Setting boundaries, breaking it off with LOVE - desperately needing advice (OW/VYM)

I just posted an introduction on the New Members Forum ... I've been lurking here for a couple of months at least ... I'm posting today because I'm at a real crossroads and I need some help as I know I need to discuss some serious matters with my YM but I can't seem to find the right words ... the loving words.

I love my YM more than I have ever loved anyone. This much I know for sure. I do NOT wish to break up with him. I've never been in a relationship where it was necessary to leave while love was still there so I'm having a hard time coming to terms with the reality of this situation. I think that he loves me. I KNOW he loved me at one point ... but lately the stresses of our lives and outside influence and a multitude of things have really damaged that pure love that we once had. His feelings for me may have changed (he says they haven't) but with all that is going on with our personal lives ASIDE from us as a couple, it has become very difficult to really tease out what is really going on with our relationship. Where there was once love, harmony and laughter, we've now managed to foster resentment, bitterness and anger. We are fighting and hurting each other a lot these days. I definitely see that we have a different way of dealing with conflict ... (actually, he wasn't taught to deal with it and that is part of the problem) ... and I know I have definitely NOT set clear boundaries in the beginning when I was sooo in love I just wanted to do everything for him. So the problem now is that I recognize that our bitterness and resentment is going to continue to grow unless and until we talk about some serious issues, set some clear boundaries and are able to discuss these things. We are becoming resentful because neither of us are having our needs met and I can see it very clearly. The problem that I have is that he tends to avoid discussion about serious issues at all costs ... and I can't seem to find a way to let go of resentment and present the issues in a loving, non-confrontational, way ... without giving (or feeling like i'm giving) ultimatums ... without sounding as though I'm laying blame, and without feeling like I'm trying to be a parent rather than a partner. Our issues usually surface during a fight ... and I know that isn't healthy communication at all. I can take responsibility for often times making him feel as though he does not have a say in things ... and I know he has told me that he feels his opinions and feelings are not valid.

Things have gotten pretty ugly and that breaks my heart. He has become quite frustrated and angry and when I do try to approach issues now, he is defensive from the start. I see now his lack of life experience and how it makes it difficult for him to articulate the things he is lacking to feel fulfilled. I see now that he has no idea how to communicate with me to work toward positive change. I see how the gravity of this falling apart is killing us both and we are grappling to deal with it in our own way but we are just speaking two different languages. I know that I am going to have to be the one to step in and make positive changes so that this doesn't end up ugly and painful.

(cont'd in next post)

The past couple of days I've been making notes ... really trying to get my feelings about things sorted out ... listing my expectations of a relationship why I'm feeling those needs aren't getting met ... I'm also trying to put into writing a gentle way to talk with him about the nature of our relationship and how it cannot continue in this way and what I feel needs to happen in order for it to work ...

I know he may not want to hear me on these things but I need to do this for me so that I know I've done everything I can to make this relationship work - it is his choice to handle things in an immature manner if he so chooses but I have to remember that the only person I can control in this situation is myself and I want to handle things in a mature and loving fashion. I am a caring, loving, giving person and I've lost that part of me to some extent lately ... and it's important to me that I don't allow circumstances in life to take away that part of me. I'm going to give him the opportunity to meet my needs one more time and if he cannot, I'm going to leave this situation with love for him in my heart, and no regrets on my part. I don't want to have this end in a bitter way. I love him more than I have loved anyone ... and if this relationship has run its course, I want to remember our love in a positive way & I want that for him too ... he may lack the maturity right now to deal with this in a healthy manner, but I can only hope that one day he can look back with an open heart and remember me fondly and draw something positive from the example I set for him on how people SHOULD love one another and not how he has experienced love throughout his lifetime. I don't want him to look back years from now and remember that crazy psycho chick he was stupid enough to go out with when he was young ... I want him to remember the loving, caring person that I know I am. I want him to be able to someday process things in a healthy manner and know that I loved him ... I want him to KNOW that and never doubt it.

I have been thinking a lot about past conversations between he and I where I felt I was trying to tell him what I needed and I can certainly see how any person - particularly any man, would feel that I was pointing out their inadequacies. Of course this is not my intention but I can see now how it might be perceived that way and how that would certainly put anyone on the defensive ... particularly if they felt they were doing all they could (yes, I'm choosing to believe that he is trying in the only way he knows how) so I'm trying to find a way to express my needs as exactly that ... MY needs My expectations and leave it up to him as to whether he can meet those needs or even wants to without it sounding like a threat or an ultimatum. I also want him to have a voice to be able to tell me what he needs and give me the opportunity to decide if I can meet those needs. I'm not sure how I'm going to do this ... I know in my mind how I want to present things, but I don't yet have the words right ... and I feel that is important for ME. I've come to accept the fact that the things I do will likely not change anything about our relationship and I will probably not get what I need from him and things will probably not change significantly enough for us to remain together and build a healthy relationship ... I'm not doing this with an ulterior motive (at least I'm trying not to) ... I'm trying to get back to the loving person that I know I am. I don't want either of us to hurt anymore ... I love him ... and I can give him the gift of love and still let him go for my own happiness. It's not going to be easy ... it's going to hurt like hell ... but this is the way I want to leave this relationship if it has to end. And maybe this is the lesson I'm supposed to learn from this relationship ... that you can love someone and still know that you have to let go. I truly believe that people come into your life for a reason ... to learn something and grow from the experience. So I'm trying to draw some positives from our time together. We weren't always fighting ... there hasn't always been ugliness and hurt and anger and resentment - these things have grown over time because we are not getting what we need as individuals to meet our expectations of what this love and our lives should be. We really did love each other with that all encompassing love that I've wanted my whole life. It felt good. Love feels good. I know that I still love him. And I choose to believe that he loves me in the only way he knows how ... and with his own definition of what love is supposed to look and feel like. Perhaps our ideas of love at this point in our lives are just too different.

