love vs. attraction

Question for guys and gals...... please be honest.

SCENARIO: You meet someone online, he/she visits you after one month of feeling strong affections through phone/chat. The visit goes well and both seem equally attracted to the other. There is lot's of passion shared on that visit.

FAST FORWARD 5mths (that was the only visit): after much deliberation, he/she moves a long distance to live with you. *yes, this is crazy... stay with me.

FAST FORWARD 3mths of living together: he/she likes to snuggle, somewhat affectionate, avoids sex for the most part.

An intense discussion about this being an issue for you (the lack of desire) starts and he/she says " they are lacking a physical attraction to you.... the *hunger* isn't there." ....BUT they love you and have avoided telling you this because they didn't want to hurt you." It is stated that the 20lbs weight gain since the *visit* is a factor and the smoking you have not given up yet. (nothing was ever kept secret here)..... it is stated that the desire was weak on that visit (oh really)...... BUT he/she loved you so much they didn't want to give up the relationship, so they comprimised on the lack of desire (not a priority for them) in hopes you would grow on them as time passed, even if it took years.

QUESTIONS:

-- Can someone truly love their NEW partner that they learned to love online and NOT be physically attracted to them??

-- Can an attraction grow on someone over time?? (assuming 3mths living together and sleeping together isn't enough)

-- Would you give up any guarantees of desire/passion in the short term to wait it out --hoping things would get better in that department? (meaning you lose weight, quit smoking, whatever is said to be affecting the loss of desire)... if other aspects of the relationship were warm/friendly.

-- What happens if you makes changes, desire reappears? Do you feel insecure and threatened to maintain whatever change took place to obtain desire?

I would like to not treat this as me seeking personal advice here, but more of a hypothetical question. I realize I'm opening a can of worms here, but want feedback of males and females alike, because some perspective is needed.

/holds her breath

I truly believe one can fall in love online. I also believe that if love is there, it is there and if not ... then it's probably more difficult to "make" it happen or keep it there.

And finally, I have always believed that real chemistry helps a couple get through many difficulties they might not otherwise manage.

You need only follow your heart ... that is where the real answer is ...

e

I do believe that you can truly fall in love with someone online. I did. I think that sometimes, if the two are really open about their feelings, and are genuine about the aspects of themselves they are proclaiming to the other, then they can probably know each other better than couples who go the the movies every Friday night. Lets face it, online couples usually talk for hours at a time without other interruptions. You can really get to know someone so well that way. However, just like in face to face relationships, some people will fall out of love .

I also do believe that people can love someone without a physical attraction - it happens every day in long marriages. But, I think in those situations, its a different kind of love - it becomes more of a "family" type love, not a "lover's" love. But if he loves you, and you were to "become" the thin or perfect person that he will be attracted to, he might physically want you again - but is that what you want? I don't know.

You and Tall Guy are really an example of what love should look like.....beautiful :)

QUESTIONS:

-- Can someone truly love their NEW partner that they learned to love online and NOT be physically attracted to them??

Absolutely. It is possible to love someone and not be physically attracted to them. I know this from experience....

-- Can an attraction grow on someone over time?? (assuming 3mths living together and sleeping together isn't enough).

Well, sure, that is always a possibility. I would imagine every relationship is different, and every situation is different. In this situation though...with the living together and sleeping together part, I don't honestly know how good the odds would be of that happening.

-- Would you give up any guarantees of desire/passion in the short term to wait it out --hoping things would get better in that department? (meaning you lose weight, quit smoking, whatever is said to be affecting the loss of desire)... if other aspects of the relationship were warm/friendly.

Here you are asking what "I" would do, and what I would do would not necessarily be the "right" thing to do. Personally, knowing myself, I want my partner to be happy, and I would do about anything to make them happy, including stopping smoking or trying to lose a few pounds. Of course, when I say this, I am talking about more in a marriage situation or long-term partner situation, and I am telling you this because I am being honest, and not because I condone it as being the right thing to do. I do totally believe that someone should love you no matter what. Having said that, although I would make changes to make someone else happy, I would hope that they would love me and be attracted to me no matter what, and that I was making the choices to change of my own free will, and not because I was trying to keep him.

-- What happens if you makes changes, desire reappears? Do you feel insecure and threatened to maintain whatever change took place to obtain desire?

I think that, yes, definitely, if the only way a man desired me was if I was thin or what have you, it would be a lot of pressure to maintain that...and a lot of fear about what would happen if I didn't, and I don't think that would be a healthy relationship.

