21 and scared

I need the help of people that have big differences in their ages. I think I am falling in love with a 52 year old man, I am 21.

Here's the beginning of my story. I work at a country club for the golf course. There is a group of 3 guys that play lots of golf, one is the 52 y/o, one is 45, one is 48, they are all married. The 48 y/o was having problems with his wife and they all flirt with me all the time. While they were split he asked me to go on a fishing trip with him - he has tons and tons of money. I did - just for the ride, but I didn't know all three of them would be there AND they didn't know I was going to be there. Anyhow, soon after we got there, the 45 and 48 y/o started all of this sexual stuff, like group stuff. I played and had a really awesome night, I had sex with all three of them. Really wild 3 days, never thought anything serious would develop.

Anyhow, when we got home, the 52 y/o came up to me (alone)and told me that he felt bad and did he take advantage of me? I couldn't believe how sensitive he was and that he would have cared. We started talking and he realized how confused my whole life is and that I didn't have a serious guy. I have so much fun with him, we talk about everything, and he is always saying nice things to me. He makes me feel so safe and good.

We've been sneaking around for months now and I'm thinking that I really like him. The sex is wonderful, he loves to take his time with me, he kisses me all the time. His wife doesn't listen to him or excite him. He says that he doesn't want to hurt his family, his daughter is my age and away at school, but that I have touched something in him that he has never felt. Could that be true? Could something like this really work out or should I just forget it and move on? Since I've gotten to know him I don't even want to go out with my friends, especially guys my age. I think I'm going crazy!

This sounds like a troll, but on the off-hand chance that it isn't I'll respond seriously.

Girl, this doesn't have a thing to do with age gaps. Here's the situation. Three married men took advantage of you and you allowed it. So one of them said afterwards that he felt bad and that suddenly makes him some wonderful guy? This guy is married. Period. End of story. Do you know what his marriage is like? No. You only know what he has told you, and he doesn't sound like the most honest and trustworthy person in the world, now does he? Why do you think you can believe every word he says if the woman he promised his life to cannot? If he says he doesn't want to hurt his family he is either a liar or an idiot. I cannot think of many things more hurtful than being betrayed by someone you have promised you love and loyalty to. Do you honestly think there is something magical about you that will make him faithful? Get out of this now before you become this guy's next victim, and before you become part of a really nasty divorce.

Katie,

Youre worried about falling in love with an older man??? I'd say there was more of a problem when you gang banged 3 MARRIED, OLDER men.

Im not even going to begin preaching to you that love and mutual respect between and man and a younger woman can, and truly does exist, becuase unfortunately its people like YOU that make us look like we are airy fairy and easily manipulated little trollups.

Im sorry if I come across as harsh, but I think you have a huge amount of growing up to do, to agree to allow 3 men to take advantage of you like that makes me sick. Further, the fact that the man in question approached you alone afterward means that he enjoyed the shag and wanted more, thats ALL, so as far as Im concerned "something like this" could NOT work out as this is nothing but a convenient shag for him - all he has to do is say to his wife that he's going for a round of golf.....ssssssplennnndid.

The majority of us here have fought so hard for our relationships
and we can all share with you the joy and ecstacy, as well as the anger and frustrations, that come with being in love with somebody much older or younger than you...but this is not that. This is just about sex.

Its simple: the man is MARRIED. You should stop seeing him right away and learn a little self respect.

M

Ouch. I'm feeling really bad about what I have done.

Let me say that I didn't not feel taken advantage of at all and I haven't thought he was being dishonest, he hasn't promised me anything. Maybe I'm as stupid as I sound. If this isn't a relationship, I haven't had one yet. Yes, it did start out with sex (and not even romantic sex), but that is not all it is now.

Thanks for the advice. I don't think I can just walk away from this, but I guess I should try.

Originally posted by katie
He says that he doesn't want to hurt his family, his daughter is my age and away at school, but that I have touched something in him that he has never felt. Could that be true? Could something like this really work out or should I just forget it and move on? Since I've gotten to know him I don't even want to go out with my friends, especially guys my age. I think I'm going crazy!

Its way too late for him to worry about hurting his family. He may well have already passed disease's to his Wife for one. He has already thrown that caution into the wind.

And as for this working out ROFLMAO! Well then again If you enjoy being with a man that has no problems with group sex behind your back with others, or have no problems with lying cheating and deceit all being part of your life from here on out. Well then Sure I see this working just fine for you!

