I'm having a really hard day today....

I am having a really hard day today. Due to recent culminating events surrounding a crime that our family was subjected to, we're all feeling hypersensitive again and working through the pain. But the kids each and I go to the therapy for this separately, and I believe that they have brought into the mix the issue of my YM.

The therpaist can't break confidences, but I'm pretty sure I can tell by the questions she asks me what the kids have been talking about because then she turns around and asks me questions that I think she wouldn't have any prompt for other than something the kids have said.

Today she asked about my YM and if he's still in the picture. Now, I have mentioned him to her before, but not anything about his age. Today she asked how old he is, and I said, "he's younger." She gave me that stern, knowing look, and said, "how old is he, Karen?" I was honest.. I said 20.

Ah..the pencil started pushing really quickly. So I quickly started to explain the whole story of how we met, and how I was disturbed and against the idea at first, but that i had done a lot of research and found that it's not as uncommon as most would think. I mentioned Brazil and Tunisia as places where it's actually quite common for older women to marry younger men. She wanted to know if this was a cultural thing (she's knows I'm a muslim) or if it was in general. I said, "it's in general.. across the globe." Then she started in with the "mother figure" lingo.

I stopped her and said that's probably what all of us first had in mind, but that actually, we're mostly all surprised to learn that there's none of that really entering into the relationship (other than to the point that men usually go to really appreciate a good meal like their mama used to cook!)

We didn't have much time to discuss it before our session was over, but she wanted to know what it was I was looking for in a mate. I listed all the great things about him (which made me feel good to say to her, and lucky to know I've got a man with all those good qualities), but still.... she made me feel like I was psychologically abnormal - like a pedophile. Now I'm afraid of two things.. 1) she's going to label me as such and I wonder if there's going to be custody trouble now if she thinks she's required to report me to the Child Protective Services, and 2) afraid even more today that my YM will change on me as he "grows up".

I hate to say that, and it is opposite to what is actually occurring - i.e., his love for me seems to be getting stronger and stronger, and says he doesn't care what kind of problems or issues I might come with... he wants to marry me and believes he'll never find another woman like me. He doesn't want to pass up this opportunity - "the best thing" in his life.

I just feel like crying. Have any of you who have been in relationships with a VYM ever been accused of being a pedophile, or had a psychologist or psychiatrist call you a "mother figure"? Have you who have gotten married to a VYM seen much of a change in the VYM - in the negative way - as he passed say, the 25 year mark?

I don't want to give him up.. but I'm scared, especially today :(

Naznoor, your post deserves some attention on its own, so I moved it from OHlis' thread and made you your own thread.

I haven't personally experienced the issues you're dealing with, as my bf was past being a VYM when we met, so I can't give any advice, but I'm sure others here can.

i'm sorry for the confusion you are feeling ...

go with the counseling, even what angers you with it, perhaps things WILL become clearer for you

*H*

Naznoor, I sent you an IM, but apart from that, I wanted to tell you that the 25 yr old mark is when they stop being considered vym anymore.

I would be lying if I said "No, they don't change"
My husband will be 27 next month and is right in the middle of, what is sometimes called a Saturn return.
Big changes here, he questions more, has WAY more opinions, can, at times, be a total pain in the A:eek: :eek:
Then again, I have gone through so many changes myself in the past 5 years that I can't really complain. I have been a total pain in the butt too.
Change is inevidable, it is how we deal with those changes that will create either the harmony.......or drama.
Blessings, Tinydancer

Two things come to mind off the top of my head:

a) In my five year relationship with a man who was 27 yrs my junior, I had a lot more of the "mother figure" b.s. from friends than I ever did from my therapist, and

b) a therapist who is jumping to conclusions about an age-gap relationship isn't providing non-judgmental support. I wouldn't go to such a therapist. I'm not saying she doesn't have value if you are getting something out of it, but I've had a lot of therapy in my life time and been through 4 therapists. The one I'm with now is the best I've ever found. She would never goad me into telling someone's age, and she would never make some stereotypical comment like your therapist apparently made. Furthermore, how is it relevant to the reason you are going there?

Just food for thought.

First, Your counselor has no reason to report you to CPS. Nothing is going on that is neglectful or abusive to them, right? For the fact that you and the kids are in counseling tells me that you are a responsible mother. 20 versus 47 is a stretch, but it's not illegal.

Second, I was in counseling through several years of dating/relationships. My counselor was always very supportive, but she would ask me questions that would make me kind of defensive. Whatever we discussed always helped me see things more clearly though.

Third, have you met this young man in person? I'm sure I will get an argument here from you and others on my view, but you can't be sure that he is what you think he is until you spend time with him in person. I've met men online, too, so I am not saying this without experience of my own.

Finally, a guy who is 20 will change and there could be some bumps in the road, but that doesn't mean he would stop loving the person he's with. I don't necessarily think a 20 year of man knows what he wants for the rest of his life, regardless if he is telling you he does. There are always exceptions though.

Good luck :)

looking back on it and it does seem impossible but I met adam when he was 21. I was 41.

I cant believe looking back on it that he was really that age, my daughter pointed it out to me, here it is goin on six years later and the age difference is still a non issue.

I agree with tiny dancer about the pain in the butt thing, we all have our moments of stupidity.

Since you are not going to your therapist for support then remember you are the one PAYING HER, if she does not support your decision, fire her for your benefit but keep her for your kids.

But for God sakes dont act guilty for your choice. I would eat someone alive before doing that. Although at one time I was utter intimidated.

This too shall pass and it gave you a great insight to your own insecurity regarding the worlds view of your relationship.

She gave me that stern, knowing look, and said, "how old is he, Karen?" I was honest.. I said 20.

Ah..the pencil started pushing really quickly. Then she started in with the "mother figure" lingo.

I have found therapy to be most beneficial when it is supportive. She sure seemed like she was using "judgemental therapy" right there--and I'm not really sure how well validated that method is! Now I'm not necessarily saying dump her, but I have found that it is best in these sorts of situations to address what she made you feel like up front.

If you can address the concerns you have with her, and she can address the concerns she has for you (in a non-judgemental way) then maybe you can do some growing from it... But if at that point, it still seems judgemental, then it doesn't seem very productive... and you should re-evaluate your options!

I agree with Sante...first and foremost, she would have no reason to report you to CPS. There are plenty of men out there who date far younger women and still get to be fathers to their children..so I can't imagine it's any different for us.

Everyone in my town and my children's schools knew about James (and he was 18 when we got together!), and Im sure if someone was required to report it the school was...but no sign of trouble.

I agree that it sounds like your counselor is rather judgemental. If you like your counselor..maybe you could just choose that as an off limits topic. Your not having any problems in your relationship, and it's not what you are there to work through with him/her, sooooo...

(hugs) I hope your feeling better soon. I certainly wouldn't change one thing about my relationship based on what your counselor said.

When I was dating my husband my therapist acted the same way. Of course she didn't come right out and say it. But she was dancing all around it. She just looked at me with a puzzled look and said, "My concern is why you would be interested in someone so much younger than yourself." I remember it made me feel cheap and terrible. We only have about a 10 year gap. I stopped seeing that therapist altogether. It appears she didn't know what the flip she was talking about anyway because I married my vym (he was then only 18 when I was seeing the therapist). We married when he was 19. AND I would like to add we have been happily married and having the time of our lives for ...drum roll please...nearly 14 years.
I said that to let you know, I wouldn't necessarily put stock in that therapist.:no:
Best wishes to you Naznoor. I hope you get to feeling better about all of this. If you have lost trust and confidence in this therapist maybe you should aquire a different one.

I'm only concerned that if you drop her for yourself and keep her for your kids that she might influence your kids in regards to your relationship with him. They're obviously already talking to her about him. Perhaps you should speak to your kids about him in depth??

When I was with my exvym, and in family counseling to help my sons deal with my divorce from my exhb one year earlier, I was literally chided in front of my children for being with a 21 year old...and, get this....it was in front of my exhb and his new wife also because the "therapist" wanted us all together for sessions. It was CRAZY, and a NIGHTMARE. I didn't know anything about counseling at that point (had never been), and didn't know that having us all together like that, and putting me down in front of my children (with my exhb in the corner nodding his head) was absolutely WRONG, and HORRIBLE for the kids as well as unprofessional.

I left each session sobbing after being ganged up on. He would say things like: "your ym is young enough to be your son !!! come on, Karen, you know better than that. You must NOT have this boy around your house when you have your sons at home as that is putting them in an emotional conflict that's not fair to them..." blah blah blah.

The therapist was paid for by my exhb's insurance and was primarily for the boys' healing, not the adult's.

I demanded that my exhb and I fire the therapist and hire one that we both could agree on after finding out from 2 other independent therapists that he was a total freak, and basically an embarrassment to the profession in our community. He had a history of being a creep...

My exhb wouldn't budge...of course not, he was getting free support for the illusion that I was a perverted, unfit mother.

I contacted the psychlogists governing board in my state, and started the process to file a complaint, and told my exhb I would never return to a session with this freak again. A week later, my exhb had found a new therapist (the first one probably got notice of my filing, and backed out scared). The second therapist was fine...supportive of my parenting and my sons...never even brought up dating or whatever.

As a final note: last year (3 years since my fiasco) the first therapist had his license revoked for having sex with a patient. This was a married father of two who was supposedly a church-going moral man who just KNEW I was perverted or something.

Pride comes before a fall.

I would find another therapist...quickly....My oldest son was very much swayed/affected by that creep psychiatrist and the followup I'm sure he got from his dad back then. My younger son just said to me one night (he was 11), "Mom, why does dr. ----- say all those mean things about you?":( He has done fine since.

Since you know that your kids have brought up your YM in therapy, why don't you sit them down and have a heart-to-heart? Ask them to be honest and express all their concerns to you. Show them that you're willing to hear them out, no matter what their opinions are. You may not agree, but still be willing to listen.

I'm currently in therapy, and I had mentioned the YM I met, who is also 20. The therapist reminded me that he WAS over 18, and therefore I wasn't doing anything wrong by spending time with him. I think that the therapist reacted inappropriately.

There is no reason to report you to CPS. You have not done anything wrong, nor have you abused the children.

Both you and your fiance will grow and change. That does not mean that you will stop loving each other. Enjoy what you have today.

And thanks for moving this thread off the one that I hijacked. I really was having a bad day.

My kids and I are in therapy because...well...let's see if I can get the point across by using a "what if"...

