What to think and what to do

I debated posting this. Should I or not. But here goes.

The QUESTION I have is at the Bottom if you wish to skip the drama. and YES I am asking for advice so no debates on whether or not I asked for it. I get what I deserve.

Brief Background:

started going out with brian the end of November/begining of december
we got heavily involved almost right away

I found out about a long distance girlfriend when SHE got in touch with me. Once I found out about her he became totally honest about it. He's been having trouble extracting himself from her and their relationship although as of about 4 weeks ago he was done with all but a remnent friendship with her. I believe him based not only on his words but his actions around me.

However I also decided that all's fair in love and war so to speak and began to see a nice guy. I have gone out with TNG twice. He calls almost every day. He asks out in advance. He knows I am involved with someone else but that the relationship is up in the air. I have been doing the rules with him so we meet in public and there has been minimal physical contact. The other night TNG let his 5 yr old talk to me on the phone. I thought it a bit too soon but we talked about crayons so it was cool.

THE MEAT of the STORY:

Brian came looking for me on the first Saturday night I went out with TNG and when I wasn't home figured I was on a date and he told me he was upset and went out and got drunk I think he felt very sorry for himself and went home. I had been acting like a bit of an obsessive jerk with him for the previous few days and then the next day I backed off. Big time.

So on Monday he IMmed me asking if I was mad. I told him NO but I kept it cool. He didn't ask about my weekend and I didn't volunteer. I didn't call him. Normally I call him and he seems to prefer it that way.

Tuesday night he IMs me again and wants to know if I am even speaking to him. I tell him yes and that I am not mad. He asks me if I went out with the other guy and I told him yes and right away he assumes I am leaving him for this other guy. I'm not and I have no plans of it but try to convince Brian of that.

Weekend comes and I have a date again with TNG on Saturday night. I see Brian LATE Friday night all the way into Saturday afternoon and then I have leave to get ready for my date. Brian has plans to go to a bull roast so he's not sitting home pinning away for me anyway. I tell him to have fun. He is clearly NOT happy. He told me he wants to see me next weekend and the weekend after that and the weekend after that and the rest of the weekends after those too.

Well I get home from date at 11:30. Brian has been trying to find me. He's called the cell phone twice (I left it on silent) and is online bugging a girlfriend of mine as to how to get to me. The second I log in he ims me. Seems he ran out of gas and had to walk home. Would I come help him. I did. (I know I know not the rules but I did it). So I ended up spending the night with Brian and then we spent all day sunday together and took his daughter out to dinner.

he called Sunday night lonesome for me. He called monday and tuesday and wednesday (yesterday he called 3 times). I've been most sweet and pleasant with him. Easy to be with. The last few times I haven't said "I love you" first so he now thinks I am pulling away from him cause I have feelings for TNG. But that's not it at all.

I'm just giving him space to miss me and have his own space to make his own choice and not be forced into anything by me. He thinks I don't love him or want to be with him anymore. Yet he doesn't ask to see me during the week and hasn't firmed up our weekend plans yet. Just wants to be with me.

We have a banquet from his job tonight. I'll be meeting a lot of his co-workers for the first time. I already know his boss and his mom cause she works with him. I'm nervous but it should be fine it's not a very dressy event and I will probably be overdressed in a skirt and matching top.

If I back off he thinks I am leaving him and he doesn't seem to escalate his behavior to keep me. He's more of a "lay down and die and accept that I lost her" kind of guy. He's got a lot of self esteem problems and can't imagine what it is I see in him or why I want to be with such a loser (his words not mine)

NOW FOR THE QUESTION:

Should I continue to be cool and aloof and busy or should I go back to calling him and making him feel secure in my feelings for him.

It sounds to me (maybe I'm wrong) but it does sound as though you are just trying to protect your heart. It seems to me that you started going out with the other guy because Brian wasn't making you feel that he was really committed to your relationship ( you said "all's fair in love and war") and that you didn't expect to really like this other guy - yet now, here you are with Brian, who you have to take out the "Rules" book with, and the new guy, who is treating you really nicely and who maybe you like more than you thought you would. What does this all mean?? Who knows! I am just thinking that you really do love Brian, tried to teach him (and yourself) a lesson by going out with someone else, and the only thing that really changed is that now you have someone else to hang on to if Brian doesn't stick around. With the way things are with Brian, I would continue to see the other guy. But, of course, that's me. I hope that whatever you do, you remember to put your feelings first, because it sounds as if you are more worried about Brian's feelings - but isn't he the reason you started the other dating again? It's my belief, that leopards don't change their spots no matter how hard they try! I hope whatever you do, it will make YOU happy.

