New member

Well, to be honest, I found this place when looking for support; I'll go ahead and give my brief story, and if anyone can help me, I'd be most gracious.

In short, I turn 19 on Friday, and my darling is 37; we've been in love since last June, and we still haven't met (on-line relationship); plans have been made and broken, made and broken, and it's hurting for both of us; initially, the plan was for me to go to school here for a year (Missouri), visiting her when I went to NYC to "check out schools" (my goal is to transfer to NYU after a year elsewhere; she lives in New Jersey). That fell through when there were transcript problems between the Missouri University and my two former high schools. The next plan was for me to apply to college in NJ, and move up and live with her while attending; I got accepted to Bloomfield college less than a week before classes were to begin.

Now, through all of this, my parents were aware of my college plans, but not my relationship; they confronted me about the college attendance on such short notice, and convincingly discussed the financial issues speaking for my deferring admission until the Fall. During this, I told my father that I had a girlfriend I was planning to live with. This changed things, considerably; now, he would stand by me to move with her after we got things settled, after a month, though my mother would be less than ecstatic. (On an aside, I've already lived away from home for two years; in a dormitory at a two year early entry program to college). And, my real reason for not leaving at this time wasn't my parents or the finances, but my two younger brothers (15 and 13), who I've sometimes been something of a parent toward; I couldn't just up and leave them like that.

In the following two weeks, my mother would sometimes ask a series of questions about Caroline, and I felt as if I had to answer them relatively rapidly, else it'd seem as if I were lying. To the age question, I quickly answered 27, and I told her that she'd never been married (she's divorced), as I thought a marriage would make the 27 look more circumspect.

Note that I am not a very comfortable liar, and these lies hurt me more than keeping the truth hidden. I don't believe they suspected otherwise, but it still made me worry sometimes, when trying to sleep.

Now, my father was willing to support me previously, as he thought Caroline was 23 (I had said she had graduated from college), but now was more iffy, and eventually I had to decide on a moving date, with my and Caroline's feelings to think of, and I was sincerely worried about leaving my mother (she hadn't taken any of this very well at all, and started a medication to help her anxiety and sleeplessness). I ended up having to decide on leaving in early June, and visiting Caroline for a week in March. The same week she takes off the week of March 24th, my mother finds a hidden stash of conversations I hadn't passworded in my partition of the family computer (she was looking for music she downloaded; the music when to my drive); one of which was from the Friday that everything had initially come to a head, and it had Caroline's real age and divorce mentioned in it; a couple others were some cyber-sex sessions Caroline and I had had. Needless to say, not good.

Now my parents want me to meet with a religious counselor, to help me decide what's good and wrong, etc.; I know he'll disagree with the 'fornication'; (we've also used webcams), and her not being a Christian (I've not really been one for years, myself, although I believe I am now), but I can find absolutely nothing speaking against an older woman, younger man relationship.

Right now, I don't know if I will be able to visit her in March or not, although I want to, and I don't know when I will move out there (although I have full intentions of attending Bloomfield, and have told my parents such).

If anyone can help me with my parents, with justification for an OW/YM relationship, or even anything I might be able to say or do to help out Caroline (we've both been a bit depressed during this), I would be most appreciative.

The only thing I'm certain of anymore, is my love for Caroline.

I think another aside is necessary; neither of us have before been involved in an OW/YM, and she's never really been attracted to younger men at all (in fact, we didn't even send each other pics until we were already close friends); we initially got on a one to one speaking basis through emails awhile back when I was a little depressed (I might be bipolar or SAD; leaning toward SAD right now, though bipolar possible); we 'knew' each other from a web forum we were both on, a fan site for a series of books we both enjoy. It was from those daily emails, that we looked forward to more than anything that initially we became close friends, and eventually fell in love (we also started talking on the phone, and then our weekend 'sessions').

Again, thanks in advance for any words offered.

Since you made no mention, I'm assuming neither of your parents have communicated with Caroline? That's something that will have to happen at some point before they are likely to become accepting of the relationship...not to say that you need to go and get them talking to each other right away....but, the longer the relationship goes on without them actually getting to know her, and at least hear her side, the more they'll be likely to think that she's trying to take advantage of their child. While agegap relationships are looked upon curiously by a lot of people, it's moreso the case when the younger person is as young as you are, barely out into the real world yet, and already straying from the college 'gameplan'. You do have to show your parents that you are serious about setting a plan for your education and sticking to it, and don't go rushing into anything else, you know, like ideas of the "m" word...if it's meant to be, there will be plenty of time for that later on.....

Yes, I didn't mention that; I got my parents (primarily my mother) and Caroline to speak to each other through emails, but when my mother found out her real age... the ensuing week was rather difficult, with the arguing between my two parents and she. She tried staying calm initially, but I don't believe the calm lasted amidst the ensuing onslaught (she forwarded all emails to me). And yes, my mother believes just that, that she's trying to take me away from my parents, etc. My father is sticking by his self-righteous 'it's wrong.'

And my not being at college right now is more due to circumstances than anyone's fault; my parents aren't blaming that on anyone right now. I've already been clear that I have full intentions of attending this fall, and Caroline is very intent on my continuing my education (she may check into the forum today, I mentioned it to her when I found it this morn).

Thanks.

you should ask your father why it's "wrong" exactly. where is the moral foundation for such accusations?

i had a confrontation with a YMs grandmother once where she was in near hysterics about how "wrong" it was for her grandson to be with a woman 10yrs older. when he confronted her that her own husband was nearly 20yrs her senior she said "that's different, that's ok." she said this with a straight face too, i was there. :)

with the exception of The Golden Rule (discussed in another thread), i personally see all morals as being totally subjective to the culture they're in. it used to be ok to burn females at the stake for being supposed witches in order to lay claim to their estates, how right is that? everything is subjective to it's place in history, geography, and politics. it was considered right to keep slaves at one place and time, and in some cultures/religions it's still "wrong" to use birth control!

my question is why is it wrong? and why doesn't anybody in your family seem to care about anything that matters? like, are they in love? do they give each other comfort and support? or god forbid, might they be really, truely happy together? why do all these things fall short of a shallow bellow of "it's just wrong!" with no substance to back it up?

if they were ok with a 23 or 27yr old (if a bit hesitant), obviously their little boy growing up and moving out isn't of the uptmost concern. i agree with jordan's post, that's often the case, but it seems like in this situation they really are just outright bigoted towards the age gap. try and find out why, and i bet you'll find there's no reason at all. it's a programmed response and they can be untaught it, with effort, hopefully. :)

-j

PS: the elusive 11th commandment: "Thou shalt not date older women!" riiiiight.

