Prenup

My sweetie and I are having serious discussions about marriage. We are in couples therapy in attempt to work out and discuss issues that we really should consider before taking the next step. The issue of prenuptial agreement came up and I'm dead set against it.

What are your thoughts on prenuptial agreement. Would you sign one? Do you think it signals a lack of trust in the other party?

For older women who are financially secure in relation to your partners, what would be your motivations for wanting a prenuptial agreement?

I am not sure I would have a prenup. It depends on how many assets I have. In my opinion, what is needed is a will that is detailed and set up in a way that my assets are divided the way I want them to be in the event of my death or divorce. My concern would be the surviving spouse fighting the terms of my will. That happens and there are times when the spouse wins. Also, in the event of divorce, if a prenup IS in place, that can assure that the other person doesn't get more than what the state would normally allow in a settlement agreement between the divorcing couple. There ARE people who marry for money and wealth. For that reason prenups became a popular way to avoid the gold digger to get his/her hands on the assets that they are not entitled to.

Remember, a prenup is a 2 way street. If your partner is insistent on having a prenup drawn up, mkae sure that your concerns and your rights are met as well. There are things that you might want protected as well. A prenup can even be drawn up and signed outlining the way you want to be treated as a spouse.

Would I sign a prenup? No.

In my mind it means that you're already thinking about divorce. Never a good way to go into a marriage...I think.

That being said....if you do agree to a prenup....get a lawyer...make sure it's fair for both parties....make sure your wants/needs are being met also!

Nadine.

Guinavere, he is wealthy. His two companies are going through major changes that will see them take off in a big way. His first marriage ended in a three year settlement battle and I understand that the experience has left him scarred. However, I do not think that his baggage should be offloaded onto me. There have been talk that I'm possibly with him for his money and his daughters have even made such statements. I think that by having a prenup, he will be validating the negative perception of our relationship.

He is not insisting on one, but he would prefer to have one so that he wouldn't have to go through the legal hell he went through if we divorced.

I just think that a prenup says "I don't really trust your motives, so sign this just in case",

Would I sign a prenup? No.

In my mind it means that you're already thinking about divorce. Never a good way to go into a marriage...I think.

That being said....if you do agree to a prenup....get a lawyer...make sure it's fair for both parties....make sure your wants/needs are being met also!

Nadine.

That's kinda how I feel:(

That's kinda how I feel:(

(((HUG)))

If he insists...what do you think you'll do?

Is it enough of an issue to be a dealbreaker for you?

Nadine.

What a great question GC!!! I've thought alot about this, actually given the people I've dated in the past. I came to the conclusion that if he was going to ask me to sign a pre-nup that he probably wasn't the right guy for me.

I know this may seem completely hard-headed, but my reasoning is this:

I have waited all these years so that I can find the right guy for me. This means I turned down offers in the hopes of finding just the right guy... the one I know for certain that I would never ever divorce. Now to me, signing a pre-nup would be a sign that I was acknowledging the possibility of divorce, and I just won't do that. So for me, a pre-nup is a deal breaker, but my situation is unique.

A friend of mine married into a very old family fortune, and she agreed to sign a pre-nup. I think that is one of the very few cases where I might have been willing to do it. In that case, I saw her husband protecting his family more than himself, which I thought was kind and caring of him.

Anyway, those are my thoughts...

(((HUG)))

If he insists...what do you think you'll do?

Is it enough of an issue to be a dealbreaker for you?

Nadine.


Well, at this point he's not insisting, but he's asked me to think about it. We will discuss it at our next therapy session, but he knows how I feel about it. I don't think his request signal that he loves me any less, neither do I doubt his commitment to our relationship. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I was wondering if my negative attitude towards prenup is unreasonable.

Deal breaker? I can't imagine my life without him and I don't wish to entertain that thought right now. He's not one to try to force me to do anything that I don't want to do, so I don't think it will cause any major problems. He recently found out that that I do have an issue with spending, so maybe that triggered the prenup. I'm not sure.

We are in a very good place in our relationship, so I'm sure we'll work this out.

What a great question GC!!! I've thought alot about this, actually given the people I've dated in the past. I came to the conclusion that if he was going to ask me to sign a pre-nup that he probably wasn't the right guy for me.

I know this may seem completely hard-headed, but my reasoning is this:

I have waited all these years so that I can find the right guy for me. This means I turned down offers in the hopes of finding just the right guy... the one I know for certain that I would never ever divorce. Now to me, signing a pre-nup would be a sign that I was acknowledging the possibility of divorce, and I just won't do that. So for me, a pre-nup is a deal breaker, but my situation is unique.

