Non-sensical rant about negative self-talk

I am putting this in the relationship section because I am sort of thinking about how our self-image relates to our ability to form part of a successful couple...

A lot of times, I read on here (or people have told me) stuff like, "You need to learn to (fill in blank -- love yourself, relax, enjoy spending time alone)" and we internalize these things. I know when people say stuff like that, they are trying to be helpful. But I think it really isn't.

We've established fairly well the fact that we can't expect our significant others to change. Well, this applies to us as well -- how can we expect ourselves to change? We can grow and develop as people, but we can't just change overnight. I think a lot of people expect that they can do just that -- miraculously change overnight.

I'm not thinking of any specific incident I've read about here lately at all. Just in general, this sort of remark comes up a lot.

How this relates to relationships: a lot of people on here ask stuff like, "Should it bother me when (s)he does this/that?" and then people say stuff like, "No, you have to learn to relax" or whatever. Well, that's not really fair! If it bothers you, it bothers you. Whether or not it SHOULD bother you is irrelevant. I think we use that to excuse unacceptable behaviour. "Should it bother me that my boyfriend likes to stay out all night every night at the bar?" "No, it shouldn't bother you." Oh, there must be something wrong with me because it really does bother me that he does that. Okay, I will continue to put up with this, even though I am losing sleep over it and it's really troubling me.

We can't expect ourselves to change that way. We must be fair to ourselves -- "To thine own self be true" and all that rot.

This is a sort of pointless rant. Sorry for the rambling. But this really bothers me (when people say stuff like, "You shouldn't feel this way or that way"). I don't expect responses. I just needed to put this down.

I do see where you are coming from.

In relationships, it might be 'best' for the participants to be

'2 peas in a pod'.

I have 2 friend in Fla. who are like that. They have been married for years. They are as happy as '2 peas in a pod'.

If lifestyles can blend into a harmoneous concoction that is quite palateable... a good one might have been formed.

You can pour oil and water together, but they do not mix. One rises to the top;)

Pink Cat,

Yeah, I hear you girl! Emotions are free and we can all feel how we want to.... Question is, do these emotions inspire us to action?

How many guys get with women that they want to change? I think they find the woman they love "just the way she is". But women, man we are gonna change this guy into the perfect guy for us....forget about it!

I just think that women, in particular, have trouble setting boundaries with men in relationships. So rather than establishing boundaries for behaviors and how we wish to be treated , we make excuses because they are young, they are 18-21, they are fighting a war, their cat died, whatever, blah blah. And I (bold the I - the OW) was stupid because he was young, he was in college, he hadn't had sex with enough women, I made him get a job, I stole his youth. Excuse me, but EACH partner is responsible for their end of the relationship, man or woman, 18 or 80, IF they enter into it willingly. And by most accounts, I rarely see a guy in a relationship because someone held a gun to his head.

Sure we all need to grow, and from growth comes Change. But we don't need to constantly reinvent ourselves to meet the needs of the guy we are with.

I'm with you on that Pink Cat!

Nope. We can't change how we feel.

But we can always choose what to do with the feelings we have.

And if the choices we're making about these feelings are wreaking havoc in our relationship, then we may want to reconsider those choices. Sometimes.

At various times, I've felt paranoid or jealous or slighted by things that actually weren't problems at all. Just because I had feelings didn't mean they were justified or appropriate. It just means that I had them.

It's also fair to say that sometimes feelings or intuitions are right on the money.

There's no absolute law.

We have minds to help us make sense of our feelings and emotions to help us
listen to ourselves when we rationalize too much.

It's always a good idea to pay attention to both :>

Good post Desert Spring. I was just going to say that. So...read what she said. There is a lot of truth to it...I try to teach that to the teens I work with - you do have some control in how you respond to emotions and also you truly do have control in how you feel about things...it's all a matter of your perspective.

Thanks for the responses, everyone!!! :D

Originally posted by Desert Spring
Nope. We can't change how we feel.

But we can always choose what to do with the feelings we have.

And if the choices we're making about these feelings are wreaking havoc in our relationship, then we may want to reconsider those choices. Sometimes.


I definitely agree with this. You are right, a person can choose to react the way he/she wants to, but there is a certain point at which we need to stop choosing to act a certain way, where we have to realize that we must be honest with ourselves. A balance is needed. I'm just thinking that in some cases, if something is really making a person miserable, it's more a sign that the relationship is a bad fit than that the person needs to change the way he/she is dealing with his/her feelings.

Having said that, I also think, on the other side of the coin, that I for one need to work on things within myself, such as not taking every little thing he says or does personally. But if it got to the point, hypothetically speaking, where I was constantly miserable and upset, even if it didn't make sense to other people, I would have to admit that the relationship was a bad one for me (this is hypothetical... I think what I have going on with my YM is actually pretty great).

