What about kids?

Sorry if this has been covered, but I am new. I have been in a relationship with (and totally in love with) a man 24 years my senior since I was 20, 7 years ago. It has been a roller coaster ride...mutual loathing between him and my parents, lack of support from friends, ex-wife issues, etc. We have managed to make it through all of these things with joy, love and humor. We got engaged in 2001, but I broke it off because now, at 27, I want to have a child with him. He doesn't want kids, ever. I love him so much, but am at a total loss. I do not think this would be as much of an issue if we were the same age. I just don't want to be a 50 year old widow, totally isolated from my family and alone. He doesn't want kids because he wants my undivided attention. He says he loves me and wants me to be happy, so I should leave and find what I want in life. Well, I want him, but I also want a family. Am I being unreasonable? Is he? Should I give up children for love? Should I give up the love of my life for the possibility of finding love again?
Please help.

Children are a very serious relationship issue which should never be overlooked when choosing a life partner. It sounds like your guy wants to be your child himself. He seems to be too self-interested to fulfill a relationship with you, which would be fine if you felt the same way. A child is a bonding product of the love of two people. It is obvious that you really want that fulfillment in order to complete your love circle. He doesn't and has told you to leave because he is not interested in having a child with you. I think you should follow your heart and search for a man as caring as you are who will give you a family.

Good luck.

If child bearing means that much to you and I know that it does I can feel it as I read.... No you shouldn't settle for what HE wants....... You may want to talk to him and tell him that if things work out like normal and he passes on first that you want to have a child to live through him... maybe that means having one child instead of two or three as a compromise but if you also want more that's not bad either....... I Honeslty t hink if you want children you should because if you don't because of him now then you will regret it for the rest of your life....do NOT make a harsh decsision because remember you need to live by it

Thank you so much for your thoughtful responses.

I just wrote a long reply, but it didn't post, so I will sum up by saying that I have tried everything on this topic, and am even willing to compromise on having my own biological child (adopting instead because one of his issues is zero population growth). Still nothing though. Since we have been through so much, probably all of the issues that you are all bringing up...parental disapproval, friend disapproval, long distance for 2 years, etc...I thought that we could make it through anything. I guess I was wrong. He and I love each other so much, and are so profoundly connected, so I cannot even imagine walking away from him and from love. I guess I was looking for just one person to tell me that love is the most important thing and to not let it go now that I have found it, even if it means giving certain things up. I don't think I am going to hear that. I have never sought advice on any topis before this, but this is the first time I have been absolutely torn apart and had no idea what to so. Even the decision to start the relationship was an easy one. There really wasn't any other choice. It was like magic, or some universal force pushing us together, contrary to all reason. The thing that hurts the most about all of this is that I am willing to give him everything...financial support through his retirement, care in his latter years, love and companionship, everything...if he would just give me this one thing. It hurts knowing that he would rather give me up completely than share my attention with our child. I guess this means I will no longer be a part of an "ageless" couple.

For those of you starting out, I wish you all the happiness in the world. I know from experience what it is like to love someone with your whole heart, even if it looks ridiculous to the rest of the world. My situation has been especially difficult for my family and friends to understand...I am ivy league educated, earn a 6 figure salary, and am in love with a man old enough to be my father who earns 1/2 my income. Everyone who I talk to thinks there must be something wrong with me..."Is he like your dad?" No. He is not. I have a great dad who I get along with and love very much. Thanks for trying. Don't let people change your mind. If the love is right, then you will know it with 100% of your heart and nothing else matters. Even though no one could understand it, our love worked until this child issue came up. If he would have a child with me, I would be the happiest person on earth, and would be by his side for the rest of his life.

For the men, don't let fear destroy your relationship. Fear really hurt us. He was always afraid that I would leave him for someone younger, more collegiate, with an inheritance. I don't really want anything but a life and a family with him. You have to trust in your love and realize that there are no guarantees regardless of age. If she loves you, she will not leave. Fear caused him to hold back for a long time, and caused him to push me away too. Don't let that happen to you.

Thanks again. I am not sure what to do now. But I have a feeling it will involve breaking 2 hearts.

about what is going on with you. But there are some things that need to be made clear, here. What I am about to say isn't the most popular statement in the world and it is highly likely that it will get taken the wrong way, however, I personally believe it to be true. Now, keep in mind that saying this is certainly easier than putting it into practice.

Do whatever you have to do in life to make yourself happy. Do NOT "sacrifice" anything for anyone else unless you have the ability to forget about taking score. One should never, EVER say "Well, I sacrifice this for YOU, so you need to sacrifice something for ME." That is not compromise. That is one giving into another's demands as payment for "sacrifice." True sacrifice does not look toward what they are going to get back in the end.

Another thing about sacrifice is that people seem to believe that it will bring them good karma. You know, the whole "one good turn deserves another..." kind of thing. "Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.." That sentiment isn't pure. If you sacrifice things solely because you expect (conciously or sub-conciously) something in return, it's not a "good" thing for you.

I've come to realize that the best thing a person can do for themselves and others around them is to do what makes YOU happy. Look toward goals for yourSELF, reach them and be happy with yourself. A person who fulfills their own needs is a much better partner than someone who sits around thinking that their needs are going to be met by someone else's sacrifice. That doesn't mean that you should be careful about other's feelings or wants or needs, but just that you should be strong in the area of being self-focused without being selfish.

That being said, don't take that as "If you want a baby, go have one..." What that means is, take your desire to have a child; remove everyone else (your parents, your boyfriend, the rest of the world) from the equation and how strong your desire is.

If it's your biological clock or even your heart that is driving you to have a child; and it's so loud that you can't ignore it; then you have some choices to make. If you want a child for the sake of having a child, then you need to take some time to think about what you want and need. Just because you love this man very much doesn't mean that you are destined to be together. Even if the world turned itself on its ear to get you two together, that doesn't mean you will be staying together. It might mean that he was what you needed at the time, to grow, love and learn. If you want a child that badly, then you need to free yourself up to find someone who is not only good to you and loves you, but that has similar goals as well.

Now, if you think about all of that with all outside parties removed from the equation, and you're "not sure" or if you see that you don't just want a child for the sake of having a child, but that you want a child with HIM and him only, then the both of you need to talk some more about this issue. If he is solid about his decision, then thank him. At least he knows what he wants. You can't force fatherhood on a man - especially a man who seems to want all of your attention. It is completely unfair to the CHILD (who will have no say in this, whatsoever) to risk him/her having a father that doesn't want them or will resent thier presence.

I wish you lots of luck and love. I'll be praying that things work out for you.

Love,
Happy

Danika, and everyone else.
I know you are all 100% right, but unfortunately, that doesn't relieve much of the pain right now. This is hurting both of us so much, and while he is outwardly trying to be a gentleman by allowing me to go, I can see that inside he is just as torn apart as I am.
It really doesn't seem fair.

As I said before, Danika, if you or any of the other 20-somethings need/want any advice from me, I am happy to give it. I was in your shoes only a few years ago, and I understand many of the issues you are facing.

As a matter of background, I starting dating my OM when I was 20, and living on the east coast going to college. He was on the west coast. After college, I returned to the west coast for graduate school, and while we were not in the same immediate area, we were still close enough to see each other more frequently. He was married before he met me, but split from his wife about 1 year before we started dating (although I am still not exactly sure on the timing here...he was always a bit vague). His divorce was not final until we had been dating a full 4 years. This was a sore point for us. He claimed that he couldn't get it finalized because of various financial reasons. I was angry with this because he remained friendly with his ex, and kept her moderately in the dark about me.