A friend of mine married into a very old family fortune, and she agreed to sign a pre-nup. I think that is one of the very few cases where I might have been willing to do it. In that case, I saw her husband protecting his family more than himself, which I thought was kind and caring of him.

Anyway, those are my thoughts...

You are just as idealistic as I am Zolie. One of his friends died in 2005 after being married for only 6months. His friend's wife has made all sorts of demands and created so much problems that the companies his friend owned are now struggling. His friend's adult children and the wife are embroiled in a bitter legal battle, meanwhile the companies are suffering; there was no will.

I understand why he may prefer a prenup, but I'm not willing to sign one at this time. Maybe if I were marrying Donald Trump:);not that I would want to, but someone with his kind of wealth.

I highly recommend a prenup. It will ensure the assets that you wish, go to your children, before your marriage. It is really the only way to control your estate.

I am an older woman with significant assets. When I got divorced, my lawyer said point blank, "You shoulda gotta prenup".

Let's face it, its not an admission of failure before the marriage, but rather logically planning for a possibility. Everyone gets ugly in a divorce, mark my words......

I'd definitely do it. There's plenty of time to be romantic and idealistic, but practicality has a place as well. Hardly anyone gets married thinking they're going to get a divorce. But a lot of them do, for all sorts of reasons, and they can be devastated financially in the process. For someone who has built up a lot of assets over the course of their life, particularly if they're nearing retirement, it would be foolish not to consider the possibility of divorce wiping all of that out, and without enough time to earn it back.

As for perceptions, I would gladly give any partner of mine the confidence that they're not going to lose anything financially if the relationship doesn't work out for whatever reason - that's one concern that I definitely wouldn't want them to have. And I'd be happy as well to show any doubters out there that I wasn't trying to gain financially out of the relationship.


Edit: In fact, I was just thinking about this a bit more and if I was marrying someone who had a lot of investments or other assets, I would be the one insisting on the prenup. I just wouldn't want that to ever be an issue within the relationship and I wouldn't want them to ever have to worry about it. If someone in that position didn't want a prenup I'd be really worried that they were insufficiently practical, actually.

I offered to sign a prenup with my YM if he wants. I have more assets than he personally does since I am older, established in my career; however, his parents believe I am only after him for their money. Now, if I wanted money, first I wouldn't work at a nonprofit (which they have a huge issue against), second I would take it from my OWN family which I'm pretty dang sure has more than his. Since I don't give a hoot about any money his family may have, I figured offering this was a no-brainer. We never discussed it further so I'm not sure he's even interested.

I do believe prenups feel a bit like setting the couple up for failure ... like giving permission from the beginning for the marriage to fail, but that's my personal opinion.

Having researched the issue, I would NEVER sign a prenuptial agreement that has clauses in there relating to personal issues, or ANYTHING that was not regarding financial/assets or at the most dealing with child custody. I have heard of some saying if one partner gained more than 20 lbs the other could divorce and take everything, things like that which have nothing to do with protecting assets. If I were ever presented with a crappy document such as that, it would immediately find its way into the trash.

Personally, I used to think the same way, but now when I think of it as a possibility in my future someday, I choose to look at it in a sense that a prenup is not just a paper that says "I don't trust you so sign it for future reference." I truly think it works both ways... we all want that fairy tale love, but in todays society you have to be realistic. People are sue happy and why risk losing everything you or a partner have over a potentially bad divorce, granted you don't want to consider it, but i think getting married and NOT thinking about it is really unrealistic, love is not perfect, people are not perfect, and I don't think a prenup is always a bad thing. If they're in place for both parties I think it takes a fair amount of trust to build one together, you can express your expectations in those kind of events and what you both think is a fair way to divy up the assests. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with it, especially considering, in the future YOU might come into some money, and say something bad happened, you wouldn't want him to try to come after you for support and allimony etc. I think signing is a responsible decision that says what's mine is mine, what's yours is yours and what's ours is ours. Exes can get especially vindicitve depending on what happened in the relationship or afterwards.... best not to take that chance. Just make sure if you sign anything you are comfortable with the deal and if at a later date couldn't you always change it? or ammend it? Obviously if he's making 5x more than he was making before the marriage, you might want to ammend that you get a higher percentage etc in the settlement and or whatever assistance might be needed and for how long etc. But while I think love is trust, I've also learned you can't always trust the ones you love.

