Growing and Changing

So... I was talking to somebody about age gap relationships and we got on to whether things were likely (or possible) to work out where one of the participants was younger than say, their early 20s, or especially still in their late teens.

the arguement against was that people that young (male or female) lacked the necessary life experience to know what they really wanted - out of life, a relationship, or anything. also that as they gained experience and figured out what they wanted, it was likely to draw them away from the relationship with an older person as they realized their own goals and that their partner could potentially hold them back, or simply wasn't in tune with what they were after. a young man at 18 is in love, maybe at 21 wants to join the peace corps, then what?

there's also the idea that young people may not even realize what they're doing. falling in love is easy and common in younger years, as is mistaking love and infatuation, and maybe falling out of love is easier too. while older guys and gals are typically looking for something steady, solid, and probably long term, the young one may just be unconsciously spreading their emotional wings and testing their emotional limits, and you may be nothing more than a passing lesson as they learn what they want (and don't) in love and life, or even what they're ready for. they may not realize they're unable to handle it till after they've tried and pushed the boundries that first time, after all.

i know several of you ladies out there have done the very young guy thing successfully and happily. i think Bella has been in it for 2-3 years now. How does it work out for you? are your guys showing signs of regretting committment? needs to move on and persue their own lives? changes that conflict with your lives and love together? general emotional unreadiness or immaturity?

my conversation on the subject made me realize that i had little founded ground to stand on in opposition to common thoughts on the improbable nature of YM/OW relationships where the YM is... young. i figured this would be a *grand* place to get some insight and opinions -- for and against. :)

j

PS: i want to hear from everybody here, both those with experience and those with opinions or insight! :)

Hmmmm...Well, I started dating J one week after he turned 18. I was 32 at the time.
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**also that as they gained experience and figured out what they wanted, it was likely to draw them away from the relationship with an older person as they realized their own goals and that their partner could potentially hold them back, or simply wasn't in tune with what they were after. a young man at 18 is in love, maybe at 21 wants to join the peace corps, then what? "**
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Well, our whole lives are gaining experience and figuring out what we want. It is certainly possible that we want at 30 won't be what we want at 40, and so on. Learning and growing is a never-ending cycle. I guess if at 21 it turns out he wants to join the Peace Corps, then I would support him in that. Of course, if I turned around at 35 and wanted to be in the Peace Corps I would assume he would do the same *smiles*.
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**"falling in love is easy and common in younger years, as is mistaking love and infatuation, and maybe falling out of love is easier too"**
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My only comment on that is...maybe J did fall in love easier. It was probably because he had not had the experience we all seem to gain as we grow older of being screwed over, or cheated on, or being emotionally and/or physically abused, etc. He had never been hurt, therefore he was not scared to fall in love, did not hold anything back and gave it 100% of himself. Gosh, I wish I could have checked MY baggage at the door...lol.

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**How does it work out for you? are your guys showing signs of regretting committment? needs to move on and persue their own lives? changes that conflict with your lives and love together? general emotional unreadiness or immaturity?**
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In our case it has worked out pretty well. We did have a major BUMP (as Bella would refer to it as) a few months back. Everything is the first time for him....first big arguement, first taste of jealousy, first time for a lot of things, and as we all did when we were young he gets confused, sometimes does not know how to handles things, etc.
Most the things we have been through have not been anything I did not expect, and were just life's little lessons that we all learned...like if you are responsible for paying some of the bills, you should not quit your job until you secure another. lol OR...
Hey at home your momma may have done all your laundry and followed you around to pick up your mess...and hey, I may be older, but I sure ain't your momma. And yeah, sometimes his immaturity gets on my nerves (A LOT).
For example, he still thinks some pretty immature things are really really funny...(y'all probably will think this is really ridiculous). For example...one evening when I finished loading the dishwasher and walked into the living room, he threw a comforter over my head like a net, tossed me on the floor and began whopping my butt with a broomstick and yelling "snipe!!." *sigh* I cannot tell you how "unfunny" I found this.
But then, shoot, I knew he was 18 years old when I met him. I knew he had a lot of growing up to do...I knew we were at different points in our lives, and I still was up for the journey. I'm still up for the journey... *smiles*

I guess in conclusion I would say...I don't think he is any more likely to leave me or change his mind because of his age. If I was 20 (as he is now) and we were together, we would grow and learn together and adapt..and even though I am 34 now I can still learn and grow, both from him and with him. I am his first love. He is not scared to give me all of him. He doesn't know what is like to be rejected, to be cheated on, to be treated badly or to have your heart broken. I hope he never will.

