I want him to step up

Need some advice on how to approach the situation. I'll try to be brief ... haha I only said TRY.

Brief recap: been couple online since 4/20/07. Met first time (and only time) in person 8/18/07. He's been in college in LA where he lives. Plans were to see each other maybe every 2-3 months til we could be together in 2-3 years when college done.

Last fall at school, he was going through very rough spot, primarily from PTSD due to how he was treated summer 07 while home (when his parents learned about me and put him, and me, through hell). School was tanking, but he was pulling himself out of his extreme funk (which I am SO proud of).

Late October 2007. Mom flies into country. Tells him she has cancer, and oh yeah it's all MY fault so the family is going to pay someone $50K to have me killed. (So one dinner, news that the two women he loves most are both facing death... wtf?!?!) Browbeats him into withdrawing from school and going back to Hong Kong for an undetermined amount of time. Was supposed to be back Spring 08 semester... but that wasn't true. Now it's Fall 08 ... MAYBE, still remains to be seen if he will actually come back. I think he's wonderful to want to help take care of his mom - but that is NOT why they wanted him back (she was considering treatment in US, and he STILL would have been told to stay in Hong Kong, so it's NOT that.) You, I, his friends and the rest of the free world know it is to break us up... only he seems to be clueless about that, and by choosing to pretend he knows no better, he is helping it happen.

While he has been in HK ... the past 7 1/2 months of our relationship that isn't even twice that long... he's too scared of upsetting his parents to treat me like his girlfriend.

He hides talking to me. I get a bit of time before he's in bed, and a bit of time before I'm in bed. Webcam? Maybe once-twice a month... only when he can hide it, though usually do voice then too. Phone? Forget it. They might see that he had a call come in from me. No time to have serious discussions - or much of ANY kind. I got one weekend a while back when his parents went out of town - not quite enough to sustain me for a whole year. It's getting rougher and rougher on me by the day, and I don't see much changing.

He "thinks" he is doing enough, but I don't really think he's putting in the effort that our relationship needs, not if he's still too intent on pleasing his parents and therefore hiding me. Even HE says he's not happy about things... but my thinking is if that were true he would change those things which out of the two of us only HE has control over.

So I found this book on ebay that is by an artist he is gaining interest in. Seller in Hong Kong. I thought wow easy to have it shipped to HIM rather than ME overseas. But... that's not a good idea. His parents might open the package and see the packing slip & that it was purchased by me. Then he's calling one of his friends over and over trying to get in touch with him to get together for dinner etc while friend's in Hong Kong. That's great, he needs to see friends... but what does that make ME? I can't call him, he won't call me, forget actually SEEING him, and can't even send him an art book. Yet he will be going to eat dinner at someone's house who he doesn't even KNOW with this friend... ? I'm not being treated like a friend nor even an ACQUAINTANCE, much less a girlfriend or fiance.

I know this has not been easy on him. Mom has him convinced he caused her cancer. Imagine carrying that kind of constant guilt, and having to be there where it is reinforced every single day. I'm not handling the situation at ALL well, which is just harder on him. He's not willing to hurt his parents, although he seems more than willing to hurt me.

I love him, and I want to be gentle with him. But I'm also to the point of... actions speak louder than words and basically I haven't even been part of the picture for way too long. I can have my needs and wants met in about 3-4-5 years... depending on how many years his parents keep him out of college so that it takes him longer and longer to finish. During which time he will stay in Hong Kong and continue hiding me? No.

My thought is "he's just not that into you"... which I honestly don't think is the case. It's time for me to put my foot down I'm afraid, and I'm ready to lose him if he's not willing to step up to the plate.

Was trying to talk to him a bit earlier before he went to sleep (yes, not the best time... but the ONLY time.) He said he would quit school if that's what it takes... but he's not IN school right now... school ISN'T THE PROBLEM and I told him that. I've never asked him to quit school!

Need to figure out what to say, and how to say it where he finally "gets it", but yet I don't want to hurt him either. Kinda want him to put up or shut up - but say it gently. Any advice on how to talk to him about this - other than well first of all actually forcing him to MAKE time for me?

How about this...."While I understand what you are going through and how upsetting life has become.....
I care so much for you and want everything to be alright but......I am feeling bad more days than I am smiling and l need not to.
Life is short and so precious....I need to fill up mine with a deep feeling of peace and lot's of smiles!"

let me get this straight. his mom says they're paying someone 50 grand to off you, and you want him to 'step up'? <girl, what planet are you ON?>

dump him. and soon. for ****'s sake, his mom wants you dead! if my boyfriend told me that, i'd be making tracks before you could say 'mama's boy'. what the hell are you doing in this crap situation?

he's not gonna change. one of the hazards of loving a man/woman from another country/culture. from what you've posted, he sounds like a real piece of work/wimp.

i'll say it again in closing. DUMP HIM. things aren't going to get better, and you're wasting time, when there's a better and stronger man out there waiting for you.

Sounds like you are in a lose/lose situation! I would be concerned (to put it mildly) about the "death threat". Any family that could come up with something like that MUST be pretty messed up! His mother sounds like a sick control freak...and I hate to say it but there is NO WAY that he has not been affected negatively by that woman. Are you sure you WANT to be with someone with that background? And who refuses to see what's going on and break away from it? And who will STILL be affected by it into the future and will most definitely need therapy to get healthy! I think you deserve better. Just my .02.

This situation sounds pretty sketchy to me. I have a friend who's from Indonesia, and his parents (who are Chinese) are really strict, to the point of not allowing him to marry one girl because she was too "Western." So I understand that part of it, but this just seems off. His parents said they wanted to pay a hit man to have you killed? Either these people are completely nuts or there's something really strange going on here. And I don't really buy anyone with any reasonable level of intelligence actually believing that they caused someone else's cancer (how exactly is this supposed to have happened anyways?). And the phone thing is completely bogus. My cellphone is about four years old and I can erase incoming and outgoing calls. If they look at the bill, find a way to make the number private or call from another number. If those options don't work for him, then there's something fishy going on. I'm guessing that just about every phone on the market can do that. I don't know about the PTSD stuff, or what his parents put him through - maybe you can get PTSD from your parents yelling at you over one summer when you're an adult, but it just seems weird to me.

