Shy or has low self-estime?

I was reading that nice post by Sherwood Spirit and a reply by Yellow Rose.. and a thought entered my mind (yeah, happens..).

Many times we are surprized that someone who is beautifull, intelligent, bright, passionate for life, sexy, educated - say : "has it all" at the same time has a low self - esteem and millions of doubts about oneself.
I used to think that we are not born that way and it is being DONE TO US by other people through abuse, humiliation, rejections, overcontrolling, emotionally dry childhood etc.

But today it just came to me that maybe it is not always like that. Maybe some of us ARE actually born that way.. and the reason I say so is that some children of the very same parents can be observed as extremely shy while other are outgoing and at ease with the world. I know that shyness is not the same as low self-esteem, but I suddenly decided to think that these two states of mind are very, very close...

Shy kids/adults mustn't believe in themselves too much.. they underestimate their chances, their virtues, looks, everything. If not proven differently, they would appear as people with low self-esteem, right? And - due to their sensitivity - once hurt - their self- evaluation will fall dramatically.. and stay low .. making things even worse..

I know that one can be strong and outgoing and be brought to the low self-esteem status by others.

But I wonder about the shy ones.. is their shyness just another side of the low self-esteem coin?? Or ???

Please, I'd be happy to hear your opinions..

Teli

well i cant respond right away to all you wrote but you are a beautiful woman Telimena. Tchau

:D :D :D :D

Hey, Brasil, thank you for the compliment! :o

That is nice to hear at any time of the day.

Good luck to you,

Teli

Teli,

I am a very shy person, though I don't appear to be. In fact, my friends laugh when I say that I am a very solitary, quiet person for when I am with other people, I can be very lively and outgoing. It took me long years to learn to do that, and it comes at a price for it tires me out tremendously. Sometimes my shyness is mistaken for arrogance or aloofness, but that generally happens when my energy level is low. But I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with self-esteem or confidence. In my case, it just takes a lot of energy and concentration to be with other people, reading their vibes and signals and interpreting what's really happening. It's also a matter of seeing the world rather differently from many people and not wishing to continually explain myself.

And yes, I have always been like this. I was a solitary child, happiest with my artwork and my books. My mother constantly nagged me to go outside and play with the other kids.

Thank you for now - and, if you don't mind, I'd like more.. :)

You make a good point; a genesis of shyness is not necessarily a lack of confidence. A different perception of the world and tiresome process of explaining oneself.. that is a perfect explanation. I would think it might be related also to the individual sensitivity (?).

I am still interested in your opinion about a genesis of the low self-esteem. Can one be born like that or project it on oneself - or it is rather an effect of the hurt and dissapointments in one's life?

It was always simple to me.. but doesn't seem like that anymore...

Teli

Teli... interesting thoughts...I was very shy as a child and all through high school. In high school, I found a way to overcome my shyness. Drinking... and anytime I need to go to a social situation, I would have a drink or 2 before hand and then I could be normal. Now I did not dance on the tables or anything like that. Later in life, I decided to not drink anymore.

Then, massive shyness but I did not go out much and had my close friends and boyfriend. Later on, after dealing with the death of my best friend and the sexual abuse of one of my children, my doctor put me on Paxil. After a few months, I noticed that I was not terrified in new social situations. It was really nice to feel comfortable at a party for the first time. I learned that Paxil is prescribed for "social anxiety". Now if I had not had therapy and worked on issues that I needed to deal with, I am certain low self-esteem would control my life more than it does now. But it is enlightening to know that shyness from birth could be just a chemical that is lacking in the brain.

Now if only my memory was better!

Gosh Teli, Now you have me thinking too. I was thinking about my children. My oldest son was literally just born outgoing...quick to smile, would let anyone pick him up when he was a year or so old. He ran up and talked his head off to perfect strangers in the grocery store. Now my youngest son, Jake, he was always the quiet one. The one who always hid behind Mom and would get big tears in his eyes if someone he did not know was trying to play with him. Obviously uncomfortable with new and different situations. He is still like that. So I started to wonder if part of it was not genetic? You are just born with the personality you get.
However, I cannot imagine anyone is born feeling badly about themselves, and that obviously is a learned response and, unfortinately, probably something that starts at home with our parents. I am going to have to research this a little and come back.
So far, it is my opinion that you can be born shy, but I can't imagine anyone is born with low-self esteem. Seems that would have to be a learned thing. Anyone else?