Suppose that your family was in therapy to heal from the trauma of a child molestation by a pedophile who was also a family member. Suppose it was your child that had been the victim. You'd probably be under the microscope anyway as to what type of a family environment there was during the pedophile's childhood, and a therapist would probably also be looking to see if there were any type of a "red flag" pattern in your own environment in which you were raising your own children.

Suppose you're 46 and your young man has just turned 20. The therapist talks to everyone individually and cannot break confidences, but you can tell what she's been talking about with the kids when she clearly knows about an age gap when YOU haven't ever mentioned anything about age during your sessions with her.

Could such therapist under such conditions be justified in being interested in and concerned about such a YOUNG age of your young man? Could it be perceived as a danger to such children at this time? Could it be perceived as an "obvious" lack of judgment on YOUR part (especially given the circumstances of what you've just been going through for the past 10 months or so)?

Suppose your therapist is the best you've ever seen otherwise. She's helped with healing, and supporting all the emotions and actions that you've gone through in the past months while dealing with such a tragedy.

Suppose she's really great at keeping confidences, too, so much so that your kids feel comfortable with telling her things and not comfortable with sharing with you. Suppose you have ALREADY tried to have a heart-to-heart with them?

And then.. suppose you're the only person in your entire family who converted from one religion to Islam, and you face ignorance all around you from educated down to the most uneducated about what Islam is and who Muslims are... You'd probably also be automatically be assessed as "crazy" by most people. Maybe the relationship with a very young man could be seen as a dangerous "cult-like" religious practice, one that the therapist could say is harmful to the children just by virtue of the fact that it seems so uncharacteristic of you. (In other words, maybe it appears to your therapist that you're losing your sense of reality or self control because you've gone and done something so totally opposite of all she knows you to be already - a very intelligent, responsible, caring, devoted, protective mom.)

Suppose you knew also that the CPS in some places has a power that is beyond what they should have and that statistics have been that as high as 900,000 children are removed by CPS from their homes EACH YEAR across the United States for reasons that turned out to be no reasons for removal at all.

Suppose your young man wasn't doing anything, but impressing you more and more as to his maturity and understanding of the world, and he's a rock of support, and a great friend, someone that keeps you smiling and feeling serene throughout this traumatic period. Suppose you really felt that he'd not only be a great husband for you (and he has already asked you to marry him), but you feel he'd also be a great support and good influence on your children who have had nothing but losers as male role models up until now.

But suppose that, while you've spent hours and days and months on the phone with your 20 year old man, "traveling with him" (on the phone) while he goes about his daily and other activities, you haven't actually met in person yet. Suppose you really felt that if only the children could get to meet him and get to know him in person they would probably really like him a LOT......

What would you do? Would you break it off with the young man to save any hard feelings of the children and to prevent anyone from reporting to the CPS? Would you keep the relationship, but just keep moving slowly from a distance of over 3,000 miles but risk that the CPS could get a report (even if nothing is illegal)?

Hmm...

Hi Naznoor Salam wualecom!

You have recieved some great advice from the others here, i am not too sure I can add anything further BUT TO reassure you that you are not in the wrong.

I am not Muslim, but I dated and was engaged to my high school sweetheart for 4 years, she was from Casablanca. So needless to say I am quite inversed in the mechanics of the Religion. I know you are probably facing a magnifying glass on every one of your moves.

The fear that your YM may grow apart from you is not abnormal at all. I think most gapped relationships always tend to face this fear.
I am currently involved in a relationship where she is 17 years older than me. She is 48 I am 31. We both know that i am on the go, and I am only developing my potential (surd of speak) and that she on the other hand is kind of ünwinding"and or slowing down. Having said all of that, in a relationship there are NEVER guarantees unfortunately. People that are married for 2 years or 20 years may all of the suddent put Oceans apart from one another for various reasons. I SPECIALLY think that "we" as in, we that are involved in gapped relationship tend and or will most likely face several more issues, that a normal age to age relationship may not face. Most of us do great jobs at over passing the hurles however.

I Canada the legal age for a male and or female to engage into a relationship with whomever she or he wants is the age of 19. IF a male and or a female engages into a love affair with a person who is less than 19 than charges can be applied. I am not too sure how the legal age works over in your part of the world, but I am certain that your assessor or advisor psychologist would have no grounds to submit a complaint against you.


Stay strong!!!!!



Attractive31

But suppose that, while you've spent hours and days and months on the phone with your 20 year old man, "traveling with him" (on the phone) while he goes about his daily and other activities, you haven't actually met in person yet. Suppose you really felt that if only the children could get to meet him and get to know him in person they would probably really like him a LOT......

What would you do? Would you break it off with the young man to save any hard feelings of the children and to prevent anyone from reporting to the CPS? Would you keep the relationship, but just keep moving slowly from a distance of over 3,000 miles but risk that the CPS could get a report (even if nothing is illegal)?

At this point, I wouldn't do anything rash either way. I would continue discussions with your therapist if you feel she is qualified for the most part and you are finding her guidance beneficial. I would continue to be honest about your various concerns because that in itself shows that you have your children's best interests at heart, even if you are a bit confused and not completely sure what to do. It shows you are open to evaluating the situation objectively and honestly and open to suggestions and opinions.

Regarding your YM. What I would be most concerned about is that you have never met him in person. I understand that people can become attached via long-distance and on-line, but to make life decisions...I think that must come after all parts of the puzzle have been pieced together...and that would mean several face-to-face meetings and also seeing in-person the life being lead. Observation is quite often worth more than words...especially those coming from the lips of the person himself. I'm not saying you YM is lying or presenting a picture that is false, but you must keep in mind that this is all his interpretation and you must have your interpretation as well, which would mean firsthand, in-person experiences...before the final verdict comes down. I think this is especially important when children are involved.

Also, as I recall from some of your other posts, you have been married twice already and have been a victim in abusive relationships. You need to take that into account when you make evaluations about a man...especially one you have not met...because you would not want to get into a pattern in a third marriage that perhaps for some reason you are unable to see early on. These are things you might want to explore with the therapist as well to come to an intelligent and healthy decision.

Change is inevidable, it is how we deal with those changes that will create either the harmony.......or drama.
Blessings, Tinydancer

No truer words were spoken. And that happens in same age relationships, too.

Shame on your psychologist for inserting her personal opinion so strongly into your session. Your sessions are not about whether or not she approves of your relationship. Your YM is 20 and that is considered "adult" in all 50 states. As a reassuring FYI, my exhusband thought that my being in a relationship with a significantly younger man would increase his likelihood of getting custody of our daughter. My husband was 22 at the time. When he brought it up in court, the judge calmly asked how old my YM was. When my ex said, "I think he's 22," the judge just said, "Okay. He's an adult. Why are you telling me this?" and we moved on. The main reason I'm bringing it up is because I live in an ultraconservative midwestern town and, even here, the judge was very clear that my dating a younger man had no bearing on my parentin competency.

I've had a few long talks with my YM, too.

(Yeah, I'm open and honest - to a fault some say)

One thing I just thought of as I started to type this post was I remember one of our first sessions, with the 3 of us together (kids and I), the therapist assumed I guess (don't know why) that because I was divorced, I'd be dating again and she seemed to want to prepare the kids for this. I had not mentioned at that time anything about any relationships other than my two marriages... and matters related to the reason we were there anyway.

Later I did tell her about some of the proposals I had gotten since being separated and divorced and we had a long talk during one of my individual sessions about the two marriages, etc. She gave me a book to read (yet to finish it, but I've read enough of it to get the jist of it). There is a theory that we get into relationships with people that have the same characteristics of our parents, or others, who were in our childhoods and left us lacking for some reason in one kind of attention or another. The theory is that we "connect" to people based on both the good and bad characteristics that we find familiar in those people who were lacking in their attention to us as children.

I thought about that a lot. In my case, I didn't really have too much to ask for in the way of love and attention from my parents - they were wonderful. I can even remember when I was in high school and college and listening to other kids gripe about theirs all the time and thinking to myself, "wow.. that's sad... I'm so lucky to have such cool parents!"

So when I assessed the characteristics of each of my first two husbands and my YM's characteristics that I was or am attracted to, I came up with clear familiar traits from my parents and others, but they are mostly the good traits. These are things like their high intelligence, but humble natures; the great sense of humor; the ethics of hard work and trying to do the best job one can do; the attitude of or belief in "life is hard, but we can make the best of things" and "things always happen for a reason" or "things always work out best in the end." I especially have been attracted to each of their sense of responsibiltiy for family.

As far as physical characteristics, only my YM resembles in any way someone from my family (and that would be my dad - in fact, from some angles, I think my YM and my son look like they are related). I have always had a preference for the "tall, dark, and handsome", but only two of those apply to my YM - the tall and handsome; my first two husbands were not tall, but one was very dark. I considered my first husband handsome, but not really my second husband. (See.. by the time I married the second time, looks became important to me only if they reflected a beauty from within... which made his outer appearance seem handsome to me even if I wouldn't call him "attractive" by my earlier standards).

There are things that my first two husbands have in common, but I'm not sure yet who in my background had these characteristics (which are the bad ones - like obsessive compulsive tendencies and lieing). Neither of my parents have these tendencies, and I only knew one set of grandparents throughout my life (the other two had passed away long before I was born), and they surely didn't have these charactertistics either. I can't think of anyone in my life that had these characteristics except the two men I married.

The point at which each of the two marriages fell apart was that point where each of them had gone beyond the point of no return, so to speak, with drugs and/or alcohol. I thought by marrying a muslim man the second time around that the drugs and alcohol issue would not be there. Muslims are not supposed to drink or use drugs. Sure, people go against their religious teachings all the time, all around the world, in every religion, and they drink alcohol... even my second husband had tried it when he was in college. The first husband I married at a time when I didn't really understand everything about alcoholism and I assumed like so many that it was the result of something that could be controlled - I didn't know then how to recognize the signs of an alcoholic or addict of anything.

By the time I married my second husband, I was well aware of all that, having had to learn the hard way. And I knew that my second husband was on a prescription medicine that I also had been given a prescription for (but never took). I had been prescribed the anti-depressant not for depression, but for the pain of my fibromyalgia. He had been prescribed it for the purpose of "increasing his concentration". So this was not a red flag to me at the time. As I have mentioned in other posts, my second marriage was really wonderful for a time. But the drug he was put on seemed to create all sorts of bizarre behaviors in him of the obsessive compulsive type and these were the things that really broke up the marriage, especially after he tried to get off the drug, he found he was addicted to, and during the withdrawal phases all of his family convinced him the withdrawal must have been a "depression that grew" while he was on the drug, so he should GO BACK ON IT!

