to risk it, so she's hoping he'll stay nice :(

She's been in "homes" before when her disability got really bad; not sure if a battered woman's shelter would be any better, but she's not at all ready to go into something like that.

she's had a couple free consulatations with attorneys, she's got an appt on Friday for a full-fledged discussion.

I guess I just have to be there for her, keep myself safe, and keep praying for the best...

She can get C.O.B.R.A. health insurance coverage (it is a mandated federal act of congress) for a period of 3 years after she divorces her husband through her husband's employer (hopefully employer is a big enough company that must offer COBRA benefits) as long as she, her husband, or whomever pays for the premiums, at the rates offered to the employee. Tell her to ask the attorney what COBRA benefits is all about.

If your friend has been in battered women shelters before, as result of men beating her, she definitively suffers from the "battered women syndrome" and she needs heavy counseling otherwise she will never get out of this vicious circle. There is a big possibility she was physically abused as a child or saw abuse in her home as she was growing up.

I know what I am talking about it. I am a family law attorney that deals with this topic often.

Bottom line, she needs help, but until she realize what is happening she will never seek the necessary help.

Again, good luck!

True wrote: Years ago some guy was beating the crap out of a girl right outside my front fence. I went out there to help her and grabbed the guy.
They BOTH started hitting me and BOTH told me to get lost and mind my own business. HA!! I'm hip True!! Same thing kinda happened to me back in the 80's. I was living in downtown Ft Lauderdale & working in the main jail for the Sheriff's office. I was sleeping and heard my redneck neighbors going at it out in the street. I looked out the window and ol slim was beating the living ***** out of her with some sorta tool!! Like a ratchet or something!! She bleeding all over the place! So I dialed 911. She went unconsious and he freakin' picked her up and threw in the trash dumpster!!!!!:eek: So I got my .357 & drew down on him and cuffed him 'til FTLD P.D. arrived. They busted him for AGG BATTERY (no domestic violence laws back then) So the next day I come home and BAM there they are!! She's all banged up head wrapped in bandages, stitches etc... both drunk on cheap beer and giving me a dirty look!! True love!!

How do you support someone you love whose going through abuse, but doesn't feel she's able to get out of it?

Started early on, they got mad at eachother, she got pinned to the floor and degraded.

She'd be on her way out the door and he'd get all nice

few weeks ago she got tired of the old, dusty, unmaintainable wooden "blinds" in her bathroom, took them down, put them by the trash, put up some frosting film. He got all angry about it being her house and she couldn't do anything without his approval. She then got mad at that and started pulling up the flowers, etc, she'd planted since he obviously hadn't given her permission to plant them; she got pulled in the house by her hair.

Was about out the door and nicened up.

Last week, she wouldn't show him bank statements regarding the sale of her condo, so he took her by the neck and pounded her head against the wall. Screaming for help, no one listened. Eventually he got tired of the screaming and let her neck go long enough to shove a pillow in her face to quiet her down. She felt she needed to go to the hospital headache, etc, wise, as well as to have some sort of documentation of it.

Decided it was best to get out and we'd do it monday; forgot about an appointment so Tuesday. Now she's got an infection, a cold, and her disability's flairing up, plus it's ungodly hot so it's not good this week. He was nice for a day or so then started to get worse again, then he saw that she was actually packing stuff up to really love out and now he's being nice again.

She's got financial problems, with an inability to really support herself alone, find affordable housing, etc, so now that he's being nice again she's feeling maybe it's best to stay around.

I've offered to support her whether or not she comes back to me, but she doesn't want to impose or be left high and dry if I was just offering for revenge on her hurting me...

I don't know what else to tell her. She knows that violence is generally a cycle. The last time she saw it comming, rather premeditated, although afterwards he apologized that he didn't mean to hurt her so much, just punch her a couple times to get what he wanted.

I believe that you can have one f-up violence wise. You get carried away, forget who it is, and screw up. Then you're so freaked out about what you did that you'd never do it again. Our state will equally arrest you both, and he convinced her that since she'd scratched him he could get her arrested if she tried to get him arrested, which would disqualify her from her main source of income and the thing besides me that makes her happy. So, they made up some story about getting assaulted in the city, which totally fell apart with the doctors and he got a major evil eye from them all.

She's been looking into separation and divorce, he seemed to be playing along until he saw she was really serious. He goes from threatening to take all the condo money, to letting her go with most of his furniture since he made her get rid of hers when the condo sold and they had nowhere to put it.

She got advice from another friend to try and get a hold of his guns and put them in a safety deposit box, but I think I rightly informed her that walking to a bank with a few guns, including a shotgun that you couldn't conceal, would be a very bad idea.

