The Heifer Thing

This is probably going to be rambling, I tend to write like I talk, thinking as I go.
I have a real problem with judgementalism, if that's even a word.
I have always tried to live my life following the "don't judge someone till you've walked a mile in his shoes" mentality. Not always successfully, but I try. I also try to remain aware that life is a chain, and the things I do to others will affect how they feel, which will affect how they treat others, etc.
The point being, that if you are going to judge others mostly on appearance, you're probably letting that affect how you treat them, and interact with them, and possibly causing harm. In medicine, the one thing you're taught is above all else do no harm. Great words to live by, and if everyone would try their darndest to follow that, who'd need any other religion?
Also you might be cheating yourself out of an interesting, enriching experience, saying people aren't worth having in your life, if they don't dress or look like your acceptable standards.
I have a dear friend, a sweet, very innocent in ways person. She's nudging 400 pounds, and is in the category of morbidly obese, and will probably die from it and is totally aware of that. She wasn't overweight as a kid, but as an adult, her first marriage was very unhappy. Not because of her weight either. She did everything she could to try to make him happy, but she couldn't seem to please him no matter what she did. She had a little girl, who's the joy of her life, and then lost a baby, a stillbirth, very near her due date. She says she was devastated, and went into a deep depression. She felt she had absolutely no control over anything in her life whatsoever, and what was the point. She left her husband, and it was at that point that her weight went out of control. It's hard to watch everything you eat, when you just don't care. If you're feeding your kid a box of mac'n cheese, its easier to eat the rest of it, than to make something special for yourself. When you are having trouble making yourself get out of bed in the morning, being good to yourself is way too much effort. (by the way, her daughter is a teenager, and isn't overweight) After a certain point, scientists know, your body isn't able to process calories normally anymore, and without severely restricting calories, like with a gastrict bypass, morbidly obese people honestly aren't able to lose the weight anymore. She's got her life back, she's got a husband now who is devoted to her, 400 lbs and all, he's worried sick about her though. Her daughter is great. Doctors are trying to talk her into a bypass, but that's horrible major surgery, with a pretty high mortality rate.It takes around a year to recover. You also have to live with diarrhea, vomiting, if you eat more than a couple of tablespoons at a time, and, face it, its a mutilation of your body, psychologically hard to deal with as well. You have to take all kinds of supplements, because you can't physically eat enough to survive. Sounds like a great way to live. I've been with her in stores, people literally turn and look at her, and will sneer openly. She's learned to not let the pain show, but its there. Makes any looks I get as an OW/YM couple not even count.
It's not like quitting smoking, or drinking, where you just stop, and don't die from it, face it you still have to eat.
Even the bar tramp, think about it. Why on earth would a pretty girl with a great body feel the need for so much attention seeking? It obviously isn't because she feels great about herself, regardless of how she presents herself. She, for a reason we, and even she may not know, can only find self approval by having as much male attention as she can possibly get. And if you're worried about your man cheating on you with her, than you don't have the basic trust it takes for your relationship to make it. That's his moral choice, not your responsibility to prevent, by being "worthy" enough for him.
Yeah, the remark was made about a bunch of women we'll never meet, and they'll never know you said it, but cruelty makes me cringe. I take things like that seriously, it isn't at all funny. Women could be such a powerful force, if we'd quit trying to compete all the time, and support each other. Who gives a crap if someone is at a tough time in their life, and isn't in total control of where their kid's next meal is coming from, let alone that their hair isn't perfect, and their glasses are out of style.
And I've seen as many men cheat on wives who are always perfectly groomed, as those who run to WalMart in their sweats to buy toilet paper. And maybe if more men didn't act like sultans in a harem with a wifie who's only job is to keep him happy, their wives would feel enough better about themselves, to make more of an effort to keep up their appearance. It's a two way street.
It's like there's a cookie cutter image you're expected to portray, and if you don't follow it, you aren't good enough. Pooh!
And the attitude that I have to take the responsiblity to make sure my man doesn't cheat is garbage. That's a form of male blackmale. That's his choice, and if he's going to do it because you haven't been drop dead gorgeous enough, or too tired to have sex for a few days, than he's going to do it, just because he can get away with it too. His choice, not yours. When I was totally unhappy in my marriage, and even though I had chances, my moral choice was not to have an affair just because I had made that commitment. Men are perfectly capable of making the same choice, they aren't helpless sex driven animals, and its insulting anyone's intelligence to assume otherwise.
ANYWAY, the original thought I was trying to get across is, making cruel remarks about people, whether its for their clothes, race, body size, ethnic background, or the age of the person they love, is wrong. Even though you don't make them directly to that person you're helping perpetuate the idea that people deserve to be loved for how society percieves them, rather than the fact that we are all human and deserve to be honored, just for being, warts and all.
Enough, I'm off my soapbox now, I promise.

Well said, Bella.

I totally agree with you, Bella.

When we see a person that we don't know -and even if we know a little-, we don't know their stories, we don't know what they have gone through, how many times they cried, why they cried, nor why they laugh... Life is more complex than just appearance.

alby

Bella, what an absolutely lovely post! Don't you wish everyone paid attention that day in kindergarten when the teacher said, "Treat others as you'd want to be treated." Life wouldn't be perfect, just a bit easier;)

maximum respect to bella!

hey.what can I say but...."YOU GO GIRL!!!!"great post!!!

I guess this is to say I agree totally with Bella. . . . AND I don't entirely disagree with Polly. I'm not being politic or playing both ends. It's a complex issue, how we navigate our world: who we bring close, who we keep at arms' length. Appearance is one yardstick that gives us clues. How we interpret those clues is, well, variable.

I used to have such kneejerk reactions to people. Making fun (to myself, never verbally, I was too well brought up!) of how they looked if they were overweight, out of style, geeky, etc. It's amazing how easy it is to look at someone and make a value judgment! I believe that not only are we trained to do that in our culture, but that there is some "inbred" reason for dividing our world into the "in" and the "out" crowd. I can't prove it, don't know what it is, but I believe it, because it's been sooo prevalent throughout human history. We do put others down to make ourselves feel better.

Point is, one really has to be aware of this insidious tendency and counter it when it crops up in oneself! As Bella points out, it's almost an act of deliberate refusal to be brainwashed, to remember to look beneath the first appearance and discover the reality inside. That takes time we sometimes don't have.

I've learned a lot about my own judgments since meeting Thor. Most of his friends are "computer nerds" and "goth geeks". Really nice bunch of people, mostly. They sometimes have their own value judgments about people not like them. But they do seem a bit more tolerant, probably from having experienced social rejection themselves all too often.

Like Bella, one of the smartest, deepest, most articulate, poetic, beautiful-souled, talented, funniest, wittiest people I know is an obese woman who is also quite homely. Pockmarked skin, small beady eyes, long wild frizzy hair. In the crowd she hangs with, her talents are what she's judged on, not her appearance, which she has little control over. But in the "world at large" it's not a happy story for her. And Bella is right: that's not fair, not right, and thinking people ought to make better judgments about what counts.

Bella you deserve applause. Now on the general issue of judgement, I feel you have to use some judgement where people are concered. Last night this guy who was higher than a kite wanted to get my attention, I chose not to talk to him, not knowing what he might do and judging him and the situation I went on my way. At the same time I've stopped to talked to homeless people who've only wanted a few kind words. They just needed to not be ignored for once and treated like a human being. I know what it's like to be drop dead gorgous with all the attention I could handle and to be ignored because of not looking or feeling my best because of cronic illness. In my 20's I had 5 marriage proposals and in my 40's to some I'm considered old and not worth the time of day. It's how people treat each other all the time. We judge each other. If we knew each others stories, would we treat each other any better? I would hope so but I don't think that many people think in those terms. I try to think in those terms and be kind to people. For the most part people think of me as a kind person but at other times it's only gotten me in trouble. I think we have to weigh our judgements and see if they are really needed. There are some people who are really a mess and should be judged accordingly and then there are some people who just look like a mess who have the sweetest souls you'd ever meet. I always wonder what makes someone become that way. Terry

Bella, I'm at a loss for words! Oh, there they are!;) My God, what a beautiful, articulate post. It made me cry and feel remorse for what I had written in another thread. I really wasn't thinking about the individuals and what they were going through in their lives.

I asked my self after reading your post, why it is that I look at the women at the school for instance and think what I think. Well, I think it's because, AGAIN, I'm trying to see the male's point of view (sorry David, just shoot me). I'm trying to imagine what it would be like for a man to marry a total hottie, enjoy mass sex with her incredible body, only to watch in horror as over the years she totally disregards her looks because she's "gotten" her man and has kids, and doesn't need to be a hottie anymore. Meanwhile, he's kept himself in shape, catered to her every need, been a faithful, kind, supportive husband and father, and among other things, is concerned about her health. I've had conversations with mass husbands. Their biggest complaint is the disinterest in sex, when as a dating couple, that's all they did! The men feel as if they were 'tricked'. The second biggest complaint is when she "lets herself go". We're not talking the normal 20-40 pounds in a decade of marriage, but over and above that, and maybe not caring about the hairstyle or clothes or make-up either, when this person used to be a walking "Vogue" clone. Meanwhile, these same men go to the gym, even when they don't feel like it, play and exercise with the kids outdoors because the wife would rather watch t.v. and eat Cheese Puffs, watch their fat and carbo intake, and help with the housecleaning and laundry. Now they go to bed with a woman they don't even recognize anymore, and trying to have sex with someone who's disinterested as well as well overweight has to be a real dissappointment for them. Yes, Bella, they all stay faithful, but you know, it's sad!

I feel really badly for your friend. I certainly wasn't talking about her. She needs professional help, starting with a good therapist. I can't believe she can't get healthy. Your body loses weight when you consume less calories than you burn. Yes, she might be lovable, but she needs to keep herself alive for her family's sake. Even if she only starts out walking a block a night, she can do it. It'll turn into 2 blocks, then a mile, etc. She can diet too, and eat all she wants to feel full. A vegan diet will feed her all day long, 10 times a day if she wishes, and she'll still lose as much as she needs to. There has to be a desire to preserve the self. She needs to find that self-love and self-preservation deep within her, and move on it. Therapist first. Then diet.

