Socially inept??

I've been seeing my YM for 16 months, he moved in with me 5 months ago. I'm 45, he's 32. I'm beginning to wonder whether I made a huge mistake or not, whether I'm just 'settling', or if maybe things will change. Here's the story:

I met him at a bar, he was drunk, he was very talkative (he'll get talkative when he's drinking) We hit it off great right away. Within a month, I was wondering whether he had some kind of 'social' handicap or what was going on with him, because he is VERY quiet, doesn't iniate conversation, doesn't express opinions, concerns, feelings, basically nothing. He doesn't make eye contact with people either. I spoke to his brother shortly after we started dating about this 'problem' and he told me that it's because of his childhood and how bad it was that he's like that and always has been. He also said that it takes my guy a long time to trust someone and once he does, he'll open up. I'm still waiting, 15 months later. Granted, we DO talk, but it's brief conversatons, nothing about feelings, etc. When asking him his opinion on something, he'll just shrug his shoulders. When my boys asked him if his new secretary (he's an auto mechanic with his own shop) is hot, he'll say "I don't know". Huh???

So, communication is NOT the solution to this problem. I can't get him to engage in a conversation for more than 1 sentence. When he does talk, he mumbles, and talks very quietly. I'm tired of saying "what?" all the time and making him repeat himself over and over and over.

I've asked him about his childhood, he denies any wrongdoing going on. His father is an alcoholic and he says that his Dad verbally abused his mother. They divorced when my guy was 7. My guys brother tells a different story...physical abuse, beatings, etc. When I tell my guy what his brother says, he says, "how would he know, he wasn't even born yet".

Ok, so there IS something about this guy that I apparently like, he is very kind, considerate, can and will do anything for anybody, is funny in his own way, but he has the personaility of a rock! Since he's moved in with me, I've noticed that he sleeps ALOT, is now starting to 'pick' on my kids like calling them 'retard' after everything he says to them, he acts more like a kid than they do when they are together, and it's not all fun stuff, it's picking on them physically, it's riding on the grocery cart in the store recklessly, etc. He acts like one of their buddies instead of an adult. When boating he was driving the boat and literally going way too fast for one of my kids being on the tube, it was like he was trying to make them get hurt when they fell off. Now the boys refuse to go tubing and he calls them sissies and makes fun of them. (And yes, I DID put my foot down on the speed issue)

My main concern is his social inability. He won't even speak up, or look his brother in the eyes when he talks to him. He won't talk to any of my friends, family (other than my kids), co-workers, and I'm embarrassed to be with him in public! I think he talks better with my kids than with any other person in the world.

What are your opinions on this whole situation? I'm totally confused. Do you think he'll ever change?

you said---->and I'm embarrassed to be with him in public!

Rayne said------>Uhhhh? get over the embarrassment or cut off your relationship. It's not healthy to be in an ongoing relationship that there is embarassment of your partner.
He talks better with your kids than any other person? what's wrong with that? atleast he communicates with them. As for name calling and now picking on your kids? What's up with that? Why have you not put a stop on it soon as it began? Don't let things slide thinking they will get better.
You said----> I can't get him to engage in a conversation for more than 1 sentence. When he does talk, he mumbles, and talks very quietly. I'm tired of saying "what?" all the time and making him repeat himself over and over and over.
Rayne said---> Ha Ha that reminds me of when my YM and I first started going out he to was not very talkitive 1 words sometimes nothing I would think to myself hmmmmm and seeing I am a patient person I did allow this to slide, knowing that if it was meant to be his lack of words would pick up, as he got more confy, granted I grrred to myself alot of times, it was like pulling teeth to get a conversation going, and time sure has a way of showing splendered things when one becomes patient. it's been just over 3 years, and the other day I smiled to myself and said to him, you know what hun? he said what? I said you came a long way...he said what do you mean? I go you can carry a conversation with me know lol, he looked at me rather oddly and I said ha remember when, everything was one word with you, I had to have the conversation for us both, he said Yeh, I said that's great hun, that things in your vocab has picked up, and I gave him a big hug, and praised him cause my patience was a vertue. *sigh*
However he never and does not name call my kids, and if he ever began I would of put a stop to it. I told him from the beggining of our relationship, there is things I will and don't tolarate in a relationship, Namecalling of anykind, we talked about the few otherthings. and after this I said those will make me walk, for even to allow it to slide would give the permission it's ok to do it again, and I'm a very stern person on my beliefs and things have worked out great.
Do yourself and your kids a favoure, if you think his abuse verbally wont change tell him to piss off, if you feel you have no patience for him to take the stages in becomming more into conversations, then leave, you are not doing him any favour by dragging it on...etc.... good luck....and welcome to ageless

Rayne,

Thanks! The name calling WILL Stop tonight. I have been telling myself over and over to just say something,,,, I will tonight!

As far as being embarrassed to be in public with him, Maybe I'm embarrassed FOR him, that he just doesn't/won't/can't talk to people. I have to be the 'spokesperson' whenever we go somewhere and waitresses always have to ask him at least twice what he ordered, it's just so aggravating. I want to scream 'SPEAK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOBODY IS GOING TO CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF FOR TALKING!!!"

As far as your Ym goes, did he have problems communicating with other people as well? Or was it just with you? My guy is the one word answer (if you can understand him) kinda guy. I think that I have had lots of patience but it's wearing thin. I've been single for 8 years and been thru the mill with men playing games. With this one, he's home every night, he's not a player, etc. He just won't talk!

Yes, welcome to Ageless!