I need to tell him all the good things he has brought into my life ... list all the things that he's done that made me feel so loved and cherished.

I also need to realize that he may blow up on me and not want to hear me ... and I need to decide now that if he does explode in anger, I will walk away and when he is calm, I will come back to the discussion so that he realizes that he cannot control and avoid issues any more by his angry outbursts. If I cannot get him to hear me then I will leave it in writing for him ... but I need to do this for ME ... not for HIM.

I could really use some insight .. some communication help ... some supportive suggestions. I'll say right now that I do not need or want to hear anyone telling me to just get out, cut my losses, find someone who deserves me ... I've been struggling with this for some time now and have come to a point of acceptance. I know things must change. I know we cannot continue like this. I know we both deserve respect and loving communication. I want to set healthy boundaries in a loving manner ... and if those boundaries cannot be met ... and our expectations and needs cannot be fulfilled together, I want to be as mature and loving in leaving this relationship as possible. I do not want him to feel inadequate, insecure, hated, vilified etc ... I love him ... we have had some wonderful times together ... the best of my life ... he taught me what it SHOULD feel like to have someone love you and cherish you. I'd love for us to be able to get that back but I know that may not be possible and I may need to walk away. I doubt that he will see things that way right now - we've talked about breaking up (during fights, ugh) and he has told me he doesn't want that ... but I don't want us to continue fighting until we break up in a vicious fight and leave things on that note. If it must end ... I want it to end before it gets to that point ... before it is too painful and we can no longer remember what it felt like when it was good ... I guess that is part of him helping ME to grow and mature thru this relationship. I don't want another bitter breakup full of ugliness and cruel words.

If we can work it out ... great ... but if we cannot, I want to leave with my dignity and our happy memories untarnished.

I guess I'm looking for help finding the right words ...

Well to be honest, you said alot in your post, but said nothing. From that really long post I got...nothing. You hint at problems, I think you have discussed them with him already based on this quote

have been thinking a lot about past conversations between he and I where I felt I was trying to tell him what I needed and I can certainly see how any person - particularly any man, would feel that I was pointing out their inadequacies.

Are you looking for advice on how to word them to discuss them again? Maybe part of the problem is you can't communicate what you want because you really don't know what you want?

You know, one of the things that I have learned is that it takes 2 people to argue, and 2 people to be nasty to each other, but generally it only takes 1 person to turn it around. Make a vow to yourself not to argue, instead when something is bothering you, just do your best to ignore it and do something nice for him. Massage his feet or make him some brownies, something that will show him that you love him.

One of the things about being in a relationship with a younger man is we have to accept some things as they are. I know each of us enters a relationship with "expectations". Heck I had a list of must haves and must not haves after my divorce, but once I found love-some of those really aren't that important. The truth is, we can't change people. If the expectations that he is not living up to are deal breakers, then yes, cut your loses and walk away and stop torturing the man. If they are things that aren't perfect, but aren't necessarily the mountain you want to die on, relax and let them slide and enjoy the man that loves you.

I know that I have alot of emotional baggage, being a 39 year old divorcee from an abuse relationship. Alot of times I find myself being petty, pushing my ym away, because I am the one who doesn't deal with things well, and my mind has made up all of these things that he doesn't deal with well. In the end the problems are ME, not him. I don't know if this is the case with you and your ym or not.

If outside forces are causing you guys to fight-that is the time to be together and deal with them together. Don't let them divide you-that is what they are hoping for.

I am not sure if any of this helps you-but this is all I can offer based upon what you have said.

I relate to your situation to a point, as my ym and I are in the process of repairing a broken relationship that was once completely harmonious and loving and free of resentment and negativity... a series of events caused a change, and a lot of issues have come up that we've had to grapple with.

I have found that by biting my tongue, recognizing and accepting our differences, and REPEATEDLY inserting loving comments and gestures within our interactions will always soften the situation and remind him (and myself) why we love each other and why we're working to get to a more secure, loving place. Sometimes my ym will become very angry; his voice will begin to rise and he may even sound like he's about to have a tantrum. I respond with a quiet, loving tone, and a reminder that I love him and would do anything in the world to make him happy, and that I would never do anything to hurt him. Even when he is very upset, I'll tell him he's the only one I want, or something of that nature (it's always the truth, even if I'm angry at the time too... it takes self-discipline to utter soft words when you're feeling defensive!). It always helps to change the mood into a loving one, even if we continue to argue (the arguments become more productive and respectful).

