Social situations

Well, since I got so much help on my "boy toy" question (thank you) ~ I have another one.

This is really hard to phrase right, but I'll try. My YM does not seem to know how to sit at a table properly. He kinda slouches over the table and just shovels the food in (shovels might be a bit of an exaggeration). He doesn't do "table" talk ~ he just eats.

I have never really noticed it before, but last night my sister and her husband came over for dinner and I couldn't help noticing the way he eats with others around.

I don't want to hurt his feelings; any suggestions on how I can tactfully explain to him what I mean? I don't want to come off sounding "motherly," but geez, didn't his parents teach him common table manners? He comes from a good family and all.

Sorry if this sounds petty; I don't mean it to, it is just that we will be going to quite a few social dinners in the future.

Help, please!

Its definately not petty and I've even read a similar thread here before, but I can't recall who it was that had this issue. I do recall that they got wonderful advice and so I'm certain you will too. I'm going to try to find the thread and give you a link. Anyone else remember this one???!?!?

Thanks, Marcy ~ and thank you for not making me feel shallow!

Chris

It's not petty, and something like that can be a relationship killer.

David has great table manners, but his social skills pretty well sucked. His parents are pretty reclusive people, never have guests, etc.

We still sometimes will rehearse how to act, like, on job interviews, and meeting people for the first time. Just the simple walking up to someone with your hand extended for a handshake and introducing yourself is hard for him.

When I brought it up, I really tried not to do it motherly. What I said was, I think with your parents, you missed learning how to act in social settings, and that's something really important if you don't want to be like them, and live in a box watching TV for the rest of your life. I told him I'd be glad to work with him on it, if he'd like, and basically left it at that. To this day, before we go somewhere, or he has a job interview, or whatever, he'll come to me and say something like "Honey, I wonder what would be the best way for me to do this", and we'll do a little dry run. He's very different than me, I could talk to a tree stump, he's more introverted, so we have to tweak it.

You could maybe start by saying, that when he rushes eating, you find yourself trying to keep up, and it gives you a stomach ache. That you digest better when you can take your time, and maybe have some social time with your meal. Ask if he'd mind making meals more of a together time, and less just eating.

It always works best when you approach someone's behaviour without making it an accusation, and pointing out how they can help you with your problem.

By the way, it's almost become a code with us, in our attempt for me not to mother him and for him to be able to ask for help, that "I wonder what would be the best way to......"

It's not petty, and something like that can be a relationship killer.

David has great table manners, but his social skills pretty well sucked. His parents are pretty reclusive people, never have guests, etc.

We still sometimes will rehearse how to act, like, on job interviews, and meeting people for the first time. Just the simple walking up to someone with your hand extended for a handshake and introducing yourself is hard for him.

When I brought it up, I really tried not to do it motherly. What I said was, I think with your parents, you missed learning how to act in social settings, and that's something really important if you don't want to be like them, and live in a box watching TV for the rest of your life. I told him I'd be glad to work with him on it, if he'd like, and basically left it at that. To this day, before we go somewhere, or he has a job interview, or whatever, he'll come to me and say something like "Honey, I wonder what would be the best way for me to do this", and we'll do a little dry run. He's very different than me, I could talk to a tree stump, he's more introverted, so we have to tweak it.

You could maybe start by saying, that when he rushes eating, you find yourself trying to keep up, and it gives you a stomach ache. That you digest better when you can take your time, and maybe have some social time with your meal. Ask if he'd mind making meals more of a together time, and less just eating.

It always works best when you approach someone's behaviour without making it an accusation, and pointing out how they can help you with your problem.

By the way, it's almost become a code with us, in our attempt for me not to mother him and for him to be able to ask for help, that "I wonder what would be the best way to......"


Bella I lve your advice on this. I was going to add. why the rush baby..I love it when you eat really slow, it makes me think about how you love to enjoy things *wink*:tongue2:

It's not petty, and something like that can be a relationship killer.

Totally!!!

I agree with Bella. You don't need to be motherly but do definitely speak up; for some people, it really is simply a matter of not being aware of what they look like.

I was not raised in a family with perfect etiquette, however I did work in several 5 star restuarants & I learned some valuable dining tips. What I have had to do with several boyfriends is tactfully talk about what I learned growing up while working in these places. I usually say something like "Did you know that when you are finished eating you are supposed to place your utensils across the top of your plate?" This is usually the ice breaker to get into the nitty gritty about elbows, napkins, talking with food in mouth etc...

It doesn't come across as mothering just educating! Good luck.

