Marriage fears

Im curious as to how many women are like me and are terrified of taking the plunge the second time around after going through a horrible divorce.

Or better yet, Id love to hear from someone that was in that position but got over it, or found a way to be "ok" with it so she could move on and marry again.

I waffle back and forth almost daily. I KNOW I want to spend the rest of my life with my YM. He has said from almost the beginning that he wants to get married. Every year I get the "speech" from him about how its been 2 yrs...3 yrs..now 4 yrs..and every year I tiptoe around it and avoid it. I keep thinking, we have issues, none of them large and looming, but issues nonetheless and I want them fixed or Im not budging. My friends say Im being ridiculous, that everyone has issues, no relationship is perfect, and if I wait for everything to be perfect, I will never get married. Excellent point, and understood, but I still cant fathom walking down that aisle.

The first time around I was young, and stupid, and didnt put much thought into it. I got married quickly after only 8 months of dating, and there was so much I didnt know about him that if I had I may have chose a different path. I want to be sure. But on the same token I AM sure. I know, sounds silly and makes no sense at all. I dont doubt we are right for each other, and I dont doubt his loyalty to me or his love for me, or mine for him. Honestly, I dont know exactly what my hang up is, other than when I think marriage I think "ohhh nooo never again" my reasoning stinks really...and I fully admit it, but I cant seem to just let that way of thinking go. YM has passed every test out there and no one that knows him would think I was silly for marrying him. My friends, family, even my own children, not only think I should but wonder why the heck I havent already.

Just last night we were in the kitchen chatting and he started talking about what he would want for a wedding, where he would like to have it, when, who would be there, what he would want to wear, how he'd like my 3 boys to be his groomsmen...etc. He was so excited talking about it..and it was so sweet to watch him gush over the prospects...but sad at the same time because I know it hurts him that I wont just jump and say YES LETS DO IT!!! I have made sure to tell him it isnt him, its me, he is wonderful, I adore him, I never want to be without him, but marriage freaks me out...and I know even though I tell him that he thinks it has something to do with him...which I feel awful about.

I got a text from him this morning when I woke up that said. "I cant wait to marry you, even if I have to wait forever, I love you"

uggggh. I need to get over this. I have been to counseling...I thought I had settled everything within myself concerning my divorce...maybe I havent, I just dont know.

Anyone have any wisdom or light to shed???? :(

Lissa...my only input is that I had to reprogram my brain...and that took almost 5 years since my divorce.

By reprogram I mean that I had to cleanse my brain of all the old stereotypes about being married first; you know, the ones you had when you got married young a stupid:yes: (I was married young as well, after knowing my exhb only 6 months).

Back then I wanted a provider, a knight in shining armor, a spiritual leader, a 50-50 co-parent for our biological children together, etc. Stupid expectations, and I didn't have enough time invested in building a friendship first to truly KNOW his character and personality, etc... all of that contributed to the demise (a very hurtful one) of our marriage.

This time I am independent, self-sufficient and do not need a "provider"...rather than a Knight, I simply want an equal partner who has integrity and a loving soul, I want a spiritual sojourner-not a leader, and I don't need a father to my children, but rather a friend and confidant for them...and a friend and "playmate" for myself!!! When I started to see Jake as separate from literally ALL of the former expectations I had for a husband, and realized that his integrity and unwavering love for me was darn solid, I made the leap of faith and allowed myself to entertain thoughts of possibly being married to him one day. That phase lasted about 9 months on it's own before I started warming up to the idea...6 months ago Jake said, " so if I asked you to marry me today what would you say?" I answered "NO WAY! (and added) and I don't really believe in talking about being married even hypothetically until I've been asked."....I wasn't there yet...but by the time he actually got down on his knee in February, I was ready. I think he sensed that I was or otherwise he wouldn't have asked.