Sunlover thank you for your response.

Originally posted by sunlover02
It sounds to me (maybe I'm wrong) but it does sound as though you are just trying to protect your heart.

Well of course I am. Isn't that what this is all about? I don't want to get hurt anymore than I already have so you got that right.

Originally posted by sunlover02
It seems to me that you started going out with the other guy because Brian wasn't making you feel that he was really committed to your relationship ( you said "all's fair in love and war") and that you didn't expect to really like this other guy - yet now, here you are with Brian, who you have to take out the "Rules" book with, and the new guy, who is treating you really nicely and who maybe you like more than you thought you would. What does this all mean?? Who knows!

Yes I did start dating TNG because I didn't think I would be able to have a committed relationship with Brian. I did not think he would be able to act on and accept feelings I knew he had. (turns out I was 100% right about that)

I am trying to do the 'rules' as best I can. And thanks TRISH I did get that book (Why men love B*****S and it's wonderful.) I am naturally doing the rules with TNG as I don't have those deep feelings for him that I do for Brian. And yeah if Brian wasn't around I would probably end up seeing TNG for a bit. As to whether or not I would fall for him I can't say.

What I can say is doing the 'rules' for guys you don't love and want to love you is EASY. For me doing the 'rules' for guys you love is like trying to breathe water .


Originally posted by sunlover02
I am just thinking that you really do love Brian, tried to teach him (and yourself) a lesson by going out with someone else, and the only thing that really changed is that now you have someone else to hang on to if Brian doesn't stick around. With the way things are with Brian, I would continue to see the other guy. But, of course, that's me.

Yeah I really do love Brian. I've given this so much damn thought it's practically obsessive. And yeah PART of the reason I went out with TNG is to make Brian think about our relationship and what he really wants for us. I haven't yet stopped seeing the other guy but he has very limited availability and didn't ask for this week. But then I had already told him I was booked up this coming weekend.

Brian has made it clear he doesn't want me to see TNG but he still has not 100% cut ties with his other woman. He even said he wished I was dating someone else long distance. I told him tough. He told me there were local women who wanted to meet him but he told them no because he loves me. I really think he doesn't see this internet woman as 'The Real Deal' both from how he acts and the way he talks.


Originally posted by sunlover02
I hope that whatever you do, you remember to put your feelings first, because it sounds as if you are more worried about Brian's feelings - but isn't he the reason you started the other dating again? It's my belief, that leopards don't change their spots no matter how hard they try! I hope whatever you do, it will make YOU happy.

I am putting my feelings first. My question was not about making Brian feel better but was geared to helping me figure out HOW to keep Brian interested without smothering him. I know that men want to be in charge and he had complained once before he felt I was smothering him so I backed off. Now that I'm not chasing him and he's supposed to chase me he's jealous (and he has admitted to me that he is jealous) and he says he loves me and wants to be with me and build a life with me. So I get to hear what I want and yes he is being more attentive and he is keeping his promises more and more but then he thinks I don't love him. IF he thinks he's going to be alone he's going to want to find someone else and I don't want him to do that.

He talks about moving in this summer but I don't think he will acctually follow through with it. So yeah I'm guarding my heart. But I want so totally to give it to him. I just know better.

Nessa, I can't post a lot right now. I have to go out in a little bit. From my experience, there are some guys that want what they can't have. Then when they have it, they don't want it. It also takes longer for most guys to fall deeply in love... up to a year or two. I say be all over Brian but if he asks, tell him until he burns all his bridges and fully commits, you will not burn all your bridges. Continue to date the nice guy at least once a week. Be nice with him too except don't lead him on.