I guess I come off like some shallow, egotistical, self-involved a**hole, but you know, I'm really not. When I'm out in public, I look into everyone's eyes. When I talk to someone, either a stranger or a friend, I ask them how they are, and I wait to hear the answer, and I really want to know! This may surprise you, but I actually bear the world on my shoulders, although mostly with the problems of children. I'm the "makeshift guidance couselor" on my street. I lay awake at night worrying about kids I hardly know. I give what little I have to people I've barely met. Once I moved a whole kitchen set into some stranger's apartment because my friend told me this person needed a kitchen set! I love everybody (except abusive, mean people) and I try to understand everybody. My posts about looks are really myself trying to understand what the average Joe goes through with relationships and how I can avoid dissappointing Robin. Is he a demanding, degrading, egotistical, self-centered a**hole? No! All the more reason I want to be my best for him. To put it simply, an awesome dude like him deserves the best, whether he asks for it or not.

Amazing, the 10 years Sherri's been going to specialists to try to lose weight, and all she'd have to do is diet. *sigh*
And they make you go to therapy before they even consider gastric resection, along with every concievable diet out there.
This is a perfect example of why fat is the last predjudice that's still acceptable. If only you would, you could lose weight, people say, since you won't, you must be choosing to be fat.
There are scientists working feverishly to try to uncover the fat lock secret, there is a set point your body reaches where it conserves fat cells like mad and all the starvation in the world won't budge them. And the more obese the person is, the harder the body strives to conserve it. It's puzzling, but its a fact.
There is an aerobics trainer who's been in the news lately, she sued Jazzercize or one of the chains for not hiring her. She teaches aerobics 4 to 6 hours every day, and guess what, she weighs 240 pounds. She's very very fit, and won her suit, that they'd have to prove she was unable to do the job, and they couldn't.
Thanks Waiting, you told graphically for me the lifestyle of us average women. I've heard over and over from men too, how much they help. Some do. My biggest gripe has always been, how can you "babysit" your own children as so many husbands claim to do? I thought babysitting was something a non-parent did. And why, when the husband does it, is it considered "help"? That makes it a favor he does me, instead of the two of us doing what needs to be done to get on with living. If we're both responsible adults living in the same house working the same hours, guess what? It ain't my JOB, and you aren't HELP.
My first husband justified his first affair with "look at you, who'd blame anyone?" I wieghed 135 pounds, had had 3 kids by my 23rd birthday, and was still, looking at pictures from then, not too darn bad. I was all of 231/2 by then. Sure I wasn't the 118 pounds I was when we got married, but 3 babies in less than 4 years will do that to you. He had me so down on myself in so many ways by then that I agreed with him that it was probably my own fault. What crap! The fact is the responsibilty was wearing on him, and he had to go have fun, regardless of the harm he caused. I didn't exactly get into that situation alone.
How about the husbands? How many of them bring flowers home for no reason, how many still spend time just making out without expecting sex? How many of them still court that cute little hottie they married, like they should now that "they have her and don't have to anymore".
I get furious when it's implied that anything that can go wrong in a relationship is the woman's fault. That's the mindset women have been fed for years, its the rational abusers use, and it needs to end. Men have to take responsibility for their own actions, and deeds, anything less demeans them, and it continues to make second class citizens of women.
Like I said, women would be such a powerful force if we'd nurture each other, instead of acting like there is some big competition going on with "the man" as the prize. That might have been the case in the stone age, but we're beyond that now. We don't need them for support and protection, and its time we all learned partnership instead of subservience. Its my job to do my best to respect and honor my partner, as I want him to be comfortable and happy, and its just as much his job to do the same for me. You need to keep it in the top of your list of priorities. But to consider myself "worthy" and worried that if I don't meet some beauty standard, he has the right to leave me for someone who does is ridiculous. Either the commitment is there or it isn't.
I think that's why David is so appealing to me, he takes his role as a partner seriously, and even though financially he can't do as much as me yet, as would be expected, we do share the load of life, emotionally, as well as the down and dirty stuff that needs to be done.
Maybe that's the true appeal of some younger men to me, they were raised by women my age, and hopefully have been raised differently and don't expect the sultan in a harem thing.

God, I can't believe how much you all are misconstruing what I'm trying to say! You act like I'm some mealy-moused little housewife, nodding in approval and racing to fulfill her man's every need! Jesus Christ! Robin would tell you I'm the biggest b**** in the world and HE'S the one who has to bend! But he'd also tell you that he's never been loved more in his whole life, spiritually, emotionally, physically or mentally.

I'd love to hear from some guys. I need some back up here. I know I had some valid points, and you gals are trying to make me out to be some obnoxious model wannabe! Not so! I'm simply saying, why does everyone act like the body is so unimportant in a relationship? A relationship is on a physical level as well as other levels. Why does everyone act like men should just love us no matter what? Yes, men gain too, and yes, men disregard their looks and neglect their wives too. Guess what happens? Their wives take them for everything they've got and get cute younger men!

I will never be "thin". It'll never happen. My gene pool won't allow it no matter what. I'd have to put myself in grave danger, such as vomiting my meals, to achieve it and I won't do that. But damned if I don't have enough respect for myself and the physical aspect of the relationship I'm in to at least TRY to remain somewhat fit. I'm not putting anyone else down for being fat. That's their choice. They need to be happy with their choice or change it.

Sorry Bella, but it takes a lot of WORK to get a human body up to 400 pounds! It does! That would mean almost absolute constant eating of high fat, high carb foods and stretching the stomach to hold all that food, to the point of being constantly uncomfortable. It's a form of self-abuse. It's a sign of self-hatred, much like self-mutilation, which involves cutting of one's own skin. There are skinny people who are also self-loathing, and become bulemic and/or anorexic. Health-wise, they're no better off. Sadly, society heralds them as "beauties", when in reality, their days are numbered. I think that's just as sick!

Your friend CAN improve her health. I just don't buy it that there's nothing she can do. I think it's a cop out. I don't care about her size. If being 400 pounds was healthy for her, I'd shut up, but her heart is under tremendous strain. She herself would love to be smaller so she wouldn't be so confined, she could live life the way she really wants to. All these doctors she claims to have seen, did she really, or is that what she told you? Did you actually go with her? Did anyone? The gastric bypass sounds dangerous and I don't blame her for not wanting to do it. I know the body stores fat more and more the more obese you get, but I also know there are safe ways to speed up metabolism. Not drugs either! Again, I'm not judging her. It's her body and her life. No one can live it for her but her. I wish her longetivity and happiness. That's what I'm sending out into the universe. And a sincere hug with it. She sounds like a good lady.

Yes, there are a big majority of us (me included) who no matter what will never see size 6 or 8, and will still exercise and bicycle and watch our diets and fuss over ourselves. We will be beautiful as we are, because we will still be healthy and able. We owe this to ourselves and our kids, if for no one else.

Oh, and about the hair, make-up and clothes??? Let me tell ya what MY day is like!!! Welcome to my freakin' world! I get up at a leisurely 6 a.m. and wake up my 13-yr.-old son for school. I start coffee and go into his room again - WAKE UP! Five minutes later, after staring absently at the coffee pot while it perks, I go in again "WAKE UUUUUUPPPPP!!!" He gets up and showers, I stumble back to my coffee. My son lingers through every step of getting ready. He almost misses the bus by about 2 seconds every morning. I'm having a heart attack.

I check my bank account. Overdrawn again. S***!!! Call the bank and beg bank manager to cover the gas & electric bill. Swear a fabulous b*** j** if he does. He reluctantly agrees. He knows I won't give him a b.j.

7:45 a.m. wake beautiful princess daughter. She whines and tells me to shut up and leave her room. I make her pancakes. She says they suck! We fight because she wants to wear a blue shirt with purple pants. We finally agree on an outfit. She almost misses the bus by 2 seconds. I have my second heart attack.

Robin wakes up and says, "C'mon, let's go!" He's had 2 more hours sleep than me, and I hate his guts for it. We clean FIVE HOUSES the size of Taj Mahal. I come home feeling as if I've been thrown down a flight of stairs. Robin lies down in bed with the t.v. remote. I fix dinner and listen to my kids whining about different things and arguing with eachother about whose life sucks worse. I want to shoot myself. I pour a glass of wine instead.

I feed the kids, they both hate what I made. I then do homework with them. Suddenly, I remember that my son has soccer practice 1/2 and hour away. I throw his soccer stuff at him and we race out the door. Robin is lying in bed with the t.v. remote. After dropping my son off, I race to the bank to make a deposit so I'm not overdrawn again and don't have to follow through on giving the bank manager a b.j. Then I go to the grocery to buy Robin cigarettes and stuff for the kids. I race back to pick up my son, and finally come home at 8 p.m. Robin is in bed with the t.v. remote. That bastard!!! I do the dishes, get the kids their showers, and tuck them in bed. I finally come to bed, and of all things, Robin is bored with t.v. and wants to have sex! That bastard!!! We have sex. Well, maybe it wasn't so bad! We watch The Simpsons. The next day, it all starts again....

My point? Nobody has it easy. We're all in this together. Quit thinking I'm against other women. That is the opposite of the truth. And Lady-in-Waiting...sorry if I sound so "cheery" all the time. I'll try to whine more. My daughter can give me lessons.

I've had conversations with mass husbands. Their biggest complaint is the disinterest in sex, when as a dating couple, that's all they did! The men feel as if they were 'tricked'.
ok,i have to coment on this line....where were their wives while these masses of husbands were saying this???it sounds like a line used in a bar to pick up chicks!!!!!!!!and for that matter it sounds like a really old line.PLEEEEEEEEASE!!!if some married guy started telling me what a lousy sex life he was having,i would know right then and there he wasn't telling me because i'm a therapist,it's so i would feel sorry for him and maybe give him a sympathy F***!!!!so if we're gonna see things from a man's point ,let's think like a man.

"Not all of us have your looks, figure or talent, but sometimes it feels like you are trying to club people over the head with how wonderful you are, and how wonderful you want to be. That is fine for you that you are your own best cheerleader, but sometimes it can be tiring to hear over and over again. When you obsess over your weight gain and preceived figure flaws, so worried you will end up one of the "heifers" and dumped for it, well, as a heifer, it gets old real quick"

amen. honey.