I don't think that it's "motherly" to teach or ask him to eat in a more civilized fashion in a formal situation. I forgot what movie I watched recently where someone correctly guessed that someone else had been in prison by the way he shielded his plate with one arm and shoveled the food down. Then there are all those My Fair Lady makeover theme movies and tv shows.

At my house, when we are by ourselves, our manners are very casual, but if we are with company or eating out, our eating mannerisms greatly improve. Maybe you could start by offering to take him to restaurant for his birthday or some other occasion, but lightheartedly say that he'll need to spiff up a little and act less like a caveman? And it's okay to be a slob in private, but an important social skill to know how to do it right.

What does your YM do for work? Another aspect to this is the people that are more presentable get the promotions and raises. My YM refuses to get any job that would require him to wear a suit and tie, however he loves getting dressed up for special occasions.

My boyfriend's manners have improved a thousand percent since we began dating. I think its because we have gone to some very nice places and he's such a good observer. Like Bella, I find him asking questions before we go out. I try hard to keep my advice to a minimum, because I know that too much advice can be demeaning as well as overwhelming. The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter much whether one sets an elbow on the table or uses their dinner fork on the salad, unless you are in really insufferable company, and I wouldn't subject him to people who were so shallow as to place much value on table manners!

I don't think this is necessarily an age issue, but a gender difference. Men, overall, CAN tend to be less delicate than females and things like socio-economic differences, family upbringing, cultural differences can come into play.

Please don't take this as me minimizing your concerns, but personally, unless the guy is belching and being otherwise disgusting, I'm not one to care if he isn't exactly David Niven in his table manners. Also, I have found that many men are completely focused on eating the food during a meal and until they are done, are not interested in chatting or anything else--and I don't have a problem with that. If his table manners are THAT bad that I feel I have to give him unsolicited lessons on how to eat a meal in public, then I don't think I'd be dating him in the first place.

However, you are not me, so I feel that if it is important to you, then your concerns are absolutely valid. My suggestion would be that you consider using humor to give him a gentle hint about it. Say something like, "You certainly are focused when you eat a meal...." Say it in a casual, fun way, as if you think he's amusing and see how he responds. This way...you can get a sense of whether he will welcome some tips on his table manners. And this way, you will not sound like his mother or a schoolteacher. I would avoid phrases like: "I don't mean to be critical...." or "I hope you don't mind a bit of advice..."

I actually did this with my Ex-BF and he laughed. He also confessed that the wife of a good friend once criticized him for his table manners. BTW, his table manners was not the reason for our break-up.;)

Killer or laugh fest? I think the humor suggestion was right on target. But think about it first, is this something you really want to make an issue? If you are uncomfortable around your ym's table manners, or any other kinds of manners, you might actually ask yourself what is really in your own mind!

Ali

IAlso, I have found that many men are completely focused on eating the food during a meal and until they are done, are not interested in chatting or anything else--and I don't have a problem with that.

That would be multi-tasking, of course we don't like it!

I'm actually like that, I don't talk much but I don't think it's bad manners, I think I have really good manners when it comes to eating, hopefully! It's a bit like talking about a TV programme whilst watching it, I don't like doing it. I need to concentrate.

And if I'm eating in front of the TV and you expect me to talk too... I'm likely to explode. :p

I do have a friend who used to talk incessantly whilst eating, and he'd always end up having to reheat his meal. lol

For some reason Joel has the bad habit of serving himself meat only parts of a dinner and the other part later (like sauce and meat and then when he is done with that he may take potatoes and sauce later). Because he moved all the way from the USA to Norway I can tell him that I know that doing that may be totally normal in America but here in Norway that is considered rude.
He also almost never eats with a knife.. he uses the side if his fork to cut with and that is also something you don't do here. He doesn't see the need to make more dirty dishes than necessary...

But the worst WAS his drinking habits, if we went over to a friend and had a glass of wine he would drink the glass as it was water after running a marathon. :o:o:o

We had big debates about that where he tried to tell me that he was thirsy or thet he only did drink in order to get drunk...

Teh other day we had some glasses of red wine at home and then he pointed out that I was the one that was drinking the fastest now :P

It's a bit like talking about a TV programme whilst watching it, I don't like doing it. I need to concentrate.


Chris does this ALL the time!!! It drives me batty... We'll be watching something and he'll either start barraging me with questions (that the show was probably answering while he was asking) or start going off on how stupid something was... all while I'm trying to *listen*!

I'm always like, "Babe, if you just listen maybe we can talk about it during a commercial break..."

He often has great questions or makes great points, but yes... sometimes I feel like my head might explode!

