Here's the awful latest...

you guys dont have to reply to this..I just need to vent and let out and just tell it how it is to actually beleive that it is all happening...

I just got off the phone with my sister she called to ask what I had decided to do. She basically told me that its the wrong decision and that if I decide to go ahead with this, I dont tell a soul and I let my family believe that im a **** who's been disowned. I said I didnt want to go out like that and that Im NOT a ****, im simply a girl who fell in love with someone and who wants to be with somebody wholeheartedly, with someone that wants to be with *me* wholehartedly. She called him "fuckface" and said that he doesnt want that, he just wants to show off his trophy peice of young meat and im marrying an infidel that wont give a shit if I wear what I want, or drink alcohol etc. And that Ill be living my free beautiful life while my mother has a heart attack and my father sinks into depression, and my grandparents die slowly and painfully. She called me selfish and said that I have to be a completely dense and heartless ***** to do this. She went on to say that if I did this and told my parents that my father would kill me. And she said it seriously she repeated it over and over, "wake up, im not kidding. He will go after you and kill you because he'll go completely crazy. Is that what you want?"
I asked her WTF does she want me to do, go home and beg for forgiveness and forget about him? I wouldnt do that and if I went home, ill just marry the next guy that came along that everybody approved of just to make everyone happy and she said, well do that. I told her, but that would make ME unhappy, I dont want that - and she said, well what do you want, your being unhappy or the whole family being unhappy and dying? I told her to stop melodramatising everything and she said she wasnt, and she isnt - I was scared this is the reaction i would get. She said he's doing this just to make me happy, he doesnt have it in his heart to convert, or to want to be with me and that if he had it entirely his way that he would live with me without getting married, live in sin etc etc because he's a low life bastard.

My head is going to explode, it really is. I dont know if I can handle anything anymore. I think I just want to curl up and disappear. Its not a joke its real and im fucking scared. I think ive almost totally lost my belief in love conquering all and all that bullshit. I seriously feel like disappearing..

And there's more!!

Goooody!

SMS received two fucking seconds ago from Aunt:

"PLS MEET ME TOMORROW. YOUR MUM IS NEARLY FINISHED SHE'S SUFFERING BY THE MINUTE"

I cant take this anymore.

Hmmm, well if it's any consolation, you're not the only person in the world who thinks living a free, independent life is a healthy thing. There are several BILLION people on your side and 99.9% of those living in Australia are with you as well.

I'm wondering now, how on earth did you manage to grow up so well adjusted and lateral thinking amongst all that heavy duty influence? How did you do that? That's a MIRACLE.

Because therein lies the clue that you are, in fact, different to them - and following your path will take you in a fundamentally different direction. It's probably meant to be. It HAS to be meant to be because I just can't see how you could be so different to them. Sure you weren't found in the cabbage patch out the back? :)

Anyway. You're different. Different to them but the same as billions of other people.

One thing I've learnt in life is that those that play the massive histrionics card, the manipulative card, the guilt card, have to - by nature - up the ante progressively as their doctrine does not get through.

Thus, inevitably (invitably) (that's an in-joke) - you will be told that you'll be killed because that's the biggest and last card they can play! Actually, if they killed someone you really loved... that would probably be bigger and more insidious.

For instance, being single, I could stand up for anything quite happily and face a death threat, but if I had a wife and child and someone threatened them over a stance of mine, I would be put under distinctly different pressure. (So stand by for that one. When they hear of your love they'll switch and say they'll kill him!!!)

Anyway, what I'm saying here Munchkin, is that in my experience, all that CRAP about them dying or them killing you or them killing anyone is exactly that - CRAPOLA.

It's meant to scare you - it's meant to make you cave - it's the only card they've got left and it's insidious, selfish and ultimately abusive. Er, ultimately murderous! Actually, ultimately a SCAM!

I can tell you right now, I would have ZERO hesitation in calling my family on this and walking into the sunset, if that's the way I was treated. Zero hesitation. I could do without their "love" if that was the sort of love they had to give. 999,999 out of a million of these sorts of threats are gutless-based and the threateners would fold like a pack of cards if the heat was applied to them.

It's a totally cowardly, selfish, gutless form of abuse and intimidation and if they want to become murderers and spend their lives in prison for killing their own daughter or they want to clutch at their hearts and drop dead, I say GO FOR IT. Be my guest. Let me personally lock you in the prison or push you down the stairs.

