Parenting 101

Hi, gang!

Polly and Trish got me to thinking about different styles
of parenting, and the relationships between parents
and their adolescent kids....

So I thought input from Moms would be nice, as well as
input from all thoughtful, intelligent adults who want to
be parents someday, or at least help teens.

My big beef with a lot of American-style parenting,
is the idea that adolescents are still innocent children.

I totally disagree.

Polly described how a 12-year-old friend of her kids has
the figure of an 18-year-old, and catches all kinds of
grief for it, especially from men out on the street who
like to "leer." You can imagine the hell this poor thing
has to go through at school.

So, the question to the forum is:

If you were the Mom (or Dad) how would you cope with
a traumatized depressed adolescent who walks around
with her arms crossed over her bust, ashamed or
embarrassed of looking like a mature woman?

Personally, I think it's a disaster to insist to any young
person that he/she is a "child" when they don't look it,
and the outside world is acting like they're NOT a child.

Because I had a fairly miserable adolescence, I feel very
sensitive to teenagers' plight. Both my wife and I promised
ourselves that when we had kids, we wouldn't act the way
our parents did.

The last thing troubled teens need is to have adults issue a trivial "standard adult blowoff response" like:

"Oh, honey, you look fine. Everything will be okay."
"Don't worry; you'll grow into it."
"Baby, you're beautiful, just ignore them." :mad:

This kind of talk is what I call a whole lot of nothing. It's
useless.

If you go to a school where kids are snapping your bra,
pointing and laughing at you, making rude sexual remarks,
etc., life can be pretty miserable. Basically other kids
are mocking you and harassing you on a daily basis for
your adult physical characteristics. How the hell are
you supposed to get your GPA together and get ready
for college under those circumstances?

Personally, I would try to tell a very busty 12-year-old
daughter that "You are starting to grow into an adult
now. It is nothing to be ashamed of..." and go from
there.

But not all parents will agree with this approach, so once
again:

If you were the Mom (or Dad) how would you cope with
a traumatized, depressed adolescent who walks around
with her arms crossed over her bust, acting ashamed or
embarrassed of looking like a mature woman?

Looking forward to smart responses from thoughtful,
sensitive adults. :)

Well you can't tell them too wear cloths that aren't in Style, but......
Have you seen the tight t-shirts that come above the belly the girls are wearing in school, they make even itty bittys look big.

I guess as a mom I would want my daughter, to choose her cloths wisely.

Cloths are a big thing, but if chosen wisely and conservative, even big titties can look smaller.
The other girls will catch up to her soon.
But its up to good parents like Polly to educated their children.
Kudos to Polly for mentioning to her son the importance of respect for the girl!!

Sometimes I think you're just trying to be OPPOSITIONAL to me, Harrison!!! :D

Actually though, you are from South Africa, right? So maybe your culture is a little different than the American culture. Now, I know in the other thread, you said that our culture was a "Heinz 57" mix of people, and that's true, but Anglo-Saxons founded it, and we still adhere primarily to that culture, which I'm comfortable with and which I would like to see remain as the dominant culture of the U.S.A. Now, don't get me wrong. This IN NO WAY makes me prejudice. If I went to live in Africa, I would adhere to the language and culture of the country I chose to live in. I would accept it as my new way of life, rather than try to "Americanize" that country. If that country saw 12-year-old girls as potential wives and mothers, I wouldn't do a thing to stop it. That's their belief, that's their culture, and they have a right to run it any way they like, with no help from me.

This is AMERICA! I think a lot of the reason that people from all over the world come here is for our respectively conservative culture which shelters children until a later age. So what if a busty 12-year-old masturbates??? I masturbated when I was five! Should I have been leered at by men sexually as a result??? I've been an American all my life, as were my parents, and their parents. I am a direct decendent of Miles Standish, who sailed one of the first three boats full of Pilgrims to this Promised Land. My people were farmers, laymen and ministers. My dad was a minister. We never owned slaves, we lived in primarily Connecticut and Pennsylvania, and we were honest folk, an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. I was taught all my life, that people should be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, nor their religion, nor their social status. Keeping that in mind (and all the rest of the history I have given you) it has also been taught to me not only by my parents but by the schools I attended, that children (under the age of 18) have the right to a childhood. They have the right to their innocence, their naivete, and the right to just be themselves, without leering, or sexual molestation, or exploitation. That's what my culture taught me. I support that, and instill it in my own children. Of course I don't tell Whitney she should be ashamed of her body, or say anything to suggest that. Instead, I support her wish to be respected as a kid, and not leered at or exploited because she's too fragile to fight back! I protect her, because she DESERVES, in MY culture, to be a carefree kid for at least six more years, and I'm not going to let ANYONE take that American privilege from her!

Thanks, Snow, for the compliment. :)

Very well said Polly!
Could not say it better myself
Cheers
Adri

Originally posted by Harrison


Both my wife and I promised
ourselves that when we had kids, we wouldn't act the way
our parents did.



Spit in one hand wish in the other, see which one fills up first....

This is a HUUUUGGEEEEE pet peeve of mine!! People who don't have kids that say...... "My kids would never.." or " I will never be like my parents"
You have no idea in the world until you have them......
and guess what??? Yep you will somehow become a little mini-me of your parents in some way!!! ~SHOCKER!!!!!!!

PS this ain't knocking my friends and good people here or there w who have no children AT ALL, it's just to people who say " I would............blah blah blah........
Have 'em than tell us how easy it is!!!!:eek:

Its like giving someone advice on how to drive a car when you have never driven one yourself!!;)

I agree with this one too:p
First have your kids then we can talk!!
Adri

Actually though, you are from South Africa, right?

Um, wrong....but that's okay.

So maybe your culture is a little different than the American culture. Now, I know in the other thread, you said that our culture was a "Heinz 57" mix of people, and that's true, but Anglo-Saxons founded it, and we still adhere primarily to that culture, which I'm comfortable with and which I would like to see remain as the dominant culture of the U.S.A....

I think you're off on the wrong track here, hon. Plenty
of Anglo-Saxon descended communities have very
different attitudes about adolescent maturity. Just
to cite one example, the age of consent in South
Carolina (one of the original 13 colonies) today is 16,
but it was only recently revised as such. A few years
ago, it was 14, I believe. I think in Alabama, you can
still get married at 14 with parental consent.

I do know that the singer, Loretta Lynn (not usually
thought of as an ethnic minority) was married off at 13
with her parent's consent. Most of the
Appalachian Kentucky/W.Virginia area's European
settlers were either Scotch-Irish or English or both.
That didn't stop early teen marriages, so I don't think
the "Anglo-Saxons founded it" argument will work very
well.

Anyway, I don't think 12-year-olds should be
wives and mothers, and I wouldn't allow any child of
mine to marry or even date that young!!! That wasn't
even the issue, even though you got all worked up
about it. :D LOL

The issue I was concerned with is: "Is it fair to a young
adult with a grown woman's body to be treated as a
'naive child' by her guardians?

I see it as a "control issue." Some parents really want
their "darling little baby" to stay that way, even into
their teens. They are the same ones who are shocked
beyond belief when their 15-year-old "angel" turns up
pregnant. "Oh my God, how could Jenny do such a thing??"

Well, "Duh!":rolleyes:

Any educated person could've told the parents to watch
out for that, and to maybe counsel the daughter,
or at least get her birth control if she runs with a fast
crowd. But if you're a parent who's stuck on seeing your
"angel" as an innocent child, you're liable to get the shock
of your life!!! :eek:

I guess it all depends on what standards you have for your
kids and where you want them to go in life.

I do like SnowPrincess's idea about advising young women
to dress modestly. That's very sensible, and might help.
In my house, tight pants would also be out!!!

In addition to that, I'd give her a solid lecture on the
birds and the bees, if she hasn't gotten it already.
Driving lessons are good too; most young adults like
learning to drive. It's a positive "mature" skill to pick
up.


Glad you responded, even if you did kinda go psycho on
me! :p :D

This is a HUUUUGGEEEEE pet peeve of mine!! People who don't have kids that say...... "My kids would never.." or " I will never be like my parents"
You have no idea in the world until you have them......
and guess what??? Yep you will somehow become a little mini-me of your parents in some way!!! ~SHOCKER!!!!!!!

LOL Okay, Snowy, we'll see, won't we?

I still think intelligent people can plan ahead. I'm
already aiming for a higher level of education than my
Dad ever had, so I should be a smarter parent, right?

(Don't answer that! ;))

I'll get to Harrison's question in a moment, but I just want to flash back to when "I" was 17.

Truthfully, I wanted guys to leer at me. I loved it. I was very concerned with how sexually desirable I was to men, and it made me happy when they made comments or whistled.

Although I was still a virgin (I lost my virginity shortly after my 18th birthday),
I had engaged in make out sessions all the way up to 3rd base since I was
15 1/2, several with guys quite a few years older than me. Ducked out to nightclubs and bars etc.....

And trust me, my parents didn't have a clue .......

I was very much average amongst my peers in 1979-1982, in the boroughs of New York.

And nowadays, my boyfriend, who is far squarer and more responsible than I was at his age, lost his virginity at 15, with a girl who was 16, and it was not her first time.

So while all of you may have naive daughters ..... I wouldn't exactly jump to the conclusion that they're all as innocent as they would have you believe. Adolescence is, and is supposed to be, a time of experimentation and a time of establishing a life seperately from that of your family. That means, good parents or bad, you just DON'T tell them everything.

If I had a daughter suffering as Harrison describes: I'd tell her how beautiful she is. I'd tell her that her body belongs to her and is for her own pleasure so when she is ready (and has responsibly dealt with fertility issues) it is hers to give to whoever she likes, respects and admires and wants to share it with. I'd tell her sex is magically wonderful when it's with the right person and that it should feel splendid, and if it doesn't, it's not right and she should stop. I'd tell her she always has the power to decide to stop and she should use it. I'd tell her that attraction and desirability are internal as well as external, and the guys commenting on her outsides haven't seen her insides and she hasn't seen theirs, and until that happens, it doesn't mean anything at all.

And since I'm not having kids, I dispense advice happily to other people's kids :>

So while all of you may have naive daughters ..... I wouldn't exactly jump to the conclusion that they're all as innocent as they would have you believe. Adolescence is, and is supposed to be, a time of experimentation and a time of establishing a life seperately from that of your family....
--- Desert Spring

Thanks, Desert Spring for your refreshing honesty.