We are sometimes so drawn to the guy that brings drama into our lives that "nice" feels "boring". It's not, but it FEELS that way. These guys that give us trouble get our adrenalin going and we feel alive. It is usually the same 'ole daddy abandonment issue that we women frequently have. We MUST make this unavailable guy love us. Then we will feel worthwhile. It is a predictable cycle. I will get my thoughts together tonight and post the cycle. Bottom line, keep seeing Brian and keep seeing nice guy. More later. A hug to you Nessa. :) :) :)

Go Nessa GO!!!!!!
I´m glad for you. You are clear about what you want. Thats Good!!
Maintain your distance, make him take responsability on the relationship.
But as Sunlover said, the leopard never changes its spots......
but maybe it can erase some of them....

Be Strong!!!!

http://ilovedeniro.homestead.com/files/butterfly.gif

MIM

Hey Nessa...
You know, I was going to PM you to say this because I know someone will come along and completely slaughter me for saying this...but what the heck, we all get slaughtered on here once in a while.

SCREW THE STUPID RULES !!!!!!
You should do what you feel. I am just saying this next thing in general and not towards you Ness, but realtionships are not about rules and playing games to get someone to come closer or back away, get the desired response, etc. We are all just human beings with feelings and emotions, and we all handle them and react differently. SHEESH!

So my advice to you darlin is....If you feel like you should be a little distant for a while to protect yourself and your heart, being as he is still semi-involved with someone else, then you should. And however he reacts is how he reacts. How he feels about what you do for YOU is not your responsiblity, and how he reacts to how he feels about it is up to him. Shows what kind of guy he really is, how much he cares, etc.

Fact is, I don't think I would stop seeing the other guy until I was offered an exclusive committment. Why agree to be exclusive when he is not all the way willing yet? I don't really think it is right for him to kind of throw a guilt trip on you for seeing someone else when he is still somewhat seeing someone else. Kind of immature, but then a lot of people are and that does not make him a bad guy. Its just his way of letting you know what he wants. I think eventually if he really truly cares the way he says he does, then he will come to you wanting an exclusive relationship. However, this is all just my opinion.

Nessa, do what you feel is right. And keep it honest. Go with your gut. And either way you decide, put yourself first. And be happy. *smiles* I'm happy for you. I think you have made some healthy decisions lately, and I think you will continue to do so. *hugs* to ya, sweetie.

yellowrose said:

" From my experience, there are some guys that want what they can't have. Then when they have it, they don't want it. It also takes longer for most guys to fall deeply in love... up to a year or two. I say be all over Brian but if he asks, tell him until he burns all his bridges and fully commits, you will not burn all your bridges. Continue to date the nice guy at least once a week. Be nice with him too except don't lead him on.

We are sometimes so drawn to the guy that brings drama into our lives that "nice" feels "boring". It's not, but it FEELS that way. These guys that give us trouble get our adrenalin going and we feel alive. It is usually the same 'ole daddy abandonment issue that we women frequently have. We MUST make this unavailable guy love us. Then we will feel worthwhile. It is a predictable cycle. I will get my thoughts together tonight and post the cycle. Bottom line, keep seeing Brian and keep seeing nice guy."
***************

YR,

I think that the key is that Brian WANTED to be in love so he rushed into our relationship THINKING he was in love but that in the last few weeks he's really started FALLING IN LOVE and it's scary but he's opening up and accepting it more and more. I have to keep reassuring him that it's perfectly normal to not realize that you love someone until a few months down the road and that it's ok to fall more in love every day. Every time he tells me he's falling more and more in love with me he has such awe and wonder on his face. I don't know that he's ever experienced it. So yeah he's still falling but he let himself over the edge a few weeks back so things are progressing nicely. Explaining to him that he's NORMAL seems to help.
**************************

Mimosita said:

Go Nessa GO!!!!!!
I´m glad for you. You are clear about what you want. Thats Good!!
Maintain your distance, make him take responsability on the relationship.
But as Sunlover said, the leopard never changes its spots......
but maybe it can erase some of them....

Be Strong!!!!

***************************

Thanks Mimosita. I'm not sure that Brian's spots were ever that deeply tattooed on him. He never did seem comfortable with things until after the whole mess came out in the open. Seems to me he hates dating as much as I do and just wanted to fall in love as much as I did. He just forced it. I am making him be responsible for his actions and accept that his actions determine mine as well.
****************************

and darling Joannalee offered:


SCREW THE STUPID RULES !!!!!!
You should do what you feel. I am just saying this next thing in general and not towards you Ness, but realtionships are not about rules and playing games to get someone to come closer or back away, get the desired response, etc. We are all just human beings with feelings and emotions, and we all handle them and react differently. SHEESH!