I have to agree with Midnite in everything she said. I also think that maybe you moved in too early with this guy and now you are finding out so many incompatibilities, that soon one may ask what's going to be left to love other than his kindness and consideration. He's verbally abusing your children (calling a child retarded is so damaging for her self-esteem!) and possibly testing how far he can go with the physical abuse, too, but that you say you are going to solve tonight...good decision.

Has he had other relationships before you?

http://sky2.cool.ne.jp/pl/nature/rose/rose-b.gif

It's possible for him to change, but probably not without some sort of professional intervention, and not unless he's willing to work at it. And it's going to take time.

As the child of verbally/emotionally abusive alcoholic parents, I probably only escaped turning out like your guy by virtue of being born female -- I had a lot more opportunity to develop social and conversational skills. The #1 rule learned by children of alcoholics is "Don't talk, don't trust, don't feel", and it sounds like he has carried that with him into adulthood. The fact that he denies that his childhood was a problem makes it unlikely that he will attempt to deal with it on his own. I was 27 before I finally sought counseling, and then completed an outpatient treatment program for Adult Children of Alcoholics. It was an eye-opener, but I still struggle with trust and openness, especially in intimate relationships.

His behaviour with your children is probably showing you what he experienced as a child. After all, where else do we learn the parenting role besides our own family of origin? Until he learns differently, I'm sure he thinks that this is what normal fathers do: they criticize and belittle their children. And it's characteristic of people who feel weak and vulnerable to try and bolster their self-esteem by "picking on" those who are even more vulnerable.

Sleeping a lot is a classic sign of depression.

Your main problem is how to get help for a guy who doesn't accept the fact that his childhood is the blueprint for his adult behaviour. There is lots of good reading material if you think he would be receptive.

It was not just with me , he was quiet with everyone, and as far as his friends went, he was pretty much the same, not to mention a few of them were like this aswell. When we would be at family's or friends my side, I was grring inside thinking to myself, TALK TALK, and would joke by saying,,, IS JASON STILL HERE? LOOKING AROUND then look beside me and say,,,,ohhhh there you are *laughs* But then I came to relize that is him, and either I accept him for who he is, and go with the flow, and in time it will maybe change?change in talking more... Besides I also thought to myself, his qualities as a person are beautiful, he treats me with respect and love, and if I don't have the patients to trust that it will gradually get better, than why am I here? I chose to be patient, cause all his other qualities were qualities I adore in a person. & yes he is still quiet when visiting certain ppl, but that's ok, cause I know he's a swell person, and I'm not going to force anything and know alot of it has to do also with shyness. Het atleast they won'at talk much when you want QUIETNESS HAHA.
I know sweets patience can wear thin, but if you tuely belive he's the one for you, and he you, then I say bite the bullet and wear the patience longer, My YM took a long time, and as staed it has been over 3 years, and it never happened even in a year or more, gradually it gets more, they can actualy start to surprise you, and I can tell you it makes the heart warm when you see the steps their going through.
Yeh put a stop to it tonight.(name calling that is) ..NO LANDSLIDING NO MORE, ABUSE OF ANYKIND SHOULD NEVER BE TOLLERATED you allowed it to slide a few times, so I don't know, it does damage to ppl, Brusies heal but mental abuse scares the soul.....and sleeping alot either is from drug use, that is not known about, or depression, seek help outside if your wanting this relationship, otherwise, like I said END IT! there are plenty of fish in the sea...TUNA? lol

Maria,

He claims that he's had girlfriends, and one lasted 2 years, about 10 years ago. He also said that when things ended with her, she told him that he had the personality of a rock! How ironic!

I guess I keep thinking/hoping that he's going to crawl out from under that wall that he's got himself surrounded with any day now but often wonder if maybe professional help may be needed. I know he'll probably never go for that!

I have never met ANYBODY that has such a problem communicating and I've met/dealt with alot of people!

:confused: :confused: Here's my question: For almost a year you knew this guy was like that and you still had him move in with you??? What were you thinking??? :confused: :confused:

Savannah!

I think you've hit the nail on the head with everything you've said. I am willing to read anything that you could possibly recommend and leave it laying around for him to 'look at' (as he's always reading/picking up my books/magazines to see what it is that I'm reading)

I'd really like to see this work out but he has no insurance to cover any proffessional help and like you said, since he denies his childhood, he won't be receptive.

I'd really like to smack his mother for letting him get to be 32 years old and still being like this. She supposedly wasn't an alcoholic, just the Dad.

Any recommendations on good reading? :D

I remember starting out with Suzanne Somers's autobiography (which I can't find at the moment!), I think it's called "Keeping Secrets".

One of the best authors is Janet Geringer Woititz. Try "Adult Children of Alcoholics" and "Life Skills for Adult Children" (co-authored with Alan Garner). Woititz writes at a very basic, understandable level.

You can also try "Recovery: A Guide for Adult Children of Alcoholics" by Herbert L. Gravitz and Julie D. Bowden.

All of the above are available in nice economical paperback form!

Woititz also has a website at

http://www.drjan.com/

Most urban centres will have a 12-step group for ACOA self-help, but this route doesn't appeal to everyone (unfortunately, it appeals least to individuals who aren't very communicative).

My Robin is somewhat like your ym, Julz, in that he doesn't "jump right in" on a conversation like I do when we're out with other people. He either sits back and observes, or goes and plays pool. In the beginning, I was kind of uncomfortable with that, especially because he was a chatterbox with me. It was kind of frustrating for me, being an extrovert, but in the end we complimented eachother.

