YM and children

Hi all,

I'm taking an enormous leap (in my mind) and posting a relationship issue that Dev and I are having. It is an ongoing issue around my kids. I know that Dev loves them, but I cannot abide the way he speaks to them sometimes. He frequently takes on a very, strong authoritative tone of voice and I feel is over-board in his reactions with them. They feel intimidated and unloved when this happens and it sadly happens frequently. I know that Dev's parents parented much differently than I do. I have seen Dev relax his stance on many things over the years, but I am sick and freaking tired of speaking to him about this issue. How often am I speaking to him about this issue? Man I'd say at least once or twice a month... although when I'm really pissed off it feels like everyday.

Every time I talk to him about this (and that should more properly be read like reading him the riot act), he initially responds with denial and outright anger that I am too permissive and that he's NOT speaking to them in any offensive tone. I persist and claim this is irresolvable... pointing to now 4 years of history and I'm still having these "talks". Eventually he becomes quite remorseful... promising to do better... yada yada yada.

Last night we had such a "talk". I really pressed him this time though. I insisted that he prove to me he would "do better" by providing me with a plan that would help ensure he will. He was speechless. I suggested the following:

1) practice a little each day speaking to the kids in front of the mirror. This way he can see his own facial expression and concentrate on his tone to see and hear it for reasonableness.

2) Every time he wants to give a command or an admonishment he say it in his head completely *before* speaking it out loud. Taking an extra moment to review what you say often calms you down.

3) After giving a command or admonishment he can get immediate feedback from the kids to assure both him and them that his message was motivated by love and concern for them/everyone. It is entirely one thing for a kid to hear a command or admonishment from someone they believe loves and cares for them and another if they doubt that. I do believe that the kids often think to themselves that Devon only pretends to love them because he loves me. In other words, they doubt his sincerity and therefore take his commands/admonishments as insults or indications of his distaste for them. This can reassure them that this is not the case. I am asking him to follow-up a message like "Clean up that mess!" with something like "Do you understand that it is the mess I'm frustrated by and not that I'm frustrated by you?"

4) After giving a critical message, follow it up with a positive one. Devon is quick to point out what they can improve on, but sparse about what they are doing well. It is easier to hear messages of a critical nature, when we believe they are motivated by love and concern... and tons harder to hear them when we doubt that.

I truly do believe that Devon loves the kids and wants to do this whole thing "right". I think we differ on what is "right" and despite continuous discussions on what our expectations are... we keep discussing this. I want parenting classes and maybe family therapy. He just wants to me to cut him a break. I feel like cutting him a break... but not the kind he'd want.

Dev is a very good and involved parent in many, many ways. He coached Noah's soccer team. He always tries to get to "yes" when the kids really want to do something. He encourages them to do new things and he never says "no" to catch. He schleps them and their friends to activities and never complains that it's too much or he's too tired. He often volunteers at the schools for things like field day, etc. His being at home with them means that they can do more of the things they like to do. But this being said he often speaks to them like he is a drill sergeant and that he is coming from an assumption that their intent isn't good. I am not sure if that is his actual assumption (sometimes I suspect it is) or if he's just not sure how he's coming across (doubt that since I've been harping on this for freaking years now).

I do know that this stuff is wearing on me. Really, really wearing on me.

I suspect that part of this is the dynamic of a step-family, but I also suspect that part of this is that Devon had ZERO experience with kids prior to mine. I do think there is an age gap issue at play here and I always have.

I feel frustrated, angry, and a bit suspicious. I'm not sure why it is such a difficult thing to speak to the kids respectfully.

Ohhh Marcy....I don't think it's the age gap thing rearing it's ugly head. My X and I were the same age. He spoke to our children the same way. I often talked to him about it saying you bark before you give them the chance to clean up the mess. In other words...he would come in from work and if their rooms were messy, it would be...clean this s*** up. First off, I don't agree to use cuss words like that in dealing with children and second, they hadn't been told the first time to warrant that tone of voice. Yet, when I pointed it out he would say, I wasn't impatient with them. We owned our own business and he spoke to the employees like that occassionally. Why they stayed with us I'll never know. They needed the jobs I guess, I wouldn't have. Our children weren't his employees and I told him so. I think my Mom hit the nail on the head. Some people just know how to parent and others just plain suck. , he basically had none... zero.. parenting skills. He pretty much was at a loss of how to act or to respond to them the majority of the time. Where did the lack of parenting skills come from? His parents. His Dad responded the same way. Yet, if anybody messed with his family he'd go to war with them. I don't think it can be taught. If there is to be peace in your house he needs to take a parenting class or just stay out of the parent role and keep quiet.

I know you are taking a big leap with sharing your family life.

It's not easy when a step dad is added to the family.

The steps that you have described here Marcy makes alot of sense. To see and ear himself first before he says it to the kids.

If he is frustrated about something the kids should know it's not because of them but about him. Maybe sometimes Dev feels powerless in some situations.

Parenting class or family therapy whatever it takes to make things work more smoothly in your home. Outside help could make everybody start on the same page and along the way get some new communication tools.

I agree Charisme... can I/should I schedule it and insist???

And also... I hate to admit this next part... but in full disclosure... I gotta say I'm a little concerned that I'm gonna run into therapists/counselors that point to the age of my hubby and want to concentrate on that :(

Maybe sometimes Dev feels powerless in some situations.

This *IS* true. He sometimes says he feels I immasculate him. I am a *very* strong personality. He always says that in a joking/teasing way... but I think it is true. I know I need to support him more and also TRUST him more. He is certainly deserving of it in some ways... but when we have this issue over and over for so long... I just don't feel I can trust him.

Man it's tough when different parenting styles collide!
My ex-husband was NEVER able to be a good parent. Not with his step-daughter and not with his own daughter. Why? Because he never had a decent role model in his own dad.

If you can get some counseling together or as a family on how to handle daily conflicts more constructively it would be great. As to the "age" thing with the counselors, my advice would be to shop around until you find one who doesn't make that an issue.

Marcy, (hugs)
How about trying having a family meeting or have you, Devon, and one kid at a time talk about how each feels.
Maybe instead of you telling him what is wrong (I agree with you btw) with his way of parenting, he and each child can learn how to communicate with each other. This way he won't, possibly, feel like the "step-parent" who has to do it your way (the right way ;)) and learn how he can be a father to each of them and what hurts them.
Put him in the role to "fix" their hurt feelings.......I bet he might, if he loves them, understand them a little better and not want to hurt their feelings.
Does that make sense....I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet :confused:
Blessings, TD

Well, I think it's a GUY thing. Most men do talk to kids that way. Traditionally, men have always been the disciplinarians, and women have always been the nurturers. I myself make a very poor disciplinarian. I'm way too soft. Remember in the fifties, when the softie mom would throw her hands up and say, "Just wait until your father gets home!" There's a reason for that. Men are less likely to back down when it comes to following through with a punishment. They don't have the heart-wrenching, guilt feelings that we have when we try to do it.

I don't agree that a therapist would focus on your age gap. Mine and Robin's didn't. In fact, she was the opposite, she'd always say, "His age has nothing to do with this!" She did state that both Robin and I had strong personalities, and we were often confrontational with eachother without listening to eachother. She also said that the kids were MY kids and it was solely MY job to discipline them. She said I had to become more consistent as a parent (and she was right).

Devon probably feels powerless when it comes to you and your kids, and it's frustrating for him, especially if he feels they're getting away with murder. I think at this point, you should ask him how he would do things, why he thinks they're underdisciplined, and then follow that up with "I hear you. You think that they're spoiled, they don't do enough around the house, and that I'm not strict enough with them (give an example..."like when I let them off grounding to attend a soccer game.")" Validate his feelings.

Then you can say, "I understand how you feel, and I know you don't think my way is the right way, but you have to understand that these are my kids, and ultimately, the parenting style is my choice and my responsibility. I'm going to do the disciplining so that you don't have to be in that position anymore, and maybe you can focus more on fostering a closer relationship with them. It's hard to try to love kids that in your eyes aren't doing what they should, but we are all a family, and you at least have to try to see things from their perspective and empathize with them. Maybe then you can start to feel closer to them."

He sounds like a good guy who is just really frustrated right now. One of my cleaning customers told me that in order to get her new husband to "bond" with her son, she'd buy movie tickets and shove it at them on a Friday night, like, "Here, I bought these X-Men tickets. You two go, have fun!" :D They'd have to go, because the tickets were already paid for. Her plan worked. Little by little, they bonded, and now her son calls him "Dad" and loves him dearly. It took awhile though. It didn't happen over night.

You know I think part of the problem here is that I really don't *want* Devon to discipline the kids *at ALL*. I really do believe that a step-parent's role is to well... be the nice guy or gal... and just hang back on anything else and let mom/dad handle it. I don't think Devon sees it that way... he doesn't for sure... and this is definately part of it. If that makes any sense...

I am going to make some phone calls on counseling today. Wish me some luck!

I also feel it's more a male/female or difference in parenting issue than age gap. Also, could it possibly be cultural? I'm sorry I can't remember what your husband's ethnic background is, but many cultures believe in child-rearing approaches that are more strict or outwardly authoritarian. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but perhaps through counseling you can find a common ground.

One thing I do think though is that it's great that your husband is at least trying to parent. He may need to learn a few things himself and refine his technique, but he is taking responsibility and that says a lot. It shows he cares. Hopefully, you can work it out.:D

I totally agree with Polly. If you feel that you are at the point that you need some outside help I think you should not waste time.

I don't know but should you tell Dev before you make the phone calls? Just to keep him informed on where you stand on the process so he won't feel left out.

And I hope that you find a good therapist like Polly.

Well I found one and she sounds not at all concerned about Dev's age. We have an appointment for June 30th. I'll be considering carefully and if she's an ageist jerk... well suffice to say... we'll be outta there fast!

Dev's cautiously "okay" with it. I hope it goes well. Thanks!

Oh and Dev's Canadian, but I don't think that is an ethnicity and I don't really think this is a cultural issue. It is debateable whether or not it is age related and it may be gender related... but I need this to change and I'm feeling more desperate to get this addressed.

Man marcy, I been there with my ex. GREAT ideas though!
What tiny says makes sense to..have a family powwow.

Yea a family powwow does sound like a good idea. I think I will have one of those... but since we had battle extraordinare last night... I'm going to let things cool down a bit and shoot for next week!

Marcy, Jeremy & I have the same issues and Jeremy has 2 kids.