As for perceptions, I would gladly give any partner of mine the confidence that they're not going to lose anything financially if the relationship doesn't work out for whatever reason - that's one concern that I definitely wouldn't want them to have. And I'd be happy as well to show any doubters out there that I wasn't trying to gain financially out of the relationship.

Edit: In fact, I was just thinking about this a bit more and if I was marrying someone who had a lot of investments or other assets, I would be the one insisting on the prenup. I just wouldn't want that to ever be an issue within the relationship and I wouldn't want them to ever have to worry about it. If someone in that position didn't want a prenup I'd be really worried that they were insufficiently practical, actually.

This is how I feel. I am the YW and my OM already has a house and makes 3 times what I do (although I have a very good paying job as well). He has said he doesn't want to do a pre-nup and he doesn't think he has anything to worry about with me. However, I did bring it up because he worked so hard and his house is very important to him. I thought giving him the security of a pre-nup might prevent relationship issues further down the line (I mean, let's face it we are bound to fight about something eventually). We did discuss finances and have verbally agreed to an arrangement that is fair to both of us. He would keep his house and I would get back the portion of my money (with a reasonable rate of interest) that I would have invested into the house up to that point. I would certainly be willing to sign a pre-nup to this effect.

Pre-nups are only used in cases of separation or divorce, which we are not planning to do. The most important things are listing each other as the beneficiary on our wills, retirement accounts, investments, etc. That way my family can't interfere if I go first, and his son cannot dispute anything if he goes first.

I wanted to say further that I don't think having a prenup sets your marriage up for failure any more than wearing a seatbelt sets you up for getting into a car accident. It's just a bit of protection for everyone just in case. And possibly, (note that I have no data on this so take it as idle speculation) a couple who gets the practical stuff covered might be more likely to have a successful marriage (which requires lots of practicality) than people who go into a marriage idealistically, thinking they won't ever have problems serious enough to really threaten the relationship. More practical people may be more able to deal with major problems when they do come up and more willing to take that sort of thing in stride. So I don't think tempering a bit of the romantic enthusiasm many people have at the outset of a relationship or marriage is necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks for the responses, they've got me thinking. I do understand the reasoning behind his request, but when do I stop trying to prove that I'm with him because of him, not because of his money. I feel like somehow, I'm on trial. In the past when I've asked him how does he feel about the fact that some people think I'm with him because of money, he said that he knows me so that doesn't bother him and I shouldn't let that bother me either. This request however, has left me wondering ... In some sense I feel like if you don't trust me then do not marry me. I have no protection against my heart, yet I am completely committed to him. There's no price tag for my love and that's all I bring to this union nothing more, but it's worth more than any material asset!

PP, he's a very practical person, quite the opposite of me really and that has worked mainly to our advantage as we balance out each other. He has stated that the prenup is not a condition to our wedding as we will be married with or without the prenup, but he would like for us to discuss expectations and plan for any eventualities just as we are doing with other issues such as illness, retirement etc.

He says that the prenup is to protect both of us not just him as he wouldn't want me to be embroiled in a legal battle with his daughters in the event that he dies. As for Wills, he said he will definitely have that drawn up but wills can be contested in court.

His daughters do not like me and I'm not sure if that will change so he does have a point. My mom thinks that nothing is wrong with a prenup as long as it is fair. She insists however, that I discuss the issue with a good lawyer before signing anything.

I think prenuptial agreements are reasonable and I vote for them. Specially when the individuals come to the marriage with different sets of assets.

In my country, all marriages, every single one, is registered under a mini-pre-nup agreement.

When you are getting married you are asked if:

1. you want to share all assets you own, or
2. if you want to share all assets you accumulate as of your marriage date, or
3. if you want to keep all assets acquired before and during the marriage separate.

In cases 2 and 3 you are asked to provide a list of your current assets.

This is very useful because it forces the couples to discuss these issues before getting married and makes pre-nups a mandatory issue.

If I were you GC, I would certainly not want any of his previously acquired assets. You are just starting your life, you will soon graduate from college and have your own career and work towards your own professional goals, and accumulate your own wealth and assets. However, if he expects you to stay at home and become a housewife, then he certainly has to provide for you, in case of a divorce, since you wont be able to acquire financial stability on your own. You need to negotiate things like you will get to keep the house where you live or he should provide an apartment for you in case of separation. Also, if you have a child, you must make sure this child has the same rights as the pre-existing children.

I think prenuptial agreements are reasonable and I vote for them. Specially when the individuals come to the marriage with different sets of assets.