Hi,
Well, here is my take on this subject........If you were to take a couple of siblings and put them through a series of stressful situations......each would probably use the same tools to process the situation but it would still affect each one differently.
So yes....to some extent....you are born that way. One the other hand and, a personal observation, many shy and/or insecure people can actually seem very outgoing and confident. It is their way of putting up a shield of protection around them.
I would still have to say that most insecurities come from social and enviormental causes though....how we let these things affect us is our inner self.......parents can help their children to be strong and self assured but with each child so very different, sometimes they don't know the right tools either.
Have also noticed that this changes over the years......I still let things get to me but as the years go by it affects me less and less.
I used to get terrible panic attacks.....thought that everywhere I went I was being judged etc... It gets exhausting!!!
It still gets to me and I am still very high strung, my cross to bear I guess, but I don't let it stop me either..........it's a big waste of time and poison to any potential joy we might encounter.
Blessings, TD

I don't think that "self-esteem" as such is something we're born with -- like we pop out with 10 Self Esteem Units, and our life experiences either chip away at them, or add to them, or just maintain the level. Definitely a product of the environment, and usually the early years.
"Shyness" can be another expression for the degree of introversion - extroversion in a personality. An individual with a high degree of introversion is less outgoing socially, quieter, more solitary, etc. If nothing compensates for the natural tendency in their social interactions, they would tend to be less comfortable in social interactions = more "shy".
The introversion - extroversion dimension also has an affect on how the individual processes incoming information, whether a negative remark is internalized as "my fault", or externalized "it just happened". A high tendency toward self-blame is going to reduce self-esteem. Negative input has more power than positive, so that the low self-esteem individual can attribute their own success to luck, or another's actions on their behalf rather than personal achievement.
And, if I remember correctly, it is believed that approximately 75% of personality is inherited, which leaves only 25% open for environmental modification. We should probably develop some sort of Newborn MMPI to screen for highly introverted personalities so that parents could shield those infants from negative messages, and ensure a recommended daily intake of positive ones!

I am a very shy person, even around my family, and painfully shy around people I don't know. I did some research on the net a while back and came across "Avoidant Personality Disorder", and the symptoms fit me perfectly.

"Avoidant Personality Disorder is where a person has an extreme fear of being judged negatively by other people, and suffers from a high level of social discomfort as a result. They tend to only enter into relationships where uncritical acceptance is almost guaranteed, undergo social withdrawal, suffer from low self esteem, but have a great desire for affection and acceptance. However, they do not want the affection as much as they fear the rejection."

"Personality disorder characterized by at least 3 of the following:

a. persistent and pervasive feelings of tension and apprehension;
b. belief that one is socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others;
c. excessive preoccupation with being criticized or rejected in social situations;
d. unwillingness to become involved with people unless certain of being liked;
e. restrictions in lifestyle because of need to have physical security;
f. avoidance of social or occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact because of fear of criticism, disapproval, or rejection."

Link http://www.mental-health-matters.com/disorders/dis_details.php?disID=13

I think all this is a result of low confidence/self-esteem (as I'm aware that mine are low), but then I've always been shy, even when I was little. So perhaps its possible to be born with low self-esteem? As a hereditary personality trait or chemical imbalance? My father is pretty shy and introverted, but not nearly as bad as me. I also have alot of memories of my mother putting me down as a child, which didn't help the matter any.

Anywho, I'm trying to work on it. I came across an idea somewhere on the net that I should take a public speaking course, get myself through it, and when its finished enroll in it again and keep doing it until I'm alot more confident speaking out and expressing myself. The thought of doing that makes me sick but I have to give it a shot if I want to get anywhere in life. Right now my shyness controls me.

Firstly, I did correct a spelling of the "esteem" word, yet it still appears wrongly in the threads' listing. Sorry, dunno how to change that..

Barbara, I would never guess that you were so very shy.. Thanks God that you found another solutions.. buzz ain't good for a long distance..

It is soo strange how these things work. As a child I was very shy and craving for attention. I would feel uncomfortable posing to the photo, trying to hide behind someone. At the same time I would love to be chosen to read something loud or asked for anything to do in front of others - just to be THE ONE, even if it was only to wipe the blackboard.

Without any siblings, among older women who didn't let any of my friends to the house, I grew up a bit like Arachne - a loner. My inner world was based on the books I've learned to read early and that inner world was richer than the real one. In the real world I would try to please everyone, suffer a drama if the school friend was wispering to someone something (immediately I was sure it was about me or against me..). And the only time I felt good was when I was performing on the school events - either reciting a poem, dancing or participating in a play. Being shy and insecure I had no problem performing in front of people.. and I loved it.. that was my boost.. my reward... That helped me later in my career that required public presentations.

Like you, ladies, I've learned to overcome the shynes (or cover it up at times).. and also many times I've heard that I am aloof or ignore people.. and nobody would believe me that I was shy. People think I am very strong, a solid rock with no problems, one that easily goes ahead. And it just happened that I am nice and giving soul... LOL.. Jeeezzz... I simply HAD TO pass through many obstacles and usually had to do it alone, so I did it - at the price, of course... But that price is not widely published.. People don't see that, cannot feel that, right?

Liz, as you say: nature doesn't allow any vacuum, any blanks.
(I will twist your thought here..lol..) Therefore when the shyness diminished, the insecurity grew. I was kinda serious as a teenager, hadn't really date. Already then I felt like I am worse than the other girls, although I wasn't ugly or unpleasant to be with. And I am sure that my being shy and insecure contributed to that emerging low self esteem. There must be a close connection, tiny borders between these..