I can clearly identify the problems in both of my previous marriages and they are directly related to the drug and alcohol addictions and the harmful changes that those cause in relationships. My YM doesn't use drugs or alcohol of ANY KIND. He's a muslim and believes using them are wrong, but he's got street smarts, too, and has seen it all around him. He's not been sheltered there in New York where it's so obviously a part of so many lives.

I met and married my first husband within a couple of months' time. I was not that young (25), but I WAS naive. My parents long and happy marriage was after a similarly short courtship time, and my first husband... well.. he was a man of the cloth (or studying to be a Catholic priest) when I met him. I had the ignorant notion in my mind that a cleric must always be a good person, so I was not looking out for "red flags". I don't even know if I was aware of such things to look for back then. I never would have dreamed he could be a violent and abusive man. But that taught me a lesson, of course!

I met the second husband on line and our relationship was as this one is with my YM - that is, I only met him face to face for a short visit of about 5 days once before he married me and moved here. The length of time of our courtship at a long distance (via email or phone) was more than a year, sufficient time, I thought, to get to know everything I could about him. I also interviewed his friends, family, and neighbors who all had such glowing things to say about him. I had asked him a million questions, too, that I tried to verify in any way I could, til I was satisfied that he was who he presented himself to be. And during our engagement period, I fell extremely ill. He stepped up to the plate very honorably and with such a big heart, I thought there is no way I should let him go.

So it didn't matter whether it was a long period of getting to know a person, or getting to know a person there in my "real" daily life first. (I also worked with my first husband before I married him - we met at church first, and then he worked also at the Catholic school where I was teaching.) It doesn't matter if I did a lot of background checking or not either. Of course, I've tried to incorporate all that I have learned from the first two marriage experiences into indentifying "red flags" with the YM I am considering marrying now. He's not a perfect human being (no human is), and there are a couple of things that can be a bit irritating to me, but not on a big scale by a long shot.

I thought about making a list of his good points and bad points - to share with the therapist when she gets back. Maybe she can help me identify where the familiarity lies in the bad points and to see if they are anything to really be concerned about, especially with all the good things going for him.

He told me something interesting today. I knew that most of his friends are all older than he is (and that most of his family is my age or older - sometimes FAR older - he's got a great uncle who is 125 years old and still living). I knew that a couple of his best friends are men who are in their 50's and 60's. He and I were talking this morning about the feeling of "agelessness" that we have between us and he mentioned that his older friends also have said the same thing. He feels like he is the same age as they, and they feel he is the same age as well.

I guess I will just keep taking one day at a time and hoping for the best outcome. Strangely.. although I have been married twice, engaged a few times, and dated a bit before marriage... this is the first relationship in which I don't feel a sense of ..hmm... I guess I could say "desperation". I do have STRONG and DEEP feelings for him, and I want to be together with him, there is attraction on so many levels, but when we're not in contact, while I'm thinking about him all the time, I'm feeling peaceful and calm. It's kind of hard to explain. It DOES feel so right... but under the current circumstances, I guess I have moments of real weakness or some fear about the uncertainty of everything that's happening in my life right now. I don't want to lose him, but I also don't want to be making mistakes that I may be blind to because of my life situation right now. I certainly don't want to be hurting my kids any more than they have already been hurt so much by everyone else.

Oh and.... sorry for the length of this post, but "I didn't have time to write a shorter one!" ;)

Hi Naznoor Salam wualecom!

Stay strong!!!!!



Attractive31

Wa alaikum assalaam :)

thanks! Being here on this web site for support is a blessing!

I met the second husband on line and our relationship was as this one is with my YM - that is, I only met him face to face for a short visit of about 5 days once before he married me and moved here. The length of time of our courtship at a long distance (via email or phone) was more than a year, sufficient time, I thought, to get to know everything I could about him. I also interviewed his friends, family, and neighbors who all had such glowing things to say about him. I had asked him a million questions, too, that I tried to verify in any way I could, til I was satisfied that he was who he presented himself to be. And during our engagement period, I fell extremely ill. He stepped up to the plate very honorably and with such a big heart, I thought there is no way I should let him go.


I thought about making a list of his good points and bad points - to share with the therapist when she gets back. Maybe she can help me identify where the familiarity lies in the bad points and to see if they are anything to really be concerned about, especially with all the good things going for him.

He told me something interesting today. I knew that most of his friends are all older than he is (and that most of his family is my age or older - sometimes FAR older - he's got a great uncle who is 125 years old and still living). I knew that a couple of his best friends are men who are in their 50's and 60's. He and I were talking this morning about the feeling of "agelessness" that we have between us and he mentioned that his older friends also have said the same thing. He feels like he is the same age as they, and they feel he is the same age as well.

Two things...

First, I am not sure if I believe he has an uncle who is 125....if he does, he needs to contact Guiness World Records.... :jaw:

Second, everyone has different comfort levels regarding "knowing" another person, so I am not one to judge you on that point. However, one issue that your therapist may want to discuss is that you invest a lot of yourself into another person without the benefit of having much r/l interaction with them. That level of trust is easily broken....and I was wondering if you ever shared with us what happened with your second husband (I can't remember). When are you and your s/o going to meet? Is there any part of you that is able to wait on making any big decision (whether it be to marry this person OR give up this relationship - which was one of the worries that started this thread....) until you are able to spend some real life time with him? It is likely that neither of you would be investing this much effort in another person unless you had some strong feelings regarding the potential of this relationship. But the obstacles yet to be overcome are what I think should be evaluated with your therapist. To me, it is not the age of your partner, but the investment of time creating an intricate life with another person with whom you have not yet met, kissed, gone grocery shopping with, done laundry for, picked up after, made dinner for etc. And the only concern I would have, that I don't think you have shared, is WHEN you and he will be able to meet and pursue this important experience.

there is no choice when two people truly are meant for eachother. it is what it is and nothing can break that. I never believed that truly existed until I met my husband, there is NOTHING that would break me from him.

Maybe its a time that you come clean with your therapist and put up your own boundries of what is and is not acceptable.

Regarding children being abused. That must take first priority, if this is indeed what happened, love would have to be on the back burner at this point. In fact I am not sure love can truly go on with this in the background this must be dealt with first.

If it is meant to be then distance will not break it, I was away from Adam truly many years and we knew we had to deal with the things at hand but we also promised we would love each other. God blessed us for our love to grow in abundance during these times, I was utterly besotted by him but we both had lives to lead and that had to be done apart until the time was right to be together.

We never missed a step even though life at the time meant for us to be seperated.

Kids first, love can last and endure, but if the kids experienced this then they must come first and all their concerns valid or not must be dealt with or the price to pay will be entirely too dear for the future.

As wemon our success is our children and our family in my opinion. We need to be whole wemon to be able to move on to love.

Two things...

First, I am not sure if I believe he has an uncle who is 125....if he does, he needs to contact Guiness World Records.... :jaw:

Second, everyone has different comfort levels regarding "knowing" another person, so I am not one to judge you on that point. However, one issue that your therapist may want to discuss is that you invest a lot of yourself into another person without the benefit of having much r/l interaction with them. That level of trust is easily broken....and I was wondering if you ever shared with us what happened with your second husband (I can't remember). When are you and your s/o going to meet? Is there any part of you that is able to wait on making any big decision (whether it be to marry this person OR give up this relationship - which was one of the worries that started this thread....) until you are able to spend some real life time with him? It is likely that neither of you would be investing this much effort in another person unless you had some strong feelings regarding the potential of this relationship. But the obstacles yet to be overcome are what I think should be evaluated with your therapist. To me, it is not the age of your partner, but the investment of time creating an intricate life with another person with whom you have not yet met, kissed, gone grocery shopping with, done laundry for, picked up after, made dinner for etc. And the only concern I would have, that I don't think you have shared, is WHEN you and he will be able to meet and pursue this important experience.

LOL.. first... there are a lot of very old people in the world that aren't in the world book of records because it's not a big deal to them or their famlies to be famous over it. It could be a pain in their arses with all the hoopla in a community that just has to face more important things (such as what a person DOES in their 125 years, and not whether they lived that long). To be well known among their community for the life they've led (hopefully a good one) is enough of a notoriety. "Allah sees everything and it's only Allah's judgment that matters." There are quite a lot of such elderly Muslims like this around the world. The man who owns the bakery down the street from me also had an old relative about that old when he passed away, too. So this isn't necessarily any "red flag" for me. I only brought it up here because I think it is a possible reason that he feels there is absolutely no issue about age between him and me. The age gap between him and his great uncle is 105 years. I'm only 27 years older :)

I agree about the comfort levels of knowing a person. I have come to realize over the years that I'm a much more open person about myself than most are. I've always been this way...always. But it has the effect many times, if I come across a similarly open person, of being able to get down to deeper levels of understanding quicker, too. It's caused a lot of people to comment about how they feel like they've known me all their lives. This is how my YM and I feel about each other - that we've known each other a lot longer than we have.

One thing that will set me apart from most of the rest of you is that I have religious beliefs that I wish to adhere to, and that I regret from my former relationships not adhering to. That is, my YM and I do believe that it's a good and right thing for us to wait until we are married before we have sexual relations. However, we have discussed a great many things of a sexual nature, in great detail. I am satisfied, with the knowledge/experience I have from past relationships, that my YM and I will likely be a fantastic match in this regard. And while I absolutely recognize the importance of a good sex life in a marriage, I also am mature enough to realize that anything could happen to either one of us that could (God forbid) render us completely unable to have sexual relations at all. If that happens, so be it. We feel like we love each other enough that we could get past that and still have a loving and long marriage. This is a constant theme for us as Muslims.... great and wonderful things we have can be taken away in an instant, so we just try to appreciate all the blessings that we do have at any particular moment (stopping to pray 5 times a day kind of helps with this... as we tend to keep that kind of perspective more easily and are then less devastated with disappointments in our lives than we might otherwise be if we were distracted by something else).

One thing that he mentions to me quite frequently is how his favorite food is WHATEVER I COOK! That's the right attitude for me. That's how I was raised, and that's practically speaking, the best in our situation (we are not people of means, either one of us - at least not now). He knows what it means to really struggle. My first two husbands said they did, and everyone does struggle and everyone does have their own reference points for measuring pain in their lives. But when you have to leave your country to save your life from genocide, and you leave everything you have behind, and you live on your own as a teenager and young adult, and you have to eat junk food, or the burnt food you can't seem to get quite right, I think you really do understand at an important level what a blessing it is to have someone cook for you, no matter what it tastes like. I know some of this myself.