In the end, this is a far greater issue than simply an age gap relationship tantrum. The tentacles here stretch into the very fabric of your future life and the ideals you cherish.

B or no B, you will decide eventually what ideals you value and whether you have the vision and strength to live by them. It's a choice many fine people have faced and made throughout history - and it's choices like yours which others have made which have helped so many people live in FREEDOM.

I don't know if being with B is necessary, but it's definitely necessary to get AWAY from your family.

I guess I'm an infidel, in fact a libertine, but if anyone in my family even hinted at KILLING me, I would never look back. What's with parents who think their kids owe them their lives? I mean, technically we would not exist without the, um, efforts of our parents, BUT.....major BUT.....we did not ask to be born at all, especially not unto them, and since we are not CLONES of our parents, but rather genetic pieces, we ought not to be asked to live our lives as THEY want. We may be indebted to them for our physical bodies- but not our souls. Souls do not come from parents, but rather something much higher. They do not belong to anyone but themselves, and are in fact the only thing one can ever "have" for herself. So according to your parents' vein of logic, if one were born into a family of serial killers, the right thing to do would be to become a serial killer also? Because the child would 'owe' it to them? Um, probably not advisable, and if this three-ring circus of drama, despair and destruction (and even death!) is what they're using to lure you back, please RUN. Wow do people use some strange tactics- as if you could ever love them for making you do something you don't want to, for their own happiness! How can you love people so selfish? That is what I ask myself about my own family. I could not return to the fold in obedience and ever look at them with genuine love and respect again. Methinks neither could you. Go your own way- if they need to own you, then they don't love you. :(

I agree with previous posters, Munchkin. You are an adult and should live your life as you choose, regardless of what happens with B.

This universe that has crated us all loves you too. Even your parents love you, in their own way. H-O-W-E-V-E-R....

(a) I wholeheartedly agreed with my purple, peppy & purehearted dinosaur pal.

(b) Go up to you parents, give them a big hug and shout WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY.... or

(c) Stay the hell away from your parents. I just read an article where women who live in England but whose parents are those of a certain cultural/religious background have been sending out people to, in fact, KILL their daughters because they dared to marry someone they weren't "promised" to.

(d) The next time one of your busy-body relatives call, tell them "Hey...look, she won't die [insert diety - God, Allah, Vishnu, Ja...whatever] will take care of her, since she follows all of the rules, etc. etc."

Normally, I say take the moral high road and offer forgiveness. But your relatives responses anger me to boiling. It appears to me that they live in a country (Australia) that allows religious freedom (correct me if I'm wrong, Spunk). . .so they are "free" to practice what they choose. Yet, when you seek "freedom", they foam at the mouth and tell you that the apocalypse & your family's "good name" rest on your decision.

I admire those with religious conviction. It's a wonderful thing to have faith. But what I do not understand is groups that twist and turn "faith" into control issues. I've seen Christians do it by the ton. As far back as the Myans, it was "CONVERT TO CHRIST OR DIIIIEEEE!!!" Ahem. That is *not* Christian-like behavior. And, in a more modern sense, I see "Christians" nixing friends or neighbors or not marrying the people they want to marry because....well, you don't fit the mold for our religion, which, by the way has been translated over thousands of years and usually BY MEN. (No offense, guys....)

You seem like a sharp, well adjusted woman. No matter if you are wearing a friggin burka and canvas shoes or a Max Azaria mini and a pair of Blahniks, honey, you are who you are and I think you have done an amazing job of being well rounded.

Make it clear. . .make if VERY clear, that if your family "disowns" you because you are with a filthy infidel that is THEIR decision. Do NOT allow them to shoulder their histrionics on you. Make sure that THEY know that you love them, but if they are willing to disown you because of this, then they don't love you as half as much as you love them.

Raising my glass to you Munchie! (And if you need help, call Spunk!! LOL!)

Happy

I'm with Spunkasaurus 100%. Look at my tagline and read it a few times: love means puttting somebody else's interests above your own. If your family is talking about killing you because you don't live your life their way, then they obviously a) don't understand that or b) don't really love you. Either case is truly sad, but IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT. It's their shortcoming.