I was 100% into the relationship from the beginning. When we first got together, it was so amazing, almost love at 1st sight. We both tried to talk ourselves out of it, but realized that was futile fairly quickly. My feelings for him (being totally, head-over-heels madly in love) have never faded. Still when I see him, I just melt, when I'm in the same room with him, I have to be touching him, when I'm away from him for any length of time, I feel like I'm missing an arm or something. I never thought it was possible to feel this way about someone.
He was always afraid I would leave him. It took him about 5 years to realize that I want no man other than him.
But, then this child issue came up. I want a family. He says a family can be 2 people, which I agree with, but I can't help wanting more than that. As was said in an earlier post, I want to complete my circle of love.
Throughout all of this, I got huge opposition from my family. My father kept mentioning killing him (he never would do it, but that's how he felt). When he and I became engaged, and I was so excited and brimming with happiness, my mother looked at me and told me that I was making the biggest mistake of my life.
Thanks for the support guys.

My point is, I know what you all are going through. I have been there. Good luck to all of you. There are some unique issues in age gap relationships, and I hope that you can overcome them. Love is such a beautiful thing, regardless of its package, and the world is a better place because of it.

Emmiegirl

Patricia, we are all different people who want different things in life. I think you were a bit harsh.

Not wanting kids does not make someone “too self-interested to fulfill a relationship.” It seems to me if your reasons for having a child are to have a “bonding product” or “complete your love circle,” or even to "fufill a relationship," something isn't quite right. The desire (or lack there of) is not a measure of ones ability to “care” as you implied.

Emmiegirl-
This man was honest from the get go. He said he doesn't want kids, and if this is something important to you, you need to make other plans. He has obviously thought through is position and now you need to do the same. I know this is hard, but as an attorney earning six figures you are very good at looking at the facts of a situation and dealing with them appropriately. What do you want more? It sounds like the answer is kids. So now you know what you need to do, as painful as it might be.

I know I have just been very blunt, but those are the facts. The philosophy of “all we need is love” is bunk. Reality needs to play a huge part in things when we choose out partners. Turning on our hearts does not mean we turn off our brains. Love isn’t a trap we fall into, it is a decision we make.

For the record, I am one of those people who are childless by choice. I have not regretted that decision once in my 37 years. We will see what the next 37 years will bring, but for now I am quite content and don’t see that changing. This is the right decision FOR ME.

Danika was right. Being a 50-year-old isolated widow is something to consider. Again, that reality thing. But having children does not guarantee you won’t die alone.

To be clear Emmie, I do not think you are wrong to want children. That is a sincere desire of your heart, and this is a difficult situation. I feel for you. I was always afraid of falling in love with someone who wanted children as much as you do. While not privy to the plans of the universe, I don’t think we get only one chance at love. Good luck with your decision.

Meg

I don't think Patricia was harsh at all... She is just saying that it is a serious issue which needs to be heard and corrected by which ever method she chooses..... She should NOT settle for no if she wants kids.... she should honestly look into her heart and figure out what she needs to do...If my fiance tells me he doesn't want kids then I am OUT the door..... They are extremely important to me... there is NOTHING wrong with being childless either... it's all descisions we make in life doesn't mean it's wrong or right but what is GOOD for you.... So I think we are all giving valid points and this site is for support and thoughts..doesn't mean anyone here should take our words as we are GOD and that our words are set in stone we just help the process.....

If you want kids and it is that important you shouldnt settle at alll.... YOu don't want to regret it later on in life you can NOT turn back the clocks.....

I agree with what everyone is saying. This is a very hard decision, primarily because neither decision is right or wrong in an of itself. Yes, there are intellectual decisions and decisions of the heart, and here I have a combination of the two. Intellectually, I know that I should move on and find someone who wants the same things I do. But my heart tells me that I am supposed to be with him and have a child with him. Essentially, I want something that does not exist. I realize that. And while I am all about standing up for myself and what I need, this is still the hardest decision I have ever had to make.

Danika, he and I talk about this everyday. We have both basically begged each other to change our minds. He wants me to be happy with just him, and I want him to see things my way. Yes, he has been very clear from the beginning that he never wants children. When we first got started, I was only 20, and I wasn't really sure, so I almost "grew up" convincing myself that I didn't want children either. But now I do, and no matter how hard I have tried to convince myself that a child-free life with him would be fulfilling and would bring me happiness, my desire resurfaces. So, here I am.

I am doing ok under the circumstances. I am very sad, and I think it will get worse before it gets better, but I will survive.

Also, everyone go ahead and post whatever you think needs to be said. Do not worry about sounding harsh. I think this forum is great, and sometimes I really do need and appreciate the reality check.

I hope none of you ever have to go through this. It sucks!

Stating "Happy4Me"'s response a little differently "love should never be a bargaining chip." In any relationship, be it work, family or love, you have to have two people wanting the same thing or else it will not work.

Hi Emmie,

I've been following your thread. I'm so sorry you are facing such a difficult decision. I think I am probably one of the older (younger) women on the board. I always wanted children and I am blessed because I had children before I met my OM. I think that a future without him would be very difficult if I didn't have my love for my kids.

I think we all must follow our hearts when it comes to issues like having/not having children. Really... only you can arrive at the right decision for you... I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents of support. You seem to be a very thoughtful young woman... I'm sure you will do what is best.

Emmiegirl, you have posted such astoundingly good replies to other peoples' problems that I just had to come searching for your original post - because I thought, "whatever problem she's got, surely she can answer it very adequately herself."

But once again, wise people like you can only be knocked askew when under the mercurial spell of "the love state."

Because that "love state" has little objectivity, rationality and cool clear-headedness. The "love state" is a creature all its own and when mixed with logic and reason can promote madness, intense emotions, confusion... can beguile and inspire and even delude and consume, all at the same time.

I think the very heart of your problem is this statement:

He and I love each other so much, and are so profoundly connected...

Nope.

There should be a warning label on all relationships.

BEWARE: Project intense desires and expectations onto the other person at your own peril.

I would bet that quite a bit of your supposed total synchronicity with your guy is projection.

I am fighting a losing battle convincing you of that because the "love state" has you in a grip far stronger than anything I can provide. But I'll bumble on, just the same.

What if I told you he was NOT in the same place that you are?

You want him to be, I know. You want very hard. But he's not.
To you, you are connected in exactly 999,999 ways bar ONE. And if you had that extra one, you would be the perfect total organism of love.

What if I told you that the missing link actually has a ripple effect right back through those other 999,999 supposed connections and changes them on such a profoundly sub-atomic level that if you studied them under an electron microscope you would be VERY SURPRISED at how different your total connection actually was?

Let's imagine that we are DNA. We can't see each other, all we are are sequences of CODE.

My CODE appears just about identical to you in every possible way. There's just one tiny sequence different. It's INCREDIBLE! We are SO MATCHED, so CONNECTED, bar this one, seemingly insignificant thing.

You say, if only that one sequence was the same, and we could manifest ourselves physically, we would be EVERYTHING TOGETHER!

Yes, that may be true. But let's manifest ourselves physically NOW - with this tiny hiccup difference that doesn't seem too much.

*Poof*

You are a six foot tall gorgeous amazon woman and I am a squealing mouse scurrying around on the floor.

Emmiegirl, your DNA of *LOVE* is a beautiful relationship which produces a child as a manifestation of that love.

His DNA of *LOVE* is a beautiful relationship which does not.