Warning bells go off for me when I read things like your mother having to take anti-anxiety medication because of "your situation" -- this an extreme overreaction on her part. Shacking up with an older woman is hardly life-threatening; what on earth is she so anxious about? Parental concern for a relationship that is somewhat outside the "norm" for 19 year olds is to be expected; she seems to have far too much of an emotional investment in YOUR life.

I would say, agree to the counseling, but not with someone with any religious/church connections -- find an accredited family therapist. Your parents need to learn how to let go, and allow you your own emotional risks. It's a little odd that they demonstrate this overprotective behaviour with you, yet you say you did a lot of parenting for your younger brothers -- are you the only one who experiences this sort of suffocating control?

I'm assuming that you need their financial support for college (and thus some approval of your plans), otherwise the simplest solution is to allow them to voice their concerns, and continue with your intentions. After all, you are a legal adult.

(And I'd be interested to hear the religious view of whether or not webcam activity constitutes "fornication"; I always thought it would require actual physical contact, but maybe the church has expanded its definition to encompass modern technology!)

I might hold out completely replying until tomorrow morning (have to be off-line to wait for a call about a job), but I want to thank you all for replying.

As to the religious counseling, I've already agreed to it, and I do know the counselor from when I was younger (he used to be a youth pastor at my former church); I trust him a bit, and for being a conservative Baptist, he's rather open-minded. Within the religion I can find nothing, absolutely nothing, speaking against an age gap relationship.

As to my personal thoughts regarding marriage, my parents and the pastor don't know them yet (I know he'll disagree with them); marriage to me isn't something that must be accepted by the church or the state; in fact, I could easily do without ceremony. Marriage to me is contained completely within the vows of love, of sanctity, and those vows are between those involved alone. I fully intend to give all of myself to my darling; she is the woman I have saved myself for, and the woman I want to give myself to. Love should be between two people, and should not be dictated by the church or the state.

Anyway, thanks for listening. Both of us feel much better knowing we aren't alone.

The Voice of the OW: First, thank you for your responses, input and observations. It's comforting to know we are not alone.

"Why is this wrong?"- this should've have been the first question posed to Vincent's parents. I suppose if I weren't directly involved and emotionally wrapped up in this, I would've asked that myself, lol. My emails to his parents were respectful and understanding in the beginning, even though I knew they thought I was 10 years younger than my real age. I assured them of my deep, true love, my desire for his happiness and to continue his education, that I want to help him succeed in life. I wasn't trying to steal him from his family and make him my sex slave. I wrestled with telling them the truth about my real age myself, but decided it was his parents and I would let him handle things on his end as he saw fit. Well, as you know it blew up, as these things usually do. I continued to be respectful and polite, even when the verbal assault began on me, but felt I was not going to be a whipping post and defended myself when cheap shots were taken at me. I was ready for the shock, the concern, even some anger. Hey, if I were the parent, I'd be worried as hell too. But then I was called a pedophile, immoral and my mental health was questioned. When I tried to give them some insight as to who I am and my background, I was succinctly told by his mother "I don't care about your home life." Now, having been an overweight child and teenager, I was used to insults, but for them to hate me simply because I am 19 years older than he has hurt me deeply. I am not a human being to his parents. It has occurred to me though, that if the cybersex stuff had not been discovered, perhaps the uproar would not be so vehement against me and my age. After all, they still think of Vincent as a child. Most parents don't want to see/hear/know about that stuff no matter how old their child anyway.

Now it's easy to say to Vincent "you're an adult, you can do what you want." What he didn't mention is that his parents have given him an ultimatum: It's either me or his family. If he chooses to be with me, they will no longer welcome him. Which means he will be forcibly parted from his brothers, whom he loves to death as they do him. Do you see the position he's been put in? I begged his parents many times not to do this; hate me if they want, have nothing to do with me, but to cut Vincent off from his family would hurt him so much more. Not only that, it will also hurt his brothers and ultimately his parents as well. As far as I know, they refused to listen to me. And now they don't even want to communicate with me anymore, which after what I've been through, is fine with me.

I haven't mentioned this to Vincent, but I will say this now: I believe his parents issued this ultimatum on purpose, knowing full well the results. They know Vincent's weakness is his brothers, and are using that to manipulate him into doing what they want. They know how close they all are, that Vincent wants everyone to be happy and that separating him and his brothers would be too much for him to bear. They also probably know he would blame himself for his brothers' pain and carry the heavy guilt. Thus he would give in and give me up. I could be wrong, and I admit I usually suspect the worst of most people.

So that folks, is the real pickle, for the time being anyway. I am in
still in NJ and he is still in MO. And I have no idea what will happen next.

Again, thanks to all for the support. It really does help. :)

My heart goes out to both of you, and I fervently hope it will turn out the way you want it to.

The threat of "disowning" did occur to me, later. Certainly not beyond the boundary of possibility for these parents who seem to have gone far beyond natural parental concern! From the first post it seemed like Vincent could be hauled back into dutiful obedience by using the bond with his brothers as a weapon; I guess that was even more obvious to his parents!

Odd how they manage to sling dirt at you and him for having a genuine emotional connection, yet cannot see that their own controlling, manipulative behaviour is a hundred times more "wrong".......... As a woman who almost became my mother-in-law (and whose own sister-in-law was a nun) used to say, "Too much religion, and not enough Christianity!"

Cybersex? Big deal! If I was a parent, I'd definitely prefer my son or daughter to do their "experimentation" online than with real-life sex -- let's face it, the potential for disease transmission or accidental pregnancy is nonexistent!

There are others here who have fought the same battle, and I hope they will respond. At this point, I would have absolutely no qualms about telling these people precisely what they want to hear, and then doing as the two of you originally intended. But my personal sense of fairness says that there is justification in lying to these parents whose concern for their son is warped out of proportion to reality -- however, Vincent will be the one who has to deal with the guilt involved.

Please, stay in touch with the board here.

Well, I don't have kids, but I imagine I'd be a little overwhelmed to discover my 19 year old son engaged in cybersex and webcams with a 37 year old woman who I'd been told was 23.

And I say this as a woman who got involved with a nineteen year old when I was 35 and am still with him - 4 years later.