We have been together over two years now. We just got back from our early "valentine weekend" were we hid out in a hotel suite for two days, ate a ton of chocolate, drank wine and took bubble baths and laughed so hard watching funny movies we cried. (to keep it sounding idealistic I won't mention the morning he decided to act like a puppy when i was sleeping and kept sniffing and licking my face to wake me *rolling eyes with a sigh*). So, I think we are doing okay.... *winks*

PS...If y'all don't know what "snipe hunting" is...next time you pass though Kansas, stop by and I will be more than happy to take you out to experience it... *wink*

Hi

I met my ym when he was 17 and a few months. I was 22 at the time, and my longest relationship had been 3 months ( I was dumped and replaced by my friend!! - this was when i was 21 and i was seeing a 19 year old). For the first year we only saw each other sat nights, and the odd sunday due to the fact that I worked 200 miles away. He told me after a few months that he loved me and asked me if i loved him, but i didnt really at the at stage and told him it was too soon. i thought it strange that he could be in love with me so soon. Anyway into our 2nd year I got a new job closer to home and moved back in with my parents. Since then we see each other wed nights and from fri night until sun night - as I now live about 35 miles from him. Athough i am nearly 6 years older than him I think I am very immature for my age, but I am much more reserved and worry about things than my ym would. I think that annoys him sometimes! Basically it has worked out well for us, we are now going out 3 years & 3 mths. We have our arguments but these never last long. Maybe if we lived together like Jonalee and her ym we would encounter more problems but that wont be happening for a long while yet. I worried about the age differences, and I still do but I think we have been taking things slowly and that has given him room to grow & become more mature. He is much more mature now than when we first met. And he still tells me he loves me, and maintains that when he told me he loved me after 2 months, he meant it. Who knows, maybe in a few years time he might change his mind about us, but for now he isnt going to change his mind, he seems pretty sure of what he wants. I think his age doesnt have an effect on this - as with any relationship there is the same chance that things wont work out as any other. i think that the best way for a ym/ow relationship to work out is to take things as slowly as possible - dont rush any stage of the relationship, let the ym decide when he is ready to move to the next stage, that way you will be letting them mature and grow in their own time, while still keeping your relationship alive.

Just my two penneys worth!!

Hey Jaye,

One of my favorite topics. We were 35 and 19 when we meet and 39 and 23 now - living together since May of 2000 - and it has absolutely been the equivalent of a doctoral degree in managing changing and growing within a relationship. We are still doing very well. So, I feel like I could write a book - but here's ajust a few early-morning responses to your post.

"the arguement against was that people that young (male or female) lacked the necessary life experience to know what they really wanted - out of life, a relationship, or anything"

No argument there. They do.

"also that as they gained experience and figured out what they wanted, it was likely to draw them away from the relationship with an older person as they realized their own goals and that their partner could potentially hold them back, or simply wasn't in tune with what they were after"

If you set up the relationship so that the younger person is allowed to realize their own goals, then why is it likely to draw them away from you? The older person does have the responsibility not to hold back the younger one, but why would you do that to someone that you love who is just starting out in life? Wouldn't their goals for themselves be part of your goals as a couple? And wouldn't you support them as you expect them to support you in goals you set for yourself? As for being in tune, that is a measure of your compatibility, and obviously, hopefully, you are in tune - thats why you're going through all this shit together to try to have a relationship.

"a young man at 18 is in love, maybe at 21 wants to join the peace corps, then what?"

You can be in love and want to join the Peace Corps. If he wanted to join the Peace Corps, then I'd kiss him on the head and send him off to Chad for two years. Seems like a 30 or 40 year old man can also join the Peace Corps - I think the average age of a peace Corps worker nowadays is over 30. People of all ages change and want to do new things. A relationship only survives for the longterm if people can change and do new things inside of it.

"there's also the idea that young people may not even realize what they're doing. falling in love is easy and common in younger years, as is mistaking love and infatuation, and maybe falling out of love is easier too. while older guys and gals are typically looking for something steady, solid, and probably long term, the young one may just be unconsciously spreading their emotional wings and testing their emotional limits, and you may be nothing more than a passing lesson as they learn what they want (and don't) in love and life, or even what they're ready for. they may not realize they're unable to handle it till after they've tried and pushed the boundries that first time, after all"

Could happen. Or you can date an older guy who's so hung up on his ex that he'll never be really open for anyone else, or you can date a guy who's incapable of commiting to one woman, or a pathological liar. Older guys have baggage from previous relationships, younger guys have a cleaner slate, but less experience. There's good and bad aspects to both. You can get badly played by a guy at any age, or you can miraculously connect with someone who is ready to embark upon a partnership, honestly and openly, and to learn along the way as we all must do. Even if someone has been in 17 relationships before - they've never been in a relationship WITH ME before, and about that, they and I must learn - together.