Today I am a big girl. I know what I know about myself, life, people in it, people out of it. I don't suffer with general low self esteem, I am sure of that. But I still kept some insecurities ( not that I need them.. they just wouldn't leave me..) and that f.....n sensitivity that can so easily transmit me to another planet from the present peaceful one. Since I observe that the same issues were with me years ago, I shall conclude that this is me, my personality - and I was just born that way (thanks, mommy..).

So, here we are, Joannalee - part of it is probably genetic. Part of it exists because someone contributed to that and I was genetically prone to absorb it the way I did. It is very difficult for me - no matter how hard I try - NOT TO LET things get to me. Whatever it is - at work, on personal ground - anything would go deeeep.. If I could find a cure for that, I'd be the happiest one..

Even today - I've read what BA says, that happiness was born as a twin. And to appreciate it one has to share it. GREAT and TRUE. But there was an immediate horn to my heart.. booo.. I don't have a twin and don't event think about dating again.. Is my life worth less then?

Go figure..

Thank you very much, ladies. You write so interesting and openly; I really, really enjoy it.

Teli

Savannah, you did a great job here; thank you! Are these things known to you professionally? Your post is very enlightening.

I had no idea that a negative message has more power and never realized that the same event can be perceived so differently by people depending on the type of their personality. Seems obvious, but I never really thought about it!

It is so clear now to me why I did and do suffer often, while my co-worker laughs at the same issue. I am the one who tends to take a blame.. she is the lucky one to blame the world, the others, whatever - never herself..
So, what I called " sensitivity" is in fact my way of transposing the information before it gets stored and affects what I feel or how I feel. Wow, it IS interesting..
I guess I could still use a "daily intake" of positive messages to balance out the negative ones that I tend to absoooorb..

Justin, thank you for a very interesting and open post. If you'd have a chance to try to speak publicly, that would really be a great training. Believe me, it is not that difficult after the first time, and a success tastes great!

Did you ever try Paxil, that Yellow Rose tested as good for social anxiety? How do you feel around your school mates?

Hugs,

Teli

Just call me a member of the "Post & Run Club" -- I throw something up there, then leave for a few hours......

Yes, Teli, these are things that I learned professionally (social work education) -- but they "stuck" because I can relate them to personally. I know that I fall on the far end of the introversion scale because, in first-year psychology, the graduate students used us as guinea pig subjects for their various experimental studies, and I was selected to continue on to the next phase of one study because of high introversion.

I can also see far too many aspects of my personality that have been inherited from my father. I too was very shy, very "bookish", and had very low self-esteem. And it's obvious to me now that this was a combination of a tendency to internalize and cruelly hyper-critical parents. Fortunately, I showed academic promise from a very early age, so I got a lot of positive feedback from school. I always tended to have one very close friend rather than a wide social circle. To strangers, I appear aloof and cold, unless you take the time to find out what's under the protective shell. However, it has taken literally years of professional success to gradually build up my confidence in my abilities. Now I can accept that my strengths are more analytical and detail-oriented, and I have to really put some effort in if my work requires a more global "big picture" approach.

I can't remember where I heard it, or if it is even a "scientific" fact, but I do remember hearing that it takes 8 positive messages to counteract 1 negative message. However (and who counts these things?), we hear more negative messages than positive in our daily exchanges with others.

There was also someone who studied women in upper-level management positions, and concluded that even highly successful women are more likely than men to underrate their abilities, and credit their position to impersonal factors such as luck or coincidence, rather than achievement or skill. So the tendency to dismiss accomplishment may be gender-linked as well -- anyone's guess whether that is a product of the female socialization process, or is hereditary. There are hordes of studies showing subtly differential treatment of boys and girls in school.

Not only a professional, but even an introvert.. makes me feel so much better knowing that I am not the only one.. and the note about gender related tendency to irrate our achievements is simply delightful!

Now, 8 + versus 1 -.. hard to balance it in real life, even in dreams.. How can I ever improve my daughter's balance.. I was a single mom since she was 8 y.o. - not enough time for her, not enough patience, she wasn't good at school until the last year in college.. we were fighting over that all the time.. she was the shy one ... now she is definitely not the strong one .. Why don't we have classes before we bring the children to the world.. everybody is experimenting, wanting the best and it not necessarily becomes the best..

I wanted to mention something else. In my everyday life in NY I see many people that I would describe as "people with attitude". Aggresive, loud, no manners, just THEM - and the rest of the world left behind. Usually not well educated, but that varies. Sometimes looking like the monsters, yet still in tight leggins and short blouse.. People like that make me nauseous, anxiety raises immediately. My tollerance level is below zero.. I try to fight it; often some of such people are our clients.. every day I see that type on the subway..

Would you have any advice or suggestion how to increase my immunity? So far I have to control myself very hard not to show anything, but maybe there is a way to work something out?