I also know he doesn't snore - that's important for me. That may sound really .. I don't know... crazy... to not want to marry someone because they snore. But, actually, that's been a major problem in one of my marriages, and it caused me to have great difficulties with my own health because of lack of sleep. It was made even worse because the husband didn't ever care to try and do anything to change that situation. Anyway, I have "slept" with my YM several times already as we've talked so long into the night sometimes that he or I have fallen asleep while on the phone... .and he sleeps very quietly :) I know what position he likes to sleep in also and it would be perfect next to the way I sleep.

Epon.. this is the reply to your question about what happened with husband #2 (the one that I met on the internet and became engaged to after only having met face to face first for 5 days). The face to face meeting was after a long distance internet and phone relationship for about 5 months.

Part II:

What happened with husband #2, as I sort of alluded to above, is that the prescription drug he takes altered his body and mind so drastically that it caused many situations of harm and damage in my life and that of my children. It's hard to explain all of that without telling you all about the research I did and all the various things that turn out to be common side effects of that drug. I have reems of paper that are printouts of medical research and other users' testimonials, FDA reports, investigation and legal findings regarding the manufacturer's false reporting of testing results, doctors' findings, etc.

The drug was given to him when he was in college, before we met and married. It was given to him because he was complaining of pain in his arms and concentration problems in just two of the classes he was taking. It was diagnosed that he was "depressed" (even though when I researched through is family and such I saw signs of his having a learning disability and not any kind of a clinical depression whatsoever - also, people in his family also have fibromyalgia, same as me, so that could have explained the pain). The drug never helped his concentration - it made it worse, the worst ever. It also over time made him actually very depressed when he had not been before he went on the drug. (And that is a common finding of tens of thousands of people who were put on it for one reason or other without any diagnosis of depression first).

There were times when he did go off of it, so I could compare his behavior on and off the drug.. it was clear that the drug was causing most of the detrimental effects. The effects are cumulative. There is damage to the brain and nervous system, especially, when the drug is used over a long period of time. Especially, for some reason, around the 10 year usage mark, the brain starts to atrophy. This is what I believe was happening to him, and it became impossible to live with him and all the side effects (which were largely displayed in bizarre obsessive compulsive behaviors that were very destructive to all types of relationships). Therefore, if one is using this sort of drug more than the recommended 2 years (he's been on it for something like 15 or so years now and usually at the highest dose), after the 10 year mark, that's when you start to really see the effects of the damage in a dramatic way. That 10 year mark for him was at about our 3rd or 4th year of marriage.

He realized all of this, and he tried to get off of the drug a couple of times. Unfortunately, either because of the drug or just his own personality habits (I think a combination of the two), he was unable to think for himself, plus his family had such a strong influence over him that he was easily pushed by them... directed by them (they didn't even have to push really) to go back ON the drug every time, so he would just keep getting into the same circle of destruction. Being an SSRI anti-depressant, while it was clear to everyone around him that he was miserable and confused and unable to process thoughts, or do much of anything on his own, etc., in his own mind, when he would go back on the drug, he was oblivious to the reality and just always thought everything was hunkey dorey.

When he left me, it was at the urging of his family and he had been going through the worst of the withdrawal of once again trying to get off of the drug. Once again, they put him right back on it, when if they could have waited it out probably one more week, we believe he would have gotten over the worst of the withdrawal symptoms. So.... back he went into the oblivion, and they requested that he come back home to live with them. The plan was initially that he would get off the drug, we would separate and he would live on his own for a while to see if he could gain that independence and self-sufficiency, then decide if continuing the marriage was what he wanted or not.

But his family flew him home to Kansas from California on the first day of our separation, and got him back on the anti-depressant right away. They are also all on the same anti-depressants, and they also were never quite able to separate from him when he married and left home. (They would talk on the phone with each other usually 2 to 3 hours every single day). He had never lived on his own before he married me, and he was 31 when he married me.

He showed up here the other day. He'd been out here for a job interview because he's not been able to find any work at all in Kansas or Texas where he was living with his sister and brother in law for the past months. No good luck on the interview out here either. But he came to pick up his tax forms that had been mailed here and I hadn't forwarded yet. He'd been in the area for a few days when he called me. Then he was going to be on his way back to Kansas later in that day. We talked a little bit. It was obvious to me that while he was talking about all the stress and problems and struggles... he was still oblivious to his own misery. In that artificial happy face the drug puts on him, he said he's "BETTER! :D" Not that I could tell... everything he was telling me was as if nothing at all has changed in the least.

Now his parents want to get him married again. I think that this may have been an intention they have had for several years already.. .since the first time that I tried to help him get off of the drug. They never understood that the side effects of the withdrawal are common and I think they felt I was the one putting him into his misery by trying to help him get off the drug. Ironically, I didn't know about any of this really until he went off of it by himself, cold turkey, once and I got to researching to try and understand what was happening. They never did any research and never wanted to listen to anything that I found out from my research. I think they just thought I was the one harming him and not the other way around. So I believe that they really directed him to thinking that the best thing would be to leave me and come home to them.

Anyway..that's what happened with #2. Before the 10 year mark of his drug use, things were really wonderful.

Nazoor,
I think that you are probably a very kind woman with a lot to offer anyone lucky enough to snag you:)
This is just my impression from reading your posts that are forming my opinion on this subject.
I think that, b/c of all that you have been through, you are looking for something outside yourself to fill that hole.
I really believe that, in this case, your children and you need to bond and heal with each other, heal yourself, befor entering into any relationship..........especially one that is so very complicated due to so many circumstances.
It seems to me that they, your family, have and are taking a back seat to your needs.
I, too, am sometimes accused of this b/c, in my case, I teach during crucial "family time" hours, commute far, and work in a very consuming field...I am looking into changing this for the first time in my life.why? b/c my daughter said to me a few months ago "Mom, I love you but, you don't really know me"....ACK!!!!!!!!!!! She is right. Most everything I do is for her but she is right and I need to try and fix this or she will have a whole in her heart and not feel as important as she is and should feel. I love her so much that maybe I have been afraid of screwing up to the point of screwing her up!
I am not Muslim but have and still do study religions..I am quite addicted to it really. I have been this way all of my life and am fascinated by each faith and have tried living in others shoes for as long as I can remember. Next stop......Bhutan:D :D :D
This is the topmost reason, imo, there are religions in the first place and that is to......feel comfort and have something to believe in and lean on when times are scary, lonely, etc....no matter what your religion is or how it is applied that is the one thing that seems to be universal. Turn to your faith Nazoor and look inward.
Bright Blessings, Tinydancer

And my YM has said as much himself. He puts the kids first in this dilemma. There is a saying of the Prophet Muhammad that we muslims remind each other of all the time: "Paradise is at the feet of the mothers." This is the idea that paradise for the CHILDREN is dependent upon how well they are raised and treated and taught by the mother who, figuratively, but used to literally, teach her children who sat at her feet to learn.

We also believe that the outcome of this is whatever God wills. We HOPE it's what we want also and we will continue to move forward working through issues, and getting to know each other, etc., but we believe it's whatever God wills, and nothing that anyone can say or do will change what God ultimately wills to happen. Our lives, we believe, were written for us, pre-ordained, before we were even born. So we have to just wait and see.

We want badly to be together, but it is obvious that unless some grand miracle occurs, we're going to be apart for quite a while yet. Maybe 2 years, even if we manage to be able to visit each other face to face. In the meantime, he's taking steps right now to start his own business. He's actually going to check on a place today to see what the landlord is asking in the way of rent. He helped another friend (older than him) a couple of years ago start a similar business, and he thinks he can do the same for himself now. His plan is to be able to get it going well enough that he'll be able to afford plane tickets for visiting. He's actually got a pretty good plan worked out and some other future considerations.

My hesitancy with investing time and energy in this is based on my age. I feel like I have already wasted so much of my life and my kids have had such a sad time as well. I want all of us to have some happiness. Well.. I think sometimes the past has been a waste, and sometimes I think it was a blessed learning time in my life. I really shouldn't complain about two marriages that did not last. They were successful in many ways, and I certainly learned a lot from both of the experiences.

I guess just sometimes I think... I'm 46... and just getting older. My YM knows and accepts my physical limitations (the weakness, pain, fatigue and all that affects in life when you have fibromyalgia). I want to have a life with him before I get any worse (heck, it could even IMPROVE my health to be living with him), and as a person with physical limitations, I really do need a person to help out in many ways. A loving husband would be great. We'd be equal, but we'd share the full load that I am bearing all alone now. I don't feel like I have the luxury that most of you do to just live alone for as long as it would take before we could be together. On the other hand, like I've already said... the Lord giveth and the Lord can taketh away in any instant. I could have him here tomorrow, we could be blissfully happy, and then something could happen to him, too, so that he needed me to provide for him and not the other way around.

Ideally, and in accordance with our religious and personal beliefs, he'd be the bread winner and I would stay at home and not have to worry about providing anymore. I would get to FINALLY give my kids and a husband the full attention as a mom and wife, not just in quality, but in quantity, too. I would so much love to give the kids that especially in their last two years of childhood after all that they have been through.

It's a dilemma. By being with the YM ... NOW... I see so many possible advantages and some possible disadvantages where the kids are concerned. By waiting a longer time, I also see advantages and disadvantages. I know all relationships, even the best planned or investigated, or the longest in terms of engagement, are no guarantee for happiness or longevity. It is what you put in to it once your'e in it - contribution from all sides - that makes the difference.

But after all this posting... and seeing my thoughts (and all of y'all's) in writing, I do feel better that there is no need to worry about whether the therapist would regard this relationship as a "danger" to the kids.

Thanks for letting me vent and think out loud! Most days I'm strong and confident and patient... and very happy. Just some days, like the day I began this thread, I can be hypersensitive and worry too much.

This is another example of why I perceive even bad things in my life to be blessings in the long run. When I became ill in 2000 with this fibromyalgia, I was COMPLETELY disabled. I had been working literally night and day before I got so sick. I had been through all this trauma with the first husband (severe abuses of all kinds that continued even after I divorced him). I would get the kids to the daycare at 7 am, then get to work by 8 am, then work until 6 pm, no breaks, battle the rush hour traffic to try and get the kids picked up by 7 pm (usually got held up in the traffic anyway and had to pay LARGE sums of money for late pick up fees at the daycare), then get home, fix supper, and ... by the time I had supper on the table, the kids were asleep on the couch. I'd have to wake them up, and usually, we'd all fall asleep again together just after we ate. I'd get up again at about 10 pm and work until about 3 or 4 am, then sleep for 2 hours, and get up and do it again. I was also working on the weekends and holidays (I'd bring the kids with me to the office on the weekends and holidays).