It was a process of realizing that at THIS stage in my life, I'm wiser, and I need to live in the moment...not evaluate Jake or a potential marriage to him based on anything bad from the past. I wrote down all of the things I wanted in a mate before I met Jake...and when I reflected back on that list recently, he scored about 95% (whereas my exhb was somewhere in the 30% range:( )

It took a while of actively refusing to hold this relationship to any stupid standard I used to have. For instance...my exhb was a liar (mostly by omission and hiding tons of things from me like secret spending and P.O. boxes, and activities, forgeries, porn, etc.). I was so programmed to think all guys were liars. But from the beginning, Jake has never once given me cause to think he is one. As a matter of fact, he has always been completely honest with me about even the hard stuff. He is forthright about his activities, spending, etc., and he has proven to be the most genuinely honest man I've ever known. When I realized that I could actually, truly trust this man, it was like a new day.

Your ym obviously loves the heck out of you...his text was sooooo sweet!

If there are no red flags in his character, or that gut feeling that you just can't "settle" for what you have together...and you love him... then begin to focus only on him and you TODAY and how you compliment each other in life. Speak affirmations about your relationship and about him (say them to yourself and to him), and I bet your heart will open up in the right time.

Peace with this to you,
K

Thanks so much for your post K, it really made me think and what you said rings so true for me on so many levels.

He is really the most wonderful man I have ever known by far, he has done SO much to prove without a shadow of a doubt that I am what he wants for his life. He moved 800 miles to be with me, left a very profitable business and started over..has never once said he regretted it, to the contrary says it was the best thing he ever did and that he considers himself the luckiest guy in the world. He has provided for me and my children financially, so that I can be at home and continue to be here for them in every capacity. Heck, he even bought me a house when I had to give mine up due to losing all child support when the ex got ill. He is nothing like my ex...and I was quickly giving him the "expectation list" as I was reading your post and I realized he is everything I want and need in a husband at this point in my life...not that I needed to realize that, I suppose I have known it for a long time.

It breaks my heart to see him hurting by my inability to just get with it already and let my fears go...to trust him...and to know once and for all he is NOT anything like the ex...I actually fantasize about the day when I CAN say "yes!" and give him what he has been wanting for so long. I wish I could do it now...but Im not there yet...soon...very soon, I hope.

Thanks again...so much, you were very helpful :)

That was a very helpful post, K. Thanks.

I go back and forth between wanting to get married BADLY, and being scared to death to get married. It's not anything to do with the age gap, it's my baggage from my previous marriage. I have so much baggage, I need a train to carry it all. It sucks. :(

It seems irrational, being as we have been together for 6 years, but I am scared to death to be that hurt again...that disappointed..whatever.

I guess the fact is, even without the marriage license, I will still be devastated if things fell apart. It's not like it any more risk being married at this point, as we live together and he is firmly entrenched in my children's lives, etc.

*sigh* You know, I don't think my ex would ever even be able to comprehend the extent of the damaged his cheating, lying, drinking and abuse caused me...and even if he did he wouldn't care most likely. Thus why I can barely be cordial to him even during a simple phone call.

So, I do logically know where my reluctance comes from, and I do know in my head that it's unreasonable, but I can't seem to change it for the life of me. It's not all the time..like I said it goes back and forth. UGH

That was a very helpful post, K. Thanks.

I go back and forth between wanting to get married BADLY, and being scared to death to get married. It's not anything to do with the age gap, it's my baggage from my previous marriage.

Same here Jo, although I do think the age gap just gives me something else to pick at...to be insecure and untrusting over....even though it is ridiculous and my fears are unfounded..when Im having a really bad anti-marriage "spell" I will throw it in the box of reasons why it isnt a good idea...ie..."in 10 yrs I'll be wrinkly and ugly and he'll want some young hottie" or.."he says he doesnt care if he has any of his own children NOW, but what about in 10 yrs? he'll leave me for someone fertile"...it's stupid...but I do it anyway.

I don't know the specifics of your situation but......

4 years-if you don't know now, when will you know?

Are you treading water or growing the realtionship?

If you found out tomorrow that you only had so long to live would you regret not having been his wife? That sounds melodramatic, but being a younger widow myself, it is not something to take lightly.