I don't know, maybe there's a good explanation for all of that stuff, but even then you've got someone who's completely beholden to a family that hates you. Either his family has to come around and not only accept you but also completely change the outlook they have on their desire to control their child, or he's got to grow up tremendously. This is not a matter of "stepping up," it's something that would require quite a lot of courage and a nearly 180 degree shift in his value system (at least the part dealing with family and social relationships) to go from where he is now to where you want him to be. And one other thing, my friend from Indonesia actually recognizes his parents' controlling nature and takes responsibility for his choice in valuing that traditional family structure. Your YM does not seem to be taking that responsibility for his own actions, and that's a big problem in itself. It sounds like you want to feel sorry for him in this situation, but he does have a choice. And even if he chooses his parents over you, he still has the ability to be honest about what he's doing instead of relying on your pity in order to not make any difficult decisions.

sounds like he needs to give up on his family.....if my family said they wanted someone i loved DEAD, if they wanted to off the girl i was with...i'd have to seriously consider offing any contact with them. Thats ridiculous

it might get to a point where u need to tell him me or your family if his family is making DEATH THREATS towards you. What did you do to make them so mad?

Are you serious about his family wanting to pay someone to have you killed? I would not date someone whith a family that thinks that murder is the solution to romantic problems. I wonder what his principles are if he did not leave his family right there and then!:confused::mad:

Now comes the part where I hate to give advice, because I am in a situation where many people would tell me "dump him". And I understand that breaking up would be the reasonable thing to do, but when you love, there is hope that things will change, that things will get better and that one day you will be together happy.

I do not know how much you are willing to wait, or if you are at a point where you can turn the page and move on. Maybe at this point where you have not lived together it would be best to leave him.

Thank you all for your input so far. Just a bit more clarification:

Elizabeth - he and his culture is American. Most of his life has been spent away from parents at boarding schools then college, so the influence isn't nearly as deep as what one would expect. Therein lies the majority of the problem... they are trying to make HIM change, not ME.

Inahnia - yes he is already in counseling. I believe parents wanted to "fix" him since all of the problems were his fault. But it is helping him.

Confuzed - how did I make them mad? I fell in love with their son. And refused to take the $5000 they offered me to leave him.

Pink - I feel sorry for him yes... but only to the extent that I understand what it's like to watch your mother have a terminal illness. And I support him and what he is trying to do while he is there, which is repair the relationship to the extent that he can (in other words... he's more of a man/adult than they are).

Sheila - well yes they were serious. But I also have family that's high up enough in agencies I won't mention to give me some SERIOUS protection. Primary reason he didn't walk away at that moment was that he was ALSO told his mom was possibly dying, and so to walk away at that point might have been to say goodbye forever right at that moment with no hope of reconciliation.

Not making excuses for him ... I'm pretty tired of it, and I'm well beyond the point of worrying about losing him if I expect my needs to be met. I hate the thought of making him choose between them and me, because that's what THEY told him to do, and I just don't think that's a choice that realistically he HAS to make... I think he would still have both.

But I also love him greatly (remember this post says NOTHING about all of the wonderful things he DOES do, just the one big problem we have). Which makes me want to push him hard to act and not just talk... yet do it gently at the same time - and that balance is what I am struggling with.

Keep comments coming... every one of them helps.

LOL just had another thought.

It's like I'm "the other woman". And that doesn't sit well with me. At all. I am NOT saying he is messing around because I know he is not. But in the same manner that someone would try to hide an affair from their spouse, that's how I feel in a way -- putting the spouse first, hiding the other person from them, all of those kinds of things. Not making commitments to "the other woman" ... or maybe verbalizing something but not following through.

I don't mind people playing devil's advocate here, it's what will keep my processing of these thoughts grounded. I process externally, which is something perhaps that gets in the way because we haven't been able to speak enough for me to process my thoughts/concerns about our relationship with him.

i wouldn't care if this guy was from uranus, there is no way i could be with a man whose mom wants me dead. this isn't something you can brush off or laugh about in the future at a family picnic ('hey mom! remember when you hired a hit man to kill lily?'). what chance is there you will ever forget this? hmm? and it doesn't matter if he's american or not. his family is his culture, and a horribly dysfunctional one at that. again, you are wasting your time <with this schmuck.>

Up their offer to $10K and RUN!

Up their offer to $10K and RUN!

Better yet, up their offer to the $50K they were gonna pay to have you killed, and RUN, smiling all the way to the bank!!!!!

Better yet, up their offer to the $50K they were gonna pay to have you killed, and RUN, smiling all the way to the bank!!!!!

LOLOL

I wouldn't take their money if they were the last people on earth. They think I'm only wanting him to get their money, or that I'm going to kidnap him to get a ransom. Something lol.

I hate to say this, but he already made a choice between you and his family. So trying to have him make a choice now is basicly pointless. I'm sure he cares for you, but his family will always be first and you will only get the left overs here and there.

And I agree with the others about the hit. I would be for getting myself clear of this family for safety purposes as well.

Good luck. I hope you find peace and happiness.

Run, run, run... The other way that is!

You are putting your life on hold for him and where is that taking you?

I could give you so many different reasonings and you would still find a logical way to defend/protect him.

Don't seek him out, let him make all the moves! If you do, I doubt it that he will step up as you so wish.

Life is too short to be in limbo for so long.

Wishing you the best in your decisions. May you find peace and love within you!

I hate to say this, but he already made a choice between you and his family.

Believe me, I know. Sad because I never wanted him to have to.

Life is too short to be in limbo for so long.

I agree completely.

I agree completely.

Then what are you waiting for to let go? A miracle?

I know it is hard to do, but the longer you wait the longer you are postponing enjoying the rest of your life!

I just couldn't resist to tell the story about my grandparents when reading this. My grandfather was born around Hong Kong in the year 1900. At 16, he arrived in Central America and decided to travel a little throughout the region. He met my grandmother, who was probably a couple of years older than him, and fell madly in love.

Now, the family problem. At the time, arranged marriages were widely practiced in China, and we believe that there was already an arrangement made for my grandfather because he actually returned to China, and only came back a year later (again by boat). This time, it was for good, he married my grandmother, who unfortunately died while giving birth to one of her children a few years later. My grandfather turned to alcohol and died some 10 years later extremely poor and feeling miserable.

After my grandfather died, letters were still arriving from China, in Chinese of course, that nobody could read. At some point the letters stopped coming, and my father, the oldest child, eventually found someone who could translate some of the letters, and this was when the family learned about my grandfather's 'other' marriage.

Can I dare to compare? Is love dependant on culture? We believe my grandfather left a fairly confortable life in his home country and defied his family to be with the love of his life. I don't understand why we would want someone to step up for us, this is wishful thinking, and at the end people do what they really want to do.

Obviously, in this case, the YM wants to be with his mom in Hong Kong. So spare his feelings please and do what you have to do.