Fine, I'm done. Trying to make a point amongst those who don't want to hear it is pretty stupid. I'll try to find a more constructive way to spend my time. I've been here too much anyway. I need to spend more time in the real world and less time worrying about people in cyber space worried about slang terms.

My point exactly, Polly. Who wouldn't feel special if allowed to lay around watching TV when someone who's worked at least as hard as you is running around like a madwoman, feeding you, cleaning, etc, and then on top of it, giving you great sex, after an exhausting day. That's the sultan in the harem thing I was talking about. I am the man, therefore do not expect much from me, or I may be uncomfortable and leave you. If that's your thing, fine, it's not mine anymore. I'm as much the goddess in my relationship as he is the god. No more, no less.
So much for a partnership, you just described my last marriage, except for the part where, if he didn't like his job, he'd quit for a few months, and still expect me to cook, clean, and work a second job as well, if needed to get the bills paid. Nothing like coming home after a 10 hour day of hospital work, knowing you're on call, could wind up awake all night if things get busy, have to work the next day, and have someone look up at you from the recliner asking what's for dinner.
When David's home, and I'm working, I come home to dinner on the table. If I'm home, he works evenings, I try to leave him something in the fridge.
We work together to get the icky stuff done, then we can both relax. Makes us both happier that way, and I'm not so darn resentful. Besides, then we can both snuggle and watch TV together.
Why should you do the running while he lays around?
As far as the obesity thing, there's a really good Learning Channel special they rerun from time to time, called Christy's Story. Try to catch it. Her story is a lot like Sherri's.

Bella, for your information, I was just KIDDING, trying to lighten the mood! Last night for instance, Robin did homework with my kids and even got up with them this morning and got them both off to school because I didn't feel good. He fixed my cistern pump, my dishwasher, my car, among other things, and, oh yeah, does all the laundry!!! Robin works WITH me, so he's just as tired as I am, and yes, sometimes he runs the errands. I was just pointing out a day in the life, trying to insert some humor and make myself less "princessy", but hell, why try? People will see me as they see me, and frankly, I don't give a damn!

NOW I'm done!!!

Good, that you were kidding, but for many many women, that's how they live. And its pretty hard to feel hot passion for a guy who is like that 24/7.
So to sit there and say those poor married guys who aren't getting the hot stuff they used to is because the bad old wifie isn't up to snuff should only be taken at face value.
By the way, I read your description of your day to David, he wondered if the remote would still work if you had to use it from where it would wind up if he tried that.
Why so pissy about opinions that differ from yours? Everyone else has a right to state their opinions, but if they differ from yours you lash out.
You are a great person, but that doesn't mean you know everything, or are the only one allowed to be right.

Whoa .....

is I think the right thing to say here. Disagreeing is one thing and ganging up on someone is another thing and it isn't any more attractive than all of the
derogatory terms being used for overweight women.

We should practice what we preach ......

There may partially be an age thing happening here - although I'm not sure. I'm around Polly's age - late thirties - and the lifestyle that is being described as the "typical woman's life" is not anything that I or any of my peers would
put up with for 10 minutes - kids or no kids. I do understand that it wasn't so even 10 or 15 years before and I am immensely grateful to everyone who endured those sorts of marriages, caretaked for families, put up with lethargic and abusive husbands for the sake of their kids, suffered for doing so and finally (we hope) got out of those situations.

I'm not sure that what they went through, and the price that they paid and to some degree continue to pay is always fully real to their younger sisters who
have fundamentally dealt with different sorts of men and different sorts of relationships. (At least in the urban milieu - I understand that things may not have changed so much in smaller towns).

Hearing about how this situation drives women into depression and neglect
and desexualization does lead me to an instinctive reaction of "just get the hell out of there and get yourself together" because it sounds genuinely absurd. I check my 1st reaction because I know things are not always that simple. But I do question whether that is really the experience of the "typical woman" and if it is, then I think we do have to make our way towards a time in history where it is not understandable for any woman to tolerate a relationship like that. We shouldn't idolize foolish matyrdom either.

There is a difference between saying it is someone's fault that they are in this pickle and saying that it's OK to take care of the world and not yourself. It isn't OK. Loving people is pretty hard if you don't love yourself and address your own needs as well as everyone elses. Part of being a responsible person in this world is attempting to the best of your ability to be sane, to have a healthy body, to take care of your own financial needs and engage in
loving sexuality with the person or persons of your choice.

Do we all fall short of the ideal in some regard? Heck yeah. Do we need to treat each other with compassion when we do fall short and not with harsh words? Yes.

But claiming victimization and defaulting on the responsilbility that we all have to try to live a good life by blaming others for our troubles isn't admirable. It's sad. None of us gets an exemption from trying to be better because someone was mean to us or hurt us or abused us.

We're all stuck in our bodies and we have to be happy with what we've got, unless and until we are disciplined enough AND lucky enough (because it is both) to make slow agonizingly slow and gradual changes. But it isn't about other people doing things to us. It's about us and our relationship to our bodies and emotions and minds.

Men don't make us fat and men don't make us thin. Corporate marketing of products makes us feel inadequate no matter what the heck we do, and men are as apt to cruelty as any other humans, and also as apt to fall prey to marketing stereotypes about what is desirable and what isn't. Some men and some women fall into traps of abuse and self-loathing and some men and women don't. I would add that those of us who are most lovable - no matter our weight - both accept human imperfection and try to have the healthiest
body AND THE HEALTHIEST MOST SELF-AFFIRMING LIFE that we can under the circumstances.

And if the circumstances are intensely difficult than we try like hell to change them.

For instance, I notice that just for myself, when I walk into my kids' school, I feel like a model compared to the matronly heiffers that frequent there! I'm not trying to be mean, but we're talking women my age (late 30's, early 40's) with short hair in a tight perm, outdated glasses, tight sweatsuits revealing stomachs overlapping hips, bulging out everywhere, no make-up, they just look like they've given up, as if to say, "I'm married with children, I have no reason to try anymore!" Yet they want their husbands to remain faithful to them. You know, go ahead and take away the "they have a right to still feel good about themselves just as they are", okay fine, but then there's still a health factor. They're asking for diabetes, heart disease, and stroke, among other things that happen to overweight, out of shape people. And I can't think their husbands are too excited to come home to that.

This is the original statement that started this thread. My original point was, that making judgements on anyone based on appearances is wrong. Making derogatory remarks about anyone based on appearances is wrong. And making the woman's looks the basis for their husbands faithfulness is the male blackmail that needs to end. And I stand by that. My friend was an extreme example, only meant to put a human face on someone who is usually viewed as a non-person.
I agree that people need to do their best to stay healthy. It is my job after all. My main predjudice is people who smell bad. Soap and water is cheap. But out of style clothes and hair, and a few pounds overweight doesn't deserve a heifer remark and a snap judgement.
The parents who come in with a wheezing sick kid in the middle of the night reeking of cigarette smoke, saying they can't afford to buy the asthma medicine, my other main predjudice.
Smokers also are working their way into an early grave. But even they aren't regarded with the open derision accorded overweight people, all supposedly in the name of "caring for their health". Make a nasty remark about someone with an overlapping belly, because of diabetes, etc, and then a few threads later talk about buying cigarettes. Think about the irony.
And its not ganging up. I'd say the same thing if the remarks were about sexual orientation, race, whatever.

Disagreeing is one thing and ganging up on someone is another thing and it isn't any more attractive than all of the
i didn't think it was "ganging up" because some people had the same opinion.????
mine was a ?? as to where these masses of guys wives were when they were complaining about their sex life,and that it sounded like a bad pick up line.i never did here where they were.i thought is was a dumb statement,quoted it and asked a ??.that is not "ganging up"
people have disageed with me on other post's before,it did not change how i felt and i didn't feel ganged up on.i just felt that mine was not the popular opinion.
telling people they are ganging up as if they are a bunch of bullies is like saying only post if you don't disagree with somone else that has been on here longer.
people disageed with me about the going out to bars without your partner post,more then one person.i didn't change how i felt and i didn't change my mind.and if i was being "ganged up on".well i just didn't notice.

when people ask me why i've never married, i'll just point to this thread...

Interesting thread...

Ok, Polly's problem is long standing and has appeared periodically since the last incarnation of the forum. But I understand where she's coming from. I've seen it in others and am talking to another friend with the same worries who also has a 16 year gap.

Polly and my buddy were beautiful desirable entertainers, my friend was also a model. Their bodies were more than important they were part of the way they made their living. But those beautiful bodies also attracted men, not always the right type, but it is very addictive to be admired and adored even by men you wouldn't have on a bet.

Now the years come creeping up on little cat feet. The lines appear and so do the bulges. The group of men who thought you were hot dwindles. Maybe you even get used once or twice. Maybe someone makes a comment that, even forgiven, burns like a brand that will forever be a scar. You can no longer face the fact that you are not the young hottie you were and no amount of work, surgery or prayer can ever bring that back. In short, you have lost what you were. You have lost that sense of Self and it's terrifying.

So you have to rebuild your self-esteem and it has to be based on something other than your looks. Being gorgeous only requires a bit of work compared to creating a whole new person who is strong and whole and loving and doesn't begin and end in a mirror. It is the hardest work anyone can do. Those of us who have never been beautiful, slim or desirable just can't understand what people like Polly are going through. She's creating a whole new person, we are merely learning to live a little better with what we have.

I think the reason posts where someone we consider beautiful worries about their looks pushes our buttons is because it makes us look harder in the mirror. We already know that we aren't beautiful and never will be. But we look a little too closely at those lines, wrinkles, fat pads, spider veins and on and on. We worry too much that if someone like Polly fears she might lose her man, what chance to we have to hold ours? I skip Polly's obsession posts because they make me feel worse about myself. I know Bear thinks I'm beautiful, but I don't always feel beautiful and it makes me feel even less beautiful to have to think about someone worrying about 10 or 20 pounds when I have to worry about 50.

I know that Polly's Robin thinks she is amazing. My friend is adored and will be getting married, too. But it's so very hard to let go of that idea that you are somehow less than you were. We just have to cut them some slack when they start worrying and remind them and ourselves, that love looks at who and what the person is inside and desire only looks at the surface. We are lucky to have the former and need to stop mourning the loss of the latter.