AT YOUR PERIL think that you were so close it was heart-breakingly near to perfection, because away from the "love state" - in the cold hard light of the laboratory, it appears quite clearly that YOUR idea of perfect love is as different to his as a six foot amazon to a mouse.:)

Thank you so much for your reply. I think you are right, that I am definitely in a haze when it comes to my relationship. In fact, I tell myself, often multiple times daily, that if I would just take my own advice, my life would be a breeze. You are also right in your assessment that I am normally very rational, level-headed, with two feet planted firmly on the ground. When it comes to him though, I am a mess. I knew that from the beginning, when I (willingly) threw all logic aside and started a relationship that made no sense whatsoever, because it was the undeniable desire of my heart. I have been rational in ALL of the decisions in my life except for this one, I always do my best to do the right thing. This is just too hard for me.

About the projection part, I think you are partially right. I am sure I project some of my feelings to an exent, but I think that everyone does. With regard to my point that were do love each other very much and are profoundly connected, I don't think that is projection. That actually came out of his mouth. Still, your analogy of the amazon woman vs the mouse is certainly compelling. But a woman and a mouse are still pretty different than a woman who wants a child and a man who doesn't. And you are right that my idea of perfect love is him with a child, and his is just the two of us; but I am still trying to come to a solution that will make us both happy, together.

Not surprisingly, we have been talking about this issue a lot lately. His point is that he wants me, just me, and that is all he has ever wanted. He has a lot of fear about bringing a child into the relationship (because of his subideal relationship with his own father, but mainly fear of changing the dynamics of our relationship, i.e., that I would love the child more than I love him). He wants me to find other ways of having children in my life, like through volunteerism or other similar options. He is trying very hard to get me to change my mind, and I still am not sure.

I really do not know what I am trying to say. As I said above, I am much better about giving advice than taking it. On paper, this is an easy decision, but my heart is involved, and so is his, and every time I think about leaving, I get this huge knot in my throat and I can't even breathe. I have tried everything, (even flipping a coin!) and still nothing seems 100% right to me. Because I am usually so good at making decisions, this one has really thrown me.

Anyway, I guess I have met my match. Life is about learning and growth afterall. And the saying does say that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Maybe after all is said and done, I'll look something like that amazon woman you described in your post...

Jocelyne,

I am so sorry to hear about your fiance. It sounds like he was a a very loving, wonderful person.

Puts things in perspective for the rest of us, I think. Life is fragile, love is precious. I hope that knowing how much he loved you brings you joy and hope.

Emmie

On the plus side too, Emmie, I think from memory you are only 27.

27 to you might seem like the end of the world - or your social environment, the people around you might have you feeling pressure at 27 - but you have a year or two or EIGHT or even twelve up your sleeve.

Actually, a very good friend of mine had a child post 40 and she's ecstatic, the boy's great (he's over two now) and things couldn't be happier for her.

Your situation would be a lot different if you were going through this in your late 30's, so at least whilst you're tossing and turning, take some of the pressure off yourself, relax a bit - see what transpires, because even if it doesn't feel like it, one of your great GIFTS right now is that you DO have time on your side, even though part of you is probably telling you that you don't.

I'm sure there's many women from the other side of the board who have had the pressure-cooker and perhaps agonizing experience of "letting go" the fact that they would NEVER now have a baby - so to you, spring chicken - don't unreasonably place too much added pressure on yourself.

You are in the wonderful Shangri-la place of *YOUTH* and *CHOICE*.

Relax! :)

If the worry is because of HIS age, then you are wanting him to do something NOW that he has no interest in - and that as a consequence defines the state of your love together.

You know it, I know you know it - I think the hardest thing for people who know it is to act on their own advice.

Also Emmie, your seemingly innocuous little post, hidden away on this ageless love website, with the title "What about kids?" is in fact the BIG ISSUE, the BIGGEST ISSUE, the BIG JUGGERNAUT in these types of relationships. You can talk about all the other stuff, seek advice on this and that till we're all blue in the face, there is no bigger DEAL-BREAKER than this.

You are right at the FULCRUM. You are at the epicenter of an issue that defines the nature of why men and women fundamentally get together. No wonder you're confused.

That title "What about kids?" should be in BOLD and have it's very own section.

What about kids? It does not get any bigger than that.

I vote for you for best advice-poster on this board.

I too had to go back to your post to get to know the woman with the answers. You have the spirit of my A, the same desires of my A, only the ages have been turned around on my side.

You are facing a tough situation and I am so familiar with the phrase "What won't kill you will make you stronger." I just want to thank you for your responses and to wish you your dream. I am 45 and I want children, A is 17 and she wants two. Christian Jacob and Victoria Alexandria. We have so much more in common.

Love is wonderful if the two of you can share the same dreams and goals, and while doing so...lifting each other to peaks above all reproach.

I pray you make your dream happen. love is unconditional. you have it for each other. But please, live your dream, have your dream. You have the power to will your dream into reality.

Use your power.
-- Marcus

hhdt...i love the sincerity that comes through on your post...just thought I'd let you know that :)

Thanks EM,

I don't like being thrown into a bucket and classified "just like the rest". All I can say is that I have seen what "just like the rest" consist of. Mostly men that are self centered, insensitive, afraid to feel comfortable enough to cry in public, abusers, freaks, and liars. Well, that is just some of them. A loves me because I stand out from the crowd. In her last letter to me, "show them baby, show them all". This is referring to me waiting for her to turn 18. She knew telling the truth would do this. Her power and ability to be truthful and honest, is a challenge many women have. So now I will try to use her power to give me the strength I need.

I just wanted to somehow let emmiegirl know that dreams can come true and they do. Sometimes though, we forget that we can make things happen. We need to be reminded every once in awhile that we have friends, non-judgemental friends out there we can come to (like here) for the encouragement to do what we already know we can do. She has the same power. I think she knows what she wants, and also now knows to use her power to get what she wants. If he loves her, he'll honor and respect her wishes. Woman is God's gift to man. Without a woman, man is truly nothing. Children are the greatest gift a man and woman in love can have. Knowing love is a hard thing to do, and leaving what one may think is love is even harder. The Ying pulls and the Yang pushes.

Who said knowing love is easy. It can be blinding. How do we know it's meant to be and not just our desire to believe that it is meant to be.

Love hurts. But we need to be happy. Happy is different for all of us. For some, a baby, for others, my A. I'll have to stop now before I get too involved with my personal viewpoints. Sometimes I think I talk to much. But I know sometimes we just need someone to listen.

Whatever makes you happy, don't let others get in your way. If you want a baby, give yourself a spacious deadline. If he cannot or won't want to share time, you may have to ask yourself something..

He just said that he wishes I needed him like he needs me. We have gone around and around on this issue. He is never going to change his mind. He wants me to want a life without a child in it. While I am sure that would be a good life, I just can't shake the feeling that I am supposed to be a mom. But at the same time, I haven't been able to bring myself to leave. I love him so much.

Emmie, tell him you went to a fortune teller and, er, this is what was SEEN!

http://images.animfactory.com/animations/people_a_l/family/pregnant_woman_mirror_sizing_up_md_wht.gif

:)

Well, except I have longer hair, I am not currently pregnant, and I'm not a cartoon.

But close enough!