My ym had a horrible childhood too. His was similar to your ym's. He slept a lot too, when we were first together. I think it was a sign of depression. Here we are, 4 years later, and he has really come out of his shell! He works a lot, interacts more with his friends and mine, is a lot more interactive with my kids, and just really willing to be there for anything and everything. He too, was a diamond in the rough. I was very patient with him, because all along, I knew that. The only thing he didn't do is call my kids names, because I came across as a mother bear from the get-go. He knew better than to hurt my kids in any way, physically or emotionally. He knew he'd be out the door! He still tells me I'm too "soft" on them (you'll get that with guys who grew up in Hell) and I have, the past two years, allowed him to be a part of the disciplinary process with them (because they were ready for it, he was ready for it, and frankly, not all of his ideas of parenting were bad). He is, after all, a part of this family and has a say in things, it's only fair. We discuss the kids behind closed doors, and present a united front. If he says my son is grounded for doing something, I don't interfere. If I say the kids can't so such-and-such, he doesn't interfere. We made ground rules and we stuck to them. The kids thrive because of it!

Robin acted a bit immature at times in the beginning too. He was in the bedroom playing video games with my son and his friends when I really needed help with stuff. He would say "yes" to anything a telemarketer wanted to sell! He left the lawnmower out in the rain for months, and of course it was ruined. He still drives like a maniac! But you know what? He's the sweetest, kindest, SEXIEST, most honest, most trustworthy, most compatible guy I ever met! We are deeply in love and very happy. It's an iffy thing with a guy from an abusive home, but Robin didn't want to be like his parents, he vowed to be the opposite, which is why, in part, he sought out the likes of me, but he also metamorphisised into a man I knew he was capable of being, just by being around someone who loved him unconditionally and excepted him for who he was.

I don't think, by the way, counseling would be a bad idea for your ym, but if he can't afford it, maybe his talking about issues amongst friends and family members would help. That's what Robin has done since being with me.

Good luck.

Any man who calls my kid retard kidding or not is out the door, no questions asked.

It is interesting to me that you did not address Peachy51. See, I think the person that needs counseling is you, dear heart. You met a man who was DRUNK, when you met him. Continued to see him, let him move inwith you KNOWING he had problems. He calls your kids 'retards' and you want to HELP HIM. Please don't be that desparate for companionship. Ask your kids what they want. I bet they would love to see this loser gone. You have children. You do not need a guy to fix or help. Please please please get counseling & find out why you got yourself into this mess. How much does he drink now? Does he smoke grass?Don't beat up on yourself... we have all taken someone that we later regreted into our lives. But you owe yourself and your children (especially) much more than this person is giving you & your kids. :(

now starting to 'pick' on my kids like calling them 'retard' after everything he says to them, he acts more like a kid than they do when they are together, and it's not all fun stuff, it's picking on them physically, it's riding on the grocery cart in the store recklessly, etc. He acts like one of their buddies instead of an adult. When boating he was driving the boat and literally going way too fast for one of my kids being on the tube, it was like he was trying to make them get hurt when they fell off. Now the boys refuse to go tubing and he calls them sissies and makes fun of them. (And yes, I DID put my foot down on the speed issue)

Then you say......My main concern is his social inability.

No no no..... PLEASE..... get this guy out before he abuses, sexually or otherwise, the kids... please....

Quote: "I'd really like to smack his mother for letting him get to be 32 years old and still being like this. She supposedly wasn't an alcoholic, just the Dad."

My son turned 25 last week. When he was 10 or 11 years old it was evident he had a "problem". Since then my life, and that of his sister, has been defined by his problem.

School guidance counselors; doctors; psychiatrists; psychologists; social workers; group homes; family support groups; his suicide attempts; three forced hospitalizations; hundreds of hours of time taken off work to attend his evaluations and appointments; hundreds of dollars on medication; hundreds of hours of my life in total despair and anguish; hundreds of hours of "it's all my fault", and "if only I had, or I hadn't".

What do you know about what his mother has had to deal with? Do you have any idea what her life was like living with an alcoholic and trying to raise a family at the same time?

Gillian

How is your son doing today Gillian?

Paris

Hi Paris,

That is so kind of you to ask. It may sound really silly, but that is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me all weekend. Because this is someone elses thread, I'll send you a PM if that's okay.

Gillian

Sure...

Paris

Wow! With the power outage and being busy, etc, I was just able to get back onto this site and was rudely awakened by what I've read!

when I left off, I was thinking that maybe he was fixable and I was going to get books etc, but now that I've read more of your responses, I'm not so sure.

Peachy:
What was I thinking? I was thinking that once he got more comfortable with me that he'd open up and talk more. It wasn't until AFTER he moved in with me that the stuff with my kids started.

Answers to Other questions that were asked:

He only drinks when him and I go out once every 2 weeks. He'll have maybe 3 beers and on occasion, he'll over-drink, not often though. As far as I know, he's not doing drugs or smoking pot, unless he does it at work, but that's highly unlikely. He's basically with me and in my sight any other time.

Gillian:

I didn't mean to offend you (or any other mother that has a 'problem' child). It was just an expression. My thoughts on that were that his brother never mentioned any kind of therapy, or counseling, etc. so maybe his mother DID try to 'fix' him, I don't know for sure. If she did, it didn't work. Maybe I need to talk to HER to find out the 'truth' about his childhood.

Now that I've had a variety of responses from different outlooks, and unbiased people, I'm not sure what to do! That's basically why I came to this site, looking for input. Maybe I am co-dependent. Maybe I do need to get help. I do know that our relationship is crumbling fast and I'm not so sure that I really want to 'fix' it anymore.