Everyone is discussing that poor woman who weighs 400 pounds. So does Bear's older brother. He's only 31 and he is so huge that he wheezes just sitting in a chair. Genes play a big role. His grandfather was somewhere between 600 and 800 pounds when he died. So does loneliness and self-hatred. You can talk about a lot of things being the cause of morbid obesity, but putting too much food in your mouth and not exercising enough is how it happens. Once it has gotten a grip it is terribly hard to undo as this poor woman has discovered. Bear's brother still hasn't come to terms with it and neither has his mother, who is still feeding him every time he comes home. But reality checks are a b***h...

I think there are very few women who "go to seed" just because they catch a man and settle in. There are a whole lot of reasons to gain some weight and very few to gain a couple of hundred pounds. Bear's brother and this poor woman have a lot of things going on that we can't really understand and don't need to think relate to us. We are going to gain some weight, we are going to try to stay healthy at whatever weight works for us. Don't let the "weight worries" get to you beyond going on that diet you always promised yourself you'd get around to and taking some long walks and enjoying the Spring with someone you love

Peace,
BA

Lovely post and very well put.

Bear and I get more looks for our size than we do for any age gap. He's 6'8", 340 pounds and I'm 6' and 230 pounds. We've been working on it and have lost 10 pounds. Not much, but it's a start.

We were dancing at a Christmas party last year and a pretty little blonde felt it her duty to come over and dance next to us and laugh at us. We just move away from her, because pounding her to jelly would have been in bad taste.

Bear has gotten laughed at to the point where taking off his shirt in our back yard last summer was a milestone. He had not had his shirt off in public since he was a young teen. I was so touched that he took it off that I ended up in happy tears. It's taking years for him to heal from the rude remarks. People have no idea how a small comment can hurt and how long that hurt can last.

For a while I was part of a support group for men with a small endowment. I went there origionally looking for support for a worried guy I know on line. I was amazed at the level of pain and devastation to self-esteem of the guys there. Most of them had someone say something to them, classmates during gym showers, a girlfriend, or even a wife. Some were now so worried that they were afraid to date again. Some had partners, but were worried that they would never be good enough and their partner would eventually leave for someone "bigger."

In Real Life or on the Net you have to be so careful what you say and how you say it because the tiniest stone can cause very large ripples. Judgement is so easy. Understanding takes more work, but is much more rewarding because you always have the knowledge of what you learned about that person.

Peace,
BA

Thanks to the calvalry for getting here!

I wasn't going to respond to this anymore because I felt so completely misunderstood. I left incensed. I just had to say thank you to Kye, DS and most of all, to BA. BA surprised me the most, because we've had our disagreements about stuff, and she didn't like names I used. My head has pretty much been up my *** the two years I've posted here, and when I used terms to describe people, I always thought I was achieving some degree of humor. Maybe not in good taste, but just relieving stress. I didn't understand how much hurt and anger my words could cause, and it was certainly never my intent.

I've been going through some pretty bad head trips lately. BA hit the nail on the head. I was really hot once in my life. It was part of my job, being a semi-professional singer in a rock band. It was probably the funnest time in my whole life, and the only time I felt attractive and accepted. I'm crying now as I type this. My father told me once, that I wasn't as pretty as my friends. I never, ever got over it, and I never, ever felt "good enough", even though I surely was. My father actually criticized me my whole life, and my mother had no faith in anything I did. All she ever said to me when I would tell her my dreams was, "You can't do that! You're no good at that. Someone else will win, they'll be better..." There was a point in my life where my looks became my weapon against disapproval and unacceptance. I got by on my looks. Right or wrong, for the first time, I felt "cool". Part of the group.

I'm not "cool" anymore. I'm not size 6 anymore. I can't afford to buy clothes, all my money goes to supporting my kids. I go to thrift stores and get clothes from friends for myself. My body isn't, in my opinion, pleasing to the eye anymore. I'm seeing fine lines and gray hairs. I dye my hair, use creams, avoid fat, and still I'm losing the fight. The only security I ever had, because nobody wanted a smart fat girl, they wanted a slender, pretty one, who cared about personality?

Ironically, I have the most gorgeous, wonderful man I've ever known, at a time when I feel I look worse than ever. He's 16 years younger to boot. I'm supposed to hold on to that? I could have easily 16 years ago, when I was hot and "cool". Now I've got parent/teacher meetings, soccer games, financial debt, health issues, and not enough hours in the day. I think it's a cruel joke life has played on us, to make us meet at this time in our lives. Ah well, better late than never.

I hope this post cleared some things up. Thank you, BA, because you helped clear up things for me that until now I didn't realize. To all of you, I'll be much more careful about the words I use. I won't hesitate to express my opinion, we're all entitled to our opinions, but I will do it without name-calling. Promise! :)

You're right, Polly, we have had our disagreements. I pretty much quit this forum because of the harshness of your words. It's taken quite a while to come back to checking posts more than a couple of times a week. Still, since I do understand your pain I couldn't just let you cower while others threw those stones...those horrible hurting stones.

You are an abused child. You will always be an abused child. If you can't get to counseling for it, I would recommend a book called "Toxic Parents." Its time to start letting go of the things that were said to you. Letting go of the pain is hard. I was ridiculed as a child, too. My grandmother was so viscious to everyone that only about 10 people attended her funeral. I will always someplace inside be fat, stupid and incompetent because I heard it so often. But I work to try to prove her wrong. By proving her wrong, I'm making myself a better person. I'm taking her meanness and making it something good and positive. I had to do something or die and this was my way of surviving.

I can't tell you to "get over" the fact that you aren't young and beautiful anymore. All I can do is encourage you to look into Robin's eyes more than you look into the mirror. You still do not truly understand that if he had wanted a hot young woman with no responsibilites -- he would have gone out and gotten one. He didn't because that's not what he wants out of life. He's taken a look at the hotties and the fact that they are as shallow as a puddle. That's not what he wants. He decided at some point that life meant more with you in it and that meant your kids and your money worries and, yes...your aging body.

Beauty of the body fades, but beauty of the soul only increases as time passes. Some guys like the former but Real Men prefer the latter. If you look around you, most of the happy couples are not composed of hotties. I see people walking hand-in-hand in the mall who could stop a clock. Only they know what they see in one another, but it's real and they believe in it.

Polly, I'm so sorry that you were crying. I hope Robin was there to kiss the tears away. Only he can reassure you that 16 years is not so very far apart and that his love is real and strong and forever. The ironic thing is that you probably have a much stronger hold on him now than you would have if you were 16 years younger because you've used that time to mature into the woman he wants to be with. You can hold him and I think that, deep down, you know it or you wouldn't be with him now. He thinks you're plenty "cool." I'll bet he's totally confused why you don't think you can hold him. He probably feels so lucky to have found you that he can't imagine leaving. Those worries you have are that poor little abused girl who still can't believe that she will ever be good enough. You have to talk with her and let her know that those times are long gone and that she's matured into a woman who is a great mother and partner. Those are the values that count and you have them in spades.


I expect to be chatting with you over the years sharing joys and sadness and celebrating each anniversary we have with our amazing younger man...who won't always be so young either. Life hasn't played a cruel joke on us. The cruelest thing would be if we never met our partners, or had dismissed them because of the age difference. I hate being 26 years older than Bear, but I will always be grateful that we will have the rest of our lives to love and we will just have to work twice as hard to cram it all in the time we are allotted.

Go get a hug, Polly...you've earned a million of them.

((((HUG)))) from across the miles.

Peace,
BA

And lovely words to live by. It may not change or save the world...but it sure made a whole lot of sense. I call it being human because you see the Value in people for "who" they are and not for their apperance, social, marital status, religion, race, ethincity. Not of those things make who "we"/"you" are.

And I just love the way you brought your point across. Expressed beautifully. You are very real to me.

Standing Ovation!! BRAVO!!! :cool:

Polly, Robin thinks you're hot and isn't that all that matters? As for being cool, it's a state of mind. :) I work for a new and vintage clothing store and let me tell ya second hand clothes are very hot and oh so cool! They fly out of the store! BTW I tried to be somewhat general with my post, but if any of my words have hurt you then I'm sorry. Take Care Terry

I just have one more story to tell, then I'm done. Why do I seem to talk in stories anyway?
I don't want to come off sounding like I think I'm some kind of saint, I'm as far from that as you can get. Impatient pretty well describes my personality in a nutshell.
My mother died 12 years ago, at the age of 52 from an allergic reaction to a damn bowl of oyster stew of all things.
At her funeral, they had to put people in the choir loft, the infant room, and set chairs up in the vestibule, and wound up setting up chairs in the basement to hold the people who came for her funeral.
To this day, when I go to my hometown, people will grab me and hug me, and some will still burst into tears and tell me how badly they miss my Mom.
Was she perfect? Heck no. She weighed 275 pounds the day she died, they had to special order her coffin. She was beautiful, but in the Liz Taylor large size way. She was a horrible housekeeper, and if I had a date or a friend coming over when I was home, I had to clean up myself if I didn't want to be embarassed. She had other priorities. She and my Dad had a miserable marriage, one I was determined not to duplicate for myself, and of course did, not just once, but twice.
But, she was the most "accepting" person I know. One thing that could get our mouths washed out with soap was calling someone names, or making fun of them. She went ballistic about that. Her favorite statement when I was little was to always be nice to the underdog, they have enough problems without one more person being mean to them, and to always remember that you're always the underdog to someone else, no matter how high up you go.
She'd have drooling, mentally handicapped people walk up to her and hug her, and without missing a beat in her conversation, would bear hug them back, drool and all.
I decided a long time ago, that when I die, not if, its when, I'd rather have nearly 500 people come to my funeral, most sobbing, and still grieve for me a dozen years later, than to have someone say about me, oh she looks great for her age. In the big scheme of things that's far more important to me. And you can't fake caring about people, it shows, in how you talk and act about them. You can work to develop it, but you can't be cutting people in private to friends, and then expect them to believe you care in public.
I was so embarassed about her in my teenage years, because of our messy house, the fact that she was large, and she wore clothes for comfort, definitely not style. But on her birthday one year, when I was 15, a car pulled up in our drive, and the "coolest" people in school were inside, they'd brought her a 6 pack of pop for her birthday. She'd helped chaperone prom, and they said she was a blast.
When we'd go out as adults, (we were only 18 years apart), she'd constantly be having men approach her, even in the polyester pants, and at her size. I think even men are drawn more to someone who'll actually listen to them sometimes. She'd laugh about it, and never take it seriously. But after she died, I had grown men friends of hers tell me what a beautiful woman she was.
ANYWAY, that's why my trigger is easily tripped by derogatory comments about people, and why I can't just stay quiet and not say anything when something makes me cringe.
My biggest regret is that I didn't probably ever tell her how much I appreciate her example while she was here, I certainly didn't expect her to die on me when I was only 34. I just hope that where ever she is now, she knows, and knows that even though I have to work so much harder at what came so naturally to her, I'm trying to follow her, in that part of her life.
I do work at trying to stay healthy. Not sexy, I'm too lazy for that, but healthy, I want to be around well past 52 if I have anything to say about it, and I didn't want to embarass my kids with a messy house when they brought their friends over, besides the fact that it drives me nuts, so that isn't the same, but in the most important aspects I try really hard.
When I'm gone, I want people to be able to tell my kids that their mother was a beautiful person, and mean it the most important sense.