:)

i just read your thread today. i wished i would of read it sooner. what to say. i am here for you.


i would hate to see you or anyone lose someone that they love so much. that is hard. i can understand about lossing an arm or leg not being with you SO. man!!! not a deciedtion i want to have. i pray that edyta want a child and i pray that in 4 to 5 years that i want a child. yes, i agree that child could complete the love cycle. to me what is more important. real close. love for my SO. do not get me wrong i would love to have children with edyta. but i can not see myself with out her. maybee i am that blind or .......... , but all i want is a live with the most wonderful lady in the universe and want the very best for her. i guest want i am tring to say. if i was you i could not leave. emmile you are in the situation and not me. and i am very sad to that thier could be a reanson to leave someone that you love so much. the right thing is to be happy. but if you feel as strong as you do about your om. i would thank it would be more of a lost to lose him. your deciedtion is a hard one. i will give you that. One thing that i can not understand is this. how could you love him any less. and how could he thank that.

i had a day dream last week. about this in away.

i was walking form work to Souper Salad to eat. (i worked out a deal to eat for free) back to my dream. while i was walking over i saw a family get out of there car. i started to day dream about edyta and i having two children. i was about 5 years form now. while we was walk to restrant (do not know witch one) i looked at two beautiful children and thought how wonderful it was to have them with edyta. then i look up at my sweet sweet sweet edyta and give her a very big kiss and told her thank you for having our two wonderful children. and that i love her very much. that was the end of the day dream. i had to wipe my eyes before i went in.

why did i just told my dream to all of yall. sorry about that.

for me emmile. i would stay with your om. maybee not the right chosse. but it is the chosse i would chose. but i am not you.

and like Jocelyne

you could lose your love one before you are ready.

jocelyne i am very sorry about your lose.

You are so cute. I hope your daydream comes true someday. http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage35/20.gif

were did you get your [imp]????[imp]

i need that one. i could pull edyta all the way from germany to me in texas with that. lol


it is like saying edyta come here and give me a sweet kiss. lol

or is that french kiss


lol just have to have fun with your [imp], datura81

It looks like it'd work to pull someone from Germany though. I got that from the link on MariaLux's School of Smileys page- it's not mysmileys.com, but the other one.....if I knew how to make a link, I certainly would, but I have to take this internet stuff one smiley at a time. :)

Thanks Scott.

I do appreciate your kind words and advice. I am just still struggling with my choice...whether I should choose my Tom, the person I love more than anything else in this world, or the other things in the world that I feel I will need to be happy. The desire to have a child is a difficult one to explain, and I never really had it until about a year ago. Before that it was just an abstract idea. The only way I can decribe it is to try to imagine life without the one thing that you really would need to feel whole. Now imagine that there are 2 things that you really need to feel whole, and you have to choose one. The decision is final, and you can't ever go back and pick the other one instead. That's kind of what I am faced with (well, not exactly. I am being pretty extreme here...Spunk reminded me that I AM a spring chicken and have plenty of time to choose).

So, yeah. Not a fun choice. I want Tom, but I want a baby too, and I have too many damn morals to "accidently" get pregnant. Go figure.

I think the neatest thing is that we've managed to officially turn emmie's guy into "Tom".

I don't think (I could be wrong) that his name was ever mentioned anywhere; not even an initial - but after she mentioned he looked like Tom Selleck, well, as they say - the rest is history.:)

Unless his name really IS Tom!!!:eek:

Spunk, you're right. His name evolved into "Tom" because of my reference to Tom Selleck, but I think it was YOU who first started referring to him as Tom!!!

That's fine though, it works for me!

(But please refrain from calling me "Monica" or "Courtney")

:)

Emmie

Well, I pretty much decided what I need to do, but the actual doing it part hasn't happened yet. I think I need to go and find what I want with someone else, but am having a VERY hard time with that decision (enter second guessing, desperate efforts to change my mind, blah, blah, blah).

Don't worry Emmie....

There are plenty of us fish in the sea :-)

GF

27, SWF, brunette, 5'6, 120, corporate attorney seeks kind, funny, intelligent, successful, family-oriented SM who doesn't mind the fact that I'm desperately in love with someone else who won't have children with me.

My phone will be ringing off the hook!!!

Don't sell yourself short.....

Im sure Im not the only one on this site that is watching. ;-)

One of my best friends (age 50) is going to be a father again any day now...... It does happen.

Take care Emmie

GF

He just gave me 2 weeks to make a decision. He told me he wants to marry me again, which I SO want to do. He said that he wants to give this another try, but that I need to decide what I want because my indecision is too painful for him. He just looked at me said that he loves me more than anything on this earth, that he wants me in his life as his wife and that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. He also said that he loves me so much that he is willing to let me go if he can't make me happy. I know what would make me happy, and I am praying that he changes his mind so that I can have that. Otherwise, well, does anyone have a cave I can live in for awhile?

... and I'm not sure why it's a clock that he's attached to a stick of dynamite.

What's this two weeks thing?

Why's that?

Is it not possible for a guy who loves you as much as he supposedly does to not give you ludicrous two week ultimatums to MARRY HIM!!!!!

Hang on, I need to re-phrase that because it doesn't make sense even to me, and I'm a lunatic.

Is it possible for a guy who loves you to find a way of expressing his love other than giving you two week ultimatums to MARRY HIM!

Hang on.

Is it not possible for some other solution?

(Phew!)

I hate enforced time periods. They're usually associated with emotional blackmail. I'm sorry, but this is absolute crapola. You're only 27 for crying out loud. You could live with him perfectly happy, perfectly un-baby-less (!!!!) till you're well into your thirties and make a decision then.

Yeah, right. The guy's so BIG on marriage but he's not keen on babies so let's SHUT YOU DOWN on the baby-front within TWO WEEKS.

I don't often get riled up, but you tell Tom that that sort of ridiculous emotional ultimatum is manipulative and does not seem to express L*O*V*E* to me. At least what I consider to be love.

Or tell him this. He's got exactly forty-eight hours to reconsider having a baby or better still, he's got exactly forty-eight minutes to reconsider having a baby - make that forty-eight SECONDS to reconsider having a baby or he'll NEVER SEE YOU AGAIN...

... and see how HE feels! (Tick, tick, tick...)

If I was Emcad, I'd insert a suitable "Grrrrr" emoticon right here.

:confused:
Why is life so damned hard???

I think im gonna cry.

Emmie - slap his face and tell him to wake up and realise he DOES have your love, and he DOES have the guarantee of you in his life for all his days....gggrrrrrrrr!! (Emcad - how the hell do you do the Grrrr emoticon?? Throw a sister a bone!)

Im sorry, Im quite delirious this afternoon. Ive gone through a whole range of emotions today ranging from depressed, upset, indifferent, frustrated and now im just plain HURT and ANGRY!!!!

Wait, Emmie....for some reason I feel like you have to wait this out. I agree with Spunk and Danika, in that it isnt very fair of him to be holding up a clock...OK, given - I agree...

But....Spunk is also right about the fact that you are only 27, you still have time, the *other* clock hasnt exactly begun ticking yet...so just wait it out for a bit. Your love for each other is very obvious and it would be wrong to lose it now. You said you only graduated when you were 24, your finally getting financially OK with things, which has been a goal for you....a baby would be your dream, granted and nobody can take that from you...but is the timing right for a baby, had he been keen on the idea from now? Honestly?

Wait, because you obviously dont want to give this up, and Im not saying wait a certain amount of time. I guess Im just saying that right here, right now he is a great big, and beautiful sounding, part of your life, and as I said, the other clock aint ticking yet, sis. Maybe with time....he could change his mind - you just never know.

On the other hand, if you choose to make your decision and pick up and leave, I will be here to give you as many virtual hugs, virtual pizza and take out pig-fests at my virtual place, and virtual bottles of as much Aussie Vino as you need to get through it all.

I just havent lost faith in him for some reason yet....

*hugs*

- Munchi

hard to chime in here, because I don't know all the history, but I'm with the others - manipulation. If this guy really has a different strokes attitude ('he loves me so much that he is willing to let me go if he can't (isn't willing to) make me happy'), then you will probably come to resent him for it down the road.