I know you said this is a hypothetical thing, and not more about you, but I just wanted to tell you...

I recently quit smoking with the patch (for the third time! lol), and I really don't find it all that difficult. Smoking cessation is an important thing to consider for YOU, and for the health of your kids or others who live with you. Also, I do know quite a few people that the smell of smoke bothers them so much, it is a deal breaker. I am now one of them, as the smell of smoke only makes me WANT to smoke...and I don't want to go back there. I was surprised when I quit smoking how strong the odor is....and I can see how it might truly bother someone.

*hugs* to you...I hope you get a lot of good opinions here.

Everyone who has posted so far has done an excellent job saying exactly what I would say as well.

I agree wholeheartedly that a relationship like this is not likely to last without the chemistry and commitment on both parts.

I think anytime a partner puts strict conditions on another about appearance, etc its unhealthy.
There is nothing wrong with saying, "Honey youre beautiful to me always but I do like you with a little Less/More padding" or, "Honey you still look great to me but Im worried about your health lets work on this together".....however if they say that 20 lbs. prevents them from being sexually attracted to you and having sex with you, thats Wacked!

God knows that through the years, appearances change. Wether its just because you've been pigging out on too many pizzas and containers of chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream, or because youve had babies or some other health issue, your weight can and will go up and down.
Its a part of life for everyone who DOESNT live the air-brushed MTV, movie star lifestyle. Real human beings dont look like Victoria's Secret models 24x7, day in and day out.

I also think its too soon in the relationship for that to even be mentioned, I dont imagine that you look THAT drastically different than you did before----and like everyone has already mentioned, true love trancends that anyhoo. I think there has to be much more going on here than just a weight issue.

I always get riled up with this subject, and it has much less to do with anyone but myself.
I also had an ex who told me I was positively revolting, for many reasons but especially my weight. It took me a long time to wake up and realize not only was he the ONLY man who seemed to think that, but that he said it to HURT me.
Thats not what love is about.
:confused:

*EDIT*...I didnt answer many questions that were asked here...I do think that attraction can grow over time, and that you can love someone you've never met (I do now!!). I also didnt want to imply that anyone is being cruel or saying mean things in the relationship---that was MY relationship!! I dont think that I could deal with a partner not wanting to express his love for me in all ways, INCLUDING sex. I love sex!! :D
SORRY for the rambling!

First, I'll answer the question about falling in love online.
Yes, I do believe that folks can fall in love on the net.

A sudden "un-attraction" can happen anytime, no matter how the two people meet.
It happened to me.
I was dating a guy that I was quite smitten with in the beginning and suddenly one day, I wasn't attracted to him anymore.
We were only dating at the time, thank God, so I didn't have to ask him to move out or move out myself.
I just broke up with him.

All I can figure in looking back on that situation, is that after I got to know him better, I realised he wasn't the type man I wanted in my life, (he turned out the be a "big child")
I already had kids at the time and didn't want to be "Mommie" to my boyfriend.
(He was my age too)

I guess what I am saying here is that if a person suddenly finds themself "un-attracted" to their mate, I would say there is way more to it than just not being physically attracted to them.

And I agree with Babes, they will find all kinds of reasons to ask the other person to change and it will never be good enough.

I think we are all able to love someone in different ways. There are infinite ways of loving someone, and very often with no physical attraction.

The question is, are you happy with this kind of love he's offering you? Can you live without the passion?

I know I couldn't. It has happened to me in marriage. Best friends. Bestest friends! But love without that bit of passion, is not enough for me, and I knew that the moment someone would come with more than just platonic love, I would go away. So before that happened, I just told him I couldn't live that way.

Okay, I think I'm qualified to answer this one! IMO, mutual physical attraction is absolutely IMPERATIVE to a long term relatioinship. No if, ands or buts about it. Now, don't confuse this with both people having to look like models...quite the contrary. They can have all sorts of physical characteristics, short, tall, plump, skinny, brown eyes, blue eyes...but to EACHOTHER, they need to appear to be physically attractive and sexually desireable. This has kept our species alive for millions of years. It also keeps relationships alive when they're going through the hard times, you can trust me on this one.