If I were you, I'd write your younger man a letter from the heart. Try to keep it one or two pages long at most... fill that letter with positivity, remind him of why you love and cherish him and how you never want to lose him. Tell him you are going to do your best everyday to love and cherish him. Bare your heart; honesty is best. Be wary of giving criticism in any way. Explain that you beleive you both have the ability to become better communicators with conscious effort, a positive attitude, and a focus on gratitude for each other. Propose a new beginning of sorts, and then practice what you preach. Smile at him more, shower him with affection and compliments, and remind him why you are both in love.

I might even recommend some time apart, as it will most likely clear the air a bit and prompt you both to miss each other and think about what it would be like to live without one another. It will most likely work in the favor of your relationship. If not, then perhaps your roads are meant to diverge.

I guess what I'm saying is, DON'T GIVE UP. I think true love is worth fighting for. It's not always easy, and it will take time, but with faith, a positive loving attitude (even when you're not completely feeling like it), PATIENCE and a quiet, loving tone of voice will help your situation immensely. Remember, sometimes loving a younger man means we have to deal with immaturity and a lack of experience to some extent, but it doesn't mean that things will not get better, or that you can't get back to where you were. It's really going to have to be a conscious choice on your part, and beleive me, you can do it.

If he is disrespectful, or continues to respond unreasonably when you bring up issues, then you may have to let him go... but don't give up without trying your best. things really CAN change for the better.

Well to be honest, you said alot in your post, but said nothing. From that really long post I got...nothing.

Are you looking for advice on how to word them to discuss them again? Maybe part of the problem is you can't communicate what you want because you really don't know what you want?

Darnit ... and I thought I did such a good job of articulating what was going on ... *sigh* Maybe that's half the problem ... :confused:

I definitely know what I want. I want a harmonious relationship with someone who wants to communicate in a healthy and respectful manner in order to strengthen our relationship rather than tear it to shreds.

I didn't mention specific issues because this really isn't about the "issues" ... I don't feel at this point that I need to lay our problems out to be picked over when really it's not the issues I need help addressing - it's about my need to approach the issues in a loving way ... it's about the manner in which we are communicating - we are not getting to the heart of issues because we end up yelling, screaming and calling each other names. We USED to talk things out ... but we are both so on edge these days that resentments are building and things are getting out of hand.


If he is disrespectful, or continues to respond unreasonably when you bring up issues, then you may have to let him go... but don't give up without trying your best. things really CAN change for the better.

I guess this is the part I'm most concerned with. I know that both of us are under an immense amount of stress right now that has nothing to do with our relationship. My YM has never had to learn how to deal with conflict in a productive manner and yelling and screaming comes naturally to him. I can understand that this is a natural way for him to deal with stress because our family lives were similar and i had to work hard to learn to communicate rather than screaming and yelling - I'm just farther down that path than he is. I do not want to continue to communicate in this way. I know that disagreements are inevitable but it's the way in which we have begun to deal with these disagreements that is very unhealthy - I've found that rather than being a soft, loving example of healthy communication, I've resorted back to my natural instinct and so we're both feeding off our anger and resentment. It's difficult to determine right now if this is his inability to deal with strong emotion and conflict ... or if it is a sign of trouble to come. Communicating in this manner is a deal breaker for me. It just creates more resentment etc. I would like us to be able to learn together how to communicate in a more healthy manner. I guess right now I'm just not sure if he is willing to work at it ... or if he's content to communicate in this way. When you mentioned tantrums, that is often how I feel he is reacting to things he is uncomfortable dealing with. I don't want to tell him "learn to deal with this in a better way or i'm outta here" or just chalk it up to an anger problem and say he's too damaged to be with ... but rather approach the issue with love and understanding. If he is not willing to work out this problem then we have to go our separate ways but I dont' want to make him feel as though this is his fault ... and if we cannot resolve this then I don't want him to think he is broken and that is why we have to part ...

.. I dont' want to give up ... I want to give us an opportunity to fix it if i can be fixed ... but if it can't then I want us to be able to realize it and go our separate ways before it gets so bad that it turns really ugly.

I should also re-iterate that I feel the manner in which I'm trying to bring up issues has been perceived by him to be condescending and controlling ... as though I'm giving him ultimatums, or telling him he isn't doing things right ... "nagging" ... when my only goal is to confront the issues and deal with them and come to an agreement as to whether we can compromise on the issue at hand ... agree to disagree ... or decide whether it is a deal breaker ...

but we are just speaking two different languages.

This sentence is the one that really stuck out at me, probably because its almost straight out of a book that I recently read that I found was very, very interesting. Actually, most of the language used in the original post seemed to come straight out of that book, so my apologies if you've read it already. Its Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. I hope that I don't sound like an ad for them, but it really spelled out what each gender tends to use for phrases, and how those phrases are interpreted by the other gender. It also has some great advice on how to deal with conflict - going through common phrases that each gender uses and how to rephrase what you're saying so you're coming across better.

Now, I'm currently single, so I really can't say that I've put a lot of the relationship advice to work yet - but I already feel enlightened by some of the gender advice. Its spurred me into actively pursuing an OM I've had feelings for, but explaining some of the hows and whys of his behavior.

-mplskan

This sentence is the one that really stuck out at me, probably because its almost straight out of a book that I recently read that I found was very, very interesting. Actually, most of the language used in the original post seemed to come straight out of that book, so my apologies if you've read it already. Its Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.