Julz

Can a man have a go at giving a point of view on this ? You might not like this but I always like to take a different point of view on purpose, not to wind people up but just to try and see another side. So I apologise to all now. When I read your original post I thought you sounded like a mother discussing a naughty child, does he not sit up straight at the table and eat all his greens ?. And the replies and comments that have come afterwards also sound like women agreeing and pointing out the bad habits that their children have, his comment to your children about them being a "retards" while being wrong and not in anyone condoned seems to have been blown up into child abuse and you should get away from him fast before he starts anything sexual. And driving fast is putting your child in danger, however if you thought any of those things where suspicious I suspect you wouldn't even be posting on here and have made your own mind up. I suspect they are things being blown way out of proportion and not as bad as is being made out to be, you don't need people on here to help you with any of them answers, if you do then you need to take a long hard look at yourself. On the other hand he sounds like a sulky teenager who is treating you like his mother rather than his partner.
When he has had a few drinks you say he can talk away fine, drink makes him more relaxed and more at ease and open that's why, so if he doesn't feel like that when you are alone together then why ?. That would be my main concern, I know people who wouldn't say boo to a goose in public but when with friends they never shut up or can be quite funny.
You say that he doesn't express opinions, concerns, feelings...this from a self employed mechanic with a secretary running his own business ?, I wonder how he even got where he was with a door mouse attitude like that, or maybe he isn't like that really and underneath he does have opinions feelings concerns and he can assert them when he wants to. NO-ONE in business gets anywhere without having some assertiveness or ability to express there opinion.
I think communication is THE solution to the problem but weather YOU can get him to communicate is the real problem, There is a real person in there somewhere and just because he doesn't say things doesn't mean he doesn't feel them, he actually sounds depressed, interesting he can talk better to your kids than you, why ? Is he reaching that age where he wishes he was young again and trying to relive his youth, Maybe they don't judge him the same way as you do or talk to him like you do, do you think that when you talk to him you maybe make him feel small ?. (sorry I'm getting to personal).
I cant think of a worse way of building up his self esteem or getting him to be open with you than discussing it with his brother or referring to his problem as his "social inability" and if you are embarrassed to be with him in public, then I think it might be understandable that he would be embarrassed that your embarrassed to be in public with him.
If he had a problem about something you did, how would you feel if he said "well your sister said...."
On the other hand from your point of view, you ain`t his mother, you are with him for companionship and sharing things, it cant be a one sided partnership and if he cant open up to you then I can't see the point, one thing is being like that with strangers or others but not with you if you cant even talk properly together when alone then why are you together ?. What is it that he sees in you ?. Why does he want to be with you ?.
Sadly one of the things I have noticed about relationships with men and woman are that if a man doesn't like something about a woman, he splits with here and goes, but when woman finds something they don't like about a man, they try changing it. That I think is actually the better of the two options but only if its something small and something that can be changed. Unfortunately the thing that most woman try and change tends to be a mans personality, The very thing that they are. Maybe he's just a sulky shy introvert who can't cope with a serious open relationship with a woman, maybe he's just a shy introvert guy who needs someone to be understanding and help him out of his shell Your main concern shouldn't be his social inability it should be his inability to be social and open with you alone, if he can't do that your doomed. Forget how he reacts to everyone else, he needs to be able to talk to you first. I would be asking myself why he is like that with me.
Sorry if this all sounds a bit like a telling off, but it was meant to sound like that, if you re-read what I have said, it could have been worded better and a little less insulting, I just thought you might understand it better if I wrote back with the same tone as yours.
Its all drivel I write actually so I wouldn't take much notice of me, I'm sure I wrote something in there that was interesting or of use, I don't know what it was mind you.
Re-read your own letter as if it was from someone else and I think you might have the answer
Especially the bit concerning your kids !!!!!!!!
Ladies the perfect man doesn't excises I'm sorry to break this to you but i`m afraid it`s a fact, when picking one you will have to accept some of our faults, if there are to many of them or you don't like the ones that are left after you have tried fixing all the others then move on and get another guy, we ain`t robots. Get rid of the guy he's to quiet and wont talk, it`s a crime and he should be locked up and sentenced to 20 years, call his brother as the first witness and then move onto someone not as caring or considerate who can actually talk out loud, I'm still trying to work out who would be better off, you or him . Good luck. Anyway from your later post I think you really like him and you know he`s not that bad. You just need to accept he`s quiet and he needs to accept he can be a little louder when he`s with you. everyone else can go take a running jump they don`t matter

wow that was a long one......sorry i was bored

Originally posted by Nessa
well here is my quarter's worth....


verbal abuse is abuse. whether or not it will escalate to physical or sexual abuse is irrelevant. it's abuse. and children especially need to be protected from it as their egos and self-esteeem are still so fragile.