I think Polly kind of freaked out by misunderstanding me
and thinking I was advocating that 12-year-olds join a
harem and be the sexual playthings of lusty older men.
LOL :rolleyes:

Far from it, I just meant that they should understand
that everything you just described in your own past
as well as your boyfriend's past might be right around
the corner waiting for them. Although time seems to
crawl when you are a kid, for parents the transition
from 12-year-old (junior high) to 15-year-old (high
school freshman) often seems instantaneous. That is
all I meant by describing a 12- or 13-year-old as a
"young adult."

If I had a daughter suffering as Harrison describes: I'd tell her how beautiful she is. I'd tell her that her body belongs to her and is for her own pleasure so when she is ready (and has responsibly dealt with fertility issues) it is hers to give to whoever she likes, respects and admires and wants to share it with. I'd tell her sex is magically wonderful when it's with the right person and that it should feel splendid, and if it doesn't, it's not right and she should stop.

I agree 100%. Again, I consider all these issues to be
those of a "young adult" as opposed to a child.

Maybe it's useful to draw a timeline to explain myself to
others who think I'm a kook or something :) :

Age 12: Adult-size bust; period starts;
masturbation's cool; boys starting to not look as "yucky"
as they used to. ;) It's junior-high time.

Age 13: More of same; start getting used to
shopping for bras & Tampax; if cute, boys start winking
at you more, asking for your phone number, etc.

Age 14: More of same; now boys are interested
in going to the movies with you; girlfriends want to
hang out at the mall together, go to parties, check out
boys, etc. In some places like South Dakota, you
can get your first motor vehicle license with some
restrictions. Woooo-hoo! :D

Age 15: All of the above and possibly much more.
1st base, 2nd base, 3rd base. By now, if the parents
notice the daughter is looking like "hot stuff," then she
should probably be on birth control. (Just to be safe)

Age 16: By now, a great many girls have "gone
all the way" at least once. If their families have the
money, they are driving themselves to and from school
in their own car on a regular basis. With a car and a
cell-phone, there are tons of opportunities to
"hook up!" Hopefully, the parents have talked over
the risks in a responsible manner, and no tragedies
result.


Anyway, I hope this explains why I see 12-and-up as the
"young adult" phase. For many kids, there's not a whole
lot of innocence going on there, if ya think about it.

But, hey, every family's different. :)

I remember when I was 14, 15, 16, 17 (and I always looked younger than I was, which I HATED, more like 11, 12, 13, 14), older guys would leer and make disgusting comments. I NEVER found it flattering when a 45-y/o man would make comments like that. Never. I found it threatening and it felt like a violation. But I never had the guts to tell them to f-off... I just sorta took it.

Anyway, what's my point? I guess just that, unlike the other stories described in this thread, I didn't look like an adult at all. I looked younger even than the boys in my class, but yet I was still subjected to the looks and comments... what advice would you give a daughter like that? Just wonderin'.

:D

BTW, to this day I still have a problem with older men hitting on younger women. I am working on it, but it really gets to me.

My daughter is 9, and thus far I have not had to deal with such issues, though I know that is coming soon enough.

However, my students are 12/13 years old.. many times in my teaching career, I've had to deal with issues regarding some type of sexual molestation, or sexual harrassment of young girls.

On occasion, boys will make comments, grab innappropriately, etc. I do not tolerate that in any way, shape or form. If one of my students approaches me and tells me this is happening, it is dealt with immediately. In school, I'm a kind of surrogate mom (among other job titles). "My girls", need to feel confident enough to come to me with problems like this, and know that I will be an advocate for them, and take action. To do nothing, is to send a message that they are not valued. This goes for boys as well.

One year, the problem was so bad with boys touching girls, and no amount of parent conferences, suspensions, or other disciplinary actions seemed to matter. One day I finally notified the class in my nicest teacher voice, that if any boy dared touch a girl again, she had my permission to give that boy a good swift kick in the groin.. and I would look the other way. Was this wrong of me? Yes, and maybe could have meant my job. But I was at my wits end at this point. Fortunately for me, the scare tactic worked... and it never happened again.

Starting over again with my two small children, is to me an easier task being that I went through a learning experiance with my oldest son. With my daughter it is some what more of a difficult situation, because at the age of two she got sick and was in intensive care, although she lived (thank God) it caused her delays and took her back a few years. At the age of 7 she started developing into woman hood, now at 10 she has to wear a bra. How do you tell a little girl who is like a 5-7 year old that she is becoming a woman, and how can she handle that kind of responsibility? To much for a little child in her mind to handle I think. But I told her the truth, I said that she is developing faster then some girls her age, she isn't in the school system anymore I have her in a private school, but I do the teaching as they protect me and her with the law by keeping all school records of what I've taught, so she doesn't deal with any ridicule, and ever sense I made this step.......her self esteem has improved big time. As for my son, I'm very opened to him and he is secure enough to tell me whats going on in his life.......keep the communication open, and always know what your kids are doing. If they have stability at home then they can get through lifes difficulties out there.:)

Communication with one's children is the most important thing.
--- Trish

Bingo! I'm with you there, 100%. In my view, the more
effective the communication, the less childish of an
adolescent you have.

I never had it growing up. I was 17-years-old and I knew where babies came from, but I didn't know how they got there. Of course that was a slightly different time than it is now, but it wasn't good. I was TOO niave at that age. My kids just have kind of grown up knowing things. They've gotten the information they need in a time appropriate manner.

My daughter started menstruating and developing at age 12, and she was still playing with Barbies. All she wore was big baggie clothes.

There is nothing wrong with preserving our children's innocence for as long as we can, while still providing them with the knowledge and guidance that they need for the future...even a year or so down the road.

Okay! I can agree with that, as long as it works for the
kid. Different kids have different needs. If your kids were
not traumatized or depressed, or into gangs, drugs,
teen pregnancy etc., then it looks like "preservation of
innocence" was okey-dokey for them.

I think that's cool.

And Harrison, I agree with Nessa. Check back with us in a few years when you have your own children.

LOL Will do! But in the meantime, I still have all these
questions and infuriating comments!! :p :D

It's my job to question conventional wisdom.

HARRISON! I wasn't going "psycho" on you, I was truly feeling like you were advocating pediphiles (or closet, would-be pediphiles) by making it sound like overly developed kids should just "grin and bear it" when it came to leering men. Oh, BTW, where are you from??? I thought you were from Africa? I understand you're American now, but I thought when you met Pookie you were in Africa? I'm sorry if I'm wrong, and it really doesn't matter where you're from, I just was trying to make the point that if you were from a country that had a drastically different view of children, that would be an explanation of why our points of view were so different.

Actually, they're really not that different as I have read the rest of the thread. But, Desert Spring, you were saying that at 17 you loved being leered at. Yeah, so did I, at 17. What in the world does that have to do with 12? That five year time span might as well be 2 decades when you're going through puberty and adolesence. I was talking about a 12-year-old girl who has a body most 18's wish for. She doesn't want it. She's tall, she's thin, she has boobs almost as big as mine, and can wear all those hip-huggers and belly shirts. She likes looking cool to her girlfriends, but when boys and men leer at her, she gets visibly uncomfortable. Now, I think the child should be able to wear whatever she wants and not get harassed, because again, when you look her in the face, you can tell she's 12! She doesn't want to wear "nerdy" stuff! What kid does?

I aspire to be a mother like Dyan, God love her! She raised five kids, single-handedly and successfully! She has the energy of an entire bee hive! She's got a gift for motivational speaking. I'd like to think that I carry some of the motherly traits that Dyan does. Communication is one. Letting my kids know where babies come from early is two. Telling my teen-aged son that he had better NOT have sex, because it will ruin his life, he has too much going for him and could really become whatever he chooses due to his intelligence and great personality, and having a child as a teen would ruin so many other life opportunities for him, plus, I'm not ready to be a grandmother!!! Telling my daughter as well as Whitney, to get away immediately from boys who try to touch them. Boys will do and say anything to kiss a girl or touch her in areas that are not okay, and when they go out to play flash light tag or take a night hike (we live in the woods) if a boy does anything like that, to run home together and tell me!!! I have also personally told ALL the boys in the neighborhood, that if I ever HEAR of any of them touching my daughter or Whitney, I will kill them first and tell the parents later!!! :D No, really though, I said, "You WILL NOT touch those girls! There will be serious consequences to pay. Is there anything you don't understand about what I just said, or do you have any questions?" I actually DID tell one boy I would kill him if he touched my daughter or her friends last summer. He hasn't been back. I had good reason to say what I did with that one! Harrison, even YOU would have done it!

So anyway, I'd like to reiterate how HARD it is to be a parent, especially a single one (as I was for five years) and strive to help your kids reach their personal best. At this point, it becomes the real parents against the speculative ones. If you haven't had one, you have NO IDEA how much ***** you'll go through!!! It's like trying to imagine what it's like to be an astronaut in space, or what it's like to battle cancer, or what's it's like to win the lottery. You can speculate, you can imagine, you can have all your ducks lined up neatly in a row, and then reality hits, the baby comes and "Oh my f*cking God, I wasn't ready for this!!! Where's the manual??? What the ***** do I do now??? HEEELLLLLP MEEEEEE!!!" Try feeling that way for umpteen years, Brother! Each kid is as unique and different as each passing day on this planet. No manuals, no blueprints, no guarantees. Some days, it's like the blind leading the blind! You perservere because you HAVE TO. You have to because your love for your child is so strong, it surpasses any human explanation or simple definition. It just IS.

ok Harrison I just got the chance to read the thread tonight and let me say this what i read with alot of the responses i agree with them. I myself have a 11 year old who is developing and going throught the teasing cause of it and i just told her that the boys who are teasing her are very inmature at this age and i calmly told her that she was developing fast the other girl into woman hood. Now the way i see it until other thing happen thats the way i'm going to leave it. I'm only going to start saying other things when the time is right cause right now even with the developing she still think boys kissing and that kind of stuff is gross. Deal with one thing at a time dont go into something that doesnt need to be changed right now.NOw as for her starting to hang around the wrong crowd it a totaly different thing you see. I that happens then i didnt teach her right in the first place. When you have kids you will learn what kind of person they will grow into waiting and seeing how they handle this will show you if you need to teach or start them on things but to sit back and say well if this happens i should do this or i should do that wont help.

Originally posted by Nessa
Pink Cat

Just so you don't feel left out. I have guilt that it bothers me about older men with younger women.... yeah what is it with that????

I know, I feel guilty too! A little like a hypocrite. I don't know what it is!!!! :)

OMG, Dyan! Where did I get five kids??? You know, I am the WORST fact-checker. I'm sorry. I thought somewhere you had posted having five kids. My bad. It's so hard to keep everyone straight in my mind. I've been here TOO LONG!!! :D Harrison is NOT from South Africa, and Dyan DOESN'T have five kids. Sheesh! Okay, guys, I think I'll take a little break. Apparently, Alzheimer's has set in early for me.