How does it work out for you?

It's worked out great. We're pretty happy at 3 1/2 years. It's the second great relationship of my life (I lost a husssband to cancer at 31 after 10 years together) and I'm immensely glad I didn't walk away from it when it was new and seemed like a pretty wacky thing to try to do.

"Are your guys showing signs of regretting committment?

Never. It's hard sometimes, but not being together is unimaginable and dwarfs any of the problems of staying together.

"Needs to move on and persue their own lives?

We pursue our lives together.

"Changes that conflict with your lives and love together?"

Sure. He dragged me to Chicago for his grad school and I lost a beautiful rent-controlled apartment in expensive San Francisco and a job I liked in public radio and sometimes I get a bit sad and homesick (especially during the winter here - ugh). But then I look at this beautiful person who is sharing his life with me and I am grateful and happy. I believe in partnership. And partnership means give and take and having mutual goals, not just individual ones. And I kind've enjoy the changes too. It's a good challenge for me to move around and experience new places and things, and not just sit in my safe little place and not be pushed a little sometimes. I think my forties will be pretty cool.

"general emotional unreadiness or immaturity?"

Sure. He's flaky sometimes and changes his mind. I've posted about it.
My choice to be with him. I remember what *I* was like at 20 and thank my lucky stars he's so much less nuts than
I was :>

But he gives me so much in return that really, it's water under the bridge. I wouldn't trade him for a basket of so-called safety and security. We nake each other happy and that's what matters.

It's not for everybody and those who really want a relationship that doesn't change may be better off avoiding a really young guy. That's fine - we all make our choices. But for me, I would've been a fool to have walked away from this. I don't think soulmates grow on trees, I believe that love is rare and I'm willling to work at it.

So far, so good!

(and here's my early morning post) :)

Desert Spring, i really like a lot of what you said. it mirrors a lot of things i was thinking but unable to solidify enough to put into words when discussing it previously, and also reminded me of things i realized when i was with a YM, and had sort of forgotten over time. i wanted to let you know i think this sort of thing can work, but was mirroring concerns and general opinions i had heard elsewhere... not necessarily my views and opinions up there. :)

your example of having to get up and move to Chicago is a great testiment to your committment and flexibility in helping him. i've heard of couples much older where one or both decided to go back to school to further their career, and obviously to stay together they had to make concessions for each other.

the lack of baggage thing also really makes a lot of sense. one thing i've noticed is, the older i've gotten, the less really open and open to love guys seem to be - especially when you first get to know them. several are jaded and hurt, and convinced woman are all going to hurt them if they let one get close. there's just nothing like pure, unadulterated love and passion eh?


"the arguement against was that people that young (male or female) lacked the necessary life experience to know what they really wanted - out of life, a relationship, or anything"

No argument there. They do.


that was a big one in my discussion i was referring to. that they simply aren't experienced enough to be able to function and give two ways in a real relationships -- both on emotional and practical levels. it's not just a "will he leave you" question, although that seems to be how i came across, but also will he be able to be what you need him to be? how much is he committed to working and helping to provide financial stability (note i said helping, not putting all burdon on the guy), how mature is he in handling being there for you emotionally and resolving problems? what about YM being with OW that have kids and shouldering the responsibility that goes with that?

we all know young guys are playful and fun, that's not in question, but are they responsible enough to really hold up their end of the relationship and really be there for whatever you need them to. or are the OW playing mother to them to an extent? worrying about bills and practical things while they're plotting snipe attacks? :p i know crazy_world said she worries about things he doesn't, and this is a sign of experience with life that she seems to have and he lacks. how does that effect things? do you get upset with him for not understanding why you worry about about some things that he just doesn't understand the implications of?

just more food for thought, and remember, i'm playing devil's advocate here, i'm not necessarily expressing things i think, although some of these things i do sort of wonder about...

j

Snipe! I know what snipe hunting is!

Jaye, I have a little different take on the ow/ym thing. I was never really into ym. I was into older ones, but they all turned out to be assholes. I dated a ym for 2 months, and he was so immature and needy, it was like he just wanted someone to take care of him. Well, I had two kids already, I didn't need another one, so I broke that relationship off, and figured ym just weren't for me. Enter Robin. The night I met Robin, I was actually trying to hook up with my gorgeous single-dad neighbor. He is 3 years older than me. He never showed, but a mutual friend introduced Robin to me. Robin was confident, had lots of facial hair and a deep voice, and he immediately showed me a pic of his 3-year-old son. I thought, "Well, he MUST be at least 30!" I was 36. He had a hard-working job, he had his son 4 days every single week, he didn't go out very much, and he paid rent, bills, and a sitter. I thought, "Well, he's more mature than my 43 -year-old ex-husband!" We ended up talking the first night for 8 hours straight, non-stop! We started dating after that, and found out we had a lot in common. 5 months later, we decided we wanted to live together. I was deeply in love with him, truthfully, from the start, and I was ready for a relationship because I had been single for FIVE YEARS. I was happy, I didn't NEED a man, but I was ready for the right one.