There are compromises in any relationship, but you need to keep the age difference compromises to a minimum whenever possible. It can be a card that is played to intimidate you into making one sided sacrifices that will drive a wedge in your relationship, if not destroy it.

For years, I was the one that made the age sacrifices. Not because he was unwilling to make them, but because I had him on such a pedestal thinking "I want to cherish every minute and after all he is older so his needs are more important." Always worrying about his needs over my own.

Then about 10 years ago I WOKE UP. lol. I laid down the law and put my most heartfelt needs into the mix. Why did I wait? What was I thinking?!! The problem was never his - it was mine. I stifled my own feelings and needs, unnecessarily.

Guess what? He was clueless that I had needs that weren't being met!! guys can be so dense lol. He was so receptive (after the initial ego castration) because he loves me - he was willing to change. That maturity that attracts us is so helpful when we need to teach an old dawg new tricks :-) So a new chapter blossomed in our relationship that would help us ever evolve as loving couple. Rigidity does not make good relationships.

As younger women, we have to watch out for the fear factor that makes us want to 'take care of them', and lose sight of the healthy give and take relationship of similar age relationships.

As far as I'm concerned, a child is one sacrifice he's just going to have to make. I could not have gone through life without a child - an extension of our love. We had one. I wanted a dozen! He had 3 from a previous marriage and didn't cherish the thought of another one in his 40's, but he loved me and knew how important it was to me. He loved me that much. Anything less is not the kind of love that will endure the trials and tests that you will surely go through in life.

smack some sense into him, or move on :) I think the thing that makes these relationships so irreplaceable (sp?) is we are faced with problems that others will never face, and we share our heartfelt concerns and meet somewhere on middle ground. At any age, that is the glue that holds a relationship together. Mutual respect for the others needs.

I don't like the ticking clock thing either... whether it's two weeks, two hours or two years. Maybe he's too anxious for things to continue without a definite decision from you? But how uncertain would you feel if you stayed with him, wondering if he will ever change his mind? I know how hard it would be to leave him. However you end up dealing with this, though, it sounds like you already know what's best for you. My thoughts are with you.

I know the 2 weeks seems like emotional blackmail, but the truth is, I have had one foot out the door because of this for over a year now.

I am tired of not deciding. He is tired of it too. We love each other. He wants to marry me. I want to marry him and have a child. He doesn't want to live with me for 5 years knowing that I am going to leave. Would any of you want to live like that? I know I don't. I just want to make a decision and go with it. I want to either decide to commit to him 100% and take whatever does or does not come with it, or I want to leave and move on. I really do not want to be in my mid-thirties, searching for the next Mr. Right with my clock ticking so loudly that men run the other way when they hear me coming.

I think its just better for me to decide. I can't take the pain any more, and neither can he. I know that a lot of this is my fault for making this issue a deal breaker in my own mind.

I don't know. I need to think about this before I post more because I am just writing stream of consciousness here, and I hate that.

Emmie

Emmie:

I support you in establishing your boundries.

Requiring a decision on a critical issue is not emotional blackmail. It is a matter of facing the problem and resolving it.

I hope it works your way.

GF

I think everyone has made very valid points, and soulmate sounds like she's been in a similar place in her experience - what she says in my opinion is capital 'S' SPOT ON.

I'll only add one final thing. I think "giving" is a big thing to do in this world. "Giving back" to the world rather than take take take.

In this conundrum, emmie, I see the possibilities as someone making a "gift" in the relationship, or someone being made to make a "sacrifice".

I would rather be with someone who was happy to give, rather than someone who wants to take away.

Emmie,

My heart hurts for you. This is hard.

One of the smartest things C and I did was to go for premarital counseling. We had some minor issues, but more importantly were able to prevent some things (we weren't even aware of) from becoming MAJOR problems. She was amazing.

Is this an option for you? Would he go? In my experience it can only help.

Meg

Emmiegirl, I'm wishing you all the best.

Without getting into too many details, this thread has been helpful for personal reasons. It gives me insight into where I may be in a while. My relationship is new--very new, one month yesterday...but this is an obvious problem. If we make it, and I think we have the potential, things are so well-begun, this issue is something he and I will have to work through.

How ridiculous to worry about this after a month, right? Well...I have to. I'm not a causal-relationship kind of person. If I'm in a thing, giving it my time and effort, it's because I believe in the future, and will do what I can to insure that future.

As I say, it's given me a lot to consider. And I thank you, emmie, for giving a bit of yourself in your post; and all the other posters, thanks for their words.

Emmiegirl, I have no advice to give. I wish I did; instead, know my heart goes out to you and I hope you find the path you need to take, and that this path is as easy as it can be for your sake.

no matter what you decide. we will be here for you.

i still lean twards staying with him.

but remember it is your life. you need to be happy with yourself.

I have been telling him that I need to be a mother. I have been telling him that it is not something I can give up and would regret the decision for the rest of my life if I did.

We have been at an impass.

Last night we had a long talk/cry.
He told me that he loves me more than anything in this world, and that he never wants to be away from me, that he wants to marry me, and that he "thinks he is willing to give me anything [I] want."
I was shocked.
Then I started pressing him about it a bit, to find out if he was really serious about it. He explained that he has thought it through and thinks he is willing to completely change his life plan and change his dreams for me. He said that he thinks he is willing to give up his dreams for me. He basically said that he is willing to ruin his life for me, and that he is worried that once he "gives in" to this need, then I will come up with another one (like, what if I suddenly decide I really need 4 kids instead of one, or what if I really wanted a girl instead of a boy...you get the idea), and he would have to face me leaving all over again.

Not exactly what I had in mind.

No decisions made. Just too people in love and in pain.

I still have no idea what to do. I obviously don't want him to "ruin his life" for me. I want something that doesn't exist...I want him to face our future together with joy, not dread.

Major blah.

Emmie

I see the bind you are in. Luckily I don't have this problem. However, I feel it is sad that the two most loved and hated emotions are mixed in this...love and pain. I am glad the two of you talk about it, but it seems as though your conversations send you in circles.

Did he say ruin his life? If he did, I might say that those words would be a hint.

Emmie...I wish the best for you! Keep us updated!

EM

EM -

He didn't say "ruin his life," but he did say change his entire life, and I know that he meant "for the worse." He also said that he had hoped to retire at 55, and if he goes forward with me and a baby, then he'll be forced to work until he's in his 60's. I don't really think this is true, based on many things, but that's his mindset.

I don't think he's strong enough to let me go, and vice versa.

Anyone have a magic wand? Some pixie dust? Anything else that magically changes a person's mind and/or heart?

POOF!
And it is so...everyone's life will now be more simple because of a good spell that I just cast!

Ah, I wish it were that easy. Well, the way I see it, is if this man is willing to alter his life for you, then there truly is magic between the two of you. And you have a heart of gold for not jumping at his proposal and thinking of his best interests too. The two of you have displayed the best act of love...unselfishness. As painful as it probably is...keep talking about it. Don't jump in too quicky...however time's a tickin' and I would hate for you to waste time! Although I must say the fun is actually makin' the baby :)

Awww Emmie,

*hugs and hugs you*

Be patient, wait this through - he obviously doesnt want to lose you and vice versa. You know what? I bet he'll take one look at your child if and when the time comes and will fall head over heels in love all over again. He's just scared - but that was a huge step he took. And I know how youre feeling, Ive felt the same way - you want someone to LOOK FORWARD to doing this, you want someone to be 120% sure this is what they WANT, not what they feel they are forced into doing at the risk of losing you if they didnt...sigh

This opposes every plan he had for the future in his own mind, so in essence you can only make an allowance for him to feel like he has bent over and changed "for the worse" but I truly believe there's a learning curve even for him here. I think in time he will see this as not only a good thing but the best thing to happen to him. Just give him time.