I am sorry to all, didn't mean to get facts wrong. :(

I don't have kids, and I really didn't read everypost so I may be a little off topic, but here goes,

I was in Japan about five years ago as an exchange student, the japanese try to keep their children and culture way more concervative that the american culture. The girls have to wear clothes down to their knees or almost less than 4" away, no make-up. that sort of things, now they see new age culture that shows sexy clothes, makeup, and anything else that they see.

These children want something that they cant have, and My point is.....Is it fair to them not to allow them to have these things and dress that way if it makes them unhappy....I feel that if it is not endangering themselves or anyone else and they are happy, let them dress how they want, concervative or unconvervative.

That is my opinion NOW, I don't have kids, and my opinion may change once I have a child.....

Well ya know what gals......

I'm from the 'other side' of the boards. I'm assuming when you get queasy about OM/YW age gaps, you're reacting to ones like mine (22/39) and not the older ones (such as 50/69) of other people. I guess in a way this could be called hypocritical, but no one ever said just because you're a member of one board, you have to be a fan of the other. When I think about a guy my age dating an older woman, I honestly wonder what kind of guy this is in order to fool someone that's supposedly so much wiser, cuz the guys I'm meeting are not up to code for half the women their OWN age! As a rule, though, I really never think about it. Perhaps you don't like that old cultural lie that women are as old as they look, and men are as old as they feel. (Or as old as the woman they're feeling, that's another good one.) Understandable. This society is still highly patriarchal, so the idea that older men deserve young, lithe bodies instead of ones that match their own is repugnant and sexist. HOWEVER: This is not how a "real" age-gap relationship works. This site is called AGELESS LOVE, not Disgusting Stereotypical Sordid Affairs. You could argue all day about older men using younger women for looks, sex, a youthful feeling, etc. BUT you'd just as easily get it all back in your face. You're clinging to a stereotype, and it's dangerous for those who don't want to be stereotyped to stereotype others. You're judging people you don't know and have often never seen. How do you know I'm as dumb as you were at 22? How do you know I'm much better-looking than my OM? How do you know if he's anywhere near smart enough to manipulate me?

You don't.

Besides, this whole thing is like gays saying lesbians are weird and disgusting or vice versa. I'm all for individual opinions, as long as they are firmly backed by sound logical arguments.

Do older women dating younger men have a logical leg to stand on in judging older men dating younger women? Ha! The Golden Rule is EVER so Golden, ladies.....

Oh oh!! I can see it coming on:eek:

Hey.....gays and lesbians have plenty of nasty digs for each other.....but they still march together in Pride parades.

So it goes, when one side of the argument is all about embracing what the other side has forgone.....

Polly, I posted about when I was 17 because several people mentioned that age in relation to their daughters on the chit-chat version of this thread (before Harrison relocated it).

Honestly, I was receptive to getting leered at from 9th grade on (14 1/2) and before that, sadly, no one ever leered at me at all :>

To some degree, I think talking about a 12 year old is a bit of a red herring - makes the conversation much easier than talking about a mature looking 14 or 15 year old, which is a much more common scenario IRL and more complex, as girls do start to feel their potential power over boys at that age - and don't always know what to do with it.

As for what Datura said: I agree. Before I was involved with a guy sixteen years younger than me, I was married to a man 11 years older than me and I know all about the stupid stererotyping from both sides - and it's just as dumb and painful.

Yep some guys date young bimbos for the wrong reasons. Some women do, too. And some people just fall in love out of sync and make the best of it. Stereotyping on the basis of age just hurts us all.

HARRISON! I wasn't going "psycho" on you, I was truly feeling like you were advocating pediphiles (or closet, would-be pediphiles) by making it sound like overly developed kids should just "grin and bear it" when it came to leering men.

Okay, Polly! No harm done. :D

My understanding is that a "leer" is just an unwelcome,
vaguely lascivious sort of stare.

There is no way you can force people to stop doing that.
If you are a black, Hispanic or other 'visible minority' you
get used to "dirty looks" when you are in a mean, tough
"redneck" community. The same thing may happen if you
are a white citizen who wanders into a rough, hard-core
"ghetto" neighborhood. In either case, you just have to
ignore the low-IQ losers, press on, and mind your business.

As far as busty adolescent girls go, I would never say
to a daughter of mine, "Grin and bear it." Rather I would
say something like "If you feel angry, give them an angry
look!" or "We just have to ignore rude people." Those are
typical adult reactions, I think.

But I do believe in attire that minimizes guys' chance
to "check you out" when you walk down the street.

Now, I think the child should be able to wear whatever she wants and not get harassed, because again, when you look her in the face, you can tell she's 12! She doesn't want to wear "nerdy" stuff!

Sorry! Check with Snowy's response on this---which is
to have your kid carefully select her clothing. We should
not let youngsters get away with calling business attire
"nerdy stuff." It's professional, adult clothing, that's all.

It's an adult fact of life that your clothes should
match the respect you want from people. Kids have
trouble getting this, but adults understand this very
easily. Why not clue a 12-year-old into this simple fact
of adult life and save her from grief? Hopefully that
won't wreck her innocence, will it? :)

In other words, if you are a highly capable woman
defense lawyer with a curvaceous figure, appearing
before the judge in a mini-skirt and a halter-top with
matching platform heels, is not exactly the best way to
be taken seriously. :D

It is, however, a great way to get some men leering
at you in a hurry---if that's what you want. :rolleyes:

Now there are times when even sober, respectable
office attire will still reveal a voluptuous figure, but I
don't think this is the situation of the youngster that
you are looking after.

However, my students are 12/13 years old.. many times in my teaching career, I've had to deal with issues regarding some type of sexual molestation, or sexual harrassment of young girls.

On occasion, boys will make comments, grab innappropriately, etc. I do not tolerate that in any way, shape or form. If one of my students approaches me and tells me this is happening, it is dealt with immediately. In school, I'm a kind of surrogate mom (among other job titles). "My girls", need to feel confident enough to come to me with problems like this, and know that I will be an advocate for them, and take action.


If all public schools were filled with teachers as caring
as you, a lot of the BS that adolescent girls suffer from
would simply disappear.

I applaud you!

Now...out on the city streets, it's a different story. But
I think that's more a case of just learning to ignore rude
people. Construction workers might leer or make
comments, but none of 'em are going to walk up to the
young adolescent woman and swat her on the *** or
anything like that.

Well you can't tell them too wear cloths that aren't in Style, but......
Have you seen the tight t-shirts that come above the belly the girls are wearing in school, they make even itty bittys look big.

I guess as a mom I would want my daughter, to choose her cloths wisely.

Cloths are a big thing, but if chosen wisely and conservative, even big titties can look smaller.

SnowPrincess,

I think you have an excellent point here.

Let me ask you (and anyone else) one question: Do
you support public schools that want to start a "School
Uniform Policy"?

Some principals like the idea of all kids wearing the
same thing: a standard, respectable-looking uniform,
usually a blouse and knee-length skirts for girls, and
shirt & tie plus slacks for boys.

This would cut down on the "sexy" look, but also save
lots of $$$ for parents because they wouldn't have to
buy their kids the latest and most expensive cool, hip
gear each fall.

What do you think?

@Datura81: Well, you are right, there's a lot of stereotyping going on concerning age gap relationships, and yes, people in such relationships should - by definition - at least face their bias and maybe "work" on it a bit, but I am getting the feeling the point has been conceded here ;) .

I have noticed that it seems to be the mothers (of daughters) mostly, speaking up about their uncomfortable feeling about YW/OM relationships here. Personally, I think the defining element of any relationship should be mutual respect for each other - if that is shown to be the case, I guess it is easier to accept an age gap relationship; it's mainly when it seems that one or the other side is being taken advantage of, that the feeling about the relationship is getting uncomfortable - and that would apply to me too, I guess. Now, I suspect that "moms" are focusing much more on "searching" for ways their daughters might be taken advantage of, that's why they are maybe more uncomfortable, but that's just my hypothesis, might be way of track (I have no kids myself ;) ).

However, I have seen age gap relationships from both sides (when I was 20 or so, I went out with a guy in his 40s for a couple of years; now (35) I am dating a 19-yr old guy). In both cases, age was not the defining factor - it's about the PERSON, not the age, really; however, the person is also being defined by their experience, views on life etc where the stage in life matters. And I can say for sure that what I was looking for and appreciated as a 20-yr old kind of differs to my current outlook on things (I am pretty sure I wouldn't have fallen for my YM when I was 20 (well, he probably neither for me - lol) or with my then OM now). That's just life and the learning process I have been going through. But I think that's ok, as long as you respect each other and are not out to hurt anyone by what you are doing.

I think the problem with the bias against age gap relationships where one partner or the other is very young, is the perception of imbalance in experience which might lead to be one or the other side being taken advantage of, and the relationship being seen therefore as "demeaning"; not sure why people assume that YW need more protection than YM in that respect though, really beats me ;)

Anyway, my 2 ct's here only, so I hope I haven't stepped on anyone's toes ;)

Oh, and final note on kids: I think that very often young girls might not be uncomfortable with issues on sex and boys/men per se (I remember that to be one of our favourite topics from age 10+ at my age ;) ), but more with becoming (self-)conscious sexual beings around their PARENTS; so, if I had a daughter telling me that kissing boys was "gross", I guess I would take that with a pinch of salt ;) - but then, like Harrison, I am just an external observer with personal histories ... ;)

So many issues to address so little time!!!!!

I just read 18 million posts starting at another thread and I finally get to reply... and I don't know where to start! :(

No problem, I'll just talk about whatever. I can ramble with the best of them.

Regarding the mindest of the young and how that mindset should be approached.