For some reason Joel has the bad habit of serving himself meat only parts of a dinner and the other part later (like sauce and meat and then when he is done with that he may take potatoes and sauce later). Because he moved all the way from the USA to Norway I can tell him that I know that doing that may be totally normal in America but here in Norway that is considered rude.

Hmmm? I'm Norwegian, and I've never heard of anyone saying that having only parts of a dinner at the time is rude. My dad used to do this all the time, and people just thought it was funny :tongue2:

He also almost never eats with a knife.. he uses the side if his fork to cut with and that is also something you don't do here. He doesn't see the need to make more dirty dishes than necessary...

Hehe, I recognized my OM in what you write there! He hardly ever uses a knife! I found it really weird to begin with, and still do sort of. It just looks soooo impractical, takes him longer to finish meals because of it. Sometimes I've said: Please, can you you at least TRY to use the knife as well? :rolleyes:
Appearently, during WW2 one way Germans could expose American spies was watching them eat: Since most Americans used only the fork to eat with, they would cut the meat on their plate in little pieces before starting to eat it, which the Germans did not of course.

In my case, although his table manners were not the best either, his language drove me crazy!
I am no girl scout myself and can have a little bit of a "potty mouth" but with Griff, every other word out of his mouth, was F this F-ing that.
It didn't matter where, who, or what the subject was or who was around:o
I tried asking him to stop and some days he would try but most others he would say, "this is me and this is how I talk, get off my case!"
In the last few years I just gave up and wouldn't bring him with me if I thought that they would find his language offensive. For instance, my students, boss, parents, sister, etc...
Thank God I don't have to worry about that issue anymore :)
Blessings, TD

My fiance doesnt talk when he eats. He was raised an only child with a single mom and apparently dinner conversation wasnt something he was ever around. I wonder if a lot of the 20 somethings are daycare kids? And if so then it would make sense that they dont talk when having dinner because children in daycare and in schools arent allowed to have conversations. He is still the first one to finish eating but now at least he sits and tries to talk after he eats. Eating with as a family with jokes and "how was your day" conversation was not something that he was used to.

He also doesnt know how to hold a fork properly.

You people are wayyyy to nice, I usually say "hey captain caveman, who are you going to stab with your fork?" lol then he goes " I just hold the fork like that." He is trying though.

In my case, although his table manners were not the best either, his language drove me crazy!
I am no girl scout myself and can have a little bit of a "potty mouth" but with Griff, every other word out of his mouth, was F this F-ing that.
It didn't matter where, who, or what the subject was or who was around:o
I tried asking him to stop and some days he would try but most others he would say, "this is me and this is how I talk, get off my case!"
In the last few years I just gave up and wouldn't bring him with me if I thought that they would find his language offensive. For instance, my students, boss, parents, sister, etc...
Thank God I don't have to worry about that issue anymore :)
Blessings, TD

Haha!....I can certainly relate to this myself. I rarely swear and my Ex-BF swears like a sailor! M-ther F---ing, Son of a Wh-re...was one of his favorite phrases. But he has some other "choice" phrases as well. (Particularly when he has computer problems!) And it's kind of funny because he's tall, BIG, and many people find him very intimidating. And I'm only 5'4" and on the petite side...and don't swear, but he never dared swear at ME or raise his voice to me because I set him straight on that one from day one. Table manners is one thing, but I don't accept verbal or physical abuse or harassment of any kind from anyone. That's one issue I don't hesitate a split second to advise a man on.:no:

during WW2 one way Germans could expose American spies was watching them eat: Since most Americans used only the fork to eat with, they would cut the meat on their plate in little pieces before starting to eat it, which the Germans did not of course.

LOL, maybe that is typical in certain parts of the US, but I cant imagine cutting my food with a fork....or cutting it all up at once. I also break pieces of my bread off and butter it as I go, piece by piece, never the whole thing.
Then again, My mother was a table manners nazi and we were taught very early on the do's and dont's.

I am the slowest eater. It drives my family insane. I think the fastest I have ever finished a meal is 45 minutes and only because my kids are saying hurry up, Mom.


Funny story about my former husband. I am a night person and like to get up later. He was always early to bed, early to rise. He was installing a new storm door on the house. I guess it wasn't going smoothly. When I got up, I asked my 3 1/2 year old son, "did, daddy get the door on." He looked straight at me and nodding his head up and down said, "uh huh, daddy got the c@ck sucking door on."

Mind you it was not funny at the time. And I told his father don't ever speak like that around the kids again.