___________
I know what you mean. It's not so much that I am actually doing the rules because Brian and I talk about the fact that I am backing off and giving him space. That's so NOT RULES. but they did help me see where my behavior was harming a potentially good relationship.

I don't want to play games but sometimes just doing what is right and giving him space feels so foreign it's like a game to me.

_____________


So my advice to you darlin is....If you feel like you should be a little distant for a while to protect yourself and your heart, being as he is still semi-involved with someone else, then you should. And however he reacts is how he reacts. How he feels about what you do for YOU is not your responsiblity, and how he reacts to how he feels about it is up to him. Shows what kind of guy he really is, how much he cares, etc.
______________

well we had time in the car last night driving to his work banquet to talk about it and we talked a lot about it. He's turning out to be a stand up guy. I had a gut feeling and I'm glad I followed my heart. He just needed some time to get used to the idea of being a couple.

I told him point blank last night that as long as he's not ready to make a full committment to me I will be seeing other people. He's not thrilled but he's asked me not to have a physical relationship with them and I think that is reasonable since we do have one. Besides I don't want to.

He's talking about moving in as soon as school lets out in June. Adn I'm ok with that. But until we have a set date and his folks know he's moving, I am not changing anything in my life. He is however making it hard to see TNG cause he is taking up Saturday night which is the only night TNG can get out.

But we did a lot of talking last night. A lot. At one point we were getting a bit ummm loud (we were in the car so it was ok) but not fighting and he asked me if we could please not fight about it. Well we weren't fighting but I see now that he can't deal with any sort of conflict without shutting down so I know what to do now... figure out how to broach those subjects that are hard for him without making him feel like I'm attacking him.
____________________


Fact is, I don't think I would stop seeing the other guy until I was offered an exclusive committment. Why agree to be exclusive when he is not all the way willing yet? I don't really think it is right for him to kind of throw a guilt trip on you for seeing someone else when he is still somewhat seeing someone else. Kind of immature, but then a lot of people are and that does not make him a bad guy. Its just his way of letting you know what he wants. I think eventually if he really truly cares the way he says he does, then he will come to you wanting an exclusive relationship. However, this is all just my opinion.
____________

Last night he said basically that but I told him until I was SURE I wasn't going to stop seeing others. He has a habit of saying what he thinks at the moment but then changing his mind and then he doesn't know how to tell me. He accepted that as a consequence of this behavior I will not stop seeing TNG until the trucks are packed LOL.

He truly does care and he does love me. I know that now. I see it in his actions. His words are nice and they haven't changed but the way he says them has changed. There is meaning there now. I can hear it. I see it in how he acts. He calls when he says he will call. He keeps his word. He looks me straight in the eye when he talks to me and doesn't hem and haw his words any more. The games are over. I feel so much more at peace now with our relationship. I feel a trust and security that I didn't feel 4 weeks ago. I seems so silly to say and the impact on the screen is not as intense as IRL but it's a big big difference. And all it did was make me love the big goof even more.
____________

Nessa, do what you feel is right. And keep it honest. Go with your gut. And either way you decide, put yourself first. And be happy. *smiles* I'm happy for you. I think you have made some healthy decisions lately, and I think you will continue to do so. *hugs* to ya, sweetie
___________

I am. Thank you for all your kindness. I am taking care of myself and in my case taking care of myself meant waiting out a good man who just had a bump in the road.

Hi Nessa. Here are my two cents (for what they are worth!)...

When you started dating Brian he was not exactly up front and honest with you and did not tell you he was dating another girl until you found out about it on your own. Seems like Brian wanted his cake and eat it too and I'm sure it hurt you when you found out he was dating another girl but you hung in there and still kept on dating him. When you backed off and decided to give Brian some space you met TNG and started to date him. You were honest to Brian and told him you were dating another guy. Naturally it was o.k. for Brian to have two or three women but Brian certainly didn't want you to have another guy! You haven't done anything wrong Nessa because you have been up front with Brian concerning TNG. Sometimes we all need a good kick in the pants to wake us up and help us realize what we have and that we don't want to lose it. Sounds like this is what's happened to Brian. My advice is to keep on dating both Brian and TNG until you are sure what Brian wants or to see if you can develop a good relationship with TNG. I think Brian needed to have his world shook up a bit. In the long run you will find out if Brian will settle down and start acting like a mature adult and if he doesn't you can just move on!