Yep, there's nothing quite like having your feelings denied.

My ex b/f used to drive me absolutely nuts saying to me, "You shouldn't feel that way" all the time. All that did was push me into an adversarial position where I would then try to justify myself -- often by exaggerating the importance of the original incident. That's a great way to escalate an argument. Far better for him to have validated my feelings, so we could have moved on from there to a constructive discussion.

Yes, your feelings are real -- as long as you express them as your own feelings, and don't project onto someone else that they "make you feel" a certain way. And feelings call for some exploration as to what they are really saying to you. In your example, the person who is bothered by the b/f staying out drinking every night should be asking, "What am I really feeling? Am I afraid that he is cheating on me? Am I afraid his drinking is turning into alcoholism?", and that should suggest a course of action to deal with the identified problem.

There are things about myself I can't and won't change. I just got to the conclusion that if I am that way, it's because I find it right, I agree totally with myself and it would be a big lie to change just to please society or a partner.

One thing is that I'm jealous. I don't consider myself to be too jealous, sickly jealous, I'm just jealous. I don't want to see my partner going out with other women, especially alone, even if he tells me there are no intentions behind it. Unless he has a good professional reason, he won't have the chance to do it a second time.

I don't want to discuss about this with anyone, but when I love a man, I tell him from the beginning how I am concerning jealousy. I tell him I won't change that and it's up to him to decide whether he can be the man for me or not.

I consider I'm flexible enough with other aspects of relationships, but some things I just can't change. Like not standing smoke. So I don't stand people who make me jealous.

In this case it's either my way or none. Not with me.

So excuse me if this isn't germaine

BUT, I went to a counselor during one relationship because the guy would not stop talking about past relaeionships and it was driving me nuts.

The bottomline, what she told me is this... if someone cares about you, it doesn't matter if your concerns are "founded" or not. The important thing is that he respects your feelings and deals with them. Not to the point where he is not being true to himself of course, but in my example he kept telling me I "shouldn't care" that he talked about his exes all the time. He even came into the counselors office where she chewed him a new .... let's just say she chewed him out. She told me she personally wouldn't mind a boyfriend talking about exes all the time but the fact that I did mind he should have respected.

Some people try to un validate your feelings. No, that is wrong. They are your feelings and a caring person respects that.

My current boyfriend has a friend that is a woman that he goes out with. I asked him why doesn't he date her? He said are you the jealous type? I said no, I figure you had plenty of time to "be" with her if that's what you wanted, I just wondered why she was not someone you wanted to date. He told me why. But they will continue to be friends. And that is fine with me. I will meet her soon.

Edit: ok I went back and read and the setting boundaries thing struck me because that same counselor said I was bad at doing that and yes I agree. STOP telling me something shouldn't bother me when it does. No we can't change overnight and maybe later those things wouldn't bother us but for now it does and IT MUST BE RESPECTED.

I think the problem comes when you try to make someone who is outside of your boundaries fit within them. I guess I just don't understand why we don't kick them to the curb more often. Go on to someone that doesn't do those things. Some men I used to know used to go to strip bars. That is outside my boundary. I just said , well go on then, but you won't date me. They protested that I was kitty whipping them. I said no, you are free to do whatever you want, you just can't date me.

That is the proper attitude.

Originally posted by swanqueen
So excuse me if this isn't germaine

BUT, I went to a counselor during one relationship because the guy would not stop talking about past relaeionships and it was driving me nuts.

She told me she personally wouldn't mind a boyfriend talking about exes all the time but the fact that I did mind he should have respected.

Some people try to un validate your feelings.

I think the problem comes when you try to make someone who is outside of your boundaries fit within them.

That is the proper attitude.

The only people who are allowed to unvalidate your feelings are your mother and your best pal. No one else! I believe your therapist would have seen the fact that your old bf was talking about his ex'es as an opportunity to sway his heart towards her. Open and uncritical listening can do wonders! I think that the discussion on boundaries and setting healthy boundaries is a great one.

Aren't we all here because we are somewhat outside of the normal range of dating values? Especially ow/ym, isn't a traditional value. And we are coming to grips with the fact that the age difference isn't easy to deal with at times. YM are so fickle, and here we are OW who want them to have a grounded relationshp. I've begun to think perhaps I won't get what I truly want and need in a relationship with a ym. Anyone else feel the same way?

Have another thought though.

I think when people say, it shouldn't bother you, or don't let it get to you, its because they want you see your feelings from a different angle.

For women especially who are big analyzers of feelings and relationships on a whole. We worry ourselves sick about so and so being at work/bar/with another women who was his friend before you came in the pic/exs/children/being in age-gap relationships/jealousy and so on and so on.