Funny ... because while I haven't read the book, I do have the VHS tapes ... perhaps I should pop them in the VCR and watch them - it's been years since I've watched them. LOL I do recall there is one tape in particular that helps you in communicating with your spouse ... I'm gonna go look for it right now.
Thanks!!

You keep repeating in your post that "your needs are not being met", can you be more specific? Its hard to really understand what is lacking in your relationship, in order to give any opinions at all....

WG,

I think you would help everyone here helping you by explaining what the problem is and not what you think the solution should be. I would suggest you try to make a short list of examples that reflect the way you communicate with your YM, and put it out here, so that members can "see" what's going on.

Having said that, the way I understand all this is that you expect a certain behaviour from your YM that is just not there... For instance, you have an issue, and you mention it to him in some particular way, he clams up, you become irritated because you're not getting a response nor a specific action. He withdraws even more... is this what's going on?

I understand perfectly....my ex husband was somewhat of a bully and became more and more selfish as the years went by.
We too had faced major stressors in the last two years of our relationship....moved across the country, sickness, my fathers death, injury, job loss.......A LOT of real problems to conquer.
Neither of us did real well dealing with all of it but when the name calling started and the bitterness grew,....he was no longer my best friend and he had to go!
A year later, I do not know why I put up with it for so long:confused:
I love my life alone without him in it....life is too short!
Blessings, TD

July 13, 2008

Miss Wildernessgirl,

For me, I have boundery problems, which I will need to work more soon, but there are so many things I am working on.

I suggest you go to a meeting of a 12 step group, like:

Coda: co-dependents
Adult Children
Alcoholic Anoymous: they can send you to a nearby group that would meet your needs. Make sure the AA meeting is an open meeting.

One of these groups will either assist you or send you in the right direction.

From what I have learned fro others, a younger man and older man, or woman, all have issues in life to work on. Character defects or simply issuses to change in their lives.

One of these groups should give you the support in your area. You need not mention all details of your relationship, but points that you need to address.

And this group certainly will help.

I feel it is not an age thing, you might be experiencing. But I maybe wrong.

Sometimes individuals feel uneasy in a realtionship but can not immediately put their fingers on what it is that makes them so uneasy.

Life is a journey to enjoy, endure, become stronger from, and sometimes we need to turn it over to God, if we do the paperwork.

Good luck.

Donna

I understand that you may not want to go into details about your relationship in this forum, so I suggest that you visit a couples counsellor. I visited one twice and she clarified what part of my behavior was that of a "wife" and what part of my behavior was that of a "mother".

You may also benefit by setting priorities to your problems and tackling the most urgent ones first. Also, do not discard the good things in your relationship just because some things are not going right.

I should also re-iterate that I feel the manner in which I'm trying to bring up issues has been perceived by him to be condescending and controlling ... as though I'm giving him ultimatums, or telling him he isn't doing things right ... "nagging"


Maybe you are being "condescending and controlling".

Without examples, it's hard to say.

All I can say is that is obviously his reality, even though you don't see it that way.

But to me, it's not HOW you are fighting, but WHY you are fighting so much?

In four years, my husband and I have only had a couple real arguments. Other than that, we may get cranky once in a while, but never a fight with yelling or name-calling. I've been there done that in relationships and it was completely unhealthy. Never again.

To me, it just seems that there are larger issues than how you are communicating. You need to deal with the behaviours & issues that are CAUSING the fighting or determine if they can even be overcome at all.

Okay .... so here goes LOL It's not so much that I don't want to share specific details, it's that I don't want the issues to become the focal point because I already know what these issues are and what I feel I need in order to overcome these issues. I just need to be able to broach the subject with him in a way where he'll hear the issue rather than an attack or an insult of his character. He's quite sensitive and has been beaten down pretty bad by his family and I understand where he's coming from with all that because we have similar backgrounds - I'm just further along in the healing process than he is.

There is one issue that is HUGE for me - he is using recreational drugs. We've already discussed it and I had THOUGHT resolved it however it came up in a HUGE fight the other night and now I need to express my inability to accept this behaviour in our relationship without sounding as though he's getting an ultimatum. I'm trying to embrace a healthy lifestyle. I don't even take over the counter meds unless absolutely necessary. I have friends that use recreational drugs and it isn't an issue for me ... but I don't want a romantic partner that does this. I knew he did this occasionally when I met him - I didn't think it would bother me but soon realized it's a matter of wanting a partner that shares the same core values of wanting a healthy lifestyle. I also realized he was "recreationalizing" :tongue2: a lot more than he had let on. I told him how I felt and he said he didn't need to do it so he would stop. I found out recently that he has been lying and using behind my back. In our fight, he basically said that I MADE him stop and that is why he's been so testy lately. I thought it was his choice because he wanted a relationship with me and I couldn't accept that behaviour. *sigh* Now I worry that he'll lie to me in order to keep the relationship if he feels something is a deal breaker for me - I also worry that he's in over his head and maybe he CAN'T stop but is afraid to admit that. I need to set this boundary but I don't want to flip out or make him feel like he has to hide the behaviour. I want to know honestly if this is something he wishes to continue to do and if so, I want to leave the relationship. It's not that I don't love him, it's just that this will always be an issue for me and is not something I can just "let go". I tried that.