NOT the way for Mom to find out!

The problem (for the original poster) is that right now, this has all the appearances (not the reality, just the appearance of) a primarily sex-based relationship - the evidence is all about hot e-mails, webcams, lying about ages and divorces. The part where you love each other and want what's best for each other is a bit submerged. And that's the important part.

Maybe one way to derail some of it is to focus, go off to college whether in NY or elsewhere for a year, don't live with Caroline, and demonstrate to your parents that you are putting your education first, that you aren't throwing everything away in a sexual passion, and that you and Caroline are perfectly capable of waiting a while to be together if thats what's best for you.

Then from the vantage point of an adult with his own computer, tell them that you care for this person, she cares for you, you make each other happy and in your world, people who love each other being together is the most moral thing in the universe. And if they love you, then you expect them to understand and accept that.

If you force it right now, under the current circumstances, you may never get to that point, and that will be more painful for everyone involved.

Sometimes, after a bad start, it takes a while to get to where you want to be.

I haven't posted here this past weekend, as I've been a bit busy (19th birthday was Friday). But I do want to ask one more question.

How do you deal with this pain and torture of being apart? Sure, we have emails and webcams, and the phone (which sadly, we haven't spoken on the latter in some time), but we are unable to physically reach out and hold each other.

Caroline got an apartment 5 miles from the college I wish to go to; an apartment for me, an apartment for us. We expected to be together this past January, and it seems that everything has been conspiring to keep us apart.

Before her, I had one long distance relationship (across the state) a year before; it lasted a month, and did not include love. Caroline and I have now been together almost 9 months, and we haven't been able to even touch each other in that time.

I'm just afraid sometimes that the pain might grow unbearable, for me, and for her... the pain I know she feels, and sometimes tries to hide from me, at being apart... it cuts straight through to my heart.

Is there anyway, anyway at all, to allay this pain?

Thanks for all the help.

Well, my appearance here doesn't mean good news for you, Vincent... But please consider me your friend, who really, really is concerned with your well being.
I am also a parent.. and can very well understand what your parents are exposed to and how hard they are trying to keep you from "screwing" your life at this point. I was there...

They would definitely prefer just to speak with you, to explain things to you, to convince you. But apparently that didn't work. Therefore they are trying to do whatever they can think of to keep you on the right track. And trust me, young man, their vision
of what is best for you now is definitely better than any online lover could provide you with. In my opinion is doesn't have so much to do with their control over you. Their actions are based on love and care for their son, who should now care primarily about self-development and blooming into a grown man.
As Jordan says, there will be plenty of time for other things later on... Look also what Desert Spring says.. very wise..

I have read your post and first few responses a while ago and immediately wanted to respond, yet I decided to sleep on it not to add to your frustration. Here I am - back after several days - and with yet stronger determination of saying what I wanted to say before: LET IT GO, Vincent.

You have one life, one mother and father and brothers. Cannot buy, exchange, find another parents and siblings. These bonds are natural and strong and irreplaceable. To break them, to hurt yourself and your immediate family you should have a very strong reason and no other possible solution.

But.. you can find and have many different relationships and lovers.. you just began your adult life.. don't rush. You don't even know if this is love; in no way it is verified and confirmed. Also, would you want to give up college education - or be kept by a woman to study? Would she support you? How'd you feel ?

You say that you were saving yourself for Caroline; means, you didn't have previous sexual experiences. It is understandable then how attracted you are to your on-line lover. You can still keep in touch with her, but first things first. Take care about your present and future family bonds, your education, finding yourself, socializing with other people and learning their point of view on many aspects of life..

There will be plenty of time for love, sex, fantasies, you name it...

Teli

P.S. Please don't understand me wrong. I have nothing against age gap relationships or your lady. Just in this particular situation these are my thoughts.

I'm sorry Telimena, but in this situation you have no idea what you're talking about and what is involved in our situation, parent or not. And if you have read the posts as you have said you would realize this. This is not simply two horny lonely people having online sex. This IS love and it IS confirmed AND verified, thank you very much. I have been encouraging Vincent to continue his education since we first met. I have been and willing to support him in whatever he wants to do in life. I have stood by and accepted his choices, even to my own disadvantage. I have found a place to live close to where he will go to school, in an area suited to his needs. I have searched out employment possibilities for him here.

I have reached out to his family only to be vilified simply because of my age. I have declared my intentions to them as I have stated them above. I have never once wanted him to to turn his back on his family, nor have I ever put him into the postion to chose between me or them as they are doing to him now.

This "online lover" is doing whatever she can to make sure he is happy, healthy and successful in whatever he chooses to do. I should show you some of the things his parents have said to me, some examples of "parenting" I've become privy to over these 9 months, perhaps then you won't be so quick to push me aside and insult me as his parents have.

Your shallow and completely uninformed judgment of me and my intentions are hurtful and flatout WRONG - but I've been become quite used to that now. When Vincent found this site, I thought we would find understanding and support...now I have to laugh, since now it seems we also have to face not only prejudice against our agegap relationship, but because it's also online for the time being. There really is no hope for us, is there?

Thank you for reinforcing that no matter how open and accepting people claim to be, that it's just a farce really.

Scene not promising!

Boy loves woman. Boy is virgin, woman divorced. Boy and woman have cybersex, excites boy greatly. Boy has great feelings of love, as does woman who endured much pain during rotten marriage. They fall in love.

What gives me the heebee geebees is that she rents out the place 5 miles from his college, before they even live together or anything. Would a female his age do that? No!!!

Now look, I'm not judging either of you, I'm an outsider looking in. I've seen a lot here, and I'm going to go based on what I've seen (and yeah, I'm SURE you're crazy about eachother, you don't have to convince me of that).

I'm a big believer in treating a man of any age as just that...A MAN! A man has had experience with intimate relationships. Now, I'm not saying a man has to have had sex, but he has had a sense of what sex entails and what it is to be in a commited relationship. A man knows what it is like to support himself. A man knows what it is like to fulfill obligations to his family and to his woman. The very fact that he was still considered a "boy" to his family, and that he could in no way tell them the truth about his woman, indicates that he is emotionally still just a boy, and not ready to commit to someone older. She may have given him the much needed attention and cyber closeness he needed and craved, but I don't think that constitutes a serious relationship for either of them. I'm thinking about her as much as him. He hasn't had the chance to go out and experience women as a MAN yet. I wouldn't trust someone so inexperienced with my heart.