At what age does a kid stop being a kid? Who the heck knows! Everybody's different and some people mature faster than others. But I will say one thing, most of the time, people mature out of necessity. That is to say that one becomes an adult when one has no other choice but to do so. You have to start paying rent and working for the money to pay that rent... and so on. You are introduced to the concept of responsibility. Most of the time this happens coming out of high school, or at least it begins there. But until such a time as you are responsible for your own well being, you're pretty much a kid. I'm gonna go with that definition.
I am reluctant to speak on the experiences of a young girl as I was never young girl, over developed or otherwise. But I would venture to say that, as a parent, you should definetely talk about it(or anything else that is bothering your kid).
Men gawking at women is an inevitable part of life. Being such, it's something that a girl is going to have to learn to deal with eventually. With any luck, she'll deal with it well.
Were it my own daughter, my first impulse would be to make it clear to them that there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. From there I would approach it in a simple way. If someone is doing something that bothers you... do something. (let's be pro-active!) If they bother you... bother them back.
"Next time they look at your chest... flick a booger at 'em!"
I'm fully aware that this is a ridiculously guy thing to say and in all actuality, I would probably resort to... "Let's go ask your mother."
As a man, it does strike me as a difficult topic to deal with.
Oh man... I'm gonna be so screwed if I have daughter. :(


back to the kids thing...
I don't know how much protection is required nor at which point it becomes unneccessary. I mean, you want to protect your kids, but you don't want them to be too ignorant, because then they won't have the tools they need to fend for themselves.
I will say this though, it has been my experience in the past that I've learned a lot more from screwing things up, than I have from doing them right. When you make a mistake, you tend to take a step and go "Whoa! That's ain't the way that should be done." You learn from your mistakes.
So I think that kids(or anybody for that matter) need a little room to make some mistakes and have their parents there to support them when they do.
That having been said.... if my kids do ANY of the things that I did as a kid I'll probably freak out. Man I was a handful... but that's another story entirely. I have since apologized to my parents. :) Oh man. God I hope my kids aren't like me!

What the hell was I talking about anyways?

Sombody said something about school uniforms.

So I went to catholic school through the sixth grade. During that time we were required to wear uniforms... and I hated it! HATED IT, HATED IT! So when I transfered to public school in seventh grade I was like.... WOOHOO!!!! I get to pick my own cloths!!! Unfortunately, I had no fashion sense and I ended up wearing all black, all the time. I was all about skinny puppy and metallica(before they sucked). It took me a good while to realize that the pretty girls weren't dating the guys that wore all black. They dated the guys that wore the expensive cloths. Naturally, I had to change my style in the interest of scoring. Besides, all the "cool" kids had designer cloths, so I wanted some too.
The point in all this(cuz I know you're wondering) is that it served as more of a distraction than anything else. Self expression through cloths is seriously over-rated. Kids are just gonna dress like whoever they want to hang out with, thus creating their own levels of social stratification which I think stinks.
Uniforms save the parents money, and they help to fight the polarization of our youth!
Besides, kids are just gonna wear whatever the "cool" people on Mtv wear anyways.

Don't even get me started on MTV

Hmmmmmmmm....
Someone needs to shut me up.

Figaro

Originally posted by Harrison
[i]


Let me ask you (and anyone else) one question: Do
you support public schools that want to start a "School
Uniform Policy"?

Some principals like the idea of all kids wearing the
same thing: a standard, respectable-looking uniform,
usually a blouse and knee-length skirts for girls, and
shirt & tie plus slacks for boys.

This would cut down on the "sexy" look, but also save
lots of $$$ for parents because they wouldn't have to
buy their kids the latest and most expensive cool, hip
gear each fall.

What do you think?

I had to chuckle when I read this :D .......... I most of my school life I wore school uniform (in England it is the norm) an I can assure u we found ways of making it look as trendy an fashionable as possible...... Micro mini skirts were a norm worn with huge sweaters an over the knee socks an I attended a school that tried very hard to enforce uniform standards :D ........ My Daughter and her peers also adapted their uniforms to reflect current fashion........

As a parent I can also say that uniforms r expensive and make it very easy to spot the poorest kids, leaving them open to bullying an ridicule (I say this from experiance)

OH NO! I forgot about the whole sexuality aspect of kids!

That's what this whole thing's about isn't it? Sheesh!

Okay, okay, okay... I'll keep it short.

Two points

1) Sex requires a certain level of responsibility. Kids are not responsible, because they don't have to be. Kids probably shouldn't be having sex. That being said, they're going to do it anyways because sex is great fun and kids love having fun.

2) They are made more curious to the fact because it is often related to them that sex is an awful, disgusting, lewd, trashy act that you save for the one person that you truly love. Which doesn't really make any sense now does it?

Okay three points 3) Kids(boys at least) are going to have sex because they're horny.

I think that the best that you can do is do your best to ensure that they handle themselves responsibly when they do have sex.

Figaro

@Figaro: I like the points you are making ;)

Regarding school uniform: again, an outside opinion, but I grew up in Germany (went both to school and university there) where school uniforms generally don't exist, ppl wear what they like. So yes, you get some differentiation on the clothes you are wearing, but at some stage there will be always some search for differentiation.

What I noticed, however, when I went to study and teach in the UK where kids predominantly wear school uniforms, is that students in the UK are - on average, of course - MUCH worse / freakishly dressed then students at German universities (that includes hair style as well, btw).

The difference to me was striking, really ... - my personal hypothesis has been that this is related to the fact that - due to the lack of school uniforms in Germany - teens get this "experimental clothing" phase much earlier out of their system than in the UK ... ;)

Conclusion: I am all up for individualism as early as possible, ... ;)

Conclusion: I am all up for individualism as early as possible,

lest we be plagued by a youth with poor fashion sense! :)

Actually, when you put it that way. Individulaism is definetely a good thing. Hmmmmmmmm. There must be a happy medium.

At what age do you think it's OK for kids to start having sex???

Approximately 32... maybe 33. :)

I don't know really. It just depends on the kid. Hell, sex STILL gets me into trouble and I'm 25!

How do you ensure they are responsible about it? I have boys and all I can do it talk to them and explain to them what the deal is. Should I buy them condoms? What about if they want to smoke should I buy them cigarettes too? Smoking is fun when you're a kid it makes you feel grown up. Sex is fun too and makes you feel grown up but that doesn't mean it's good for you.

First of all, I'm reluctant to give any advice as to what to tell kids because I'm not too sure that I wasn't a bad kid myself.

How do you ensure that they are responsible? I don't think that you can ever be 100% sure. :( Just try to do your best and hope things go well.

Should you buy them condoms? I'll be honest, I have no idea. I don't think that I would unless they asked me to. I don't see myself volunteering them. That's not to say that it's a bad idea though. I just really don't know. So... maybe? At least make sure that they know what they are and where to get them.

Should you buy them cigarettes? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
And I say that being a smoker myself.

Sex IS fun, and that's why they're gonna do it. Does it mean it's good for them? Heck no. It probably isn't. But is it "good" for any of us? Does it further our goals in life? Not really. But it sure makes living a little more fun huh?

I think that an adult should have a healthy respect for sex. Pregnancy, STD's... plenty to think about.

Not to put to fine a point on it but... the first time(if ever) that one of your boys finds that it hurts to pee, he'll be a lot more careful the next time. Experience is such an unforgiving teacher.

Figaro

Guess I shoulda checked back here sooner... ;) Is it too late to address this now?

Datura, Nessa pretty much covered it... I am not proud of the fact that I still have a little prejudice about om/yw relationships... which is why I brought it up. And I NEVER said that I think that you are better looking than he is, or whatever else you said. I don't believe in all that... the stereotypes and whatnot.

It has always bothered me, from the time I was a KID, like 10 years old, that if a younger woman goes out with an older man, it's okay but if a younger man goes out with a younger woman, people are like, "What's HIS problem? Can't he get anyone better?" etc. etc.

Being in a (relatively small) age-gap relationship is teaching me about NOT JUDGING people quite as much as I used to.

But let's face it: ow/ym are subject to a lot more prejudice (it must be the sex, what's the matter with him, she must be immature). Om/yw are no stranger to the prejudice, but it's wayyy more accepted, and that bothers me. Man, everyone is GOING ON about Demi and Ashton... like, how could he possibly be attracted to someone so old? HELLO, she's only 40, and she's arguably one of the most beautiful women in the world. People's reactions to this offend me.

In any case, I am learning. I recently met a couple - man was 70, woman was 55. I thought, isn't that nice, an age-gap relationship.

I still think that most women are uncomfortable dating younger men, because they have it ingrained that they are old and undesirable if they aren't 20 anymore. That is horrible. We deserve to feel value as human beings independent of our youthfulness.

I never understand why some people link physical development to emotional development.
What does breast/hair appearance in a girl have to do with being able to have sex? It's not because we are born that we can go to university. We first go through different stages of studying before getting there. The same is valid for our bodies.
The nearest you are to the equatorial line, the earlier you start menstruating. As early as 9 years old. Two years before menstruation, girls start showing pre-puberal signs as breast development and genital pilosity (hair). At 10 many girls already have breasts and pubic hair quite developed. Does anybody look at them as sexually ready?
Yes. We call them pedophiles.
Is this something that we decided it's not good just because of our morality and that in fact it's something that goes against nature as so many pedophiles say?
No. Not at all. The more we know about children psychology and a child's body, the more it's proved that there's a physiological and psychological age for sex. And it's not at 12, not at 14, we think it is after 15 but it might be as late as 17 or 18 (depending as what we are looking at, if it is pregnancy and other sexually related diseases risks, or psychological maturity).

There where the pedophiles and people that amuse themselves trying to find good reasons to justify sex for teenagers and pre-teenagers get burnt is in the medical implications of starting sex very early in life. I've written before about it, the vagina is mono-layered during the teenager years, which facilitates contamination by sexually transmitted diseases, even with a very low charge of the agent in question. Pregnancy in young women is much more likely to be complicated by conditions such as eclampsia and pre-eclampsia. And so on.

About cultures where marriage was or is allowed for young girls as early as 12...well, isn't it strange that we are disgusted by all those "third world" things such as making young children work, treating those populations as slaves, or their lack of respect of human rights in so many fields, but incredibly some of us will be very respectful towards their ideas of giving to marriage almost pre-puberal girls.


We should stop talking theory and start studying a bit more about children and adolescents before just continuing to use old and used arguments that reflect the lack of understanding of what we all are at one moment of our lives: children.

Puberal and pre-puberal children have a very hard time with an over functioning limbic system which is not yet completely controlled by the cortical areas of our brain. The cortex is the reasoning part, it's always controlling the limbic system, which is the instinctive part. When there's reduced control, like in children going through puberty, we tend to let the instincts take over. What saves us from just being animals is our cortex. Also, the fact that girls develop this cortical area before boys, helps during that phase when boys will only think about sex. As girls mature earlier, they tend to be more careful to start their sexual lives. Still, they are very much like the boys, easily tricked into doing things they are not ready for.

It's not because a body has two pair of breasts and round hips that the person inside is ready for sex. For once and for all, let's not give the right to sick adults to try to apply to children what they apply to their life. Sex is much more than bodies and hormones, and if an adult wants to forget this, okay. But children should have us all to protect them from the badly intentioned ones.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking!