With introvertical regard,

Teli

Hmmm....would it help to know that the "attitude" is usually a protective shell for insecurity? I also have those types as my clients, and sometimes it's only my professional role that keeps my mouth shut. And most often, the defiance is displayed in retaliation for some control or another that my organization has exerted upon them -- they feel weak and powerless and like they're at our mercy, so they lash out in an attempt to regain some personal power. Sometimes they walk in the door with the chip on their shoulder, expecting to be "jerked around", so they start with a good offensive right from the first minute.
My favourite exorcism is, after hanging up following a particularly irritating phone conversation, to swear loudly and profusely at the poor phone. Just express the anger at the first safe opportunity to do so, and it washes away. In my case, it has to be dissipated quickly, because the phone may ring again a minute later, and I will have to deal with another client -- who deserves a clean slate. I'm lucky to work surrounded by coworkers in the same position, so we are very supportive of one another -- it helps just to be able to express how annoyed/frustrated you are to someone who has been there many. many times.
In the outside world, they have adopted a certain "f*** you" stance as a way of defying those who they perceive as holding power relative to themselves. In essence, they defy the conventions of the majority (in dress, appearance, language, manners) as a way of saying, "I reject you and all you stand for, because I can't join your club. You don't want me? -- well, I don't want to be like you!". Scratch below that prickly surface (as I must do, as their counselor) and there is a vulnerable human being, with the same fears and desires as the rest of us. Shared humour is often a good barrier-breaker, as is a willingness to give them some power (I used to try and find some area of expertise that they had, and that I had little knowledge of), but often I have to expose a little bit of my own vulnerability for them to show me theirs. And those sorts of things are possible within the development of a client-worker relationship, not on a casual basis. (Some of my most "difficult", abrasive clients were the quickest ones to contact me for help when they found themselves in tough situations...........)

Yes, Savannah the "attitude" is a shell and I can understand that, but have no time to consider that when screamed at or else.. Today in the subway a heavy woman wanted to fit herself on the part of the seat available . I was reading. Suddenly I felt like a blow to my knees. She just let her body fell down on that seat and part of her butt didn't fall on the seat but instead gave me that nice blow. She looked at me with such a mad face.. and she expected ME to apologize...It was so unjust.. who would make me feel compassionate at that moment.. LOL..

I am joking.. what you say is absolutely right and I agree that it might help.. it is just another form/ motivation of self-control I'd have to employ..

Cursing that poor phone and also put the phone down in that specific rounded movement that supposed to say: go away, get off me... that is wonderful and I do that from time to time. You are absolutely right, it is like blowing some of the anger out. Sometimes when they were really abusive I would almost shake. I have to be cool - if not polite.. After such phone I'd usually go to relax with a cigarette. But I quit smoking like 2 months ago (still on patches, though) - and the real or imagined soothing power of a smoke is no longer for me.. Maybe should start drinking instead???

I have read a while ago that there is a way of relieving stress and anxiety by certain way of breathing; I wish I could get some schooling in that.. But the most desirable status would be to be able to let it reach the wall - and not me..

You make a very good point with that resentment a'priori: " I reject you because I can't join your club. You don't want me? Well, I don't want to be like you". It explains a lot.. and you know, understanding that approach gives me a tool :)

And why do you have to live in Canada and not in NY or even upstate NY.. Being a rebel toward a "must" and "have to" I could easily take an advise or counceling in the form you use. Very good!

Thanks again,

Teli

Well, social workers are human too! I've certainly been guilty of trying to re-establish my "authority"/"superiority" in an interaction by using a lot of technical jargon and polysyllabic words, which makes the poor client feel stupid -- pretty much my intent at that moment in time. I feel horrible about it afterwards, and generally go overboard to try and make it up to them, as if that cancels out my lapse of professionalism! But, hey -- those mornings when you wake up late, and it just throws your whole day off, and your caffeine intake is at 30% of normal, and the dog jumps affectionately on Dry Clean Only pants with muddy paws as you dash out the door.........! And you expect me to be NICE to people? ......LOL

Of course you KNOW that the lady who imposed herself on your space was scowling at you in anticipation of your angry reaction...... and behind her snarl is the thought, "Oh, why am I so big and clumsy?" And maybe a little bit of resentment directed at you simply because you take up less space.

Want to defuse it instantly? I knew a guy who did this naturally, effortlesly -- and, to his credit, without any manipulative intent. Whenever someone is rude to you, bumps you, cuts you off in the supermarket with their cart: apologize immediately. He was brought up in a very traditional home, and taught that it was good manners to do this, regardless of whose "fault" it was -- coupled with a low self-esteem that filtered every event so that he perceived it as his fault, even if it was clearly the other person's error! Anyway, I watched him do this for quite a while, biting back the urge to say, "Hey! Don't apologize if you've got nothing to apologize for!" And the most magical thing happened: these people who were starting to sprout a nasty snarl instantly turned contrite, saying, "No, no -- my fault, I'm sorry!" Seeing this sure changed my ideas of what "pride" and "submissiveness" meant. At first I thought he was a social doormat, then I started to realize that it cost him nothing, and made casual interactions much more pleasant.