He sounds about like my son, who is 14 now, but who soon will be 19 (before I know it). If someone 20 years older tried to seduce him (especially over the internet) I would pull a Clara Harris on her! Seriously though, I know my son. He doesn't possess the intelligence or the maturity to be in such a relationship, now, or 5 years from now. I just know him, I know how he is. That's not controlling, that's FACTUAL. If he was the independent type, it would be different, but he's not, and Vincent doesn't sound like that either. His parents pay for his schooling, right? So he's not independent. Maybe his siblings DO NEED him. Maybe he SHOULDN'T turn his back on them. Maybe this relationship just shouldn't happen at this time. I know you both want it to, but know this: I believe that people have many "soul mates" in their lives, and that the ones they don't marry will be good friends forever.

Good luck to both of you.

do what you feel is right Carrie.no one can live your lives for you.



I have reached out to his family only to be vilified simply because of my age.

and I know that must hurt.we too had family problems.It doesn't feel good,sometimes you can only try for so long.

sounds like you and you ym are really good friends...thats good.I married my best friend and we still are best friends.:) :)

don't worry about anyone "judgeing" you,that will happen,no matter what you do sometimes.do what you feel in your heart is right.good luck.

Polly - Yet more assumptions: 1) When we started emailing with each other, it was strictly out of friendship, there were no feelings sexual or romantic involved at all. Our friendship grew out of our daily communications then evolved from there. 2) I did not seduce him online ala Mrs. Robinson 3) We have prepared ourselves for his parents cutting him off financially for his education, which they have threatened to do. (isn't that nice? jeopardize your son's education because you don't approve of his girlfriend) 4) Vincent is not like all 19 year old men, wanting to "experience" women wantonly. He decided when he was about 12 or 13 to remain a virgin until he met the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with. Oh, how abnormal! A teenage guy that actually has a set of MORALS! *gasp* 5) I was surprised at his parents reaction: not in the least, I even told his mom I would react the same way. What I wasn't prepared for that they didn't even want to try and know me, just hurl insults blindly at me. 6) That he couldn't tell the truth about me to his parents proves he is emotionally unable to commit. Wrong. Vincent knows his parents, knew how they may react. He approached the situation the best way he saw how after many months of us discussing how to tell our parents. 7) This is not a serious relationship because its online. Again, as people here have been subject to prejudice and misundertandings of agegap relationships, now you are showing that same eaction to online relationships. 8) You think I want him to turn his back on his family - I DON'T. It is they who want to turn their backs on him

You know, this whole uproar about online relationships is ridiculous and proves again how non-objective people are. How many people have you met in person that have lied to you? It's just as easy to do offline as online. People deceive each other in person. I met my ex-husband IN PERSON, we dated for 2 years, lived together for 3 and were marrried for 4. And we hardly knew one another. My point is people can lie and deceive and be blind to one another and have phony relationships just as easily offline as online.

I mean look at this very forum!! It's ONLINE and people have formed deep bonds here from across the world! Are those not valid relationships? There's even a personal ad section!

You may think you're not being judgmental....but I'm afraid you are being just that. I have spoken to other parents about my situation, and thankfully not all of them have reacted the same as some have here or else I may become prejudiced to all parents.

Originally posted by Desert Spring
Well, I don't have kids, but I imagine I'd be a little overwhelmed to discover my 19 year old son engaged in cybersex and webcams with a 37 year old woman who I'd been told was 23.

And I say this as a woman who got involved with a nineteen year old when I was 35 and am still with him - 4 years later.

NOT the way for Mom to find out!

The problem (for the original poster) is that right now, this has all the appearances (not the reality, just the appearance of) a primarily sex-based relationship - the evidence is all about hot e-mails, webcams, lying about ages and divorces. The part where you love each other and want what's best for each other is a bit submerged. And that's the important part.

Maybe one way to derail some of it is to focus, go off to college whether in NY or elsewhere for a year, don't live with Caroline, and demonstrate to your parents that you are putting your education first, that you aren't throwing everything away in a sexual passion, and that you and Caroline are perfectly capable of waiting a while to be together if thats what's best for you.

Then from the vantage point of an adult with his own computer, tell them that you care for this person, she cares for you, you make each other happy and in your world, people who love each other being together is the most moral thing in the universe. And if they love you, then you expect them to understand and accept that.

If you force it right now, under the current circumstances, you may never get to that point, and that will be more painful for everyone involved.

Sometimes, after a bad start, it takes a while to get to where you want to be.

Thank you for this response; I can definitely understand how the appearances may be to my parents; as for college, that has always been the plan; I am currently waiting for my father to finish taxes so I can fill out the FAFSA; a necessary government form for higher education financial aid.

Currently, my primary goal is to get my mother to lift the ultimatum; hopefully I can ask the counselor, who we've known for about 10 years, to speak to my mother about this.

However, as to my parents' viewpoint, I truly do believe that they just consider the age difference to be "wrong". I don't know how to change that viewpoint, especially with stubborn, conservative parents.

Thank you for your help.

Originally posted by Telimena
Well, my appearance here doesn't mean good news for you, Vincent... But please consider me your friend, who really, really is concerned with your well being.
I am also a parent.. and can very well understand what your parents are exposed to and how hard they are trying to keep you from "screwing" your life at this point. I was there...

They would definitely prefer just to speak with you, to explain things to you, to convince you. But apparently that didn't work. Therefore they are trying to do whatever they can think of to keep you on the right track. And trust me, young man, their vision
of what is best for you now is definitely better than any online lover could provide you with. In my opinion is doesn't have so much to do with their control over you. Their actions are based on love and care for their son, who should now care primarily about self-development and blooming into a grown man.
As Jordan says, there will be plenty of time for other things later on... Look also what Desert Spring says.. very wise..

I have read your post and first few responses a while ago and immediately wanted to respond, yet I decided to sleep on it not to add to your frustration. Here I am - back after several days - and with yet stronger determination of saying what I wanted to say before: LET IT GO, Vincent.

You have one life, one mother and father and brothers. Cannot buy, exchange, find another parents and siblings. These bonds are natural and strong and irreplaceable. To break them, to hurt yourself and your immediate family you should have a very strong reason and no other possible solution.

