What has happened to our Country

Just WOW........maybe we should keep indulging our children and giving them "time out" when they act selfishly:confused::rolleyes:
Or better yet....keep making more violent games and RUDE dialog, which passes for humor, in our television shows and movies!!!!!!!

Bystanders Ignore Hit-and-Run Victim
By STEPHEN SINGER,AP
Posted: 2008-06-06 07:09:34
Filed Under: Nation News
HARTFORD, Conn. (June 5) - A 78-year-old man is tossed like a rag doll by a hit-and-run driver and lies motionless on a busy city street as car after car goes by. Pedestrians gawk but do nothing. One driver stops briefly but then pulls back into traffic. A man on a scooter slowly circles the victim before zipping away.
The chilling scene - captured on video by a streetlight surveillance camera - has touched off a round of soul-searching in Hartford, with the capital city's biggest newspaper blaring "SO INHUMANE" on the front page and the police chief lamenting: "We no longer have a moral compass."

"We have no regard for each other," said Chief Daryl Roberts, who released the video this week in hopes of making an arrest in the daylight accident last Friday that left Angel Arce Torres in critical condition.

The hit-and-run took place about 5:45 p.m. in a working-class neighborhood close to downtown in this city of 125,000.

In the video, Torres walks in the two-way street just blocks from the state Capitol after buying milk at a grocery. A tan Toyota and a dark Honda that is apparently chasing it cross the center line, and Torres is struck by the Honda. Both cars then dart down a side street.


See How It HappenedCBSCaptured by a streetlight surveillance camera, 78-year-old Angel Arce Torres is shown here crossing a two-way street near downtown Hartford, Conn., last week.
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Several cars pass Torres as a few people stare from the sidewalk. Some approach Torres, but most stay put until a police cruiser responding to an unrelated call arrives on the scene after about a minute and a half.

The police chief told The Hartford Courant that he was unsure whether anyone called 911.

"Like a dog they left him there," said a disgusted Jose Cordero, 37, who was with friends Thursday not far from where Torres was struck. Robert Luna, who works at a store nearby, said: "Nobody did nothing."

One witness, Bryant Hayre, told the Courant he didn't feel comfortable helping Torres, who he said was bleeding and conscious.

The accident - and bystanders' callousness - dominated morning radio talk shows.

"It was one of the most despicable things I've seen by one human being to another," the Rev. Henry Brown, a community activist, said in an interview. "I don't understand the mind-set anymore. It's kind of mind-boggling. We're supposed to help each other. You see somebody fall, you want to offer a helping hand."

The victim's son, Angel Arce, begged the public for help in finding the driver. "My father is fighting for his life," he said.

The hit-and-run is the second violent crime to shock Hartford this week. On Monday, former Deputy Mayor Nicholas Carbone, 71, was beaten and robbed while walking to breakfast. He remains hospitalized and faces brain surgery.

"There was a time they would have helped that man across the street. Now they mug and assault him," police chief said. "Anything goes."

Councilman Matthew Ritter said police can do only so much.

"The citizens are the city," he said. "Everybody has a part to play. Call 911 and reach out."


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2008-06-05 16:57:47

Extremely disturbing! I hope my country never comes to this, although it's slowly heading in this direction. :(

Just.....wow! :eek: Un-freakin-believable!

I hope it is not because he is Hispanic. :confused:

no sheila it is not...
it is a "bad" section of hartford, also know as fartford on the local radio station now, but come to think of it, very little good section left in hartford. anyways, how it is looking now...it was two cars, assuming stolen, and they were "playing" with each other joy riding. as of today, still no arrests.
there is no excuse for them, the by standers, the other drivers, other then callous and indifferent, self absorbed, low lifes.
NO one called 911... (one by stander said he didn't have his cell phone...) HELLO???????????
a cruiser responding to another call came upon it....

hartford is on the top 10 list of the FBI for crime in the US....
still, absolutely no fornicating excuse....
i avoid hartford at all cost....

to get more perspective...last summer, hartford ...5 out of 7 nights, there was a street murder...i'm sure this summer will be a repeat.

don't get me going on this....

I figured you'd know about this!
Even in the 80's Hartford was no picnic.
Do people even comprehend how much violence is in this country right now.....you do not even want to watch the DC news :(
NYC is Disneyland compared to so many cities and towns throughout America and....it's not "Disneyland" :(
It just boggles my mind how no-one, esp in government, had the foresight to see that it was coming to this and did/do nothing.
It is so obvious to me that taking the humanity out of so much of ones daily life was/is bound to cause people to become inhuman.

i lived in hartford in the 70's... so yup jodey, not a picnic.

i blame "them"... i blame them who assume no accountability for their actions or NON actions. it is not a case of a hand UP... a lot expect/demand a hand out....for life. and THAT i feel is where we have gone wrong, people expect government to step in...provide what some will not do for themselves. not "my" problem, government will "pat, pat" and make sure i get my hand out....

i told you! don't get me going!

i blame "them"... i blame them who assume no accountability for their actions or NON actions. it is not a case of a hand UP... a lot expect/demand a hand out....for life. and THAT i feel is where we have gone wrong, people expect government to step in...provide what some will not do for themselves. not "my" problem, government will "pat, pat" and make sure i get my hand out....

That's along the lines of my thoughts as well. And to be clear, I don't think this is an issue about socioeconomic class, either. People of all stripes learn to act like helpless children under the guidance of a paternalistic state. It's not the government's responsibility (nor should it be) to make sure people look out for themselves and for other people. Society is separate from government - but more and more it's coming to the point where everything is left to the responsibility of "authorities," without anyone seeming to realize that we are all the authorities of our own lives. If something needs to be done, do it. Don't stand around waiting for someone else to come along.

That's hideous. :(

I was always under the impression if you found an injured person and did not call for help, you could be charged with a crime.

I mean, especially the people who stopped and looked at him, or circled him..could they not get in trouble?