Not that I've ever been able to choke down my own sense of pride and personal justice to be able to emulate his example, unless I'm in a very, very upbeat mood. I do recall one occasion when a supervisor had chewed me out for taking orders from someone else rather than her, and done so loudly and inappropriately -- basically venting her rage at having her authority undermined. I avoided her all that day, but the next morning came face to face with her oncoming in a hallway. I thought to myself, "I'm bigger than that", so I greeted her with a cheery "Good morning!" and a big smile -- and it was all behind us. (And if you knew me, I am not a morning person -- no one gets anything remotely cheery out of me before 10 AM)

Way to go for quitting the weed! After 24 years of heavy smoking(I started as an infant, LOL), I managed to give it up 3 years ago. (And I will never start again, because I never want to have to quit again.........)

Apologize regardless of who's fault it is..

At first it hits me and the only response is: - no way!! That is unjust!
Then when I think about it, I find it an acceptable deflator but under one condition. That I would see it was understood and taken as you said people were taking it when your friend did it. Meaning, depends on whom you are dealing with - you may go off your way and the issue becomes a non-issue instantly. But I don't think I'd be able to do that with people I talked about earlier..

Have to give it some thoughts.. right now it is beyond my limits.. LOL..

I smoked for 35-6 years. Still have cravings and it happens that I have one smoke per week. But I really want to quit this time.

Thank you very, very much..

Teli

The thing is, it is easy to be rude and abrupt with people who are strangers; the minute a connection is established, the person is less of a stranger, and then common courtesy kicks in. I can see I'll have to do a participant observation study on this: go around reacting in apologetic mode and note the responses, then go around in aggressive mode, and note responses....... it almost sounds like fun! (Another friend of mine used to play a game, whenever he was driving a borrowed or rental car, of honking and waving to complete strangers, to see how many would automatically wave back, without knowing him -- it's amazing how many do!)

In all the time I've known him, not one person has ever reacted by snapping back, "You should be sorry, you idiot!" or something like that. Every one was completely disarmed by his willingness to accept blame. And he's just the kind of person that shrugs off everyday annoyances -- or turns them inward, but never externalizes blame.

The "connection" that trips the encounter from stranger to personal can be something as simple as (project genuine sincerity) "Oh, I love your earrings!" or "What a lovely coat!" -- whatever. Something completely contrary to their expectations. And I know this works because I've had various customer service personnel use it on me! (And I'm a tough nut to crack!) My mother the extrovert also does this quite naturally, whether she's trying to defuse anger or not (and she's quite irritating at the best of times, but she is very much a pacifier and a peacemaker), and everyone dotes on her.

It all sounds very manipulative, but not in a negative way -- you're just manipulating the environment to generate positive interaction. ;) Ultimately, you have the upper hand, because you have control over how the contact plays out from the initial encounter.

I think it's something you have to build up gradually; doubt anyone can go to full-time Susy Sunshine overnight! (And probably not during nicotine withdrawal.........)

Next time you have the urge to smoke, go and SNIFF a smoker -- that'll put you off real quick.

I certainly was a *very* shy child, and don't really consider myself a shy person anymore - although there are certainly times when it kicks in again.

I don't actually think shyness has a damned thing to do with self-esteem. Most of the time when I'm not talking, it really isn't about feeling "less than" anybody - often I feel that whoever is dominating the room is a big old idiot.

There's a woman named Elaine Aronson who wrote a book about "highly sensitive" children - who are more responsive to and worried about sounds, other people's reactions and emotions, and just general stimuli - so much so that they get overloaded and need to "disconnect" for a while.

This trait does seem to be correlated with self-perceived shyness in kids, and to some degree, in adults.

And my Mom recently divulged that I was the most light and noise-sensitive baby she ever saw :>

I think Desert Spring is right about the reactions of the "highly sensitive" person. External stimuli can be quite overwhelming to some, and I believe that this trait is inborn, not learned. However, it can lead to low self-esteem if one is criticized for one's reactions: Don't be so sensitive. Stop complaining. Get over it... People who are not affected so strongly do not understand, and one learns to keep to oneself rather than be exposed to such negativity.

You write so interesting, and thank you again for the affable and nice form that I can understand. I read every response of yours few times and so far you have me accepting everything you say..lol.. and that doesn't happen too often with me.. (another tough cookie??). Reading you I see a very nice, understanding and helpful soul (all right, except for the mornings..) so it is hard to believe that you really ARE a tough cookie.. ;)

I thought a little about that a'priori apologetic approach, although everything in me is strongly rebelling against it. The logic behind that approach is obvious. Another proof we have here described by Desert Spring; what a great way of handling the possible difficult situation.. I would probably be scared to death but pretend that I don't care and if anything happened I'd probably try to fight - with or without any chances.. And how stupid that would be!

This exchange of questions, doubts and answers is very helpful and really shows the roads less traveled but much better and safer..