You ask a very good question, how are we expected to change. My answer, certainly not overnite, but you can start with one attribute and make it a part of you, until it becomes second nature. Like Maria's jealousy...(I'm just using you as an example, Maria, from my perspective) so many of us would not put up with jealousy in our relationships with men because we find it a little unsettling not to be trusted and because eventually it gets old and frustrating.

Can she learn to not be jealous, of cause, does she want to, she says she doesn't, is it an attractive trait, not at all. No matter how small, it shows a lack of belief in your love for yourself or the other person. Yes, you love you SO, but you don't believe in him/her when they are outside of your comfort zone. Is this unsettling, possibly for Maria, is it an attack on her feelings, no, its an awareness to see all angles to an equation.

We all do some measure of change and/or adaption within our relationships. The thing about change is that, if Maria changes, will she change to adapt to her relationship, or will he consider her feelings and not put himself in a position where her jealousies will surface, then the question is, are we accepting our partners as they are, or do we require some measure of change to suit our characters and personalities. I say we do and we're not really accepting of our partners for who or what they are to some extent.

As Savannah stated below, there are questions that have to be asked of oneself to determine our reasons behind our feelings.

I think when we quote "to thine own self be true", i don't believe it means to throw our feelings out there to control a guy or a situation to our favour. I believe it means to find the very best of yourself and let that shine forth as it is your best self which people will be attracted to.

Paris

Swan, excellent post!!!

I too, get tired of hearing, "You shouldn't be so jealous!" by Robin. You know what? I shouldn't be, really. He's never done anything to make me suspicious, but my jealousy comes from years of dating and a bad marriage. I know what guys are capable of.

I do want to make a point though, in the other direction. My jealousy was virtually Robin's and my only problem. He wanted to go out with the guys sometimes, and I just HATED it! I never started a fight or anything, but I was "cold" when he was getting ready to leave. I was pretty much always invited along, but because of my kids, I couldn't always go. The guys didn't always go to bars either, in fact, more often than not, they'd just meet up at a buddy's house. Anyway, as most of you know, I was recently diagnosed with a weird, rare disease that is sometimes debilitating and sometimes fatal. While I'm hoping for the best and trying to keep positive, it sure has changed my perspective on my relationship with Robin. When I got the diagnosis, Robin was so steadfast and strong! He was like, "Don't even think about that bad! Don't even go there! WE are going to get healthy, and eat right, and exercise, and find alternative medicines, and RESEARCH this thing! I won't let you just give in! I'm going to see to it that you get through this!"

I guess when something like that happens, it changes everything. I guess what I'm trying to say is, at some point, something in the relationship turns both parties involved into a "team", and there's no room for anything as trite as jealousy, mistrust, envy, anything like that. Suddenly, there are bigger fish to fry, and trivial things like, "God I HATE when he leaves his underwear on the floor!" or "If he makes me watch this stupid show ONE MORE TIME..." turn into, "God, I'm so glad I have another day on this Earth, another day to pick up his dirty underwear and watch this stupid show with him! I would really miss this, I'd miss his holding my hand while we're watching this, the scent of his hair, the way he turns over and kisses me during commercials...who the Hell cares what we're watching!!!"

I don't mean to bring everyone down, I'm just saying that yes, our feelings are valid, and to a degree, they can't be changed, and if you're with someone who totally disregards your feelings, well, he's a turd, and life's too short for that, but sometimes, maybe we're being a bit rash, and even if we can't change it, just RECOGNIZING it, does a world of good for the relationship.

All you say about jealousy makes sense to me, Paris. But as I said, I'm not an unhealthy jealous person, I just made this pact with myself that I will never pretend I am not jealous when I am.

I'm talking here about my guy going out alone with a woman, to have a drink in a bar, to have dinner, going to the movies with her. I'm not talking about lunch, or meeting by chance and spending some time at a coffee shop to talk. I would be jealous if he spent all evening talking to the same woman in a party, but not if he chatted with all women and men. Or two or three people. But not the same woman all night.

I'm giving you examples of things I had to put up with when I was younger and knew less. I have always worked in a man's world, I have travelled alone to congresses, had a thousand meals with other professionals, slept with fellow male colleagues in the same room during night shifts, I know what is work, what is not, and I know that the man I choose will face, as much as I did, people hitting on him from time to time. I am able to resist, so should be the man I want to spend the rest of my life with.

It's not like I wish I were less jealous. I have come to the conclusion I'm right, and I want someone who shares this with me, but I am conscious that some people will have different limits.

originally posted by Witchy: I've begun to think perhaps I won't get what I truly want and need in a relationship with a ym. Anyone else feel the same way?