In my country, all marriages, every single one, is registered under a mini-pre-nup agreement.

When you are getting married you are asked if:

1. you want to share all assets you own, or
2. if you want to share all assets you accumulate as of your marriage date, or
3. if you want to keep all assets acquired before and during the marriage separate.

In cases 2 and 3 you are asked to provide a list of your current assets.

This is very useful because it forces the couples to discuss these issues before getting married and makes pre-nups a mandatory issue.

If I were you GC, I would certainly not want any of his previously acquired assets. You are just starting your life, you will soon graduate from college and have your own career and work towards your own professional goals, and accumulate your own wealth and assets. However, if he expects you to stay at home and become a housewife, then he certainly has to provide for you, in case of a divorce, since you wont be able to acquire financial stability on your own. You need to negotiate things like you will get to keep the house where you live or he should provide an apartment for you in case of separation. Also, if you have a child, you must make sure this child has the same rights as the pre-existing children.

That's an interesting policy, Sheila. As for staying at home vs career, well that is not as clear cut. I will not be pursuing a professional life as aggressively as I would have if we were not together. This is mainly due to the age gap and the fact that we want to spend as much time as possible together. If I were to pursue my career aggressively, it would mean very long hours away from home. I plan to spend the first three years at home after our child is conceived. He doesn't ever plan to retire completely, he only plans to slow down as the need arises barring serious illness. During the years when he slows down, he will expect me to have a relaxed work schedule, that will allow us to travel together and basically spend time together.

I vote yes for pre-nups. Idealistically pre-nups wouldnt be needed but in the actual world especially with people who have built up wealth or a business or have assets that they do not want to lose, I think that a pre-nup is a reasonable request.

I agree with your mother get yourself a good lawyer that will protect your rights and any future children that you might have and I also agree with your fiance who says that a pre-nup will protect you from his adult children. He sounds like he knows that his daughters will contest any will later on and since you already know that they dont like you, it sounds as if he is trying to head off any future trouble between you and his daughters when he isnt around any more to protect you.

If it isnt about his money then signing a pre-nup shouldnt be such a big deal as long as your mother said you have a good lawyer that makes sure that the conditions in the prenup are fair to both of you.

I say pre-nup is a good thing. If your husband dies unexpectedly, then the pre-nup will cover you instead of his daughter's battling you for his money. You could say something along the lines, what about a will? You never know.
I never thought I would leave my ex and we would be with another forever and ever...but things got ugly. Good thing we didn't get married. We all hope positive things for the future, but you may never know when the winds of change will blow.

... Everyone gets ugly in a divorce ...

I didn't get ugly. I remained true to myself and let kindness be my guide.

Goodchild, I would ask your OM to prepare the prenup and see what's on his mind, he may only be asking for things you would do voluntarily anyway, in which case his prenup is a non-issue. Sign it & move on.

I live in a community property state. California is kinda infamous for how it's divorces have financially ruined people. I've had two divorces here myself. So I've come to accept the idea of community property, and if I love somebody and marry them I have no problem with the concept that all that I have is their's as well. I would also like to mention that I've seen prenups overturned here, when the stipulations of the prenup are opposed to state law.

You know where I stand in regards to compassion, consideration and kindness. I'm not a materialistic person. My possessions aren't that important to me, so long as I live comfortably, the rest is just excess, you can't take it with you when you pass away.

To use a parable from the bible, if I am somebody's pearl of great price, am I not worth more than anything else to that person? If they are trying to hold onto their possessions with one hand, they will not be able to hold onto me tightly with the one remaining. I would want both hands holding tightly onto me.

Scott2075 brings up a good point, that a prenup can be written in your favor. If this is your OM's intention it is a good thing.

I gotta go, wish I had more time, take care, George

Would I sign a prenup? No.

In my mind it means that you're already thinking about divorce. Never a good way to go into a marriage...I think.

That being said....if you do agree to a prenup....get a lawyer...make sure it's fair for both parties....make sure your wants/needs are being met also!

Nadine.

I have to agree with you, Nadine.

I listened to a lot of Suzee Orman -financial guru- while I was single for 5 years after my divorce, and she ALWAYS says that women with assets (haven't really paid attention to her suggestions for men with assets, although I think they'd be the same) should absolutely have a pre nup in place prior to marrying.