My kids were always pleading with me to be a mom "like the other kids had". They wanted me to be able to pick them up earlier, or better yet, they didn't want to have to be in daycare AT ALL. None of the daycares were as good as I could have done for them myself if I had been able to afford to stay at home and raise them myself.

When I finally got so sick and disabled, it was after I was engaged, and at the beginning of my new marriage to the second husband. Because I was ordered home from work (and then my employment illegally terminated while I was on the disability leave), I had all this time to be at home. My physical limitations were great back then. At first, I could not even lift my head from my pillow. Then I was slowly able to lift myself out of bed. Next was striving to be able to stand for longer than 5 minutes, and sit upright for more than 20 minutes. Obviously, housework had to go on the back burner. My husband was very supportive and loving and he helped me with my physical therapy. I remember the first time I was able to make it down the stairs again - this was several months after my initially falling so ill - and he walked me down to the end of the block, but basically had to carry me back again. I couldn't walk that distance yet. Later, I did my own research and discovered things that would help me regain my health somewhat, better than what seems to be the case with people who get what is a limited treatment from doctors. But because my husband was working and providing, and I was not 100% healthy, I did continue to stay at home. (I started a business making and selling the products that I had developed for myself that had brought me back to my better health).

Anyway... the physical limitations had no effect on my ability to pay attention to people and give a LOT of TLC during that time! I have always really seen this "disability" as a blessing in disguise because then I was able to spend so much quality and quantity time with the kids and my husband.

My kids have always been very independent though. This is a natural and common trait of twins anyway, but when they were babies and small children, I was basically either essentially on my own, or truly on my own, having to take care of them. With just two hands to spare, the twins naturally developed an independence to some extent. However, due to a lot of other circumstances - too complicated to explain here - the kids continued on their path of independence even after I was finally able to be at home for them all day and night, and really they weren't all that interested by that time in spending time with me. We have had many QUALITY times together though. My kids and I have always had an extremely close and good relationship, through everything.

The abuses they have suffered were out of my control, and believe me, whenever I was aware of them, I was like a lioness with her cubs. I did so much to try and protect them and help them heal and grow from the experiences if I could not prevent them from happening in the first place.

Unfortunately, sometimes there are criminals in the world who are so masterful at hiding their crimes, I did not detect the source of some of the abuse, or more specifically, suspected it coming from an expected source, and not such an unexpected one as it turned out to be. Though I knew that something was happening, and I tried to discover it, I was not successful. Eventually, the criminal slipped up, and was caught.. by police. His bail was set at $1million dollars, and he was just sentenced this past week to 20 years in prison for his abuse and crimes.

We've been getting therapy for this trauma since last year and... my YM came on to the scene after 6 months into our therapy and healing process. So far, the therapist has remarked that she's constantly impressed with our progress and strength and ability to get up and move forward. There's been no backward sliding since he came into the picture, and I would say that we have all continued to progress, and maybe even more so since he came on the scene. So I don't see him as a negative aspect in this scenario, but a good one, albeit indirectly at this point.

I still have plenty of time to spend with the kids because though I've been job hunting for the past few years, and really seriously for the past 18 months or so, I'm still unemployed except for a few freelance editing projects that have come my way. Again... it's a stressful struggle financially (and physically for me), but this time alone.. without anyone here except me and the two kids for much of the past 2 years (husband #2 was married, officially living here, but in reality, was gone for about 4 or 5 months straight before he came back and then suddenly left me)...all this time has been a blessing and a time of healing and lots and lots of love.

In fact... thanks to my YM.. .I've avoided some job or work scams that I might otherwise have been taken advantage of due to my feeling of desperation to find work. He's helped me to stay calm and not feel so desperate. I can say to myself all the time "God will provide.. God will provide"... but when you hear someone else saying it to you, or at least to me, maybe it affects me more. I don't know.. I think this is an example of "what friends are for", and what a good husband would do, also.

I should relabel this thread "Can't sleep? Read this!"

Then all you who can't get to sleep will surely fall asleep trying to read through all this!

SORRY!!

Naznoor, unless your relationship with your ym is related to the reason your family is seeing a counsellor, I don't understand why his age is relevant. I consider your counsellor's judgemental attitude to be unprofessional. My ex-ym and I had one joint session with a couples counsellor after our brief reconciliation, and the counsellor made no judgemental comments about our age gap. I also sought individual counselling with a different counsellor, who also did not make any judgemental comments about the age difference in the relationship, but concentrated on helping me clarify what I wanted/needed from a relationship, and then helped me work on strategies for moving forward with my life, etc.

From reading your first post, I get the impression that your children feel very comfortable with this individual, while it is obvious that you don't. Unfortunately, since it seems you and your children are in counselling due to an extremely serious issue, you are between the proverbial rock and hard place. I'm at a loss as to what to suggest, other than trying to find a new counsellor both you and your children feel comfortable with. I wish you well.

No, my YM has nothing to do with why we're in counseling and for me, he's been just as good or better a sounding board at times than the counselor (although I think she is really good for the most part).

Actually, my kids are not comfortable with him, but not because of him.. just because they don't wish for me to be married again. I AM comfortable with him. Or.. I was feeling great about it until the counselor seemed to be wanting to make me feel bad about it.

I shouldn't worry, I guess, about what she could say or do... he IS of legal age.

The time I spent alone after my divorce was one of the hardiest times I ever experienced, I grew dramatically from the experience.

I set up boundaries that were worn down years ago, I regained self respect, It became impossible for me to have casual encounters with men, I had male friends but for some reason I stayed alone a very long time. I never have had a one night stand or anything like that but I do think I was too fast to take relationships to a physical level before truly knowing the person.

So being alone after abusive relationships can be a very healthy thing.

After what you have been through it would be impossible to heal immediately, healing takes time.

Godbless. Kitty.

Naznoor, first of all I want to say what a wonderful addition you are to Ageless. Your outer beauty is matched by your tremendous inner beauty.

When you first posted this thread, I immediately wrote an elegant reply, :p but then hit some magic button that ERASED the WHOLE POST! I was so frustrated that I could not post until today.

I was going to a therapist when my YM and I met 25 years ago. He was 20 and I was 34. My therapist had been a minister in the past, but changed careers and became a licensed therapist. Not only did he never judge me, but he married my YM and I! It was wonderful.

IF I WERE YOU, I would downplay your intentions and feelings about your YM, with your therapist and your children. At least until he is over here and you two are together. If you have confidence in the therapist otherwise, just work on the issues that brought you to her.

If you think your twins have said negative things about your YM, do you know what they are? I had some issues with my young daughter when Jerry and I married.

She was 13 at the time and it continued to this day even. But back then the issue was she always saw Mom as a Mom. When Jerry came into my life, my countenance lite up, for the first time ever.

As she was becoming a young sexual woman, it seemed wrong that Mom was sexual as well. If I had it to do over, I would not have been so giddy about my new love in front of her. The fact that he was closer to her age than mine also made it seem Mom was nuts.

So when I assessed the characteristics of each of my first two husbands and my YM's characteristics that I was or am attracted to, I came up with clear familiar traits from my parents and others, but they are mostly the good traits. Here is where you have to be more realistic. You do not yet have the YM's FULL personality, and character defects, to compare him with your EX's. You are comparing apples and oranges because, you lived with your EX's but not yet with your YM.

I would not be putting all my apples in one basket and planning your life and your kids lives, until you have dated him in person for a year. Is he planning on coming here to live and work?

I am so sorry about what you are going through with the abuse. I have been there with my children and more recently my grandchild also. It is a tremendous traumatic experience for the whole family.

Feel free to PM me if you ever need to talk about it. HUGS and more HUGS.

I also know he doesn't snore - that's important for me. That may sound really .. I don't know... crazy... to not want to marry someone because they snore. But, actually, that's been a major problem in one of my marriages, and it caused me to have great difficulties with my own health because of lack of sleep. It was made even worse because the husband didn't ever care to try and do anything to change that situation. Anyway, I have "slept" with my YM several times already as we've talked so long into the night sometimes that he or I have fallen asleep while on the phone... .and he sleeps very quietly :) I know what position he likes to sleep in also and it would be perfect next to the way I sleep.

LOL...nope, it doesnt sound crazy to me at all, I was married to a hardcore snorer (sp? lol) for 17 yrs. I know of the agony you speak, it is VERY difficult to live your life and be happy and well balanced when you arent getting a decent nights sleep, not once in awhile, but EVERY night. The ex husband and I ended up fixing the problem by having seperate bedrooms for 12 of our 17 yrs together...I slept well...but it sucked not sleeping together, although it didnt really hurt our sex life much.

I was, like you, SO excited to learn that my YM not only didnt snore but slept quite peacefully and calmly. It was heavenly to be able to snuggle up to him and not be woke up every 5 minutes by the roar of the snoring.
That was 4 years ago, he was 21....he's 25 now, and guess what? he snores. :banghead:

Its not as bad as my exhb and I can sleep through it most of the time...but ahhhh :eek: it can be frustrating. The 3 yrs that were snore-free were blissful though, I will say. I hope this same thing doesnt happen to your YM!! :D

The time I spent alone after my divorce was one of the hardiest times I ever experienced, I grew dramatically from the experience.

I set up boundaries that were worn down years ago, I regained self respect, It became impossible for me to have casual encounters with men, I had male friends but for some reason I stayed alone a very long time. I never have had a one night stand or anything like that but I do think I was too fast to take relationships to a physical level before truly knowing the person.

So being alone after abusive relationships can be a very healthy thing.

After what you have been through it would be impossible to heal immediately, healing takes time.

Godbless. Kitty.

I quoted Kittylane's advice because I agree completely with what she said. When we are going through significantly difficult times where it feels as if there is no support, we often turn to people who make us feel, if even for a short time, better about our lives and ourselves. The danger with this is that, in concentrating and focusing on that person, we're avoiding dealing with reality.

Like attracts like. I've learned this. Your previous marriages involved addicts, of one type or another. When I started realizing the patterns in my own life, I noticed my tendency to attract and be attracted to addicts as well. Initially I thought it was because there is addiction in my family of origin, and while that's very possible, I also had to come face to face with the fact that I had an addiction of sorts as well, and that was, to lose myself in a relationship so I wouldn't have to see the shambles my own life had become.

Being Muslim doesn't preclude the absense of addiction. The personality type can still be very firmly in place even if the person doesn't drink or do drugs. In AA lingo it's called being a "dry drunk", and at times can be even more damaging because the person doesn't have anything to drown themselves in, to focus on other than the other people around them. But that's not why I'm writing, I just wanted to point out that even if your YM is Muslim, you should never think he's outside of the possibility of addiction; he's still human, and any ism is a human condition, not a Christian one.