But.. you can find and have many different relationships and lovers.. you just began your adult life.. don't rush. You don't even know if this is love; in no way it is verified and confirmed. Also, would you want to give up college education - or be kept by a woman to study? Would she support you? How'd you feel ?

You say that you were saving yourself for Caroline; means, you didn't have previous sexual experiences. It is understandable then how attracted you are to your on-line lover. You can still keep in touch with her, but first things first. Take care about your present and future family bonds, your education, finding yourself, socializing with other people and learning their point of view on many aspects of life..

There will be plenty of time for love, sex, fantasies, you name it...

Teli

P.S. Please don't understand me wrong. I have nothing against age gap relationships or your lady. Just in this particular situation these are my thoughts.

I wanted to immediately lash out at you when I first read this, but after some time to think, I would like to respond.

Firstly, I disagree entirely with the idea of my having several lovers. I have believed from a young age (early pubescence) that there was one, and only one, for me. Call me a Romantic, an Idealist, or a number of derogatory terms instead, and I will continue to believe this.

I am making no moral statements regarding having several different lovers over the course of a lifetime, and believe such can even be done within monogamy. I have learned of the necessity of divorce when two people find they are not the couple they thought they were. But not me. I can not easily and readily toss aside my dearest love.

Caroline asked me, when all of this came to a head, if I would prefer her to leave me, if it would make handling all of this easier, and I stated then, and I state now, that I want and need her in my life, forever.

You are correct in that I have never had a sexual relationship before, but I am not a stranger to relationships with a more emotional focus, and Caroline and I are first and foremost an emotionally attached couple.

My father and his do not have a very good relationship, due to 1) my father being kicked out of his home, and 2) my grandfather initially disagreeing completely with my father's decision to marry my mother (they got married at 20 and 19) (my grandfather was a military man). My father also doesn't see or speak with his four siblings very often; there is no bad blood between any of them, but not very much contact. My mother on the other hand has a wonderful relationship with her family, and used to call her sister every Friday evening. I do wish they could see what they would be doing to me if they maintained this ultimatum when I do decide to leave, and I can swear that nothing will keep me from being with my brothers.

Believe it or not, at 19, I know some of what it feels like to be a parent. I am overprotective of my brothers, I try to help them out when they are having trouble on homework, I spend time with them, sometimes discussing their dreams of the future. I fill the spot in their life that I wish my parents would have in mine when I was younger. I understood, and still understand, that they had to work (both have even worked night shifts at different points), but there was never any real relationship between us.

I do want you to know that I truly do wish to form and hold a good relationship with my family; both my dear brothers and even my parents; if this were not true, I would have been with Caroline two months ago. These two months have been horrible emotionally for the two of us, and yet we maintain the hope and desire to be together.

Finally, I must say that I can not let her go. I have a true bond with her, a deep bond with her, and that will never be destroyed. I am aware that there are many that disbelieve how deep an online relationship can go (I disbelieved one until a couple of years ago, when I met two people who had held a two year online relationship before meeting, and marrying).

I understand where you are coming from, but I must disagree with what you think I should do.

Originally posted by Polly
Scene not promising!

Boy loves woman. Boy is virgin, woman divorced. Boy and woman have cybersex, excites boy greatly. Boy has great feelings of love, as does woman who endured much pain during rotten marriage. They fall in love.

What gives me the heebee geebees is that she rents out the place 5 miles from his college, before they even live together or anything. Would a female his age do that? No!!!

Now look, I'm not judging either of you, I'm an outsider looking in. I've seen a lot here, and I'm going to go based on what I've seen (and yeah, I'm SURE you're crazy about eachother, you don't have to convince me of that).

I'm a big believer in treating a man of any age as just that...A MAN! A man has had experience with intimate relationships. Now, I'm not saying a man has to have had sex, but he has had a sense of what sex entails and what it is to be in a commited relationship. A man knows what it is like to support himself. A man knows what it is like to fulfill obligations to his family and to his woman. The very fact that he was still considered a "boy" to his family, and that he could in no way tell them the truth about his woman, indicates that he is emotionally still just a boy, and not ready to commit to someone older. She may have given him the much needed attention and cyber closeness he needed and craved, but I don't think that constitutes a serious relationship for either of them. I'm thinking about her as much as him. He hasn't had the chance to go out and experience women as a MAN yet. I wouldn't trust someone so inexperienced with my heart.

He sounds about like my son, who is 14 now, but who soon will be 19 (before I know it). If someone 20 years older tried to seduce him (especially over the internet) I would pull a Clara Harris on her! Seriously though, I know my son. He doesn't possess the intelligence or the maturity to be in such a relationship, now, or 5 years from now. I just know him, I know how he is. That's not controlling, that's FACTUAL. If he was the independent type, it would be different, but he's not, and Vincent doesn't sound like that either. His parents pay for his schooling, right? So he's not independent. Maybe his siblings DO NEED him. Maybe he SHOULDN'T turn his back on them. Maybe this relationship just shouldn't happen at this time. I know you both want it to, but know this: I believe that people have many "soul mates" in their lives, and that the ones they don't marry will be good friends forever.

Good luck to both of you.

I understand how you might consider me a boy, with my limited "world experience" (my father played the same card already, however, I do see fit to defend myself a little, without trying to appear a braggart.

I am 19 years of age, as of this past Friday, and hold a High School Diploma from the Missouri Academy of Science, Mathematics, and Computing, and an Associate Degree of Science from Northwest Missouri State University, both received simultaneously on May 25th, 2002. The program was a two year early entry program to college, taking college courses, most of the time in classes that were primarily "regular" college students. I received a full ride scholarship for the program, from the state of Missouri, totalling about $32,000. My parents would have been unable to even pay room and board of $6000 a year (which initially was to be paid) if not for the scholarship. I held a 3.65 GPA for the two years. Furthermore, I was told by the dean shortly before leaving that I was almost not accepted due to my grades at high school (rather poor, 2.9 GPA); I was accepted solely on teacher recommendations and my 34 ACT. If I had chosen, I could have finished the program for a Bachelor's Degree in Mathematics with a minor in English by December, 2003, but I had decided I didn't want that, for a number of reasons. I made a poor decision when applying for college, initially, in that I applied to UMR (University of Missouri, Rolla) and NYU only, and even though I was accepted to the former, had absolutely no desire to attend (it's a great engineering school, but has a limited English department; in retrospect, I should have chosen to attend for a year); I was rejected from NYU, although my college counselor contacted their admissions and was told that if I attended elsewhere for a year, and did reasonably well (to prove that the Academy didn't push me farther than I would push myself), I would have a great chance of acceptance. Then I applied for MU (Missouri University in Columbia), but there were a number of transcript problems (MU didn't receive my transcripts, which were sent four times)). This last Fall and early winter I applied to Bloomfield in NJ, and was accepted the Wednesday before classes started, and that was the beginning of this mess.