We keep wavering between replanning our lives together and her sticking it out, and it's killing me. He's wavering between how to live as a married couple and her going back to me...

I just want to go over there, grab her, her meds, and run. I don't want to have to start getting the paper and watching the obits... I'd support her for the rest of my life, or if she decides that I'm not right either, until she finds someone else to marry, and after that if they don't work; I just can't fathom her sticking around till he goes ape**** again and does something that you don't come back from...l

Anyone?


We have a few women on Ageless who get disability payments. Just getting those payments should not predispose you to letting someone hurt you! When they say you don't get the payments in jail, I think it's most likely because when you are actually in jail, the government is paying for your living expenses. In any case, you are right, it's bad to be on the outside looking at someone whom you believe to be in an abusive relationship. While it sounds like she is in one, you can't do anything really, except ask her to leave him. And be prepared to get a response that isn't to your liking. They will minimize and excuse their lover. Reaction formation, Freud would call it. I don't know what exactly your past relationship is to this person, but it sounds like you too are an ex, and she may feel that if she takes up your offer she is jumping from one situation to another. I know that's harsh, but I think that makes sense. Ex's are usually not the person we run to in times of crisis, at least not making a move that would put us living with them again.

For you: I think you should stay uninvolved. I don't see how you can do much except be a friend.

Ali

We have a few women on Ageless who get disability payments. Just getting those payments should not predispose you to letting someone hurt you! When they say you don't get the payments in jail, I think it's most likely because when you are actually in jail, the government is paying for your living expenses. In any case, you are right, it's bad to be on the outside looking at someone whom you believe to be in an abusive relationship. While it sounds like she is in one, you can't do anything really, except ask her to leave him. And be prepared to get a response that isn't to your liking. They will minimize and excuse their lover. Reaction formation, Freud would call it. I don't know what exactly your past relationship is to this person, but it sounds like you too are an ex, and she may feel that if she takes up your offer she is jumping from one situation to another. I know that's harsh, but I think that makes sense. Ex's are usually not the person we run to in times of crisis, at least not making a move that would put us living with them again.

For you: I think you should stay uninvolved. I don't see how you can do much except be a friend.

Ali

She's more worried about her job than actual disability. What little she's able to do would be out the door with an arrest record, they're really strict even if there aren't charges filed.

She was losing her insurance, was more sure of him being their for the rest of her life than me at the moment, so ran back to him and eloped. I've alluded to her previously that immediately jumping from him back to me might not be the best idea; she brought it up the other day more that she doesn't want to screw me up by doing it. I'll pay for her to stay in a hotel or whatever until she can find a suitable apartment/house, she doesn't have to live with me, legally it's probably best she doesn't until she'd be legally separated or divorced. But, she can't really afford to live on her own, he can't afford to pay for her place and his, so if she doesn't want to accept my help or anyone elses she'll likely just stick it out until one of them is in the ground. She doesn't want to be any more of a burden than she has to be.

She can get C.O.B.R.A. health insurance coverage (it is a mandated federal act of congress) for a period of 3 years after she divorces her husband through her husband's employer (hopefully employer is a big enough company that must offer COBRA benefits) as long as she, her husband, or whomever pays for the premiums, at the rates offered to the employee. Tell her to ask the attorney what COBRA benefits is all about.

If your friend has been in battered women shelters before, as result of men beating her, she definitively suffers from the "battered women syndrome" and she needs heavy counseling otherwise she will never get out of this vicious circle. There is a big possibility she was physically abused as a child or saw abuse in her home as she was growing up.

I know what I am talking about it. I am a family law attorney that deals with this topic often.

Bottom line, she needs help, but until she realize what is happening she will never seek the necessary help.

Again, good luck!

As you correctly point out COBRA only applies to companies over a certain size. However, some states have similar provisions that cover employees of smaller companies, so that could theoretically be an option too in case there is a smaller company involved and her state has such provisions.

However, with the cost of coverage for a single individual in many places typically at maybe $500 or $600 dollars per month, and family plans perhaps as much as $1,800 per month or more (plus the employer in some cases may add an administrative fee), who can afford it?!

HONK HONK Sparky!! ;)

As everyone said it's a complicated situation, and she sounds like she really needs and wants support. She's not willing to take risks, and for her they seem quite large.
I've been in extreme situations where friends have tried to seperate the two and it often breaks friendships and many times doesn't.
I suppose the best you can do is help her make sure all her bases are covered, best they can be, in case she does take that leap pf faith, and remind her of anyone who cares for her, who'll be willing to provide support, including emotional and/or financial.