It seems like he yells at them all of the time. I try to tell him that it seems like he's scolding them every time he talks to them. That, yes, I scold Jersey, but she also gets hugs & I love you's from me, which the boys don't from him. (They're "too old" for that - but that comes from them, not Jeremy.)

But, he really feels I let them get away with waaaay too much. And I'm sure I do - I feel a lot of guilt from when I was gone so much. He tries to step up for that. We've had a couple arguments where he just threw up his hands and said "Fine! I just won't talk to them at all!" out of frustration.

After a few of these confrontations, he has mellowed a bit and I have seen that I'm at fault, as well.

If Dev were their natural father, you wouldn't be having the same discussion. He'd be able to throw it right back at you and say, "They are my kids too and I have the right to parent how I see fit." But you have all of the power in this situation and you need to decide if Dev is allowed to be a disciplinarian or not. If he is, you need to let him do it the way he feels most comfortable. I just cringed when I read your instructions about talking ito the mirror & stuff. It was like treating him like a child.

I try to think of it like he IS their father. What would I do if it was their Papa acting this way? Now I let him handle it and we discuss things privately - never disagreeing in front of the kids. If I think he's being too hard on them, I'll say so later. But, if he yells, I don't jump all over him all of the time anymore. And I back him up, because kids will quickly play mom and dad off of each other. My kids can get a snotty "you're not my dad" attitude with him, in spite of all of the things he does for him. It's not an enviable position to be in - giving and loving and feeling like you have no respect in return. You have to be "nice" all of the time.

One of the reasons Jersey calls me mommy is because I couldn't take her calling me Kristin anymore. It was soooo obnoxious to me - "Kristin, I'm hungry. Kristin, I want a snack. Kristin..Kristin...Kristin!!" It just softened this feeling of being a personal servant when it was, "Mommy, I'm hungry." (And once I was able to correct her, it became, "Mommy, can I please have something to eat?")

What are the kids doing that is pissing him off? Have you looked at their behavior, as well (just checking.) When Jeremy yells, the kids have YET AGAIN not done their chores, left soda cans around, made a mess, etc. He rarely yells about something that they haven't been told 1000 times already. My concern is that too many instances of his intereactions with them is scolding and not enough positive reinforcement when they are being good.

Guys handle things differently. We women are here to temper them and the fallout. Kids need to learn that there are certain things you can get away with with mom or dad and certain things you can't. It's a part of life. It's a part of learning to deal with different types of personalities and not everyone in the big, bad world is going to coddle you and be sensitive to your feelings, looking in the mirror and practicing what they are going to say and thinking before they say it.

I don't think you need parent classes or therapy. You just need make sure they kids are doing what they are supposed to be doing, so Devon doesn't have any reason to get upset, LOL! It sounds like he does plenty of positive reinforcement otherwise. And, really, it is all about the balance.

And kids really DO understand.

My 14 year old and Jeremy go at it all of the time, it seems. Yet, for Father's Day, the boys got a sweet card that said, "Our wish for you on Father's Day...Father's Day is especially meant for remembering those special people who have made a differnce in our lives. You mean a lot to us, and we'll always be thankful that you're such a special part of our lives. That's why this comes on Father's Day with so much love for you. And my Brennan wrote, "I know I don't always listen and I contantly argue w/ you but you're still my dad and I love you."

We both choked up at that and Jeremy has actually been a lot softer with the boys lately. I think he just needed to know that he was appreciated.

You know, as a step-mom myself I have to say that I DON'T act as disciplinarian at all when Bree is here. Although if she lived with us it might be a bit difficult. If I have a problem I just pass it on to Dad. I think she maybe tends to back off giving me trouble BECAUSE I'm older, but we shall soon see as she is nearing the "horrible teenage years". :eek:

Good luck with the counseling, Marcy! Keep us posted.

You know, as a step-mom myself I have to say that I DON'T act as disciplinarian at all when Bree is here. Although if she lived with us it might be a bit difficult. If I have a problem I just pass it on to Dad. I think she maybe tends to back off giving me trouble BECAUSE I'm older, but we shall soon see as she is nearing the "horrible teenage years". :eek:

Good luck with the counseling, Marcy! Keep us posted.

I was the same way when Jersey lived with her mom. But, with her living with us and with me working out of my home office, I spend more time with Jersey than either of her biological parents do. If I didn't parent her, no one would.

But I only send her to time out or scold her (if it was something harmful she was doing) I never spank - that's up to daddy when he gets home.

You know I think part of the problem here is that I really don't *want* Devon to discipline the kids *at ALL*. I really do believe that a step-parent's role is to well... be the nice guy or gal... and just hang back on anything else and let mom/dad handle it. I don't think Devon sees it that way... he doesn't for sure... and this is definately part of it. If that makes any sense...


Oh wow, ok quick run down on my kids ages before I comment: 15 1/2 year old son, 13 year old daughter, 11 year old daughter, 7 year old son and 2 month old baby girl (fiance's baby).

My fiance is 22 and has never been a parent or have had to parent kids that where not his until mine. It has been definately an uphill battle and a balancing act when it comes to raising my kids with a co-parent that is not their biological father. My kids dad is still in the picture so if I need back up on really BIG issues I get it but for every day to day discipline and back up support, I get that from my Fiance.

I expect him to discipline, he cooks, he cleans, he drives them around, he has fun with them, he worries about them when they get sick..he parents them and part of parenting them is the responsibility of being able to tell them to behave when they act up.

There was a time in the beginning when he didnt know about what I call the 3 warning systems which I use in my house. He told them once then yelled if it didnt get done.


By expecting your Dev, to just be the nice guy/gal and to let mom and dad handle it, youre denying him of his rights as a co-parent, youre basically saying you have all the responsibility that I do with my kids but none of the rights that a real parent does and from everything I have read that he does for your children he is a real parent.

Well Kristin you have brought up some good points.

I have to tell you, being 100% honest about myself and the role I'm playing here, that I would INDEED take their natural father to task for this kind of thing. I have always seen myself as TEH parent... even when it was with their dad. I realize that isn't okay. I have honestly never had either of my ex-husbands say to me well these are my kids and I'll discipline how I want... lol they'd prolly be scared to tell me that as I can be a scary chick in my own right. I am mama bear to the 10th degree and I do know that this is NO DOUBT part of my problem.

Often times, it is something completely stupid that Devon is angry about. For example, the thing that set this off last night was that Lydia spilled her drink on the floor walking back to the table by accident. Now it was an accident. It did not warrent a yelling at. Lydia immediately felt badly about it and was on the floor cleaning it up. I know I sound like one of those... my kids do no wrong mamas, but honestly I have pretty good, respectful kids. When they aren't... I put the foot down. So she's on the floor cleaning it up and he's going on and on about this mess in a very loud, angry tone of voice. My 19 yo says something like sheesh its just an accident... and since I'm already fuming about it... it sets me right off and a big ol' fight ensues.

The fact is that he often speaks to them in that tone of voice for the stupidest stuff and when he's just asking them to do stuff. I personally save that tone for when I am DEMANDING something done... that has been repeatedly ignored... like when I'm asking Devon to speak to my kids as nicely as he speaks to his dog... for example.

By expecting your Dev, to just be the nice guy/gal and to let mom and dad handle it, youre denying him of his rights as a co-parent, youre basically saying you have all the responsibility that I do with my kids but none of the rights that a real parent does and from everything I have read that he does for your children he is a real parent.

This is completely true. You are right. The thing is that I do want him to co-parent and it truly is a matter (much like Kristin's) that Dev spends much more time with them then I do and CERTAINLY more than their Dad who lives several states away. The problem is that his reactions to them are so out of line that I do not *trust* his discipline. Now we don't spank in my home for *anything*, so it isn't that he's physical, its that his tone of voice is way inappropriate for the infraction.

Spilling a drink accidentally doesn't deserve a stern angry lecture. Asking someone to take out the trash doesn't require a tone of voice that indicates you think you are going to get a battle so you need to impart how freaking serious you are... especially if the trash is always taken out upon your request. Every interaction doesn't need to be sprinkled with your power/authority... it definately overshadows the good things you do like driving, coaching, caring, and comforting.

For example, it is a wonderful thing to take a kid out and play ball with them... but if you spend most of your time telling someone all the ways they are doing it badly... it kind of takes the pleasure right out of it.

I just cringed when I read your instructions about talking ito the mirror & stuff. It was like treating him like a child.

Yes you are so right here and I hate this too, but I feel so frustrated and angry about this... and about all my previously failed attempts to address this that I just don't know how to fix this. I frankly do not trust that he's going to do better... because he never does do better... and I really think it is because he doesn't know how. How can I help him know how?

Is he just afraid they're not going to take him seriously, so he goes overboard? Insecurity can make people lash out sometimes.

You're right on that, spilt milk and taking out the trash does not warrant a stern voice. It just sounds as if he's out of patience and needs a break from the kids. I know when I was a stay at home mom there were days where I justed wanted to rip my head off and store it in a box and it could of been a great day when none of the kids fought and everything was done, I just needed a break from them.

I think counseling would do the situation some good, I know that I was a stricter disciplinarian in my 20's than I am in my 30's and that because I had to learn all by myself that I didnt have to be an authoritarian in my parenting in order for my kids to have respect and obedience. Lucky for Dev, you can guide him in that respect.

Dont get me wrong, my word is still LAW, cause Im the Queen d@mn it, Im just not screaming off with their heads anymore. :p

Is he just afraid they're not going to take him seriously, so he goes overboard? Insecurity can make people lash out sometimes.

That's my thought too, Marcy, but you know it is so hard to really know what to say because we aren't there to hear it, you know?

I know that a few times I was on Jeremy for being hard on the kids, I found out later that there was a lot more to it. What I thought was an unreasonable flying off the handle actually had a whole back story which I didn't know about.

It really sounds to me like he is very frustrated about something and it is coming out in all of this getting upset with the kids.

Or maybe he's just at his wits end by the time you get home. I know I am sometimes (see my thread about Jersey being at her mother's, LOL). I envy Jeremy being able to leave the house on a daily basis for 8 hours. By the time he's returned home, I've laots all patience will ALL of the kids, including mine!

I went off on my son once for spilling a drink. My mom got all over me for it. But I had just finished telling him not to over-fill it and to keep it in the kitchen. He overfilled it and spilled it in the living room. Sure, he felt bad, too. But he still hadn't listened to me ONCE AGAIN and I got frustrsted. To my mom, it looked like I was going off over spilled lemonade. But there was a lot more to it.