He was 2 months' shy of his 21st birthday. Was HE ready? Well, he had been in a relationship for one and a half years with his child's mother, for two years with somone else before that, and had two more relationships that didn't work out after he left his son's mother (she constantly cheated on him...life with her was Hell!). He was not really looking for anyone, but when he met me, he was just happy being around me. We were like best friends from the start. We discussed what we both wanted the relationship to be like, and it turned out we wanted the same things. We have both put 110% into it. We still have "date night", we still talk about everything, we still consult eachother when making plans or dealing with issues that will affect the other person, we still have mutual love and respect for eachother, and we are working together towards future goals. He has said many times, "I'm not going anywhere! Get that into your head!" I believe him now. It's funny, because I was lying in bed this morning thinking, "What if I WANTED him to leave???" :D I don't think I ever will though. He's about as perfect as they come. He's honest, sincere, trustworthy, hardworking, respectful, loving, caring, compatible, and hey, he's got a really cute ***!!! :D

So you see, some guys know what they want early in life. I think it's got a lot to do with what they went through in their childhoods. Robin had a rough one, and grew up early. Then he had a son at 17 and stepped up to that responsibility. He's had enough drama and chaos to last him a lifetime. He just wants stability and peace. I'm the silly, goofy, spontaneous one. He's the logical, practical, "Spock like" one. We fit eachother to a "tee"!

Hi again Jaye ....

Don't sweat the devil's advocate stuff - it's good to make people work for their opinions - and God knows, I've thought about and heard about all these points ad infinitum since this relationship began.

Here's some more quick responses to what you've brought up (and then I'll shut up and let other people have their say)

"that was a big one in my discussion i was referring to. that they simply aren't experienced enough to be able to function and give two ways in a real relationships -- both on emotional and practical levels. it's not just a "will he leave you" question, although that seems to be how i came across, but also will he be able to be what you need him to be?"

Yep people have to be able function emotionally in a relationship in order to HAVE a relationship. It's a fact. In the case of my boyfriend, he'd been in a 3 year relationship 15-18 with a girl his own age - all through high school - which ended badly, so once he got over being intimidated by my vast age - he basically knew what to do. I might have hesitated a great deal more had this been his first significant relationship, but it wasn't. And we shouldn't assume all guys in their late teens and twenties are sleeping beauties awakened by our touch - they do have lives and have experienced some things :>

But more to the point, you gotta give these things a test drive. Spend some time, watch how he reacts to things, talk about stuff and no, don't throw your heart away until you know it's in safe hands. With ANY guy, not just younger ones. There are a few guys in their thirties and forties that aren't too brilliant at giving and taking in a real relationship, either. You wait and see what you got.

"How much is he committed to working and helping to provide financial stability (note i said helping, not putting all burdon on the guy)"

One of the things that you need to know about someone. Obviously, if you're first goal in life is financial stability through love, than a 19 year old is a bad bet. I prefer to take the responsibility for my own finances, and just look for someone who is willing to take the responsibility for their own, as well. Then we can work out how we do the finances as a couple.

"How mature is he in handling being there for you emotionally and resolving problems?"

Good question and something you need to find out about him.

"What about YM being with OW that have kids and shouldering the responsibility that goes with that?"

I'm happily childfree and fine with that, so we are immune from that particular set of problems. At the moment, he's of the childfree sentiment as well, although that could change. If it does, he'll have to find someone else to have kids with - or look at adopting with me. It isn't on his radar screen right now. Although we do share custody of a kitty cat - which has gone smoothly for two months (although I have been accused of "spoiling" her) :>

"We all know young guys are playful and fun, that's not in question, but are they responsible enough to really hold up their end of the relationship and really be there for whatever you need them to. or are the OW playing mother to them to an extent? worrying about bills and practical things while they're plotting snipe attacks?

Nope. We both worry about bills and we both plot snipe attacks :>

I don't mother him. I occasionally tell him, what, in my experience, might be the best way to handle something, but I'd do that for any friend I had. He does the same for me, and there are things he knows alot more about than I do. In 3 1/2 years, he has been there for me through good and bad and has never been less than totally responsible. I give him permission to change his mind and grow inside the relationship as he needs too, and he has never abused the privilege :>

"Do you get upset with him for not understanding why you worry about about some things that he just doesn't understand the implications of?"