IMO, people trying to make themselves desire someone else, for whatever reason, are wasting their time. You can't MAKE yourself want someone. Either you do, or you don't. I've been both the one who was jilted as well as the jilter. Neither one feels good, but it's a necessary process to go through to figure out what you really want. You come away a little wiser. And let me say this: just because someone isn't attracted to someone else doesn't mean there's anything wrong, either with the person being rejected or the person doing the rejecting. It just didn't pan out, for whatever reason. The person being rejected might be a total knockout in someone else's eyes, 20 pounds, smoker's breath and all!

Robin smokes, I don't, yet his smoking doesn't repulse me at all. It's part of who Robin is. I've gained 20 pounds since we met (it happens an awful lot in relationships...bodies DO change) and Robin still can't keep his hands off of me. When I say to him, "Don't you think I'm gross, with all this extra weight?" He says, "No! I think you're gorgeous!" Now, I don't think I'm gorgeous, by any stretch of the imagination, but Robin DOES, and it's because he's in love. I think he's the sexiest man alive. You might not, you might think he's too skinny or his goatee is weird, but I think he's the hottest thing I've ever had! We've had a lot of hard times since we got together. Life threw us more curve balls than a World Series game, but because we have a strong love, which was also aided by mutual attraction, we have been able to cope. Neither one of us ever wanted to leave. The sex never suffered either. I always said, "Sex is the glue that holds a relationship together."

The answer to your questions are

-- Can someone truly love their NEW partner that they learned to love online and NOT be physically attracted to them?? NO

-- Can an attraction grow on someone over time?? (assuming 3mths living together and sleeping together isn't enough)
NO

-- Would you give up any guarantees of desire/passion in the short term to wait it out --hoping things would get better in that department? (meaning you lose weight, quit smoking, whatever is said to be affecting the loss of desire)... if other aspects of the relationship were warm/friendly. NO

-- What happens if you makes changes, desire reappears? Do you feel insecure and threatened to maintain whatever change took place to obtain desire? Of course that would happen.

This guy might love you but is not in love with you. Heck, my guy just looks at me and gets excited and I'm an attractive woman, but older and not skinny, etc, far from the perfect body, very far. And I look and him and I could just melt.

Sex is in the brain. If a man or a woman is in love with the other, the connection between them manifests itself in a physical way. And if you don't have that, you have a great friendship perhaps, or a best friend with occasional benefits.

Desire is the fire that feeds the body, just like love feeds the soul in a romantic relationship. One without the other is unimaginable for true love.

Gypsyheart,

I told you a while ago my recommendatiosn on playing the game. If you haev tried and it hasn't worked, move on. End of story.

If you haven't, I might give it a shot first. You get more bees with honey and by making someone do what you want them to do than through criticism. Asking him to be passionate when he isn't is criticism. Trying to make be passionate for you, is a long a diffcult process during which you will make yourself vulnerable. Ans, it may not work. Some will never have passion.

I am not saying that you should go through this process, I don't know if I would if I was in the shoes you describe. Of course, I don't see myself in those shoes either.

If one won't go through the process or it has come to an impasse, one must decide what one is willing tolerate. There comes a time when we need to decide what makes us happy and what we are willing to live with. If what he offers is not going to float your boat, nevertheless fill your sails, then move on. Having yourself sink in a relationship with which you are unhappy is no place to be. Some would be happy in a passionless relationship in which the other person was otherwise devoted to them. I have a friend in a sexless marriage whose wife might love this guy. Unfortunately, my friend wants it every day, and is a poor match for his wife. I've heard about his misery for ten years, interrupted by moments of delight for the short period after a night of sex. The worst part is that when someone did make a move of him, he fell like a house of cards and had a oone night affair, then felt guilty and told his wife. Now, there is no passion, and she doesn't trust him. Can you see yourself in his boat in two years if some guy comes on to you and the man at home has not changed? I can.

My boy friends ex wife had sex with him about once a year. Same with my ex husband. Seperate bedrooms and all. I could never do that to any one. I think it is grossly unfair to expect someone to live in a sexless marriage, and then mind if they go elsewhere for sex. Good points Captain. Sooner or later she would get it outside her marriage.

Wow, so many wonderful posts…. I could not begin to try and comment on all that was said. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

I grabbed a few that I wanted to respond to, but please don’t think I skipped anything here…….. I read every word more than once. ;)

LADYINWAITING WRITES: I look in his eyes and see adoration, and love and desire. THAT is what a man or woman is supposed to look at the partner they love with. Not just fond companionship. I have a dog for that. If I lose weight, he will be fine with it and still love me. If I stay at this weight, he will be fine with it and still love me. He said he will only be concerned about a weight gain if it adversly affects my health. I do not have to change who I am, or what I am, or how I look. That is love.