As for you - I think you will make a wonderful Mom. You have so much goodness in you and I think I speak for the entire board when I say that as you have given so much good insight and advice everyone.

Keep us posted hun
Love, Mx

Thanks Munchkin!

I know what you're saying, but now I'm really scared too. I guess I'm thinking worst case scenario when I picture him NEVER loving our child and regretting the whole thing. I have actually come across men who agreed to fatherhood when they never wanted it, and they turned out to be horrible, neglecting, resentful, uninvolved fathers. This isn't fair to anyone involved...me, him, or our child. I don't want that. I don't want to be a married, single parent. While I agree that seeing our child COULD melt his heart and he would love me and our child, he doesn't believe its possible. We all know about the power of positive thinking, but the power of negative thinking is the same, if not exponentially greater.

I don't want him to ruin his life for me. I don't want him to give up his dreams, or his vision of how he wants his life. I love him and don't want to force him into a life that he doesn't want. And let's face it...once we have a child, its not like we can give it back. So, we still have some major decisions to make.

Fun for the whole family!
Emmie

Emmie, sorry to read that you've been upset and crying.

Anyone have a magic wand? Some pixie dust? Anything else that magically changes a person's mind and/or heart?

The pixie dust is falling right now. Sometimes it cascades down in a huge rush, such as when you fall in love with someone at an instant, or for the first time. But mostly it just sprinkles down imperceptibly over time. You can't see it, you're not aware of it, but it's there.

Pixie dust does not always change feelings towards love. It can also turn feelings away from love.

Time will either change your feelings for him - i.e.- you discover your love changing or vanishing...

...or time will change HIS feelings.

Things don't stay the same. They simply don't. There are a million and one machinations - a zillion and one tiny cogs - all turning independently - all adding up to what you experience.

I hope that Tom decides that he can't really write the script for his life; that he can't run from change - that in effect, change is good. Change IS life.
I hope he can embrace that and have a baby with you.

If he doesn't, one of the little cogs is out of kilter. You two will NOT stay in the exact same state of love. He will watch your feelings for him change - and he will be faced with the CHANGE that he fears... the change that he can't control...

... the change of you walking out of his life.

I have a magic wand…

I’m still learning how to use it, and it is not 100% accurate, but here goes…

its about focusing on the needs, primarily to accept each others needs (often has a transformative effect in itself) and also to help spot other ways of meeting them. Apologies if some of this has been said before.

EMMIEGIRL:

QUOTE
I just don't want to be a 50 year old widow, totally isolated from my family and alone.
NEEDS
Companionship, togetherness, caring, to be sure my needs will be taken care of later.

QUOTES
I want to complete my circle of love
my idea of perfect love is him with a child
NEEDS
Wholeness, acceptance, sameness, fitting in – can’t quite put my finger on this one, I think it has something to do with matching up with society’s life plan? This is coming from an idea someone has given you of the “right” thing to do, and I believe this is the source of the pain.
Please correct me if I’m wrong about this, but
QUOTE I just can't shake the feeling that I am supposed to be a mom.
NEEDS
the need to contribute to life, to give life, to continue life.


EMMIE’S OM:

QUOTES
He doesn't want kids because he wants my undivided attention.
He wants me to be happy with just him
NEEDS
Attention, ease, simplicity, to be sure his needs are taken care of now

QUOTE
one of his issues is zero population growth
NEEDS
Consideration for future generations

QUOTE
He has a lot of fear about bringing a child into the relationship (because of his subideal relationship with his own father, but mainly fear of changing the dynamics of our relationship, i.e., that I would love the child more than I love him).
NEEDS
Stability, love, togetherness, caring

QUOTE
he wishes I needed him like he needs me
NEEDS
Unity of purpose

QUOTE
he is worried that once he "gives in" to this need, then I will come up with another one
NEEDS
Safety


QUOTE
I am tired of not deciding. He is tired of it too.
NEEDS
progress, change

QUOTE
he is willing to completely change his life plan and change his dreams for me.

GREAT! Won’t that meet both of your needs? Is he willing to do it NOW?
Say “YES PLEASE!!” This is real progress, what’s stopping you from grabbing this with both hands? Do you doubt he means it? Ask him if he means it. If he says no, or still says yes but hesitates in taking action to back up that statement, forget he said it, its coming from fear, and we don’t want to go there.


SUMMARY
Needs you are both getting met through this relationship:

Companionship, love, togetherness, caring…

Needs that you are not getting met through this relationship:

Emmie:
to be sure my needs will be taken care of later (I would be wary of taking a decision about children on this basis. There are other solutions)
Self-acceptance, wholeness (through following a life-plan you are told is the best one. I believe this is the crux of your need, but you will need to explore exactly what child-rearing means to you to get a clearer picture. Worth doing anyway, I think.)
To contribute to life (this can be achieved in other ways, like volunteering, working with children, social work)
To give life (the human species will survive, regardless of whether you have children)

OM:
Consideration for future generations (does he recycle? Drive green? Buy organic?)

Attention, ease, simplicity (have you really heard this? Your partner wants a (relatively) easy, simple life. He just isn’t prepared to make the effort of child rearing, and is unlikely to change his mind unless he finds another need that will be met by it. QUOTE "he has been very clear from the beginning that he never wants children." Can you hear this and accept that ease and simplicity are what your partner wants, because that is who he is? Don’t leap to any decisions. Just accept it and see how it feels.)

Safety (would you be happy with one child? or would more be required for you to feel fulfilled? Do not compromise, or you'll be stuck in the same arguement later with children to consider. Then tell him how many, and if he is willing, form an agreement with him that there will be no more.)

RECOMMENDATIONS

1. Explore what is behind this need to complete your circle of love. Keep talking about that until you can identify it, and then communicate it to him. It may be that he may recognise it in himself, and change his mind.
2. Until then, practice acceptance of the needs your partner has identified - ease, simplicity. I know they don't make up for your own need not being met, but you can practice loving him AS IS and that feels pretty good. QUOTE "My feelings for him (being totally, head-over-heels madly in love) have never faded."

I know a lot of what I've said is repeating what has already been said, but i hope it has given a different perspective on it, and can stimulate some clarity in you.

A link for you, with a number of articles on the subject of child-bearing:

http://dir.salon.com/topics/to_breed_or_not_to_breed/index.html

My OM said he isn't worried about not having children of his own, but I get the sense he might like them if the opportunity arose. I'm still in two minds, because for the first time I see a real possibility I could have kids, I feel elated, but at the same time, I'm not sure it's what I really want from my life. I think maybe I could be happy giving to children in some other way.

Does anyone have any other resources on the reasons people have kids?

Hi Emmie,

He doesn't want kids because he wants my undivided attention.

I can't really understand this since the child would be product of your love. He/she would be part of him, part of you. Loving the child is like loving him because the child is part of him, his flesh and blood.

Perhaps he is thinking about getting up at night and changing nappies, saving up for college and all the expenses that come with children. That sounds very unappealing, but everyone who have children tell me that it is worth it!!

I'm not sure if I read your posts properly, but does he have a child already? Does he like children?

I have heard of women leaving their OM because she wants children and the OM wants to settle into retired life. I have also heard of OM having kids at 60+ and very happy.

It doesn't make sense to me to think that children would "ruin" his life. Some children never neglect their parents, in fact when you are old, they are the ones to look after you.

Tell him to think about it as a long term investment... lol...

Good luck Emmie, my heart goes out to you.