I am one of the bazillion women that had a voluptuous figure that blew up to "heiffer" later in life (pre-menopause/menopause). When I was young and beautiful, uninvited male attention annoyed the heck out of me. I used to think OR say, "Hey, I am not here for YOU. I am not here to please you. Because I please you, does not give you the right to fondle me with your eyes." Now, I think, "Hey I am not here for YOU. I am not here to please you or displease you. You don't like what you see? Look somewhere else!!!"
I acknowledge my current weight and shape, but I don't lament it because I just don't care to excercise and diet. There are, however, overweight people that have tried everything and cannot lose the weight, and my heart goes out to them. I have always felt that making fun of or criticizing people for their appearance was completely off limits. BUT I try not to judge or attack people that say cruel things, because they are the most broken, pain-filled, self-criticizing people among us. I have a simple belief: None of us need more criticism.

I can't believe someof the stuff I am reading here. For goodness sake, all she said was some of the women look liked heifers (sp). She didn't say they should be sent out and shot. So she's brutally frank, so she says she looks 10 years younger, so she goes out alot to bars and parties, so she's got a hot young thang. You know what? Let's take her out and shoot her for God's sake!

She says some pretty vital stuff on this board that works wonders for many of you. And certainly we need the balance of her blunt words to my namby, pamby love the world take. I mean isn't supposed to sort of be a blend of persons differing opinions and ideas and backgrounds to create a wealth of dynamics from to which to draw strength? Kye is about the sweetest thing out there, including me, and Rhiannon is so deeply practical and says it so eloquently while we laugh reading it at the same time, and Desert Spring says whatever she chooses and in my book is right on. I'm still scared of Mrs. Robinson though, wondering what she's about, but I think I like it! Nafadda seems awfully cool. And everytime I read Bears Angel I need some kleenex.

And frankly while being in my darkest moments, drinking a couple of drinks with an old friend, I believe I may have used the term 'heifer', but don't tell anyone. Shht. It's just our own insecurities and stuff. But God, hanging the girl out there and whoopin her seemed a little much. Likely I was calling myself a heifer along with other unknowing partners out there who like me may have been pushing 200 pounds or more. (I don't weigh that now, but a couple slip ups is all it takes).

So chill everyone, this is a forum, a board, a public one at that, where our opinions and expressions are our own. And if I missed anyone of you in talking about our uniqueness, forgive me because I think everyone participates and adds something whether I approve or not. I can take what I want and leave the rest.

And for those of you who disagree with this or find it distasteful for your reading, please take what you need and leave the rest.

And Polly, I've never always agreed with what you say, and several times I have bristled and blushed, but I've never felt you shouldn't have said it. Keep doing what you do, because it's you. Don't let anyone here make you feel you are out there too far or any of that bull shit; this board is just a little piece of your pie of life and you don't need this crap to bring you down. You were rock and rolling just fine without the professional critique of a few members here.

Cindy

Cindy, thank you for your support! BA, I printed out your last post and will buy the book.

A lot of people here don't "get" my sense of humor, just like some of them didn't "get" IRISHMAN'S. I'm not referring to the post he made to Susan, but others he has made. I do insert humor into a lot of what I write, try to make people chuckle now and then.

There are people on this board who are terminally serious about everything. I've never once seen them joke or chuckle. That's fine, but I wish those who take me so literally would simply ignore my posts. It would be better for me, for them, and for those who actually think I'm funny! :)

Cindy's right...I gotta be me. Some of you are groaning and going, "Damn, she had to fuel the fire!" Well, not really, because I did learn that I can be funny without being cruel. The problem is, I don't always know I'm being cruel.

Just know this: know that everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt. My word isn't the final word. Those of you who get hurt are simply giving me too much power. I'm just a little ole' housecleaner from Cincinnati with a great, big mouth and I like to use it!

I get a lot of private messages and e-mails from people who really enjoy what I post, even if they don't agree with me or think I'm brutally honest. They appreciate the humor, and they know when I use a derogatory term, it's not to be taken seriously. The only time I should be taken seriously (and trust me, you'll know) is when I'm posting to someone who is being abused. As BA said, I'm an abused child, and I don't tolerate abuse in any form. Calling a person a derogatory term is abuse. Calling an imaginary person a derogatory term isn't.

oy vey! You guys have to go and get all "interesting" on the long weekend* while I'm computerless! Can't you just stifle yourselves until I'm around to be "practical" (me? Cindy? You confusing me with someone? lol) and philosophical so you can laugh at me. (That's what you said, Cindy! Don't deny it you meanie you! lol!)

*(I don't work Fridays, and yesterday was Patriots Day/Boston Marathon here in Mass, so no work and a four day weekend! Yaaay!)

Polly, sweet heart, brevity is always safest: "It's preferable to continue to make an effort to avoid looking like one has just rolled out of bed after a drunken lost weekend" might have gone down smoother. :-) Too bad I never take my own advice, hmmm?

As for reactions. For my money, nothing cyber is ever worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. The one thing I do know is that cyber is no venue for really getting to know anyone in their entirety. Tone of voice -- especially self-deprecating tone of voice, or sarcasm -- gets lost all too easily. We get a one-dimensional viewing. It's possible to be hotly and unpopularly opinionated AND a really nice, giving person at the same time. So, while any of us is lecturing on Polly on being "accepting," maybe we could be more accepting of her way of expressing herself? Just a notion. Feel free to ignore. :-)

And yannow, sometimes I think people just work out what they are really thinking while they're typing it out. I do that a lot (am I the only one?): sometimes I'm practical enough to let it marinate for a day, and edit before sending. Not enough, though.

Anyways, we all have our dysfunctions and our physical imperfections, be it wrinkles, fat, prejudice, kneejerk reacting, limited perspective, inability to communicate in writing versus talking in person, and so on. When I read Polly's description of "heifers who have let themselves go," I heard more fear than loathing. It's a sore spot for her because it's a sore spot for her. How we torture ourselves needlessly. (I mean we in the royal sense, of course, lol!) Kidding.

Polly wrote:

"Ironically, I have the most gorgeous, wonderful man I've ever known, at a time when I feel I look worse than ever. He's 16 years younger to boot. I'm supposed to hold on to that? I could have easily 16 years ago, when I was hot and "cool". Now I've got parent/teacher meetings, soccer games, financial debt, health issues, and not enough hours in the day. I think it's a cruel joke life has played on us, to make us meet at this time in our lives."

I hear that. But that's the first spontaneous response. Think about it a bit more and the only conclusion you can come to is that YOU might be self-consciously mourning the loss of the sexy girl you once were, BUT Robin chose instead the older (but not yet old) woman you are now. He doesn't have to subscribe to the same preferences in what's "hot" and "cool" as you do. :-) My Thor and I have very different tastes in aesthetic appeal. He yawns and shrugs at women I consider dropdead gorgeous, and he finds women attractive that I just shake my head at. (Which is why I can believe he actually finds me beautiful! Lol! I'm not, but I'd be a fool to expend much energy arguing with him. Polly, trust Robin is doing just fine about you, even if you're not fine about you yet! ) :-)

Besides, Polly, that sexy girl you once were is still in there. Always will be. Robin sees her with his heart. But he didn't pick you because of her, he picked you, now. Instead of us (you, me) worrying our men will one day think they've made a mistake, we'd do better to just thank the goddess of unexplained phenomena that men just really are from a different planet in this regard. :-) In this case, that's the good news!

Party on, y'all. :-) Just wait up for me. :-)

I can deal with a lot, I don't give a rat's behind about someone bragging, or putting themselves down, I call myself names too, but when someone starts getting mean, and name calling is mean, I'll state my opinion of that too.
I didn't realize that the mothers of her daughter's classmates were imaginary. Goodness, then it is ok to call them heifers.
Person after person has stated that they cringe, or cover their eyes, or are upset by the things that she has said, and still it goes on. Hardly anyone is brave enough to take the blasting you get for differing from her opinion. PM'ing your concern is one thing. But newbies need to know that not everyone is going to be flippant, or tell them how wonderful "I" am, in response to a real concern.
This has happened long and often enough.
I was going to say, cruelty isn't FUNNY, its MEAN, but then I realized Rodney Dengerfield made a really good living out of putting people down.
I don't care how abused someone was as a child, two wrongs don't make it right, and treating others how you wouldn't want to be treated isn't right. And if I were truly being mean to someone, and hurting them, I surely hope someone would care enough to step in and point it out.
Cyber is worth getting your knickers in a bunch over, when it's a group you depend on for support. There isn't a whole lot of it out there for us, and we deserve to have our concerns taken seriously here. New people need to feel safe here, and know that no matter how outrageous their situation might seem to them, they aren't going to get made fun of here. This should not just be a venue for one person's ego boost at a total disregard for everyone else's feelings.
BA, Lord love her, has already said she quit coming here for a long time, solely because of Polly. If she could run her off, as beloved as she was well before Polly ever got here, what chance does a newbie have?
I won't be accepting over mean name calling any more than I'd be accepting of someone cracking their kid in the store, or racial jokes, or sexually degrading remarks, or whatever. Call it helping take responsibility for my fellow man.