Did this man pass away?

the man, angel, is in critical condition and paralyzed. no arrests, no information. the state has offered $10,000 for conviction.
case of knowing something, but keeping your mouth shut. said state of society, and pretty much hartford. there were also two drive by shootings that happened in hartford along with this hit and run.

soooo....make all your "excuses" for the "poor people" who just don't have the "opportunity" ....but this is the sad reality....
i'm suppose to feel sorry for them?????

*nods* I agree. There is no excuse for this kind of cruelty.

the man, angel, is in critical condition and paralyzed. no arrests, no information. the state has offered $10,000 for conviction.
case of knowing something, but keeping your mouth shut. said state of society, and pretty much hartford. there were also two drive by shootings that happened in hartford along with this hit and run.

soooo....make all your "excuses" for the "poor people" who just don't have the "opportunity" ....but this is the sad reality....
i'm suppose to feel sorry for them?????


You are supposed to feel sorry for the ones who get run over walking home from the store....:o

And, seriously, yes, you should feel sorry for the poor people, who don't have great opportunities, who work hard and still can't make ends meet.....not sure what can be DONE about it, but poor losers and rich losers are cut from the same mold and don't deserve your sympathy....poor hard workers and rich hard workers deserve our respect - and our sympathy if they fall on hard times.....just my 2 cents :o

soooo....make all your "excuses" for the "poor people" who just don't have the "opportunity" ....but this is the sad reality....
i'm suppose to feel sorry for them?????
What does this have to do with poor people or opportunity? This could have happened anywhere, in any neighborhood. Can you really not imagine a bunch of suburbanites gazing over their Starbucks at some injured person and not being willing to help? That's what this is about. It has nothing to do with class or crime rates or any of that. It's about someone who needed help and a bunch of people who were not willing to do anything about it. It doesn't even matter why he needed help. The crime aspect of this has nothing at all to do with the fact that people stood around waiting for someone else to fix something, and that has nothing at all to do with their social status.

And speaking of "poor people," I do feel sorry for the fact that government run social programs often lead people into a life of dependency and destroy their self respect, and often make it very difficult to get out from under that dependency. It's a tragedy. I'm still not sure what that has to do with this story, though.

I read on cnn that the police have released several 911 calls made after the hit and run crash...I didn't listen to them b/c I don't like to hear that stuff, but yea, apparently some people DID at least call 911.

initial report was there was no calls...

hartford is 30 miles away from me... i have that "crap" coming into my town...and YES! it is a segment of society. the low lifes and we all know who and what i'm talking about. and no, i will not feel sorry for them, they have refused their opportunities. open your eyes...they have made their choices.
the angels who have done no harm, have helped themselves in life, are a vital part of our society....the ones who hit him, personally i have no use for nor sympathy . find them pretty useless.

initial report was there was no calls...

hartford is 30 miles away from me... i have that "crap" coming into my town...and YES! it is a segment of society. the low lifes and we all know who and what i'm talking about. and no, i will not feel sorry for them, they have refused their opportunities. open your eyes...they have made their choices.
the angels who have done no harm, have helped themselves in life, are a vital part of our society....the ones who hit him, personally i have no use for nor sympathy . find them pretty useless.
Who even suggested sympathy for the hit and run drivers or even the people who didn't help this guy? It sounds like you're arguing against something nobody else is arguing for.

the orginal post was in regard to those that did the hit and run, and those that did nothing. that is what i was addressing as the ones who will have an excuse and blame "circumstances".
the low lifes...

I understand what Chris is saying......when you live close to a place that your afraid to walk the streets, it can make you a little angry.
Still, I am, since my injuries, one of those poor people getting social security, etc...
I really do believe that it is the decline of morals in our country.
Poor people during the great depression didn't behave towards their fellow "man" this way!
Look at what has become acceptable humor in our nation.....even childrens cartoons are filled with sarcasm (sp?), rude behavior, and selfishness.
Video games where blood and death prevail.
Many children these days do not even believe that they will live to adulthood :(
An economy so frightening that even I have considered a life of crime from time to time.
Good families having to work 2-3 jobs and are still not making it.
No-one at home taking care of or teaching their children values.
School systems that, for the most part, are substandard and maybe one out of five teachers is actually doing a good job.
I could go on!
I blame the people of this country for turning a blind eye to things that do not effect them personally.
I blame the government for adding to this problem with their lies, war mentality, and all around ineffectivness.......look at Katrina as a prime example!
Ok...that is my opinion.....
Carry on!
Blessings, TD

and just to throw into the mix....who is going to ask McCain and Obama to outline EXACTLY what policies, programs and initiatives they are going to use to address these serious social issues? Now would be a good time to get thier answers so you could all vote for the one who was seriously going to reshape society and its values in your country.

and just to throw into the mix....who is going to ask McCain and Obama to outline EXACTLY what policies, programs and initiatives they are going to use to address these serious social issues? Now would be a good time to get thier answers so you could all vote for the one who was seriously going to reshape society and its values in your country.

The things they say while campaigning and the things they do while in office are VERY VERY different. The only thing that will re-shape society is personal responsibility, compassion and random acts of kindness....things as tiny said, are sorely lacking in people's hearts any more. Until people change themselves, no amount of "help" will change them. That is true in any relationship...parent/child, bf/gf, one person/big government.....

I have to respectfully disagree with you Epo.....government has the potential to shape ethics and accountability through funding and programs. Shape and not control. As people have mentioned the social security system appears to have engendered a hand out mentality, whether thats true or not, I dont know, here it certainly has. So changes to the work ethic can be achieved through differences to the social security act. If people cant get adequate healthcare they have less opportunity to participate fully in all aspects of society. There is an aging workforce, so training young people in areas of need through funded or supported placements ensures a workforce/taxation system that can support older people, health, welfare etc....a caring society is one that has opportunity for showing it cares through support for benevolence, altruism, philanthropy etc...

government is about leadership...if you have a leader who espouses war and hatred you develop a societal attitude that reflects that, it is "allowed". If you have a leader who pushes capitalism without philanthropy you have a "me" society ie whats in it for me, how much can I get out of it.