Maria, thank you for posting on this. I agree with everything you said - I just didn't have the education to word it correctly! :D

I'm just wondering about the long scientific speech
against "pedophiles" and just who it is aimed at?

And why?


Certainly, pedophilia is not the topic of the thread, is
it???

In any case, there are a number of women on the
forum who've admitted to having sex with minors in
the past. Some of you may have had phone calls with
these ladies, or know them on a first-name basis, and
consider them your friends. Certainly not people you
call the FBI on.

Is Maria's post ----and all the supporting comments in
favor of her post--- meant to ostracize these ladies
in any way?

Make them feel ashamed of having slept with "children?"

I'm just wondering about what it's all supposed to mean?

This thread has definitely gone where I didn't want it to.

Just to clarify, the discussion began about how to
help a distraught or disturbed adolescent deal with
the stress of an unusually developed body. The thread
was not about why it's great for adults to prey
upon minors for sexual gratification. :rolleyes:

On an open forum such as this one, you have to be prepared for the thread to take on a life of its own. Sometimes threads I start don't go in the direction I want either, but that's life... same goes for conversations IRL.

Maria, thank you so much for taking time to explain the medical & physical reasons for adults to not confuse a maturing 12 year old body with a 18 year old. And we did not even get into the emotional aspect of sex at that age.

Thanks again. I am going to copy and paste and save your post!
Barbara

Originally posted by Harrison
[i]

Let me ask you (and anyone else) one question: Do
you support public schools that want to start a "School
Uniform Policy"?

Some principals like the idea of all kids wearing the
same thing: a standard, respectable-looking uniform,
usually a blouse and knee-length skirts for girls, and
shirt & tie plus slacks for boys.

This would cut down on the "sexy" look, but also save
lots of $$$ for parents because they wouldn't have to
buy their kids the latest and most expensive cool, hip
gear each fall.

What do you think?

My opinion is yes to uniforms, only if the schools can't keep a dress code enforced. But..........todays style would be boys pants and shirt, no ties, girls pants and shirt, skirt optional.
In our area they are treading on a dress code, so far they have come up with, no mid-drifs showing and no underwear showing, no pants dragging on the ground, no vulgar language on shirts, no clevage showing, or butt cracks! no gang colors,
My boys dress pretty conservative, jeans or Khakis (proper fit) T-shirt and a dress shirt unbuttoned over it.

If my school decided to go with a uniform policy, I would have no problem with it.

Originally posted by Harrison I'm just wondering about the long scientific speech
against "pedophiles" and just who it is aimed at?

And why?


I beg your pardon, why do you think it was directed at someone here?
Nobody, as far as I have noticed, neither you or others, has written anything that would make think you were pedophiles. It's not a reaction to what is written here, so calm down, Harrison.

I wanted to make clear to people here that there are trashy people in this world who will see their "busty 12 year old" (using your expression) daughters as sexually attractive. I also wanted to show that we can't forget that they are just children in puberty, going through adolescence, and not young adults. They live a turmoil inside and whatever they do, is not yet the action of an adult, but the action of a child in a body that has many adult functions, but is still fragile for an adult life.

I think I have the right to tell parents that it's not because our teenagers are facing sexuality earlier and earlier, that this is good, or that it's acceptable; it’s in fact dangerous for their physical health.
I happen to have worked with children all my life and thought a bit of medical insight in the problem of an early sexuality could help parents here, and also that whatever some people try to tell them about how normal it is to have sex earlier, they should not believe or take it into consideration, because this is the typical argument of pedophiles and their similar. My post all turned around of the child sexuality and not around pedophiles, but these latter are around children aren't they? And they are often the ones trying to make it look as if children "wanted" it.

Parents don't have to just accept things; they are there for orientation, too. If the fashion now is to get pregnant at 15, well, just don't lower your head and go with the cattle. There are risks there and we have to be more and more conscious of them.

And, I am sorry, but I was very clear about the age thing. I don't think I have seen any women here dating children. I put my emphasis on children under 15, although legally some places allow marriages over 14. I said that depending on what you are looking, 17 may be young and I was talking about pregnancy with eclampsia mainly, so medically speaking there's increased risk, but psychologically it’s a whole different story. We can find very mature people at 17, but excuse me I am yet to find a very mature 12.

Anyway, if what I said disturbed you, it seems to have helped others, who are parents, and maybe needed the info. I've seen threads derive in a much worse way, with no useful info and lots of aggressions, and I don't think I said anything out of the subject.

Correct me if I am wrong. I just meant to clarify things.

Hey Harrison, quit going "psycho" on Maria! :D

I just wanted to reiterrate what I had said earlier to DS, namely that there is a WORLD of difference between age 12 and age 17. Let's take me for example. At 12, I was playing with Barbies, in Girl Scouts, playing pretend now and then, was still a virgin, and still had all of my childhood innocence intact.

Fast forward to 17: I was going into bars with a fake I.D. to see bands, I was singing in a band, I was working in a diner, I had an older bf, I was NOT a virgin, and I knew that whatever I did was my responsibility.

I still believe 17-year-olds are kids, but they are on the verge of adulthood and sometimes there's nothing you can do to stop them. At least in an American society, they have the option to remain kids if they want to. 12-year-olds can and MUST be stopped. They are infinitely less mature, and simply not at all equipped to handle a mature, sexual relationship.

As far as the extremely small amount of women here who slept with 17-year-olds, I for one, don't support that at all. I've been very outspoken about it. That said, I'm not going to turn my back on women who seem to be otherwise intelligent, compassionate, lovely individuals. They came here for help, because they felt desperate at times in their relationships. I didn't exactly support the relationships, even after the guys became of age, but I wasn't going to prejudge women whose circumstances were unknown to me. I hadn't walked a mile in their shoes.

Mary Lou Latourneau is a pediphile! She slept with a 12-year-old! Sleeping with a 17-year-old, while not ideal, isn't the same thing. Again, I think of 17-year-olds as kids, but at their option. I still think they deserve to have that option.

Nobody, as far as I have noticed, neither you or others, has written anything that would make think you were pedophiles. It's not a reaction to what is written here, so calm down, Harrison.
--- Maria


:D Okay, Maria. I'm calm now. I just didn't know "where
you were coming from" and that is all. All of a sudden
we are talking about pedophiles, and I said "Huh???"

I will view your post as a Public Service Announcement.

Mary Lou Latourneau is a pediphile! She slept with a 12-year-old! Sleeping with a 17-year-old, while not ideal, isn't the same thing. Again, I think of 17-year-olds as kids, but at their option. I still think they deserve to have that option.
--- Polly

I think I understand what you are trying to say, Polly...
but it is not very clear what your rationale is.

Is a 17-year-old different because of a higher level of
maturity than a 12-year-old, or simply because the
17-year-old meets the legal "age of consent" in every
state?

If it's "age of consent" that impresses you, then what
do you think of a modern, advanced European country
like Austria that sets 14 as the legal "age of consent"??

Why does "their" 14 equal "our" 17?? Is the water
different in Austria, or is it some weird Germanic thing....or??? :D

Originally posted by Harrison


If it's "age of consent" that impresses you, then what
do you think of a modern, advanced European country
like Austria that sets 14 as the legal "age of consent"??


Hm, Harrison, are you sure that Austria sets 14 as legal age of consent for sex?! I am German, not Austria, but afaik here 14 is just the age of some limited legal responsibility (which requires still parental consent!!!) - as well as some general choices on whether or not to attend religion classes - I am not aware that it's much different in Austria ...

I always thought that 16 is the age of consent here ;) at least it will most certainly not get you into legal trouble; afaik we don't have something like a statutory rape clause, though ... but maybe that's what you are referring too anyway? Sorry, my English is not always up to scratch on legal issues ;)

Hm, Harrison, are you sure that Austria sets 14 as legal age of consent for sex?! I am German, not Austria, but afaik here 14 is just the age of some limited legal responsibility (which requires still parental consent!!!) - as well as some general choices on whether or not to attend religion classes -

Hi, Carazy...

No, I'm not absolutely sure. I thought I'd read 14, but
maybe it is in fact the "limited legal responsibility" you're
talking about.

Actually, after checking the web via a search of "Austria
age of consent", I find numerous English references that
suggest 14 is the age of consent, but specifically
for heterosexual consent:

Austria's Constitutional Court has ruled unconstitutional a law allowing prison sentences for men having gay sex with men younger than 18.
The court said that making sex between two men over the age of 14 illegal was discriminatory. The age of consent for heterosexual and lesbian sex is 14 in Austria. For gays it is 18.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/austria.htm

So, until recently, the Austrians were cool with teen sex as
long as gays weren't involved. Go figure.

does anyone think that a 14 year old girl is emotionally mature enough for an adult like relationship?

I don't.

--- Nessa

Of course you don't. You're applying your own cultural
standards which are American, Jewish, middle-class.

An Austrian, Catholic, working-class mother might have
a different opinion.

My own opinion is that most 14-year-old girls are NOT
"emotionally mature enough." However, things like IQ,
and socialization vary hugely according to the individual.

There are 14-year-olds who are so smart they are ready
for college-level literature and math. And there are
17-year-olds who can't manage a high-school diploma,
don't know how the U.S. system of government works
---let alone the human reproductive system---and would
have to struggle to make change at a cash register if the
power went out. :rolleyes: So who is better at making
informed decisions?

BTW, Americans have different standards for maturity
while behind the wheel of a car. 14, 15, or 16...our
ages for a first driving license are all over the place,
while in Austria it's one simple age: 18.

Maybe over there they consider teen driving to be far
more dangerous than teen sex. :D

Harrison, just because a kid is a mensa does not mean they can make intelligent decisions. Their EMOTIONAL immaturity will color their common sense.

I would be less upset that two 15 year olds decided to have sex than a 15 year old and a 25 or 35 year old. This is because of the power balance. It is not difficult for a 25 or older person to maniupulate at 14 or 15 year old.

This thread is heading in the direction of the thread with the 65 yr old woman and the 13 year old boy. So I am not going to post anymore about it.. I just said my opinion.... ya'll have fun!

There is a very BIG difference between intelligence
and emotional maturity. Just because a child at the
age of 12 or 14 is ready to enter college does not
mean they are emotionally prepared to make
informed adult decisions.
--- Trish

I don't dispute any of that. My own cynicism about
your "You-have-to-be-18-to-know-what-you're-doing"
philosophy stems from the fact that you can look all
around you and see that many, many adults clearly
do not know what they're doing, and appear
anything but emotionally mature.

The symptoms practically jump out and slap you in the
face:

1) Divorce & single parenthood. This often breaks kids'
hearts. Why would mature parents engage in such
behavior? Is having children with a clown/ditz/jerk/bimbo
and then splitting up with him/her an example of making
an "informed adult decision?