Intelligence is not something I am lacking, and that is something I am certain of. Surely, I have limited world experience, and that might affect the wisdom of decisions I make.

As to maturity, this is a much more difficult subject, and one that I am certain I will be disagreed with. While at the Academy, although the dormitory I lived in was Academy only, and we had rules and restrictions, curfews, etc., in class we were largely inconspicuous. A number of times I found out that the students in my classes thought I was 20 or 21, until something came out that I was Academy (one occasion that comes readily to my mind was in my psychology course, in which I was one of two Academy students, when a survey for a student's project came around, which could be filled out for 5 points extra credit, the professor told us, in front of the class, that we couldn't take it without parental permission due to questions regarding sex; we were both 17).

A number of times in IM conversations with acquaintances from forums I am a part of, age has come up (I usually don't put birthdate in my profiles, but it seemed to fit on this forum), and a number of times I've been told I was thought of as older. This anecdotal evidence surely can't be taken as anything other than opinion, but I must say that I have been considered by others, and myself, to be emotionally and morally mature.

As for your first paragraph, we fell in love before the cybersex; that came afterwards, largely as an accident, but one we didn't shun.

I have held a number of relationships since I was 16 (although I only held one before that age, when I was 13, which wasn't good, and turned me off to relationships for a while). I had 3 relationships in six months, two of which could really be constituted as anything more than friendship in reality, one of which was going to be a completely physical "fling". In the next couple of years I held a relationship with a girl, who loved me, although I didn't return the love she felt for me; luckily it ended amicably, and we are friends to this day (and I've been invited to her marriage sometime in the next two years; date not decided yet). I have done my share of "seducing" and my share of being "seduced", and I know what it feels like for one partner in the relationship to have the upper hand. Caroline and I are true partners, and are truly, and completely in love, and have only each other's best interests at heart. My reason given, and which I truly believe, for not going to be with her initially is that I know, truly, if I were to leave here without some vestige of support, or at least knowing that I've done my absolute best to achieve that support, I could not be hers entirely when we live together. I would have been continually looking back, instead of forward with her.

As for being independent, I have been "independent" for a number of years, including the two I spent at college, in a dorm (left at 16) (and the several when I was younger and felt truly alone in this world ;)). My parents are unable to financially support me, and so I will be on my own; I am currently waiting to hear back about a data entry position I have applied for ($10.38 an hour for entry level, not bad), and I live here at home until such time I decide to leave for college; I will visit home, for my family's sake, while at college. Being independent is not equivalent to being callous towards the needs and feelings of those close to you.

Now, I have tried to defend myself, my person, and that can be accepted or rejected. I will not defend my character or my passion any longer.

I do respect your opinions (both of the two that suggested I was not ready for this relationship); however, I would like to mention that both have said they are parents, and I think I'm finding a tendency about that; I think I can understand it, and I do believe it is a parental protectiveness. I must disagree with you as to my emotional capacity to handle this relationship; as for my lack of worldly experience, I am trying to learn as quickly as I can.

I don't want you guys to think everyone here is against you at all.
I met my guy online too at age 17, we also started out as just friends, and our relationship grew to include more.
He also gave up his life, and moved 1200 miles away from his home to be with me. He's an only child. We have contact with his parents, but it's limited to every few weeks a phone call. He's been back to visit twice in nearly two years. This is his choice, and really has nothing to do with our relationship, but with his own feelings. His mom and I chat sometimes, but this all took lots of time.
We have a lot of similarities in our stories.
We also had a healthy online sex life before we met. His mom found pictures, and confronted me by phone. She tried to cut off communications between us, but David's pretty darn strong willed. She'd even called the police, and was told there was nothing she could do. I wrote her a letter telling her that I had no intentions of hurting him, I avoided the accusations about their crappy parenting skills I could have made, and just focused on the positive things that David and I being together could mean. She's actually, in the last few months told David she was grateful for me. She called me several times during David's grandfather's last illness to help her clarify what the doctors had told her, and to ask questions and stuff. (I'm a nurse) I was totally amazed that she said that.
I have three kids older than David, so yes, I can see their point from a parent's point of view, and I do sympathize with the grief they must feel, that their dreams for their child aren't turning out the way they wanted.
Everyone here knows my point of view on the sex thing. I don't think its at all necessary to go out and have random sex to grow as a person. Whether male or female, its totally possible to have just one sex partner in your life. I know people who've done it, and hurrah for them. David also had made the choice to not have sex till he met the person he wanted to be with. He'd had plenty of chances, but had chosen not to. Not everyone is like some guys who feel a need to go through a party hearty phase. Of course there will always be that curiosity. Heck, I'm still curious about what it might be like with some other guy. I was married twice, once for ten years, once for 17 years, so it's not like I've spent all my life from puberty onwards sampling every guy I came to. I've told David, if its something he thinks he has to do, then I'd prefer he leaves first, and if he's going to do it anyway, wear a condom, and don't tell me. He was totally aghast at that, and said he couldn't do that, he'd feel too guilty. I told him, his choice, but be aware of the consequences if you do it, and I find out, broken trust is one thing I don't think I could recover our relationship from.
You guys are in a tough spot with his parents, but ultimately the choice for his life is his own, not theirs. There is a reason the wedding vows say a man shall leave his mother, and a woman leave her home. When you bond with each other, its important that you become a family in yourselves, and if his parents can't deal with it, then they probably wouldn't be able to deal with anyone in his life. Time and patience cure lots of wounds. As for your little brothers, they'll grow up eventually as well, and I'm sure won't be estranged from you forever.
At 19, you're capable of making your own choices. Part of learning to be an adult carries with it the knowledge that you can't always make everyone happy with the choices you make, so you do the best you can for yourself.
Carrie, it sounds like you've done the best you can here. When you're with someone really young, yeah, you do have to take some responsibility to see that he's taken care of. Its a hard concept for someone who's never been there to see, that its possible to take care of, as well as be taken care of. There are realistically just certain things you have to do as the older partner. And its just a matter of learning. You almost have to be part teacher, as well as lover. And sometimes its a delicate balancing act to be there, but allow the space to grow, and stretch that they need. We've, over the last couple of years grown a lot. We went through a couple of months of couple's counseling, and it really helped a lot. We both have a lot to learn yet, but we're commited to growing together.
I just wanted you to know it is possible, its hard, but its been so joyous as well.
Feel free to write if you have any questions, or anything you want to talk about privately. I also have most of the IM programs, if you'd like to chat that way. And Sir, if you'd like to email David, feel free to do that with my email address too.
Frances