Nope. Can't recall anything he hasn't understood the implications of. We sometimes have different approaches to dealing with families or jobs, but that's because we're different people.

Basically it's just as foolish to say that all younger guys aren't responsible and emotionally present as it is to say that all older guys necessarily are. Not necessarily.

We're all individuals and deserve to be
perceived as we are. I don't automatically date younger guys as a predjudice - but I refused to turn away a great guy when I met him because he was compatible in just about every way except his youth.

His youth is an issue, there are aspects to it that require from me a certain amount of flexibility and generosity. Whether I get back enough in return is a personal decision that everybody has to make for themselves about their particular relationship. I do. So here I am. And I've been in much worse places. I like it here :>

Yeah, what those guys said! This is a good thread.

Can a very young guy give and take in a relationship? You bet. I was married twice to takers. I had a really hard time learning how to accept a giver. He is a nurturing person, which makes him really good at his job, he's a Medication Aide at a nursing home, and loves it. He'll probably wind up being a nurse. Our counselor told us we communicate very well, compared to lots of people.
He encourages me to tell him my needs, and is very patient with me. I try to do the same with him.

With my kid? He picks her up from school on his days off, and there's never a question of whether she should go to daycare or stay home with him when he's home. I've never asked him to, he's just assumed the role. He even gets lonesome for my grandkids. Having one of his own isn't something he's hot on, his family has lousy health problems, and he says its best that his genes end with him. We have furbabies together.

Financially? I can take care of myself, he's my partner. He has his share of the bills, I have mine, we have the same percentage of our pay allocated. This was something we changed when we were going through counseling. I used to be responsible for all that, and he just had his spending money and gave me money for bills. He wanted more independance, I was used to just doing it. Poof, we changed together.

I really don't believe there is more mothering going on in our relationship than any other male-female relationship. I have friends who gripe about lots more about their husbands than I have to about David. He's pretty self-care. The mothering I've had to do solely revolved around teaching, and that's just something that came with the relationship. He didn't know about banking, or loans, or taxes. He does now. He has his own car payment, this year he did his own taxes. He picks up overtime if he thinks he needs to make more.

The older person holding them back bit, I really don't understand. How can someone older, with more financial freedom, and usually with the kids out of the house be more of a chain then a younger less financially secure partner, with two or three small children. Seems to me that a younger person would be freer, knowing their partner isn't dependant on them, so they can have more options. In our relationship I'm the one who's constantly talking about moving, or going places. David keeps saying he's happy where he's at.

Yeah, like Jodi said, there are times that fights are more devastating to the younger, or the first period of boredom, or all those things that we've all been through and realize are temporary, but that's all part of learning. That's mostly what our "bump" was about. And part of the joy to me has been watching him grow, and being so proud that he chose me to grow with.

He never makes me feel old. He never treats me old. He tackles me, and tosses me around, and wrestles with me on the floor, and pulls me on his lap, and babies me. He tells me to drive careful, and fusses about it if he thinks I'm dieting too much, and just plain wouldn't allow me to treat him like an inferior child.

As he gains experience and figures out what he wants, I hope he knows I'll support him in whatever choices he makes, and I'd hope he'd do the same for me.

I do differ with the falling in love being easier, I don't know too many men that would go through everything David had to go through for us to be together and stick it out. I don't know if I would have. He could have fallen in love much easier. He took a lot of abuse, between his parents, and my ex, and my son-in-law, that he shouldn't have had to take, and stuck it out anyway.

I really think its all about the person. Some people are more grown at 18 than others are at 40.

Sorry to interrupt this interesting thread but could I just ask if there is any special thread about "the children question"? Does anybody know? I’ve tried to look it up but couldn’t find any.

When I read Desert Spring writing “I'm happily childfree and fine with that, so we are immune from that particular set of problems” it bubbled up in my mind and I couldn’t help myself from wanting to read more about the boards view upon it. I'm not able to have any of my own and being 40 watching every possible ran away makes me very stressful. I wonder how people handled this question especially being in a relation with a younger guy. I was thinking about trying to adopt. But you wouldn't even know (!) what bureaucracy you have to go through in this country to make this possible, a procedure that'll last in two years. Glad for an input!

// Anna

Anna, can you not have children due to a tubal ligation? You can have your eggs frozen and wait for Mr. Right to come along.

I have two kids, a daughter, 10 and a son, 13 (almost 14), and Robin has a 6-year-old boy. We are a "blended" family.