There are small issues like giving back to the relationship - he needs space when times are tough, I need closeness. With all the "stuff" we're dealing with, I'm needing some extra "comfort" and I don't feel I'm getting it even when I ask for it specifically. I also find that he's shutting down and withdrawing from helping with household things but I still need help in these areas. I can be patient to an extent but these things still need to be discussed as I'm finding that I'm growing very resentful of the fact that he USED to help out and now is not, he USED to do little sweet things for me and now he's not. I understand that we are both incredibly stressed with our life situations and I know it's hard to focus on the daily stuff when all that other stuff is around you ... but him withdrawing from our family situation is adding another stressor to my day that I just cannot handle.

My other real "deal breaker" is the way that we communicate with one another - lately moreso than before - it's gotten progressively worse.
I know he is responsible for his part but I have not been doing a good job of being a caring partner when it comes to approaching issues in a way that he doesn't feel nagged or bullied into doing things. I guess I need to work on my delivery. I used to have trouble with boundaries as someone suggested ... I worked on that and now it's the trouble of setting boundaries that i've let slide for too long. :bgrin2: But it's my delivery I was hoping to get some help with. It's difficult right now to determine if the ugliness is escalating because of the stressors or if it's a real sign of trouble because he doesn't respect boundaries. In any event I do not want to be in a relationship where fighting is not at least somewhat civil and definitely cannot accept name calling and hurtful remarks. I fully accept my part in allowing myself to behave in this manner but it's going to have to be a dual effort to break this cycle. If we keep bringing this out in each other, then I feel we are better off apart.

I realize that we may need some time apart. I also realize we may need to part ways completely. I'm trying to figure out if he's willing to work on these things with me or if he is happy with the status quo .. and if so ... I need to let him go. I just don't want to have a "my way or the highway" conversation with him.

Did I clarify or did I make things worse?? LOL If this forum is getting confused then maybe it's all me ... :eek:

He sounds like he gets mad easy to if you try to talk and communication is HUGE for me in a relationship..IF you cant talk to me calmly to work things out and get mad ALL the time...see you


Drugs..THIS is a big issue with me as well. Kai had done them and choose to give them up because he did not want to be like his father and knew the bad past I had with that issue and my father using them and step father.

You do not MAKE someone do this and he is blaming YOU for it. If he loves you he will seek the help to stop, Plain and simple it is time to put on the big boy pants and stop blaming others for his wrong doing. This is a SERIOUS issue and drugs are not okay IF the other person says no more.

I am hoping you are in therapy to get some personal help (not saying you are crazy sweetie) I know when I went and still do it helped me deal with the past AND his family. Kai (my sweetie) has not been doing drugs for a long time now and still attends his therapy every other day. We are so strong now and happy its ridiculous silly happy LOL..FEELS GOOD!

you need to tell him..look we need to talk like TWO adults and tell him how this is affecting you and how it makes you feel.


Question also...when we do date younger men, we have issues of acting like moms WHEN we do not mean to...I know I did it a few times, telling him WHAT to do instead of asking and involving him to make decisions


Hoping you do not do this as it is a put down to them...

BEST WISHES!!!!!!!

He sounds like he gets mad easy to if you try to talk and communication is HUGE for me in a relationship..IF you cant talk to me calmly to work things out and get mad ALL the time...see you

Question also...when we do date younger men, we have issues of acting like moms WHEN we do not mean to...I know I did it a few times, telling him WHAT to do instead of asking and involving him to make decisions


Hoping you do not do this as it is a put down to them...

BEST WISHES!!!!!!!

Grumpysgirl ... thank you so much for your reply. I can definitely say that yes, the anger rather than problem solving is becoming a problem and is definitely something I'm not sticking around for if it doesn't improve. I do feel that I need to at least give him the opportunity to try to change this with me rather than just bailing tho.

Hmm ... "mothering" ... this is a good question ... and interestingly enough this also came up in our most recent fight. I can admit there are some times when I do tell him what i think he should do ... and i'm sure it's felt like "mothering" even though this is soooo far from my intention ... but I'm trying to encourage him to be involved in making decisions etc and he really doesn't seem to be able to/or want to be involved in that.

The drug use is a HUGE issue for me ... and now the lying to cover up drug use rather than being honest ... that bothers me. Trust and honesty is a must for me ...

I'm just trying to get my head around how to approach things and start the discussion off in the right "tone" ...

I dunno ... maybe this is too far off in the ditch now to fix ... but I'm gonna try at least to discuss things with him. This relationship is important enough to me to at least try.

I should also re-iterate that I feel the manner in which I'm trying to bring up issues has been perceived by him to be condescending and controlling ... as though I'm giving him ultimatums, or telling him he isn't doing things right ... "nagging" ... when my only goal is to confront the issues and deal with them and come to an agreement as to whether we can compromise on the issue at hand ... agree to disagree ... or decide whether it is a deal breaker ...

Sometimes, when it's really important especially, it has less to do with how we think we're saying something than how the other person is perceiving it. I know you want to work through the issues, but perhaps before you can quite get there, you need to work through finding out from him how he needs you to word what you're saying so that HIS perception is different. Ask him specifically which comments might make him feel that way, and how you could word it to better get your point heard. It might help if you start with that discussion, making it very nonthreatening by focusing on the fact that you want to make yourself a better communicator for him, not that he's hearing you wrong.