I personally cannot see dating/cohabititing with someone for that long and not being sure yet. Maybe you should just tell him you will never want to get married again so that you do not have to constantly deal with it running around in your head, then you can relax. Maybe like when you are trying to get pregnant and it just happens when you least expect it.....you will wake up and be ready.

I don't know the specifics of your situation but......

4 years-if you don't know now, when will you know?

Are you treading water or growing the realtionship?

I do know. Thats the problem. I dont doubt for a second he is the right one and I want to spend my life with him. Its the actual step of marriage I cant seem to bring myself to agree to. Due to past baggage, of course. I logically know in my head that I have no reason at all to be afraid, but I guess its kind of like a kid that has been bitten by a dog...they tend to always fear dogs, even ones they logically know wouldnt ever bite them. Just something I have to get over. Its how that I havent figured out yet, but K's post helped a lot...and I feel I have made some progress over the last year, I just wish it was a little faster coming.

Thanks for your input :)

Maybe you could see a therapist for a bit to learn how to put that baggage away? You don't want to keep from living your life over things you've been through in the past...

Right now it's all in theory. It's easy to think you've made a decision (or can't make one) on something that isn't real yet.

What if he was actually kneeling in front of you with the ring, asking you to marry him?

What would you say - really?

And why hasn't he done it yet? Afraid of rejection?

PS. I wish Jeremy would start thinking about wedding details - I'm going crazy trying to get him to make decisions, LOL!

Right now it's all in theory. It's easy to think you've made a decision (or can't make one) on something that isn't real yet.

What if he was actually kneeling in front of you with the ring, asking you to marry him?

What would you say - really?

And why hasn't he done it yet? Afraid of rejection?

I of course would say yes if he actually was on the knee...but I feel I would do it just to keep from hurting him, I couldnt say no and deal with him being upset...so I dont feel it would be a genuine yes...and he knows that...which is why he hasnt done it....we made a deal that when I got to the point where I felt the "yes" would be a true heartfelt one, I would let him know. I know he has money set aside and is waiting, he consulted with my sons girlfriends father, who is a well known jeweler in our city and planned out the design of the ring.....so its just up to me. baby steps, but Ive come far from where I was even just 2 yrs ago. Hoping one day I will just wake up and go "yep..Im ready", lol.

Kristin..did you feel any reluctance..any shred of doubt about marrying J? Not because of him per se..but any doubts about the age gap, anything brought on by past relationships..etc.?

My second marriage was 6 years after the divorce of my first marriage, and I was SCARED TO DEATH!!! He asked me to marry him after knowing him for... 6 or 7 months, and then it took him another several months to convince me it was a good idea. I became very ill, and he was so helpful and still said he wanted to marry me, so I was convinced that he really loved me and would be a good idea.

My first marriage was a nightmare because my husband was addicted to drugs and alcohol. Along with that always come lies and all kinds of abuses, and being such a brilliant person, he was able to come up with some pretty fancy lies. I made myself sick always searching for the proof (even though I always found it) that he was telling lies.

My second husband didn't drink or do any drugs (although he had tasted beer before, that was only a one-time thing).

The first 2 years of my second marriage were really blissful. He was SO different from the first. Unfortunately, the anti-depressants that he was given when in college to increase his concentration (didn't work) caused him to BECOME depressed, and to exhibit really bizarre behavior. Part of that was compulsive lieing. So again.... the lies. It also caused him to turn from a really peaceful, pleasant man, into a monster sometimes, and abusive, too.

The first divorce cost me financially, too - about $25,000 after all was said and done. The second divorce, I did what I could just to keep us out of court and not have any complications at all. Second husband had gotten us into $60,000 debt with his compulsive spending (also I think a symptom of the Zoloft - at least that is common, from what I found out in doing some extensive research into it). So after that was down to a balance of $15,000 left to pay, he agreed to pay that off, and I agreed not to ask for any spousal support. I believe he's brain damaged and cannot take care of himself, so I felt it would be cruel to insist on any support from him after he left. I may be wrong, but that's the decision I made. The divorce cost me nothing. He paid $900 and the last of the credit card debt (which is in his name only anyway).