2) Drunk Driving; nothing "informed" about that
decision-making process. Recently here in WA, we
had a Supreme Court justice get busted for major
drunk driving. Oh, she apologized and all that, but in
case you're wondering: No, she didn't resign.
:rolleyes:

3) Alcoholism; self-explanatory

4) Drug Abuse; self-explanatory

5) Promiscuity, etc., etc.


What's it all mean? Well, for starters, I think adults ---if
they were honest with teenagers--- would say "Hey
y'all...we screw up all the time too with dumb-***
mistakes. We just make more money than you do, and
we're older."

Of course that's never going to happen in most house-
holds because it would undermine parental authority.
Most parents have a need to be obeyed without too
much fuss and backtalk, so it becomes essential to
emphasize to teenagers how immature, helpless and
inadequate they are---and how much more "mature"
people are once they're over 18. (Yeah, right!)

How many of us have heard this line from our own
folks, or from parents of friends:

"Look! I pay the bills in this house, got that?? When
you're ready to move out and carry your own load, you
just...." blah-blah-blah-blah :rolleyes:

Parents are so blatantly about controlling
youngsters.

That is why I get a kick out of oddball out-of-the-way
places like South Dakota or Austria where the adults'
attitude is closer to: "Hey, look...you can do some of the
same grown-up things we do. Just be careful, allright?"

Totally different philosophy of parenting, that's all. :D

Diff'rent Strokes for Diff'rent Folks!

*If you were the Mom (or Dad) how would you cope with
a traumatized, depressed adolescent who walks around
with her arms crossed over her bust, acting ashamed or
embarrassed of looking like a mature woman?*

I really would hope that I never got so out of touch with my child that seeing my baby obviously depressed was something new to me. I can't say I'm a huge fan of adolescent girls dressing in a *provocative* manner. And, I realize that defining the word *provocative* is harder than defining the word *pornography*. But, what I would say is that I think I could buy my child dignified, stylish clothing without her looking *provocative* - you know it when you see it.

I most certainly do believe that how you dress affects how you feel. And, I just don't think that clothing that displays breasts in a provocative manner is right for an adolescent. They just don't need that attention at that time in their life. And maybe, they'll never need, as adults, the gratuitous leering that can be common, but that's arguable.

I would just simply tell her that her breasts are nothing to be ashamed of. They are part of her body. She is going to have to learn that they are as beautiful as she as. And if anyone gives her a problem about them...write their name down...and give it to me :)

Most parents are very, very far from being perfect. Some are complete parental failures. Some are complete failures as human beings. But it still does not take away from the fact that most young people are not capable of making wise adult decisions.

--- Trish


Once again, I find myself in agreement with you. :eek:

If we agree that most American "young people" don't
have what it takes to make wise adult decisions, my
next question is: "Why? Do you think this is due to
genetic reasons, or environmental, or cultural factors?"

Harrison, I think there needs to be a certain degree of parental authority in the home. Parents set boundaries for children and monitor their behavior. Children who have no boundaries or monitoring end up falling prey to drug dealers and pimps or gangs. That's because they aren't mature enough to know to keep away from the wrong kind of people. Parents need to be authoritative and demand respect, because if a child doesn't have any respect for authority, that child will grow up thinking he or she can do whatever he or she damned well pleases, with no consequences for his or her behavior. That is, until he or she lands in Juvenile Detention, and later, the Penetentiary.

Children who have parents who set boundaries and monitor behavior, activities, and friends, feel secure and cared about, even if they're not always happy about not being allowed to do something. Kids with involved parents learn self-respect, accountability, and compassion for others. They achieve more and work to succeed. They know what is expected of them and rise to the occassion. Children whose parents have no boundaries for them or expectations, expect nothing from themselves.

You can't apply Liberalism to parenting! It won't work, and you'll be supporting your child until you die!

Remember, it isn't a parent's job to be the child's friend (that comes after the child graduates college). It's the parent's job to be the child's guide, teacher, mentor, disciplinarian, provider, chauffer, cook, launderer, nurse, confidant, protector, and motivator. Those are a parent's job. It doesn't matter if the parent makes mistakes. The parent is still responsible to see that the child has every opportunity to succeed, and to make sure the child utilizes those opportunities, doesn't just throw them away.

Teenagers who are still in school are not adults, nor can make adult decisions (but yes, we do know there are exceptions to this rule) ... and I know this for a FACT as I have been a high school teacher for 25 years. Teens may have become more wordly and sophisticated due to the media, but are not necessarily emotionally more mature. That is why I disagree with part of Harrison's statement: "There are 14-year-olds who are so smart they are ready for college-level literature and math. " Math perhaps, but not the literature, for even though they may be smart, they are NOT mature enough due to their lack of life experience to fully understand or even appreciate these works or their themes, many of which are not even closely appropriate to that age as they were written for an older audience. I mean I did not even let my son read Catcher in the Rye in middle school when he wanted to... as even though he was gifted, I knew he would have missed the point of it due to his lack of maturity and would probably just have highlighted all the curse words!

What also ticks me off the most is when parents of my juniors tell me that they are letting their kids make their own decisions regarding school or that they have no control over their child's behavior. In both cases it is a no win situation.....for the parent, the child and me, for they are in truth, still children who need guidance and HELP. Part of this problem is the fact that education for learning's sake is no longer a priority ; plus add the fact that teens think driving and getting a car is a right and not a privilege thus the vicious cycle of "I need to work so I can have a car"; "I need a car so I can work" is never ending. And what suffers from that element is their education and their last fling at being YOUNG. Some of my students have to pay rent even... to teach them responsibility say their parents....but why that kind of responsibility at age at 16/17??) And I am talking about those who live in poverty...you would not believe how they dress and the number of toys they (and their parents) have at home....gross materialism at its finest.

The second deals with the fashion industry and what they have been doing to little girls since the 80's. All I see today are adult styles done in mini form: leopard (which does connotate sexuality), one shoulder tops, off teh shoulder tops, low rise pants, sexily cut dresses, glittery t-shirts with provocative statements and even thong underware (Abercrombie 8-10 year olds!) Parents not only buy this crap but they also allow thier daughters to go to concerts at ages 8-10 ...what is with that????I just shake my head in despair. Toys R US stated a few years back that they had to go tomore electronic gizmos as they were losing customers because kids were growing up too fast. Twenty years ago, Barbie and GI JOE (and their ilk) were played by children usually up to age 10, but now they say around 6-7 it declines. All of this just TOO flippen early to be healthy. What I want to know is where are the parents who are JUST SAYING NO???? Parenting is just what POLLY said..... cudos girl (and Harrison, until you become one, all of your thinking, ideas and approaches are a moot point....trust me)! And finally, I had my daughter growing up during the Madonna era and had to fight with her about what she could buy to make sure she did not look like a little s**t. And what is the ironic thing about this??? I heard Madonna lament a few years ago that there seems to be no role models for her own daughter...awwww I wonder why!

Agreed. The pop culture is a disaster for children. One has to ask, of course, why we reward the marketers and advertisers by buying their stuff and going to the movies they highlight and watching the TV shows and all the rest of it. We do have options to expose ourselves and our kids to other things, by turning off the TV and staying out of the chain stores and so on, to an extent anyway. Obviously, the kids will be exposed anyway, but at least they will know there are alternatives to the cult of celebrity, money and sexuality.

I know when I was a kid, I absolutely ate up meeting adults who were doing meaningful, interesting work in the world, who had traveled, who had beautiful gardens or stamp collections, who invented things in their backyard or any number of interesting and noncommercial hobbies they would share with me. Boyfriend was the same way and developed a ham radio and electronics hobby thanks to a neighbor who took an interest in him when he was 10, and struggling a bit in his single parent family. In his opinion, the guy saved his life when he was really strangling with boredom and feelings of emptiness and disssatisfaction.

It's not just about protection and authority, it's also about exposing healthy alternatives and models to a sick culture.

It can be done and it has to be.

And while we're at it ...... we can do a little work on preventing some of those multinational corporations from exporting their cynical entertainment empires all over the globe, where they are having a devastating impact on families and the raising of children in other cultures - where they have even less ammunition to contest the dreadful messages being transmitted to the kids.

And I dunno about literature. I read Catcher in the Rye at 13, and Sartre at 15 and so on, and it actually helped me a great deal. Felt like somebody knew what I was feeling inside. Big relief :>

Catcher at 13??? I must be over protective! Not really, for he wasn't even a teenager yet..... but then that is not a college work; only teenage angst at its finest! Now if you had tackled Ulysses at that age! YIKES!!!!
And my juniors are exposed to Sarte and Camus and other people who represent different philosophies as well; but that type of thinking is different than reading adult themed novels that they cannot relate to yet.

PS. and I agree with you regarding the Americanization of the world..... it can benefit no one in the long run.

Teens may have become more wordly and sophisticated due to the media, but are not necessarily emotionally more mature. That is why I disagree with part of Harrison's statement: "There are 14-year-olds who are so smart they are ready for college-level literature and math. "

Math perhaps, but not the literature, for even though they may be smart, they are NOT mature enough due to their lack of life experience to fully understand or even appreciate these works or their themes, many of which are not even closely appropriate to that age as they were written for an older audience.

I mean I did not even let my son read Catcher in the Rye in middle school when he wanted to... as even though he was gifted, I knew he would have missed the point of
it due to his lack of maturity and would probably just have highlighted all the curse words!
--- suicideblonde

I must respectfully disagree with you there,
suicideblonde. I read "Catcher in the Rye" in junior
high at age 13, it wasn't an issue for my university-
educated parents (they probably didn't even know)
and I would hold my own children to the same
standard. By that time, we'd already been exposed
to the basics of human sexuality in our "Social Living"
classes.

No big deal, unless you are scared to death at the
thought of having to explain to a 12 or 13-year-old
why a dude like Holden Caulfield would feel
the need to hire a prostitute, or any of the other
"adult themes" of the novel.

I simply don't believe in "dumbing down" one's reading
list by telling kids "You're not ready for that yet." I just
call that a recipe for mediocrity. I don't believe in
"following the crowd" or being "just a normal kid,"
whatever that's supposed to be. It is my sincere hope
that I will not raise mediocre kids, even though many
parents are perfectly content to do so themselves.
(You see, life is easier that way.)

BTW, literature and history are poorly taught in our
public schools, in part because there is little historical
context provided for the students-----which is the job
of any good teacher.