If you have leadership that cares about people and how policies impact on the everyday lives of the population you will develop a caring society. So the style and type of leadership is important and I would want to know how the next leader is going to bed down social change to make sure your country has a chance to redress things like the economy, the poor access to health care, the capacity to find a job that pays a living wage, free childcare,paid maternity leave, workers rights etc etc

Free, Beth is correct :(
Imagine working your butt off all your life to make ends meet and then getting sick or injured and having nowhere to go b/c you don't have insurance.
Or worse.....having a sick child and having to tell them that you can do nothing b/c you cannot afford to pay a doctor.
People in this country are dying every minute b/c they cannot afford treatment.
Hell....many cannot even afford gas to get to the doctor!
Or food, let's talk about that.....people are not eating well b/c they cannot afford GOOD, healthy foods....even the basics have gone up to become almost unaffordable.
I cannot imagine what it would be like to see all of this from a child's point of view :confused:
I grew up watching the Vietnam War on TV while eating my morning breakfast but at least I still saw empathy and HOPE in people that I really do not see in todays society.
We ARE a third world country here but too many refuse to see it.
American arrogance knows no boundries....IMHO!

I have to respectfully disagree with you Epo.....government has the potential to shape ethics and accountability through funding and programs. Shape and not control. As people have mentioned the social security system appears to have engendered a hand out mentality, whether thats true or not, I dont know, here it certainly has. So changes to the work ethic can be achieved through differences to the social security act. If people cant get adequate healthcare they have less opportunity to participate fully in all aspects of society. There is an aging workforce, so training young people in areas of need through funded or supported placements ensures a workforce/taxation system that can support older people, health, welfare etc....a caring society is one that has opportunity for showing it cares through support for benevolence, altruism, philanthropy etc...

government is about leadership...if you have a leader who espouses war and hatred you develop a societal attitude that reflects that, it is "allowed". If you have a leader who pushes capitalism without philanthropy you have a "me" society ie whats in it for me, how much can I get out of it.

If you have leadership that cares about people and how policies impact on the everyday lives of the population you will develop a caring society. So the style and type of leadership is important and I would want to know how the next leader is going to bed down social change to make sure your country has a chance to redress things like the economy, the poor access to health care, the capacity to find a job that pays a living wage, free childcare,paid maternity leave, workers rights etc etc


And I have to heartily agree with you :p but.....we don't get those types of leaders here in America! Sorry to be so cynical, but what is the point in getting all excited about promises that a politician makes and then NEVER delivers???

In my heart, I think Obama is our best chance, but do I think he will be able to right this sinking ship? No......:( I honestly do not.

Free....I wish that were true!
I'll give you an example.........Jimmy Carter!
He was/is a very kind and caring man.....he was completely ineffective as a president though.
Fact is, our government is, and has been, such a greedy political, machine that I would be hard pressed to believe in anyone who had to climb the ladder to the point of even being able to AFFORD to run for office.
IMO....they all can and have been "bought"!

Free, Beth is correct
Imagine working your butt off all your life to make ends meet and then getting sick or injured and having nowhere to go b/c you don't have insurance.
Or worse.....having a sick child and having to tell them that you can do nothing b/c you cannot afford to pay a doctor.
People in this country are dying every minute b/c they cannot afford treatment.
Hell....many cannot even afford gas to get to the doctor!
Or food, let's talk about that.....people are not eating well b/c they cannot afford GOOD, healthy foods....even the basics have gone up to become almost unaffordable.

...that is why I suggest you all start asking serious questions of these two people long before November....I hear you Epo about your cynicism but could it be that your political machine is so unused to being challenged by the population, and so into spin and rhetoric, that anserwing demands for detail on HOW they will achieve what they say they will do is a foreign concept.

I agree with you Jodey that the USA has aspects of a third world culture but surely it can be salvaged and repaired. There are so many dichotomies it makes the rest of the world nervous and scared.....why, in the land of opportunity, do so many have no opportunity? And what is the next generation of leaders going to do about shaping a civic society?

LOL....this is not the land of opportunity anymore!
When I was in Bulgaria, this past Feb., I had a 17 year old boy ask me how we "allowed" things here to get so bad and why do we not fight these powers that be :(
I had no answer.....we have no freedom fighters here!
The last one was Ethan Allen and most people just think that is just the name of a furniture company:confused:
I was amazed by watching the news over there.....we don't get that type of HONESTY on our TV stations here!
It IS that bad over here and if others are not aware of it.....they are not open to seeing what is really happening all around them!
I believe in the right to have a gun but, with the state of the morals in this country, not too many are fit to carry a weapon but.....we are, or have become, a nation of violence, substandard education, illness, greed, etc.... and still have enough arrogance to snub our noses at reality :(
Personally, I am out of here as soon as I can figure out exactly what my plan is and how to make it viable!

The role of government is to provide security so that people can live their lives the way they see fit. If someone is causing harm to another person, then the government has a role to protect the individual rights of that person. It's the people in a society who have a responsibility to deal with each other in a responsible and peaceful manner. Government cannot and should not mandate kindness or compassion. It was government that promoted and carried out genocide of Native Americans, protected slavery as an institution, mandated segregation in public places, made laws reducing the individual rights of women and homosexuals, and puts people in prison for nonviolent crimes, which has a devastating, long-term effect on their physical, mental, emotional, and financial well-being. The only way government has ever promote any change is by putting people into groups and catering to one group or another, usually based on how powerful they are as a voting bloc. How does this not lead to a society where people are pitted against each other and refuse to see each other as equals deserving respect? We are set against each other by government. How is the same entity that causes the problem going to solve that problem?

Pink I just want to preface this by saying my experience and expectations of government are very different to yours.

I agree completely with what you say here

The role of government is to provide security so that people can live their lives the way they see fit.

It is exactly my point that government has to have methods of shaping societal mores, through legislation, laws etc. Each government is elected on the will of the people and will be reflective of the expectations of the majority at that point in time. So government does have a role. If, in the case of Angel, a society that believes it is ok to not care, who has that reflected by a government that is not representative of them, will not care.