Like he said, I'd have ZERO hesitation in calling their bluff. I think that they really do love you (the intellectual part of me understands that not all families love each other, but the rest of me still has trouble believing that), and that it's a 100% empty threat. If it's not, if it's a real and true threat, then that is one situation you need to get the hell out of ASAP.

Dear Munchie:

I just wanted to add my perspective and I hope it helps.

The others are absolutely right about the manipulations. This is not love, it is a desperate attempt to enforce conformity.

No one is going to die because you fell in love.

Your parents chose to live in the western world. One of the features of the western world is religious freedom. Religious freedom includes the right to not be religious. Equal rights is also deeply rooted in the western world. One must ask why they live in Australia if they want to have total control over their adult children?

I have had the pleasure of doing business in Turkey and while I was there, my associates and I were very careful not to offend muslims. It was simple common courtesy.

I am not suggesting that you renounce your faith, but you need to get away from these nuts.

I suggest that you call the authorities and report the threats. If I were to make such threats here in California, I would find myself in front of a judge before I could blink.

Good luck to you Munchie

G

Originally posted by GrayFox
I suggest that you call the authorities and report the threats.

This is a spectacularly wonderful piece of advice. I'm not sure about Australian law, but here in the States, there's only so much the authorities can do in the case of threats. HOWEVER, reporting it establishes a pattern, which can make things much easier for you if they ever try to follow through on anything - it gives you a report to point to and say, "look, I'm really not making this up, and it's not a spur of the moment thing - these people are really trying to get me." As a follow up, I would report it EVERY SINGLE TIME they make such threats. Again, it goes toward establishing a pattern - with the added benefit that after repeated threats, it's usually easier for the authorities to actually do something about it.

Munchi!

Come to San Diego so I can give you a Big Big BIG hug! My heart aches for you. I am so sorry to hear all they hullaballoo! As if it couldn't get worse, more s-h-i-t piles on :mad: grrrr

Well the good people of this site have found it (yet again) in their hearts to give the best possible advice. Now the only advice I can offer is to READ THEM AGAIN! Make sure you do something about what is happening here.


My love and thoughts are with you!
~EM

Hi Again Munchie

I second Em's request.

If you come to San Diego for a hug, I will drive down there and make it a GROUP HUG.

G

Munchkin,

I just did some reading about your faith. Honestly to me it seems VERY overboard! But then again my faith (christianity) has almost the same type of expectations about marriage. At least about the wife performing wifely duties catering to her man (all that other crap that just went away long long ago)

I mean geesh our wedding vows don't say .....love honor and 'OBEY' anymore. Because times do change and people now 'RESPECT' each other! Surely your religion has made some moves towards the modern times we live in?

What I read seemed way too cut and dried for me!
Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages. There are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter into an inter-faith marriage.

Then it goes on to say its perfectly fine for a muslim MAN to marry outside the religion?? (yes in certain curcumstances) Sorry....but thats NOT the religion for me if whats good for the goose is not good for the gander!

http://www.islam101.com/rasool/islamiat/marriage/intermarriage.htm
For anybody that wants to read on this.

Don

That's some pretty heavy stuff man.

First of all *hugs* to all of you for your concern and your advice I really really appreciate it.

I agree with everything that you are all saying. I really do. I dont beleive *I* did anything wrong to my parents and my extended family, but unforunately their perspectives beg to differ.

I was thinking to myself last night - I just wish that they could open their eyes and just STOP with the beat their hearts till they die act. I didnt commit murder, I didnt renounce my faith, I didnt deal illegal drugs etc. Im still the same daughter they knew and raised, and I have applied all their teachings and morals in my life and have found someone I want to be with.

Last night, I nearly got into a physical punch up with one of my girlfriends. Someone who's met and loves B, someone who's been through this with me from the beginning and someone who damn well knows how bad ive been feeling for my family and what they are going through. She *knows* I dont want to hurt them, but I guess she cant accept that I refuse to let go of my values and beliefs and just step down. In fact, in this case and being the kind of person that I am, it makes me want to dig my heals in harder and say "Nope. Not backing down, you can scream and shout all you want and act like a total lunatic and you can even threaten to kill me, but im just gonna stand here and wait for your to finish your temper tantrum and open your eyes even if it costs me my life."
In any case, she had received a call from my aunt (the one that sent the sms) and she had cried and weeped and apparently nearly had herself a car accident while she was on the phone with her. Some background on my aunt? 37, never married, lives at home, successful clothes designer and has practically and honestly brought me up. Took me everywhere as a child, I refused to even sleep without her some nights. She was a tiny size 6 all her life, until her sister (and best friend) died 3 years ago - she has fallen into a deep deep depression and I dont think will ever get over it and has since put on a lot of weight and practically cries herself to sleep everynight. I love her so much. She hasnt deserved all that she's been through, she's the most emotionally charged piscean their ever was. Anyway, I just needed to paint the picture.