My YM now... I do get scared about the prospect of marrying him sometimes. But I have been watching/listening so very carefully for red flags of the behavior of telling lies, or any obsessive/compulsive behavior, or any drugs or alcohol use, etc. The thing that scares me about marrying now is my age. I expect every time I marry that I am going to be in it for the rest of my life (unless my life is in danger or my kids are being abused). Otherwise, I invest so much into working through problems - I spent 10 years with husband #1, and 7 years with husband #2. Now I'm 46. I'm afraid of investing a long time and then if it doesn't work out, being too old, alone, and not ever finding "the one".

On the other hand, having come to this web site and realizing that "the one" could just as easily come around even if I'm 70 (and actually, that has just happened to a friend of my mom's, too - the lady is 70 and just getting married again), I am not really having that fear anymore.

Now my YM has been so open with me about so many things. I feel like he's an honest man. He questions ME and told me honestly.. he wants to marry me so badly, but he is a little afraid that I may not be who he thinks I am. I told him that was good - that means he's not entering into this lightly or with impulsivity. He wanted to know how I deal with matters. I reminded him that he's usually on the phone with me when I am dealing with matters, so he can tell from that how I am. He doesn't know it yet, but I am an open book, and "what you see is what you get".

I really feel that either of my other two marriages would have worked out and been wonderful, even with life's problems, and individual quirks, and whatnot.. if only drugs and alcohol had not been involved. My YM not only does not use them, but he sees from people all around him who use them what a destruction that they can cause. But what's even better - I have witnessed him standing firm against using them and telling his friends NOT to also.

I guess my fear is in the investing of time again, and money. But I think if we just have a religious marriage, and not a civil one, I'd feel comfortable that if it didn't work out, the 50%/50% community property laws would not apply (i.e., I would not have to take 50% of the debt he gets us into if that should happen again). Otherwise, living together, or just dating that long term exclusively..... it's the same as being married to me. If I am willing to make the decision to be with him long term exclusively, going through the marriage ceremony isn't any big deal to me.

We continue to talk about all sorts of issues.... so far, we have been able to communicate really, really well. If we have some misunderstandings, we're also very patient with each other and get down to the bottom of what the misunderstanding was about. We do just keep feeling more and more sure, and more and more in love. So.... I'm about ready to do it... I'm 99% there.

In my case.. he's SO YOUNG.. I have the added fear that his attitude and behavior may change in a few years from now. On the other hand... he mostly never acts like a typical 20 year old either, so maybe that is a fear I should put aside, too.

Thanks for your reply Noor.

I too fear the " changing his mind " as he gets older thing. But I keep telling myself anyone could do that, heck, *I* could do that...but there is that "young" thing and as we all know when you are younger you are much more impulsive and you need to live to learn....I dont feel he has lived much...at least not in comparison to me. And I worry he is going to wake up one day and decide he needs to expand his horizons and it wont include me. Typical fears I guess being in an AGR, but not easy to get over..and one I have seen happen first hand. One of my closest friends mom married a man 12 years her junior, at the time they married she was 39 and he 27, she had two kids, he had none. She knew having more would probably be difficult and he said he didnt care, he was perfectly fine just having her 2 boys. 10 yrs later....well...yeah, he changed his mind and left her because he wanted children.