If government provides for people who cannot provide for themselves,and is not punitive towards them, it is a caring government.There is a lot of research supporting government intervention in poverty through social programs which improve literacy, living skills, reduced rates of abuse and neglect of children, employment prospects, better mental health. Public housing works. People care more because they are not using all their energy just to survive.

The only way government has ever promote any change is by putting people into groups and catering to one group or another, usually based on how powerful they are as a voting bloc.

I dont really understand your voting or political system but here we have a lot of independent parties, who represent interest groups, and who get elected and provide a balanced parliament. It isnt as expensive to get elected, because we only have one day and everyone has to vote. So the voting bloc thing doesnt really apply, because it may not be the government of the day who has the power in the senate, or even in the lower house.


Anyway no critique on your system or government. What I heard people saying was the way things look in the US right now isnt very positive and so things like the Angel incident werent unexpected in some parts. Here we would expect government to provide leadership and start a public commentary in the press and media and amend legislation and policy to address the causes. If they use our taxes on social programs thats ok.

morals, or lack of, is taught at home. i blame parents.... has nothing to do with economy, school, country, inner city... i've seen some mighty "poor" hard working people raise responsible children. we have allowed society to be an "anything goes" and "get out of my way".
turn off the tv and send your kid to cut the elderly neighbors grass...

Parents, children, everyone is part of society. Morals are only taught at home if they are understood at home, and not everyone has the same experience of society as the next person due to cognition,education,socio economic situation, and not everyone has the same moral code.Social mores will shape the moral tone of a society.

The question is why does there exist in your country a society that believes it is ok to leave a man who has been run over, and to not help him.

Part of our answer would be to look to the government to hear our concern that there needs to be analysis of what the problem is and enact a whole of government approach to social justice issues.

No-one seems to be asking your politicians for answers to some serius questions about what your society will look like as a whole, not just an economy, under their leadership. I believe it is the role of government to discuss and debate moral issues as elected representatives of the people, and to provide forums for debate about challenges and solutions.

I dont find just addressing morals is the answer to communities struggling with a lack of leadership, and poor social determinants. Morals come from a place of feeling good about yourself and having a clear understanding of social expectations and boundaries.Lots of people feel disconnected from their community, cant go out coz they've got no money, feel sad and agry at not being able to find a solution, struggle with health issues. Hard to be moral if you need to steal to survive. Hard to care when no-one is caring about you.

"""" Hard to care when no-one is caring about you. """"
really?????? hmmmmm...... i question that.... so because no one "cares" about "me, that releases me from any moral obligation...

free, as for your government "stuff"...pretty easy cop out.... well "they " didn't tell me i should, therefore i did not. wonderful blanket excuse....

initial report was there was no calls...

hartford is 30 miles away from me... i have that "crap" coming into my town...and YES! it is a segment of society. the low lifes and we all know who and what i'm talking about. and no, i will not feel sorry for them, they have refused their opportunities. open your eyes...they have made their choices.
the angels who have done no harm, have helped themselves in life, are a vital part of our society....the ones who hit him, personally i have no use for nor sympathy . find them pretty useless.

Okay So you think I am a low life??
I am not rich I am not middle class. I WAS POOR AND STILL AM.
I make ends meat I bust my butt everyday doing a million loads of laundry for old veterans for 7.25 an hour.AND I am taking baking classes so I can make MORE.. at one time I was making only 504 a MONTH

It makes me feel sad for people who think LIKE this because not all poor people are LOWLIFES, its very bitter and cold thinking when you have not walked a mile in their OR my shoes.
AT one time I lived in a shelter ...live it a little and maybe JUST maybe you will fully understand

free, as for your government "stuff"...pretty easy cop out.... well "they " didn't tell me i should, therefore i did not. wonderful blanket excuse.......I have no idea what you mean by this statement...what stuff....and what cop out....

"""" Hard to care when no-one is caring about you. """"
really?????? hmmmmm...... i question that.... so because no one "cares" about "me, that releases me from any moral obligation...
...if you want to read that into my statement feel free.....but I never said that. I said "it is hard to care when no-one is caring about you".....no mention at all of releasing people in to anarchy, merely trying to see why some people couldnt care less about others......

oh good lord...
GG...umm...no, but those that did not stop, and the ones that did nothing. and we can add in the ones that are pimping, marketing drugs, exploiting the child...
you fall into any of those catagories?

free...you implication that it is governments "job" to police morals. give more of your power away....no thanks. i prefer to keep it a parenting issue. funny, 50 years ago we did not have these problems, what happened?

oh good lord...
GG...umm...no, but those that did not stop, and the ones that did nothing. and we can add in the ones that are pimping, marketing drugs, exploiting the child...
you fall into any of those categories?

free...you implication that it is governments "job" to police morals. give more of your power away....no thanks. i prefer to keep it a parenting issue. funny, 50 years ago we did not have these problems, what happened?

I just asked a question to see your real views is all.you were extremely vague
so there was no need to be so huffy

I just do not understand why we as a society shove these folks to the side WHEN we have SO many options to get out and help them
My sister was a druggie for YEARS. Clean for 8 months
Some prostitutes feel they HAVE no other options..low self esteem..child molestation and more sent them to a place where they were ACCEPTED yet not accpeted...NOT saying I condone this however after watching a few history channel shows I can see why they did what they did...does it make them low life..NO it makes them LOST and in need of help.

NO if we as a society AND our government HAD stricter and HARSHER laws on those who do these horrid things ( I was molested) THEN maybe some would not turn to drugs and more. ALL we do is slap them on the hand and say OKAY you get 20 years...here watch some TV (WHICH some prisons have CABLE!!)

I think it is time to strip them OF THAT..they are there for a CRIME not luxuries AND some would prefer to STAY in prison as it is EASIER..SO yes I will feel sorry for those who are poor
I have seen homeless folks on the street
TO many say WELL GET A JOB
WELL in order to have a job you need a phone or a home addy ect...SOOOO no phone no addy how do you get a job ( and NO homeless shelters will not allow you to use the phone for job things HOWEVER the ymca and ywca have just recently allowed this)

free...you implication that it is governments "job" to police morals. give more of your power away....no thanks. i prefer to keep it a parenting issue. funny, 50 years ago we did not have these problems, what happened?