In other words, you cannot fully appreciate the plot
or the characters in "The Great Gatsby" without
understanding more of the early 20th century growth
of industrialism; the boom in speculative financing that
would lead to the creation of many fortunes, but also
to the Great Depression; the growth of the American
consumer society and the culture of materialism that
still rages to this day, and so forth.

Now, how many public school teachers are going to
expend all the time and energy needed to lay out
that background? (Um, is that required by the union
contract? :D)

Admittedly, it's hard work trying to explain
abstract concepts to adolescents in a competent
fashion, and all the more so when the adolescents
are younger than they "ought" to be.

This, in my opinion, is exactly where many kids and
adults stumble. Precisely at a time when adults could
enhance kids' maturity by explaining things carefully
and concisely, kids are being blown off with "Oh,
you're not ready for that yet. Here, read this other
book with lots of neat pictures in it." :rolleyes:

There's got to be a better way. ;)

Remember, it isn't a parent's job to be the child's friend (that comes after the child graduates college). It's the parent's job to be the child's guide, teacher, mentor, disciplinarian, provider, chauffer, cook, launderer, nurse, confidant, protector, and motivator. Those are a parent's job. It doesn't matter if the parent makes mistakes.


I agree with everything you say except for the last line.
It matters a great deal if the parent is basically a
f***-up. If a guy runs with a biker gang, deals crank
on the side, and has a criminal rap sheet a mile-long,
he is likely not going to be a very effective "teacher,
mentor, disciplinarian" etc., etc. to his teenage son, is
he?

That is all I was trying to point out to Trish. Don't excuse
the emotional immaturity and stupidity that runs rampant
in the lives of many adults.

Look at rap/sports celebrities like Snoop Dog or Allan
Iverson. Do you really think these are mature,
competent parents?

Is Snoop Dog's kid going to get competent help from
Dad in reviewing his homework essay on Shakespeare,
or his advanced algebra assignment?? :D LOL!!

Be real here.

Okay Harrison, what I meant was, it doesn't matter if a parent makes a mistake now and then...it doesn't excuse a child to disrespect or disobey the parent. By that I mean, okay, let's say I am overwhelmed with bills, I didn't make enough money in my cleaning business last month, and I overlook my kids' doctor bills. Well, one of the kids gets sick, needs to go to the doctor, and is denied an appointment until the bills are paid. Okay, my kid could say, "God, my mom is such a loser! She didn't even pay the doctor bill and now I can't get well!" It's perfectly true, I f***ed up and now my kid has to suffer. I made a mistake! I'm human, and my mind overlooked something important. It happens when we're overwhelmed. Still, that's one mistake I made, out of a thousand I DIDN'T make, you see? So, even though I forgot to pay the doctor bill and now we have a dilemma, what about all the bills I DID pay? What about all the nights I stayed up late with my kids doing school projects? What about all the mornings I got up with them at 6:15 a.m. and got them off to school? What about all the sports practices and games I took them to? What about all the parent-teacher conferences I made? What about all the times I held them while they cried about being bullied at school, or not having the nice things so-and-so has, or feeling they didn't have enough friends, during which time I reassured them how wonderful, smart, special, and LOVED they were? So see, they don't have the right to disrespect me or look down on me for making mistakes, or use it as an excuse to cop out and go do bad things. EVERYBODY makes mistakes, and parents are not exceptions.

Now, if you have a parent who's doing crack, refusing to work to support the family, getting drunk, beating up on the kid, yeah, that's someone who needs to be whacked in the head, and the child removed from the home! That person doesn't deserve the gift of being a parent. That person isn't capable or willing to live up to the responsibility. But those of us who are willing, and make occassional mistakes because of the fact that we're human beans and not perfect, shouldn't be chastised for those. I remember a saying my friend said once about the customers whose houses she cleaned. It went: "Twice I did good and heard it never. Once I did bad and heard it ever!" That's kind of how kids are. They remember the few times parents do make mistakes, but take the thousands of things the parents did right for granted.

Thus this has been edited for when anyone denigrates my occupation with blanket statements, my claws come out!

First of all, like I had said to Desert, Catcher is NOT a college level novel, and there are really no true adult themes( as it is rite of passage) so reading it at age 13 maybe ok for most teenagers....but 11 1/2 (which my son was) is abit different. FURTHERMORE, it is the job of a parent and a teacher to see fit what is appropriate for a child of any age. This does NOT mean that some children may not be more advanced, but those are far and few and inbetween. My children were raised not only with some of the hippie values of my youth but also with the COMMON SENSE of an adult and have not turned out "mediocre" in any sense of the word. And second, I am mostly bothered by your statement about education and how literature is taught. Are you an educator or have insight into what you had written? I teach AM. lit. and have a sign in my room that reads: History Makes Literature. Thus I agree with you that these two are inseparable. In fact, my kids often tell me that they learn more about history in my class than in history itself....but this next year we are collaborating with the social studies dept on all levels to rectify that. So to answer your question : "How, how many public school teachers are going to expend all the time and energy needed to lay out that background? (Um, is that required by the union contract?)" APPARENTLY my school is.... for both union and non union members got together to draw up the curriculum which would benefit our students on their own time . And to my knowledge, most of the teachers in our county DO emphasize history in order for the students to understand novels. IN ADDITION, I am not sure if you realy now what "dumbing down" means, for it does NOT mean to NOT allow a student to read an AGE APPROPRIATE novel; it means to lower the vocabulary and to condense the plot and/or exposition of the work.

And finally, your statement : "Admittedly, it's hard work trying to explain abstract concepts to adolescents in a competent
fashion, and all the more so when the adolescents
are younger than they "ought" to be. This, in my opinion, is exactly where many kids stumble. Precisely at a time when adults could enhance their maturity by explaining things carefully
and concisely, kids are being blown off with "Oh,
you're not ready for that yet. Here, read this other
book with lots of neat pictures in it" really needs to be looked at closer. First of all, themes like sex, sex and more sex, violent rape and incest are not abstract, and even though many children have been bombarded with those via the news and movies, it is still different to look at it those issues in a classroom situation, much less having the students understand the vocabulary and author's style used in to describe what had happened. But when my students do read their novels, we DO discuss them and in depth and I answer ALL of their questions ie. when we read Edith Wharton's novel Summer, I had many students ask me "when did they have sex??? She is pregnant!" and I go to the page where it was subtly stated...no stones are left unturned in my classroom. And lastly, your statement about students getting picture books in lieu of AGE appropriate literature really was not funny nor even close to reality. As parents and educators we do have a responsibility as to what our "kids" read, and I am proud of the fact that my students read the two most banned books in America and can discuss why they are. BUT, if a parent objects to either of those, I have no problem giving the child an alternative novel. AND if my son or daughter were handed Catcher in the Rye to read in the fifth grade...there had better be an alternative book out there to give to him/her, for I know what is right for MY child.

So when your "exceptional" child of 11 wants to know about pedophiles, do you think he/she could handle reading..... ummm Lolita?

Well, having been a pretty precocious and very literature orientated person as a kid & teen myself, I can see both Harrison's and Polly's or SB's points ;)

Yes, I agree with Harrison that I am getting the impression that very often - albeit not in all cases - kids/teens are being sort of "dumbed down" by parental restrictions due to parents either not being up to - what I would consider - challenging emotional and intellectual standards. - Having lectured at universities in two countries for some years (not in the US though :p), I have to admit I found the standard of intellectual (and mathematical, but that's a different story) capabilities increasingly diminishing. I would argue there are some more cultural influences at least in part responsible for that, as my generation still had to heavily rely on "books" whereas younger generation have often abandoned books for the quicker and more visual excitement of videos and tv.

Still, it's my experience (obviously not as a parent) as a lecturer and aunt to several younger nieces and nephews that you get pretty good responses in discussing things (including literature) with kids, but even more so with teenagers, in an "adult", mature way - by illustrating your points, argue on perceptions, questioning assumptions implicitly or explicitly made ... - i.e. having an "adult" conversation with teens. And I have not found that this "overtaxes" anyone, just that the way the subject is discussed and the questions raised will differ by age. This is fine, though, as of course there are different levels of maturity - but this pretty much depends not only on the age but also on the upbringing of the "kids".

I just know that as a kid I read lots of stuff beyond my age, I had read Sartre, Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky by age 10/11 and - omg! - Nietzsche - as well as some arabic erotica at 12 - but of course I read them differently at that age then when I re-read them age 16 or 27 - this is the kind of change in maturity level, you are probably referring too ..., but this applies to ANY age (I bet my outlook on some books will differ at age 50 too ;) ). And yet, I would have resented any attempt to restrict my readings (fortunately no one ever did :D ), because in any case reading even heavy stuff raises questions, and looking for answers is a good way to grow, imo ;) .
However, I would not necessarily let some readings go "undiscussed" to actually make sure that the kid/teen in question actually recognises critical issues in the books ;) . Having significantly older literature-/education-oriented siblings, in that respect has always provided me with good discussion forums (Example: I would let my kid read Hunter S. Thompson, but I would make damn sure to talk about it - a lot! ;) ).

To sum it up, I think it's all about empowerment of kids/teenagers in their intellectual and emotional growth - in that I am with Harrison when he suggests that this seems often to be ignored or underrated by inadequate parenting ... However, I am with Polly/SB etc. in that does NOT necessarily mean a libertarian "do what you like" approach. So, when it comes down to it, it's all about communication and "guidance", not so much about authority or "keeping kids in their place" ... ;)

PS: And of course I know why I am not having kids, the task involves way too much responsibility for me at the moment ;) So, kudos to all brave parents out there who have taken that plunge ... ;)

that contemporary culture is changing the educational system and with that said, America's is still lacking compared to Western Europe. And because you are European, your attitude toward learning and education and even sex (darn Puritans!), is quite different from ours. I get foreign exchange students all the time, and they know more about our country geographically and historically than most of our student population, and that is both sad and disturbing. I once had a female student from Germany who got an A in my class ..and I mean almost straight A's (which is hard, as I am tough), and when I commented to my students that she had the highest GPA in class but yet it would count for nothing as she would have to repeat her jr. year when she returned home, my class was amazed. One student turned around and asked her why then she tired so hard....Well, she made my day by her answer: TO LEARN... Imagine that!!!! Most of our kids do not want to learn for learning's sake, but to just "get out" and onto the next step of life. And that is the part that makes my job so frustrating. We say we value education as a society, but ask any American educator and the response would probably be one of shocked amazement....for overall we do not. The add to the mix that Americans are so ego-centric and that knowing about other countries is even further down the list than knowing about their own, I often wonder what the heck is going to happen to us as a nation in a few decades. As far as "dumbing down", yes we have done that ( I mean I have noticed it in my 25 years of teaching) but by mostly lowering the expectations of our students with many teachers accepting mediocre work and giving it an A or B for fear of parental reprisals, buying textbooks and novels that have a lower vocabulary and simple style, but not necessarily the curriculum (even though that has been tinkered with in various parts of the country). We are sorely behind in math, and that is where we baby our kids. Pre-algebra in the norm for many 5th graders in Europe while our are still doing division and fractions and the like. We make them do math a certain 'step"way, when infact there are often shortcuts that are more beneficial.