I, too was enmeshed in a horrible situation concerning the abuse of one of my children. I, too, was interested at the time in someone who lived away from me. I, too, was barely hanging on by the skin of my teeth, reeling with the guilt (and there IS guilt, even if you are completely blameless in the situation, you're still a parent, and they're still your child), as well as the task of helping the child heal. I was lucky though, because the man I was interested in saw what I was doing and questioned me on it. I became defensive and upset, and he slowed his communication. This sent me in an absolute tailspin. Not only was I forced to deal with all of this upheaval alone, but the ONE thing that I thought had been keeping me sane through out was suddenly not accessible.

He had become my drug. I had been using him to make myself feel better, using our connection to detach from what had been going on in my own life. I was forced to look at my life, to focus on my kids, to clean up my own mess. And so I did.

I still care for this person, and I realize now that he did what I wouldn't have been capable of at the time. I am eternally grateful to him for this. He saw what I really needed, and gave it to me: my own autonomy. When we've been alone for a while we long for what we've never really had: a loving relationship with a loving man. We'll sometimes grasp at anything that resembles that, become consumed by it.

Please don't do what I did. Please don't use your young man to escape. Perhaps this is what your children see...you're focusing on him because it's one of the few things in your life that feels good. But this is a healing. And healing, by its very nature, can be painful. If the person in my life hadn't have stepped back, I still would have done what I needed to do...but I also needed to be shown that I was addicted to him, that not speaking to him was really like a withdrawal. But after, I became as focused on healing my family as I had been on him, and it was much, much better.

Perhaps because I've gone through this, I see it in your situation. I could be wrong. I do know, however, that when it feels like the weight of the world is on us, it can be extremely tempting to look to someone for support and to make that support absolutely everything. He may be in your life in the future, but in all honesty, he is not right now. Your children are. Heal yourself, help them heal, and then concentrate on your young man. Then you'll know without a doubt, you did it the right way, and you'll be open to any blessings the world can give you.

Naznoor, first of all I want to say what a wonderful addition you are to Ageless. Your outer beauty is matched by your tremendous inner beauty.

When you first posted this thread, I immediately wrote an elegant reply, :p but then hit some magic button that ERASED the WHOLE POST! I was so frustrated that I could not post until today.

I was going to a therapist when my YM and I met 25 years ago. He was 20 and I was 34. My therapist had been a minister in the past, but changed careers and became a licensed therapist. Not only did he never judge me, but he married my YM and I! It was wonderful.

IF I WERE YOU, I would downplay your intentions and feelings about your YM, with your therapist and your children. At least until he is over here and you two are together. If you have confidence in the therapist otherwise, just work on the issues that brought you to her.

If you think your twins have said negative things about your YM, do you know what they are? I had some issues with my young daughter when Jerry and I married.

She was 13 at the time and it continued to this day even. But back then the issue was she always saw Mom as a Mom. When Jerry came into my life, my countenance lite up, for the first time ever.

As she was becoming a young sexual woman, it seemed wrong that Mom was sexual as well. If I had it to do over, I would not have been so giddy about my new love in front of her. The fact that he was closer to her age than mine also made it seem Mom was nuts.

Here is where you have to be more realistic. You do not yet have the YM's FULL personality, and character defects, to compare him with your EX's. You are comparing apples and oranges because, you lived with your EX's but not yet with your YM.

I would not be putting all my apples in one basket and planning your life and your kids lives, until you have dated him in person for a year. Is he planning on coming here to live and work?

I am so sorry about what you are going through with the abuse. I have been there with my children and more recently my grandchild also. It is a tremendous traumatic experience for the whole family.

Feel free to PM me if you ever need to talk about it. HUGS and more HUGS.

Hi, YR - thanks for all the kind words.

Young Man IS here (in the states anyway, just not the same state). He's been here for 5 years and in that time has been living pretty much on his own (lived with cousins the first couple years, then on his own in his own apartment after that). His parents are in Detroit. He's got one brother that is still in Syria who has gotten his immigration status approved, but still waiting for entry approval or something. (They are originally from a corner of Iran that was an independent country until Iran took it by force.)

We haven't been dating together in person (and that won't happen since we are muslims), but we have been on the phone with each other quite an enormous amount of time. Sometimes those phone calls are private. Sometimes they are on speaker phone and all of us are interacting - kids, too.

Also, there's web cam.... some emails... some messenger chat. Mostly it's all phone calls though.

True, I can't compare life with him with life with the ex husband's. I was comparing characteristics or traits that I was ATTRACTED to with each of them. This is what the relationship book is about that I was given - i.e., what ATTRACTS us to others. The theory is that we are attracted to good and bad traits, but of course, being a book that psychologists may use in their counseling, it's probably focused on the BAD traits we're attracted to. And so I was saying that that the things I know I was attracted to in all 3 men were actually more of the good traits of my parents, grandparents, and others in my childhood and life.

As for all the abuse.. that's also in the past. The really horrible physical and other abuses.. the real nightmares... those were in my first marriage beginning about 21 years ago. That marriage ended about 12 years ago, and I was divorced and single for 6 years after that before I remarried. The second marriage had abuses, but they were no way as severe or as frequent as in the first marriage. But the similarities of the two marriages is that they both went crazy after being addicted to drugs and alcohol. The first husband used illicit drugs. But the second husband was prescription drug use that was encouraged by both our family doctor (who knew nothing about that drug and did not monitor him) and his family members. The second marriage falling apart was more to do with bizarre obsessive compulsive behaviors caused by this drug, and the husband's inability to cope with all that, so he fled. For all practical purposes, he has been gone and out of our lives since July of 2005.

The abuse that involves the court and counseling NOW... has to do with abuse from a different family member altogether who perpetrated crimes in secret for the past 5 years until he was caught by police last year. But this sort of a crime came as a shock, and it devastated the entire extended family. This is what we have been going to counseling for since last year.

The Young Man I'm getting to know now has been in our life since last year, too, but he arrived on the scene some 6 months after we started our family's therapy sessions. Our financial situations are similar right now. We're both doing work, but so far only able to secure sort of odd jobs. It doesn't seem to matter what our educational or degree levels are, he's having more luck than I am in finding regular work. In fact, while I am struggling to get past the recruiter's offices into an actual interview with someone that is in a position to make a hiring decision, he's constantly being asked by business people that he knows to come and work for them (he's really great with sales and customer service.. I have listened to him interacting with customers so often, so I'm not surprised that all these guys want them to work for them.

The trouble is that neither of us are making enough money to be able to afford plane tickets for visiting each other. And when we do have the money, something always comes up as an emergency that we use that money for instead. I suppose I could come up with the money if I got rid of my internet and cell phone, but I don't want to do that because I use both of those also for my job hunting and the few projects that I do get and work on from home.

I'll tell you what the kids don't like about my YM now. It's 1) any person that wants to marry me is a sadness to them. I have assured them that I will not abandon them or love them any less, but this is somehow a fear they have. 2) His accent scares them. Surprisingly, it's not a foreign accent as one from another country, but a foreign dialect to them - it's a New York accent! The guy has an amazing talent for picking up languages and being able to speak them fluently. He's like a parrot. So he's got the tough-guy sounding kind of dialect you hear from certain places in New York. The kids have told me it makes them think about kids at school that they don't like (or don't like them). So the fear is based on their past experiences, and not really what they know about my young man. That's why I said I think they will like him better after he does come out here and they get to know him better.

Right now, I'm glad for the distance and the poverty conditions... it's creating a necessary time to continue to get to know him (and he get to know me). At this SPECIFIC time in my kids' and my life, it's also a blessing because the criminal who committed crimes was just finally sentenced and it has brought back a tsunami of emotions all over again and it's good that we're alone with each other to deal with them. Also, my daughter just had a major heartbreak over someone that she was friends with for the past 5 years, so we're all starting over in life right now.

At other times, the kids have been fine with this relationship, and even tease him, joke around with the young man, and have told me in private that they want me to be happy and dont' want to sabotage anything between us.

Hi Celtish,

Thanks for all your insight, too. I have a lifelong dream of being able to write a lot of thought into just a few words. (I have a friend who can do that! it's amazing!) When I write all these long posts, I know that some facts get lost to the reader, unfortunately. There is a lot to say though - a lot about the situation that makes big differences.

Yes, I am well aware that addicts come from all over the world and all religions and none. During my first marriage, I went to couples counseling and I also went to Al Anon meetings for a while. When I converted to Islam, I did at that time have a naive notion about Muslims being all good, but that was quickly removed. I remember once trying to find an AA meeting for a muslim friend of mine in Pakistan, and was surprised to find that there are AA meetings all over the world, in muslim countries, too, even where the sale of alcohol is illegal.

It's the obsessive/compulsive personality, I think, that can make a person more susceptible to becoming addicted to something. And I am well aware that someone can be this way whether or not they have ever popped a pill or smoked a joint or taken a swig of booze.

I'm taking all your words into consideration and I'm going to think about whether I'm addicted to something or not. I don't see it, but I don't automatically discount the possibility. My YM does make me happy, but it's got a lot to do with.. hmm.. well a lot of things. The first thing that just popped into my head though was the support in parenting. It's hard to be a single parent. I should know.. I've essentially been a single parent for 15 years now.

As to my own upbringing, and personal beliefs and desires, my spritual and religious beliefs... all of this converges (from different angles, different religious teachings, muslim, christian, and Jewish mainly), in the strong convictiion that a family really should be comprised of a mother, a father (or mother/father figures) and the children. Also, it's important to me to have extended family in the mix - in contact and interacting, if possible (and if not dangerous to the family well being). If I say I believe that a short term engagement can lead to a long term happy marriage, one without pre-marital sex involved... this is based on examples in my extended family and others I know from all of these different religious backgrounds. I myself regret having not been a virgin when I married first time.

Also, it's my personal belief that (especially in my own family situation where I am stuck 3,000 miles away from any extended family, without a geographically close network of friends, and with a physical health limitations), it's best if there is a man to provide, while the wife focuses on the home, raising the children, and "making the house a home".

So I guess you could say I'm addicted to the idea of being a homemaker (like all the other women in my very large extended family). I've been working at some thing or another since I was 8 years old. I got to be a happy homemaker for 3 good years of my children's lives. I can say, comparing the two ways of living, I'd RATHER be a homemaker than a career woman who works outside the home. I can be a career woman. I've done it very successfully. But that's just not my cup of tea.. it really isn't. So yeah.. I'm addicted to that lifestyle, and I am always hoping for it. If there is a man who will marry me and provide for that kind of a lifestyle, I will find an initial interest in him. But on the other hand, I will not jump into it with blinders on either. I AM looking for red flags. Of course, I realize not everyone is perfect, and you can't find everything you ever wanted in one person. But honestly.. the chips are stacking in favor of the young man so far.