Look, if he wanted to be with you, he'd cut his family loose. It would be a very hard decision but he'd do it because he has a right to make decisions about his own life, even in the face of his mother's illness. I'm not saying it wouldn't be painful, but he'd have to cut his ties and be with you, make a life with you. That is his right. Should his family come to respect his right to live his life on his own terms, then perhaps time can mend what would amount to some very deep wounds between him and his family members.

Again, if his feelings for you run deep and are unyielding, then his priority as an adult with the right to make decisions about his own life is to cut his family ties and be with you. But based on what you've described, he does not sound willing to make the break and your life is at risk.

I'd back off and let a man who knows what he wants walk into my life. You deserve better than this YM is either willing or able to give.

Believe me, I know. Sad because I never wanted him to have to.

I'm sorry. I know no matter what is said, it's still very painful and hard. In your heart, you don't want to part from him. Only you can make the decision.

I hope things are better for you today. I find it helpful for me to see things written down; one of the things it lets me do is see how the little pieces fit into the whole. I also manage stress by poking fun at things; please don't think that means I'm taking your situation/feelings lightly. When I'm striving to see something clearly, I can also seem more abrupt that I intend.

Need some advice on how to approach the situation. Plans were to see each other maybe every 2-3 months til we could be together in 2-3 years when college done.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who makes such long range plans--I thought I was asking too much for someone to wait 8 mos to be with me.:tongue2:

Last fall at school, he was going through very rough spot, primarily from PTSD due to how he was treated summer 07 while home (when his parents learned about me and put him, and me, through hell). School was tanking, but he was pulling himself out of his extreme funk (which I am SO proud of).

If I have it right, he's from HK of Chinese descent. He's Americanized, but his parents aren't. If they went Medieval on his backside, yeah, I could see him getting a little PTSD-ish afterward.

I've been around a lot of people from Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, HK, China, etc. I am by no means an expert on it, but I've noticed that the level of independence we'd expect from a North American or European person of college age is not usually displayed by people from southeast Asian cultures until their late 20's or mid 30's.

If you chose to pursue this relationship, you're going to be up against this issue for several years to come.

Late October 2007. Mom flies into country. Tells him she has cancer, and oh yeah it's all MY fault so the family is going to pay someone $50K to have me killed. (So one dinner, news that the two women he loves most are both facing death... wtf?!?!) Browbeats him into withdrawing from school and going back to Hong Kong for an undetermined amount of time. Was supposed to be back Spring 08 semester... but that wasn't true. Now it's Fall 08 ... MAYBE, still remains to be seen if he will actually come back.

Wow, I've seen a lot of good manipulatin', and that's some of the best.

You're powerful enough to give someone cancer, but you're not invulnerable--you can be taken out by a $50K hit man. I'd be tempted to approach it from the angle that you'll cure her cancer once her son is back in the US and enrolled in the university of his choice, and they'd better call off the hit man or you'll get her from the grave...where you'll be more powerful than you are now.

Seriously, tho', wow. To be cooped up with that. He'll be lucky if he doesn't need deprogramming later in life.

If he's not in school, what's he doing? Is he working? Do his parents let him to leave the house?

I think he's wonderful to want to help take care of his mom - but that is NOT why they wanted him back (she was considering treatment in US, and he STILL would have been told to stay in Hong Kong, so it's NOT that.) You, I, his friends and the rest of the free world know it is to break us up...

Do they earnestly believe the mother has cancer? That is to say, is she receiving some kind of treatment (traditional, modern, anything)? Maybe they really do believe she has cancer and they really did ask him to come home to be with them. The operative word here is "believe." If they believe she has cancer--whether she has it or not--they've got to be doing something about it. Are they? Or, is there always a reason they're putting off going to the doctor, delaying treatment, etc.?

If the cancer was just a ruse to get him back to HK, then for the sake of discussion let's look at it like it was a very poorly conducted intervention. You've got parents who've observed behavior that they think warrants bringing their son home from college, and they've recognized that the situation is so dire, in order for him to come home, they need a premise. (Granted, most people wouldn't use "I have cancer, it's her fault, and we're going to kill her" as their premise, but for the sake of convenience let's just say t is.)

Parents who have just found what they believe to be good cause to pull their child from college and bring him home would probably then place him on restriction. It would be normal for them to say "We're going to (the US for your mother's cancer treatment), but the consequence of your choice to (conduct an online romance with a woman who's not Chinese and who is older than you are) is that you cannot go with us. You have to stay home."

It would also be normal for them to say, "You may see Party A (the friend), but you may not see Party B (you)."

only he seems to be clueless about that, and by choosing to pretend he knows no better, he is helping it happen.

These are his parents--he may have been spent a lot of time in boarding schools, but this is the style of parenting that is normal to him. Maybe he really doesn't know better.

While he has been in HK ... the past 7 1/2 months of our relationship that isn't even twice that long... he's too scared of upsetting his parents to treat me like his girlfriend.

I would be, too. If I were in his shoes, I would be absolutely terrified. They've threatened to kill you, and--the way you describe it--they've practically kidnapped him, are holding him hostage, and monitoring his every move.

I grew up in a household where my every move was monitored and analyzed and critiqued, to the extent that people listened to my phone conversations on extensions, looked at my dirty underwear for stains and went through the trash to make sure I had my period. I was permitted to go from Point A to Point B via Route X. It never occurred to me to take any other route than the one I was allowed. To this day, I don't know where half of the local landmarks are in my own home town--they were not on the way I was allowed to take, I had no business being there, and being caught there was not worth the beating, etc. I'd receive when I got home. Unless you've lived like this yourself, it's something that you cannot understand.

He hides talking to me.

In his situation, I would, too.

I get a bit of time before he's in bed, and a bit of time before I'm in bed. Webcam? Maybe once-twice a month... only when he can hide it, though usually do voice then too. Phone? Forget it. They might see that he had a call come in from me. No time to have serious discussions - or much of ANY kind. I got one weekend a while back when his parents went out of town - not quite enough to sustain me for a whole year. It's getting rougher and rougher on me by the day, and I don't see much changing.

I understand that you're frustrated. With so little contact, I wouldn't feel like I was very important to him, either. If he was in a situation where he was in charge of his own comings and goings, and had nothing to fear if he were caught talking to you, I would say "he's just not that into you." But, that's apparently not the case.

If he is truly in the situation you describe, he risks a lot to maintain what little contact he can with you.

He "thinks" he is doing enough, but I don't really think he's putting in the effort that our relationship needs, not if he's still too intent on pleasing his parents and therefore hiding me. Even HE says he's not happy about things... but my thinking is if that were true he would change those things which out of the two of us only HE has control over.