Editing: I guess I should clarify that my former husband does not normally cuss. As a first time parent, I guess he did not realize how much those 'little ears' pick up on.

Darn you Daisy! ;)

splutter splutter BEVERAGE ALERT !!!





off to find napkins to clean the monitor.....AGAIN

My hubby has had to learn Japanese etiquette...which he does wholeheartedly with a lot of respect and consideration.

Sora

Hmmm? I'm Norwegian, and I've never heard of anyone saying that having only parts of a dinner at the time is rude. My dad used to do this all the time, and people just thought it was funny :tongue2:


LoL.. maybe it's my family that is stange then :P

I think it can be an issue definitely, if the manners are "caveman" bad. I remember when I first met my YM we went out for Italian food at a nice restaurant, he ordered pizza and started eating it with his hands - and because it was a thin, delicate pizza (not Pizza Hut style) it began to fall apart and there was food everywhere. It made me cringe, to be honest. But he commented on how thin it was and I said, "maybe if you cut it up a bit and used a knife and fork it would be easier to eat?". The next time we went back to that restaurant we were with my parents and he ate his pizza perfectly :D

His table manners were quite bad when we first met but to be honest he's quite observant and has picked up on things and I haven't needed to say anything, he's a lot better now.

Socially he still struggles though, much like Bella's David - he doesn't really know how to act in a lot of situations and is still trying to get a job as he finds the interviews so hard. I've encouraged him to step slowly outside his comfort zone though and he's joined the local voluntary ambulance service and also is doing two voluntary jobs, so he's trying really hard. I do feel that I help him by being a sounding board for his questions and issues, but never do I feel like I am mothering him.

Incidentally I also think Bella's approach is perfect, and that's what I would tend to try in your situation.

I don't think that it's "motherly" to teach or ask him to eat in a more civilized fashion in a formal situation.

It IS motherly in my opinion, because you are performing a basic parental function. His own parents either didn't teach him or he failed to heed their lessons. There's nothing WRONG with acting motherly in my opinion. Sometimes it's needed.

[...]

Maybe you could start by offering to take him to restaurant for his birthday or some other occasion, but lightheartedly say that he'll need to spiff up a little and act less like a caveman? And it's okay to be a slob in private, but an important social skill to know how to do it right....

You're absolutely right, of course. I'm puzzled by how the relationship got this far though. Speaking as a male, if I were single and dated a girl who routinely talked while she chewed food, for example, that would be a hint to me to move on. I once had a female co-worker who did that and it was gross.

LOL I am not about to re-train a mate in how to act lady-like.

The ONE exception would be if she was a foreigner and from a culture where that was considered normal. Otherwise, I'd find it too scary.

Hmmm? I'm Norwegian, and I've never heard of anyone saying that having only parts of a dinner at the time is rude. My dad used to do this all the time, and people just thought it was funny :tongue2:

LOL - for the record, it's usually recognized as funny/odd behaviour here in the states, too. I'm also guilty of the "one food at a time" thing. I've no idea when or why I started doing this but I've been this way for as long as I can remember!

Oh! And it's definitely not a YM thing (did I already say this?) My ex - five years older than I am - has the embarrassing habit of eating with his mouth open and smacking his lips. Yuck!

Tim, thankfully, has wonderful table manners. He says that, in general, in England, they're taught to have good etiquette at a young age. We *used* to do that here in the states (at least, where I lived) but not so much these days!

I remember when I first met my YM we went out for Italian food at a nice restaurant, he ordered pizza and started eating it with his hands - and because it was a thin, delicate pizza (not Pizza Hut style) it began to fall apart and there was food everywhere. It made me cringe, to be honest.

LOL!! Now I have to comment because pizza is a meal that was invented to be eaten with the hands! Here in America, nobody would have looked twice if your YM had done that :bgrin2:

LOL, maybe that is typical in certain parts of the US, but I cant imagine cutting my food with a fork....or cutting it all up at once. I also break pieces of my bread off and butter it as I go, piece by piece, never the whole thing.
Then again, My mother was a table manners nazi and we were taught very early on the do's and dont's.

Im the same way, I cut all my entree first into bite size pieces as well as breaking my bread into smaller pieces. My fiance thought I was weird for doing that lol. I really dont have much to complain about when it comes to table manner besides the holding fork thing. The table conversation is coming along. Im the manners Nazi with my kids, I always tell them that manners and knowing how to eat properly is very important since it shows how you were raised.

Yeah I agree with MS. H, eating pizza is done with your hands at least in the States it is...I have seen people eat pizza with their fork and knife but it gave me a giggle because it looked really pretentious to me.