I wish you all the best Nessa.

Margaret

OH Margaret,

your two cents are worth a million dollars!!!!

makes PERFECT sense. and it's true very true and it's exactly what I am doing.

yeah even Brian admitted that what brought him to his senses was the realization that he ran a huge risk in losing me if he didn't give her up. And he says that it's over with her as far as a romance goes. I believe him. Now I just need him to give me a move in date and we are good to go.

Originally posted by midge123
Hi Nessa. Here are my two cents (for what they are worth!)...

When you started dating Brian he was not exactly up front and honest with you and did not tell you he was dating another girl until you found out about it on your own. Seems like Brian wanted his cake and eat it too and I'm sure it hurt you when you found out he was dating another girl but you hung in there and still kept on dating him. When you backed off and decided to give Brian some space you met TNG and started to date him. You were honest to Brian and told him you were dating another guy. Naturally it was o.k. for Brian to have two or three women but Brian certainly didn't want you to have another guy! You haven't done anything wrong Nessa because you have been up front with Brian concerning TNG. Sometimes we all need a good kick in the pants to wake us up and help us realize what we have and that we don't want to lose. Sounds like this is what's happened to Brian. My advice is to keep on dating both Brian and TNG until you are sure what Brian wants or to see if you can develop a good relationship with TNG. I think Brian needed to have his world shook up a bit. In the long run you will find out if Brian will settle down and start acting like a mature adult and if he doesn't you can just move on!

I wish you all the best Nessa.

Margaret

Originally posted by katmeup7
Nessa,

You can't fix someone with crappy self esteem. What kind of depth could there ultimately be in a relationship like that?

Just posing a question...

Kat

was it rhetorical? cause i'm gonna respond.

I didn't think I wanted to fix him. Only Brian can learn to love himself. But I see what his parents say to him and how people talk to him and he takes it but I know it must hurt him.

All I can do is love him the best I can and let him learn to trust himself, his feelings and me. I see changes in him. But just because he has been emotionally beaten down almost his entire life for lots of things doesn't mean I should not give him a chance.

I had really crummy self esteem for a long time and there are times I still do. I am willing to wait him out and see what happens with us. I have seen so many changes in Brian in the last few weeks. Growth in self-esteem needs time. I want to give him that time. What can that hurt?

Kat,

Yep. truer words were never spoken. It's so hard to watch his parents put him down or his boss. They do it and to his face too. He just laughs but that's gotta hurt.

He does say he's a loser but I think some of that may be due to an unmedicated chemical imbalance. His mom says he is bi-polar. I am not sure at this time and he doesnt have health insurance to cover a decent work up.

I have seen an major improvement in a lot of things with him recently. He's being more proactive in life. He's getting things done. He's learning to share feelings and stand up for himself.

Can we not talk about co-dependency. It's a sore spot for me. I know I worry about if I am co-dependant or not. But then I know I WANT him to be happy healthy and whole. I also know that lately things are so good. I feel good when I'm not with him and GREAT when I am.

OH and since my meds were adjusted things on my end of the world are much better too.


Originally posted by katmeup7
Nessa,

I agree that growth in self esteem takes time. Often it takes a lifetime!

I'm only going by what you said....that he himself calls himself a "loser." The problem with that is that on a fundamental level, he probably believes that. I had an ex husband like that. He always said that I was too good for him. Ultimately, that gave him an excuse to behave like a loser and perpetuate the idea, rather than change it.

Additionally, I have found that people who see themselves in a less than ideal light are a LOT of work. They constantly need to be shored up and reaffirmed as to their own value, when we all know that no one can do that for us but ourselves. If we don't believe we're worthy on some basic level, no one else is going to convince us.

It's nice to enhance someone else's life...that's what it's all about, but if it's codependency, well, buyer beware!

Kat

Sorry, I'm too tired to read this entire thread but I read the initial post and here's my advice:

Brian's a stalker. He's obviously insecure and lacks confidence. You don't want a guy with confidence issues, do you?