Make a list of the things he perceives that he has control over. Compare it to the list of things he is doing.

So I found this book on ebay that is by an artist he is gaining interest in. Seller in Hong Kong. I thought wow easy to have it shipped to HIM rather than ME overseas. But... that's not a good idea. His parents might open the package and see the packing slip & that it was purchased by me.

Is you fulfilling your need to give him a gift worth the consequences he will experience?

Then he's calling one of his friends over and over trying to get in touch with him to get together for dinner etc while friend's in Hong Kong. That's great, he needs to see friends... but what does that make ME?

His friend is a person his parents approve of. You are not. Those are his parents' boundaries, not his, and it seems that he is not in a place in his life where he can distinguish the difference.

I can't call him, he won't call me, forget actually SEEING him, and can't even send him an art book. Yet he will be going to eat dinner at someone's house who he doesn't even KNOW with this friend... ? I'm not being treated like a friend nor even an ACQUAINTANCE, much less a girlfriend or fiance.

I understand why you feel the way you're feeling. Again, let me ask where these limits on your relationship come from. Are they there because he put them there, or because his parents put them there?

I know this has not been easy on him...Any advice on how to talk to him about this - other than well first of all actually forcing him to MAKE time for me?

You know what I'd be tempted to do? Pretend like you've given up, then see what he & his parents do.

In the meantime, you'll give yourself room to think about whether or not you want to be in a relationship with someone who seems to be about as emotionally and financially autonomous as an American 12 year old.

I also manage stress by poking fun at things; please don't think that means I'm taking your situation/feelings lightly.
fire away lol

If I have it right, he's from HK of Chinese descent.
Not quite. He's Californian of Chinese descent. And yes, both him and I are considering cultural issues of his parents. However, talking to others - his friends, cousins, aunts/uncles... this is NOT a cultural issue but a parenting issue.

Seriously, tho', wow. To be cooped up with that. He'll be lucky if he doesn't need deprogramming later in life. If he's not in school, what's he doing? Is he working? Do his parents let him to leave the house?
He needs deprogramming now. He is working part time plus volunteering, which isn't good enough for them (volunteering it seems isn't productive and it's beneath them).

Yes, she really has cancer. And it breaks my heart that she is having to go through that. It wasn't a ruse to get him back, it was just a convenient tool to use to do so. She is getting treatment; he is not allowed to discuss this with me because she says I am gloating about it, so all I can do is pray for her health.

It would be normal for them to say "We're going to (the US for your mother's cancer treatment), but the consequence of your choice to (conduct an online romance with a woman who's not Chinese and who is older than you are) is that you cannot go with us. You have to stay home."
I agree that presenting it in this straightforward manner would be understandable. However, that is NOT what is being done. The conversation was more that, oh you HAVE to be in Hong Kong to help your mom because she needs it and if you're here she doesn't have to worry about you. Then when she was looking at treatment in California, she had her friend talk to him about how he needed to stay in Hong Kong because if he was underfoot in California she would have to worry about him. Do you see the difference - they are not being up front and straightforward with him but using manipulation and guilt. Guess that's their perogative, but they'd get much further with him the other way. And this isn't the first time they've handled situations this way; it's the rule rather than the exception.

These are his parents--he may have been spent a lot of time in boarding schools, but this is the style of parenting that is normal to him. Maybe he really doesn't know better.
Yes I know. I work with child abuse cases for a living... those children don't know any better either.

Make a list of the things he perceives that he has control over. Compare it to the list of things he is doing.

Is you fulfilling your need to give him a gift worth the consequences he will experience?
We have done that, and he is NOT doing them. I'm not sending a gift - it's just another example of how he treats his friends differently because they DO. I can think of 10 ways it could be done, without jeopardizing anything at all, off the top of my head - this is a choice he is making.

Again, let me ask where these limits on your relationship come from. Are they there because he put them there, or because his parents put them there?

You know what I'd be tempted to do? Pretend like you've given up, then see what he & his parents do.
These limits were put on the relationship by him. His parents have never said you can only talk to her on IM right before bed, or you can't webcam. He is choosing to do, or not do, these things to not "upset" them.

I almost HAVE given up. But I don't play games and won't just pretend I have to see what happens. Just not my style.

How do I feel this morning? Hmmm. Still trying to figure out how to have the conversation with him. We didn't get to talk last night (which was his morning), one of his friends is finally in town and he went to spend the day with him. I'm glad he gets to do something fun with a friend; yet I'm greatly disappointed that he didn't make the time to chat with me even 5 minutes like he had said he would do. Perhaps we will get to chat later today as he's getting ready to go to sleep.

Again... comments are helping me process everything, so thanks.

IMO...if he stays in China, you are just going to be hurt over and over again.
At this point it really isn't about his choices but your choice of what you want out of your life and what your willing to deal with.
Also, and no offense but, the Chinese government is about to start a war with us.....I cannot imagine that their news is shedding a favorable light on american citizens.
I am not at all prejudice but, if that government finds fault with Buddist Monks....I do not see much hope for the rest of us:confused:
So much hate in this world....I cannot imagine a healthy love growing where there are so many obsticles.
Good luck.
Blessings, TD

IMO...if he stays in China, you are just going to be hurt over and over again.
At this point it really isn't about his choices but your choice of what you want out of your life and what your willing to deal with.
Also, and no offense but, the Chinese government is about to start a war with us.....I cannot imagine that their news is shedding a favorable light on american citizens.


Yeah, I've been worried about the government over there too and have been keeping a close eye on the news - closer than he has even. He is in Hong Kong, which is different; and remember that HE is an American Citizen too.

I had agreed to try to hang on until August for him to come home (school resumes then), but had also told him that it is and will be very rough on me and that he'd need to meet me halfway during the time apart if we wanted any hope. What I didn't say is that he could ignore me, hide me, etc etc during this time, because that just makes it harder. It's hard on him too and isn't what he wants (so he professes), and things have been going downhill so to me it's just time to quit talking and start doing.

Not ready to walk away yet, but also not willing to accept this kind of treatment, and need to find the balance and how to talk to him about it.

His actions speak louder than his words... He may be talking the talk, but he is not walking the walk, so what are you going to do about it?

i'm really not seeing the payoff in all of this. what makes this guy so special? a huge schwansteucker? flat abs? mad cunnilingus skills? what?

<the word 'sucker' in large red capital letters is starting to appear on your forehead, sweetski.> i can only that we someday don't read your obituary.

Hmm, I have chinese friends who were born and raised here in California but no matter how much they might be Americanized at the very heart they are still traditional chinese.