So, I decided (like it was me who discovered America here..lol). I decided that I will give it a try, to dissarm the "enemy" with my kindness. I know it won't be easy for me. Whatever it is - sensitivity or something else that I cannot properly name - there are people (regardless their looks) that I feel fine about and there are others that from the very first glimpse - just passing by or seeing that person in the store or in TV - I feel some negativity. I have no idea why and what is causing it - but it is VERY strong. I wonder, is that common, is that how everybody reacts? I would think so.. but any response to that - yet another - question is welcomed :)

Amazingly enough I use that first glimpse thing in my professional life. Whenever I have chosen an applicant to be hired - it was soon proven that she/he was an asset. And if I told the boss that his choice was not good - it would soon be proven true (the employee would fail). I have never did any "regular" interview and am amazed that my boss is screening resumes carefully; he wouldn't interview anyone without that.
I do! I look at the person, getting my "feel" first. Only consider people that I feel good about. Ask them to say something about themselves and listen HOW they say it and how that makes me feel about them. I look for a potential, for some "sparks" in that applicant much more than for an experience (real or just nicely written in resume). The last case was my assistant; boss didn't want to hire her at all because of a little experience in accounting, and I have chosen her and didn't want anybody else. I won - and the company won as well. Full time great employee, husband and two kids, and now full time in college - with average A-. Extremely bright !

Desert Spring, I like to read your posts very much (guess, most of us here do; so I've heard..) I wondered not once how one manages to be so confident and wise; now you are saying you were a very shy kid.. and very sensitive too. Gosh.. How did you "convert yourself", what were the major factors in your life that let you achieve that?

Arachne (is that a name from mythology? who was she?), thank you for your input. It seems that the sensitive ones and the shy ones can still feel good about themselves and be perceived positively by the world as well. We never talked here about the price that some of us had to/ has to pay.. that might be too difficult and even maybe hard to describe.. it is probably very individual too.

About feeling overwhelmed.. sometimes during shopping or just browsing for a long time I suddenly feel that I cannot do it any longer.. it becomes extremely boring and I have to leave, otherwise I'd become irritated. Is that "normal"? Maybe it's just because there is soo much junk in these stores nowadays..

:) Grateful to the respondents,

Teli

I can't wait to hear the results of your social experiment!

Don't give up on your "gut instincts" -- they never lie! What we call intuition is really a subconscious accumulation of data over the years of our experience in relations with people. The human brain is like an extremely powerful computer, capable of storing vast amounts of information. We use only 10% (?) of our brain's capacity. But, unlike a computer, where you have to go searching for the file you want and then open it, your brain keeps its information stored just below the surface, and you are accessing it continuously, often without conscious knowledge. In every encounter, you are processing and gathering hundreds of pieces of information simultaneously. And that's what we call our "gut instinct": that funny feeling that we know "something" that's not readily apparent -- something's just not quite right with this person. Because your brain already has processed the visual and auditory cues, and it's waving a red flag for you! I suspect that's the source of the "negativity" you describe feeling.

Don't all women have a built-in "creep sensor"? (Except for those practiced smoothies who manage to bypass it until we fall for them, and then we deliberately ignore those warning twinges.......) The hairs on the back of my neck invariably prickle when in the presence of a sex offender or child molester; a few times I've said to myself, "Are you nuts? This guy's harmless!" and then found out later that my intuition was not leading me astray (note: this is in a professional context, I'm not seeing them socially! Although once, with a male relative, I tried to argue with the instinct -- only to have my mother later confirm that my suspicions had been correct.) I also have an odd knack for working with schizophrenic individuals, because I'm very comfortable with them. "Helpful soul" indeed!

Next time you get those negative feelings, pause for a minute, and try to figure out what cues you're responding to -- if you can pick out a few, you might be surprised to find knowledge you never knew you possessed!

(But don't smoke..........:D )

Hey, did any of you ever hear of the book, "Human Development" by Fisher and Lazerson? It's actually a college psychology textbook, but I bought it when I was pregnant with my first child because I happened across it and found it invaluable.

It states that people are born one of the three following temperments:

Easy

Slow-to-Warm-Up

Difficult

The outcome of these babies depends on the parents, according to the studies in this book. For instance, a difficult baby needs a mellow parent, not too much stimuli. An easy baby would need a more stimulating parent, as he would be bored to easily by a less interactive one.

So yes! We ARE born with bold or shy temperments, but we can be altered by our upbringing.

I also, am one to apologize when people bump into me, not because I feel I HAVE to, but because I want to make a connection with them, and let them know it's okay. :) Just like what you all stated above, I have always gotten the response, "Oh no, it's MY FAULT" from them, or "OH! No, excuse ME!" accompanied by a smile. I always figured rude people weren't happy about something and needed a break. I've been there, in the unhappy zone. Now that I'm out of it, I figure I can afford some unconditional empathy. :)

It's fascinating. I am hungry for more!