I need to express my inability to accept this behaviour in our relationship without sounding as though he's getting an ultimatum.


The only way you can do this is if is ISN'T an ultimatum.

But to me, it sounds like it is.

You use terms like "boundary" and "deal breaker" and "trust" etc.

You say that you'll want out if he won't quit using drugs.

There's just no way to do this without trust and honesty - by BOTH of you.

By trying to sugarcoat that you don't want to be with him if he continues to do drugs, he won't know how serious it really is for you.

Having dated an alcoholic, I know how painful and frustrating the lies and deception can be. If you are not careful, you will become a co-dependant, continuing to make excuses for him out of "love."

Setting a boundary IS an ultimatum.

You need to be honest with him and I would say, "I love you, but this is simply a deal breaker for me. I'll understand if you don't want to quit using, but I just can't live with that. If we stay together, we'll only make each other miserable, because you'll feel that I'm trying to control you. We already fight way too much and it seems to all come back to the same thing.

If you want to make this work and are willing to give up the drugs, you'll make me happier than you can ever imagine!! But I'm just too old for playing games and dealing with people doing crap behind my back. If I found out you were deceiving me, it would break my heart.

So, let's do this like grown-ups and decide if we are really right together or if we'd be happier finding someone who shares our different value systems."

Anyhow, having gone through the horror story of my life while I was with the alcoholic, thinking it was all about love, and then moving on to find my wonderful husband, who showed me that I was worth something and COULD be happy without all of the drama, I hope you'll decide that there is just no easy way to do this except straightforward and to the point.

If it is meant to be, then he'll step up an do what it takes to be with you. If not, there's some party girl out there for him and there's a wonderful man out there waiting for you to find him, who shares your core values.

Don't sell yourself short.

Sometimes, when it's really important especially, it has less to do with how we think we're saying something than how the other person is perceiving it. I know you want to work through the issues, but perhaps before you can quite get there, you need to work through finding out from him how he needs you to word what you're saying so that HIS perception is different. Ask him specifically which comments might make him feel that way, and how you could word it to better get your point heard. It might help if you start with that discussion, making it very nonthreatening by focusing on the fact that you want to make yourself a better communicator for him, not that he's hearing you wrong.

Thank you ... I will definitely have this conversation with him first as I think that is part of the problem ... I realize that it is his perception most likely but I hadn't thought of putting it to him this way.

You say that you'll want out if he won't quit using drugs.

There's just no way to do this without trust and honesty - by BOTH of you.

By trying to sugarcoat that you don't want to be with him if he continues to do drugs, he won't know how serious it really is for you.

You need to be honest with him and I would say, "I love you, but this is simply a deal breaker for me. I'll understand if you don't want to quit using, but I just can't live with that. If we stay together, we'll only make each other miserable, because you'll feel that I'm trying to control you. We already fight way too much and it seems to all come back to the same thing.

If you want to make this work and are willing to give up the drugs, you'll make me happier than you can ever imagine!! But I'm just too old for playing games and dealing with people doing crap behind my back. If I found out you were deceiving me, it would break my heart.

So, let's do this like grown-ups and decide if we are really right together or if we'd be happier finding someone who shares our different value systems."

Anyhow, having gone through the horror story of my life while I was with the alcoholic, thinking it was all about love, and then moving on to find my wonderful husband, who showed me that I was worth something and COULD be happy without all of the drama, I hope you'll decide that there is just no easy way to do this except straightforward and to the point.

If it is meant to be, then he'll step up an do what it takes to be with you. If not, there's some party girl out there for him and there's a wonderful man out there waiting for you to find him, who shares your core values.

Don't sell yourself short.

Thank you so much for this post. I think I am looking for a way to show him that is it about ME and what is acceptable to me rather than sounding like I'm telling him what is wrong with him ... but at the same time making him realize that this IS a very serious issue for me and one that I cannot live with ... does that make sense? The way you worded it is exactly the way I wanted to approach it but sometimes when you're in it ... with all the emotion behind it ... I find it's hard to find the right words.

I am definitely worried about this being a bigger problem than just a recreational thing and definitely don't want to be setting myself up for the situation you found yourself in.

Honestly, my gut tells me that I may need to end this relationship which is sad ... but I know sometimes it's the losing of what you thought it could be, rather than what it is that hurts the most. *sigh*

Well, I guess my first question on the drug front would be-did he do them when you met him? If so, you fully walked into the relationship knowing that was something he did. It would be not only wrong of you to expect him to change, but wrong to even ask. When my ym and I started dating, I smoked-not alot, but I knew he didn't like it, so I stopped for him. He never asked, and if he would have I probably wouldn't have stopped unless it was something I wanted to do. Just because he doesn't stop when you asked, doesn't mean he doesn't love you tho. If he started after, then I would think one warning that he needs to stop or your relationship will end should be enough. Threatening, cajoling, etc only wears on a relationship.

If he is lying/hiding the drug use it is not because he is dishonest, it is because he doesn't want to deal with your reaction. I am not sure what kind of drugs we are talking about, but there are some drugs, pot for example that really have no effect on a relationship. I think if you started the relationship with him doing drugs, and their usage is not effecting his daily functioning, you need to ask yourself why you are adamant that he stop.