I cant think how many times Ive told my friends, just tell your parents "no", youre an adult and they just look at me like Im crazy and say "you dont say that to Chinese parents."

I have a lot of American friends who come from many traditional ethnic backgrounds who do not just "walk away" from their families. That's a very Anglo concept, for most of us, mexican, indian, chinese, filipino etc etc walking away from you family for a partner is not an option, turning your back on your blood kin is not something that is done, you can be with a partner and know that your family disapproves and hates your choice but you dont abandon your family and that has nothing to do with being immature or being a momma's boy or not having backbone or having a right to a life of his own, its just about a different set of values, the belief that family comes first.

I also know that the traditional Chinese parents that I know want their children to marry Chinese. So not knowing anything about you Lily are you the same culture? I keep thinking about my friend N's parents who had a 10 year age gap, her dad is younger and that didnt seem to be a problem, it just made her mom 10 times bossier lol. Her parents didnt care when N dated older men either, they only had a fit when she ended up getting serious with a Filipino man instead of a Chinese man. She endured the disapproval and married that man and her mother still doesnt like N's choice 6 years later but he's family now whether she likes it or not and let's her know every time they see her that she doesnt like her choice.

In all honesty, I feel that he has given you your answer. He might love you but he has chosen his family and has chosen to avoid the drama that choosing you would cause by hiding your relationship. He appears to be distancing himself bit by bit from your relationship and maybe distance and being with his family has allowed him to change his view and he just hasnt come right out and said it yet. For me this said it all.

I'm not being treated like a friend nor even an ACQUAINTANCE, much less a girlfriend or fiance.

You've gotten a lot of good advice here.

I have been in a situation similar to yours. Guy was of Asian descent, mom hated me when we got serious. She got sick. She manipulated the hell out of him. She locked him in a room. She screamed at me. She screamed at him. We finally broke up. I was devastated. In time I got over it.

Out of all of that, I have one question for you. Do you really want these people as your in-laws? That means day in, day out, hateful mama all up in your business, wrecking your life. He can't/won't divorce his family, so he's got to cut the tie with you.

As I start my life with Chris, I thank my lucky stars *every single day* that I don't have to deal with the ex's horrible mother as an in-law. Chris's parents love me so much. They've accepted me fully, accepted the age gap fully, and yesterday said, "Welcome to the family!" (and they meant it).

There is a much better fit for you out there somewhere. You have to trust yourself and take the leap. You can do it!

I have a lot of American friends who come from many traditional ethnic backgrounds who do not just "walk away" from their families.

I would never want that and he knows. There are times that you must limit contact to protect yourself yes... but family is vitally important to me - he knows that and his parents know that.

I wouldn't respect him if he walked away to the point of never having contact again. And he knows that.

But yeah, I'm feeling a bit of "distancing bit by bit".

I'm feeling a bit of "distancing bit by bit".

Why not do it cold turkey? Why continue with the agony? :confused:

Not me... I'm feeling distancing from him.

And yes, I would take his parents as in-laws to have him. But there wouldn't be all of this "interfering in our business", I've had pushy MIL and know how to handle it.

Why am I still here? I love him and believe everyone deserves a second chance. I'm not perfect and I don't want him to be. Just want to know how to have the conversation with him to see if we are salvageable.

Appreciate the comments, keeps me focused.

I've had pushy MIL and know how to handle it.


I don't call people who want me dead "pushy". I call them pathological. I don't know *anyone* who can "handle" that. And why, why in the h*ll would you want to? That deserves serious examination!

The problem as I see it is not his family. The problem is in this statement of yours from your OP:

"He "thinks" he is doing enough."

So in his mind, this isn't an issue. If he doesn't think it's a problem, he is not going to fix it. I've seen this a million times... if the man doesn't see it as a problem, no amount of talking about it by the woman is going to make him see it. Okay, that's not a 100% rule, but in general, if he doesn't think it's a problem, you bringing it up is just going to seem like "nagging" (the category that a lot of what women say gets put into). He doesn't think it's a problem. Therefore he is not going to fix it.

Some men can be completely dumped by their women and sit there a month later thinking, "Oh, she's going to be sorry when she comes crawling back", fully convinced that she's coming back --it's called denial, and if he's in denial that there is a problem, he will NOT fix it.

Sorry for the bluntness. Bottom line is, accept it as-is, or get out of the situation. I seriously doubt anything is going to change.

Remember rule number one: you can't change a man.

Okay here is my story
As most of you know Kais dad and mom have caused tons of hell for us...YET we are strong as a couple...THIS was NOT always the case.
Kai was SCARED of his father who most of you know is abusive not only physically BUT mentally. I was the ***** that ruined the whole family, the pedophile the destroyer of all evil.

Well THAT is a crock of CRAP and I knew that but wow the things they have tried to get rid of me...THE PHASE they said I was IS STILL HERE and NOT going away anytime soon.

WE had to FIGHT to be together and i mean FIGHT! I felt like I was in a WAR! for 2 LONG years!
His dad sent Kai over the edge..mental health was involved, the police ALL because of his fathers BS and LIES to him making him believe he was worthless, that he was part of this mafia and he had *people*

I told his father BRING IT ON! I was blamed for kais mental breakdown and I knew that was BS

HIS father told mental health lies and they saw through him...They had to call the police on him for pounding on their desk ASKING for info

NOW kai is STRONG ..stronger then ever and has told his parents it is US not them deal with it and he will be with me....SO now we have the visa started ..getting married...his parents are SLOWLY accepting it..

I can say...I have had some sh*tty inlaws..and many have...I have TRIED to get along MANY times...So even if snotty I smile.


IN THE END ITS ABOUT YOU AND HIM NOT HIS MOTHER OR FATHER! SO he has to make the choice. Does he want to be with you?? Then he has to stand up and stop being scared...YES it is VERY scary to do so..to stand up to your parents...however once you are 18 YOU are an adult..its NOT their life anymore..YOU are NOT responsible for their happiness AT ALL..THEY have that choice to be mad or happy..SO if they choose to be MAD and act like crazy moronic fools who are throwing so called power around...OH WELL!

IF they TRULY loved their son they would let him go to be with who HE chooses and is happy with...He should not stay to make mama or daddy happy...He has to decide or lose you in the end.


PS you do not ALWAYS have to get along with the inlaws....there are millions of us who do not...if your LUCKY that they like you COOL...if not we deal with it and keep on smiling:)


PS pink I agree..Kai was like that at frist to...why because THIS was all he knew..kissing mom and dads tushy...till I had to tell him LOOK you will lose me if this continues..YOUR CHOICE

Remember rule number one: you can't change a man.