Well, you nailed it Lady……….. I want what you have expressed here. Anything less seems like settling.

BABES WRITES: I know you love him..but are you really prepared to settle for a life which makes you feel undesirable and unworthy?

I did that for 15yrs with the wrong man and swore I would not live a lie, or settle for the crumbs thrown my way by a man that doesn’t love me. Looking back, I realize my ex did love me…… just not the kind of love I needed to be happy and healthy.

BUBBLEE SAYS: Sex is in the brain. If a man or a woman is in love with the other, the connection between them manifests itself in a physical way. And if you don't have that, you have a great friendship perhaps, or a best friend with occasional benefits.

Friend with benefits is about where we are now.

SWANQUEEN WRITES: Good points Captain. Sooner or later she would get it outside her marriage.

SWAN, I have always considered myself loyal beyond measure. But I have to say I cannot live in a relationship without sexual intimacy. So I would probably end up miserable and just leaving later.

POLLY…… girl I agreed with everything you wrote! I am sorry about your illness, and will say a prayer for you. Count the blessings and keep the faith… that is what I try to do.

Ya, know……. I have not hurt like this in a long time and I divorced this year. I let his words almost destroy me emotionally this past weekend. I don’t think he meant to hurt me. I asked for the truth and got it....... It did cause me pain, because I had previously heard this from my ex before and hearing it again seem to push me into a pit of emotion for a while. My esteem is already low due to me knowing I need to drop off this weight (I’m 50-60lbs over norm now) and unhappy about it. Two kids changed everything and now at midlife I have a weight issue (never did before).

I just don’t like living in the fantasy that me making changes will suddenly get me what I want here. I am very sad about this whole deal and wish it was different outcome…….but if me twisting myself inside-out is what it’s going to take to obtain desire from him – then it wasn’t meant to be.

What is difficult now is he doesn’t want to break up or leave, and says I will be squashing our hopes and dreams of being together someday with ALL aspects included. If I walk away, I do so with a lot of guilt, and doubts that I didn’t give it enough time to play out. All I know is when I dream lately, I usually end up dreaming of passion waay too much. I have a hard time lying next to the man I love(and desire) knowing it’s not reciprocated 99% of the time. I think it’s time to cut my losses and try to heal my heart. I am lucky enough to have friends that love me dearly, I have my family and two children to be thankful for. Thanks again for caring enough to post. You have given me much to think about here.

doesn't mean you owe the guy a thing when you meet...hopefully he spent time doing something with you....if not...WHY NOT? Why give up the pearls so soon...the man has done nothing to deserve them yet...I made my current lover (met online) wait from July 3-Sept. 3rd to do the deed...lots of passion, more so because we waited...each time afterwards was greater than before...besides I was not sure how I felt about him nor he about me...are we living together no, have we discussed it ,yes, could it happen by the summer, yes...we are not lip locked 24/7 but we do spend time together about 4 to 6 days out of the month... where it will go is not known at this time, but jumping too soon into a living arrangement without knowing the person is scary...especially since most men are 'rubberband men' as we have discussed before...I have the belief that if you free the bird and it comes back to you over and over again, then it is pretty much yours...living with someone who doesn't want to be intimate with you means it is time to cut the cord and pronto...or you may be housing his new lover when you are at work and serving only as a hotel. Hadley

"What is difficult now is he doesn’t want to break up or leave, and says I will be squashing our hopes and dreams of being together someday with ALL aspects included"

When would that day be? When you lose a lot of weight and quit smoking? What if he's not attracted physically even then? How does he know, for sure, that those cosmetic changes will make the difference. He doesn't. it's that simple. It's a hope, it's an expression of disappointment, it's a rationalization. All human enough. But there is truly no guarantee that anything would be any different if you did all or any of these things.

"If I walk away, I do so with a lot of guilt, and doubts that I didn’t give it enough time to play out."

What you walk away with - and he does too - is perfectly understandable disappointment. You both tried and it didn't work.

Love doesn't mean being flawless. It means being there for each other in all the ways, including physically, when things aren't perfect at all. If that isn't possible now, it's unlikely to be so later.