There ARE special problems that crop up in blended families. Who will discipline when? What will the discipline be? How much authority will the stepparent have? What if the child doesn't accept the stepparent's direction? Here's how we did it:

When Robin and I decided we wanted to live together, we talked to the kids about it first. They were all for it! For the first year, Robin just kind of stepped back and let me "run things" as far as the kids went. He went to work, came home, helped with stuff around the house, but he didn't interfere. Being from a home with a stepfather himself, he didn't want to push himself on my kids too soon. We got engaged six months after he moved in.

About a year after he moved in, we both felt it was time for him to step up his authority over the kids. I made it very clear to them that Robin was the man of the house and they had to respect and obey him as much as me. The kids were ready to do this, having lived with him for a year. They sometimes don't like what he asks them to do (clean their rooms, do homework, etc.) but they don't disobey him. They give ME a hard time now and then, but not him. He helps them with school projects, drives them places, helps get them ready for school sometimes, talks to them about problems. He's been a real blessing. Even though we aren't married yet, my kids call him their stepdad, and introduce him to their friends that way.

I read a book called "Stepfamilies", by Dr. James Bray, and it was very helpful. I think the way we went about it was the right way. It has worked out really well. :)

Hmmmm......relationships. Love or infatuation......longterm, short term, smooth, bumpy, age differences, astrological differences, children, social pressures, etc.....Geeze, who would ever want to get into this mess......I would. Why?.....'cause I'm human.......or crazy.....maybe just strong...or again........crazy.
Who knows?????
The children issue.....I have one amazing little girl....he has two and neither of us want any more.......one issue down.
My days are filled with beautiful young dancers and now, as a teacher, the more beautiful and talented ........the better. Because these dancers are such a big percentage of my life......my y/m is around them a lot too. What the hell, he loves to look at them and they like to flirt with him..so be it....why have a piece of candy when you can own the candy store lol.
As for holding him back........I am the one that needs to slow down, I'm the one who has a job offer in India and would go if I didn't have him in my life...........he is to afraid for me to go there with all the crap going on in those parts. I would go with bells on.......rent a car, drive straight through, Iran, Pakastan, etc...on my way to see Egypt lol.
Life to me is one big adventure........sometimes wonderful....other times...it can really suck.
So far...........this has been the most mutual, loving, respectful, relationship I've ever had.........I'll take my chances and risk the lumps.......enough said.
Bright Blessings, TD

Tinydancer, so vivid and full of life! I agree life is too short to sit on your back watching everyone else doing all the "fun stuff". When you’re in Egypt call me:)...spicy country and spicy food!!!

Bella, your David seems to be such a fine guy, great that you’ve found him! Seems like he’d also been lucky to have found you!I agree to a lot to what you say and also think personality is more than age when it comes to if a relationship gonna be a success. But even though I have a romantic and idealistic heart I'm not that kind of person that I think love conquers every problem there is…

Polly, a child or not is a hard question for me at the moment. Lost one tube in my teenage because of an accident and the other one have been examined several times without any results. In Sweden egg donations are forbidden. Even sperm donations are hard to get, and then I mean hard, very strict controls and the clinics that offers it are few and then they often only allows couples to be inseminated. There is no technique over here to freeze my eggs either. I’ve applied to adopt and the problem is that there are very few countries that allow single parent adoption, and to adopt mean a heavy bureaucracy process.

Suppose I slowly trying to accept the fact that it might not being any biological children. Probably need to go and see some therapist about it, because it getting on to me like a fix idea. But perhaps I could meet a man that has a dozen of them and be a step mother, I would really like that!!! Or perhaps I could just be as happy as Desert Spring without any.

I just have to wait and se what life has in mind for me. Strange, if you only met me 5 years ago, I was totally sure and full of hope, of having a man, at least two kids and a car by now, but hey, here I’m sitting single, confused and chatting on the net …lol…ain’t life surprising you tell me!

Take care,
Anna

This is almost exactly what Im going through at the moment. For those who are not familiar with my story Justin is 21 1/2 and Im 38 and we have lived together for just under 5 years. Late last Oct he came out of the blue and said he just couldn't do it anymore. I won't say that the reason he left was toatally due to him changing but it was a big part of it.

During the last 2 1/2 years there has been alot of bumps in my life. Alot of my fustration with the stress I was dealing with was dumped on him. It would have been alot for any man of any age to handle. I think Justin was starting to feel over whelmed and needed to take some time for himself. He has been very fustrated with his job, he's at the point where he can't really get any further in the company. He wants to start working on a career and a future. I think he feels he can't concentrate on doing this while he's with me because he'd be too busy worrying about his responsibilities to the the boys and I.