If you read what I wrote with an open mind you would see I did not say anything about asking our government to be the moral police. I said it was the responsibility of the government to create an environment where social, moral, ethical and legal issues can be debated and addressed. If legislation is deemed necessary by the majority ie in a democracy, then that is the role of government, to enact the will of the people. Are you saying its otherwise?

And I dont believe things were that different 50 years ago. Domestic violence was rife and tolerated, there was huge incidence of child abuse, unreported, because there was nowhere to go with it. Rape was used as a form of social control for "wayward" women who stepped out of line or got too big for their boots. Homosexuality was outlawed. Only white middle class values were considered acceptable. Bad luck if you didnt agree or fit in. Stop holding up the good old days and start analysing what is wrong with your society today that allows an old man to be run over and left for dead in a main street...the old days werent so good, and the morals were very skewed....different things happening now.

In my opinion, and its only that, government has a role to play in generating debate and discussion on social issues. I have not handed my power of moral choice over to them. Like I said, our system is different, and my experience of government is one that is participatory. You cant transpose our system onto yours and vice versa. I would be interested in what your view of the role of government is in these situations. It sounds a lot like anarchy to have no government control over anything and allow individuals to make their own rules on everything. Pink mentioned the role of government was to create a secure society....how exactly do you propose they do that in the case of the OP topic?

GG...huffy?
i was kinda amazed that you thought you would be lumped into low life...

personally free...i believe in capital punishment. :D

and now, since we no longer have a debate/discussion section...
carry on without me....

ah yes the absolute form of government control...dont help people, just kill them. That and anarchy....bless you!

ah yes the absolute form of government control...dont help people, just kill them. That and anarchy....bless you!

:yes: I agree however we send them to death row and NOTHING HAPPENS..SO if we are not going to put them to death and just USE up the tax payers MONEY why not DO something instead of THAT,, I would LOVE IF they are sent to prison to just have the basics.. ..America has turned our prisons into pleasure cells. I do not think they should have access to the news OR luxuries ..SCHOOLING though in prison I like that idea..getting an education, therapy and so on is FANTASTIC!!
We all talk about rehabilitation on some of the prisoners..however I have yet to see that fully happen

and Christina I was refering to your poor comment not your other one I am glad YOU clarified it...I was not being snotty with you..and yes I found your answer a tad huffy..but that is okay..sometimes everyone gets that way
hugs anyway

Interjecting here from my experience in another country....

Having been to Austria twice now (and having my mom raised there...hearing stories about the country for years and years), I always use it -in my mind- as a model of what i wish we had in the US. Freespirit, in Australia is living under a similar system...so are many of our other friends on Ageless who are from other European countries, the UK, Canada, etc. We can LEARN FROM THEM. If it's working much better in those countries, why can't it work here?

I agree, Jodey, we've gotten ourselves into a black hole of moral disregard in
many areas....I think the blame for that also falls in many camps: with parents, with government, with ourselves as apathetic community members. I also TOTALLY believe that there are other subtle causes....one being the obliteration of the ARTS in schools. If children don't grow up with beauty (definition: art in any form that positively inspires) in their lives (and if not at home, then at school), they learn to be "bored"...to embrace anger and unrest, etc.

Everyone: If you haven't rented "Mad Hot Ballroom", do it. It is a documentary of an after school ballroom dance program started in the inner city schools of New York by some volunteer teachers. 5th and 6th graders learned ballroom, and the ETIQUETTE of dance (honor and respect your partner, be polite, boys offer you hand to invite a girl to dance, etc.). Many scoffed...but the results are documented and extraordinary. The children who took part in this arts program had huge drops in behavior issues at school, their grades went up, and there was less fighting on playgrounds....and these are POOR kids, learning what they couldn't learn (or wouldn't be taught) at home. The program has grown now to several districts with HUGE competitions each year...kids feel good about themselves, and they in turn treat others with respect.

There are stories of similar programs involving music, theater, visual art, etc.

Free is right: what a community/government values (caring, providing for it's people, etc), will become what the people value.

I don't think it's too late for America, but we need radical change and radical leaders to start the ball rolling.

Back to Austria (and as a disclaimer, I know no country is without problems, and I love the US and don't want to move out of it, but....)...
Austria has:
~ FREE Health Care for all it's citizens
~PAID Maternity Leave (6 months)
~Government check each month for each child you have until they turn 18 ( I think it is $500/mo)
~FREE Housing credit to purchase your first home (govt. gives several thousands of dollars so that every citizen who wants one, and is willing to work to pay the balance, can own a home)
~ FREE Higher Education for everyone
~ Job placement and workplace perks
~ Doctors are rewarded (with bonuses) when their patients actually get healthier...for instance, if Gustav is a smoker, and his Dr. gets him to quit and his health benefits, the Dr. gets a bonus!! So, just doling out meds without responsibly trying to help/cure a patient is counter productive.

They have virtually NO homelessness (because their indigent and mentally ill are cared for, fed, given medical attention and housed)...crime is low (because, as my Austrian friend put it, "When everyone is fed, housed, clothed and treated with respect/medical attention when needed, why do you have to steal??") ...they have a HEALTHY economy (even though they pay up the ying yang...I think 20%...in taxes to fund everything)....They VALUE ART AS A COUNTRY - in their homes, in their schools, in the government (example: over 10,000 school children were bussed in from across Austria to Innsbruck where the Tanzsommer Dance Festival was held *where my dancers and others performed*. The country sanctioned a school-off day so that it's school children could travel a couple of hours to SEE SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL and inspirational and entertaining. These were 6 years -18 year old students....no cat calls from the boys in the audience, HUGE applause and appreciation from everyone, respect all the way around...the teachers had control of their classrooms as they were seated, and the kids were mesmorized...we got standing ovations at each matinee). Here, if it's not a football team, it doesn't get funded...and NO WHERE in the US would we see a state the size of Austria shut school down and bus their kids for an ARTS event (music, dance, theater, whatever).
What the state/community values, the kids will value.