Actually I agree, but I wouldn't make broad stroks with my brush, there are always exceptions.

At my age of 52, YM is still a potentially mature man. The YM I am currently dating is 46.

I see you here on the boards talking about your YM... and quite frankly I wonder what they have to offer you. They seem so ditzy.

Financially and emotionally immature. You support them, you train them. Ladies, why are we here?

happen all of the time.... we are always changing. However, changing the way we see things or the way we feel about things needs to come from within ourselves. No one can tell us how we WILL feel, even if they think they can tell us how we should SHOULD feel.

But, in defense of the people who try to help, it usually happens when we ask for help or ask what they would do or what they think we should do. I think when we're having a problem and are going through some doubts about something, once in a while, something someone says actually hits home and it might be just one word that will help us put some perspective on the situation.

Maria, I happen to also be the type of person who cannot understand why if someone loves me he would need to be with other women. I think that comes from our own feelings of being completely satisfied with the man we love. I don't know if I call that being jealous however. I just think its more of a need to feel secure in my relationship than it is insecurity about other women.

I think some women on here think they have a boyfriend, and what they have is not a boyfriend but a lover or 'buddy'. The guy knows this but the woman has not figured it out yet.
Like me, I know I have a lover who is 25, not a boyfriend; he adores sex with me, and I adore sex with him, plus he is adorable to hold, hug, talk to, and he feels the same way about me, he likes me, I like him...the love word has not really come up...but he is not a boyfriend...he is only 25, and has his own set of friends, and they are not my friends...they hang together at clubs and go to concerts and then afterwards we see each other...I see my girlfriends as well...boyfriends make plans for the future , hang out with their girlfriends, take them along places that they go to...if I had a boyfriend, he would be calling a lot more than he is now and he wouldn't be hanging non stop with his home boys at clubs...in fact it really doesn't bother me that I am not at the clubs with him, because I understand where he is coming from...he likes sex, I like sex, we both like sex with someone that we like (which since Sept. 3rd has been each other), but as for as seeing each other 24/7, that is not where we are...I don't want him married to me or living with me until he gets a decent job, and he knows this one...and is looking for a decent one...at the moment, I have not shut the door to talking to others...I am talking to a guy in Italy and have been for the past 3 wks, he is 48 closer to my 55...he wants to consider being my boyfriend...he wants a girlfriend , he is not from the board. With him, if we ever did meet, right now it is just two letters a day, I would consider a future because he has a decent co. that he owns, has more in common with me, and being with him would be a lifetime adventure. But I have not mandated limitations on my lover's life with regards to him telling me whom he is hanging with, and his every waking moment...he is tender hearted, mild mannered, and loves his sister and mom, treats me with respect,is loving, and always comes back...if you give the bird some freedom, and they fly back to you, they were yours anyway...they never left...Hadley...

Originally posted by PinkCat
..But this really bothers me (when people say stuff like, "You shouldn't feel this way or that way"). ..

I think you are right in saying that invalidating someone's feelings is disrespectful, and that feelings are just that - feelings; there is no right or wrong, really, you feel the way you do or you don't.

I think this "invalidation" - albeit showing disrespect - is not so much an issue of the person invalidated - even though they are the ones getting hurt/frustrated by the comments of course and they MIGHT have an issue; but indicate issues of the person invalidating someone else's feelings.

Often, it seems that some feelings are just socially "taboo" - you are always supposed to feel strong, good, postive, healthy or whatever you want to class them feelings - the negative side is often repressed or frowned about. Negating someone's feelings might be about power, control or just shere conflict-avoidance ... or in some cases just lack of empathy ...

So, my view is, you got the right to your feelings and to expressing them; but it might actually help not to internalize any negative response to it (as we probably do most of the time), but to realize that by invalidating them, the person who does it probably is just showing where his/her weak spots are in those moments ... - might be worth to pick up on that and discuss those issue (or not worth, depending on who does it ;) ).

Carazy, you make an interesting point about the person doing the invalidating possibly projecting his or her issues onto the person being invalidated. That's really possible, and a really good point.

I think Maria deciding that she will never pretend she is not jealous when she actually is -- that's really good. That's exactly what I mean! Some people will say, "Well, you need to learn to not be jealous, or control it" and to that I say "BS!" By her allowing herself to feel her emotions and not be ashamed of them, she is essentially empowering herself to only be with people who will not make her jealous; in other words, she is choosing to surround herself with people that will allow her to be happy.

I personally HATE it WITH A PASSION when someone says he or she will call and then doesn't. I mean, it drives me bonkers. So... I choose to only be with people who will call when they say they will. I can't stand any less. Some will say that's unreasonably inflexible of me... but in the past where I put up with that behaviour, it made me really unhappy.