Besides jokingly commenting on his hold on the fork, I really dont tell him how to act or correct his language except to tell him to not turn the air blue around the kids which he doesnt unless he slips up.

I expect him to be grown and Im not going to finish raising him for his mom, I have 5 kids to raise already lol! I dont need one more. Besides his mom did a great job and if he needs any growing in other areas he can learn by example.

Well, thank you all for your help. We are having dinner tonight with an older couple who are neighbors of mine...we will just see how it goes. I care so much about him that I doubt that it will matter much one way or the other... This late in life I am learning (finally) to me more accepting and less critical.

My mama taught me how to eat the English way. I should always have my knife in my right hand and my fork in the left. The fork should always have the prongs pointing downwards. Hard way to learn to eat peas and corn...lol

Then as I grew older I noticed others did not eat as I did....I adapted to American etiquitte, holding the fork in the right hand, but changing hands when I would cut my meat, with the knife in the right hand, fork in left. Then placing the knife at the right side of the plate, switch hands, then eat with the fork in the right hand again.

I have come around somewhat, to cutting my food into small pieces and then using only my fork when I'm in a not-so-fancy restaurant, as one would when eating a bowl of salad, but in someone's house or out for a special meal, I retain the knife in my right hand and my fork in my left...but in this country, it feels a bit proper to do.

Oh and I can't stand to see someone chew with their mouth open, or talk with their mouth full......that is so gross...reminds me of a cow...OMG, smacking of the lips, that's just unacceptable.....and I can't stand to see a grown person hold their fork like its a weapon that their going to use to stab someone with........

Yes, I'm strange......if my date did not have decent table etiquitte or dating etiquitte on the first date.....then that would have been the last date....:D

sora

My mama taught me how to eat the English way. I should always have my knife in my right hand and my fork in the left. The fork should always have the prongs pointing downwards. Hard way to learn to eat peas and corn...lol

Then as I grew older I noticed others did not eat as I did....I adapted to American etiquitte, holding the fork in the right hand, but changing hands when I would cut my meat, with the knife in the right hand, fork in left. Then placing the knife at the right side of the plate, switch hands, then eat with the fork in the right hand again.

You reminded me of something. Last week, at Donna's parents, we were eating and they thought the way I hold my knife and fork is really weird because I hold my knife in the right hand and fork in the left and eat just like that. We had a whole conversation about it! I thought that was really, really weird... that they thought it was weird I mean. lol.

Oh and I can't stand to see someone chew with their mouth open, or talk with their mouth full......that is so gross...reminds me of a cow...OMG, smacking of the lips, that's just unacceptable.....

I agree with you, I think it's terrible. I don't WANT to see that or hear that sound, and who does. And it's SO easy to not do it. Just close your mouth!

You reminded me of something. Last week, at Donna's parents, we were eating and they thought the way I hold my knife and fork is really weird because I hold my knife in the right hand and fork in the left and eat just like that. We had a whole conversation about it! I thought that was really, really weird... that they thought it was weird I mean. lol.


I've experienced this as well. I think it's a European vs. an American way of doing it. Both my OM and his kids have commented on that I hold the fork in my left hand and the knife in my right. Similarly, my family(in Norway) thought it was weird that my OM holds the fork in his right hand and hardly uses the knife, when he does it's in his left hand.:tongue2:

For me there is only one way to hold a knife and fork when you are eating out or in company of people that you don't normally dine with ;)
http://www.his.com/~bmanerly/jen1.gif

I also find it very important that you sit with good posture.. nothing looks worse than people that slouch, also the elbows should never be up on the table, and what's even worse is people that lean on their elbows while they eat...

I guess I'mma nitpicker when it comes to stuff like this, but it just drives me crazy that grown-ups (and kids, for that matter) haven't learned good manners!

For me there is only one way to hold a knife and fork when you are eating out or in company of people that you don't normally dine with ;)
http://www.his.com/~bmanerly/jen1.gif

I also find it very important that you sit with good posture.. nothing looks worse than people that slouch, also the elbows should never be up on the table, and what's even worse is people that lean on their elbows while they eat...

I guess I'mma nitpicker when it comes to stuff like this, but it just drives me crazy that grown-ups (and kids, for that matter) haven't learned good manners!

Well, it's not the only way. Your picture is more the European etiquette. Americans hold their eating utensils differently. Either way is technically proper. I just like the European way, it just feels so formal. lol

I'm just like you, I am very nitpicky about table etiquette. Just because you weren't taught as a child perhaps, is no excuse for an adult not to learn on their own!

sora