I seem to be like a neanderthal that feels something but has no idea what is it and why.. :o
I don't mind at all to expose it.. and absorb the experiences and the knowledge so kindly shared. Thank you.

Now, when I just thought that I might present myself as unique in certain way, as having some super-natural abilities or something like that - I am given pure and simple scientific explanation of it.. Gut instinct , yes, that's it. Back to my ordinary human self.. :p ( I meant: shell..).

Savannah, why do you say that gut instinct never lies? I wonder: our own experiences/ knowledge stored in our brains are just OURS, subjective. Meaning, if we were wrong once or more in the similar case/situation - our gut instinct will use these "wrong" basics to process our reaction in the next case, right? Meaning, we can be/do wrong again and again? How this works? Please, Savannah, I will dance for you on your wedding or something.. would you find some more patience for elaborating this?

Ladies, you make me think about being born again much earlier than I am supposed to.. I used to think that in my next life I would be a psychologist or a lawyer (legislative - not criminal). Now my curiosity about psychology grows fast and - God forbid - I might start searching for more and even read something..

Polly, I asked you once if you have a stock of books handy so you can find so many answers so easily.. and look, seems like my suspicions were justified.. LOL.. I also suspect you of being a "people person" .. a virtue that God didn't enclose with every package. I can be that too but not always and not for long.. so now I am deeply dissapointed with myself...

Maybe it's time not only to relax (no kids in the house..) and take care of hair dying.. Maybe it's also a good time for some exploration and search within such "close environment" like my very self (meaning: human being .. ).

Savannah, I love that part of your post about built-in "creep sensor" and our consequency in ignoring the obvious red flags once the guy gets to us.. It is sooo very feminine.. and another question pops-up.. why are we so irrational? Not only we let them do things to us but yet we tend to forgive.. and not once.. That is so ridiculous - isn't it against us?

My gratitude to active participants,

Teli

Teli,

You are correct, Arachne is from Greek mythology: <a href="http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/arachne.html">her story</a>.

I am a strong believer in intuition. I once told a friend that I felt very fortunate in not running across too many jerks while dating, especially after hearing such horror stories from others. She laughed and said it was because I always see the good in people. Ah, but the truth is that I also see the bad and I have learned to stay away from it!

We all have the ability; we just have to learn to trust ourselves. I knew in my heart that I shouldn't have married my ex-husband, but I lacked the confidence at that young age to stand alone.

Like you, I do not enjoy shopping -- too much input. Actually, one counselor asked me whether I had ever been evaluated for attention deficit. A whole 'nother topic, but I wonder if nonstandard views of the world (I do not consider them disorders necessarily) are not related, perhaps along a continuum from extreme autism (in which sensory perception is completely overwhelming) to those who have little quirks in dealing with the external world. (Ok, I confess, I started my college career as a biopsychology major!)

And it's never too late to learn something new, Teli. If you think you would like to study psychology, go for it! I have a friend in her late 50's, a grandmother, who is just now completing her master's in social work, while going through a nasty divorce and battling breast cancer. You never know what you can do until you try.

Yeah, the story of mythological Arachne sends few messages.. the most prosaic one is to be carefull who do you challenge.. LOL..

You know, actually I could take some classes in psychology as a non-degree student; the thing is every credit cost double the price of degree student. So, probably I will go to the library and find some books instead to satisfy the basic need TO KNOW.
Then I might either drop it or become hooked up - and go to college.. will see.

Attention deficit disorder is something I hear all around the town. my friends keep talking about it with reference to their kids, who look quite normal for us but teachers think otherwise.. Isn't it just popular now to find it in people?- I dunno..

O.K. - ladies, I do have to leave now - and for the week, until we'll be back from Miami. The forecast is not quite good for our vacation, but even the rain won't prevent us from enjoying that time.

Talk to you soon,

Teli

I'm sure you're on your way to Miami as I write this, but I'll do my best to try and answer some of your questions.

When you're at the library, try to get your hands on a copy of A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis MD, Fari Amini MD and Richard Lannon MD. This book is an excellent synthesis of psychological and neurological theories about human emotion, particularly love. (And I had to run upstairs and grab it to make sure I was getting my facts straight)

And I'm not entirely sure that your feelings/reactions to other people are in any way "ordinary" -- we're all attuned to the voice of our intuition to varying degrees, and I think you may be more sensitive than most to yours (you just didn't know where the information was coming from!). All I've done is give it a conceptual label and a framework for understanding.

Think of why it's commonly been referred to as "women's intuition": we are stereotypically the sensitive gender. I'm sure men's intuition sends them messages just as often, they just dismiss them more readily than women do, because men rely less on feelings and emotions, and more on rational thought and concrete evidence. And how many times do people have little twinges of doubt or unease, ignore them as "silly", and forge ahead in defiance of their intuitive warnings?