Bella - thank you. I'm happy your YM's mom came around. I can only hope the same will happen for us. Sadly his parents threatened legal action and his father wanted to write my local paper and place of employment to "expose" me. Which of course would have been pointless since Vincent's of legal age. I too stated my honest intentions to his parents, focusing on the positive as you did. Unfortunately, when his parents starting insulting me and my moral character, I did let a few "comments" fly. My way of self-defense which didn't help at all. :s But as you can see here, I'm not one to let anyone run roughshod over me - especially when they haven't a clue or make assumptions.

One of the things that impressed me about Vincent was his decision to remain celibate until he met "the one". And this was before we fell in love. IMO, it's so refreshing, so responsible and mature for someone to make that conscious decision at a young age and stand by it. It's sad that people at any age don't have that level of maturity. To encourage a young man to go out and "experience women" is quite surprising to me, especially when it comes from a parent. I mean are parents advocating promiscuity to their children nowadays?

And yes, there are more things I take responsibility for, simply because Vincent has had less experience in "the real world". In fact, he has to remind me at times that he's not sure how to approach something you or I may already have experience with. In some ways I am a teacher to him, but in other ways he has taught me so very much. :) It truly is a give and give relationship.

One of the things I have said to Vincent in this mess is something you have as well: You can't make everyone happy. He is dealing with that now and it isn't easy. It never is for anyone when the people you love are hurting. But there comes a point when you realize that you have to do what you think is best for you...and everyone else will just have to deal with your decision.

Thank you. :)

Hi again,

There's no doubt that you're both between a rock and a hard place. Ultimatims, are by their very nature, totally unreasonable and impossible to deal with - but here you are.

I'm not questioning the pain of being apart - I know it's real - but if you have siblings that you love and want to be there for, then you should be. That's important, too.

Your parents don't have to approve, they don't have to love Carrie, they can say as many nasty things behind your back as they need to, but it shouldn't come to cutting you apart from your brothers and sister's - especially when they are at such vuleranable ages - losing your big brother at 13 and 15 would cut pretty deep, dontcha think?

So if I were you - and I'm not - I'd bite the bullet for the year, live alone in college, visit your girlfriend as you can, but get an independent life established
before you move in with her. You may still have a "thing" with your folks, but it will be a slightly different kind of thing than jumping from their house to hers.

Everybody sounds like they need some distance from the lying and the discovered stuff on the computer, and time is the only way to get that distance.

Your heart will ache for her, but won't it ache for your siblings too, if your parents deliver on their threat?

Even if it takes a stinking year, you should be able to have both in your life. Everybody deserves that.

And Carrie is a big girl and she does want that for you, I'm sure, however angry and hurt she may be at the moment.

Nobody wants to come between their guy and the other people he loves.

Anyway, that's what I'd do if I were you - and good luck!

Hmmmm I see the "pickle",

personaly I think take a bite out of it........nah make that a CHOMP.
and both do what you feel in your hearts and souls.

Good luck to you both.

Hi Carrie and Vincent.... *smiles* I want to write you this wonderful supportive message, but it is 1 a.m. where I am so we will just have to settle for whatever mess I can produce here. *smiles*
I have been in a similar situation. It was not online, it was real life. I was 32. He was 18. His mother found out by actually parking in my driveway with her car lights off and seeing us kiss through a window. *SIGH* Not the best situation.
His mother confronted me the next day. It was not pleasant. In fact, I wondered if she was not going to try to physically harm me.
I live in a very small town. People here were terrible. They laughed at me, I became the object of ALL the gossip. People made snide comments, not just to me but to my son. One lady called me a child molester. Some people would not allow their children to play with my children. The lady who lives across the street from me has a husband 20 years older than her, but would not allow her grandchildren to play with my kids when they visited on the weekend. My neighbor to the side of me also has a husband 20 years older than she, but started talking about me with the other neighbors like our relationship was the worst thing she had ever come across. She married her husband when she was 18 and he was 38!!!! The lady who called me a child molester worked at the school my younger children attend, and made it a point to inform their teachers, etc. WOW! All I can say is, it was one of the worst periods of my life.
I was pretty respected before all of this happened.
There was also a point in time where we thought he would have to chose between me and his family. But then we came to this realization...They were the ones making the choice, not us. He could not chose whether or not to love me. But they could chose whether to stand by him and support him or not.
He was also a virgin when we met. People thought maybe he was confused by the sex, or confused because of his lack of experience with love in general...Could not really be in love because of his age...whatever argument you can think of, we had it. But apparently he did know what he was feeling as it is over two years later and he is still here.
My point in all this is...you should do what the two of you want. All of this ugliness will pass. I can understand his mother being shocked and upset. I could understand my y/m Mom being upset. But listen, sometimes love happens....we don't search for it, we don't expect it and we can't change it.
So my advice boils down to this...
Stick it out. Wait for everyone to calm down. Don't rub your relationship in their faces, by any means, but don't give it up. If Vincent's parents decide to follow through with their ultimatum, just make sure you remind them it is THEM making the choice to abandon Vincent, and that he had no intention of ever abandoning them. Do what you have to do to get through it, stay strong, and realize that what YOU think about Vincent and what he thinks about you is all that matters, and together you can be strong. *smiles*
BTW, I think waiting for the right person is extremely admirable...My y/m did that too, and it is very special to me that he has never been with anyone else. We have been together over two years now, and everything is good. People don't talk as much anymore, children are once again playing at my house, and his mother yesterday invited me to a baby shower she was having for his sister-in-law. So how great is that!
So good luck to you both...feel free to message me if you would like to talk. I will be sending lots of positive energy your way...

vincent ~ your parents job is to raise you the best they can, and then let you go. you're an adult, and life is short...do what you think is best and what you feel in your heart. i spent much of my early adulthood trying to do what i thought my parents wanted me to do and as a result, i made a lot of decisions that made me very unhappy. you don't need to please your parents ~ this is YOUR life now.

carrie/vincent ~ best of luck, you two. i truly hope you all can work something out that suits you both. life is short, and we need to fit as much living into it as we can!!!