I think men hit that "I need to procreate" urge much later than women...usually in their late 30's or early 40's if they have no kids, they all of the sudden are facing middle age and feel the need to have them.
I have 4 kids, honestly, Im not crazy about having any more, but I promised him I would consider the idea of ONE baby, I have, and if I get pregnant, fine, but Im creeping up on 38 and ....something tells me it isnt going to happen. He claims to be perfectly fine with that and if it doesnt happen, oh well, he loves my children as if they were his own, and is very close to them, but I have a hard time believing that will be enough for him as he gets older.
He is extremely loyal, and I dont think he would ever just up and leave me for a reason like that, but I can see him staying in it forever, and just being unhappy and unfulfilled, which to me is almost worse.

ugggh, I could go on and on, but I wont..this past week hasnt been a good week for settling my fears...hoping next week is better, ::sigh::

I have 4 kids, honestly, Im not crazy about having any more, but I promised him I would consider the idea of ONE baby, I have, and if I get pregnant, fine, but Im creeping up on 38 and ....something tells me it isnt going to happen. He claims to be perfectly fine with that and if it doesnt happen, oh well, he loves my children as if they were his own, and is very close to them, but I have a hard time believing that will be enough for him as he gets older.
He is extremely loyal, and I dont think he would ever just up and leave me for a reason like that, but I can see him staying in it forever, and just being unhappy and unfulfilled, which to me is almost worse.

ugggh, I could go on and on, but I wont..this past week hasnt been a good week for settling my fears...hoping next week is better, ::sigh::

At what point do you give him the credit and trust he has earned, start believing what he tells you, and actually live life instead of worrying about it to the point that you could end up damaging a wonderful relationship...whether it last 5 years, 15 or 50?

I think almost anyone would eventually get worn down from someone doubting them constantly, no matter what their age. Your guy isn't THAT young...at 25 many people have found the person they WANT to spend the rest of their lives with. And yes, many relationships, no matter what the age of those involved, end up not working out. But should we pass up wonderful, loving partners because of our fears, or embrace the opportunity to have someone love us as much as your guy has shown he loves you?

P.S. I know you know this, but no one is guaranteed a lifetime with another person....cancer, crime, accidents can take away those we love (or us) and leave us mourning the days we spent doubting our loved ones - and then they are REALLY gone.

I TRULY hope you can get past your fears and let this person love you as best he can. You both deserve that...

eponavet said it all... read, re-read as necessary

Thanks for your response eponovet :)

I know all these things, I am the first to admit that it is a problem and the first to admit it is unfair to him, as I have said in past posts, it pains me to see him "waiting" when I know how much he wants to move forward.

I dont doubt him to him...I dont say things like.."I think you may change your mind" or "what if in 10 yrs???" those are all thoughts I struggle with but do not share with him verbally because I KNOW they are unfair considering he has shown no evidence of being untrustworthy nor has he ever waffled on his feelings. So, no, he isnt getting "worn down" by me "constantly doubting him" because I am sure to let him know this is mostly me, and not him...and I want nothing more than to get over it so I can go on to marry him without all this baggage hanging off of me.

Most of this is due to past experience and a 17 yr long marriage that ended horribly and unexpectedly and my inability to put my heart on the line completely again....its a healing process I suppose and it is taking me a long time, longer than most, but Im committed to getting past it and am trying the best I can to do the best for both of us, its just taking a lot longer than I would like. You all here have been very helpful though in the progress, just talking about it has helped me a lot...and I thank you :)

I'd had not one, but TWO failed marriages. My first was a shotgun wedding in my boyfriend's fraternity house (the 1st ex and I are now friends and we still call it the "wedding in a week" that my mother orchestrated). It lasted about 7 years. My second wedding was supposed to be The One That Would Last. I married a guy with the right job who lived in the right neighborhood, drove the right car. He even played guitar and piano - another musician! Yes! A kindred spirit! And then I learned that he was pyschologically and physically abusive. I stayed for 10 years before I couldn't take it anymore.

I decided that maybe I'd date a little but obviously marriage wasn't for me. I quit. I think, though, that my issues were different from yours. I thought I was a failure in this area because I obviously lacked that certain something that enabled me to choose men wisely.

And then, just when I got so I was comfortable with the idea of maybe being one of those single little old ladies, Tim came along. He knew my baggage, liked me anyway, and then combined patience with persistence. So here we are, four years later and I am glad - so very glad that I finally took a chance. I adore my husband, I'm so thankful for what we have and I just want to shout at people sometimes and go, "Look at me! ME! I'M finally in a GREAT marriage!"