The helping around the house and anger issues are big. I don't know any way to broach them without being just straight forward. Maybe you need to tell him straight up that this is the last time you want to talk about it, because you don't want to seem naggy or mothery. But let him know how important it is that these issues are remedied or they are "deal breakers". Sometimes you cannot help how other people perceive your comments, and maybe him perceiving them the wrong way is part of a bigger problem. My ex bf, who was also a younger man always felt unequal to me and I guess I looked at him the same. That was one of the biggest problems in our relationship.

Well, I guess my first question on the drug front would be-did he do them when you met him? If so, you fully walked into the relationship knowing that was something he did. It would be not only wrong of you to expect him to change, but wrong to even ask.

Minasmom ... as I said in a previous post:

I have friends that use recreational drugs and it isn't an issue for me ... but I don't want a romantic partner that does this. I knew he did this occasionally when I met him - I didn't think it would bother me but soon realized it's a matter of wanting a partner that shares the same core values of wanting a healthy lifestyle. I also realized he was "recreationalizing" :tongue2: a lot more than he had let on. I told him how I felt and he said he didn't need to do it so he would stop.

When we first got together, yes I know he did this ... and I didn't think it would bother me because I have friends that do the same. However I soon realized that I was not as okay with it as I thought I would be ... I guess it felt different since he is someone I considered a potential long-term partner. I should add that when we did talk about it, I felt he had a handle on it and he stated that it wasn't something he expected to do long-term so I agreed to let it go. HE OFFERED to stop using and told me that he didn't need them ... it was his decision to stop.

If he is lying/hiding the drug use it is not because he is dishonest, it is because he doesn't want to deal with your reaction. Is this still not dishonesty? He's LYING. Lying is dishonest, no?

I am not sure what kind of drugs we are talking about, but there are some drugs, pot for example that really have no effect on a relationship. I think if you started the relationship with him doing drugs, and their usage is not effecting his daily functioning, you need to ask yourself why you are adamant that he stop.
Hmmm ... I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this point ... my ex from my younger days smoked pot and I could tell when he was smoking it because he would scheat on me, and was very very violent. When he wasn't smoking pot, he was the sweetest guy in the world. (And that may be why I'm not comfortable with my YM using .. because I see how it can change some people in a negative way).

When it really became an issue for me was when my YM started disappearing for days on end and I was worried sick not knowing where he was as he normally would call me several times whenever he was out just to tell me he loved me and missed me ... so yes, you could say that his behaviour changed dramatically. He also lost his job and this is when a lot of other things began to change.

The helping around the house and anger issues are big. I don't know any way to broach them without being just straight forward. Maybe you need to tell him straight up that this is the last time you want to talk about it, because you don't want to seem naggy or mothery. But let him know how important it is that these issues are remedied or they are "deal breakers".

You are probably right about those issues ... thanks for your input ... you have have given me a lot to think about. :yes:

He's using and he's lying, what else do you need to know! A drug addict (and he is a drug addict) is virtually incapable of telling the truth! Tell him you'll see him after he has his life straightened out and he is clean, then perhaps he can start building up some trust with you again... there is no such thing as 'recreational' drugs. Sorry but I have very strong views on drugs and I do not believe there is such a thing as 'recreational' drug use, that is just an excuse, and explains his moods a lot. I had a child on 'recreational' drugs and there was nothing recreational about it, I went through a lot of what you describe with her and basically practiced tough love! Stopped all financial support, made her seek councelling and leave behind the 'friends' that supplied, 6 months later she was like a new person, drug free, has been now for 5 years and the change in personality was remarkable! I wouldn't trust this person as far as I could throw him at the moment... sorry, I know this is a harsh post and I really do feel for you and your situation but I can here alarm bells everywhere with what I have read of the situation!

I don't think at all that your post is harsh. It is truthful. You come to the point very well.

I have been around people abusing alcohol, and I know that it is not possible to have a relationship with someone abusing any substance. It is always a threesome - the addict - the codependent and the substance. Fullstop.

Also I have never heard of a recreational drug. That is b***sh**.

Sorry but I have very strong views on drugs and I do not believe there is such a thing as 'recreational' drug use, that is just an excuse, and explains his moods a lot. I wouldn't trust this person as far as I could throw him at the moment... sorry, I know this is a harsh post and I really do feel for you and your situation but I can here alarm bells everywhere with what I have read of the situation!

Thanks for your input and no, I don't think it is harsh at all. :no: This is the reason, however, that I didn't want to post specific details of our problems because I didn't want it to be a debate on whether some drug use is okay and some isn't, and people telling me the red flags they are seeing. I know what my views are, I know what his views are, I know what our current reality is and I know that I am not okay with it. I do have very close friends who have and currently use drugs "recreationally" (call it casually, socially, whatever) and it does not affect their day-to-day lives whatsoever ... as a matter of fact, I did not know that some of these people used drugs until recently and I've known them for a long time ... which perhaps is why I became a little less opinionated over the past couple of years, about drugs in general - although it is still not something that I feel is right for me, I respect their ability to choose for themselves.