"I didn't realize that the mothers of her daughter's classmates were imaginary. Goodness, then it is ok to call them heifers."

Um, I can't tell if you're being tongue-in-cheek sarcastic here. I don't think it's okay to call even imaginary people names, just because they don't have feelings that can be hurt. I think what hurts in that case is the perspective of the person calling the names getting reinforced in a negative way.

Good points, though Bella. I'd like to talk a bit about "running people off the board." And who has responsibility for the feelings of newbies, and/or for supporting people who come here.

1) I'd never let anyone run me off a board. (I once quit the Scotland.com discussion board, but only because it had a lot of adolescent twits who wasted my time with boring nonsense that had nothing even remotely to do with Scotland. But before I did, I ran that group off the board over to the NewZealand.com discussions so they could avoid me. :-) ) But if I have a difference of opinion with someone, AND that someone chooses to express themselves in a way that is offensive. . . well [shrug] I simply can't take it personally. I really do believe it's about them, not about me. I just ignore their posts after that point, and give them enough rope to hang themselves in the eyes of the other members as they dig themselves deeper. And I really do believe no one has that kind of power (to run someone off): the runnee chooses to react that way. We are not responsible for others' feelings or actions, especially strangers. If someone chooses to opt out of a heated discussion they find bothersome, okay if that suits them. But they're not forced to.

2) Newbies: It seems to me that it should be well-known by now that over all Cyberland is a free-for-all. A potentially dangerous free-for-all. You'll run across the best and the worst in people, and everything along the continuum. If I were running this board, I'd send a "welcome" post to all new members reminding them of that, just in case they've been living in the back of a closet with no computers for the past 10 years and have never posted on another board.

In the case of Polly. . . she's hasn't in my recollection jumped down the throat of any newbie, scaring them off. And even if she had, she's only one voice among us all, not THE voice of the board. There are plenty of others who chime in with support and encouragement immediately when a newbie logs in with a concern. If said newbie chooses to read only what irks and ignores what helps, well. . . maybe they don't belong in discussions with strangers, but should only hang out with friends who will tell them what they wish to hear. (Which, btw, is exactly what I personally don't want any friend of mine to do to me.)

3) Which brings me to the issue of "support." If one wants only support they'd best hire a therapist. I'm not sure you can even be guaranteed you'll get only that there. But if you want opinions. . . you're going to get the whole gamut on a public board. Including ones that tell you you're full of it. :-)

Let me play devil's advocate for a second. Suppose a newbie came on board posting "How can these heifers let themselves go like that and still expect their men to remain faithful?" What kind of "support" would it be anyone's responsibility to offer her?

Just wondering.

Because I don't think "support" is the only service we offer. Sometimes a wake-up call, a boot to the head, a smack then a hug is called for. Most valuable, though, for my money, is the wide range of different perspectives and experiences one can sample. Not solidarity and agreement and kissy kissy: opinions. Different ones and from all possible angles. So I can take what works for me and drop the rest. All while not taking it personally. I'm not saying we can't be close, supportive, friendly, etc. I'm saying we can't demand that and only that. It's an unrealistic expectation.

Anyway, that's what I come here for. And I can't insist that's what "you" (generic you, not anyone in particular) come here for anymore than "you" can insist this is "a support only" board.

[off soap box now. And donning flamesuit.] :-)

Quote from Polly, so yeah tongue in cheek sarcastic I guess.
Since calling the women in her daughter's school heifers started this all.
Calling a person a derogatory term is abuse. Calling an imaginary person a derogatory term isn't.

ah. I thought so. See, I miss that tone of voice thang left out of cyber communications. :-)

Well, lord knows I've agreed AND disagreed with Polly in the past. No doubt will again. But it seemed to me that the very thing some posters were annoyed at Polly for -- being "mean" and judgmental and non-supportive -- is what was being tossed back at her. Maybe it's a good lesson: "here, this is what is feels like, how do you like it?" I don't know. But it's kind of ironic to criticize someone for doing something one is doing oneself.

I just thought the degree of upset seemed to be a bit out of proportion to the crime. But I could be just harder shelled than most. Anyone wanna borrow my shield cloak? It's roomy, and very stylish. :-)

Hey Rhiannon:

I love it when you do this stuff. You are so freakin good. I want you on my side, baby. If I ever have litigation I am calling you.

OK so 'practical' also didn't seem like the right term to describe you but I was groping to get the stuff out and i was damned tweaked over some of the stuff being said. How could I describe the famous writings of Rhiannon; uhhh, right on, yea to the point, and ever so freakin funny when you are hitting the nail on the head. But everyone else knew, didn't you all?? I mean, she rocks.

So when did I miss the racial and religious stuff someone mentioned up there? Has someone been dishing out some major taboos? All I ever heard was heiffer or miss piggy or something. I put the miss piggy in just to annoy people.

And truly if people are running away because mean ole grumpy Polly scared em off, wah, cry. I did a couple threads where I waited for that mean ole wench to reply along with all the others. Man when I saw her name come up, I cringed, and I only read with one eye cause I was scared she was gonna ream my butt for being a woosy in my relationship. But she wasn't too bad, cause otherwise I would have never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever come back. Cause she would have hurt my feelings. And caused me permanent emotional distress.

Give me a break!!

Cindy

(Your check is in the mail, Cindy.) :-) Yeh, I been watching too much Ally McBeal.

hey, yannow, guys, I rearead my stuff and it sounds like I'm lecturing Bella et. al. I don't mean to sound like that! In my head I'm having a really measured, mellow discussion.

And it's not like I want to have "the last word" when I respond, it's that someone will say something that inspires a thought in me.

Point? Apologies if my tone (or lack of it in cyber) comes off like I'm steamrollering anyone. Not what I want to do! To anybody. You are ALL useful and valuable commentators and I learn so much from you all. I am very grateful you are willing to put yourselves and your opinions on the line without reservation.

Lecture away, my dear. That's what support is all about to me. Giving your caring opinion.
And Cindy, the point it, its not any better to make fun of fat people than it is to make fun of them for race or religion. Which, by the way, happened in the WTC thread, one of which was so bad it was removed. Predjudice is wrong, whoever it's toward.
So if it's ok to call someone heifer, or Miss piggy, where do you draw the line? Who decides what put down is ok? Why is it ok to be mean to people based on what size they are, any differently than for what color they are?
When I started coming here, I got nailed a lot for David's age. He was only 17. Most everyone was caring and polite about it, and the ones who weren't, who were rude and nasty, got promptly dressed down by the other regulars, even those who disagreed with my situation.
I really appreciated knowing everyone's opinions, and concerns, and after more than a year and a half, know that we might not have made it without this place. I found others who had met their guys when they were teens, and had been with them for a long time. and it gave me the courage to give this wonderful guy a chance to prove he really felt like he did.
He however quit posting after being told often enough he was only a child who's opinion didn't count, after disagreeing on a couple of things that "all men" want. Seems the same thing's happening to Soulless. He apparantly doesn't know what he really wants from women either, no matter how much he protests. Ever wonder why more young guys don't post? I've got at least 4 more in my email list that won't.
He might be a "child" in some people's eyes, but he's more of a man than in all the ways that count than anyone who's never met him would believe.
I don't want anyone to not have the same support and concern that I had when I started coming here.
I also don't mean to lecture, and I want everyone to feel free to share their opinions, but without recriminations, and name calling and going ballistic against those who might disagree. That's where the safety is, feeling safe to disagree.
We all wound up in a similar situation together, now lets just try to help each other through, no matter what our personal opinion might be. Free to give it, but not to harm.

We do have enough threads here to weave cloth. This thread has enough content for the entire forum. But I think it all comes back to the idea of casting stones. It is so very easy to throw them and impossible to call them back. And the worst thing is that you never know which stone is going to do the damage.

Right now too many people are entirely too eager to cast those stones at Polly. For some reason she is really taking a pounding here, one she doesn't deserve. She's been saying fairly rude things for quite a while now and has always been supported and encouraged. Suddenly she is being demonized. That she is an abused child has been passed over as if it was not important. It is majorly signficant because it explains the sharpness of her tongue and her sense of humor. If you grow up with ridicule it becomes acceptable to use it yourself, even though you would not ever be mean on purpose. And it's not like she's chopping up people right and left. This was actually a pretty small thing and it's gotten blown way out of proportion. Rhiannon's right, those who accuse Polly are doing just what they are accusing her of doing.

Once this stuff starts it's hard to stop it because eveyone is right -- and everyone is wrong.

Polly I really hope you do buy Toxic Parents and start to heal. I think this thread has been a really nasty and painful reality check. Humor at someone else's expense isn't funny to most people especially not the person being laughed at.

I do disagree with you, Rhiannon that "For my money, nothing cyber is ever worth getting one's knickers in a twist over." Cyber is very real for some people. I'm marrying the man I met on line and I'm not the only one. For us, it's just another form or reality and can be just as wonderful or just as awful as Real Life. I would suspecc that what Polly has been reading here is pretty awful indeed.

You might say that "everyone" knows that cyberland is a free-for-all, but newbies aren't everyone. They are new at this and, for my money, no one should have to be subjected to meanness and have it blown off as "only cyber." That's too good an excuse for bad manners and taking out on other what you can't do at work or at home. Newbies shouldn't be victims. I have seen newbies run off boards, most recently over at the news group for pet birds. There are several people there who live to be as viscious as possible to any poster who isn't an expert. Its easy to say what they should or shouldn't do when one has skin as tough as yours. Not all of us have it, or want to have it.

For me, this forum helped me to believe that I could make a relationship with a man 26 years my junior work. It was the place I went during those long months when we were still long distance. It was a lifeboat that kept me afloat and it was very very real. I was getting no support in Real Life. I felt alone and isolated, but I could come here and laugh and talk to people going through the same things I was. How could I possibly look back and say it was only Cyberland and meant nothing to me?