Do us all a favor Troll or not........Get your life together and think before you act. But Yes obviously you need to move on (and stop being with married men)

Don

If you can't walk away then it really doesn't sound like you feel bad about what you've done. It sounds like you feel bad that no one is going to tell you to do whatever makes you happy regardless of the consequences.

So you don't feel like you were taken advantage of? Well then I would say there is a major problem with you if you think it is just fine and dandy to have sex with three (3!) married men at the same time. I don't know how much stupidity has to do with this, but extreme immaturity and selfishness are certainly at play on both sides. He may not have been dishonest with you yet. Heck, he's given you more consideration than his wife. At least you know (maybe) how many women he's sleeping with right now. She has no idea.

I can't believe you honestly came here wanting us to encourage this abhorrent, irresponsible behavior.

Katie.. You were taken advantange hon..... This is NOT LOVE..... They TRICKED you first thinking only one of them was going to be there then three of them showed up ... and then you had sex with them in many ways..... oh dear...... This is not love... If you continue this it is your decision but I assure you .. you are making the worst decision of your entire life... Life is to short.... you need to build up some self eesteem here hon....

Also regardless that you were treated like a piece of meat.. these guys are MARRIED... no matter what there situations are THEY ARE MARRIED... now they all committed adultery and you are the one in the middle here.. Think about how you would feel if it was your husband doing this....

get out now while you can....

Originally posted by katie
While they were split he asked me to go on a fishing trip with him - he has tons and tons of money.

Sorry but I doubt if Katie is doing much thinking at all myself!
Maybe some guilt/confusion now, but thinking?

I know I'm being horribly harsh here, but this situation is just so far from reality, and she seems to have no clues of that. She is NOTHING but a BOOTY CALL for him. He is never going to leave his wife for her.

Don

Meralove, thank you for your kindness.

I didn't expect encouragement on this board, or all the hostility. I am just confused and thought somebody might understand and explain my interest in this man to me. I don't have anyone I can talk to - my mom and my friends would not understand. You act like I'm some kind of freak, but I didn't grow up thinking I would consider wanting a man 30 years older than me.

The adultery never entered my mind when I went on that trip, it was recreation for me. By the way, in the real world that kind of stuff happens all the time and nobody gets worked up over it. The fact that I now want something more than a constant party is shocking to me. But, if this is love, it is way too heavy for me.

Don,
That's my point exactly. It started out as a 'booty call' and has developed into something real.

First things first....

What you did was a stupid thing. The sex with all three of them...POOR decision....

However, as I have stated here before, we ALL have made poor choices at some point, and we will ALL make them again. Your choice might be a bit extreme for some of us to handle, but the basic fact is: it was a bad decision.

And Why did you make that choice? What is your sexual history before this? I know that is a personal question, and you don't have to answer for US...answer it for YOU. What kind of involvements have you had before? Were they beneficial to you? Did you feel good about yourself afterward?

What I'm getting at here, sweetie, is a real lack of respect for yourself. Do you consider yourself a worthy person? It doesn't appear so, to me. Hon, you ARE better than that...you ARE worth more than that.

Get it together, get some counseling, get smart about who you are and what you are worth. Because the actions you are taking, the choices you are making, in the end you will pay the price. And it's a BIG price. Any self worth you have will be lost.

SECOND point: THIS IS NOT LOVE!

Love is all about mutual respect (how much does he respect you if he gang-banged you with his pals?)

Love is all about honesty (HE'S MARRIED!! Not much honesty here.)

What you have is infatuation...he's there, he gives you attention, he makes you feel good...and then, HE GOES HOME TO HIS WIFE!

Get out of it! Get yourself together....

And maybe, maybe, try to make better decisions in the future.

I will repeat this slowly. This...has...nothing...to...do...with...age.

And the fact that you think this sort of thing happpens all the time in real life with no consequences tells me you probably watch too many FOX reality shows.

This is not an adultery support site. Your situation would be exactly the same regardless of his age or your age. I can't explain your interest in this man. I don't understand it my self, though your preoccupation with money might hold a clue. If it had been me I would never have accepted an invitation on some married guy's boat. By the way, he set that up, honey. If you actually don't think they all knew what was going to happen, then you are extremely naive.

Originally posted by katie
The adultery never entered my mind when I went on that trip, it was recreation for me. By the way, in the real world that kind of stuff happens all the time and nobody gets worked up over it. The fact that I now want something more than a constant party is shocking to me. But, if this is love, it is way too heavy for me.