People have very different and very strong views on drugs and while I have never used drugs and never will, I do try to be open-minded, particularly when it comes to things I have not experienced myself. I did speak to several people in the beginning about my concerns/feelings and tried to allow him his own experience as I do know a lot of people who sort of go thru the experimental stage and then grow out of it. I do try to allow people their individual choices even tho they differ from mine. I thought that because he said his use was "recreational" or "social" only, that it wouldn't be an issue for me. This is not something that we haven't discussed before and I thought I knew how I felt - I also thought I knew the reality of the situation. Things have changed however ... as they often do in a relationship ... and now I need to tell him in a loving, but firm way, that I cannot continue down this path - I don't like where it is going.

Thank you very much for your suggestions and input. I have decided now the way I want to deal with this issue and hopefully will be speaking with him this evening (he's been at a friends' for the weekend). I will post an update once I've spoken with him.

Thank you to the forum for all the support ... :)

I have just one other question for you.... (and believe me, I know how hard it is to answer TRUTHFULLY about this!)....

Would you HONESTLY put up with this behavior/situation with any other man/relationship?

You cannot sacrafice your own well being/sanity and heart for someone who is not willing to do the same. I'm sure he loves you, but co-dependency is also a disease. Any relationship is hard enough (regardless of AG), mix in a troubled past, drugs, etc... your road is even more rocky.
I wish you the best of luck... I know this is a rough road you're travelling. My thoughts are with you.

As soon as you mentioned drug use, that, to me, became the most important thing.

When it comes to putting 'recreational' substances into my body and brain, I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Heck, I've got a dozen of 'em. It's been a looong time since I did anything like that. And I wouldn't put up with the man in my life doing any type of recreational drugs. Period.

With all due respect to MinasMom, I strongly disagree that pot has not effect on a relationship. Perhaps it doesn't have any effect on yours, MM, but I've seen it cause a lot of problems for a lot of relationships.

If he's doing other drugs, you're dealing with someone who is not even mentally on the same planet as you are. If you've never done drugs, you probably don't realize how far away from normal a line of coke or crank or whatever is taking him. (Heck, its hard enough for two straight people to communicate when they're having problems, much less one or both of them being high!)

As Kristin said, when you set boundaries like this for yourself, they are, in a sense, ultimatums. For them and for yourself. There is nothing wrong with ultimatums, regardless of the fact the people say they carry too much pressure. Well, that's what they're supposed to do! You can't possible tell him that it's you or the drugs without it sounding like and being an ultimatum. Whether or not you actually follow through is the question.



Would you HONESTLY put up with this behavior/situation with any other man/relationship?



I think that we see this question asked here a lot, to encourage each other to consider if we're making allowances for YM that we wouldn't make for men our own age. Honestly, I think that it's difficult to answer this question in regard to a lot of possible relationship topics/issues. We often THINK we know what we would do...until we find ourselves in that position.

However, I can honestly say that doing drugs is one thing that would not pass for me in ANY love relationship.

WG, if you are trying to resolve other issues, it is unlikely that you'll be able to resolve those issues until his head is as clear as yours.

[QUOTE=MisKryptonite;574808] Any relationship is hard enough (regardless of AG), mix in a troubled past, drugs, etc... your road is even more rocky.QUOTE]
Exactly why I added the above part... it is VERY difficult to answer. I question myself all the time... and yes I do "make allowances" for some behaviors because my man is YOUNG and just doesn't have the life experience to know how to deal with certain things... but do I let him off the hook? OH NO... how will he ever know what NOT to do, if I don't let him know there was a better choice he could've made!
and I agree, drugs/alcohol...not good. You're not getting anything YOU need from this relationship. You spend your time probably worrying and wearing yourself down... you can't "save" him from himself. A one-sided realtionship never works, and it's not worth the heart-ache just to have someone. There is someone out there who will love YOU, not use you as a rest stop on their path to self-destruction. This kind of love hurts more than anything else. Again, my thoughts go out to you. I lived your life already, by the time it was over, I nearly lost my kids, I had no money left and no self-esteem. It's now 4 years later and he still tries to contact me, even though he got married in April. Pay attention to what the people say here... there's a lot of experience in these pages!

And this is precisely why I tried not to bring specific issues into my question.

While I do appreciate everyone's advice (I really, REALLY do) ... I am already quite aware that this is not the path I want to continue on. I just wanted help in finding the right way to approach the situation ... I have had some very good tips/suggestions on that note and will be speaking with him in the next day or two.

Send positive vibes for a peaceful resolution that will set both of us on the right path in life :D Whether it is together, or apart :D

I'll update once I have news.

Thanks again :D

Sometimes, you just have to say "Babe, you're a nice guy. You just aren't the right nice guy for me," and leave it at that. Anything more is a waste of your time and effort, 'cuz they're not in a place where they can hear it.

*hugs*
Breaking up sucks.

The other MM

Sometimes, you just have to say "Babe, you're a nice guy. You just aren't the right nice guy for me," and leave it at that. Anything more is a waste of your time and effort, 'cuz they're not in a place where they can hear it.




That is true. And that is a good way of putting it.
Another alternative would be to say "You are a nice guy, but my gutt feeling tells me that we are not made for each other." Nobody can argue with your gutt feeling because it is YOUR feeling.

Both approaches now give you a way to get out of it without naming specifc reasons (that could be grounds for further discussions). I have learnt that the more I justify the more I deliver material for further discussions.