I agree and I'm not questioning whether it is or isn't, I'm questioning whether what the poster said was being taken out of context or not, if she sees it like you are (and she was the one there not you or i) I can't see why she is asking for our opinions at all and why the hell she hasn't already kicked him out, Peachy asked the question "for almost a year you knew this guy was like this and you still moved in with him ?" Has she overstated and overblown an off the cuff remark that was wrong and not acceptable but just needs to be addressed and over exaggerated an event that wasn't as bad as was made out to be, for her children's sake I hope that is so. I'm not defending the guy at all I'm defending or castigating the original poster. And as for the comment about his personality change when he drinks, EVERYONE'S personality changes when they drink, it's a drug, that's what it does, as far as I can read from her post it makes him talkative, have you ever had a drink ?, what does it make you do ? She said she met him when he was drunk, she didn't say he drank all the time. It seems that from her post all the woman have made him out to be a future wife and child beater who will abuse her kids and has mood swings when he drinks and he's an alcoholic.
If that's him then yes get out now what are you asking us for ?, but I got the impression her question was about a guy who wouldn't open up and talk and she saw him as too quiet and shy, and she doesn't actually know anything about this so called abusive past, other than the conversation she is having with a mysterious brother who is so sane that nothing that ever happened to his brother has effected him. Even though her ym is loving kind caring etc etc. Who`s opinion do you take more notice of, your partner or a member of his family ?. if his brother told you something about your partner you didn`t know and your partner said it wasn`t true, who would you believe ?.
Like is say, I actually agree with you, I just maybe read a completely different posting to you, and although the abusive line did ring alarm bells, I thought she sounded intelligent and caring enough to know weather it was serious enough to get rid of or keep him on, and she has said she has put a stop to it. he was the one who sounded like a mouse, she didn't come across to me like she would take any crap from him, especial not for her kids or did I read it wrong ?. I just don't seem to understand why when someone posts a question on here about relationships, only woman seem to give a serious reply, I was just attempting to put another side that's all, I thought some of the replies where a bit patronising to her and some from a high and mighty point of view as if she doesn't know how to protect her own kids and cant see what is in front of her (that should wind them up), I just don't read that type of person, maybe it's me who is blind, I've never been any good at judging people. Sorry if I have offended, i`ll try steer clear of posting my views in future unless I think them through properly first

mickhud:

I appreciate your comments even if nobody else does!
but I got the impression her question was about a guy who wouldn't open up and talk and she saw him as too quiet and shy,

You are correct!

he was the one who sounded like a mouse, she didn't come across to me like she would take any crap from him, especial not for her kids or did I read it wrong ?.

You read that correctly! I guess a lot of what I said got misinterpreted. I was trying to say that he acts just like a kid himself, like he is my children's BUDDY, and he acts like a 14-15 year old. Calling them names, rough housing with them, etc. I don't see it as intended abuse, just that he doesn't know how to draw the line between "being an adult role model' or being the kids 'best friend'.

as if she doesn't know how to protect her own kids and cant see what is in front of her (that should wind them up), I just don't read that type of person, maybe it's me who is blind

You are not blind. I do know how to protect my kids and I don't see this as abusive. It's 3 kids interacting with each other only the 3rd 'kid' is my YM. I constantly need to 'correct' all THREE of them!


When he has had a few drinks you say he can talk away fine, drink makes him more relaxed and more at ease and open that's why, so if he doesn't feel like that when you are alone together then why ?. That would be my main concern

That IS my main concern! And you mentioned about his secretary and being successful in business. That's true, but I've seen him interact with his customers. How THEY ever understand/hear him when he's talking is beyond me. No eye contact, mumbling, etc. His secretary answers the phone, and that is ALL she does. He will not ask her to do anything else, period. Right now he's in a slump, being slow at work and he can barely afford to pay her, but he won't tell her not to come in or take the rest of the day off. Her job there was basically created because the owner of the bar that we frequent has a daughter on college break and needed a job. So he asked my YM if he needed any help, and he shrugged his shoulders, and said 'maybe someone to answer the phone" and the next thing I knew, she started showing up for work! He can't say no to anybody! He refuses to hurt anyones feelings, will go totally out of his way for anybody, he gets walked all over by his family and friends. It's pathetic.



Maybe he's just a sulky shy introvert who can't cope with a serious open relationship with a woman, maybe he's just a shy introvert guy who needs someone to be understanding and help him out of his shell

That's the big question here. How long is long enough? Is he fixable?



Sorry if I have offended, i`ll try steer clear of posting my views in future unless I think them through properly first

I like your point of views, so don't quit posting them!

Thanks!

Me again.

Like Mick, I didn't read a Child Battering Monster in your posts, I thought I saw a quiet, socially hesitant man with very low self-esteem. Who probably thinks part of his role in your kids' lives is to do all the Fun Guy Things that mum is too cautious to do with them, and maybe doesn't foresee all the potential dangers.

And I'm real glad that none of the guys I've been involved with in the past chucked me "out the door" because I wasn't the perfect socially-adept g/f.

That's the big question here. How long is long enough? Is he fixable?

There's no easy answer, I'm afraid. Other than, yes, he's "fixable". We're not talking about a major overhaul here, just some fine tuning. And it's not something that happens overnight, but it will get better progressively. "Long enough" is entirely your decision, based on his openness to changing and to doing the work.

Mick... please don't quit posting your opinons. Your post was very thoughtful and well put. When you disagreed with someone (me probably :) ) you did in way that was not hateful or belittling. I think it is good to have a guy's take on something.

Now all that being said... :D of course, I have to add my 2 cents.

I did not say the guy is a child molester... I am saying that she needs to be VERY aware that it can happen. I don't know the stats on boys but 1 in 3 females have been molested. The stats for boyfriends and step-fathers is not good. I don't recommend that she throw him to the curb because of something that MIGHT happen. But she needs to watching the situation because that is something that could happen.

As far as her being an assertive Mom... no she's not. She did not tell him immediately to quit calling her kids "retards". So I don't think she knows where to draw the line on how he can treat her children. She certainly a good Mom and teachable but this is new territory for her.

Your statement that EVERYONE'S personality changes when they drink, is not true. I don't know where you got that but the people that I know do not have drastic personality changes... nor do they get drunk.

I believe that her main focus should be on the effect he is having on the children. If she were to ask them, should he stay or should he go, what would THEY say? She hasn't answered this question yet.