I agree. And it's not that I want to change him. When he isn't staying with his parents, we don't have these issues.

I DO believe he needs to understand how I feel, and we need to work together to figure out options so that we can both have needs met temporarily until he returns home to the states. I have some that aren't being met during this time, and he deserves to have me discuss them.

And on a side note... the death threat is old news to us. Neither of us took it too seriously... I did put plans in place to protect me in case (I'm not stupid!), but neither of us believe they would do something so stupid that was guaranteed to make him turn his back on them.

lily, lily, lily....
You have something so much better than all of this out there waiting for you. The fact that there is so much turmoil and no inner peace (or outer peace!) in this whole situation points to the fact that it's not meant to be. Just to recap:

1. You've known each other less than 2 years, primarily online
2. You've only met once in person
3. His family hates you
4. His mom is a HUGE control freak
5. His family offered to pay you off to leave their son alone
6. When that didn't work, they considered paying someone to have you KILLED
7. BF goes back to be with parents in another country, and postpones a date
you two decided would be your reunion time
8. He HIDES you in every way possible
9. He gives others time, but not you, and doesn't call when he's said he would
10. You feel him pulling away from you
11. If he has PTSD, it's because of EXTREME parental/family issues....

I know you love him...I know that there were so many good times and he has many great qualities....but it's time to let him go. If a relationship is not ENHANCING your life, it is detracting...when it detracts, it's time.

Never mind a conversation about how to save this...have the conversation wishing him well, and telling him that you have to move on for your own emotional health.

Without details.... I LOVED K in real life with all my heart for almost 4 years ....his family HATED me (no death threats, but they used ultimatums and bribery with him to manipulate)...he consequently wanted to hide our relationship from them. It felt bad...it was bad. He started pulling away, but before he pulled too far, I told he that I needed to let him go. He was wonderful, loving, affectionate, artistic, FUN, intelligent, he loved me....but there wasn't enough substance at the end of the day to make a relationship work long term between us. And, I could NEVER see being with someone whose family despised me.

It was freakin HARD to let go (I cried for a year)....but then, Jake walked in and it became obvious that K had been WAY below what I needed and truly wanted. Like Zolie, Jake's family LOVES ME (and I'm a year older than his mom:eek:), accepted me from day 1 ...and I'll tell ya, that matters a TON in the scheme of day to day life.

It's time....let him go...

I'm sorry this hurts and you are having to deal with such confusion and sense of abandonment. You deserve better....

How did you find out about the hit? Did he tell you?

Again I will say
I went through it and I can tell you their are MANY on here who know the love between Kai and I...He was like your man at one time...BUT he has to make that choice...Happiness for HIMSELF or making mama and daddy happy forever and not being happy himself

YOU CANT MAKE YOUR PARENTS HAPPY THIS IS UP TO THEM! IF THEY DO NOT LIKE IT OH WELL!

DO you REALIZE how many inlaws HATE their daughter in law and nine times out of ten its the MOM who cant cut the emotional umbilical cord!

Time for mom to let her GROWN son go..and put away the boobie and stop coddling him and threating him...
HE HAS TO grow some you know whats and say I AM LEAVING IF you stop me I will NOT talk to ANY of you EVER again..IF you can't ACCEPT this then I will never talk to you again

TRUST ME Kai did it and his mom said FINE go his dad the same...because once he stood his ground AND did not BACK down ..they said OKAY

If you BOTH are in love why let parents RULE who you????? like i said IN THE END ITS ABOUT YOU AND HIM...NOT THEM!

BUT HE Has to make the choice before he looses YOU

remember WE BEEN THERE...and it was WORTH IT...GLAD i stuck it out! WHY? because I have the most amazing loving man I could ever imagine and LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL NOW

How did you find out about the hit? Did he tell you?

Yes, he told me, right after the conversation happened. Again, this is OLD NEWS to us and not something either of us focus on - we don't believe them and for us it's a non-issue, was just a bit of background.

Also want to point out, we haven't had other problems really, and the current issue is only occurring while he is with his parents. And out of our "whole" relationship... this is one relatively SMALL piece. All of the good isn't posted right here, only the issue I was seeking assistance with.

I don't believe that you throw someone away the first time a problem arises, that's just the way I handle my relationships in almost all walks of my life. So yes, I am willing to give this relationship a second chance before I just walk away, and I would want the same treatment in that regards. Which is why my original post was asking for how to have the conversation with him. I am not to the point of ending things, although yes I am realistic enough to realize that it may be necessary in the future, just like it could with any relationship.

I would never want that and he knows. There are times that you must limit contact to protect yourself yes... but family is vitally important to me - he knows that and his parents know that.

I wouldn't respect him if he walked away to the point of never having contact again. And he knows that.

But yeah, I'm feeling a bit of "distancing bit by bit".

(((BIG HUGS GIRL))

It's a hard road knowing that youre being let go.

Family is vitally important to me too. I could not have been with Clint if his mother had not approved because having respect for the family is important and there is nothing sweeter than being welcomed by your partners family.

So you respect the concept of family, you respect him and his choice to be supportive of his mom during her illness and he respects his family, he does not however respect you, otherwise he would choose you and not hide you from his parents. He would choose you, his parents would loathe you and make it known every time you saw them but if youre willing to deal with that then that is your choice, however he is not choosing that road. He's choosing the less drama one, the less conflict the easier road.

looks like she's gonna stick with him folks, and we ain't changin' her mind. <any more commenting is just so much masturbation. guess he does have a huge johnson after all.>

I could not have been with Clint if his mother had not approved

Ah... herein lies another interesting issue. Treating your future daughter in law like total **** can be almost a rite of passage in Chinese culture.

He said his mother, who is older than his father btw, was treated the SAME WAY by his father's mother. And when mother and father both stood their ground and didn't break up, they accepted her. I've been reading up on the this almost "tradition" of the man's mother not getting their payback against the one who did it to them (their own mother-in-law), but to their son's future wife.

Granted not ALL families do this... some actually have some common sense. She would do this with ANY woman he chose, it's not about me - and him and his family have said this, that's not coming from any assumptions I've made.

TL, sorry if I seem harsh, but I have to say... I went down that very road and have come out on the other side. I don't want to see anyone suffer the way I did or Meri has.

And Kai really is a different story, because he showed backbone and commitment all the way along...

So apologies for harshness, I probably would have ignored my advice too... but I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if someone had made me follow it!

looks like she's gonna stick with him folks, and we ain't changin' her mind. <any more commenting is just so much masturbation. guess he does have a huge johnson after all.>

<Ah yes, because I don't have the intelligence to love a man for anything except his penis. Except that we've never had sex - by choice. >

Unfortunately your post didn't help address the issue I was asking for help with. I don't recall asking for anyone to try to change my mind. I realize that you might not be here to offer help, and that is your choice, but in which case I'm unsure why you even responded?