Katie,

Yes it does happen, but please please understand. When this guy is telling you his wife doesn't understand him like you do, or that he doesn't want to hurt his daughter.

But you just don't get that he's playing you so badly!

I know from experience, my first love kept from me for 2 months the fact that she was MARRIED. Then when I did find out she swore her husband didn't understand her, that it was ME that she loved. That we were going to build a life together as soon as the time was right.....all the lines to just keep me one the 'side' and not really her only man.

Bottom line is......she NEVER left him! She is with him to this day and I often see her out with her newest boy toy of the season.

If ....and I say If this man was serious about you he would leave his wife and come to you, not tomorrow, not next week, not next month/year. But NOW before he drags your heart through the gutter.

I know his words mean so much to you, I know he looks at you with such sincerity you can never doubt him, I know theres a million and one excuses why he just can't leave right now......Because I've been there!

Katie believe me when I tell you, all you will ever have with this man is to be his fling on the side if you choose to stay in the shadows with him.

Don

Katie this has NOTHING to do with age and loving someone older than you... this has to do with an Older man Taking ADVANTANGE OF A YOUNGER NIEVE WOMAN.......

I don't want to be rude... but what are you thinking???? Seriously... don't you see how bad this is??? or are you that nieve that you actually think this is love.... Your emotions are way to high and your NOT thinking straight.. GET THE HELL AWAY FROM THESE GUYS ALL OF EM!!

Well All...I'm shocked that no one wanted to know if Katie practiced safe sex! Three men...married....do you know how many other mistresses are out there?! Katie, I hope for your sake that you were safe.

Now let me chime in my two cents. Alas I am not proud of some of my past experiences...but as larasteele said....we ALL make poor decisions in life, but you HAVE to learn from them!

After my ex (not the OM) and I broke up, I was sad and lonely. My roommate at the time worked for D (my ex OM) and she asked me to go to the restaurant one night. She wanted me to meet her manager. He was a cutie! He was 28 (I was 21 at the time) and she introduced us. HE WAS MARRIED....and at the point in my life I had really low self-esteem and I didn't care. We exchanged Yahoo! i.d's and began chatting. His wife was a flight attendant so she was gone all the time. One night he invited me over to watch a movie. We messed around...but nothing serious.

A few weeks after that he invited me again...and it went too far. I didn't care at the time, I was having fun and 'living my youth', but afterward I felt terrible. I was starting to like the guy...but he was a NEWLYWED! There was no way he was going to leave his wife. He is still married to this day. He has a part time job as a flight attendant and sleeps with everyone possible. I was just another notch on his bed post. It made me feel cheap and gross. You learn your lessons, and make better choices because of them.

Do yourself a favor and open your eyes. If I had allowed myself to 'fall in love with him' I would have been living his fantacy and a HUGE LIE...towards myself.

I am not trying to come off harsh, but I've been there. It's the thrill of being wanted, it's new, exciting and a rush...but THAT FADES QUICK!

I agree with all the other posts about this subject. Respect yourself, chalk it up to experience and move on.

EM

Em, about whether it was safe sex or not (not that there is such a thing really...) I just assumed it wasn't.

I need to clear up something. "S", my guy, is NOT the one with the money and NOT the one that set up the trip. His friend asked me to go on the trip. S has not ever had an affair before and did not know I was going to be there, he says he wouldn't have gone on the trip if he had known. I have not had anything else to do with the friend or the other guy since the trip - except we chat when I see them.

Leave his wife? Right now I would die if he did. THAT'S WHY I AM HERE. Wondering why I would consider hooking up with someone and give up ever having kids and being normal. MY feelings, not his. Is this really such a hard question? I know why he would want me, he does love my body and yeah it is hard and tight, but he likes that I am not scared to have fun. Lots of people around here have trophy girls, but what we have is private.

Too many reality shows? I rarely watch television, I'm out living my life! Am I the youngest person on this board or something or just the only one that's not "imprisoned by marriage or love"? It is not uncommon at all to have pick up sex in a group with no strings.

And yeah, this relationship stuff with S is all about age to me. So far, I haven't made a bad decision, that's what I want to avoid.

has not ever had an affair before and did not know I was going to be there, he says he wouldn't have gone on the trip if he had known. I have not had anything else to do with the friend or the other guy since the trip - except we chat when I see them.

I really hope you don't believe him. Honestly, do you think that you're the only one? And if he didn't know you were going on the trip, and he wouldn't have gone if he had known you were there...then why did he partake in the festivities? I think you might want to take off the blind fold!