When someone puts down children, it is to make themselves feel more powerful and esteemed. Because this guy has problems with driving fast, personality changes when drinking, and not dealing with her children in an adult manner, I think she should move him out until she knows more about how she really feels about him.

I don't agree that she should move him out until she figures things out. Here's why:

He's been there for a year (is that correct?) and the kids have gotten used to him being a part of their household and family. Especially with school starting, you don't want major changes in the household that will dramatically effect the kids (and it would if he moved out). If he doesn't pose a threat physically or emotionally to the kids, I think he should stay and he and Julz should try to work things out. BTW, Julz, did you read my other two posts about this situation? I was only asking because my sitiuation had some similarities to yours.

Every relationship, ESPECIALLY one with kids, needs fine-tuning. Did you know that EIGHTY-PERCENT of all step-families fail in the first two years? If you get past the first two years, you're pretty much home-free. The reason is there is so much adjusting that everyone has to do. The role of stepfather is fuzzy at best during this adjustment period. Julz, I wanted to tell you also that Robin was very laid back the first year and a half of our living together. He knew he couldn't move into the stepfather role too fast, or the kids would end up resenting him and the acceptance of his authority would be a constant battle. Instead, he kind of acted like a kid with my kids too, for the first year and a half. He wrestled with them, played video games, took them places, went swimming with them, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. They're getting to know eachother and that can't be rushed.

There will come a point in your relationship where you two will really FEEL like husband and wife, trials and tribulations will put you there. You will weather so many storms together, and finally realize what a team you are. At that point, your ym will start feeling more like a father to the kids, and the kids will be ready for it. Kids CRAVE boundaries and discipline (when it's effective, not abusive). A man is better at setting and keeping boundaries (at least that's my experience, I'm a real marshmallow). You'd be surprised at how easily your kids will accept your ym's authority in another six months to a year. He has to ease into that role, and you two have to agree on discipline and rules in private, then present a united front. Your kids may argue and complain from time to time, trying to get out of a punishment for not doing their homework or cleaning their rooms, for example, but deep down, they'll feel safe and secure having those boundaries and knowing you two care enough to enforce them. This will enable your kids to move forward and be more successful in their endeavors.

One more thing: Robin is a complete pushover when it comes to other people! He STILL is! It never ceases to amaze me. Like I said before, a telemarketer could sell him a pile of dung over the phone! He's SPINELESS when it comes to saying "no", even if it has a negative affect on us (usually financially). This is just something that has to be worked on. Coincidentally, Robin's brother is the same way according to his fiance. She's a "take charge" kind of gal anyway, and pretty much keeps things in order. But he's a hard worker, and a good person, and he loves her to death, so I see them as being together always.

Just ONE more thing: :D Tell him to stop calling your kids names, and tell him why you want him to stop. He'll probably be a little defensive about it, and say something like, "Oh, that doesn't hurt them!" to which you should say, "I don't care if you think it's hurtful or not, I'm not going to have my kids spoken to that way. You need to stop."

Originally posted by yellowrose


Your statement that "everyones personality changes when they drink" is not true. I don't know where you got that but the people that I know do not have drastic personality changes... nor do they get drunk.


Correct it's not true your right I must admit i think i worded that incorrectly, but even in moderation it can make you feel a different way, happy hopefully, or more relaxed, open and chatty. And that's excluding all the real downsides of binge drinkers like aggression and loudmouth over the top violent behaviour etc. etc...
I'm beginning to question my own drinking now, I don't drink often or a lot (i don't need to I'm the sort who would fall over after three) but It always effects me in some way or other, even if it just makes me go to the toilet..(lol) a glass of wine during a meal makes me feel differently to a glass of water during a meal. Is it me ?, I think I may start a new thread here.......... .
Unless julz can think of anything else I'm outta here on this thread also, I seem to be digging myself into a hole all the time, time to check out the serious questions in the sexually speaking section, someone may need my advice on orgasms (LOL)
Final note though Julz.... is he fixable ?. Does he know or care that you think he's broken ?. Ask him, if the answer is no then the reply is no, you can't fix anyone unless they accept they are broken, but if he accepts he has a problem, then let him prove it by seeing someone about it, you may have a chance then, the one thing that has been touched on by POLLY that I hadn't considered and not many people have taken into account has been his role as a sort of stepfather, I think a whole new thread could be started concerning this subject, with the children of older woman having to deal with their new partner and vice versa. If it was the other way round how would you cope and how would you try and make friends with his children ?. Try be one of them ? Try and become a friend ? Or act like an adult who is trying to take the place of one of their parents ?. Has this subject already been discussed before ? If it has someone let me know i`d be interested in reading it, if not it I will start a thread and see what people think. My relationship with an ow didn't involve children but thinking about it she could have had some and they might not have been that much younger than me either, not sure how I would have handled that. Anyway it's something else to think about. let us know what happens

I just wanted to answer to Mick, that a LOT of ow have children, so this situation isn't unique in that respect. We have discussed it quite a few times on here, but it seems that a lot of the women at this site have kids who are grown, so it's not as big of an issue.

For some of us here, it's a REALLY big issue. I told Robin the first night we met, that my kids were my first priority, and always would be. That was his opportunity to bail if he wanted to. I should mention though, in all fairness, that Robin has a child of his own. His child is now 7. We have been in a bitter custody battle with the mother for two years, and lost on some ridiculous technicalities, and she has made it difficult to see him because of having to deal with her. So I think Robin has more of a resolve to do right by my kids, to prove himself a worthy father, because he still wants to get a private investigator after her and get custody of his son. However, Robin did do things that I didn't like when it came to my kids, in the beginning, and we had to work that stuff out. He didn't call them "retards", but he called them "lazy" and "irresponsible" (which they probably deserved). I just didn't like the name-calling at all...address the BEHAVIOR, not the child. That was my thing. Anyway, he's come a long way, as have we all, and things are very harmonious now. It CAN be done, it just takes the two people in the relationship willing to both give 110% and never lose sight of their goals.