Desert Spring had excellent points. I'd like to add, that Gypsy, I've seen your pics, and you do look absolutely beautiful! Please don't ever think you're anything less than that. You're perfect, just the way you are. You know what? Do we REALLY want to look like size 2 models who vomit after eating and have organ damage by their mid-twenties? Do we really want to give up a habit we happen to enjoy that makes us feel good (in your case, it's smoking)? Do we really want to become enslaved in someone else's idea of perfection? NO! WE FRIGGIN' DON'T! It's OUR lives. It's OUR bodies, it's OUR time, it's OUR friggin' bills, and we should live on OUR terms! If he likes it, great! If he doesn't, send him on his merry way and make room for the next one! We're not Golden Retrievers, waiting eagerly by the door to please our master when he comes home! We're strong, smart, sexy, BEAUTIFUL women who know what we want. We need to be our own best friends. That's the problem. We forget how wonderful and valuable we are. We're PRICELESS! :)

Gypsy,

from what I read I would argue that the situation you describe seem to be beyond remedy on the romantic side, even though I think there might be situations under which your initial questions might be positively answered.

But there seems to be a pattern here, and if I remember your last thread, I also think that he has other issues ... so, the interesting question for me is: Why do you find it so hard to walk away from something that clearly isn't working for you (nor him)?

I think you may be caught up in feeling of responsibility for him, because he moved, he's young, he might be trying in his own way (or not), he's vulnerable, you are vulnerable, your kids/family is around etc.

I don't know if counselling has been attempted between the two of you - not sure if it could "solve" the problem, but it might help to disentangle the feelings of responsibilities and guilt that seem surround this situation - he probably feels guilty too by not being able to get physical too - and may just project that back to you.

Just breakng it off and admitting it doesn't work might be one option. Trying to work it out with professional help might be the other, in order to really get issues out of the way; personally, my guess is that it would still end, but maybe this way you both would have figured out something more and may learn to move on constructively and heal from it.

Just my thoughts ...

Originally posted by Carazy
But there seems to be a pattern here, and if I remember your last thread, I also think that he has other issues ... so, the interesting question for me is: Why do you find it so hard to walk away from something that clearly isn't working for you (nor him)?

I've asked myself that question and not sure what the answer is yet. There is a strong bond between us and neither of us wants to give it up.

I think you may be caught up in feeling of responsibility for him, because he moved, he's young, he might be trying in his own way (or not), he's vulnerable, you are vulnerable, your kids/family is around etc.

You hit this on the head. I'm the poster child for codependency and right now, I've been feeling the pressure of going too fast. Him coming so far and having to find work, learn his way around, him not having a support network of his own here..... it's a volatile mix.

I don't know if counselling has been attempted between the two of you - not sure if it could "solve" the problem, but it might help to disentangle the feelings of responsibilities and guilt that seem surround this situation - he probably feels guilty too by not being able to get physical too - and may just project that back to you.

He isn't open to counseling, but I'm going to get some soon for myself. We both have been put through the ringer with feelings of guilt, mixed with resentment, and both feeling vunerable.

Just breakng it off and admitting it doesn't work might be one option. Trying to work it out with professional help might be the other, in order to really get issues out of the way; personally, my guess is that it would still end, but maybe this way you both would have figured out something more and may learn to move on constructively and heal from it.

I was struggling for two days trying to figure out how to silence my gut, which was telling me to end it. We talked last night and mutually agreed it was not working, and some things were due to going so fast. He tried to clarify his previous words that he never said that " i was unattractive"...... just that he " wasn't attracted to me AS much as he was in the beginning.".... ok, somehow I missed that little word. :\

Anyway, I explained I needed my personal space back, but didn't want to cut it off dry........ he offered to move out and get an apartment for 6mths. We'll just *date* as friends, and see where it leads us. Whatever happens, I feel confident we'll learn something from this (already have) and part as friends, if we must.

On a side note, I realized from another thread here, that part of our problems are clearly based on a clash of "who we are" and our individual sets of needs. He is a loner, I'm social.....he is non-emotional type, i'm the opposite...... you get the picture. I know we love each other, but we may never be able to "mesh" as a couple.... but I'm happy we are mutually agreeing to handle it this way. Not destroying our friendship is important to me.