So this life long dream of mine is not at all what I have gotten in life, however, that doesn't mean I can't still want it. It also doesn't mean that it's unatainable. And it doesn't mean it's an unhealthy desire.

Yes, I feel some guilt about what happened to my child. But that is fleeting. Obviously, there is not a lot I can say here in this forum, but believe me... I did an outstanding job of fighting for and protecting my children the past 15 years. Unfortunately, the criminal was more clever... until he slipped up and got caught. I don't blame myself for what happened, but I am very very sad that the opportunity was there basically because I have always had to be focused for a good portion of my time on work outside the home. (Or even if inside the home, but I mean ... work to provide income.)

Incidentally, this is something that endears me to my young man now. Unlike the other two husbands who had no problem with my financially supporting the marriage, my young man will NOT come here until HE can be the one to provide for us, or at least be an equal contributor. He will not put me in the position of having to be the provider anymore. And he won't take a thing from me.

Just want to make this clear separately from the long posts above...

My two marriages did involve addicted persons. However, they were very different:

The first marriage involved the addictions in a man who chose to do illicit drugs, drink alcohol... he became addicted. He also had the signs of an addictive personality, but I was not knowledgable at the time I married him about all that. I had to learn that during the marriage. He also was raised by an alcoholic mother (clean and sober now, but she only became so about 2 years before we were married at the age of 25).

By the time I was considering marrying the second guy (a muslim), I was myself a converted muslim already for 4 years, and I had already learned that muslims can have just as many problems as anyone else, so I was looking for these addictive personality traits in him. I did not find them. As I said, the first 3 or 4 years were wonderful with him. I really have no complaints about that. But the drug he used was a prescription drug. I called it an addiction, and the manufacturer of this drug does call it "withdrawal" symptoms when you go off it, but they refuse to call it an addictive drug. Those who have tried to get off of it can tell you it's like trying to get off of heroine or cocaine. Few people have successfully stopped using it without the withdrawal symptoms (and some have committed suicides, homicides, etc. as well). And tens of thousands have described how it was not until AFTER they were prescribed the drug that they exhibited obsessive/compulsive behaviors.

I myself saw a completely different person when husband #2 was not on the SSRI drug. He tried to get off of it 3 times during the time he was with me. So I don't think he's the same addictive personality that the first husband was. I could be wrong, but from the research I did, husband #2 seemed to be a completely different person off the drug than on it. And unfortunately, when these issues were brought up to doctors, they ignored them. In fact, the doctors didn't even have face to face examinations in the 15 years he was on the drug (to date). All they did was authorize phone-in prescription renewals.

After reading this thread and many of your other posts Noor...I really believe you are very aware of the risks involved with a LDR with a YM and very aware of your children and their needs. You seem to me to be checking and re-checking and leaving no stone unturned where this is concerned and not at all just jumping in blindly. So, my only words are those of encouragement to continue to do as you are doing. Keep getting to know him the best you can, and build this relationship to the level you both need it to be in order to get to your final destination..ie being together, marriage, what have you, while still making your children and thier needs your top priority.

I wish you only the best :)

and about that NY accent, lol...I can totally relate as I was born and raised a NY'er and have that very same accent. I have lived away for almost 20 years, but I still have it and people are taken aback by it all the time.

Adam was the same way, he was insistant on being the bread winner. Well in the real world even men with decorated military history and great personalities have trouble finding work, my husband has.

He is currently working as a an armed security guard 56 hours a week, the pay is disgusting but he feels he needs to do this while applying to the various law enforcement agencies, even after he is hired the salary here is 47-48,000 a year. Hardly what a family can live off of.

He can work himself up the ladder which is what he will do, Adam is one in a million and it wont take long for him to be noticed, I would not give up this time while he is getting settled though, I still feel like I am the luckiest woman in the world and God blessed me more than I ever deserved with my husband.

But in reality the money he felt he would make and the money is making is not where he wants to be, for him though I would do anything and I know one day he will live up to the dream of being our sole provider, it is very sweet but in the meantime I am blessed to have a career and a new opportunity to create more income for us.

I am not sure many 20 something year old men are able to really be financially stable but I know they can work towards that goal.

Kitty,

I had this exact conversation with my YM this morning. He sounded really down. The reason was the financial position we're in. But he's not severely depressed over it and he's got a lot of determination.

I think it will become clear to him that in America these days (especially here in San Francisco area where it's so expensive, but I am required to stay for the next 2 years), you do need two income providers (at least). I don't want to say that to him now though. Who knows? He helped his friend start a business that is very profitable now just after a year, and he is going to try the same thing for himself now. Maybe it will be successful, maybe not. I've got to give him support and encouragement to try it though. I don't want to be a nagger or naysayer.

In the meantime... I've got to keep up my job hunting. He knows I'll be working full time when and if I do get that job. He encourages me and always says, "Good luck!" or "God willing, you'll get this job." Then he'll ask how the interview went, etc. But he does want to be able to be the provider eventually, and I think that's a good thing. It's definitely part of HIS culture. It's part of American culture, too... albeit hidden these days. Not in my family though. It's the same culture I've come from right here in America.

Speaking of which..... I just got an email from the client I have sometimes... I have a couple of work assignements - woo hooo! (I only wish it didn't take 8 weeks to chase down the payment every time for this work I do for them!)

I'll have to check back to the forums later! Have a great day everyone!

he does want to be able to be the provider eventually, and I think that's a good thing. It's definitely part of HIS culture. It's part of American culture, too... albeit hidden these days. Not in my family though. It's the same culture I've come from right here in America.


I think it is an admirable thing and one that should be commended.
My YM is the financial provider in our relationship and he feels just as strongly as I do that when there are children involved, someone needs to be available, all the time. We are by no means well off, and he works very hard, but we manage to run a household of 5 and have one in college on what he makes. There isnt any left over for luxuries, but everyone gets what they need, especially time and adequate attention...which is IMO the most important.

Naznoor, I enjoy reading your posts and what you have to say...

I now just want to point out one thing. You dated your 1st husband, a couple of months, before you married him. You only knew your 2nd husband for 5 days face to face before you married him. Yes, I know you said you kept lots of contact with him via Internet and phone, similar as to your YM now. But this time you are engaged and ready to marry him without even meeting him face to face. That is a BIG red flag! Each time you are getting to know your men (face to face) less and less before you say "I do"...

Regardless how much you think you love your YM, and know him so well (you also said that you thought you knew your 2nd husband real well before you married him) you should date your YM face to face for at least a year before you live together or even consider the word marriage!

Just MHO...

Good luck!

I think it is true that a person should personally know their intended spouse, after this they can exceed expections, my husband is better than I ever believed any man to be. the awareness can even be better than originally hoped for.

Hi Celtish,

Thanks for all your insight, too. I have a lifelong dream of being able to write a lot of thought into just a few words. (I have a friend who can do that! it's amazing!) When I write all these long posts, I know that some facts get lost to the reader, unfortunately. There is a lot to say though - a lot about the situation that makes big differences.

Yes, I am well aware that addicts come from all over the world and all religions and none. During my first marriage, I went to couples counseling and I also went to Al Anon meetings for a while. When I converted to Islam, I did at that time have a naive notion about Muslims being all good, but that was quickly removed. I remember once trying to find an AA meeting for a muslim friend of mine in Pakistan, and was surprised to find that there are AA meetings all over the world, in muslim countries, too, even where the sale of alcohol is illegal.

It's the obsessive/compulsive personality, I think, that can make a person more susceptible to becoming addicted to something. And I am well aware that someone can be this way whether or not they have ever popped a pill or smoked a joint or taken a swig of booze.

I'm taking all your words into consideration and I'm going to think about whether I'm addicted to something or not. I don't see it, but I don't automatically discount the possibility. My YM does make me happy, but it's got a lot to do with.. hmm.. well a lot of things. The first thing that just popped into my head though was the support in parenting. It's hard to be a single parent. I should know.. I've essentially been a single parent for 15 years now.

As to my own upbringing, and personal beliefs and desires, my spritual and religious beliefs... all of this converges (from different angles, different religious teachings, muslim, christian, and Jewish mainly), in the strong convictiion that a family really should be comprised of a mother, a father (or mother/father figures) and the children. Also, it's important to me to have extended family in the mix - in contact and interacting, if possible (and if not dangerous to the family well being). If I say I believe that a short term engagement can lead to a long term happy marriage, one without pre-marital sex involved... this is based on examples in my extended family and others I know from all of these different religious backgrounds. I myself regret having not been a virgin when I married first time.

Also, it's my personal belief that (especially in my own family situation where I am stuck 3,000 miles away from any extended family, without a geographically close network of friends, and with a physical health limitations), it's best if there is a man to provide, while the wife focuses on the home, raising the children, and "making the house a home".

So I guess you could say I'm addicted to the idea of being a homemaker (like all the other women in my very large extended family). I've been working at some thing or another since I was 8 years old. I got to be a happy homemaker for 3 good years of my children's lives. I can say, comparing the two ways of living, I'd RATHER be a homemaker than a career woman who works outside the home. I can be a career woman. I've done it very successfully. But that's just not my cup of tea.. it really isn't. So yeah.. I'm addicted to that lifestyle, and I am always hoping for it. If there is a man who will marry me and provide for that kind of a lifestyle, I will find an initial interest in him. But on the other hand, I will not jump into it with blinders on either. I AM looking for red flags. Of course, I realize not everyone is perfect, and you can't find everything you ever wanted in one person. But honestly.. the chips are stacking in favor of the young man so far.

So this life long dream of mine is not at all what I have gotten in life, however, that doesn't mean I can't still want it. It also doesn't mean that it's unatainable. And it doesn't mean it's an unhealthy desire.

Yes, I feel some guilt about what happened to my child. But that is fleeting. Obviously, there is not a lot I can say here in this forum, but believe me... I did an outstanding job of fighting for and protecting my children the past 15 years. Unfortunately, the criminal was more clever... until he slipped up and got caught. I don't blame myself for what happened, but I am very very sad that the opportunity was there basically because I have always had to be focused for a good portion of my time on work outside the home. (Or even if inside the home, but I mean ... work to provide income.)