Was watching Dr. Phil last night and the perfect opportunity came up for me to ask my YM "what HIS defining moment in his life" was. He didn't understand my question so I just flat out said:
"What happened in your life that made you NOT talk to anybody, and not make eye contact with people" His answer was "Everybody jacked me around" I tried to get him to elaborate more by asking who, how, and why do you say that, but he would just answer me with 'everybody did" and that was all he said! He wouldn't answer any of my questions.

And throughout the whole Dr Phil show he was making comments such as "all these people should just be shot and quit taking up my time"...things like that. As IF he's so perfect!! I explained that they are looking for HELP for problems that they have.

I don't know what else to do with this guy. I used to think that maybe he had a form of autism called Aspergers Syndrome cuz he fits everything they describe as symptoms. But everything they talk about applies to children. I haven't found anything about adults that may have it or if they had it all along and nobody knew thusfore no treatment was given.

I'm ready to just let the war begin with him and quit tiptoeing around him as if he's some delicate little flower that I'm going to stomp on if I 'insult' him. I'm going to start DEMANDING that he speak the fu*k up, look at me (and others) when he's talking, and I'm going to do it everytime I can't hear him or understand him, no matter where we are or who we're with.

I'm also leaving for 10 days of vacation (alone) and I'll tell him that he needs to figure out what his problem is either alone or with professional help or else we're done.

And if that doesn't work... well, then I'm done.

Doesn't the saying go that you can't CHANGE people unless they want to change themselves?

My birthday was just recently and I got no card, no cake, no present, no flowers, no happy birthday........... NOTHING. (even AFTER I gave him the headsup that it was my birthday that day) No excuses for him not knowing, etc. All he said three days later was that I don't have to get him anything for his birthday and that he didn't know what to get me.

My daughter sent me a 'I love you and miss you card" and he just couldn't understand WHY she would mail me a card for no reason. Just went right over his head even after I explained to him that is what people do when they care about each other. Just little things like that. He says "you're going to see her next week, and she could of just told you that on the phone". Clueless!!! I just looked at him and said "you just don't get it, do you?"

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
:mad:

Julz - - -

Ask Nessa about Aspergers. She can tell you about it. But I would think if someone had it as a child, they would still have it as an adult??? :confused:

Nessa!!!!! I knew you could help!!!!:)

Yep:D

Originally posted by Julz

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
:mad:

Hello it's me again the one with the big mouth, bored again and doing my usual bit of sticking my two cents in, I am useless at these things really and have no idea why I think I have anything to offer on these postings so I hope I don't come across to people like a over opinionated know all, it's just ramblings that I type while I wait for the dinner to cook so don't take no notice of me people I am fully aware I have no idea. After you have given more info and written updates I thought id write what I thought when reading your messages, it has changed slightly from earlier but still trying to find a side you may not have considered. For starters If you didn't speak to him would he notice ?. Would you sit in silence ?. Maybe its time to stop talking to him about him and start talking to him about you, the next time he mentions people jacking him around why not say "I know what you mean I feel the same way about you" and if he doesn't react don't be surprised I'm not going to say that he's enjoying or expecting the attention you are giving but it does seem that you are the one having to react and you are the one chasing and you are the one trying to do everything, he's just sitting back and letting it all happen around him,
When I was a teenager I had the usual adolescent problems with my father, one of the things he used to do that annoyed me no end was to remind me constantly about things I knew full well about. (bad example follows) If I made a mug of coffee, he would be telling me before I even started making it to wash the mug up afterwards, during drinking it he would also mention it needed washing afterwards, the second I had finished drinking he'd say "don't forget" and if it wasn't washed within 5 mins of finishing he would take it away and wash it himself tutting and saying that I never listen.. In the end as a pathetic teenager I reached a point where I never bothered to remember certain things he said say me because I knew he would remind me anyway and in some cases do them for me in the end. At the time In my eyes he obviously thought I was so useless I wasn't capable of remembering things and that was why he kept on and on telling me over and over the same things, and so we went round in circles, he always saw me as someone who couldn't remember or be bothered to do things, me not bothering to remember or do things because he would remind me or do them himself. So Stop Now, and I don't mean just for his sake either, tell him that its time he made an effort, that he should show interest in you, talk up to you and play the partner, Don't DEMAND anything !. Why should you ? If you need to demand someone pays you attention it's not worth having and they don't want to give it to you. When he talks If you don't hear it ignore him, if it's important he'll say it again and especially if he thinks you haven't heard him I bet because he talks quietly , when he does speak you pay special attention to him and look directly at him, and he doesn't have to speak over anyone because he's so quiet, unless you shut up and listen to what he's saying you don't hear it, so you shut up. The opposite of shouting people can get your undivided attention sometimes by whispering quietly. Maybe he's not as daft as he seems. make sure he understands what you want, tell him one last time and then stick to it, stop making an effort, don't get upset and annoyed and attempt to prompt him with anything, if nothing happens then you know that it's a waste of time, won't work and he doesn't care, If that happens then when you do walk away and call it a day, you will at least not beat yourself up afterwards about weather you tried or not, and that he was the one that actually ended it not you, your conscience is clear. It's time to stop On the subject of if he has an illness, you are again jumping to conclusions and finding excuses for him your not a doctor or psychiatrist (are you ?) and it's not for you to diagnose what he has if anything, I think that's sounds like you are clutching at straws I'm sure some woman would be happy if there was an illness called "Jerkamaleius"-an serious illness that men can get from time to time, they can't help it and they really love you and care for you, they are just ill that's all and you should feel sorry for them and look after the poor souls !!. The truth is it doesn't exist and it's probably just a Jerk . As I say, Time to Stop. time for you to hand it over to him, and time for you to sit back. if he won't listen, does nothing or can't understand then you've done your best, this isn't a war and you won't be the loser if you call it a day, he's not a machine to be fixed so stop acting like this is some sort of project and you are getting frustrated that and experiment you keep running always fails .and this isn't a task that you should feel a failure for if you don't succeed. This is your life and you can't spend the rest of it running someone else's.
Maybe his biggest problem is that after people jerking him round in the past he's now made sure he surrounds himself with people who will dance to his tune, and he can be the one doing the jerking