I just feel like this is more than just the petty things he goes off on - whether it be unseen behavior or just feeling overwhelmed, powerless and underappreciated.

Maybe counciling would be good for any of that to come out.

Often times, it is something completely stupid that Devon is angry about. For example, the thing that set this off last night was that Lydia spilled her drink on the floor walking back to the table by accident. Now it was an accident. It did not warrent a yelling at. Lydia immediately felt badly about it and was on the floor cleaning it up. I know I sound like one of those... my kids do no wrong mamas, but honestly I have pretty good, respectful kids. When they aren't... I put the foot down. So she's on the floor cleaning it up and he's going on and on about this mess in a very loud, angry tone of voice. My 19 yo says something like sheesh its just an accident... and since I'm already fuming about it... it sets me right off and a big ol' fight ensues.


Hi Marcy: I don't have children, but my ex-husband exhibited this kind of behavior towards ME over small accidents/mistakes. Any kind of small mistake and he'd blow his top - it was awful. After much discussion I found out that he reacted the way he did because he was called on the carpet for every mistake he made as a child.....I mean even the stupid kinds of crap most people consider normal kid behavior.

I don't know what the answer is to getting him to be kinder to them, but I can say that if Devon doesn't ease up on them, they are likely to treat their own kids/spouses with the same disrespect.

Is he just afraid they're not going to take him seriously, so he goes overboard? Insecurity can make people lash out sometimes.

Yanno... could be... and maybe also he senses I wouldn't back him up (which I probably AM guilty of) and that is causing it too...

You're right on that, spilt milk and taking out the trash does not warrant a stern voice. It just sounds as if he's out of patience and needs a break from the kids. I know when I was a stay at home mom there were days where I justed wanted to rip my head off and store it in a box and it could of been a great day when none of the kids fought and everything was done, I just needed a break from them.

I think counseling would do the situation some good, I know that I was a stricter disciplinarian in my 20's than I am in my 30's and that because I had to learn all by myself that I didnt have to be an authoritarian in my parenting in order for my kids to have respect and obedience. Lucky for Dev, you can guide him in that respect.

Dont get me wrong, my word is still LAW, cause Im the Queen d@mn it, Im just not screaming off with their heads anymore. :p


LOL you know this is true for me too! (The queen part haha) I am actually stricter now than I was in my 20s, but I let things go easier than I did then and I also don't get as stressed as I did then. I also have a some older kids.

whether it be unseen behavior or just feeling overwhelmed, powerless and underappreciated.

Maybe counciling would be good for any of that to come out.

Yes I really do think this is somewhere between not know how to deal with stress, my lack of trust and inspiration to him, and the whole powerless/overwhelmed/underappreciated thing.

/edited to add: Yes there could be back story, but this happens so freaking much... there just can't always be a back story and in my example from last night... there definately was not anything remotely like the convo you are describing. We were all in the kitchen, on wood floors, she was moving from the counter (where no warning about filling the drink was given) to the table. Didn't mention, but in my mind makes the whole thing worse, she had a little friend over... so I also took umbrage with the notion that having an accident and then being lectured for that is bad enough, but in front of a friend too... is also humiliating.

After much discussion I found out that he reacted the way he did because he was called on the carpet for every mistake he made as a child.....I mean even the stupid kinds of crap most people consider normal kid behavior.

His folks are really wonderful, kind people, but there is NO doubt that they ran a very, very tight ship at their place. I am sure that this kind of interaction was common place in his home growing up.

From everything else I know about you guys Marci, it sounds like you have a pretty good relationship. So my suggestion is to approach this as partners. Hate to beat this VYM thing to death, but Devon was thrust into to role of a step parent at a fairly young age. I would look for some sort of parenting classes that you guys can attend as a couple. That way you don't end up being the bad guy here; he can hear what someone with some credentials says about how you talk to kids. Just a thought.

and maybe also he senses I wouldn't back him up (which I probably AM guilty of) and that is causing it too...

So ask him, "Do you feel that when it comes to disciplining the kids that I support you or do you feel that I always side with the kids and it becomes you against all of us?"

I agree with Kristin too, at the end of day with kids when its just one of those days of constantly saying stop it stop it stop it, lint flying the wrong way can cause you to snap. Kids have a way of acting differently when another parent isnt around and by the time that parent comes home, you're usually ready to blow your top.

From everything else I know about you guys Marci, it sounds like you have a pretty good relationship. So my suggestion is to approach this as partners. Hate to beat this VYM thing to death, but Devon was thrust into to role of a step parent at a fairly young age. I would look for some sort of parenting classes that you guys can attend as a couple. That way you don't end up being the bad guy here; he can hear what someone with some credentials says about how you talk to kids. Just a thought.

Agreed here and so I'm glad to have setup counseling even though Dev's luke warm on it.

By the way, although he's no super fan of AL, he is reading the thread and your responses. I've encouraged him to post here, though I doubt he will.

So ask him, "Do you feel that when it comes to disciplining the kids that I support you or do you feel that I always side with the kids and it becomes you against all of us?"

I agree with Kristin too, at the end of day with kids when its just one of those days of constantly saying stop it stop it stop it, lint flying the wrong way can cause you to snap. Kids have a way of acting differently when another parent isnt around and by the time that parent comes home, you're usually ready to blow your top.

All true! Definately. I will ask him, but I suspect he is going to say that he doesn't feel supported. :(

Marcy, it has to be a step-family thing, and a really common one at that. We have similar issues. :o

A couple things you said I really took notice of, and one was that maybe you didn't really "want" him to discipline the kids, and second maybe he thought you were not going to back him up. I saw myself in those statements.

James is not really a yeller, per se, but his consequences are harsh and, well overboard, I think. I have to say he has come to me multiple times about not backing him up on his decisions, and it's usually because I think they are absurd. We have really different parenting styles.

How long were you a single parent, Marcy? I was a single parent for a long time, and I think part of it is just Im not used to anyone else having any sort of control in that area at all. Plus, personally, like Polly said about herself, I think Im probably a slack parent.

I spent a lot of years "picking my battles" with my kids, and the things that seemed like they really didn't affect things much I didn't discipline over. For example, leaving the TV on? If my kids left the TV on and left the house, next time I saw them I would say "hey, make sure to turn the TV off when you leave". James would say they can't use the TV for a week becaue they left it on. Same with multiple other things...leaving a tool out of the toolbox or leaving a DVD out of the case, or leaving clothes on the bathroom floor. Why sweat the small stuff?

It really has caused some bad feelings beteween us in the past. Part of me just wants to scream...Hey, this is my house, and thats my stuff, and those are MY KIDS..so back off! Not that I would ever do that, because I know thats not right, but I feel that way sometimes.

I've tried to explain to him that they are children, and they aren't going to act like adults. But unfortunately at this point, I guess I have complained so much and backed him up so little, he just really doesn't disclipline my kids much at all any more. Thats not right either, and unfortunately now he thinks his opinion doesn't matter much when it comes to the kids.

Okay I asked him... he says sometimes he feels supported, but that he doesn't really ever feel it is all us against him. I said so do you feel supported overall? I said please do tell me the truth and not what you think I want to hear... he said, I don't know really. Hmmm I think in this instance... I don't know means... I'm not all that supported... thats what I'm thinking at any rate.

Im sure that is how James would feel as well...and I know he feels like if the kids and he have a disagreement, I will take the kids side, although I never actually do it IN FRONT of the kids.

In all honesty, I think in my case the issue is more me than him, and now that I heard another person voice this issue out loud, Im going to call a counselor as well. I don't want him to feel he is not a parent to the children, and his opinion doesn't matter, I would just like to find a parenting approach we can both deal with.

And well, I had 15 years to get used to parenting before James came along, and he just go thrown right into it..parenting 3 children at the age of 18. It takes quite a man to take that kind of responsibility on at that age...I know how frustrating it must be for him sometimes.

So talk to Dev and tell him that you will be more supportive in his role as a co-parent and the the next time and with kids there is always a next time that they act up, allow Dev to lay down the law. Take notice of how when he does this, your kids will take a quick look at you to see if you will step in and just say, do what your step dad says.

That is of course with the understanding that he learns when to pick his battles and that there is a time to bring out the "scary voice" or as my daughter once called it long ago the BEAST voice from Beauty and the Beast.

We've gone through this in our household, and my oldest has even said "he's not my real dad" and Ive said No he isnt but he's the dad that thats here right now, now go do as he says.

We've gone through this in our household, and my oldest has even said "he's not my real dad" and Ive said No he isnt but he's the dad that thats here right now, now go do as he says.

Hmm I like that... "he's that dad thats here right now". I don't ever recall the kids saying he's not my real dad, or maybe they have but not this context like not doing something because he's not the real dad, but I'm gonna use that if it comes up. I like it.

I will make more of an effort to back him up if he's reasonable. The thing is that he's not often reasonable in my opinion.

What an interesting subject, I am in a similar situation also my husband doesn't have any biological children but has been THE father figure since we started dating almost 3 years ago. I was reluctant to hand over any parenting to him, but when we moved in together you just can't expect there to be a silent partner, and I did and we fought over it. I was also like Marcy and didn't want anyone parenting/disciplining my kids only me. My last two relationships which were the fathers of my kids was always a battle I wouldn't allow them to be disciplinary but they also never said like Kristen states, they are my children too and I will raise them how I want to. But my husband has! He loves the kids and he spends more time with them then their fathers ever have. And when I let that guard down and trust me it is and still is hard to keep my mouth shut as I feel he speaks like a drill sergeant sometimes. I cringe and I get mad but I keep it to myself. When I see my 5 year old listen to my husband and is mostly on good behavior and it’s because of my husband. He stays on top of the boys something I never did and it shows. I ask my 5 year old to do something and he will cry and stomp around and whine then my husband asks him and there is no lip whatsoever! It’s amazing.
I know it must be hard to be step parent, I don't know how I would handle it myself. I have never dated a man with kids who actually raised them their selves.
I just wanted to say that I understand this post and how difficult it is. But I think that step parents really have to be able to be part of the discipline if you are living together and raising them together. Especially if they are the ones who spend more time with the kids then the bio parents.
(Didn’t mean to make this post so long!)

Im sure that is how James would feel as well...and I know he feels like if the kids and he have a disagreement, I will take the kids side, although I never actually do it IN FRONT of the kids.