He also has never once in his life been able to be totally on his own. He needs to experience this I think before he can even consider settling down for good and now that he is a little older I think he is realizing this. He needs to find himself as an individual just not who he is as a family unit. As for him changing he is not the only one changing, I have as well in the past 5 years. I was married and with children at a very young age and went straight to Justin when I ended my marraige. I think even though this has been a very painful breakup he did it for both of our sakes. We both need to find our independence and find out who we are as individuals.

When we were together Justin was always very responsible, a few times in the relationship he was the sole provider and always did a wonderful job. He treated the kids as his own and always had words of wisdom to give them during trying times, he was the best role model I could have asked for. When he left he made sure the kids and I would be ok and even helped us out financially for 2 months which Im sure there were many things he did without for he could do so.

It has been just over 3 months since he has left and has just recently gotten his own apartment (he stayed with a friend for the first 3 months) and you can see how proud he is of himself. It has only been 2 weeks now that he has been in his place but I can see alot of the things I loved so dearly about him starting to come back. I think now that he's on his own we can both start to heal and get to know one another again. We both have changed in the last few months and it's time to get to know the new us.

As for our relationship after the breakup, the first 2 months were very rocky. Yes there was alot of arguing, fustration, tears and lack of trust from both of us but since the New Year my resolution was to start trying to be understanding about how he was feeling. There has been no more arguing, instead there has been some of the best communication we have ever had. Just recently I can say the trust has been coming back for both of us and there has been a lot of positive things happening between us. We still have a very strong connection and we can still feel the love we have for one another. We are spending Valentines Day together which I think is a positive sign and I have noticed that instead of hashing everything over when we are together we are just concentrating on enjoying each other.

Wow, while I was writing this post he called and asked if he could stop by for a quick visit tomorrow night on his way home from the gun club. I wouldn't have said this a month ago but I think his decision for us to be apart for now was a wise one and that he made it to better our relationship and to see if we were really meant to be. If we can get through this I think we will have bettered our relationship by far.

Brenda

toasty,

i thank you so much for your very insightful post. although i'm sorry you had to bear the pain, i'm glad to hear from somebody that's realized the fears many have deep down, and from the sound of it, is overcoming them!

i've thought about things like taking a guy straight out of his mother's home and into yours, and thus never giving him a chance to have independance and the self-respect and pride of being totally in charge of his own life and succeeding at it.

i feel like if i were in that situation, i'd encourage a YM to have his own place awhile, even if he moved very nearby, and to live seperately for a couple or few years before moving in together for the long haul. this could give him the chance he needed for individuality and growing while allowing the relationship to grow and thrive at it's own pace as well (also without the stress of a live-in situation right up front).

i moved out of home very young and in with a guy, and after leaving that (highly abusive) relationship i know i gained a full new perspective on life while living alone. maybe for some men the idea of living with a woman and helping take care of her and possibly her children is equally as liberating and fulfilling as being independant was for me. i guess we'd have to hear from some of the men on that subject. :)

thanks again everybody for the great posts on the subject!

j

Just a note for Bella and Toasty:

Since we live sort've in the same boat with very young guys - I just wanted to thank you for your all of your honesty about the bumps. It's been really inspiring to see you guys work through stuff with hope and determination and however it all works out in the end, thank you for sharing it with me.

It's helped ALOT!

Love and good wishes to both of you :>

Desert Spring, I feel very much the same. It seems to be many strong and wonderful women on this board that been captured by some great YM who saw their inner shining aura! Some girls ain't it?

Sorry to be such a sour head for the moment, but I really need to keep asking stupid and self focused questions. Desert Spring could I just ask you if you took any special precautions when you met your YM and being childless? Did you discuss the consequences with him? Did you wait before discussing it or were you a quickie and brought it up to daylight early in your relationship? Was it him or you dealing with the subject? How did he react? Does he feel like it’s a big issue for him? Is this an issue that “love” could survive or do you think that at some point in life a YM changes his mind and leaves just to have his own family? I’m happy for any input!

Take care,
Anna

Sharing the pain I was going through was really hard at first. It was hard to admit that my relationship was failing but in the long run it has really helped to have everyone to talk to.

Brenda

Hi Anna,

No such thing as a stupid question except the ones that we don't ask!

I'm not sure that my individual answers will be all that useful to you - but if it helps, I'm glad :>

"Desert Spring could I just ask you if you took any special precautions when you met your YM and being childless"

Nope. We started off just as friends, we worked on a mutual project together, and eventually, having not much going on in that area, I pondered sleeping together. I figured it would be a pretty casual thing given how young he was. And since he spent alot of time being incredibly dense that I was trying to seduce him (I HATE THAT - an entire month of low-cut blouses and nada) - I finally rolled the dice and just plain asked him if he wanted too. The answer was "yes" and we took it from there. It wasn't really an issue at the bginning because we thought we were very casual.