Quotes from "We all die alone" by Laura Miller

"What this reader, and plenty of other Americans, feels but scarcely dares to articulate is the fear that when she is old her company will be of no value to anyone except those obligated by blood to share it.

"Having kids is manifestly not a reliable "hedge" against isolation, mostly because the kind of person who has kids to protect him or herself from loneliness tends eventually to drive those children away.

"However, the alternative to stocking our lives with individuals duty-bound to care about us is just too scary. It requires facing, in a forthright and unflinching way, what it will mean for us -- that's me and you, pal -- to get old.

Occasionally, I'll stumble across a book like ________. She's grown into an understanding that's just dawning for me, that no matter which life you choose there will be others unlived -- the married mother fantasizes about living alone, while the solitary soul dreams of family, for example -- and that there simply is no way to cover all the bases, to have every experience, to live every kind life. Everybody has to pick. You can let the possibility of bypassed delights gnaw away at you or you can savor the ones you chose instead. You can't win, technically speaking. But you can't lose, either. "

Emmie...

I don't know if you notice my pattern or not, but I'm checking up on people and seeing if there are any updates. I hope you and Tom are doing well...

Em

Things are still not going well, but we just don't want to end it. Its too hard. He has agreed to consider adoption, as I mentioned before, but he is now putting all kinds of restrictions on the child we can adopt, and that child's mother. Basically, he only wants to adopt an American or Western European (read, white...I don't care) child from an intelligent and responsible young woman (like a college student) who gets pregnant and isn't in a position to care for the child or who doesn't want to. He is essentially trying to control the personality type of the child we adopt, which doesn't exactly work. Also, he doesn;t want to adopt from a county agency because of possible abuse/neglect issues, which leaves private agencies. I did some research, and private agencies are VERY expensive, with total adoption costs ranging from $30,000 to $70,000. Given the prohibitive costs, combined with the fact that there are more couples who want these kinds of babies than there are mothers willing to give them up, there is very little hope Tom's qualifications could be met. Most of the time, the mothers choose who gets to raise their child, and I think Tom would have to be an excellent actor to convince some young woman that he really wants her child.

Which brings us back to square one. Bottom line is, I have to decide. He realizes this, I realize this, but neither one of us wants to face the music.

There's my update.

I don't get it, emmie. If you adopt a child with Tom, won't it be very much like having one together? And is having one of your own something you're willing to give up? I know it would be very hard for you to end the relationship, but maybe what you're going through is just as hard.

Yes Silvermermaid, adopting a child with Tom would be like having one together, and having a biological child is something I am willing to give up, but my point was that Tom is being so restrictive on the kind of child we could adopt, that we have a better chance of getting struck by lightening twice tomorrow in S. Cal than finding the kind of child and biological mother of that child that Tom considers acceptable.

Tom only wants a white child from America. He wants the mother to know who the biological father is (in other words, the biological mother doesn't have more than one partner). He wants the biological mother to be either a college student, an honors student in high school, or a college-educated young professional who is not willing to raise a child. He wants to know the mother and father's complete medical histories and the histories of their families. Women in these categories generally have good access to birth control and know how to use it, so the number of women in these categories who (1) get pregnant in the first place, and (2) decide to give up their children after a full term pregancy are pretty rare.

Essentially, he doesn't want a child. If he has to live with a child, he wants a guarantee that there will be no behavioral issues, etc., which can never be guaranteed. Given that most mothers who put their children up for adoption get to choose from hundreds of desparate couples, I just don't think that Tom would ever be able to convince anyone that we should get their baby.

I'm just losing hope. Its like he's throwing out just enough for me to try to cling onto, but then he back tracks.

blah.

Jeesh, I'm really sorry, emmie. I really wish something would make him come around, or that he'd at least realize how deeply you feel about this and stop throwing crumbs. All my best to you.

I feel for you. I wish I could give you a big hug and let you cry on my shoulder. This is a tough situation and I wouldn't with this on any one. It's hard because there is so much love. Sounds to me like Tom is playing God. The smartest, most respected, and well behaved people cannot guarentee an angel child. Kids feed off of their peers...so the best of children can turn into wild ones once they hit jr. high (that's D's son).

My love and prayers go out to you Emmie!
All the best...
EM

just a personal opinion.......

If he loves you.....his happieness is dependent on yours......
and the idea that you can find happieness by fulfilling only your own desires is nonsense...true happieness comes from sharing...find someone who is willing

50...great point!
But I understand Emmie's situation...it's hard to just up and leave. It's easier said than done. Love you Emmie! Stay strong and keep us updated.

emmiegirl
It is definetly easier said than actually done. Before I got involved seriously with my husband we talked about a family. I knew he wanted a big family and so did I. I loved him more than anythng but, if he sadi no I don't want any children I would have walked away. I love him and he is my life but, my kids are also my life and those are the things that I always wanted more than anything else I have. I am a woman and I feel that if there was only one thing a woman could do I would chose having children.

So, I guess you know where I stand on what you could tell Tom. He is just not into it .
As far as trying to pick what the bilogical mother should be like. I don't even know what to say to that. If my husband said that to me in the same situation I would be dumbfounded. How do you pick the mother of your adopted child. He has you, whom he loves and you are the women he would want to be the biological mother of the child he is willing to adopt. Do you follow? Doesn't make sense.

emmiegirl the only thing I can tell you is don't trap him into having or adopting a child if he doesn't want one. I have too many girlfriends that are single mothers for the same reason.

i have been thinking about this thread a lot but i don't think i have responded yet. i know it must be a wrenching decision whether or not to stay with someone in this situation. i really feel for you, emmie, and i think about you often.

in the back of my mind, it is something i worry about. personally, i am not convinced that i want children of my own, definitely not soon, but maybe someday, i don't know. and my boyfriend says he doesn't anytime soon, but might change his mind in the future. i see kids with their parents and i want to hold them, and i wonder would it would be like to have that bond with and love for someone. it is complicated in a way because he had a vasectomy 5 years ago. so it would be a big decision to reverse that, not to mention very expensive. right now, it doesn't bother me too much because i am scared of being pregnant and having a kid. and i the last thing i want would to be with someone who was pressuring me into having a baby. no way!!

so i guess, what if i am not sure? i worry that i should figure it out for myself before i commit to someone, but what if i never did decide? what if in five years i realize i want that, and the other person doesn't feel that way yet? is it silly to worry about things that haven't even happened yet?

emmie, we haven't met, but i think of you as being such a strong, smart, independent woman. i know that you will make the choices that are right for you in your life. no matter how hard they are, i know you will be okay. thinking of you,

calybo

Cat,

Thank your for your response. I completely understand how you feel, because its exactly how I felt a few years ago too (I'm pretty sure I'm about 5 years older than you are). I too wasn't sure, which is why I allowed myself to get so deeply involved with a man who definitely did NOT want kids. He knew; I didn't, so I just let myself live as if I would never want them. Then all of a sudden, I did. It was almost eerie how one day I was terrified of getting pregnant, and the next time I thought about it, it wasn't scary anymore, and it was actually exciting to think about.

And I guess I can see how people might consider me strong and independent, but I am actually not at all. I am just as vulnerable and scared as the rest of you. Right now, I am scared of so many things, I can't even put them into words, but mainly I am scared of (1) leaving and never feeling about anyone else the way I feel about Tom; or (2) staying with Tom and regretting my decision to not have kids for the rest of my life. Which is more important?

I don't know!!!!

I feel like I'm one of those people who has to decide whether to pull their husband or their child from a burning building. I really cannot fathom how on earth I have tears left to cry, because I feel like I've already filled up a resevoir.