Okay though I'm sure to get reamed here, because I do *know* it is dead wrong, I do actually correct Devon (frequently) in front of the kids.

I disagree very strongly that this is a "guy thing" because I've seen a lot of cases where the mom is the "heavy" and the dad likes to give his kids whatever they want.

However, having said that, my dad WAS like this. It seemed like he was always thinking I needed discipline, and that nothing was ever good enough. I remember once in grade one I told him, "I was the first one done my test, and I only got one wrong!" and he said, "You should have been the second one done and had no questions wrong." He wasn't yelling or whatever, but I think he just felt it was his place to make sure I stayed in line. Unfortunately, what really ended up happening is that I am a person who never feels anything is ever good enough. That's another topic, really. I had a lot of trouble relating to him when I was a kid because it felt like he was disappointed with me.

We get along fine now, and he's not like that anymore at all. Now he's the sweetest guy in the world. But I've seen him around little kids and he goes into that disciplinarian mode.

I have to say though, I don't think he ever would have gotten angry if I had accidentally spilled a drink in the kitchen... that does seem excessive and quite mean, really. People make mistakes, spill things, what have you, and shouldn't be punished for honest mistakes.

I don't have any advice or anything, just that what Marcy said about Devon reminds me of my dad somewhat. Marcy, it sounds like you are doing the right thing, talking to him about it, addressing the issue. :) I'm not a believer that therapy can solve all problems, but it's good that you are looking into alternatives like that.

what an instresting subject, I am in a similar situation also my husband doesn't have any biological children but has been THE father figure since we started dating almost 3 years ago. I was reluctant to hand over any parenting to him, but when we moved in together you just can't expect there to be a silent partner, and i did and we fought over it. I was also like Marcy and didn't want anyone parenting/disiplining my kids only me. My last two relationships which were the fathers of my kids was always a battle I wouldn't allow them to be disciplinarys but they also never said like Kristen states, they are my children too and I will raise them how I want to. But my husband has! He loves the kids and he spends more time with them then their fathers ever have. And when I let that guard down and trust me it is and still is hard to keep my mouth shut as I feel he speaks like a drill seargent sometimes. I cringe and I get mad but I keep it to myself. When I see my 5 year old listen to my husband and is mostly on good behavior and its because of my husband. He stays on top of the boys something I never did and it shows. I ask my 5 year old to do something and he will cry and stomp around and whine then my husband asks him and there is no lip whatsoever! Its amazing.
I know it must be hard to be step parent, I don't know how I would handle it myself. I have never dated a man with kids who actually raised them theirselves.
I just wanted to say that I understand this post and how difficult it is. But I think that step parents really have to be able to be part of the discipline if you are living together and raising them together. Especially if they are the ones who spend more time with the kids then the bio parents.
(didn't mean to make this post so long!)

Don't be sorry... its not that long and I appreciate you sharing. I do want to share the discipline (or okay I'll be honest here... I don't, but I'd be more willing to), but I don't think he's reasonable and so that is my stumbling block. In a nutshell, I want him to change and I'm resistent to changing my patterns unless or until he changes his. I don't want my kids to think it is okay for anyone to talk to them like that unwarrented.

Okay though I'm sure to get reamed here, because I do *know* it is dead wrong, I do actually correct Devon (frequently) in front of the kids.

oh gosh, yeah, nothing that still cant get fixed Marcy but definately something that shouldnt be done.

Always show a united front in front of the kids and never undermine your co-parents authority. Unfortunately I had that problem with my exhusband, who wanted to be the "favorite parent" and never discipline the kids, so the opposite of your situation.

Once a punishment is meted out by a parent, you need to stick to it at least in front of the kids. If its unreasonable talk about it after the kids are gone and youre alone and let the parent who gave out the punishment be the one to change it. For instance youre grounded for two weeks for not turning off the tv, let the punishment stand for a day or two and have that same parent later say " you know, youve been really good, I think Ill cut that punishment down to 3 days instead of 2 weeks." That way the parent doesnt lose face in front of the kids and the parent also learns that you can be lenient without appearing as if your a push over.

oh gosh, yeah, nothing that still cant get fixed Marcy but definately something that shouldnt be done.

Always show a united front in front of the kids and never undermine your co-parents authority. Unfortunately I had that problem with my exhusband, who wanted to be the "favorite parent" and never discipline the kids, so the opposite of your situation.

Once a punishment is meted out by a parent, you need to stick to it at least in front of the kids. If its unreasonable talk about it after the kids are gone and youre alone and let the parent who gave out the punishment be the one to change it. For instance youre grounded for two weeks for not turning off the tv, let the punishment stand for a day or two and have that same parent later say " you know, youve been really good, I think Ill cut that punishment down to 3 days instead of 2 weeks." That way the parent doesnt lose face in front of the kids and the parent also learns that you can be lenient without appearing as if your a push over.

Although you are definately correct and I know I need to change this... and though it is sometimes similar to the example you gave... I would say that is VERY, VERY rare.

It is more usually like this... Dev speaking very harshly to the kids about spilling something on the floor or taking out the trash or w/e it is and me saying to Devon... HEY can you speak nicer to so and so? Is it really necessary to use that tone of voice???? and yea... in front of the kids and done immediately upon hearing that tone of voice...

I'm hesitant to post in this thread...

A. because i dont have kids

B. because i'm going to sound like i'm "taking his side"

And Marcy i think youre a great person AND great mom, but i dont have kids and personally i cant imagine how it would be going into a household with them, and trying to figure out my role...is it a parent role? is it parent role AFTER my spouse says it can be? am i supposed to always worry that the kids "like" me, or am i suppose to discipline them? do i keep my mouth shut and just always back up my partner? what if i disagree??

And even if you think you figure the roles out ahead of time, they always change. (I do know something about it, because my ex-b/f lived with a woman with a son, and told me of their problems.)

Then i see your side, where you love your kids to death, theyre YOUR kids, and youve been a parent to them all along. You dont like them being talked to a certain way...i dont know how bad a way that is, but i know growing up when i did something wrong, i knew by the TONE that i was in trouble. I guess things might have changed nowadays though. We also got a smack, and i know most people disagree with that now!

We all know that people ARE who they are, and they talk and act the way they will. My ex-b/f talked really loud when we were having conversations, and i'd say "dont yell at me." He'd actually laugh and say "you think that was yelling?" It wasnt, to him.

I dont have a solution, but i do know that you two are comitted and in love, and i believe compromise is the key. You know that when you TELL someone what to do, it never works. I believe we always have to put ourselves in the other person's shoes for many of the situations. I hope you get it all worked out soon.

Sounds like Dev is what I call "The Yeller", the thing with a parent that is the yeller is that eventually the kids become immune to it and it stops working. Kids learn to tune out that parent and then he wont have any authority.

Don't be hesitant Jellybean. I'm not the least offended and I also don't think you have to be a parent to have an opinion on parenting.

You make some excellent points. I realize I play a role in this... likely a big one.

Maybe we are looking at this all wrong, maybe he doesnt need counseling so much as just a parenting class. Most of us all started out with a baby and had to learn how to parent, he, iam assuming, just started off with full fledge kids, so its like joining a class and arriving mid semester and being lost.

Maybe you two need to join one of those parenting for pre-teens and teens classes.

Exactly true! He started out with a five year old and a seven year old...

Marcy,

Is he still the primary caregiver for your children? I would presume that he is. I feel this has a great deal of impact on the dynamics of the situation overall. Is he still taking college courses online? That would be difficult for him to be "stuck home" for lack of a better term and have the primary responsibility for the kids on top of that.

I would think that this is your overarching challenge. I'm not going to say how it might make him feel because I don't know. But I certainly wouldn't want to be "stuck home" (for lack of a better term), co-parenting my wife's kids and trying to do my college coursework etc. AND then be told by you that I'm not handling things as I should be. It's tough all around...for him and the kids.

I'm glad you are going to counseling. Maybe they can help turn this situation into a win win for ALL of you. Devon has got to feel like he's losing some in this situation.

Love,
Bub

Maybe we are looking at this all wrong, maybe he doesnt need counseling so much as just a parenting class.

Yes! i think that's a great idea, too.

Marcy,

Is he still the primary caregiver for your children? I would presume that he is. I feel this has a great deal of impact on the dynamics of the situation overall. Is he still taking college courses online? That would be difficult for him to be "stuck home" for lack of a better term and have the primary responsibility for the kids on top of that.

I would think that this is your overarching challenge. I'm not going to say how it might make him feel because I don't know. But I certainly wouldn't want to be "stuck home" (for lack of a better term), co-parenting my wife's kids and trying to do my college coursework etc. AND then be told by you that I'm not handling things as I should be. It's tough all around...for him and the kids.

I'm glad you are going to counseling. Maybe they can help turn this situation into a win win for ALL of you. Devon has got to feel like he's losing some in this situation.

Love,
Bub

Hey Bubs,

Yes Dev is still the primary caretaker during the day, during the week. No he doesn't take clases online anymore. He's been attending classes at OSU since last Fall. It is really important for him to get out of the house and do something for himself with other people, around his age. I was very happy when he finally did transfer and that has been a real fullfilling thing for him too.

Yea I agree this is a bad situation. Trust me, if I weren't at my breaking point, I would have not ever brought it here.

I have to say, it's great that you guys are communicating about this! I'm willing to bet you will get to a point that is acceptable to both of you. Your relationship sounds very strong.

Hey Bubs,

Yes Dev is still the primary caretaker during the day, during the week. No he doesn't take clases online anymore. He's been attending classes at OSU since last Fall. It is really important for him to get out of the house and do something for himself with other people, around his age. I was very happy when he finally did transfer and that has been a real fullfilling thing for him too.

Yea I agree this is a bad situation. Trust me, if I weren't at my breaking point, I would have not ever brought it here.

I'm glad Marcy! I smiled a big smile when I read that Devon is at OSU. Phil takes home responsibilities as well, but he's very busy on campus ... finishing senior year this year. Of course, we have no kids. But we have two elderly dogs that he is the primary caretaker for. That is a big job they ALWAYS have to go to the potty, lol.

Hang in there. You're going to counseling next week. Just don't be surprised at some of the issues he gets out there. Phil's knocked me on my butt a few times (with revelations) of the way he felt about a situation. Men don't always share these things easily.