>^..^<

First, I'd like to thank all of you on behalf of Caroline and I; thank you so much for the support, it really has helped us out.

We've spoken a bit about it, and currently, the plan is for us both to take the week of Memorial Day off (5/27 - 5/30 (as Memorial Day is, of course, an off day)), I fly in on 5/23, come back on 6/1); that'll give me time to get settled in my first real job, her to get settled in her new job (same company, a job she enjoys a lot more than where she is now), and hopefully for me to get the counselor to get my mother to lift the ultimatum (as that seems to me to be very un-Christian-like, that ultimatum). I doubt my parents will refuse to let me back, as they REALLY want me to get this job (I'd be making 6 cents an hour more than my mother), and I have not yet decided on living in the dorm or living with Caroline; living with the dorm would be easier for my parents to handle, but depending on the financial aid I receive, an extra $3000 a semester that could be easily dodged isn't something I'm willing to pay.

Well, that's it so far, and I'm going to stick with that plan of the trip (we don't know yet if we're going to do anything sexual or not yet; she's left the decision to me, with what I'm comfortable with and prefer).

Thanks all.

Jonalee- Wow...your post totally blew me away. What you went thru is much worse what I have been thru...your strength truly amazes me. :)

All your points are valid and your words wise...I too believe there should be a calming down period as well, which is one of the reasons (amongst the others) why I think it was good to push back the visit a couple months.

We are sticking it out. :) We promised that no matter what, we will always have each other. There is no other for me but Vincent. :) The story of your situation, and those of others plus the words are support have helped us a immensely - especially me. :) Knowing that others have gone through what we are (or worse) and survived, that there can be happy and peaceful resolutions give me much strength and comfort.

kittykat - I agree wholeheartedly. :) We will always love our families, but everyone has to live their own lives.

Vincent, thank you for the reply. I think nobody ever doubted in your intelligence; it shines through. The way you write proves also many other virtues that you posses. Very nice young man, indeed.

Of course everyone has own opinion and you know your situation better then anyone here. It is great that you disagree, debate, deffend your position and dreams; stand by yourself and your love. Again, no matter how upset you were with my post, please remember that it was not written AGAINST you. I was simply moved by the possibility of your losing and sacrificing too much...

I am sorry, I really am, to cause negative feelings and I greatly appreciate that you postponed your replay to let emotions calm down. Thank you for that nice gesture.

Yes, I am probably that typical coservatively inclined parent who thinks of family, education, self-development as the most important for young people. Love, sex, dreams and fantasies come next. Well, as you see - there are other opinions here that state that parents are basically to give children everything until the children reach the age of 18. Then parents are no longer needed and should let children do whatever they want to do..
Legally - fine with me. But emotionally - try everybody, and then speak convincingly..

That subject alone would probably be a hot debate among people here - and everywhere, and definitely points of view would vary also depending on the country of origin and family's position in each culture. In some countries parents are cared for by the children, in others - parents are placed in "homes" and ties with them are rather formal and often held more for the society to see than because of the deep love and respect for the "folks".

Life is sometimes brutal in many of its aspects...:( But sometimes the difficulties work to our advantage. It had to be very difficult for you to be out of home at 16 and practically support yourself while studying. But see, today you can be proud of yourself and use these hard times to prove your abilities and maturity.. Once difficult times became your achievements later.. :).

I wish you all the best. The best for yourself and your future.

Teli

I read your response to my first post and couldn't believe my eyes. You are accusing me of something I haven't done: pushing you aside, insulting you, judging you ???
Unless you find insulting and judgmental words "on-line lover"? And that cannot be insulting, because that is a fact, isn't it? You are in on-line relationship. And that love wasn't tested and proven true by living together thru good and bad times and surviving it and still being there for each other (that is what I meant saying " it wasn't tested and proven") - and that is also a fact, since you two didn't even see each other.

My entire post had really nothing to do with you. It was directed to a young man who is in difficult position and who has to make a difficult decisions. It was him I was concerned about. If you take it as a crime against you - well, that is your right.

But if you have read my Post Scriptum you would see black on white that I had nothing against age gap relationship or Vincent's lady - you.

I understand that you are defensive - for many reasons- and you decided that whoever is not with you, must be against you.
I think, you convinced me now...

Teli

As a parent of a 20 year old daughter who moved in with a 42 year old man when she turned 18, I understand a parent's concerns. But now the 20 year old is living with and wants to marry a 31 year old that she has met and is living with now. She went from the fry pan to the flame. I would much rather her be with the older guy who is a hard worker and loving towards his children instead of this guy that she is with now. This new guy is a vampire worshipper, uses 4 letter words when dealing with his sweet 7 year old girl and is now trying to pimp my daughter out as a stripper and lap dancer. That's when a parent should worry!

There is nothing but honor in waiting to have sex with the one you believe is your true love. If this young man was trying to be with another 19 year old, the parents would not be giving him such a hard time. Their attitude is bigotry pure and simple. I hope you guys find a way to work things out.

Do know that there is still much to learn about each other when you finally meet in person. No matter how much you love one another now... IT CAN BE DIFFERENT IN PERSON. Maybe different good or maybe not... At any rate thanks for opening up and sharing your life with us. Everyone here regardless of opinion means well and wishes you well. :)

I hear a lot of reasons why olderwomen and youger men shouldn't date.
The things I don't like hearing is when people communicate for a while and decide to finally meet, they just have sex and after that they don't see eachother for a while. But these are the same people who in the first place say they watch out for the person who just wants to have sex.
Just because OW date YM doesn't mean that the relationship won't last long. In fact, if I date a girl my own age, there is no guarantee that it would last any longer. I think that it is a special thing when a OW touches you on the arm she can get the butterflies goin', at least in my case.
OW rule, not because of there age, becuse they are women. And to all the women that are concerned with their bodies not living up to the standards of their YM...STOP. My ex lady friend had said things along those lines and it bothered me. In a way it is somebody putting something down that really turns me on. Real OW/YM relationships are something very very special.

Thanks yellowrose; in fact, thanks to everyone here; we finally have been able to get back into things emotionally... it still hurts to be separated, but at least we know that I am going to college there in the Fall :).