Originally posted by katie
So far, I haven't made a bad decision, that's what I want to avoid.

Well in that case Katie, you are sadly going down a path in your life where you will probably never return from.

I'd say best of luck......but with your choices...thats not going to happen. Sorry but I'm done with this thread!

Don

Originally posted by katie
I need to clear up something. "S", my guy, is NOT the one with the money and NOT the one that set up the trip. His friend asked me to go on the trip. S has not ever had an affair before and did not know I was going to be there, he says he wouldn't have gone on the trip if he had known. I have not had anything else to do with the friend or the other guy since the trip - except we chat when I see them.

Great that its not about the money.... Well if he wouldn't of gone on the trip if he knew... when you got there and the "sexual"act started why did he continue and not say hey this is not right?.. Why didn't he PROTECT YOU instead he VIOLATED YOU along with the other two and you seem to think that is NOT a mistake...well wrong.. That was a HUGE mistake....

Leave his wife? Right now I would die if he did. THAT'S WHY I AM HERE. Wondering why I would consider hooking up with someone and give up ever having kids and being normal. MY feelings, not his. Is this really such a hard question? I know why he would want me, he does love my body and yeah it is hard and tight, but he likes that I am not scared to have fun. Lots of people around here have trophy girls, but what we have is private..[/B]

why would you die if he left his wife???? you should feel only that you should get away as fast as you can!!!!!!He is MARRIED......... THIS IS A MISTAKE....



And yeah, this relationship stuff with S is all about age to me. So far, I haven't made a bad decision, that's what I want to avoid. [/B]

If this relationship is JUST about age.. than it is not right... I love my husband for who he is and not about our 17 year age difference... I am 28 and he is 45.... and I LOVE HIM not his age...

Honey you are so confused and seriously you have got very low self esteem and you seriuosly need to maybe seek some counseling....

Wow, I am shocked. Still thinking about having sex with 3 guys on one weekend. I am thinking and not sure what to say to that wihtout sounding like your mother. As far as the 52 year old thats married. Don't get involved with a married man. Thats should be rule number one for men or women. Never never ever get involved with people who are married. It never works, even if they tell you that there spouses are boring or what ever nonsense they can thin of.
Katie wake up and smell the coffee. Yes, OK we all may be attracted to older men and if you are thats fine. It just sounds like to me that this guy just wants to get it on with a young girl but, he doesn't want to hurt his family at the same time. That raises a big question mark for me. Do yourself a favor and forget about this guy.
Let me ask you another question. How do you face these guys after having sex with all three of them? I am sorry that just blows my mind.

*edited for excessive b!tchiness*

I want to thank all of you, I get the feeling that you are sincere.

You have made me think of things I never even considered. There are things that I have to think out and it seems obvious that I need to cut it off with S to do that. That's where I'm headed right now.

Originally posted by katie
And yeah, this relationship stuff with S is all about age to me. So far, I haven't made a bad decision, that's what I want to avoid.

Okay, Katie. I'm not sure if anyone has said it yet but WELCOME TO THE AGELESS LOVE board, Sweetie. I hope you enjoy hanging out here with us. I'm Guy and the self appointed Chosen1 to be one of the many AL Smartass of the board. And let me tell you here and now that I AM NOT here to flame you in any way, shape, form, or fashion as many of my fellow (usually friendlier) Ageless Lovetts have done in the previous posts. LOL

Now I'll let you in on a secret. In referrance to your situation.....BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, AND STILL GOT THE BATTLE SCARS from it. Only in my case of course, I was the married man.

I was involved in several relationships when I was married and Katie, I'm here to tell you that there is no way in living hell will he ever leave his wife and family. Think about it, what have he got to lose? His family? His wife? Half of his worth in alimony and/or child support? Guess again. Unless he can afford it, it'll never happen.

Again, not to flame you but having a gangbang with this guy and his 2 friends was not a great idea. Personally, I don't see him taking your relationship serious. Afterall, he's already seen you "bang" his 2 friends. And to rationalize it, just answer this question. HOW OFTEN DO YOU TWO GO OUT AND NOT HAVE SEX? And have it been in public? I have a friend (same age as my YW) whom I met online and she used to tell me about her dates with her boyfriend every evening. And it always involved having sex with him. When I asked her how often they went out without having sex, she couldn't answer. I suggested that she should go out a few times without having sex and see if they still get along well. Guess what? They broke up a month later. REASON? He no longer had any interest in her or the relationship. In fact, the bastard hurt her and told her that he was with her in hopes to "hook up" with her older sister instead.