Love to you all,
Bub

Hey Bubs,

Yes Dev is still the primary caretaker during the day, during the week. No he doesn't take clases online anymore. He's been attending classes at OSU since last Fall. It is really important for him to get out of the house and do something for himself with other people, around his age. I was very happy when he finally did transfer and that has been a real fullfilling thing for him too.

Yea I agree this is a bad situation. Trust me, if I weren't at my breaking point, I would have not ever brought it here.

Man, Im glad he is getting out of the house! That just about drove me crazy when I was a stay at home mom. I think for the most part parenting classes for him so that he can learn how to parent without screaming or using a demeaning tone with the kids and some counseling in regards to the situation between you two on how to learn to co-parent together would be great.

Okay Marcy - with the same disclaimer that I don't have kids and yada, but you know how much I care for you so here goes: Yes, they are your kids, but Devon isn't just your boyfriend, he's your husband and he's a really big part of their lives and for a long time to come and to some degree he and the kids are going to have to craft their own relationship and it's going to be different than the one you and the kids have.

By all means, give Devon feedback and make sure that the kids know they are supported when they feel like there are misfires, but Devon does have to be himself and develop a step-parenting style that feels right and natural for him. Having to rehearse and watch yourself all the time and feel less than and scrutinized is just ..... death. He'll want to get away from feeling like he isn't good at it.

Maybe a part of what needs to happen is some reinforcement that his parenting style is going to be different than yours because he's a different person and that's fine (even if you feel some stress over it from time to time), and your concern here isn't that he do things the same way you do, but that he be fair and honest and clear with the kids on his own terms. And
that part of your job here isn't just to work on Devon but also to talk with the kids about how it can be hard to adjust to new people and new ways of doing things, but Devon wouldn't be with the family if he wasn't wonderful, fun, fair, honest and good and that you trust him totally to do the right thing, even if sometimes he approaches them differently than Mom or Dad would.

Does that make any sense?

I realize Devon probably does have some things to learn, but he does deserve the time to grow into the step-parenting role and the freedom to make some small mistakes without the feeling that everyone is taking inventory. That would be hard.

On the tone of voice stuff: I really would try for some lightness around that. Some people talk loudly when stressed, some get more polite and quieter, that can be a style issue and is hard to change. That may just be the way Devon "is". If you talk to the kids about it, maybe you can develop some family code for "you made devon crazy" or "here comes that voice" or some way to all come to an understanding that is just how he reacts and it isn't so terribly serious. My guess is that the brewing conflict between the two of you, the corrections and the stress (which kids are real sensitive to) is probably harder on the kids than the grouchy tone of voice itself. I know some wonderful people that grew up with terminally grouchy parents they teased for their whole lives, pretty much. Just be careful that the tone of voice stuff doesn't blow up into something more serious about not accepting each other as you are. Because that's the dangerous place for Devon - would be my guess.

Love and Much Hugs
DS

This is Devon posting, i tried to sign up for a new account but it won't let me post yet. Rebecca didnt want me to post on her account because she says everyone just thinks its her posting as me but :P

I want to say first and foremost that I over reacted in this case and was unnecessarily loud and over-bearing.

Now, from my perspective, just to give you an idea what I was thinking. I had just finished cleaning the floors in the kitchen a few hours earlier, which she knew. She poured two drinks for her and her friend, and brought them over to the table when she started to spill on the floor, at which point I said Lydia, please be careful, come on. She said ok, sorry, but then proceded to not pay attention to what she was doing and spill the other glass all over the floor. So it was really that she ignored me that upset me initially. I am sure that at that point I raised my voice, because I felt like I was ignored. I know now that she wasn't purposefully ignoring me, but that she simply could not avoid spilling the second time at that point (the whole incident only lasted about 5 seconds).

What really got me was after I had made these remarks both Rebecca and Alex said to me, take it easy, its an accident. To me, an accident means that no one is to blame, but it was clear that with a little care this could have been avoided. If this were the first time I were being told "Its just an accident" Im sure it wouldnt have bothered me, but I feel like all to often whatever happens involving the kids it always seems to be just an accident, and we absolve them of all responsibility. If someone makes an honest mistake, the should take responsibility and do their best to make amends, or atleast reflect on it and learn from it. I dont think its a good idea to raise a child without making them responsible for their actions. I apologized to Lydia after I had a chance to think about all this and calm down.

Regardless of all that, my response was unwarranted and I certainly jumped the gun, and I know too that I tend to be less easy going compared to my wife, but as a few people have said, It can frustrate me sometimes when it doesn't feel like I am being considered seriously as a co-parent to my step children.

[Edit] I just wanted to say that both Lydia and Noah are really extremely good kids that almost never need disciplining of any kind. I also honestly believe that the situation has improved since the beginning of our relationship. I think I have definitely grown a lot closer to Rebecca's parenting style. I also think that in the course of our relationship Rebecca has tried to support me and my decisions more often.

I had the same problem when I was married to my VYM husband. Part of it was his youth and what he chose to get upset at. Part of it was the way HE WAS DISCIPLINED.

I have read practically every step parenting book in the universe and they all recommend that the bio-parent do all the discipline. The step-parent takes a aunt/uncle approach with the children.

Is it mandatory that he take care of the kids while you work? I would not leave my kids with a care giver that I think has problems in choosing what to get upset able and what to let go.

This is sexist but I don't think A LOT men are good at choosing their battles with kids. My last ex (same age) told my daughter to quite eating so much or she would get even MORE FAT. She was 12. :mad:

Have you and DEV watched "Nanny911" yet? They have great ideas for discipline. Maybe it can help the dialog between you two. It helped my daughter and I to come closer on how to discipline the kids.

Also, thank you for sharing. You are helping not only yourself but others who lurk. :yes:

You know I think part of the problem here is that I really don't *want* Devon to discipline the kids *at ALL*. I really do believe that a step-parent's role is to well... be the nice guy or gal... and just hang back on anything else and let mom/dad handle it. I don't think Devon sees it that way... he doesn't for sure... and this is definately part of it. If that makes any sense...

I am going to make some phone calls on counseling today. Wish me some luck!

Marcy,
First, it was brave of you to be so candid, I know you had to really think about this one. I have a similar issue with my Xhusband as he is VERY different. I have to explain to the kids that everyone is different & everyone is raised differently so his way of disciplining & mine are very opposite. The kids know that his "rougher" way does NOT mean he doesn't love them. I have had to explain & remind them of this several times.

Dev loves you & your kids & I don't think him stepping in to protect you (which is probably how he feels if he sees the kids do something disrespectful or wrong) is a bad thing. Expecting a man who lives with you & shares your life & family to turn a blind eye to your kids behavior would be impossible.

I'd find out what a counselor would say (I'd leave out the age gap if possible because it should have NO bearing). I am sure this is VERY common with step families.

Best of luck & please let us know what advice you get because I am sure many of us will need it also!

Hugs,
Lova

Is it mandatory that he take care of the kids while you work? I would not leave my kids with a care giver that I think has problems in choosing what to get upset able and what to let go.

Well it is not mandatory, but it is how Devon is contributing to our home. Frankly he cannot make sufficient money to cover childcare costs, which is why he stays home with the kids. I don't believe he is a danger to them at all. If I did, believe you me his butt would be out so fast heads would SPIN. There is no doubt that he knows, as well as my kids, that THEY COME FIRST. It is more that he often doesn't respond in a manner that is consistent with what is warrented and when he does that... I'm on him like white on rice.

This is Devon posting, i tried to sign up for a new account but it won't let me post yet. Rebecca didnt want me to post on her account because she says everyone just thinks its her posting as me but :P

I want to say first and foremost that I over reacted in this case and was unnecessarily loud and over-bearing.

Now, from my perspective, just to give you an idea what I was thinking. I had just finished cleaning the floors in the kitchen a few hours earlier, which she knew. She poured two drinks for her and her friend, and brought them over to the table when she started to spill on the floor, at which point I said Lydia, please be careful, come on. She said ok, sorry, but then proceded to not pay attention to what she was doing and spill the other glass all over the floor. So it was really that she ignored me that upset me initially. I am sure that at that point I raised my voice, because I felt like I was ignored. I know now that she wasn't purposefully ignoring me, but that she simply could not avoid spilling the second time at that point (the whole incident only lasted about 5 seconds).

What really got me was after I had made these remarks both Rebecca and Alex said to me, take it easy, its an accident. To me, an accident means that no one is to blame, but it was clear that with a little care this could have been avoided. If this were the first time I were being told "Its just an accident" Im sure it wouldnt have bothered me, but I feel like all to often whatever happens involving the kids it always seems to be just an accident, and we absolve them of all responsibility. If someone makes an honest mistake, the should take responsibility and do their best to make amends, or atleast reflect on it and learn from it. I dont think its a good idea to raise a child without making them responsible for their actions. I apologized to Lydia after I had a chance to think about all this and calm down.

Regardless of all that, my response was unwarranted and I certainly jumped the gun, and I know too that I tend to be less easy going compared to my wife, but as a few people have said, It can frustrate me sometimes when it doesn't feel like I am being considered seriously as a co-parent to my step children.

[Edit] I just wanted to say that both Lydia and Noah are really extremely good kids that almost never need disciplining of any kind. I also honestly believe that the situation has improved since the beginning of our relationship. I think I have definitely grown a lot closer to Rebecca's parenting style.

I too stayed out of this thread, cuz I don't have kids and everyone had pretty much covered things I was going to bring up. But I see this post and wanted to comment on a couple of things.

First, it is really cool that you and Rebecca have the kind of communication to work through even these arguments and stuff and reason with each other instead of each person getting blinders on and not seeing the other person's side. To me, that indicates a really postive relationship, even with it's "battle extrodinaires"....it's couples that can work through these situations with respect and openness that truly are an inspration to everyone else.

Okay...take my advice with a grain of salt, cuz as everyone knows - I don't have kids. But, in any situation, if I got pissy about something, even over-reacted, I would definitely get even more defensive if I had two other people pointing it out in an argumentaitve way. I guess that's stating the obvious, but it is how arguments start... :p So, if I had been Devon, snapping at Lydia, I would not have been able to constructively see that I had over-reacted with 2 people snapping back at me. But that's what is likely to happen, so I guess I would just accept that the argument was on...and would have to be rationalized and discussed calmly later.


But, like Devon, I am pretty good about coming back and saying, "yea, I over-reacted and I would like to change how I handle things like this and anything we can figure out to help us both I am willing to do and work on." And I have to do that more often than some people, b/c I am pretty high strung and weird in my habits and what annoys me. I'm moody too to top it off! :p I am working on learning how to relax, and be a little more easy going...but different parenting styles could definitely put a strain on any good relationship.