Sue (my friend) started to tell me the story of what was said between them, and then stated the following :"You know, Ra, it made me realise something: How much they all love you. How could you do this to your family? Why would you do this?", all the while looking at me with an expression of dumb, suspicious inquisitiveness, like as though she was asking "Why do you think the weather is so hot when quite clearly its Winter?". And it was enough to make me completely boil, how dare she say that? As if I havent sat here night after night in this thing and tortured myself with the guilt of putting my family through this, all the while trying to remain sane and focused and down to earth. So I looked at her and said "Sue, shut the **** up". Well that was enough to start her engine rolling, she got up and began screaming and yelling, pushing me and going ape shit. I picked up my things calmly and tried to leave and it made her all the more livid and wild. i tried to leave, and she pushed me a few times, I told her to leave me alone and get out of my way and she threatened to go straight to my parents house if I left - I told her to be my guest, they already *know* in case she hadnt noticed. I finally got out, jumped in my car and sped off. I drove and drove and then I parked near the harbour bridge and just fell asleep in my car, before waking up and checking into a hotel.

I needed some time just by myself. I thought about things alot the whole night. I spoke to B and told him he didnt have to come here, that Im throwing my hands up in the air, that Im not wanting to hurt anybody and that our love had far too many negative consequences. I went on about not wanting him to be dragged down into the quagmire with me, that he should just get on with his life and do all the things he needs to do right now and that I would be in his way if I was in it, im not a blessing in his life. He disagreed with everything I said and refused to let it go. He wants to keep going. God, I do too. But im not sure I have the energy, the drive, and the heart to hurt a damn soul. I dont, honest I just dont. I wouldnt be able to live with myself. Last night I just couldnt see how this is going to work, unless somehow a miracle happens and my family perhaps calms the **** down and tries to reason properly. About a snowballs chance in hell methinks.

At this stage, I really dont know whats going to happen and at this stage I could care less. I just want to breath in and out and let time decide what happens. Really, im not dealing with rational people here, though I do love them dearly.

Im not sure if the threats are empty, but they havent been made directly at me as such, they came from my sister more in the form of a warning of impending consequence should I go through with it....so, nah, the thought of bringing the authorities into this doesnt really sit well here, although I *am* a little scared. My dad is a good dad, I dont want to talk him down - he has never denied us a damn thing, especially when we were younger. There's just a fault between my father and I, and alot of it has to do with his violent streak and alot of verbal abuse I suffered from him as a teenager. It came to a point, and I shut him off completely and just stopped loving him so it wouldnt hurt as bad the next time the bomb went off. As you can imagine, this caused a great deal of resentment from him, resenting me for not respecting him as much as I could have, not sitting down with him and having a decent conversation, not spending much time with him and of course, now the biggie, betraying his trust and screwing around with a man older than he is. I dont like the way that they are behaving, but at the same time, how the hell can I not expect it? NOW I realise how much I do love him, and I feel very sorry for him. But I dont want to run back, Im sorry i lied to them, yes, but Im not sorry for what I did because I dont beleive that I sinned. I beleive that God is all loving, all accepting and I *do* beleive that God had a hand in leading me to B in the first place.

Anyway, the conversation with B last night concluded at he loving me very much, me not being in his way in any way at all, he wanting to stay together and not break up because of this, he wanting to do whatever it is possible to help me through this (although now, following all of this, the idea of the marriage is not going to help, so scratch that idea - no can come anymore) and us both trying to find a way to rationalise and stay together because we love each other and were not doing anything wrong.

He is a really beautiful man, my B. Despite freaking out, can you blame him? I certainly cant. He's a typical engineer that needs to look at every angle of a situation and understand it entirely before making a well thought out, sensible and rational decision. I love that about him...only its unfortunate in our case that were not dealing with people that want to compromise or rationalise.

Right. Well thats whats cooking in my heads kitchen. Im so confused about what to do. Im looking for high apartment, in a security building to move into because I just want to be alone.