So I don't want to hurt you but don't hold your breath on having a real relationship with this guy.

Wow, so much going on here, where do I even start?

First of all, I'm more than a little disappointed. The members of this board are usually so much more supportive than this, even when dispensing the tough advice. A lot of the advice here has been pretty solid, but as we've had discussions about on another thread recently, watch the tone, guys. She's here looking for help, not to get chewed out.

Now, on to my advice for Katie.

First of all, you're here on a board called "ageless love." Every single person here is going to tell you that the age difference doesn't matter worth squat, and if that were the only issue, we'd all, without exception, tell you to go for it. Don't believe me? Go read some past threads.

As far as the group sex goes (which seems to be a major objection for a lot of people here), well, hey, whatever floats your boat. Personally, I could never do that, and I don't think I could ever date anybody who did, either (unless it was one of those way in the deep past and I've since changed my mind things). But if that's the way you want to live your life, hey, consenting adults and all, right? Whatever. So long as nobody gets hurt.

Read that again. So long as nobody gets hurt. I'm sure that you're smart enough to see the problem yourself if you think about it. Those three guys were married, and their wives and families are the ones getting hurt by what you did. Not because group sex or being nonmonogomous is immoral, but because those guys made solemn vows to be faithful to their wives, and now they have broken their promises.

It's not your fault that they cheated on their wives. And if they were willing to have group sex with you there, then I can guarantee that it was not the first extramarital sex for any of those three guys. A guy who's having his first affair is not going to do it as a group sex activity. All three of those guys are shamelessly looking for people to use for sex, and you're the one who happened to be there.

Does that mean that you've been "used"? Well, think about it for a minute. There are basically two alternatives. You were either used, or you were a willing and knowing partner to an adulterous affair. Not pretty choices are they?

This guy who's coming after you now, he doesn't love you. He's not looking for a "trophy". He wants easy, no strings attached sex. I wouldn't have any problems with that, either, except for two things. For one, he's married. Do you really want to be a part of ruining his family? If you really love him, you'll let him work out his family problems, and then, if he does finally get divorced, forge a relationship with him. Again, if you really love him, then you'll let him go if he doesn't get divorced, too.

The other problem is that he's almost certainly lying through his teeth about his intentions. He tells you he respects you and feels bad for what he did. Well, if he felt that way, if he really cared about you, then he wouldn't continue to string you along in an extramarital affair. He'd tell you exactly what I just did - to wait until he got everything straightened out, and then you'd see where things went.

And finally... This is a hard pill to swallow sometimes, especially in a 21st century American culture that preaches to us to all just do what feels good, but all of our actions have consequences. Every single one of them. And before you embark on this path you have to ask yourself, do you really have the right to destroy the lives of an entire family for the sake of your own happiness?

I read back through all the posts on this thread and I really don't think I or anyone else was flaming her. I am not, however, going to take the attitude that this is some poor innocent girl who is being wronged by an evil older man. She is an adult and has to accept the reality and responsibility of the situation she helped create.

I agree with Rhad that consentual sexual activity that does no harm to anyone else is fair game. Everyone on this board should know I'm not a prude. I did not address that because that is not what happened here. It's the same as if someone came on and said they were sleeping with a minor. I wouldn't discuss whether it would be okay if they were of age, because that is not the situation.

Could something like this really work out or should I just forget it and move on?

This is the question she asked in her first post, and this is the question we all answered. She showed, through her subsequent posts (until the last one perhaps), that she is unwilling to listen to that advice. That tells me that she came on here merely wanting us to support the bad decision she has made.

There has never been any tolerance around here for infidelity. The situation that has been described in this thread is an affront to my (and many other people's) value systems. I'm sorry if it came off as a flame, but I feel everyone has the right to express themselves here. I felt that it would take more than a kind word and a pat on the back to get through the thick wall of denial she has built up.