People come to this forum for one reason only. They are in a relationship with a younger man and want so reassurance that it can work out. Petty squabbles aside, it's our responsiblity as successful partners to help them understand what they need to do to make it work, or if it's time to bail on a non functional relationship. I think we are ALL pretty damn good at that. I don't think any new person looking for help has ever felt unwelcome here, and that is as it should be.

Peace,
Jane

Oww! okay! okay! I'll be kinder and gentler to newbies! You can unclench your vise grip on my earlobes, now! :-)

B.A. good reminders about what cyber can mean to some people. Most people. Whatever. I'll try to remember -- I'm sure you'll do me the favor of reminding me, yes? -- that gee, everyone doesn't see things the way I do. :-) What a concept!

I respect that this discussion board kept you afloat when you lost hope. And that you and Bear met in cyber. So it's not "nothing." That's the positive aspects of Cyberland: reaching out, and being heard and answered. I've heard of discussion boards saving someone's life, by calling in the police when they thought someone was committing suicide, or having a serious medical problem. Amazing!

But you and Bear took your relationship out of cyber. Could you have just continued cyber relating alone indefinitely? I don't think so. Didn't going real time bring you closer another notch? Need you answer? :-) Haven't all your experiences together, in the flesh -- and no, I'm not talking sex, though that's involved in the mix -- bonded you all the more to now and a future together? All the relationships that last and become committed must at some point go real time. Cyber is fine for meeting, for getting-to-know-you informational exchange. If it ends there, it ends, sooner or later.

My point (I've got hold of the scruff of this point's neck like a terrier with a rabbit, don't I?) is that the negative stuff -- meanspirited opinions, for example -- is what's not to be taken to heart. It's a bunch of strangers mostly who don't know you passing judgment because they've got a burr up their butts about something totally unrelated to you/us/whomever. Anyone who lets that demoralize them has, in my not so humble opinion, a much bigger problem than the one they are presenting to that group of strangers for advice. They need to get a grip on their own reality. And no, I don't think people aren't allowed to have self-esteem issues (who doesn't?) or need help or be desperate for feedback. But it's a matter of proportion and degree. One needs to seek support in appropriate places, and not pin all one's emotional resilience on a cyber board. Those who do really need a one-on-one therapeutic relationship to get them grounded in themselves before they can even begin to deal with the issue at hand.

Just my opinion, backed by personal experience, observation, and a lot of research into self-esteem issues. In a sentence: if a cyber board of nevermet strangers has that much power to heal or harm, something is out of whack and needs addressing. Elsewhere.

Take what is useful, and avoid what isn't. Like in Real Life (TM). :-)

The good stuff one can get in cyber surely outweighs the bad. For every meanspirited, name-calling, judgmental post, there are dozens of friendly, supportive ones cancelling it out.

"they know when I use a derogatory term, it's not to be taken seriously."

Wow, what would the world be like if everyone prefaced their actions with that disclaimer.

BTW, the theory that because someone was an abused child entitles them some sort of excuse for their behavior 30 years later? The world is made up of 2 kinds of people--those who will buy that, and those that won't. I think we've seen a little of both. This isn't Monopoly---there is no get out of jail free card. So I guess I fall into the latter category.

On a side note... I teach 2nd grade at a public school and see those "heiffer" mom's every day actually. If you haven't seen them, let me suggest a trip to the office copy room, or mailroom, or classroom down the hall. You'll find them there. They're usually the ones logging in 30 hours a week volunteering to run off our papers on the copier, sort our mail, laminate our classroom materials, volunteer to work the booths at our carnivals, decorate the auditorum on the day that your children perform, and collate/staple the monthly newsletters that go out to all our parents (both heiffer and non-heiffer alike).
AlleyCat

I volunteer regularly at my children's school. I have a first grader and a fourth grader. However I am not able to put in the 30 hours that some of the other mothers can. I work outside my home and can't give as much time as I would like. We have heiffers and non heiffers so to speak. I've been both. We got your skinny and non skinny and your in between and your pretty and drop dead gorgeous and average Sue. We got 'em all. Ain't no difference in who volunteers really. So that isn't gonna cut it.

And yes if we were talking about world leaders laying some huge trip about heiffers it wouldn't be too cool. But we're just talking about some chick named Polly who talked about heavy women at the school, might as well have been the bank, because it was clearly a generalization and not aimed at a known party. She is obsessed with her body as we all know. She was just expressing what she is afraid of - that she is gonna balloon up. She truly isn't attacking the universe of heavy women.

Cindy

#1, you misunderstood me. the "heiffer-matronly school mom" remark was made, and I felt like responding to it. She made the remark, and eluded to had we seen these type at the school. Well personally yes I have and that's where I'd seen them. Among others. But the others weren't being discussed. If the topic were 'super-model mom's at schools, hell I'd of said the same thing about that. I was responding to Polly's post. I didn't mean to imply that all volunteers are in this category LOL good lawd woman.

#2, I'm not taking a remark about overweight women personally..on the contrary I am nowhere near overweight. Nor am I in the 'universe of overweight women". Just didn't like the comment.

#3, So funny how some are allowed to post comments to their hearts content, while others who disagree with them, are not.

#4, I could care less what body image or esteem hangups some may or may not have. Hell, I just responded to a post. Trust me, I won't lose any sleep over any post, thought, comment, or 'theory" I read on the ageless love.com message board. Personally, I was just bored. Actually, come to think of it...I still am.
AlleyCat

Cindy, I almost forgot..."That isn't gonna cut it"?? cut what? I'll post what I want to post and stay within the guidelines of this message board, but I'm not gonna limit myself to what I think someone named cindy on the board thinks will "cut it". LOL. Sorry to disappoint ya.
AlleyCat

BTW, the theory that because someone was an abused child entitles them some sort of excuse for their behavior 30 years later?

i am so glad someone said this.i have been thinking this the entire time.i though about posting it and then thought,no..some would think i was starting trouble...well here goes.
enough of blaming childhood for every problem we have.wait a minute ,i am not saying we do not carry some of that with us in our lifetime,but there comes a point when we must be responsible for our own actions and not blame our past because we were not the prettiest girl in school or whatever it might of been.that is called "THE BLAME GAME"
i am sick of people that do things and say,"but i was abused as a child" ALOT OF KIDS WERE....some more then others.
now a day's people kill.(kid's do too) and say.."but daddy didn't give me enough attention" or "mommy hit me"....so i killed people because of it!!PLEEEEASE.there are people that got spanked as kids,did not get enough attention,or would told they were not pretty,they do not all go on to kill,or be mean or torture animals.
i know i may get flamed for this remark...but this is how i feel.does it mean i take child abuse lightly...give me a break..don't even go there.i repeat,I AM TIRED OF THE BLAME GAME.
i have said and done some stupid things in my life....is it because of my childhood,maybe that had some bearing on it,but after awhile you grow up and YOU take responsibility for your own actions.
as i said today on another post,this may not be politicly correct,but i have a right to my opinion and this is it.


, So funny how some are allowed to post comments to their hearts content, while others who disagree with them, are not.


i have felt like this too at times,but you know what????i just keep on posting.

Tomcat wrote:
"#3, So funny how some are allowed to post comments to their hearts content, while others who disagree with them, are not."

Wherever do you get this from? "Allowed" to post? Have you been hanging out with second graders too long, Tomcat? "He won't let me play!" Everyone is allowed to post to their hearts content, and everyone who cares enough to bother has been posting. Everyone who disagrees is posting their disagreement. Much to Kye's disgust. :-) Kye, for one, would be a much happier camper if posting actually wasn't "allowed"!

take a deep breath and a chill pill, everyone. It's a discussion. It's opinions. Degree and proportion. No reason for hurt feelings or bunched knickers.

Point missed probably because in trying to say so much I missed a salient point. Childhood abuse is never an excuse for bad behavior, or a reason it should be tolerated. But...it can help you understand where a person is coming from. We aren't talking about axe murderers here, you know.

Remember that old saw...If a child lives with criticism, she learns to condem. Well, what did Polly say? Criticism and being compared unfavorably were what she lived with, so what do you think she learned to do? She hasn't learned different because it was never an issue before except when she hurt herself by those comparisons. Knowing that about someone makes it easier to say, I do not like what you said, but I understand where you are coming from. Now, please don't do it again.

I listen, perhaps more closely than most, to what someone is saying as well as what they just said. Sometimes its the little things that tip you to what is really going on with someone. Giving support means listening, trying not to judge and somtimes, like Rhiannon said, giving a well placed boot in the butt.

So the heifer debate rages on with enough cows to fill a barn. Personally I like cows and a heifer is a *young* cow, so it's not the insult it could be. LOL

LadyInWaiting, I'm so sorry your daughter is mentally ill. Life must be so very hard for her and for you. I have a hunch you are doing a really good job with her. Don't let the world get you down. Since they aren't living with they don't have a clue.

Rhiannon, you always treat newbies well. You talk a lot tougher show than you put on. I know you have a terrific grip on reality and can seperate cyber from Real Life, but a lot of people can't because they aren't that healthy mentally. And I have to admit that if someone attacks me on a forum it still hurts, cyber or not, so I don't know what that says about my mental health.

Bella don't get me wrong, I'm glad you started this thread. I appreciate the nice things you've said about me. I try to be a pleaser and a peacemaker because that's what I became as the result of my abuse. I tend to piss people off by being too nice. You're nice too and it shows in your posts. Support forums need nice people and they need folks who tell it like it is and they need people who are funny and sometimes people who are not funny. I agree that people need to watch what they say in person and in print. As we can see, words can hurt and upset and even drive people away. *sigh*

I think we've about beat this poor heifer to death. We're even boring poor TomCat. I'd euthanize this cow and put her out of her misery and that means close the thread for them what reads between the lines. But I'm not the moddy and I don't want the job.

Peace,
Jane

hey, I know! We could all have a nice barbeque out in the yard. Then we can all get in the pond and mud wrestle off the calories so we don't get too fat. :)

OK - This is beating a very dead horse, but I'll try to sum things up in some sort of reasonable fashion (and probably fail).