TL, sorry if I seem harsh, but I have to say... I went down that very road and have come out on the other side. I don't want to see anyone suffer the way I did or Meri has.

And Kai really is a different story, because he showed backbone and commitment all the way along...

So apologies for harshness, I probably would have ignored my advice too... but I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if someone had made me follow it!

I did not mind the suffering LOL...in the end it turned out AWESOME...but in many ways it is the same...the same because of the controlling issues
and there are many things I have not posted on here for fear of being judged for sticking with him back then on it

but I can tell you...it had to do with a lie of his dad knowing *people* if you all get my drift

and mental health and Freespirit ( I will forever be grateful to this woman for that!! you know what I am talking about girl!) helped us through that hellish time.

it took two years to FINALLY have his parents let him go...


and yep boy did I suffer...BUT some people can handle it others do not want to..and that is okay...each person is different and if TIger is strong SUPER strong to wait..well do it...because I am SO happy I did or I would have missed out on such an amazing man

BUT just know his parents MIGHT not come around ever...and he has to be okay with it and you AND he also has to stand up for you:yes:

TL, sorry if I seem harsh, but I have to say... I went down that very road and have come out on the other side. I don't want to see anyone suffer the way I did or Meri has.

And Kai really is a different story, because he showed backbone and commitment all the way along...

So apologies for harshness, I probably would have ignored my advice too... but I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if someone had made me follow it!

No, you don't seem harsh, and I do appreciate and listen to constructive advice. I also did not mean to imply that he has not ever shown backbone - on the contrary he HAS been standing up to his parents, even if choosing to do so more passively rather than getting "all up in their face". I tend to be a bit more assertive but I also recognize that I'm not always right in my approach.

Again... this is the first and basically ONLY problem we have, and it has only occurred during these unusual circumstances. I am probably one of the MOST grounded and realistic people you will ever meet, and yes I realize that things may not work. But I also don't believe you can say that you love someone and then throw in the towel when the first issues arise. Am I frustrated by feeling like I am being hidden? Yes. But again, this is the FIRST and only issue we have... and I would rather be able to discuss it with him in a way that is constructive than just cut my losses. If we all did that at the first sign of trouble, there wouldn't be ANY couples on the face of the planet.

Granted not ALL families do this... some actually have some common sense. She would do this with ANY woman he chose, it's not about me - and him and his family have said this, that's not coming from any assumptions I've made.

Last time I say something, but I just want to point out one thing! Regardless of his family, your man is NOT making any efforts to spend time with you! If he really cared he would find ways to be on line (internet cafe, a friend's house, a public library, etc...) to be with you!

After all, he may be using his family as an excuse not to deal with you!

Now I rest my peace, good luck to you lilly!

GG....your Kai MUST have been "there" for you and gone through the emotions "with" you, I would think!
This man, from the OP words, is doing nothing to be there for her.
Waiting, loving, commitment are all good and noble things to be sure but when it starts becoming more and more one sided and there is more bad days than good ones........I have to think that love for your own life should be factored into the equasion or it becomes destructive and co-dependent.

Yep Alta.....I agree and I too have said my 2 cents and will now bow out!
Blessings, TD

GG....your Kai MUST have been "there" for you and gone through the emotions "with" you, I would think!
This man, from the OP words, is doing nothing to be there for her.
Waiting, loving, commitment are all good and noble things to be sure but when it starts becoming more and more one sided and there is more bad days than good ones........I have to think that love for your own life should be factored into the equasion or it becomes destructive and co-dependent.

not at first he was not..he hid me like a dirty secret..so I been there...THEN hell broke loose..he stepped up AFTER I said you will loose me if you dont its YOUR choice...basically ..LOL grow some you know whats and stop believing the brainwashing lies


I think MANY moms cant let go of the sons...it happens in ALL cultures
I read so many things on it..I am happy to say I have never done it to my kids..ACK

I will say this I am happy we fought it out with them...because now look..we are a super strong couple..he is a stand up guy and I cant wait till he is home:(

anyway will write later OFF TO WORK! BAH

I may need to edit my original post. I did not mean to state nor imply that he never does anything, is never online, or does not ever make an effort. I stated several times that this issue is only one small part of the total relationship - the rest of which is POSITIVE. The positive still HUGELY outweighs any negative.

My original post did, however, ask for suggestions about how to speak to him about the way I am feeling, looking to redirect things BEFORE it got worse.

I know that several couples on here have gone through some of the same issues, and not all have simply walked away from those issues, and because I have seen some of the wisdom shared in this forum I was hoping to find some suggestions. Yes, I have read the suggestions to leave. And while I was not asking for advice on that topic, yes I pay attention, but that also was not my original intention and not what I needed assistance with. Believe me lol... I know when and how to leave a man, and our relationship is NOT to that point.

<I'm just not sure why when someone asks for help, they get told that they only want someone's penis? I can see why several people have left agelesslove. You post something under "relationship support" and get those kind of responses? That's something his mother would say!>

I believe I will bow out of my own thread now, because unfortunately it's not addressing the issue I requested help with.

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Now let's get this discussion back on track.

Dear Tigerlilly5:

I read your thread and my first impression is that you're wonderfully devoted. Every man should have such a fiancee. But I don't believe that your boyfriend deserves you. You deserve better. It's time that you put your foot down and demand that he steps up to the plate - for crying out loud - he's not even in the dugout! Either he commits to you or you move on. I hope that this advice doesn't discourage you. I hope you don't feel that I'm being too harsh. But you need a "Plan B;" especially with how things are going.

My parents disapproved of some things about my wife, and her parents (well, actually, her mother) disapproved of some things about me. Ironically, our age difference didn't seem to be one of them, perhaps because it was only about 7 years (although even that difference that was pretty unusual back when we started dating more than 30 years ago). We both made it very clear to our parents that while THEY might have chosen somebody else, we were adults and we were who WE had chosen as the person with whom we wanted to spend the rest of our lives, and that while we wanted to continue to have a good relationship with our parents, that could only happen if they accepted the situation and treated our partner with respect.

Ironically, although my mother-in-law and I were never really close, I think she ended up respecting me more than her other sons-in-law, perhaps because my wife and I were there for her when she needed it, but made it clear to her that she wasn't going to run our lives. And although my father died not long after we were married, my mother and my wife became EXTREMELY close -- to the point that she introduced my wife to people as "the best decision my son ever made," and at the end of her life, although she occasionally forgot my name, she NEVER forgot my wife's name.