I say that the gut instinct never lies because it originates in the part of our brain that is common with animals: the limbic brain. This part functions to coordinate sensory input from the external environment with that from the body itself, and regulate bodily conditions to fit the outside world. This is what sends adrenalin into our system if we need a boost of energy to fight or flee, tells our body to sweat or shiver for changes in temperature -- that sort of thing. It also sends messages to the neocortical brain, where conscious thought and planning take place.

In view of how this all started, and because I can't say it any better than Lewis, Amini and Lannon, here is a rather long quote:
"Consider, for instance, this situation: a man is riding to work on a bus, heading for the financial district in downtown San Francisco. A tattooed teenager with a shaved head (not a rarity in these parts) boards the vehicle, glares at the commuter, and bumps by him. That sensory experience flashes to the limbic brain, which will sift the event for its significance and prepare physiology to meet that singular moment. Our man's brain will receive input about the intruder's facial expression, his pupil size, his body posture and gait, and perhaps even his scent. The limbic brain evaluates the nature of the other's intention -- is it careless, aggressive, friendly, sexual, indifferent? A given limbic brain arrives at conclusions based on the collaboration of its genetically specified wiring scheme and past experiences of similar situations. In this case, let us suppose our man's limbic apparatus detects hostilityand, to meet the situation, equips him with the emotion of anger.
Once the limbic brain has settled on an emotional state, it sends outputs to the neocortical brain, spawning a conscious thought (Who the h*ll does this guy think he is? ). At the same time, limbic outputs to the premotor areas of the neocortex are directing action-planning. Meanwhile, outputs to the endocrine system will alter stress hormone release, which may impact the entire body for hours or days afterward. Limbic instructions to the lower brain centers will cause facial muscles to contract in the configuration of anger..... The entire maneuver is executed with the speed and grace of a ballerina's pirouette. One moment a man is minding his own business -- two seconds later, anger swells, his brow furrows, and his hands start to clench."

Another example: you know when a guy has given you an "interested" look, versus a casual glance. I'm willing to bet you know it at an intuitive level, rather than a rational one. Few of us analyse A Look as being significant because the length of eye contact was two seconds longer than that which is the socially accepted standard for casual eye contact, or because the eyebrows were slightly lifted in an "open" position, or because certain changes in body posture occurred that suggest a level of attentiveness beyond casual -- and we know The Look much faster than all that data processing would take!

The limbic/instinctive brain is acting upon hard-wired protective knowledge, much as animals do. With a little filtering through the thinking neocortex, because we're human. Sure, we can all train ourselves to short-circuit instinctive responses -- anorexics and fasters thwart the basic hunger drive continuously. I imagine it's more difficult to do with a spontaneous response that doesn't occur frequently, like fear. And it can sometimes get a crazy jolt into overdrive, as in irrational phobias, or excessive anger -- and we "rewire" those with therapy.

But you are correct that incorrect information can get "stuck" in our brains. (I'm aiming for The Condensed Version here) Grossly oversimplified, every mental activity involves neurons firing in the brain -- millions every minute. A sensory input enters, and neurons fire in a certain path to record it. "Memory" is created when linkages between that particular input's neurons are strengthened -- those neurons will fire together again on the same pathway in response to the same input in future. The path can be utilized every day, or can lie dormant for years. And it is not a straightforward, simple line -- it's often a mass of interconnected paths. And you can see that problems will arise when the original path was laid down incorrectly, because subsequent identical input will follow the same pattern. Even similar, compatible input will tend to fire off down the path already laid, with the nice strong linkages, rather than forging new territory. Which is how we end up with those patterns of dysfunctional behaviour and thought processes.

Even though we can measure the brain's electrical impulses, and make imaging scans of brain activity, much of this still remains in the realm of theory. So if you're embarking on a learning expedition, sample a variety of theories. You'll discard some as ludicrous, but others will warrant their own neural pathways.....

And there's no smoking in libraries! :D

Hope Miami is WONDERFUL for you!

During the flight I've read an article in "Time" about mind and body. The point there was that mind and body are ONE and that the theories saying differently are proven wrong by science. Author also states that what we call "feelings" are just the chemical reactions.. so, bye, bye illusions about something extraordinary and deep.. all is PHYSICAL...

Interesting point of view... And here I see this great description of human reaction to the external stimuli; one can see that an anger is born as a result of a PHYSICAL process happening in our brain.

There is no choice for me now... LOL.. Have to go get this book and learn what the heck they say about our emotions, what they really are.

What if there really is nothing but the material and physical existence and we believe in non-existing higher level of being?

Thank you, Savannah.. I have to go to another thread where I spotted your opinion I completely dissagree with.. You'll see me ungrateful if I'll opose?

Teli

Don't be disappointed -- the fascinating part of all this, for me, is discovering the abilities and "powers" that we all have within our corporeal selves as untapped resources -- like muscles, just waiting to be flexed.

And never hesitate to oppose me: I came here to learn, and debate is a fertile source of knowledge! I would feel like an intellectual parasite if all I ever did was absorb the collective wisdom here; every now and then I feel like I have to try and give something in return. What is "true" for me isn't necessarily true for anyone else on the planet. :)