Now regarding what you read as a "precocious" child, shows that you were apparently not the "norm"; plus it sounded like most of that was read on your own and not in a classroom setting, am I right? Well, we do allow our students to read mature works, for what I read in college many of our juniors and seniors are reading now and they are discussed. BUT there is a big difference between a 14 year old reading one of those novels and 17 year old. And I want to compare this to what was stated much earlier in this tread: that just because a 14 year old is fully physically developed, it does not mean she is ready for sex; conversely, just because a child may be smarter that the average child, it does not necessarliy mean he/she is emotionally ready for books that have adults themes...for he/she is NOT an adult! And I don't care if a discussion follows or not. But why? Because in my opinion, we (meaning Americans) allow our childrento lose their wonder and innocence at earlier and earlier ages and that does not sit well with me, and for what purpose? And this also, is a cultural difference between how Europeans and Americans raise their children.

BUT before I close, I want to make it clear that any child has the right to read what he/ she wants, but it may be the parent's call at home and the teacher's at school. And finally, you are right also that some works that you read at a young age were better understood when you re-read them at an older one. This is true of one of our novels, Twain's, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Some kids read it in middle school as an adventure book and then when we re-read it in 11th grade, they see it as more of a social commentary of the times. What I am saying though is that there are just some novels that were written for adults or even young adults....Joyce did not think...hmmmm I wonder if an 11 year old will get this, as he wrote Ulysseus.

To sum it up, I think it's all about empowerment of kids/teenagers in their intellectual and emotional growth - in that I am with Harrison when he suggests that this seems often to be ignored or underrated by inadequate parenting ... However, I am with Polly/SB etc. in that does NOT necessarily mean a libertarian "do what you like" approach. So, when it comes down to it, it's all about communication and "guidance", not so much about authority or "keeping kids in their place"
--- Carazy


Wow, I think you actually get what I am talking
about, Carazy!! With the exception of Desert Spring,
I don't think what I am saying fully resonates with
anyone, so I am glad to read your words. :) :D

"Empowerment" in intellectual and emotional growth
for young adults is exactly what I am talking about!!!

And no, libertarian freedom to "do what you like" is not
at all what I am talking about. No society anywhere
in the world allows teenagers to do as they please,
and I certainly would not want to live in such a place,
since it would be hell! :rolleyes:

However, I think that for some especially
conservative parents, it is about "keeping kids
in their place," especially in the area of sexuality.

For example, if I were a parent, and discovered my
14-year-old son was having sex with his 17-year-old
girlfriend, I would mainly be concerned that they were
using birth control and being monogamous. This is
what I call "controlling the risk factors."
As long as I am not about to become a grandfather
and my kid is not going to contract a disease, I am
not bothered. I view sexual intimacy as a political
issue--- an issue of human rights.

Other parents obviously don't share that view.

For these other parents, if it is a genuinely
conservative belief or a religious conviction that is at
work, I can respect that. I would only ask this: please
be consistent and do not be a hypocrite. Do not allow
the youngsters to soak up hours upon hours of highly
sexualized TV programs and movies as they grow up
in your home....

Do not let the kids have a cable-equipped TV in
their bedroom with their own VCR where they can
watch reruns of HBO's "Sex in the City" and God
knows what else (Playboy Channel maybe?)...LOL :D

By doing that, you are only setting the kids up for
failure, and being cruel to them by tantalizing them
with things that they know are terribly exciting but
are not allowed to have (sexual intimacy).

I truly feel sorry for kids living in households that are
rife with such bewildering contradictions. :rolleyes:

I hope you will also agree with me on the last couple
of points, Carazy. Certainly it seems like perfect logic
to me. :D

I am mostly bothered by your statement about education and how literature is taught. Are you an educator or have insight into what you had written? I teach AM. lit. and have a sign in my room that reads: History Makes Literature. Thus I agree with you that these two are inseparable. In fact, my kids often tell me that they learn more about history in my class than in history itself....but this next year we are collaborating with the social studies dept on all levels to rectify that...
--- suicideblonde

Whoa, there.....I definitely apologize for tossing out blanket generalizations. You have a right to be upset.

If your students tell you they learn more about history in your class than they do in their History class at the same school, obviously you are going above and beyond the call of duty in your efforts to teach American literature.

No, I am not an educator, just a fan of both literature and history who was surprised upon entering university at the dramatic difference (compared to high school) in the quality of instruction in both subjects.

When we argue a position on a forum like this, all of us are usually reflecting our own personal experiences to some degree.
I happen to have been around some lackluster English teachers, so I suppose my own frustration and cynicism came out in my post.

I do know that only a small fraction of American high school students will go directly to a four-year university, so I'm sure that even you will admit that the quality of English teaching can be very uneven in public high schools across the country.

I think that for the students who are expected to be the future factory workers, Army soldiers and janitors of America, not very much is given or expected in the way of quality English instruction, or education in general...and of course, the state in which a school is located makes a big difference. Connecticut is a loooooong way from Mississippi, geographically, culturally and financially.

Please don't take my comments as a direct attack on you, but rather on the culture of mediocrity that reigns in our public school system as a whole----not the classroom in which you teach.

Originally posted by suicideblonde
.... And I want to compare this to what was stated much earlier in this tread: that just because a 14 year old is fully physically developed, it does not mean she is ready for sex; conversely, just because a child may be smarter that the average child, it does not necessarliy mean he/she is emotionally ready for books that have adults themes...for he/she is NOT an adult! And I don't care if a discussion follows or not. But why? Because in my opinion, we (meaning Americans) allow our childrento lose their wonder and innocence at earlier and earlier ages and that does not sit well with me, and for what purpose? And this also, is a cultural difference between how Europeans and Americans raise their children.

...

Thank you for your illustration, SB. What you are writing about your frustration about teaching in the US does strike me as quite similar to what I have seen happening in the UK and increasingly also in Germany, so it's sadly not only the US heading this way, I am afraid :(

But I still think the interesting question for me is: What do we mean when we talk about the "innocence of childhood"?! And you are already suggesting the - imho - core elements of that, i.e. children's/teens capacity and will to wonder, to question and to explore, i.e. their overall curiosity and lack of FEAR in finding out new things.
Well, "fear" has a good and a bad quality:
Good - it teaches you to be careful what you do, to measure future actions against past experience, to reflect on consequences of your actions .. - I guess we can all agree that experience is a crucial factor here in assessing risks, weighing consequences and making decisions that do not necessarily damage you (of course, there is uncertainty, but let's ignore this for the moment ;) ). Due to their lack of knowledge and experience at any given stage, younger people (kids, teenages, young adults ... ) have and show often less of such "fear", which both increases their risk of getting hurt by something "new" but also by learning something new, exploring newfound capabilities, solutions, maybe even innovations ...
Bad - "Fear" is stifeling - it prevents people from doing things, asking question, exploring, it frightens people and it creates a feeling of powerlessness in the face of certain situation.

Both aspects of fear are a fact of life for everyone, I would argue - you might not call it that way, but I really think a lot of the discussion focussing on "caution", "protection" and the likes clearly reflect that.

Now, to me the innocence of children is in the "relative" lack of fear - so, to protect them, I agree that adult have to "watch over" kids/teens will to explore, to ask question to follow their curiosity. But isn't a lot of the so-called parental "protection" about instilling fear in kids - about quenching their thirst for more knowledge, for learning, experience and growth - albeit under the good intention of "protecting them from harm"?! And I think this is where I am getting the feeling that the "innocence" that people often mean to protect in kids is often confused with ignorance: "if the kids don't know, they won't do/explore/follow this road ..." Whereas to me, the innocence lies in the enthusiasm to do, explore, follow this road and that WITHOUT being stifled by fear to find out ;)

It's a pet theory of mine that a lot of what we consider adult behaviour is not much but a frightened huddling up in known and established "comfort" zones and rationalizing our staying there with "maturity", "experience", "settling down" etc. - and adding to this a nice set of materialistic "haves" to brush over the fact that adults often have gotten too "frighten" to go on and keep changing, exploring etc. If you have adults like this - and I would claim there are many of those, although there surely will be lots of exceptions too, don't mean to overgeneralize here ;) - what do these parents really teach - by example - to their kids, is "fear" ... and that's kinda sad really (well, based on my assumption that "innocence" is a driving force, not akin to "ignorance" ;) ).

Well, wanted to get into a nice discussion about to be and to have in the sense of Erich Fromm, but it's still too early morning for me, and I guess I have gone way of topic here anyway ... ;)

So, to refocus my point: We should ask ourselves what we define as the "innocence of children" that we want to protect here ... - their capacity to grow, wonder and explore without TOO much fear, or their ignorance of things WE consider too dangerous for them ;)

Originally posted by Harrison
...For example, if I were a parent, and discovered my
14-year-old son was having sex with his 17-year-old
girlfriend, I would mainly be concerned that they were
using birth control and being monogamous. This is
what I call "controlling the risk factors."
As long as I am not about to become a grandfather
and my kid is not going to contract a disease, I am
not bothered. I view sexual intimacy as a political
issue--- an issue of human rights.

Other parents obviously don't share that view.

For these other parents, if it is a genuinely
conservative belief or a religious conviction that is at
work, I can respect that. I would only ask this: please
be consistent and do not be a hypocrite. ...

I truly feel sorry for kids living in households that are
rife with such bewildering contradictions. :rolleyes:

...

Agreed ;)
Personally, I try to be consistent in what I am communicating, not only to kids but to people in general. Of course, you often might not be aware of your own agendas at times (somethings slowly develop over time), but I would not hold anyone else responsible for standards that I don't adhere too, so cases of "do as I say, don't do as I do" generally piss me off as hypocritical, and I find them invalid anyway, because it becomes a control, not a protection issue ;)

Well, wanted to get into a nice discussion about to be and to have in the sense of Erich Fromm, but it's still too early morning for me, and I guess I have gone way of topic here anyway ...
--- Carazy

(sigh) Uber-intellectual women just rock my world!! :D

Please, please don't leave the ageless site, Carazy!

Pretty please with sugar on top? :p :D :p

I love your posts.

Originally posted by Harris