I've known a number of other couples who have married despite pretty severe opposition from at least one set of parents (if not both) (or at least one PARENT, since parents don't always agree on such things). There are a number of things that can arouse that opposition. It may be an age difference, a race difference, a religious difference, a political difference, or simply a personality difference (and maybe those are the worst). These relationships can work. But I've never know of one that worked where the person whose parent(s) objected wasn't willing to set very clear boundaries and make it totally clear to their parent(s) that they had made their decision and the parent(s) could either accept it or not continue to have a relationship with their son or daughter.

In my experience, if the parent isn't absolutely pathological, and the son or daughter is firm but understanding, the parents generally come around. I'll never forget when the granddaughter of one of my uncles married a guy of a different race. Her grandfather was appalled, and my mother said it was "killing him." But his granddaughter made it clear that if he wanted to see her, she was probably going to be with her husband, and her grandfather was going to treat her husband with respect. The last time I saw my uncle before his death, he was carrying his baby great-grandson around a family gathering and bragging to everybody about how wonderful his first great-grandchild was and how much he liked his granddaughter's husband.

The point of this long post is to say that I don't know exactly how to tell your YM to set some clear boundaries for his parents, but that I think if your relationship is to have any long-term future, he's going to have to do it. If he's not willing to do that, he's not really a MAN, and you're frankly better off without him. I know nothing about the details, but I actually wonder if his mother is really suffering from cancer, or if this is just her way of manipulating her son. (Perhaps I'm oversly cynical about that because my paternal grandmother, who never really approved of my mother for reasons that I still can't fully understand, periodically pulled stunts like that as long as she lived, despite the fact that my father never really bought into any of them.)

The only thing I can suggest is to let your YM know that you're missing him, that there's a limit to how long you're willing to put up with this situation, and that you're rapidly approaching that limit. And then to tell him, as nicely as possible, that while you realize his relationship with his parents is important, he has to recognize that if he wants to have a relationship with you, it's ALSO important, and that if he wants to continue that relationship, he's going to have to make it clear to his parents that they need to accept it and treat you with respect.

TL, I haven't followed all the new replies today, except to "skim" the moderator's note, because I had a thought this mornin' that I wanted to share w/you & the forum.

It really, truly feels to me like you know what the right decision is for you, but you're processing everything to make sure you're following through on it for the right reasons.

I have been going through the same thing with my job, and just about drove my friend nuts. I love my job, I love the people I serve, but I detest the office climate. I've known for 6 mos. that I would not renew my contract and that was the right decision, but so many other things were clouding the issue that I couldn't find peace with it--I felt like I was doing it for all the wrong reasons.

Then something happened last week which made it crystal clear to me that I had made the right decision and was doing it for the right reasons. I didn't realize how much this had been weighing me down until I was freed from it.

I had to run a lot of options past my friends before I had it all sorted out.

whether it's a f2f or ldr, at some point every couple needs to work out how much "couple" time they need. Maybe that's all this is, or maybe it's an indication that as nice as this ym is, he's not the right nice guy for you.

Just keep sorting until YOU feel like it's sorted out.

Hang in there--MM

You are in a relationship not with a man, but a little boy who cannot find his own pants in life. Until he matures to the point where he can make his own decisions regardless of his parent's influence, he should probably stop dating altogether and sit in the living room like a good little boy and serve his controlling, cancerous, hateful mother tea.

Threatening to "off" you is laughable. Anyone who has such connections and can afford those dollars wouldn't warn you - it would just happen.

Tell you what. I'll "off" you and collect the $50K. As evidence we'll print your obituary and fax it over. We'll split the money 3 ways. I'll take $20K as the mastermind, you'll get $15K as an inconvienence fee (after all, it is your obituary :-D), and we'll give the remaining $15K to "pants-less" who can use this to get an apartment 2 countries away from his mother and grow a spine.

Work for everyone? Good.

The only thing I can suggest is to let your YM know that you're missing him, that there's a limit to how long you're willing to put up with this situation, and that you're rapidly approaching that limit. And then to tell him, as nicely as possible, that while you realize his relationship with his parents is important, he has to recognize that if he wants to have a relationship with you, it's ALSO important, and that if he wants to continue that relationship, he's going to have to make it clear to his parents that they need to accept it and treat you with respect.

Earl, thank you for your pearls of wisdom.

I think a LARGE part of the problem is that his parent's don't respect him, so how could they respect anyone else in his life? That's a large part of what he's been using this time while there to work through, and I will say he IS making progress - and I'm proud that he has been able to do so.

We're talking about this, a bit as differing timezones and schedules has allowed so far.

Just keep sorting until YOU feel like it's sorted out.

Hang in there--MM

Thanks MM ... that's what I'm doing. If it was to the point that I needed to walk away, I would have done so without asking for anyone's advice, so I appreciate the encouragement to just keep processing and hang in there for at least the timeframe that I committed to (albeit grudgingly).

Truckman, you're bad.

So very bad.

:rofl:

:yes:Truckman, you're bad.

So very bad.

:rofl::yes::yes:
BUT he can make a mean quiche I hear!!!!!!!!

Bad - No, but I do have a mean capitalistic streak.

Quiche - Yes, but I never eat it. After all, real men don't eat quiche.

Bad -
Quiche - Yes, but I never eat it. After all, real men don't eat quiche.

I think real men eat whatever the Heck they want to, after all they are REAL men....Blessings, Jann

I think real men eat whatever the Heck they want to, after all they are REAL men....Blessings, Jann


heh-heh - you are absolutely correct. But there's been a joke for oh, as long as I can remember, that says "real men don't each quiche", so I just brought that into this since GrumpyGirl mentioned it specifically.

I'm an omnivore - I eat anything that's not nailed down :-D

heh-heh - you are absolutely correct. But there's been a joke for oh, as long as I can remember, that says "real men don't each quiche", so I just brought that into this since GrumpyGirl mentioned it specifically.

I'm an omnivore - I eat anything that's not nailed down :-D

:yes:I remember that saying. It was from the Book *real men don't eat quiche*


*hids the steaks*

I'm an omnivore - I eat anything that's not nailed down :-D



Humm, you could always just eat around the nail! :bgrin2: That's what a REAL man would do:D:D Jann

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Humm, you could always just eat around the nail! :bgrin2: That's what a REAL man would do:D:D Jann

True, nails can make good toothpicks afterwards :D

True, nails can make good toothpicks afterwards :D

:rofl::rofl::rofl:YOU :yes::yes:BADDD