Yes I agree that being a person in her life who can give her friendship and a place to stay when she's ready to go is the best you can do for her.

Yep, and like everyone else said, it will probably take her time to snap out of it and WANT to leave. Its hard to understand, and hard to watch, but it will probably save her life if you keep the offer of refuge open.

As everyone said it's a complicated situation, and she sounds like she really needs and wants support. She's not willing to take risks, and for her they seem quite large.
I've been in extreme situations where friends have tried to seperate the two and it often breaks friendships and many times doesn't.
I suppose the best you can do is help her make sure all her bases are covered, best they can be, in case she does take that leap pf faith, and remind her of anyone who cares for her, who'll be willing to provide support, including emotional and/or financial.

Well reasoned, well said.

Years ago some guy was beating the crap out of a girl right outside my front fence.

I went out there to help her and grabbed the guy.

They BOTH started hitting me and BOTH told me to get lost and mind my own business.

She was covered with bruises and this was clearly not the first time she had been the subject of his beatings.

I developed a belief from that experience that some women derive psychological (or psychosexual) pleasure from this kind of treatment.

Although it was the most dramatic, it was not the only time that I saw such a relationship.

I believe it's up to the woman to decide if she wants out or not. I don't believe that is anyone else's call to make. Of course I realize that some people don’t share my belief.

If she makes the decision that she wants out, she needs to take decisive action which means GETTING OUT.

Gotta agree with ya on this one. Our police officers hate the domestic violence calls more than any calls they get. More often than not when they arrive, both parties turn on them. And sometimes when the woman actually does file charges, she then comes back in and retracts them.

I had a woman in my office raising cain one day because she had filed charges a year before and then retracted them. She was finally wanting to file for divorce and wanted copies of the paperwork she had filed the year before. Under Texas Open Records Laws police records are not available if the charges were dropped. She was furious about it. I told her she should not have dropped the charges.

I think these women are just codependent. Personally I don't understand it. If a guy beat me, I would wait until he was sleeping and beat the hell out of him and take off (I still love what Willie Nelson's first wife did to him . . . he he he). And I most assuredly subscribe to Ann Lander's take on this: Hit me once, shame on you . .. hit me twice, shame on me!:mad:

I feel that this is partially true, Peachy, but that an awful lot of strong, rich, educated, and emotionally healthy women and men get caught in abusive relationships too...so there really is probably not `one type' of person who falls in love with an abusive person.

Anyway, most abusive people are the opposite during the courtship/ falling- in -love process..they are charming, caring, very nice and non-violent, which is why their partners fall in love. Its only after they feel in control that their ugly side comes out.

Thats why I doubt that abuse victims love being abused....they didn't fall in love with an abuser, they fell in love with the act they pulled when they were trying to attract a mate.

By then the poor partner is totally in love and has troubles understanding and reconcilling the new personality which has emerged. And love, for most people, is not a switch that can be turned on and off at will. Once its there, it takes a long time to fade and most people will try to understand, help, and give a chance to the person they love most in the world.

I was pretty hard nosed and unsymapthetic towards abuse victims too...being a strong woman ... up until I fell in love with an older guy who backflipped on me and turned out to be a woman-basher.

He wasn't like that in the beginning..he was very funny, passive, supportive, and highly compatible with me. Then he just changed. After that I went into a kind of shock, and it was hard to get my head around someone doing that to ME. I was also lacking in resources...and somehow, this extreme form of negative feedback took some time to process, as the physical violence went hand in hand with emotional abuse. All that negative reinforcement, coming from a loved one was difficult to just throw off.

A really good guy friend of mine offered me a place to stay when I was ready, and I took him up on the offer...so I survived.

I don't go around thinking that abuse victims bring it apon themselves anymore.

ok, I tell you, I have written at least 5 replies to this topic and keep clearing the board.

I feel passionately on this subject. I am frustrated and angry as I am going through the same thing with someone I care about. I have watched and fought and begged and pleaded for 18 years.

My lessons learned in this has been:

If she says she loves him, she isn't leaving.
Bad attention is better than no attention, just so long as he stays around.
I am not important in this.
What I think, what others think. Not important.
This is about her and him.
I am a convenient escape, a place to run away to, when he leaves her.
When he there, everything is O.K. (and never mind the verbal abuse or physical abuse - in this case, he just doesn't take care of her)
Walk away, be firm in your love, but do not help her to run away. The problem must be faced - head on- and by her. No one else can do it for her.
It hurts to watch.

It's all been said.