As I write this, my sweet husband is standing behind me kissing my neck after bringing me a refill on my coffee. When you're ready to make that leap, believe me, it can be so worth it. Just keep your eyes open while you're jumping. *smile*

Thanks for your reply Noor.

I too fear the " changing his mind " as he gets older thing. But I keep telling myself anyone could do that, heck, *I* could do that...but there is that "young" thing and as we all know when you are younger you are much more impulsive and you need to live to learn....I dont feel he has lived much...at least not in comparison to me. And I worry he is going to wake up one day and decide he needs to expand his horizons and it wont include me. Typical fears I guess being in an AGR, but not easy to get over..and one I have seen happen first hand. One of my closest friends mom married a man 12 years her junior, at the time they married she was 39 and he 27, she had two kids, he had none. She knew having more would probably be difficult and he said he didnt care, he was perfectly fine just having her 2 boys. 10 yrs later....well...yeah, he changed his mind and left her because he wanted children.

I think men hit that "I need to procreate" urge much later than women...usually in their late 30's or early 40's if they have no kids, they all of the sudden are facing middle age and feel the need to have them.
I have 4 kids, honestly, Im not crazy about having any more, but I promised him I would consider the idea of ONE baby, I have, and if I get pregnant, fine, but Im creeping up on 38 and ....something tells me it isnt going to happen. He claims to be perfectly fine with that and if it doesnt happen, oh well, he loves my children as if they were his own, and is very close to them, but I have a hard time believing that will be enough for him as he gets older.
He is extremely loyal, and I dont think he would ever just up and leave me for a reason like that, but I can see him staying in it forever, and just being unhappy and unfulfilled, which to me is almost worse.

ugggh, I could go on and on, but I wont..this past week hasnt been a good week for settling my fears...hoping next week is better, ::sigh::

Wow...I truly do love this site..I thought I was the only one thinking about the whole baby thing. My ym doesnt havent any children either..and I am 42 and surely not about to have anymore. I have 5 children and four grandchildren, he has always said.." thats not a big deal, if I have a child I will if not I won't"...but like you I think..what if?....Part of my problem also is that I do have so many children, I find it hard to believe that some people truly dont want to have children. I have met many couples who have chosen not to have children, and it seems so unusual to me..I have to change my mindset. I actually suggested at one point (silly silly) that he go out and father a child now, and just get it over with...needless to say he didnt speak to me for about 2 weeks...lol.. I was doing a good job of not thinking about this for a while, and one day I looked at his myspace page and where it says children...he put SOMEDAY...that sent me into another tailspin...but its just a web page right?..ughhhhh..I try to give him credit for knowing what he wants after all he is not that young..33...just younger than me, and I admit he has not wavered from day one..and I have finally stopped asking him...why he wants a relationship with me..he quit answering anyway...

As I write this, my sweet husband is standing behind me kissing my neck after bringing me a refill on my coffee. When you're ready to make that leap, believe me, it can be so worth it. Just keep your eyes open while you're jumping. *smile*


Congratulations to you Kelly for all that you have now...after going through so much :) . It makes me happy to read stories like yours, and it proves even more to me that not getting over this isnt an option. I have the great guy, like your Tim, I just need to find that place in myself where I can take the chance like you did.

I have 5 children and four grandchildren, he has always said.." thats not a big deal, if I have a child I will if not I won't"...but like you I think..what if?....Part of my problem also is that I do have so many children, I find it hard to believe that some people truly dont want to have children. I have met many couples who have chosen not to have children, and it seems so unusual to me

you absolutely are not the only one that thinks of this, lol....I think many, if not most, OW in this situation at one time or another agonize over this issue, its a big one. I too dont understand the lack of interest in some people to have kids, but I understand it is true for many. My YM is not one of them though. He very much would like to have a child of his own, but he is ok with the prospect of not having any if that is what the cards hold for us. I truly believe he genuinely feels that way right this moment, but I also believe it is highly unlikely that he will retain his feelings 10 yrs from now. That is a risk I have to take though, if I want to be with him, and I most definitely do. The desire to have children is a pretty big one, and he already has it at 25, has had it since I met him at 21, he is just resigning himself to possibly NOT having what he wants, and that bothers me. I agreed to try, because I dont want to rob him of that experience if I am indeed capable to getting pregnant. I know full well how wonderful it is to be a new parent, and if he wants that, he deserves to have it. Thing is, I dont think its going to happen. We havent used birth control in over 8 mos, and so far, not even a scare. Not to say that means there is no hope, 8 mos isnt that long, but it certainly isnt encouraging. :(