Best yet...everywhere we went across the country (about 8 cities and smaller towns) we all saw something we used to see in the US 30 years ago....people disciplining OTHER people's children when it was warranted. Two teenagers zoom past an elderly couple on skate boards...a random middle aged man grabs one and tells him to apologize and slow down.....a random woman suggests to a young girl that she hold the door at a store for a solo-elderly shopper coming in behind. It's the whole "we all take care of each other" concept..."we ALL care, about our community, our collective kids, our families, our success as a nation" , that's what we've lost here in America.

Epo's comment on random acts of kindness is right on. I think it starts there with each of us individually...and then we HAVE to follow up with being vocal about what we want/need from our government. My torch is for universal health care here in the US. It works in so many other places...I don't want a voucher system, or reduced insurance costs...I WANT FREE HEALTH CARE FOR THE NEEDS OF OUR PEOPLE SO THAT NO ONE DIES BECAUSE THEY CAN"T AFFORD TO LIVE.

Whatever your moral issue is, stand for it. Let's use other country's models as something to reach for, and not give up stretching toward it until we get it.

I totally understand Free not getting some of the references we make here about our system....because it is absolutely foreign to her:o It's like the scene in "SICKO" where the young couple from the UK are being interviewed as they leave with their brand new baby, just delivered. The US interviewer asks, "So, Ho much did it cost for you to have your baby...adding up the doctor/hospital/anesthesia costs, etc." The couple looked utterly dumbfounded...paused...looked at each other, and then chuckling asked, "what do you mean?!?!?" They had no point of reference because their baby was TOTALLY FREE delivered in their UK hospital. Heck, Jake just had relatively minor nasal surgery and that cost more than $8,000 (we have to pay $250 deductible, then 20% on some, and 50% on other portions of the total:confused::confused:...oh, and the box of kleenex he used in recovery, it cost $18:eek:). Something ain't right.

Anyway, I basically agree with everyone who's posted on this thread so far because I believe our country's "whoas" are multidimensional- just as the opinions here; and there isn't just one bearer of blame. We ALL can change things...it might be slow, but it can be sure.

Can't sleep....ack!
Ok, here are a few thoughts.....
I wonder when our forefathers wrote "freedom of speech" that they thought it would include all of what that means in modern society :confused:
Am assuming that they expected the people speaking would have something intelligent to say and, certainly, mean spirited rude, hurtful, words would not be tolorated w/o some form of retribution....don't you think?
Same thought process, I am hoping, goes with the right to bare arms.....do not think they thought that children, from ALL economic backrounds, would be blowing other people away on a daily basis.
It is naive to think that we parents can completely shield our children from outside influences.
Thank God that when I was growing up, you could make a few stupid mistakes, give in to peer pressure from time to time, and still survive.
Our government is supposed to "represent our country and who we, as a nation, are...........scary!
With each generation that goes by, things have been taken to the limit of humanity and not in a good way:(
FEAR is what has happened to our nation.....fear of staying warm, fear of putting food on the table, told how to look, what AGE we should not go over, cartoon characters treating each other with disrespect, told who we as a nation should love and who we should hate....for instance religious differences........
Teachers are scared and, as a result, ineffective.
Parents are working, fighting, trying to deal with life...................
So.........NOW what???????????????????

karen...my husband is from the netherlands, kinda like your austria, but it is a hell of a lot more then your stated 20%.
you pay my share of "utopia" ;) cause i believe in a hand up, not a hand out
*best explain that before i get a new one.... i believe people should earn what they want...that vacation(netherlands gives everyone money for a yearly vacation), pay for your own support for child(could make a whole income here eh?), i refuse to be told what kind of housing i will live in(if you rent, the netherlands decides that for you), etc....
oh!!!! and find out how much that system is in the red.... think ours is bad? ;)


*back to my previously stated corner*

All countries economies are in the red, thats the state of the global economy. As to being told what to do, do you really think your government is not controlling you, your freedoms, etc.....you think because you can buy your own home you are free....well here we are free to get sick, get educated to tertiary level, get paid leave, sick, maternity, 4 - 6 weeks annual....we also have freedom of speech and a democratically elected government and we do not feel ripped off....

we are happy paying through taxes for those who cant help themselves, because who knows what circumstances might prevail that would see us in the same situation and needing a helping hand. I currently pay 33% tax and am happy to do so. I pay 1.5% levy on my pre tax income which goes towards a universal healthcare scheme. When my son broke his arm the other day everything was covered, ambulance, ED, xrays, plastering, all outpatients care....oh yeah, and no waiting he was in to ED and in a bed post op in 5 hours. Anyway never going to convince you there is another way to even consider.

Karen thank you for your eloquent post. I did put a disclaimer that my idea of government was very different to the US experience but that seems to have gone over some heads. I still think hanging and killing people is no answer to social problems, and certainly would hope that those citizens demanding that form of justice never find themselves wrongly accused or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Jodey I agree it seems a culture of fear, anxiety, anger is pervasive in your country right now, just from reading your media and hearing you guys talk. I have to say we do not feel that fear here, and even though we have different problems, feel comfortable in placing them on the federal agenda for discussion and debate, and some funding and resolution. I still wonder what some people would do to address the social problems that caused the old man to lie dying in the middle of the road. Do you not think it requires something more than the death penalty, which would only create more fear and loathing? What about long term solutions, what about demnading your politicans and social planners come up with some answers that the genral population can implement to achieve a more civic society?

It's the whole "we all take care of each other" concept....yes but how to achieve that in a society that is ruled by capitalism and a "me first" mentality? It is ridiculous to assert that it is the sole responsibility of parents, and that government has no role to play.