Young lady, I'd have many many harsh and unpleasant things to say to you....if I didn't deep down feel so bad for you. You are so naive, so much more naive than many other people on the boards that are your age or even younger, that it makes me wince to read your posts. I don't know who lied to you and told you that "pick-up" group sex is common or acceptable. It's not a frickin' basketball game, sweetheart, it's letting men take advantage of you, swap bodily fluids with you, and you should know damn well that they are thanking their lucky stars that you were so easy. How many 21-year olds are stupid enough to have group sex with 3 men old enough to be her father? If you were having group sex with three men your age that manipulated you, that would be disgusting enough. I'd assume you were planning to have sex with at least the one gentelman who invited you, because you are 21, not 12, and you knew that was part of the deal. But then you're surprised by the other two, and that's OK with you? Why is having sex with one married man OK with you? Why do you allow yourself to be toyed with? Are you so starved for attention that the flirtations of middle-aged bored men with children your age are enough to make you feel special? I'm a ****tail waitress, and I get lame flirtations all the time from older men. Most of them are harmless, but I do have ears when they think I'm not listening, and they're saying the exact same things about every girl who walks by. If you're young and you have an ***, chances are an older man who is out from his wife's watch will flirt with you. It's not special; it's not anything to write home about. It's lame. You're lame. You're out there ****ting around with older married men, thinking you're special and you're tough enough to handle yourself with these older guys, but you're making a fool of yourself. A foolish ***** of yourself, in fact. You give younger women a bad name.

If all these things you've been reading hurt your pride, GOOD. I'll congratulate you on that point- at least you feel from the words of others what you should have heard from yourself. Try respecting your self and your body for a change. Ix-nay on the pick-up group sex, which is completely absurd!!! You can get hurt, and I'll bet you already are.....you're just not grown up enough to admit it yet. Don't take this as us telling you that you can't handle yourself sexually, or with older men. You can- you're just not doing it correctly. Don't let other people convince you how to use your sexual power. It's yours alone until you start giving it away. Married men are poison. Even if he's not in love with his wife, he's not leaving, and you deserve better than spending the best years of your life waiting for the phone to ring, waiting for his signal......don't be a kept concubine. If you want to be treated like a woman, act like one.

Originally posted by Rhadamanthus
First of all, I'm more than a little disappointed. The members of this board are usually so much more supportive than this, even when dispensing the tough advice. A lot of the advice here has been pretty solid, but as we've had discussions about on another thread recently, watch the tone, guys. She's here looking for help, not to get chewed out.

Rhad,

Your right I was overly harsh with this young woman.

You may have understood by my later posts that it was because I personally went through being played by a married lady. It does not excuse my original outbursts and rage, but when I see somebody about to have their life as turned upside down as mine was at 18 I want to scream!

I only wish somebody had been there at that time to scream at me and opened my eyes to what was to come. When I see people being taken advantage of by a married person it strikes a cord, and when I see people being beaten it strikes a cord.

Thats why I just decided it was time for me to step away from this thread.

Don

Wow. This is really frightening. I guess I'm concerned that there are people out there (and yes, I do know it, but geesh) who will knowingly be the other woman and not even care about the guy's wife.

Let's just focus here on his wife. Is she a nice person? The mother of his child? His partner? Has she sacrificed for the relationship? Probably yes to all of the above at one time or another. Now, as to verifiable information about their present situation, I would say its zero. All you have is whatever S tells you. For all you know, he's bringing her roses every night and planning their anniversary party.

What he is doing is immoral because he is cheating on his wife. But what you are overlooking here, is that what you are doing is immoral too, by basically stabbing this innocent woman in the back when she has never done a thing to you. Why? I just don't think its worth it.

As for wanting to be in a commited, loving relationship with someone who is older, that is definitely not weird or immoral, but frankly, I don't think you're ready for it, and I don't think that is what he is looking for either.

As you can see, I really don't care about the group sex thing. If that is what you want to do with consenting, non-married people, then great for you. But the fact remains here that this man is married. You said you didn't view him as being dishonest, but I think you're way wrong on that point...he is definitely lying to his wife, and he's probably lying to you.

My advice: start with treating other people how you would like to be treated. Put yourself in someone else's shoes, or do whatever it takes for you to realize that you should never be involved with anyone who is married. period. I mean, how would you feel if you were his wife???

Katie, I don't want you to feel like I'm being harsh here, and I think I have been less so than others. I just want you to think this out a little more clearly. You are better than this. You must be.

Emmie

Rolls, I respect your integrity a lot for stepping up to the plate on that one. Please keep in mind, too, that it wasn't my intention to slam anybody here - just to bring us back to the realm of giving reasonable advice so that we can help this young woman out, instead of driving her off. And like I said, too, it wasn't that the advice people are giving here is bad - it's overwhelmingly good advice. We just need to be careful how we phrase it, both to keep from hurting her even more than she already has been and because she's more likely to actually listen to us if we're not talking down to her or berating her.

By and large, this board is very good at doing exactly that.