Mikhud for a useless rambling message.... IT WAS GREAT. WOW!!! You are smart, sounds like behavior modification but what the hey. I bet you would be or are a great parent.

mickhud,

For starters If you didn't speak to him would he notice ?. Would you sit in silence ?.

Does he notice? I don't know. He doesn't say. Do we sit in silence? WAY TO OFTEN! I always initiate conversation. For about the last month, I have been very silent towards him. He'll just go to sleep.

So Stop Now, and I don't mean just for his sake either, tell him that its time he made an effort, that he should show interest in you, talk up to you and play the partner,

That's what I guess I was saying in my "Update" post.

When he talks If you don't hear it ignore him, if it's important he'll say it again

I'll try that first and see how it goes before I embarass him by yelling at him to speak up.

Your whole post, once again, makes perfect sense! Maybe I am just trying to make some kind of 'medical' excuse for him. (I'm not a doctor, but I am a paramedic) It IS time that I stop making excuses...he IS replaceable! And I'm tired of being aggravated all the time.

:D

Originally posted by swanqueen
I bet you would be or are a great parent.
I'm sure I would be a great parent over the Internet and in writing without any actual physical contact and living it day to day.

Its really easy dishing out advice to others like this

trouble is kids are terrible at reading.

Next time your children are being a pain try writing down "please behave yourself your being very noisey and it`s not fair to others" on a piece of paper and give it to them, It doesn't seem to work on 5 year olds for some reason. :D :D :D

Hey Julz, again, I can relate, but Robin isn't totally like that. However, his family never really celebrated birthdays. They weren't Jehovah's Witnesses or anything, they just didn't bother celebrating them. The parents were strange. His mother was kind of self-absorbed, and his dad was an alcoholic/rage-aholic, so they didn't have "Happy Birthdays" or happy anything. Robin, the first year we were together, couldn't understand why I made such a big deal out of my kids' birthdays, but I kept telling him, "I don't care how YOU grew up. I don't want my kids' lives to be like that. I want their childhoods to be happy and carefree, and if you can't handle it, then this won't work out! My kids come first!"

Fast forward to today: Robin is very much a part of birthdays, including my own. I have always made a big deal about his, BTW, so maybe he feels guilty if he doesn't do something for me, but that's okay, if guilt is a motivator, so be it! Anyway, we recently threw a birthday bash for my 11-year-old daughter which was really great. Robin didn't hang around the whole time because screaming, giggling girls eventually drives him insane, and I understand that, but he did help with financing the party, the preparations, and clean-up afterwards. The girls all spent the night too, and didn't get to sleep until 4 a.m. He wasn't happy about that, but at least he didn't b!tch about it. :)

I don't mean to keep pushing you to stay with this guy. If he's not making you happy, then by all means, leave. I guess I just see some of Robin and me in our early days when I read your posts, and I'm just trying to help you to see all angles. :)

Dear Julz,

You honestly can't make someone into something you want them to be rather than what/who they are already. They have to do that.

You can't "fix" anybody - it's not your responsibility, it's their responsibility.

You can't change anybody. The only person you will ever be able to change is yourself.

You can't alter anbody's reaction(s) towards your action(s). You can only change your reaction(s) towards their action(s).

Why are you yelling at this person? How very sad.

Gillian

Very true, Gillian. I always told my daughter, "You'd better find a man you love just like he is, or that you can tolerate everything he does, because you will not change him."

Originally posted by Julz
Do we sit in silence? WAY TO OFTEN! I always initiate conversation.

On another note I work with a woman who is the opposite & talks constantly, she never ever shuts up, it's almost as if she hates silence in anyway shape or form, even when she isn't talking to me she is describing what she is doing "now then where is my pen ?, there it is, so that's 20% off that and then... now I'm sure I left that file over here somewhere yes here it is......... i must remember to ring Kathleen, what's that mark on the wall ?. I think i`ll make a coffee after I do this...... on & on & on...." From the moment she enters the room till she goes home at night. Sometimes when people are content with each other they don't have to speak all the time, a look or an expression says it all, I have often thought that she should shut up for a short time and feel relieved when she leaves the office for a bit just for some piece, I have discussed it with here in fun but it's in her nature, it's something she does and I can't see her changing, just like some people can be calm, she can create a sense of chaos by doing nothing other than enter a room, she's a nice enough person its just her personality, there isn't anything wrong with her its just her way, and I have to accept that.
She thinks I am sometimes rude because I want a bit of silence so I can concentrate for at least 10mins. However 10 mins of silence to her seems like we are not talking and have fallen out, if I am silent for that long she actually asks if there is something wrong ?.
Maybe what you see as not talking and silent he sees as being content.