I agree with much of what you say Mama (Chris) but things happen in life that are sometimes way beyond our control.
At this point I would gladly give half of what I make if it would assure my child a good education, safer streets, health care, and most importantly....piece of mind.
Even with a masters degree, at this time in America, you might not make ends meet.
I had a child but have had to raise her alone....can't get blood out of a stone.
I have done so, as best I could, until I got hurt.
What about Shewolf.....where would she be living in this country?
Get cancer here with no insurance and you loose EVERYTHING you worked so hard for and once that is gone....no more treatments of chemo, etc.....PERIOD!
I am now getting social security, as you know, and, even after 32 years of professional work, HARD WORK, I cannot live on ss...
I gave most of my life to my career, paid my taxes, but am still hard pressed to put food on my table and, even though I have insurance, I can barely afford the gas to get to a doctors appt!
How do I explain this to my child w/o her becoming bitter? I do try and, b/c she is very smart, she does accept things as best she can!
This is no longer the era of WWII, the fifties, and an endless stream of possibilities.....
One of the toughest things to do in this world is to rise above your economic upbringing....yes, many have done it but, less and less so as the years go by.
When you grow up w/o hope......life is not so pretty and weaker spirits are broken. Hell, tough spirits are hard pressed to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
If I had to break a law or let my family starve.....I'd break the damn law!
What should we do with the under educated, injured, mentally ill, physically sick people in this country?
At this point the "look out for youself" mentality is just a lack of understanding what being a COMMUNITY is all about and, like our fore-fathers.....help take care of our village.
Even then, was leaving the church of England to avoid their laws effective?
Seems to me that if you went against the new religion adopted here in America....you were, at the very least, wearing a big Scarlet Letter on your forehead:rolleyes:
We are not free here.....it is an illusion that is starting to show it's true colors!

a hand up!
but i do not believe in giving to those that have given NOTHING, nor do i give a rats derriere about the street corner punk...

i am more then willing to help you, help the minumum wage worker(but that worker can't afford walmart dental $7 a month for a max of 1500 per year ...may not sound like much, but it is a start, BUT can afford her daily dunkin donuts, her cigarettes, her cell phone, so choices made! her own grown up decision!), those who are deemed incapible of work(think the field i do) but i am not willing to help those that are not willing to help themselves...
people need to assume responsibility....

Absolutely....couldn't agree more!
But, what about the small children who are growing up in ignorance?
Am thinking the babies born into poverty in, oh say, the Blue Ridge Mountains....how are they supposed to learn when their parents are so poor and, many times, ignorant?
More are being born into violence and ignorance every second and it IS our problem if you do not want more punks on the streets!
It has become our nations problem.
Or again.....look at how well our tax dollars were spent on the victims of Katrina.....it was, and still is, a neverending nightmare for many and when they are displaced, cold, hungry, and frightened......that also becomes our problem b/c stressed out, cold, hungry, sick, homeless, and scared people make bad choices that do effect us all!

that blue ridge hill person does have access to education/help but refuses... i can't change that.

i support health care/assistance for children/working poor/elderly/those that can not do for themselves(again think my field).
katrina showed that the government can not provide all your needs/ protect you in all circumstances.
assume personal responsibility....

i support health care/assistance for children/working poor/elderly/those that can not do for themselves...and who decides who gets that support, what the parameters of eligibility are....your government.....and where do you get a say in how that eligibility is decided?

Again what are your suggestions for improving the situation overall....just stating people need to assume responsibility and assuming they all have the capacity to do so, or to understand the concept, is no answer at all....look at what happened to the old guy on the street when marginalised people are left to make moral decisions....they decide in favour of self preservation...which means you have a selfish society full of people who for whatever reason couldnt make it under your rules

if you dont want government to come up with solutions, then you will have to....how will you get your solutions on the public agenda etc etc etc...you need government to be the arbitrator according to their electoral platform...if you want conservative economics to be the shape of your society where there is no social welfare safety net then go for it.....if you want a platform with a social consious then who will give you that in the next election....is anyone asking the candidates what they see as the social shape of the US for the next four years and beyond and how they might achieve that.....

IAt this point the "look out for youself" mentality is just a lack of understanding what being a COMMUNITY is all about and, like our fore-fathers.....help take care of our village.
In a community people have to work according to their capabilities. In the past, parents had to instill in their children some values, so the children took care of them when they themselves were old. Now the government has to provide for all, and when it fails, nobody provides for the old and infirm. The government has taken from our individual hands all responsibility for our neighboors. That is why noboby helped the old man, people were waiting for the "authority" to come help. That is the result.
Give me give me give me.

I believe in affordable medicine. I believe in the social security, I believe in free education and low cost housing, but I do not believe in paying people who do not work. :no:

My bf has a medical tourism business. Some of his clients are people from first world countries, Canada, Europe, who cannot and will not wait the months and months they have to wait to get surgery from their socialized health systems.

social welfare safety/ government rules/regulations has never instilled individual moral distinction of right/wrong.


we, the people, have an obligation to help each other. we do not need a government setting our parameters...
a few examples...the people of my state and walmart...53 million dollars collected for the childrens miracle network. (just one of the 50 states)
walmart, and associates, the first to get needed supplies to victims of katrina....

if you choose to rely on your government , your choice...i prefer to help myself and extend/receive a hand from my family/neighbor. personally i think it makes a much better community/society.

sheila...an excellent post.... basic morals/values

free...my only answer to you will be a question...does not questionable behavior/activity happen in your country?

we are going to have to agree to disagree on this :D

I have a question.........
The state of our country, as a whole, seems to have lost it's way....do you really have enough faith in your neighbor to actually do something:confused:
It's gone to far and it will take more than orginization skills to pull enough Americans together to do much good to sway the generations of hardened, uneducated, violent culture we've become.
Not to mention how it is really insurance companies and other such industry that has driven our country so far into the ground that people are feeling one of two ways.....arrogant or hopeless.
It's not a great start....

yes jodey i do....
our good people far out weigh the low lifes

if you choose to rely on your government , your choice...i prefer to help myself and extend/receive a hand from my family/neighbor. personally i think it makes a much better community/society....then your problem is solved. Tell that to the old man in the street. And maybe start doing your grocery shopping in that neighbourhood of low lifes....sounds like they need your help, no? I agree, we have to agree to disagree on this, as you seem unable to consider alternatives.

We dont rely on government, thats your misunderstanding. We work with government as an instrument of the people. I dont think you'll ever get that basic distinction. We are not afraid of government involvement because we see the benefit of a working parliament. And of course we have questionable behaviour/activity and of course we have social problems. Its how we deal with it that makes the difference.