But the hardest part is trying to accept that maybe Tom and I don't love each other as much as I think we do, because neither of us is willing to budge on this issue for the other person.

Sorry. I really don't mean to unload on everyone like this. I typically don't talk about this issue much to my friends because I feel like I've been over it to the point that its annoying.

I guess I need to find a shrink, because if I'm going to leave, I think its going to require some fairly substantial medication. As I said, I'm just not strong enough to face it alone.

But the hardest part is trying to accept that maybe Tom and I don't love each other as much as I think we do, because neither of us is willing to budge on this issue for the other person.

This is the part that saddens me the most...it hold the most truth. You know what's right for you, and if this is it...then so be it. It might be time to come to terms with what you already know

EM

p.s. please don't be sorry for venting or unloading here...that's what we are here for.

Emmiegirl

I don't think that you a Tom don't love each other it's just that you both want different things and at least he was honest enough to tell you that you should move on if you really want children.

Emmiegirl

I don't think that you a Tom don't love each other, it's just that you both want different things and at least he was honest enough to tell you that .You should move on if you really want children.
Personally, I think that would be the right thing to do. I know I know it's alot easier said then done. Make a decision quickly or in a timely manner before it gets harder to say goodbye. Each day you stay with Tom it gets harder and harder to say goodbye.

The other thing I wanted to say is, if your heart tells you that you want to have a child then do it. Find the right man and have a child. If you decide not to have a child becuase Tom doesn't want to have one it is something you may regret for the rest of your life.

In my previous post I mentioned that I love having children and I believe it is the most wonderfult thing in the world and every woman should have the right to experience this amazing feeling if they choose. If you really truly want a child don't give that right up for a man who would not welcome the child whether the child be born or adopted.
It doesn't make Tom a bad man it just isn't what he wants in his life and he was man enough to tell you that.
Follow your heart. Good Luck!

I am confused here...... Can you not have children? It he is considering adoption then what is the difference?? Either way they will be your child which you would love to no end right? or amI way off the mark here????

emmiegirl,
does the girl you described as his best choice of mother for your (possible future) adopted child...sound anything like YOU? (apart from the wanting an abortion bit)

just a thought.

sorry adoption not abortion! yikes!

Yes, as far as I know, I am fully capable of having a biological child, and so is Tom. And yes, an adopted child would be loved just as much as a biological child. But again, with the restrictions Tom has put on an adoption, adoption is essentially about 99% impossible.

And Lintilla, yes, Tom's ideal for the biological mother sounds EXACTLY like me!!!!!

Thanks guys. You are all so great. I really do appreciate all of your insight, advice, and support.

Emmie

This is absolutely heart wrenching. I would love to give you a *hug*. I wish there was a magic wand for you because my heart truly aches for you emmie. I have kids 2 from my marriage and Dave and I just had a baby together in July. The baby was an oops. He didn't want kids he said he was to old and for that matter I really didn't need another child either. As I said in a previous post he was no at all happy and he told me there were options and as much as I love him I told him this baby is not an option but you are. I went away for two weeks when I came back he cried and said I don't want to be an option. The day he held his son in his arms at the hospital he cried. He doesn't regret the baby for a minute now. There is nothing I can say to fix this for you and dammit I wish I could. I can send you a pic of my OM gray hair and all holding his precious newborn son if that would help you convince your OM?

Thanks Wings.

I wish my story would have come out like yours. But I don't think I'm going to get there. He lost me over this child issue. For me to go back, he would have to look at me and tell me that he loves me so much and doesn't want to live his life without me and thinks that a child would bring joy into our lives and relationship. I just cannot force him into a situation he does not want to be in, even if I think he will see his child and fall in love. Because, what if he doesn't??? I can't do that to him, to our child, or to me.

So, I'm stuck.
Thank you for your sentiments though. It is nice to know that you folks don't think I'm crazy!

:)
Emmie

Thea,
Your ability to be candid and honest is so warming. Thank you for coming into my life. Please hang around.

Thanks, Katie. Geez, my period must be due because your post to me has me a little choked up....

Regardless of anything else, I have met some great people on this board. There are those who haven't been quite so great (very, very few) but that's okay, too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Thea

The only moment you have is the present one. The past is gone and nobody is guaranteed a tomorrow. The only way to be happy is to live your life in the PRESENT - do what makes you happy NOW, you're wasting precious time speculating, worrying, and angonizing over tomorrow. From a personal perspective, I wasted YEARS agonizing over whether or not I should be with my OM (26 yrs my senior), what my family would think, what would happen, etc., etc., etc. Once I finally "got off the pot" and realized that I loved him IN MY PRESENT, I changed my life, married him and am living happily ever after. Yes, I still fear what tomorrow may bring but, irrespective of what it is, I go to bed every night happy knowing that I am living each day, my present, to the fullest.

Now when I look back at all my "fears about the future" that kept me apart from my OM, it occurs to me that my life has turned out NOTHING like I thought/speculated/imagined it would. The only moment you have is the PRESENT, live it to the fullest for you may not even be here tomorrow.

Good luck.

Sorry it is so much reading, but here you go.

Well, either way I guess...

This thread sure helped me. Didn't make things any easier, but hearing objective opinions helped me work through things. I hope it helps her too.

I have the same situation. I have been with him for 8 years and married for the past 2 years. I love him and I can't picture myself with anyone else and in the 8 years I have been with him I have never been interested in anyone else. He told me previously that he wanted kids but now he is saying that he doesn't want kids and never did. He said that when he was 20 he didn't want kids but he thought that this would change. Now he is 26 and he still doesn't want kids and he doesn't think that this will ever change. He said that when he imagines his life with kids he imagines crying and sleepless nights, being tired all the time, not having any time for himself. He thinks life with kids will be miserable. When I see him around children I can tell that he doesn't care for them much but I always hoped that he would be different with his own kids. I don't know what to do. I am heartbroken and lost. He said that he wants me to be happy and that he thinks that I will be sad and lonely if I don't have kids. He agrees with me that I should leave him if I want to have kids. I don't know how to leave him. I have been with him for so long that I don't know how to live without him. We live in San Fransico and my whole family is on the east coast. If I leave him I will have to leave and go back to the east coat and leave my job, my life, sell our house, go through a divorce and start all over again. Right now I hate him for doing this to me and I wish I never met him.

Emmie - first - my daughter's name is Emilie and she's called Emmie :)

Second, I just want to thank you for your post. I'm sorry you are struggling, but it's helped to know that it isn't just the OW/YM relationships that struggle with the issue of children. On our "side" it's often a matter of the woman no longer being able to have a child. The YM I'm with now wants kids someday. I cannot have them anymore, nor would I want to. Surrogacy and adoption are expensive. So, this is just one of the many issues we struggle with in age gap relationships, on both "sides" of the board. I wish you the best.

Theory, sweet heart, you're miserable, so how good can this relationship be? You certainly don't want to force this man into having children. He would eventually come to resent both you and the children. Don't stay because leaving is hard to do. I know from experience that isn't a good reason to stay. You have to decide, but from the outside it looks as if you'll hurt for a while if you leave this man, but you'll hurt forever if you stay with him and give up having children. I also wish you the best . . .

Theory...

wanting children isn't a small Issue.... and I know it's hard here.. but you need to find out if you can live without children.... if you can then Ok then their shouldn't be an issue... but from what I see you do... and I don't think that this relationship will work... If you stay with him you'll just resent him later and will regret this when you get older.. sometimes its hard to say goodbye at first but time DOES heal wounds!!!

maybe you should speak to a therapist about this.. I know I have talked to one not about this but I know it helped me greatly!! At least you will have someone to have an open mind and not a biased view ont his!