I DO think Devon should feel like a co-parent....however that needs to happen (which might be difficult if Rebecca sees herself as "the" parent....giving up any control when it comes to your kids can be REALLY hard, but if you trust and love Devon, he would be the one who you could feel the safest doing that with). And I DO think counseling would be an awesome way to have a third party give some tips and help you both feel good about some arrangement that makes both people feel safe and worthy. I am not a counselor, but the only thing I was thinking is that it is never good to have the kids see their parents argue about how to discipline them, escpeically a step parent, who already has to work on being validated with their step children. I don't know the best way to handle it when something like this happens...maybe a "look" would be enough to let both people know the situaution was not comfortable for one or the other parent and then the parent who wasn't happy could hold their tongue and the parent who was over-reacting could see it was time to cool it. Then the "discussion" could happen later, when the kids weren't around. Maybe that is unrealistic. I am not sure. If the kids didn't see Devon getting corrected all the time for how he is parenting, but did slowly see changes in his parenting style, it might validate his place even further.

Okay, I've rambled on enough....especially for someone who doesn't know jack sht about ANY kind of parenting ! :p

in regards to Devon's post:

Nothing and I mean NOTHING makes a person fly off the handle quicker than just having cleaned something only to have a mess a few hours later due to carelessness or disregard. In your step daughters case I think it was more careless than on purpose.

It suxs but it wont be the first time and it wont be the last and I would be lying if I said that I didnt get some evil pleasure out of putting a dirty glass in the sink right after my son has finished the dishes.Yes thats right how do you like it now! (evil laugh).

Seriously though, I hear the It was an accident excuse too, I usually respond with yeah accidentally on purpose maybe. If she cleaned it up afterwards, as i believe Marcy said she did then she made amends but you are right children need to held resposible for their actions but its hard to punish when youre not sure if it was an accident or not, in this case cleaning it up herself was enough.

How old your kids anyways? Marcy? Dev?

The kids are 8 and 10... I also have 2 adult kids that are 19 and 20. The 19 yo is home from college for the summer (The "Alex" that Dev referred to in his post).

I am definately seeing my role in this and getting the message that maybe the way I can help here is by holding my tongue. Man oh man that is HARD to do.

I am going to seriously have to work on that... but I would say it would help me do it if Dev could work a lot harder on speaking to the kids in a nicer tone of voice.

It's hard...

I have thought about this one today, and before answering had to ask myself what I could offer both of you...

From my guys perspective I was the parent, and what I said was law...however, if he had my children they were expected to mind him and behave accordingly.

Most of this was trust in myself that the man I had chosen as my partner was smart enough, wise enough and loving enough to help raise my children.

I also had to remember I had 9 months before each of these children were born to read, watch and dream their lives. I saw their first steps, helped them to learn how to drink from a cup and could recite every illness they had ever had.

He was meeting them when they were 9 and 4.

So, we both needed growing room. He was smart enough to watch how I handled them, and I was cautious enough to make sure I told him my rules of the road.

It has not always been easy. I can say I learned to step back.

I will not question him on his tactic in front of the kids. And there were times I very much disagreed on one or two occasions. However, we talked about in private.

NOW..........

This is only if you feel your kids are not being harmed. If there is a time when you feel what is being said or done is in any way harmful, you have to remember you are their mother and they are YOUR responsibility, no matter what the pastor said when you slipped a ring on your finger.

And I am not just saying this to you, but to all of us.

We teach our children by example and being a doormat for our partners behavior whether it be in the discipline in the house or in our interpersonal relationships does not teach the skills we want our children using when they go out into the world.

So, Marcy I think the counseling is an awesome idea. And thank you both for having the guts to come on here and speak about so personal a situation. I also think both of you need to understand that it takes two to tango in the parenting dance floor.

And teaching him all the things you got to learn about your children gradually over years while he has had to endure a crash course is not a negative thing. It's just common sense.

And respecting that you love a man you can trust with your children may help you get over some of your fears.

Hunny, he is reading this. Listening, typing back... Super Special man you have there.

So, I will quit rambling. LOL

Sigh... I had a theme when I started this...Bah... lost it somewhere in there...:eek:

-F

Well, as I don't have kids or any parenting experience, I cannot add much here, other than to extend some cyber hugs to both of you, Marcy and Dev.

I can appreciate a bit that it makes you feel a bit in the binds because there seem to be issues of personalities, perception, different grades of experiences, but also some other undercurrents.

I don't have kids, but I have cats - and in all fairness, I gotta say that I get really pissy if others (including my b/f) don't treat my cats exactly the way I think is right (food-wise, outdoors etc.). But then I am some sort of control freak and just think I know best and every one else is just noob ;)

This works in our relationship because my b/f is very laid back and totally pampers my cats, but if he didn't, he would be in trouble with me ... This is not fair but it's just an area of limited compromise for me; it's just something I am distinctively not tolerant about ...

So, part of finding a solution might be to really find out, why you don't REALLY want Devon to be a disciplinarian in your family. Doesn't have to be anything sinister, but if there are strong preferences, I think suppressing them just leads to frustration... :(

As to what style of parenting would be appropriate, I wouldn't have any clue, as my experiences with children are bordering at the non-existent ;)

I'm going to reply to this from a different angle and hope that I can make the connection clear (notice I said, hope ~lol~)

Marcy, I think you have employees who you supervise their work, as do I. When a new employee starts, it nearly drives me to the brink of insanity that they don't do the work the same way I would tackle it. I am aware that it would serve no purpose to say to them, "don't do it the way it is comfortable for you, you have to do it my way" - that would be one sure way to increase the stress level of the new employee. I understand there is a 'learning curve' ... all of us have been new to a job at one time or another. In every case each employee needed motivated in a different way. So as they are learning their job, I keep my mouth shut on how they approach the work. I want them to feel that they can bring their personal style of working to the company. Because truthfully getting the end result of what I need is the important thing to me.

I have had to call employees in to discuss their 'end result' work. We cover one specific topic, however I never let them leave my office without talking to them about things that I appreciate very much about their work.

In no situation would I ever talk to an employee around their co-workers.

Ok, so I know we are not talking about employees here. I know you are speaking about a far more personal issue with your children and Devon.

Sometimes I notice that I speak more respectfully to my employees then I do to my husband. (not a nice thing to do - I feel ashamed when I become aware of it) For me it helps to remember that he deserves the most respect from me.

My husband walked into a situation with two young adults that were still living at home. My son was 20, my daughter was 17. There were plenty of things I didn't like about how he interacted with them. Yet, just like a new employee, I allowed him to bring his own style in. He and the kids (almost adults) forged their own relationship. Of course it is different then the relationship I have with my children.

So maybe after you have talked to Devon in private about a given situation, you could let him know as well all the things you feel he does right as a step-parent.

Devon, always try to catch each child doing something right every day. Don't be phony about it, cuz kids can smell that a mile away. If you look (and not saying that you haven't) it is pretty easy to find the right time to tell them. Michael, my husband, has said things to my daughter like, "wow, I am impressed at how easy it is for you to be there for your friends." To my son, "it is good to see you relaxing and enjoying life." (my son is very goal driven, looking so far into his future that he forgets to see today.)

If I don't make a lick of sense, I didn't get my message across as well as I hoped. ~lol~

My daughter and her husband (stepdad) sit down together to talk to Olivia almost age 5. They sat down in advance and say okay if the child does this..this is the punishment and so on. If both parents (even if he is the step dad) are butting heads..kids pick up on this and sometimes FEED off of it to get what they want. Sometimes they love to play the HEAD game and pit the parents. Oh it has happened a few times LOL lil buggers!

I think you BOTH need to sit down together and work out a disipline plan. If a child does do something they should be held accountable for their actions and be responsible for it.

When a new man is in the lives of a child..yes it takes time to woek him into the role of disapline..and moms hav a hard time saying WHOA buddy you did not have these kids with me ..hard to let that thought go when you been in control for a long time.

Hi, I have been a member for about a year and a half, but I do not post very often. I felt like I would add my two cents since I have just recently spent 3 weeks with my step-daughter (age 10, I am 24) and it has been very difficult at times for me.

I am also in a YW/OM so it may be a little different view since in this case the younger partner is a woman. I have no kids of my own, and we also were international LDR ; I moved from Spain to the US roughly 5 months ago.

My husband and his daughter had been living together on their own for some time; when his tour ended he had to move and the daughter stayed with her mom. I never got to meet her until after we married and she was out of school and could come here on vacation.

A kid is a kid and acts like one, I understand a 10 year old is going to be somewhat careless, and not pay as much attention as an older person would. To me it made it more understandable yet not less annoying. I could not help but getting annoyed at the feet all over my new car, the 'I'm bored', the countless things typical from a child. I know part of this annoyance is that she is not my own daughter, and part is not having kids of my own, heck not even younger siblings.

I told my husband before she came that I understood she was his daughter and it was up to him deciding what she could or could not eat and things like that, but this was OUR house and not THEIR house anymore, so THIS house had different rules than the ones she knew and probably associated with her dad. I am no neat freak so they were things like no feet on my new car seats, toys back in the bag after playing or dirty clothes in the hamper and not the floor (we have darks, white and color so I told her in case of doubt put it in the color one and I'd go through it), she was pretty good at all these 'new'things. :)

I see a huge difference though between a step-parent on duty 365 days a year and a 'holiday' step-parent. You are a family now, issues like education or raising issues are imo up to the parent to deal with and for the step-parent to play a support role unless told the opposite or unless those decisions affect directly the step-parent (i.e. paying for college for the kids with shared income). Household issues should be treated as a family and in my opinion he has all the right in the world to call them on the things that they do not do or do when they should not :D

About the tone he should be using...I refrained myself from reprimending my step-daughter directly. I told my husband and he told her. I would call my husband to talk separetely and after a while (so she would not associate scolding and daddy's wife) he would tell her in a calm way what she had done. He did it 'his way' when it was something that bothered him and not me. If she lived under our roof though I'd feel I have the right to tell her myself not to do this or that. But then it would be her coming to our house not me coming to theirs (I think it is easier fitting a step-kid in the parent and partner's life than it is to introduce a new spouse into an already made family with their own rules prior to the new spouse)

I felt extremely confused about living with my husbands daughter for three weeks. She was supposed to be MY family now, but it did not feel like it and it made me feel awful. I wonder if it ever would if we had to live together. I guess it is normal to be more objective with someone you do not have parent-kind-feelings for than with your own kids, hence why I also think it is easier for a step-parent to lose their patience than for a parent.