Wow...I truly do love this site..I thought I was the only one thinking about the whole baby thing. My ym doesnt havent any children either..and I am 42 and surely not about to have anymore. I have 5 children and four grandchildren, he has always said.." thats not a big deal, if I have a child I will if not I won't"...but like you I think..what if?....Part of my problem also is that I do have so many children, I find it hard to believe that some people truly dont want to have children. I have met many couples who have chosen not to have children, and it seems so unusual to me..I have to change my mindset. I actually suggested at one point (silly silly) that he go out and father a child now, and just get it over with...needless to say he didnt speak to me for about 2 weeks...lol.. I was doing a good job of not thinking about this for a while, and one day I looked at his myspace page and where it says children...he put SOMEDAY...that sent me into another tailspin...but its just a web page right?..ughhhhh..I try to give him credit for knowing what he wants after all he is not that young..33...just younger than me, and I admit he has not wavered from day one..and I have finally stopped asking him...why he wants a relationship with me..he quit answering anyway...

I love this site, too... whew! what a relief it brings to a worried heart in an age gap relationship!

My YM told me this morning, "Look.. don't take this the wrong way, but....I really wish I could have children with you." He went on to explain that it's not really a wish to have children of his own, but just that he wished that TOGETHER we could have children, and then he said, "But I may not even be able to have children, even if I wanted them... you know.. a lot of people never do have children." (I knew what he was talking about - I was one of those who was childless for the first 7 years of my first marriage, then had so many surgeries and emergencies, that I lost my felopian tubes and couldn't have any more children after that - except via in vitro - which is how I got my two lovelies.)

So... he hasn't wavered either, really. In the past, whenever this issue has come up between me and a potential husband, it's always been that they really wanted to have children of their own, and the guy never ever thought that HE might ever be the one that causes the childless marriage. My YM pointed THAT out as well - that it could be HIM that couldn't have children anyway. Then he also inititated a discussion about how people can also be ignorant about the fact that it's the male's sperm that determines whether it's a boy or girl baby that's born, and how some men ignorantly blame the women for not giving them a "male heir". I thought that was an incredibly mature conversation and understanding of things ... for a 20 year old. These are the kind of conversations that keep endearing me to him.

You ARE living together, aren't you? Sharing your heart and your life and the mundane everydayness of existence? I think I remember that from your other posts. Marriage is a symbol for "exactly that" - just with the proviso that you hope and want for it to go on forever.

My guess would be, since you're not having any problem doing the things that marriage are, that what you're tripping on is the idea of the "foreverness". Namely that you thought that once, gave it a go for a long seventeen years and it didn't pan out - so you're *not* going to fall into that trap again.

That's pretty normal and natural under the circumstances. Your sub-conscious is trying to protect you. Of course you love him and of course you know he's not the same man as your ex-husband - you wouldn't be living with him if you had those kinds of doubts. But there's something about the symbology of forever that feels dicey.

Truth is, you need more time. That's not psycho, it's not dysfunctional, it's not a terrible problem. It's a real, logical response to what happened in your life. Can you own it without feeling so guilty?

Guilt's pretty poisonous stuff and in the end, it can delay a lot of healing that needs to happen because you're so busy feeling lousy and castigating yourself that nothing else happens.

I know it's hard when someone else has to do things differently because of the stuff one person is carrying, but the truth is that the baggage-free person is a myth. Nobody is.