We just arent a punitive society thats all. Why punish those who for whatever reason cant help themselves. What if I got sick, lost my job, and my house, had no income.....what would happen to me in your country....I shudder to think. The way you think about each other gives me the heebies.Too much power over, and thank god its not me. I prefer a caring society and if I have to pay taxes and talk to my politicians about how to make it happen, thats ok by me. You seem to think that makes us hopeless cases who dont want to help ourselves, Far from it. Entrepeneurial skills are much encouraged and there is much opportunity here to be something. We are not a nation of helpless hopeless welfare bludgers waiting passively for government to tell us what to do, thats just arrogant of you to assume that.

you still havent come up with any solutions, besides assassinating "the low lifes"....you say you dont want the government to intervene or get involved, and obviously those said "lowlifes" cant change, so what do you propose should happen...or does "someone else" have to have a solution

karen...my husband is from the netherlands, kinda like your austria, but it is a hell of a lot more then your stated 20%.
you pay my share of "utopia" ;) cause i believe in a hand up, not a hand out

Just a quick point, but I think people in the US hear some real scare stories about taxes in European countries. I don't think it does certain political parties much good to use anything but them.

Anyway, the amount of tax that is being taken out of my paycheck, right now, is more than was being taken out when I was earning a very similar amount in the UK. And I didn't have to pay anything towards healthcare, except for prescriptions, which isn't any different here either. Oh, and my health insurance still means paying to see the Dr anyway! :rolleyes:

I prefer a caring society and if I have to pay taxes and talk to my politicians about how to make it happen, thats ok by me.

Me too, Free....even if it's 50% taxation....if I didn't have to worry about being health care "eligible", or where my next meal was coming from if I lost my job, and my sons could go to college for free, and their wives could take 6 months paid maternity leave when my grandbabies are born, and , and, and, and.......:)

And Jodey...I'm with ya, girl....don'te even get me started on insurance companies and how they hold all the cards, so to speak.:mad: (Jake's mom is an insurance agent, so I'm not bashing those employed by the companies...it's just the way they have power in the US to virtually be GOD in the decision-making process regarding eligibility, etc.)

We dont rely on government, thats (the) misunderstanding. We work with government as an instrument of the people. I dont think you'll ever get that basic distinction. We are not afraid of government involvement because we see the benefit of a working parliament.

Sadly...I don't think most Americans understand this model unless they leave the US and at least visit another country for a period of time where it's working. I've traveled abroad now in several countries (not just Austria), and in Canada, and I never understood socialized-anything until I got to live amongst it...I used to just close my ears to anything attached to a "Socialistic" way of doing things because that term had such a "nazi" ring to it for many of us in my era.

My mom used to always say we needed a socialistic health care system, etc., and I used to fight her on that because of semantics. The FACT was, that she could actually compare the two systems (because she'd been a citizen in both), and concluded that the US way of doing MANY things is far inferior. I wish she were still alive because she and I would be on the same plane now...finally. It took me EXPERIENCING for several months other cultures and countries; talking with tons of French, Austrians, British, Canadians, Germans, Italians, (and reading all the comments by Free and our other Australian friends here on Ageless), etc. and finally "getting it".

I will vote for the candidate that I feel leans the closest toward a caring government, and use my voice, my pen, or whatever else it takes to get my thoughts and concerns out.

And, guess what??? I'm a registered Republican:yes::bgrin2:

Just a quick point, but I think people in the US hear some real scare stories about taxes in European countries. I don't think it does certain political parties much good to use anything but them.

Anyway, the amount of tax that is being taken out of my paycheck, right now, is more than was being taken out when I was earning a very similar amount in the UK. And I didn't have to pay anything towards healthcare, except for prescriptions, which isn't any different here either. Oh, and my health insurance still means paying to see the Dr anyway! :rolleyes:

I was thinking about this very thing today...a lot of people in this country don't seem to take into account all the various forms of "taxes" we DO actually pay here...sales tax, gas tax, state income tax, federal income tax, health insurance premiums, childcare costs, property taxes - to include garbage service, fire and emergency service....if one were to add up all the "taxes" being taken out of your gross earnings, it is probably no different - maybe even more - than most socialized countries take out to cover those same services for their citizens. It is semantics....but unfortunately in OUR country, after we pay all of the above fees and taxes, we still get shafted with huge medical bills, college tuition fees, crappy roads and emergency services in rural areas, crappy public schools, low literacy rates compared to most socialized nations, probably more things that arren't coming to me right now... :p

So that argument about high taxes for socialized countries just doesn't fly with me....nor should it with anyone else who does the math and divorces themselves from semantics and propaganda....

Karen I think it is time for you guys to stop taking partisan lines and look at issues as bipartisan, that is the democrats and republicans work together to address issues, instead of splitting everything down party lines.

It is a shame that some cant even think of answres but are happy to criticise those who cant help themselves. If everyone started off with equal opportunity and were able to achieve equally then the argument would be fair. But it doesnt seem like that is the case. Nor is it here which is why there are many programs aimed at levelling the playing field.

After I made the last post I watched parliament on TV and they were debating raising the child care revate for all families with kids in childcare. It is means tested and you have to pay some, but for most families in low-middle income it is a gap f about $40 max. Anyway the rebate is only paid if your child goes to an accredited child care centre that meets government standards for staffing, safety etc....which means kids under 5 have access to affordable safe child care so more parents can work, especially part time mums, and that raises our literacy levels, as well as ensuring kids in high risk families have some positive input without needing to be put in foster care. Who subsidises the rebate...we all do through taxes...do I have kids in care...no....do I mind...no...because it means less social problems impacting on society and more parents able to contribute through the taxation system because they can work (there is ample research to back up the positive benefit of accredited child care on marginalise kids) ....

so that is government involvement in policy and practice...just one area...not cntrolling, not demeaning, not creating a population of handout recipients with no motivation

social welfare safety/ government rules/regulations has never instilled individual moral distinction of right/wrong.....yes it has

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