There is a difference between 'My daughter spilled the glass for the 99th time' and 'Your daughter did it'.

I am not sure what I mean to say...just that step-parenting is confusing, oftimes difficult and sometimes you have to play the parent, but others you do not have a right to open your mouth, and well...setting the limit is not easy.

Finally I want to bring up something that seems important to me, especially in relationships where young partners deal with step-kids very close in age. Our partners expect from us to be adults, behave like that and being responsible house-wise, but the kids are kids. I personally do not believe being 19 or 23 makes such a difference maturity-wise when it comes to house issues.

I guess when you do not want your partner to be part of your kids raising, then it does not make sense for them to be the nice step-parent either. I mean, if I am not going to be allowed to tell my step-daughter what she does wrong and she is living in my house, then do not expect me to do all the laundry, clean what she stains and have a smile on my face, because it is not happening. And that is to me the difference between a family and mere cohabitation.

I am just saying this because the problem is not only how he talks to your kids but what role he is playing in their lives.

I hope you guys find the right solution and I hope you do not mind my contribution to the thread as it was only my opinion and my own feelings about step-parenthood (if that's a word :p)

Meh I just read the post and it sounds messy and extremely LONG, sorry :(

Thanks everyone for your posts. It really is helpful to us both and we each read all of them. They gave both of us lots to think about and I have to admit... I was surprised. I was surprised that the advice I got was so darned good, not that I think the advice given here isn't good, but I've been sort of holding back my own issues for fear of being harshly judged... and that did NOT happen. I feel supported! So thank you all for that right off the bat :). I know that Devon also felt really comforted reading these posts. Lots of folks could appreciate how he feels, even though I haven't really been able to. It has really given me pause about my role here.

We (mostly me) are looking forward to counseling next week and we'll update you about it. This is a give and take... no doubt. Dev needs trust and support and understanding. I need to know that my trust is well founded and that the boundries that are important to me are also important to him.

This is not a new relationship. He is not a new step-parent. Over 2 years in our marriage and over 4 years in our relationship, I expected to see more progress here, but I am reassured that this is important to him and that maybe I just haven't done all I can to move this in the right direction.

I'm not sure what the case is with Devon, Marcy, but with Tim, I think it's at least in part, a cultural thing. This is actually probably one of the only areas where we truly clash culturally. I understand that the general parenting styles are different. However, these are my children and the ball is already rolling in the direction I intend for it to go.

Sometimes I feel bad because I know it's hard for Tim but, especially having already raised kids who've become pretty neat adults so I know my parenting style works and that it works very well. Thankfully, most of the time, he respects my knowledge and is often willing to watch and learn.

The trick is in giving him leadership without letting things get (what seems to me to be) out of hand. But *shrugs* you know how it is. There's always something to work through in any marriage and I just figure this is one of those things for us. :o

You know I think part of the problem here is that I really don't *want* Devon to discipline the kids *at ALL*. I really do believe that a step-parent's role is to well... be the nice guy or gal... and just hang back on anything else and let mom/dad handle it. I don't think Devon sees it that way... he doesn't for sure... and this is definately part of it. If that makes any sense...


I just stumbled across this thread, and I think this is the crux of the matter, right here. And though in a perfect world, you'd be there everytime the kids needed disciplining, in the read world, that ain't necessarily so. I dated a man who had an 11 year old son. In this case, I was responsible for getting him up and ready as well as taking care of him after school when his dad worked. His dad was very mellow, and discipline was non-existent. As a result, the kid walked all over me. Never in his dad's presence, but he would swear, ignore, be sullen, general nasty pre-adolescent behaviour. I would go to his dad and his dad would "talk" to him, but of course it didn't change anything. I had no authority at all, I wasn't the kid's mother, and his dad was a pushover. It was a mess. I started getting really mad about it, and it became a huge bone of contention. The kid of course, knew he had me over a barrel. I would think to myself, I'm just a daycare, without any discipline procedures, and no pay. It got to the point where I became hyper-vigilant of his behaviour and any slights directed towards me, and he would just smirk. His father didn't ground, and I knew that if I did it wouldn't hold. It was hell, for all of us.

Marcy, if you don't want him to parent, then he shouldn't be in situations where it's required. If it's necessary that he take care of the kids when you aren't around, then he HAS to be allowed some autonomy. Right now even if you don't discuss it in front of them, the kids know. They suck that stuff up like nothing. Both of you have to stand firm, TOGETHER, and work through your issues in private. So, if Devon gets frustrated and handles it in a way you wouldn't, it still has to hold. It would be a good idea, therefore, to discuss what punishments fit what offenses prior to them being committed. Devon, you need to let Marcy know what you consider to be a yelling offense, a grounding offense, a go-to-your-room offense, or whatever the method of discipline is in your home. Both of you need to realize that one thing may work for one kid, but not another, and Marcy, you can assist Devon on learning this. I'm a yeller with Emma. She gets stuck in these ruts and simply will not listen unless I speak very loudly and clearly to her. With Wynne if I was to yell she would collapse into tears, so I just tell her what needs to be corrected. If she continues to repeat the behaviour, then I speak louder, to get the point across that her repeating this is really not a good idea. But repetition is just a parenting thing, unfortunately.

So yes, consistency, absolutely, but consistency for each child rather than as a whole. Marcy, if you were to wash the floor and have one of the kids spill on it, then blithely spill again without cleaning it up, what would your reaction be? I'd probably ask them to clean up the floor, and when it happened again, I would ask her if perhaps she'd like to take the mop and clean that spot up again, seeing as how soda makes things incredibly sticky. And, to be honest, I'm not sure I wouldn't yell either.

You also didn't mention whether you're a yeller. If you are, well then, it would be impossible for Devon not to be. If you're not, then I can totally understand how it would bother you when he does, however, being a yeller myself, I can totally commiserate with him.

Devon, another thing that really works well in my home is humor. Again, depending on the kid. Emma responds to it amazingly well. Gentle teasing, like, darling, do you think you could clean up your room? I just saw a creature created entirely from your dirty clothing trying to escape. Or, do you think you guys could replace the toilet paper spindle once you use it up? I wouldn't complain only I was stuck there til you came home from school the other day and ran out of reading material at about 1. It works surprisingly well...they laugh, but they do it. Annoyance turned into light sarcasm works a lot better, I've noticed. Even older kids love things turned into a game, and that's sort of what this is. Thus the yelling gets saved for when it's really necessary, and it will be listened to much faster.

Just some suggestions. Sorry for the length :)

I don't believe he is a danger to them at all.Errr... Marcy? Where did I say he was a danger to them? Your over reaction to what I stated has me totally puzzled. No way do I believe he is a danger to your children!

I will say again... I would not leave my kids with a care giver that I think has problems in choosing what to get upset about and what to let go.

Would you leave your kids at a day care that handled children the way he does? If not, then why do you leave them in this situation?

You are saying that HIS salary does not cover childcare. I don't think his salary should cover child care. I think the two incomes together should.

I have been EXACTLY where you are right now. EXACTLY.

After relieving my YM of doing the full time child care, things changed dramatically for the better. Unless Devin wants to be a Nanny for the rest of his life, I think he would enjoy the kids more as a part time step father and get fulfillment from his chosen field.

Of course, this advise can be worth what you pay for it. :p I think Devin will find the therapist a great support. They usually understand the difficulties of step parenting. I wish you both the best. :)

You know I think part of the problem here is that I really don't *want* Devon to discipline the kids *at ALL*. I really do believe that a step-parent's role is to well... be the nice guy or gal... and just hang back on anything else and let mom/dad handle it. I don't think Devon sees it that way... he doesn't for sure... and this is definately part of it. If that makes any sense...

I am going to make some phone calls on counseling today. Wish me some luck!

Sorry Marcy, but, please remind me of the age of your kids.

I am afraid that if you do not let Devon discipline your children they are going to lose respect. Remember that whatever you are going through now will be magnified in puberty and Devon has to be seen as a figure of authority same as you are.

Try to strike a balance about what Devon considers unacceptable behavior and what you consider unacceptable punishment. Reach an agreement between you two. Draft family rules on actions and consequences, make a list and post it in the kitchen. This pretty much borrowed from Nanny 911.

Also remind your children often about the good things Devon does for them that many parents do not do, so they feel grateful.

Errr... Marcy? Where did I say he was a danger to them? Your over reaction to what I stated has me totally puzzled. No way do I believe he is a danger to your children!

I will say again... I would not leave my kids with a care giver that I think has problems in choosing what to get upset about and what to let go.

Would you leave your kids at a day care that handled children the way he does? If not, then why do you leave them in this situation?

You are saying that HIS salary does not cover childcare. I don't think his salary should cover child care. I think the two incomes together should.

I have been EXACTLY where you are right now. EXACTLY.

After relieving my YM of doing the full time child care, things changed dramatically for the better. Unless Devin wants to be a Nanny for the rest of his life, I think he would enjoy the kids more as a part time step father and get fulfillment from his chosen field.

Of course, this advise can be worth what you pay for it. :p I think Devin will find the therapist a great support. They usually understand the difficulties of step parenting. I wish you both the best. :)

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you thought he was a danger at all. I meant to say that I wouldn't leave the kids with him if I thought he was a danger and that I don't think he is one... and that this was the standard I was using to determine whether or not this was a reasonable option for us. I hope that helps because it wasn't my intention at all to offend you, so I hope I haven't. I didn't think you were out of line at all and I didn't feel upset when I responded. I was just attempting to give you the standard that I was using.

Yes you are right... together we could afford it, but our household would be worse off financially than it is right now and that is why we aren't doing it. It sounds simple, but I am also putting 3 people (including Devon) through University right now. Our standard of living would be affected by having the kids in daycare too. It would be easier on Dev, no doubt about it, and perhaps easier on the kids too (but only in some ways). We have discussed this option all of us several times and it has never passed the family as desirable. You are also right that I would definately fire a caregiver that was so disrespectful and demanding with my children. Information I have often shared with Devon freely.