Incidentally, this is something that endears me to my young man now. Unlike the other two husbands who had no problem with my financially supporting the marriage, my young man will NOT come here until HE can be the one to provide for us, or at least be an equal contributor. He will not put me in the position of having to be the provider anymore. And he won't take a thing from me.


That is all very admirable. I'm not saying he isn't a good person...nor am I suggesting you aren't. I think you know that. What I *am* suggesting though, is slightly different. Let me try to clarify.

You said you were addicted to the lifestyle. I don't necessarily think that's true, in the literal definition of the word addiction. To be addicted to something is to crave it. While I'm sure you *want* that lifestyle, I don't think it's something you crave.

We CAN, however, be addicted to other people, just like we're addicted to alcohol or cigarettes or drugs. Merriam-Webster defines addiction as:
"compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly".

Other people on this board have mentioned being addicted to another person in previous posts. Oftentimes we don't even realize we're addicted until we try to break the habit, and this is very true in the case of people. Anxiety, loss, emptiness...we realize that person has been providing us with emotions we enjoy and can't seem to get any other way, or from any other person. It doesn't matter how long we are denied access to this person, their absense, whether it's no calls, emails or in person causes tremendous anxiety, moreso than merely worrying over their wellbeing. Obsession also plays a large role in it...thinking about the person all the time (I've heard more than 3 times a day to more than 10), and the feelings that you have when you think of them contribute to addiction. Dopamine levels are increased when you're in love...some people do get addicted to this. Perhaps that's what it is. I don't know. All I know is that a person or the concept of a person can be very tantalizing...particularly in cyberland, where you don't really have to live with their flaws, and can paint whatever picture of them you want to.

I hope that explains what I'm trying to say a bit better. I'm with Alta on this as well. Talking with someone, even every day can help you learn about them a LOT, but it's absolutely no substitute to being with them day after day, watching them, learning them in the flesh.

One last thing I would like to bring up as well. One of the reasons I really don't like long distant relationships is because it takes the oness off of now and puts it onto "some day". Some day we will be together, some day there will be enough money, some day some day....I know for myself, now is all I've got. If I'm not completely happy and centered and whole right now, right this minute, waiting for something to happen is not going to make me any more so. If what you have with your young man is enough for you right now, and you're happy in all aspects of your life, then that's awesome. If you're just holding on in idle, thinking that his presence in things will make it better, then that concerns me. Don't put your life on hold while waiting, is all I'm saying. If you're not, then great. Maybe these words will touch someone else who needs to hear them.

I'm with Alta on this as well. Talking with someone, even every day can help you learn about them a LOT, but it's absolutely no substitute to being with them day after day, watching them, learning them in the flesh.

One last thing I would like to bring up as well. One of the reasons I really don't like long distant relationships is because it takes the oness off of now and puts it onto "some day". Some day we will be together, some day there will be enough money, some day some day....I know for myself, now is all I've got. If I'm not completely happy and centered and whole right now, right this minute, waiting for something to happen is not going to make me any more so. If what you have with your young man is enough for you right now, and you're happy in all aspects of your life, then that's awesome. If you're just holding on in idle, thinking that his presence in things will make it better, then that concerns me. Don't put your life on hold while waiting, is all I'm saying. If you're not, then great. Maybe these words will touch someone else who needs to hear them.

...great comments, Celtic...

this time you are engaged and ready to marry him without even meeting him face to face. That is a BIG red flag! Exactly what I was trying to say...

Also, why even talk to girls about being engaged etc. until he actually moves to where you are, and you two have got to know each other even better?

I understand about the picture of a "husband-breadwinner, mother-caregiver." That was my dream also. When my first marriage ended after 14 years, I so wanted to marry the right guy and have that dream come true.

The problem is that issues with step-fathers and teens are enormous. Studies have shown that children are MORE WELL ADJUSTED when the Mom remains single rather than remarrying, even if the guy is a jewel.

I don't mean to come across as negative. It is just that I have been where you are at MANY TIMES and I don't want you to make the same mistakes that I did. :prayer:

Could your guy get a job where you are living... Maybe??? :yes:

We haven't been dating together in person (and that won't happen since we are muslims)

The Young Man I'm getting to know now has been in our life since last year, too, but he arrived on the scene some 6 months after we started our family's therapy sessions.

The trouble is that neither of us are making enough money to be able to afford plane tickets for visiting each other. And when we do have the money, something always comes up as an emergency that we use that money for instead. I suppose I could come up with the money if I got rid of my internet and cell phone, but I don't want to do that because I use both of those also for my job hunting and the few projects that I do get and work on from home.


Why can't muslims date face to face? I understand not having sex, but not seeing each other???

If you plan it in advance, you can get plane tickets for like $100-150 each way....maybe you could split the cost? If you each saved 25-30 a month, a visit within 6 months would be very possible. If neither of you has a strict schedule right now, it is even a better time to spend some quality time together.

"The young man I'm getting to know" sounds a bit different from how you have described him in other posts. I am wondering if part of your children's concern is the fact you are engaged to someone that not only you, but that THEY, haven't even met. That would concern me, whether it was my mom, sister, best friend etc. But even more so, children still living at home with a parent, I would think that there would be the sense that you will get dragged along for the ride, even if it feels like a train wreck to you. With everything else they are dealing with, it probably scares them to think of their mom marrying, and them having to live with, someone they don't know....

I know you have a lot going on. And that you deserve to be happy. I wish you the best. It make take a long time to sort everything out, but I truely believe what my signature says....it will all work out as it is meant to. :bighug:

Regardless how much you think you love your YM, and know him so well (you also said that you thought you knew your 2nd husband real well before you married him) you should date your YM face to face for at least a year before you live together or even consider the word marriage!

Just MHO...

Good luck!

I should clarify (hard to believe it's not clear with as much as I write all the time!):

Husband #1: Met at church. Eyes met across the congregation.. love at first sight. Met after the service at the hospitality hour the same day, and my mother, having seen the connection and maybe falling for him, too (as in wanting such a cool guy for a son-in-law), and thinking he's perfect for me, tells him, "You know if you ever decide to leave the priesthood, my daughter's available!" (She's NEVER done that before or since!) He took her up on her offer to come for dinner that week.

Thereafter, we also worked together each day, too, at the school. The time between dating/marriage proposal and marriage was 2 months, but time between first eye contact meeting and marriage was a bit longer. This was impulsive, no doubt about it. I have thought a lot over the years about how I should have waited. On the other hand, after years of reflection on all of the events associated with that relationship, and knowing how well he could masterfully compartmentalize his life, fool people that he lived with for years, and fool people he worked with for even more years (we're talking decades)... I can honestly say.. it would not have mattered how long I had waited to marry him. He would have kept up his facades as long as it took for me to finally marry him. Also, there were red flags back then, before I married him, but I was not knowledgable about them and neither were others in the community, and I would not have seen them still, even if I had waited a couple of years.

Husband #2: Married to him 7 years after separation and then divorce of the first husband. First email contact was from a muslim marriage site that I looked at after several years of having been a member there. Years earlier, about 2 years into my divorced period, a friend had put up a profile for me, but I had left it shortly after. I didn't feel I had the time to sort through and get to know the 300 or so people who had proposed. I was too scared to get married again anyway.

I happened to be browsing old bookmarked sites one night and came upon it again. I found one profile extraordinary (that is, his writing, his humor, and his joy of life, among other things). I contacted him just for the purpose of finding friends in my area - I was wondering if he and anyone that might be friends with him were in my local area. Nope. This was in April or May of 1999. We had an email friendship from then until August when I went on a business trip and feeling that I was far enough away from home to be safe if I gave him the hotel phone number, we spoke on the phone while I was there. He was able to somehow track down my home phone number after that, and he called me there. Initially, that scared me, but I found him sane, very intelligent, very warm and kind, and I felt comfortable talking to him. I let him continue to call and we talked on the phone from August to October 1999. He sent a couple of pictures during that time, too. Then, he came to the area here to do job hunting and he met me in person then. He stayed at my brother's apartment for a week, and sat in my office during the day if he wasn't out interviewing. We spent the evenings together, too.

In November, he asked me to marry him. I did not give any affirmative answer until January 2000 although I did consider it before then. But in November of 2000, he moved to California, moved in with my brother (who lived downstairs from me in a separate apartment). In a way, you could say that we lived together from November 1999 until July 2000 when we were married. I mean, he was always up at my apartment and doing things with me and the kids. He just slept downstairs. I was also severely ill from December and he was helping me out a lot (this is one of the reasons why I found him a good catch and said in January that I would marry him). So that's.. hmmm.... 9 months that we "lived" together before marriage, and 15 months after I first "met" him in cyberspace. And so... about... 4 years that were really good together before the sudden change in him.

I really did my investigations, too, with (the potential) husband #2. The issue with him that resulted in the end of the marriage was with the prescription drug and how it affects people over a long period of time... and his feelings of not being able to cope with that, and his desire not to put me through any more misery with it. I had also been prescribed the same drug in December 1999, and in discussing this with him, we both suspected that his original problem was not a depression problem, but a concentration and pain problem (likely also caused by fibromyalgia - which his mother also has). We think he was misdiagnosed as "depressed".

Mine was not prescribed for depression, even though this is an anti-depressant. That's what rheumatologists prescribe sometimes for treating the pain of fibromyalgia (and it doesn't work ... according to what I found in my research.. so I never took it). His taking this prescription drug which was supposed to help the pain in his arms and his concentration would not, then, be a red flag for me. His depression and anxieties, and weird obsessive/compulsive behaviors didn't show up until we were married a couple of years already. So I don't think waiting 1, or 2, or even 3 years to get to know him would have made any difference.

Arrggh.. my post is too long again.. I must continue this is a new post...

Potential husband #3 (the Young Man): Yep, he proposed to me early on and I accepted early on - sort of - after I felt love for him (which for me has a big spiritual connection to it). I should say he brought up the subject of marriage and I considered it (hesitantly at first, and then somewhat enthusiastically later). I did not immediately say I would marry him. Initially, like #2, Young Man was a friendship connection first and that was what he was intended to be - a friend who wanted to find me a good husband. But the longer we talked about this idea, the longer I spent on the phone with him every day (and in the month of December, it just so happened that we had a LOT of time we could spend on the phone together day and night), the more I got into the information on this site, then the more and more I liked the idea of having him for a husband, the more sure I felt.

I have left out a lot of details of this story with the young man - details I need to keep out still. But I can say, there is a need for me to marry sooner, rather than later - to whomever I do marry - and I intend to marry again.

Also, without going into details, let me just say that in the Muslim community, there is nothing out of the ordinary for people to marry sooner, rat