"Did you discuss the consequences with him?"

I told him I loved him about three months in - although I did add that I kind've wished I didn't. He returned the sentiment (the love thing), but didn't think, despite the age gap, that it was quite as unfortunate as I did. He was right :>

"Did you wait before discussing it or were you a quickie and brought it up to daylight early in your relationship?"

I don't remember exactly when we had the conversation, but I told him about the abortion I had at 22, and about my husband dying of cancer at 42. In that conversation, I mentioned that we had been thinking about a child shortly before the diagnosis (I was 30) - and how relieved I was that I hadn't ended up a young single mother. (No unkindness intended to single moms. I just think it would've been really hard for me at that time). He added that he had never wanted kids himself.

"Was it him or you dealing with the subject?"

I'm usually the one bringing it up - probably because I'm the one who doesn't have much time left to change my mind. And I seem to be the one who has any ambivalent feelings at all. He's pretty clear. He likes kids. He doesn't want to have his own. Never has.

"How did he react?"

He reacted with happiness. Most other women he'd ever talked to about it reacted negatively. I didn't.

"Does he feel like it’s a big issue for him?"

Nope. He feels like it's no issue at all. I don't always believe him, but that's how he feels. I can certainly see the advantages in terms of freedom to do what you want but I feel that to some degree the choice was made for me after my husband died. I don't want to have a child right now and *now* is all the time I have. And I don't want to halt everything for baby RIGHT NOW.

"Is this an issue that “love” could survive or do you think that at some point in life a YM changes his mind and leaves just to have his own family?"

I dunno. I know he realizes that I wouldn't be all that happy to hear that from him in five years. The statistics say that about 20% of men say they wouldn't have children all over again (or for the first time) if their wives were amenable, so I think it's quite possible that he may permanently stay in that 20%. He, I think, was always afraid that no girl would want to be with him if he stuck to the no kids thing.

I don't think he should deny himself a biological child if that's what he really, really wants, even if it hurts my feelings, but I'm not going to dump him pre-emptively for a desire that he doesn't have :>

We'll just have to see what happens.

Desert Spring,
Had an awful day at work, everything that could go wrong also did. Just wanted to warn you that it might affect my writing---lol---

And also better tell you that I was nervous, loading you with my questions. I’m glad you took your time to answer me, thanks a lot. It was such calm and peaceful letter that made me tearful, don’t ask me why! Like you’ve reached a point where you had inner peace. Or perhaps it’s just a Freudian projection, that is what I’m looking for myself?

I’m feeling speechless and emotionally exhausted in a way. Think I envy men and am furious upon them. They have more space in time to wait with kids and still being able to have them. I want to shout and scream how unfair life is but suppose in the end I have to accept that I’m born a woman and suppose I can’t change that

I’m glad you found a man that accept you the way you are, with our without kids. And I envy your strength to be able to handle the insecurities that might cause. I wish I had your strength and I wish I didn’t need to think of it as a failure in my life and that I was able to accept it without looking down on myself.

Your letter made me realise I’m not the only one. There are others in my situation and they’d survive. That helped me a lot!

Take care,
Anna

Anna!

You are a full, complete, unique and extraordinary PERSON, with or without a child. We all are. Women are not half a being or less than something, only to be filled out by the experience of parenthood.

I love kids, being a parent, is, I'm sure, a wonderful experience, but it's also a alot of hard work and time.

If kids don't work out for you, whatever the reason, there are a million and one ways to live. and have fun, and experience things, and do good work with the time you have on this planet, and plenty of men who will find you and just you - to be enough.

This isn't an idle pep talk - it's the honest truth.

Look for some volunteer work, there's a million kids that need mentoring and big sisters and support and you are one of the people who can do things like that.

I'm not saying it's not sad to want a family and not have one, but you can take that sadness and channel it into a world of positive things - for the human family that we all belong to.

And you'll feel good :>

Just bumping this thread up and out of the back pages where it had been buried, because I think there are things that may be useful to new members being discussed here. Don't want to lose the good stuff!

~Val

i've seen a lot of new folks asking about whether their relationship with their YM/OW relationship could possibly work lately, whether they should even try, and seeking sage advice. the amazing, awesome, and insightful replies to my own question on the subject seem relevant to so many people's queries that i can't resist another....

BUMP.

seriously, all you new folks that aren't sure how it could possibly work out, please read this thread all the way through. some of the responses here are worth framing, i swear.

it'd also be nice to reliven this a bit, to continuing help people that are interested in the emotional dynamics of growing with somebody who's still very actively growing themselves (not that we should ever stop, mind you). this is all about the bumps along the way, and the rewards we can reap by riding them out.

-j