Before Jake even proposed, we'd discussed this. He knew I was set on following her advice should anyone ever want to marry me in the future:tongue2:... He understood totally: I have major assets that are literally the basis of my financial livlihood, should I ever find myself single again! It would just be crazy to not make sure those are secure at my age. After my divorce from my exhb, I saw how the division of assets can break a person (emotionally and financially), and it almost did me in. Here's the truth: I never in a million years thought I'd divorce my first husband when we first got married 22 years earlier...but things sometimes change, unfortunately.

Jake and I don't plan on divorcing, but on working things out always...so, the pre nup will most likely just be a little "peace of mind" document for me with no harm done anyway.

Like Sheila's example, we basically set up our pre nup so that we would both leave the marriage with what we brought into it...and then divide what we acquired together, should we divorce. Fair...

I have to say, Jake's attitude about signing the pre nup and working it out together made me respect and love him even more! It showed that he valued my financial security and wanted to protect me from bad things in the future.
But that's just me:yes:

Okay...it's almost midnight...gotta kiss my honey and welcome in the New Year !!!!!!:D

All the responses have helped me, so please keep them coming. I have always thought of prenup as a negative thing. I've never seen one, but because I've always heard about it in the media when celebrities are divorcing, it has always had a negative connotation for me.

I brought this up here because our counseling session is on Friday and having done some research on line, I got mixed reviews of prenups. The information I found though did get me wondering if I was being too idealistic and emotional about the issue. Special K, I did read an article by Suzie Orman on prenup and she strongly suggested prenups for both men and women, especially for second marriages where children from previous relationships are involved.

My Sweetie is a good, kind man and he has always placed my interest first, so I don't see why this would change now. I will certainly express my concerns and reservations in our counseling session and decide what to do thereafter.

I would really like to hear from anyone who has signed a prenuptial agreement or would require one if they were to get married. Again, thanks for the responses, they have been a big help!:)

I have only skimmed the replies, so if I am repeating what others have said, please excuse me. The point was made that the pruptial agreement protects both parties. Since you asked your question of the older women on this board, let me tell you my story. I married my husband without any sort of prenuptual agreement. The marriage was supposed to last forever and neither of us had any assets to protect, nor did we expect any big financial windfall in our futures. I worked my tail off, went to medical school and he chose a much less lucrative career path. We financial supported each other through the process of getting our educations, both of which included doctorate degrees. That was OK, because the marriage wasn't supposed to end. What's mine is yours...yada yada yada.

Well, the marriage did end after 27 years and because the state I live in tries to be blind to gender when it comes to divorce, as the larger bread winner, I have to pay my ex substantial alimony for the next seven years. This isn't because he supported me at the expense his own career or anything...its all tossed into a computer and out pops a number. We had always agreed that the fair way for people to divorce if they were two independent individuals was 50-50, but that damned computer didn't see it that way and my ex was nasty about money. You have no idea how you would feel about this until it happens. To have to pay someone that you personally feel no financial obligation toward is YUCK!

The point is, you never know what the future holds, so its wise to deal with all contingencies ahead of time. My YM and I have talked about marriage and both of us agree there will be a prenuptual. For me its to protect my retirement. For him its about protecting his creative media. But over all, its about us removing money from the the equation that is our relationship. It helps to eliminate the "Does he love me for my money?" thing that looms large in many AG relationships. And to that end, my Will, will be a private matter between myself and my attorney.

You only sign a prenup if you completely trust your partner that he loves you and takes care of you no matter what. By this, I mean that he continues to love you, wish you the best and wants to help you if you need it even after a divorce. This is what I saw and still see in the eyes of the man I marry. I am not against prenup, you sign it now and change its term in a few years as your join assets grow, you can also legally terminate it any time as long as both parties agree. If you are going to have one make sure you feel comfy with the terms and contents of it. Make sure that it protects both of you. My husband's ex girl friend of 5+ years left him because he wanted them to have one. Everyone is different, and I'm not going to judge anyone. You have been together 6 years you know him better than anyone follow your instincts.

To summarize why I agreed to have one:
I knew my OM very little when I decided to marry him. But I trusted him more that all the men I dated in the past. Three days before he left my country to come to US, that was after three months of dating and being together, he gave me a piece of paper that said one of his houses would go to me if he died before we were together again.

Good child PM me if you need to talk about it more.

2. Since he does not have any children from previous relationships, his trust states that everything goes to me when he passes away. He will be a good father to our child when we have one.

3. In case of a divorce, I would never want to take any of his properties that he earned before he even met me.

4. I'm hard working I can support myself.

5. I am not a spenthrift but I have no doubt that he would not complaint if I need to spend the cash he earns.