The nice guy is exactly that: a nice guy. You know what that says to me? You probably aren't really interested in him. I know you'll probably say, 'but I like nice guys'. Yeah, right. Ask any guy you know they'll tell you that being called a 'nice guy' is basically social emasculation. Nice guy land is where you go when your girlfriend dumps you or you get turned down for the prom. The first time a girl calls you a nice guy it's a compliment. The second time it becomes a thinly veiled, cliche insult.

Oh, and the rules thing... I personally wouldn't recommend it, but if you like it go for it. I never read the book myself but I once picked up a girl at a bookstore who was paging through it. One of the smoothest pickup lines I've ever had: I asked her about the book she was reading, she told me about how it's about rules for women to get boyfriends or husbands so I asked her to see if that stuff would work on me. She said ok and we went out on a date. She was really stuck-up, almost frigid. I didn't even get a goodnight kiss. To me getting shot down for the goodnight kiss is the end of any relationship. It's like an unwritten rule that if nobody got killed or arrested during the date you get a goodnight kiss. It's just implied. If you get turned down for the goodnight kiss it means you just got taken for a movie ticket and a free meal.

At any rate, you need to find somebody who has a bit more confidence than Brian. Maybe the nice guy, maybe not.

Good luck!

P.S. -- One more thing... (yeah, I'm using the edit button :p ) I know from some private messages that neither of these guys is SCA material, which I believe is grounds for dumping them to begin with. Personally, I don't trust a man who can't swing a broadsword. :)

Originally posted by PAYoungMan
Sorry, I'm too tired to read this entire thread but I read the initial post and here's my advice:

Brian's a stalker. He's obviously insecure and lacks confidence. You don't want a guy with confidence issues, do you?

Brian is so NOT a stalker. I've been mildly stalked do you have any idea what it means to be a stalker? I'm also insecure and lacking confidence so I guess he doesn't want me then either does he.




Originally posted by PAYoungMan
The nice guy is exactly that: a nice guy. You know what that says to me? You probably aren't really interested in him. I know you'll probably say, 'but I like nice guys'. Yeah, right. Ask any guy you know they'll tell you that being called a 'nice guy' is basically social emasculation. Nice guy land is where you go when your girlfriend dumps you or you get turned down for the prom. The first time a girl calls you a nice guy it's a compliment. The second time it becomes a thinly veiled, cliche insult.

ah but that may be what GIRLS do but not WOMEN. He is a nice guy. Yes there is no hot passion there. I like him. If I didn't love Brian I would be actively pursuing a relationship with TNG. It's not an insult or a cliche.


Originally posted by PAYoungMan
Oh, and the rules thing... I personally wouldn't recommend it, but if you like it go for it. I never read the book myself but I once picked up a girl at a bookstore who was paging through it. One of the smoothest pickup lines I've ever had: I asked her about the book she was reading, she told me about how it's about rules for women to get boyfriends or husbands so I asked her to see if that stuff would work on me. She said ok and we went out on a date. She was really stuck-up, almost frigid. I didn't even get a goodnight kiss. To me getting shot down for the goodnight kiss is the end of any relationship. It's like an unwritten rule that if nobody got killed or arrested during the date you get a goodnight kiss. It's just implied. If you get turned down for the goodnight kiss it means you just got taken for a movie ticket and a free meal.

Ummm the rules say you can kiss on the first date. So maybe you need to revamp the idea of the rules.

If I went out with you and didn't have the urge to kiss you and I didn't kiss you then you're saying I used you for dinner and a movie. You are way off base here.

Originally posted by PAYoungMan


ah but see I want to be with Brian. And if you had read more of the thread or any of the other ones you would understand a lot more.

I do appreciate your input and involvment however.


Originally posted by PAYoungMan
[B]P.S. -- One more thing... (yeah, I'm using the edit button :p ) I know from some private messages that neither of these guys is SCA material, which I believe is grounds for dumping them to begin with. Personally, I don't trust a man who can't swing a broadsword. :)

As to whether or not TNG is SCA or not remains to be seen. As for Brian, he is more than willing to go to SCA and other things that I am involved in that are off the beaten path and is willing to learn about them as well. And if I want to go without him he's cool with that too.

I'm not so deeply intrenched in it that I have to have a partner that is into it. I'm learning NASCAR Brian will learn Esoterica. Life is a journey.... we are trying it together.