Until she's ready to change - herself - she will not change the situation that she's in. You cannot make her do it, although as a friend, you can refuse to back down from your point of view. You can continue to give your opinion about what she should do (make that phone call, pick up and leave, etc.), without jamming it down her throat.

You can continue to be there for her. However, if running to you to recount the drama is part of the cycle, you may consider changing how you respond. I've had friends who go through the same cycles in their relationships over and over and over and...well, you get the picture. Running to others to recount the drama, looking for sympathy, etc. can be part of the cycle - and I've been that girl, myself.

To clarify: I've NOT been in a physically abusive relationship but rather in emotionally-trying relationships. I would NEVER stand for a man laying a hand on me. I'd likely take a baseball bat to his head. I'd rather live in a garbage can than stay with someone that physically abused me. (A man I was engaged to many years ago grabbed me forcefully once (and only once), and I started thinking about injuring him in his sleep, to put it nicely. I knew if we stayed together, he'd probably do it again and I'd wind up killing him in his sleep.)

When we change, we force the people around us to change. If you change your response, perhaps she'll be thrown off-kilter and change her reaction to the situation. It's a hard balance sometimes - being there for someone who is in a situation like that but not supporting the situation - albeit indirectly and unintentionally. People weave complex situations for themselves, and sometimes we're part of them.

Action suggestion: Why don't you find out where the nearest decent woman's shelter/abuse center is located, pick her up for lunch or something, drive up to the place, and have a long talk in the parking lot and see if you can get her to go in - even just to talk to someone?

I'm sorry otaku, but that's very hard to do. As many of you noticed, their nice guy act along with ever increasing acts of abuse and violence leads to a sort of addiction or dependence, where the self is always pushed down.
But you leaving/not talking to her(and maybe some of her other friends), may just be the hard kick in the ***** she needs. I don't know how many people she still counts as friends, but providing her with an ultimatum to leave him or you, even if she doesnt accept, may shock her enough. It may also be one of the few things desperate enough to work.
I'm sure, that you could mention that if she ever resolves to leave him, you'd be the first to help, but she needs to re-evaluate herself and who she is, his caretaker or her own. I find it too difficult to really support a move like this, but it may be what she needs.
The one thing I could not do is sit and watch and do nothing, while still calling myself her friend.

I'm sorry otaku, but that's very hard to do. As many of you noticed, their nice guy act along with ever increasing acts of abuse and violence leads to a sort of addiction or dependence, where the self is always pushed down.
But you leaving/not talking to her(and maybe some of her other friends), may just be the hard kick in the ***** she needs. I don't know how many people she still counts as friends, but providing her with an ultimatum to leave him or you, even if she doesnt accept, may shock her enough. It may also be one of the few things desperate enough to work.
I'm sure, that you could mention that if she ever resolves to leave him, you'd be the first to help, but she needs to re-evaluate herself and who she is, his caretaker or her own. I find it too difficult to really support a move like this, but it may be what she needs.
The one thing I could not do is sit and watch and do nothing, while still calling myself her friend.


Ahhh.. clarification.. you are referring to the don't help her run away part?

If so, what I meant is what SG posted. Be there, but don't allow yourself to be a part of the cycle, to fuel it.

Every time there is abuse and she talks to you about it, she is getting emotional relief. What I would do is give her the number to the Battered Womans Hotline and tell her to call them to talk. Tell her that while you can listen, that you really can't advise her and that THEY CAN.

By not being her confidant, she will be more likely to talk to the counselor and get help. Good luck.

Walk away, be firm in your love, but do not help her to run away. The problem must be faced - head on- and by her. No one else can do it for her.


I meant that. I know what you meant, I simply was saying it can be difficult as a friend to to that. I'm sure it's right, just gut wrenching, and waiting painfully.

I agree that you should stay uninvolved. You have offered your help and I am sure she has heard it. The fact that she has not taken your advice or accepted your offers suggests several things. First off, she may feel for her safety and yours and is choosing to not make things worse until she can figure out a way out of her predicament. A second thought is that she is so confused right now, and so without trust, she may not be able to trust any man.

There are a few key points that are missing in this story. Does she have children? Where is her family and what is her relationship like with them? Does she work outside the home? Knowing these things might be helpful in making suggestions about what she might do. The link was a great post...her number one priority should be figuring out where she can go when she reaches that point where she absolutely has to get away from him. Just when that will be has to be her call. Very scary to live in a situation that is so volatile that even ordinary actions can put you in danger. What seems so obvious to us reading this (that she needs to get away from him) may not be as easy as we think it should be, and when she does this it needs to be a completely secret and decisive move! There can't be any holes in her plan. Her life really does depend on this. :(