The reason we have not chosen to put the kids in childcare is mostly because the net expense would negatively impact our family financially. However, there is another reason, neither Devon nor the kids want to do that. From the kids perspectives, they don't want to go to childcare because they are enjoying the freedom that being at home can provide them. Devon is reading here and has responded once yesterday under my ID. Hopefully he'll have his new ID available today and come share with us why he wants to stay at home.

I don't think he envisions doing this for the rest of his life, but I think he does envision doing this for 2 more years while he is a fulltime student. Coincidentally, Noah at least will need this kind of care for 2 more years as well. By the end of that period, both Devon and Noah will be ready to move onto the next phase of their lives... and I am sooooo done with the baby thing. ;)

I agree that ultimately this may have to be the decision we make though if no improvements can be made. 4 years is a long time to wait for these improvements...

Oh! I forgot to mention - Marcy, I don't know if this would work for you and Devon but here's what Tim and I do: I do let Tim be the "disciplinarian." I use the term loosely because I'm not militant but I do think it's important for the kids to see him as an authority figure. He knows how I do it and he knows which things are important to me. And he knows that when he's starting to cross the line into discipline that I don't agree with, it's time to hand the reigns over to me. Most of the time this works for us. Once in a great while, we have fireworks, he and I.

I'm not there 24/7 and the kids need to know that they answer to him when I'm unavailable. I agree with Celtish - in a perfect world, my kids would just follow the rules because they know my rules and because he's a nice guy that they dont want to let down. But in real life - at least in our house - it doesn't work that way.

Sooo... first thing's first: Tim and I try to lead by example. Which, I think, is effective about 70% of the time. 20% of the time, I've got to be the heavy. And about 10% of the time, Tim's the one they answer to.

We had some of the same struggles you and Devon mentioned. Part of it, like I said before, I think is cultural - we coddle our kids much more than parents do in most other cultures I've seen (I'm not saying it's right or wrong; it just is what it is). Part of it (this is a generalization) is a "guy thing." And part of it is purely due to experience. Our husbands are pretty much beginners trying to plunk out "Heart and Soul," while we're over here with our years and years of bonding and experience, playing Mozart as if it were nothing.

Wait - did I say, we "had" some of the same struggles? Change that to "have." But it's okay. I just decided that it's part of the whole experience of us binding together as a family. Some bits of that are easier than others. I just figured that this is one of the "not so easy" parts.

But yes, like some of the other ladies with years and years of experience have mentioned, I too think it's important for Devon to be seen as an authority figure in your kids' lives.

Sorry Marcy, but, please remind me of the age of your kids.

I am afraid that if you do not let Devon discipline your children they are going to lose respect. Remember that whatever you are going through now will be magnified in puberty and Devon has to be seen as a figure of authority same as you are.

Try to strike a balance about what Devon considers unacceptable behavior and what you consider unacceptable punishment. Reach an agreement between you two. Draft family rules on actions and consequences, make a list and post it in the kitchen. This pretty much borrowed from Nanny 911.

Also remind your children often about the good things Devon does for them that many parents do not do, so they feel grateful.

Hi Sheila,
The kids are 8 and 10. I do remind the kids of the good things Devon does for them, but likely not often enough. I do back him up, but again, likely not often enough.

In my mind, and I think Dev's too... but he can clarify in a response post himself, this is not a matter of us feeling differently about punishments and the kids breaking the established rules. We *do* have rules and the kids *do* know them. We also happen to have pretty good kids that rarely break any rules. It is more a matter of Devon responding to them kindly and respectfully in all instances.

He can be asking them to do something or he can be instructing them on the rules of a game we're about to play or he can be advising on how to hold the bat before hitting and use a very authoritarian, harsh tone... the same tone I would use if the kids had *really* pissed me off... and I don't like it. He doesn't like being yelled at by me for it. I really believe that this tone of voice should be used in instances where you *really* need to impart your disapproval, but not when you don't... because it *does* impart your disapproval... and I don't think that is ultimately what Dev wants them to hear... but of course they *do* hear that.

I do get that he is under stress and that anyone under stress can snap... me too. So to get to Celtish's question... am I a yeller? Yes I can be a yeller... but it is a pretty rare situation that gets me yelling... lol frankly this situation with Devon has me yelling the most and its at him. The problem is not that the kids are screwing up and he's yelling at them and I want him to pat them on the heads (though I fully admit that even if that *were* the situation I wouldn't want him yelling at them and that I have a problem there), but it is actually a problem that he often yells at them to in everyday speech in conversation. He takes that tone at times that are unnecessary and inappropriate. It isn't necessary to ask someone to take out the trash in that tone, unless they have ignored you the first time or several times, but I often hear it used the FIRST time.

These are good kids that hardly ever break the rules. They are rarely disrespectful to either Devon and almost NEVER to me. I believe that Devon would agree with that. If they are disrespectful to him, I try to be on that right away and set them straight. However, it breaks my heart to hear my 8 yr old complain that Devon speaks more nicely to the DOG than to him. This should not be and I want it to stop.

Hi Kel and thanks... yes I agree that since reading a lot of the posts here I realize that it is important that I back Devon up with the kids... stop correcting him in front of the kids... and generally learn to grit my teeth and bear it a bit more.

This is such a terribly hard thing for me to do. I'm betting you understand that and that you *all* do understand that. I love my children. I know you guys all love yours too.

I don't want to undermine him, but I want him to be kindly toward them at the same time. I feel like it would be easier for me to stop undermining him, if I saw that he was more kindly in his tone with them. He doesn't need to be rainbows and puppies... he could just be as nice to them as he is to the freaking dog or to me.

See that is part of the issue for me, Dev *never, ever, ever* speaks to me in that tone of voice... it is solely reserved for communications with my kids and mostly (though occassionally properly used) at unnecessary times. If Devon spoke to me like that consistently, I guarentee that it would eat away at my love and respect for him as a partner (it is already eating away at my feelings about him as a parent). Therefore, how can he inspire love and respect from the kids? He has love and respect from them, but he is definately harming their relationship with this model of communication.

Devon, another thing that really works well in my home is humor. Again, depending on the kid. Emma responds to it amazingly well. Gentle teasing, like, darling, do you think you could clean up your room? I just saw a creature created entirely from your dirty clothing trying to escape. Or, do you think you guys could replace the toilet paper spindle once you use it up? I wouldn't complain only I was stuck there til you came home from school the other day and ran out of reading material at about 1. It works surprisingly well...they laugh, but they do it. Annoyance turned into light sarcasm works a lot better, I've noticed. Even older kids love things turned into a game, and that's sort of what this is. Thus the yelling gets saved for when it's really necessary, and it will be listened to much faster.

Just some suggestions. Sorry for the length :)

Loved this advice...

You know, Marcy, the more I read here, the more I think something else is going on with Devon and the way he communicates to the kids is just kind of how it gets out there. I say that because my ex has a very similar style with our youngest daughter who is now 21 years old.

Part of the reason that my ex and I got divorced, after 35 years, is that he could never ever let go of his job stresses. He changed jobs multiple times, we moved three or four places around the country in search of his perfect career, and here he is 3+ years after our separation and divorce and he's still searching for that perfect role AND miserably unhappy.

N was almost always short with our daughter. If she didn't take the trash out he'd yell because HE had to think about it and reminder her and she should just automatically do it, etc. He'd get frustrated teaching her a game, or showing her how to hit a softball. A male friend of mine taught her how to drive 5 years ago, because he just didn't have the patience or temperament to do it. Now he was absolutely amazing with both our daughters when they were infants, babies and toddlers. He'd do feedings, change diapers, sit and read to them, play on the floor with them for hours. But once they got a mind of their own, somehow he just couldn't figure out how to set boundaries, reward good behavior, discourage bad, all those things that are involved with raising children. It was almost like when they had a mind of their own, they should be better plugged into how HE was feeling and understand that he just washed the floor and they messed it up, etc. He would talk our youngest either in a bad tone, or take a martyr approach, "nobody cares about me" as she grew older. And for us, unfortunately, several rounds of counseling didn't help anybody.

So I guess what I'm saying in a roundabout way, is that sometimes folks have internal struggles and frustrations that can to come out when they are doing other things whether they enjoy doing them or not. I know it happened all the time with my ex. ALL THE TIME for many, many years. He's a good man, but to live with him was just something else. He was never violent or abusive, never called the kids names, never laid a hand on them in anger. But he was obviously unhappy with alot of things but could never figure out how to sort things for himself so that it didn't reflect on his relationship with his wife and family. Our 21 year old still lives with him and the two of them barely speak. Every now and then he'll call me and rant how she doesn't tell him anything. And every time I tell him, well you need to learn how to communicate, and you should get some help and there is dead silence on the other end of the line.

Devon is far younger than my ex husband. I hope that he can sort through the feelings he has about everything in his life and you can ALL reach a place where you consistently enjoy family life together. It's not impossible but it does talke alot of work on everybody's parts.

Does this make any sense to you?

Yes it does... I haven't thought of it, but it does. He is under a lot of stress, no doubt about it.

I'm glad we are seeing a counselor next week.

I realize that it is important that I back Devon up with the kids... stop correcting him in front of the kids... and generally learn to grit my teeth and bear it a bit more.

This is such a terribly hard thing for me to do. I'm betting you understand that and that you *all* do understand that. I love my children.

I don't want to undermine him, but I want him to be kindly toward them at the same time.

how can he inspire love and respect from the kids? He has love and respect from them, but he is definately harming their relationship with this model of communication.

I totally, totally get it. And you're right - it IS hard to do! I think, in this area more than any other, I feel like the teacher with my husband as the student.

Heh. Sometimes I'll let the fallout happen (as long as it's not earth shatteringly bad) which usually results in my 12 year old stomping off angrily and tearily with nothing really resolved (which upsets Tim greatly) and then wait for him to calm down before I say, "Hm. Well, that certainly went well. Did you meet your objective?"

I think part of it is a trust issue for the kids. They're okay with me blowing a gasket once in a blue moon because I am the only adult in their lives who has always, always been there for them and they know, without a shadow of a doubt, that I'll always do everything I can to support them, encourage them, and teach them how to become the amazing adults I know they can be.

That trust is earned, not automatically given. And when Devon takes a tone that's downright frightening, he's shooting himself in the foot. Give him time and keep at it - you know he loves those kids and, eventually, I truly believe that he will get it.

See that is part of the issue for me, Dev *never, ever, ever* speaks to me in that tone of voice... it is solely reserved for communications with my kids and mostly (though occassionally properly used) at unnecessary times. If Devon spoke to me like that consi