Sigh - a song comes to mind by Radiohead, "No Surprises"....

"A heart that’s full up like a landfill,
A job that slowly kills you,
Bruises that won’t heal
You were so tired, happy,
Bring down the government,
They don’t, they don’t speak for her
I’ll take the quiet life, a handshake of carbon monoxide
No alarms and no surprises, silence...."

Biggest hugs to you all
- Your pathetic munchkin

*wishing she was in Kansas, not Oz*

p.s Damn those hug invitations sound sooo good, thanks guys

:(

You've called yourself "pathetic" a few times and I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR IT AGAIN!

UNDERSTAND!?

;)

I think everyone here supports you - we're on your side, do not allow yourself to slip into self-pity. God knows we had enough of that with Happy4Me on the beach with the razor blades...

... which MIGHT explain why she REFUSES to give us an update. Because she realizes what a Grade A
D R A M A Q U E E N she is!!!!

http://images.animfactory.com/animations/creatures/miscellaneous/grim_reaper_slashing_md_wht.gif

But ohhhhhh no, we don't get an update. She's "too busy".

Yeah, right. There's a a thread on Wiccans and Pagans and she responds with a freakin THESIS!!!

But no, she's way too "exhausted" and "busy" to tell all her dear friends how she's doing. Far too exhausted to respond to Fort Rock with ANYTHING UNDER 1 MILLION WORDS THAT IS!!!

:)

Sorry Munchie, back to you.

I think everyone's given great advice. I must admit that one thing that annoys me with this lay it on the "infidel" CRAP is that they choose to live in Australia, right? Australia, with it's Starbucks just down the road and it's alliance with the U.S. happens to VALUE a certain way of life. I presume it's the awful, evil, "infidel" way of life?

So I always wonder what exactly your family is doing living here? Why aren't they on the plane back to wherever it is they consider paradise?

Okay, that's just a private rant. I don't want to pick on your family, I really don't know them.

The bottom line is, we're all on your side and it's GREAT that B is sticking up for you as well.

:)

Spunk:

You toooo funny and I just laughed, which is a good thing. Oh goody - I remember that! LAUGHING - weeeeeeeeee...

Next - Happy, why you no update us?? Spunk turned his caps lock on because you and me are in trouble: Me for patheticising myself and you for not updating us.
And you know how much that scares me, its yelling and I get scared of yelling!

*puts hands over ears*
*waits for update*

In the meantime...

Im off to meet my aunt this afternoon, in about an hour. Im preparing myself for the grand inquisition. I feel like im on trial for murder, or ive been manipulated by a serial killer or rapist or same.
So fucking over this, so damn near fucking crazy because of all of this. Everything I say makes me sound like a naiive stupid clueless child no matter what.
Turn on the waterworks and the shakespearian drama and brace yourself kiddo......

MunchKIN! Even if you are met with the Inquisition, I don't think you should give up NOW! I mean, here it looks like you've scared your family half-crazy, you've shaken up your man (who has made his choice to stand with you) and now you want to say, "Sorry guys, false alarm." ? Hey- you're talking to your family. Your guy wants to stick by you. You may feel like you're the last palm tree standing in a hurricane- but you're weathering the storm right now, and not falling over. Just remember how bad this feels- because this is the worst of it, the initial shock. Things will get better, yeah the stress will pressure-cook you to a shrivelled turkey, but it can't always keep up the intensity it has now. Just take it day by day. You will emerge a warrior, but you never know the strength you have til it's tested. Some minutes feel like days, and the pain like knives, and the stress like static on the brain. But you're not gonna die. Your ma's not gonna die. Everything will get better, even if it's so slowly you don't notice right away. I just have to say don't give up, I know you aren't really that type anyway, so don't get too discouraged. :)

Munchkin - good luck with your aunt! All of us here are hoping and praying that things go well!

I agree with everything everyone has said. The only advice I can offer you, and I am offering it from the deepest part of my heart (with a side of experience)...you need to live your own life. You know what, despite what they say, your parents will love you forever. Unconditionally. They will learn to accept whatever decision you make, because that is what parents do. Live your life without regrets. You never want to have to yourself, "What if?"

I am sure it will all work out....just keep your head up!

It's scary, and the choices are hard....but we all want you to make the best choices for you...you know what I mean?