This is yours and he loves YOU and he has to wait a while for you to feel okay with getting married again. So what? He has your heart, your love, your companionship - every day. That is more imprtant than the white dress - on every level.

And that will come in time. When you feel good about it - and you will. Just not quite yet.

LOL - okay. So as I'm reading all of your responses to our well-intended words of wisdom, OhLis, the thought has occurred to me. Logically, you already know what we're telling you. All of it. So then the real question is, how do you get your heart to follow your head, isn't it?

And the answer to that question can really only be answered by you. We love, we hurt, we laugh, we cry. Sometimes you've just got to accept that you're never going to fully experience all of the fullness of love until you're willing to become vulnerable to it. And what's the worst that can happen if you do? You hurt again but you'll survive. When your heart decides the leap is worth the risk, you'll do it.

DS and Kelly you are both very right. I do know. I am committed in every way to him but the "big leap" to forever is indeed the stumbling block.

DS, I do feel very guilty, and I suppose I need to knock that off, because I can only do what I am capable of doing in the time frame in which I am capable of doing it, so to feel guilty for it, is most likely counter productive.

I guess I just see so many people in my same position (new relationship, after a divorce) that dont even hesitate and they just jump right in after only 6 mos or a year of knowing their new SO and tie the knot. It makes me feel inept, or somehow wrong for wanting to wait, like I am saying I am unsure of this man, which I am not, I am unsure of ME. I want to feel the way I should about the possibilty of getting re-married. I should be excited, overjoyed, looking forward to the future, but instead I am afraid, overly cautious, and discriminating.

Things are coming along slowly but surely, I will at least discuss "wedding" things with him now and participate in conversations that involve marriage related topics...ie...he was saying the other day how he doesnt think women should change their last names when they get married, that to him it says the woman "belongs to the man" and he doesnt like that. I gave my opinion on it and said I thought it was a fine thing to do, because once you marry you are a union, a family, and the family should have one name. He asked if I would change the name I have now (my married name) back to my maiden name and I said, "no I dont see a reason to, I have 4 children with that name, and it has been my name for 20 yrs. I see it as MY name, not the exhbs, I dont even think of it as his name, I think of it as my childrens and I have no negative attachments to it." He said he didnt like it, it made him feel like I was still a part of the exhb, but he had never looked at as also being the name of my kids and understood how I could see it that way. He jokingly suggested I hyphen my maiden and married names to compromise.We had a few laughs in between thinking of names that would be very difficult to deal with if you hyphenated them...ex...Shwartzkoph-Antonelli..lol and then he said, "OR we could avoid all of this silliness and you could just marry me already and have MY name"

For once I didnt recoil and laugh it off by saying something like..."yeah right" or..."I dont think so". I simply said, "well, honey, when I marry you, I promise, I'll consider a hyphen." Sounds silly I know...and so trivial...but hearing those words come out of my mouth left a big impact on both of us, and really gave me some hope that maybe the fog is lifting.

Thanks again to everyone that has given such thoughtful responses. I really appreciate it :)

LOL! Okay, so I'm guessing after - what did you say? four years together? You probably know most of his good points and bad points. And you're still together :)

I knew that if I said those vows to anyone again, it wasn't going to the fairy-tale-magical-not-quite-real experience that it was before. I would be making an incredibly important statement about dedicating my life to this one person and that this was IT. Which meant that I would have to trust that he was taking this as seriously as I would be. That was it for me. Trust. Could I trust him to take this as seriously as I do and could I trust that *I* was making the right decision here? And eventually, there was just a leap of faith that I decided to take. We'd been together for two years when I decided to take it.

I didn't mind the idea of BEING married but the idea of GETTING married - saying those vows out loud and actually signing a CONTRACT - put knots in my stomach. You know that movie, The Runaway Bride? I felt like that. Even though some people gave us grief for it, our wedding was PERFECT for me (those people are long gone from this site and we thumb our noses to them anyway). Our friends witnessed it online but nobody was in the room with us other than the pastor. Plus, Tim knew how terrified I was so we just walked down the aisle together, holding hands.