I think and continue to think that Polly uses "looks" and comments about physical appearance as a not particularly subtle code to refer to a multitude of issues like self-esteem, taking care of and loving oneself, and maintaining a healthy attitude. It is obvious that she believes and it sort've defies common sense NOT to believe that the combined welter of these issues do affect one's attractiveness to a partner and the ability to sustain a healthy relationship, especially with a young guy in the prime of his life. Part of what the younger guys mean when they protest that it isn't just "looks" - is that they are attracted to and want much more than just a pretty face.

No one, male or female, wants to be objectified and summed up by strangers in a disparaging one-note comment when we are so much more than that. However there are depressed troubled people who are difficult to love and who do endanger their relationships by their inability to deal with their own problems. If I loved someone like that, I would be - and men should be - interested in what I was doing to contribute to the problem. Some men do, try very hard and are overwhelmed by the extent of the problems - and some default on their shared responsibility - assign blame - and run away.

That Polly is insecure about her looks is OK and using this board for support about aging issues is OK by me - even if it gets a bit repetitive sometimes. If she wants less flak, it would probably be a good idea to moderate her language about what she's afraid of into something more nuanced then "getting fat and ugly" because what she means is getting depressed, hopeless, un-fun, old and bitter. I'm afraid of that, too and I hope from the bottom of my heart that is NOT what aging will bring me. My seniors like Roaming, Flyer, BA and others encourage me that it ain't necessarily so. Thank you!

I was a newbie once, and frankly what I wanted was to hear that people had relationships with someone 16 years youger than themselves and it worked. I wanted to be told that I didn't have to dump him, for his sake or for my own. THAT's what mattered.
And that's what still matters.

About being insulted. Damn, I've been insulted here more times than I can count, and not just by Polly. Although if anyone remembers the WTC thread, they can SEE that I don't hold a grudge. BA used to think I was too easy on men, Nafadda thinks I want to eliminate her opinions, God knows what else I can't remember. SO WHAT.

I have a relationship with a younger guy. It makes me an honorary member of the club if I want to be. Like Cindy said, you say what you want to say and some people think you're right on and some people may think that you're an idiot, a bumpkin, a cruel harpy, whatever. If you all want my completely meaningless cyber-opinions about you, you can have them, but it isn't going to change your life one way or the other. You can tell Polly (and you have) that you think she suffers from fat prejudice. I think she does too. But you're not going to beat it out of her by typing at her. And we can't censor people or run them off because we think they should post a certain way for the good of the universe.

If it's true confession time, I smoke a half-pack of cigarettes every day. I wish I didn't. If I were a healthier, more perfect person, I wouldn't.
Perhaps I deserve to lose my guy for this total failure of self-control. Perhaps the reason I do this is because I lost my husband to cancer and it has affected my tolerance for stress and I self-medicate a bit with nicotine, and that's understandable. I dunno. But I've heard some harsh words about smokers on this board. Many things can hurt, not just "heifers" and not just Polly, and none of you are fundamentally responsible for my feelings.

It is totally impossible to bullet proof this board against all the slings and arrows that people and differing personalities dish out to one another. Take what's good and dismiss the rest as
someone else's mood, prejudice or bias. Because that's exactly what it is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by roaming
[B]Tomcat wrote:
"#3, So funny how some are allowed to post comments to their hearts content, while others who disagree with them, are not."
Wherever do you get this from? "Allowed" to post? Have you been hanging out with second graders too long, Tomcat? "He won't let me play!" Everyone is allowed to post to their hearts content, and everyone who cares enough to bother has been posting. Everyone who disagrees is posting their disagreement.

(I dont know how to do the quote thing correctly, but the above is what I am responding to.....)

I have used the wrong word..."encouraged or accepted" would have made my message clearer. So I will rephrase that. I dont feel encouraged to post my opinions unless they are in line with the majority. Don't worry I will continue to do so, despite how encouraged I might or might not feel. I hope that clears that up.

Nafadda: If you get flamed for your earlier comments, I'll go to bat wit' cha. Sometimes people need to hear a voice of reason girl!
AlleyCat

Okay, Alleycat, I hear you. You don't feel encouraged or accepted when you disagree with the majority. Those are your feelings. I have to be a voice of reason here and say that you are wrong. Not that your feelings are wrong, but that your interpretation of what's going on is wrong. That's good news!

First: there is no "majority." There are some folks who post a lot. :-) And often. :-) We have the time and the inclination. And probably the stubborn stamina. :-) It may seem as though the sheer quantity of words forms a "majority. But it just ain't so in reality.

I tend to post in cycles: I'm only in threads that interest me, and if I have time I'm in there until I feel I've done with the subject. When I don't have time or interest, I ignore. But I betcha someone will say "Roaming posts everywhere, everyday." I could prove it by a post count by date that that simply isn't true, but that's the perception. Like your perception that there is a majority.

Second: just because I or anyone here doesn't agree with someone, that in no way means they are wrong or that their opinion isn't accepted, welcomed, valid. In fact, sometimes the more I "discuss" with someone, the more what they are saying probably has my interest. If I thought their opinion valueless I simply wouldn't bother. Sometime I continue to argue because something they have said sparks a new thought in me that I hadn't fully formed before: I want to explore that line of reasoning -- for myself as much as for them.

I'm glad you're gonna keep posting despite all. Just leave the bat at little league, 'kay?

Originally posted by Tomcat
I dont feel encouraged to post my opinions unless they are in line with the majority. Don't worry I will continue to do so, despite how encouraged I might or might not feel. I hope that clears that up.

Why not? Those are the best threads, when different points of view collide. If we all agreed on everything, we'd have nothing to say. Not only are the the best in terms of the amount of discussion on them, but they give you the chance to see things through someone else's eyes. And to show them the view through your own.

And sometimes the debates can get a little acrid, particularly if it's an emotionally loaded topic. But that shouldn't discourage you from posting. The majority opinion isn't infallible.

And honestly, the forum here is pretty gentle. So count your blessings, and accept that people are going to disagree with your opinions, just as you will disagree with theirs.

That was funny. I can almost picture you harumphing and pumphing and wrangling to get your knickers outa your bottom. I'm so visual. You are pulling those knickies out and movin' on. No biggy, right?

Cindy

I'm glad you will continue to post. I hope you didn't feel that my words were meant to suggest you shouldn't post. But rather my term was only to demonstrate that your words didn't CUT IT WITH ME on that topic, not the whole freakin board. A debate, if you will, on a subject. Not the god of the posting people. I'm certainly not the moderator here, but just another poster.

I've actually not read many of your posts but I'm sure like everyone and myself you are a valuable contributor.

Write on.
Cindy

Those are the best threads, when different points of view collide. If we all agreed on everything, we'd have nothing to say.

glad you feel that way,cause' we sure are going at it on another thread,not just with you mrs.r,but i seem to be in the minority on that one over there,but i do just keep posting though,don't I.


If it's true confession time, I smoke a half-pack of cigarettes every day. I wish I didn't. If I were a healthier, more perfect person, I wouldn't.

only a half,good girl,I smoke an entire pack a day.As I said I smoke them,I don't stick them in anyones mouth and force them to smoke them.I really did not know people on here got S*** for that.
i do more physical work in a day then most woman i know.Please nobody lecture me about that.I'll call my mother if i want to hear that.

ok,i have a true confession......here goes and it is very true.I have 3 breasts,i guess that means i am not perfect,but I sure am unique.though there are others both male and female that have them.

nafadda wrote:

"<i>glad you feel that way,cause' we sure are going at it on another thread, not just with you mrs.r, but i seem to be in the minority on that one over there</i>"

And being "the minority" over there bothers you so much you've taken to complaining that more than two people who don't happen to agree with you are a "clique." It's ONE thread. So you're disagreed with. I'm disagreed with all the time. [shrug] Don't take it so personally.

How come you don't call the more than two people who DO agree with you "a clique"?

no,no,no,the "clique"thing came to me today in the form of a private email,I agreed that i had felt that from the begining,but it never stoped me from posting.
bother me....nah,i can hold my own quite well.i don't want to bring that post here,so all i can say is when because i disagree with the popular opinion i am refered to as a bigot,prude or closed minded,well at that point all's fair.
truely my feelings are still intact,i won't need to seek therapy for this.it takes alot more then this to bother me.

"the quieter you become the more you can hear." - baba ram dass

good. no one is trying to stop you from posting. (If I, for one, was trying, I'd just stop responding to you so you wouldn't have more to answer.) :-)

I'll adress the "clique" and the "popular" opinion nonsense in that thread if you ever start it.

But not until next week. I don't work Fridays, I don't have a computer at home; I'm outta here until Monday.

Have a great weekend everyone. Go outside and smell the new buds.
____________
"You can't solve a problem with the same mind that created it." Einstein

Originally posted by Mrs Robinson


"Why not? Those are the best threads, when different points of view collide. If we all agreed on everything, we'd have nothing to say. Not only are the the best in terms of the amount of discussion on them, but they give you the chance to see things through someone else's eyes. And to show them the view through your own."

I never said they weren't good threads Mrs. R., just that at times, I didnt feel welcome to post an opinion that differed from the majority.

Originally posted by Mrs Robinson

"And sometimes the debates can get a little acrid, particularly if it's an emotionally loaded topic. But that shouldn't discourage you from posting. The majority opinion isn't infallible. "

It doesn't discourage me. I have, and will, continue to post. I was just stating what I perceived as an unwelcomeness. I dont plan to take any action on that perception...just stating it.

Originally posted by Mrs Robinson
"And honestly, the forum here is pretty gentle. So count your blessings, and accept that people are going to disagree with your opinions, just as you will disagree with theirs. "

I know they are...that was my entire point on another thread. That we all (Including myself) have opinions and visitors to a site should feel welcome to contribute to the board without being called a prude or a bigot, or other insults hurled their way, when doing so. You are preaching to the choir.
AlleyCat
PS As far as a new member (posting or lurker) feeling unwelcome to post their thoughts, It seems to me that the 'regulars' around a site, ones who have been there a while, post a lot, give it life, would want that called to their attention.

It is sad that anyone should feel that they are unwelcome or unwanted here, but it's the same in online communities as in the real world. Breaking the ice is a very daunting prospect.

But hey, it's always hard to be the new kid on the block.

This is a good old post.