Awesomely, wise decision, Gypsy. I think you are doing the right thing. To separate as friends leaving each person with their dignity and respect is the best way. You two must love each other to have agreed to such an amicable parting. And who knows? Maybe distance is all you two will need to see each other with those "eyes of love and adoration". Best to you both !
Karen

Gypsy, some differences in a couple are very hard to accept, and maybe yours are in this case. It's often not a mechanism of conscious rejection that makes it hard for us to accept those differences; it's just that they don't fit our personalities.

I was married to a Japanese man who was a good man, but he didn't have a romantic bone in his body. I told here once the story about how, the first day after moving together, he came back home and I went to greet him at the door, with a kiss, and he said to me "oh, no, darling, sorry, I'm tired tonight". We were still standing at the entrance hall...he thought I wanted sex. :( Then, we couldn't hold hands in public, while other young couples did; it was just not his way. Our sex life was a 5 min quick movie that repeated itself over and over again, regularly I must say, but whatever new thing I would ask him to try, he would always say, "No, I don't like this". I missed the romance, the adventurous spirit of a relationship.

One day I asked him to do something for me. He said no, as usual. I said, well, you are my husband, the only man I have in my life and forever, so does this mean I will never have it? I'll have to live all my life dreaming of this little thing that other women can have and I can't? He never answered. I left and go a divorce some months later.

That's one thing I've learnt from life. You have to choose if you can live a whole life without your dreams. If I dream of and need romance in my life, and my partner can't give me all that, it's not his fault, it's not my fault, simply the combination is not good. And...we can't forget that sometimes it's just that the sparks are not there. Even a romantic person might not be able to express herself that way with someone she cares about, but is not crazy about.

Your decision is the best, and maybe along the way you'll just find someone who is more fit for you. I don't think you'll ever forget this "not attracted to you as before" thing, because it happened too soon in your relationship. I would be very scared that this phase would come back sooner or later. :(

Originally posted by Polly
You know what? Do we REALLY want to look like size 2 models who vomit after eating and have organ damage by their mid-twenties?

And I hope noone of you will ever want to!!!

I fell in love because of the personalty my gf is AND because I am physically attracted to her - she is "my type". Who needs a perfect body? I love all parts of her body, no matter if they are in what others call "great shape" or not. It's a special, unique body. Its HER body, and I love every single milimeter of it.

If someone has problems because the partner doesnt have the right weight or has the wong habits - then he/she never was in love with that person - thats my opinion.

Posted by Maria:
If I dream of and need romance in my life, and my partner can't give me all that, it's not his fault, it's not my fault, simply the combination is not good.

Your decision is the best, and maybe along the way you'll just find someone who is more fit for you.

I've done alot of soul searching lately, and one thing that worries me alot......... Am I unrealistic?

I told him recently, " I want what movies are made of and what inspires romance novels and poetry!! " He told me that I was being unrealistic with my expectations of men and relationships..... that movies are just that......movies! Real life is much different !!

Well I realize this..... I didn't fall off the truck yesterday on my head. BUT, I do find myself wanting those "kodak moments" several times over the course of the week. Maybe I'm too needy and require way too much emotional affirmation (sexual intimacy, romantic moments, spontaneous expressions/acts of love). Maybe I just made a nice bubble bath in the jacuzzi and want my love to join me, or a teasing text in the middle of the day on cell, a surprise wakeup kiss on the neck after a afternoon nap together that leads to more, a quick pat on the rear when no one is looking......... /sigh ......you get the jist of where I'm going with this.

Like I said, I am a passionate/emotional person. I just wonder if expecting anyone to match my level of adventure and spontaneity, means giving up loyalty and committment. My ex was passionate like me and it got us in trouble....... my basic need to have my freedom clashed with his need to control...... but hey we rocked in other areas like the bedroom.

My b/f now has never tried to control me or make me feel bad for doing what I wanted to do (which is nice)......... but when I return from my wanderings...... there is a complacency about it also. Did he miss me while I was gone? Why does it feel like it's ok if I'm there.... it's ok if I'm not? My insecurities start creeping in and nagging me after a while......... then the next time I instigate intimate contact and he starts his evasive maneuvers, I blow up.

This usually means me emotionally shutting down....... stomping out the room to smoke more than I should...... and then being cold for a while. A day or so goes by and I get hopeful again, my mood swings to upbeat and we connect on a platonic level for a few days. I start getting the warm and fuzzies and try to "connect" intimately somehow, and ......... we generally repeat this cycle over and over. He says this vicious cycle of me being hot/cold is destroying his desire. I say the lack of desire is making me hot/cold. I guess I should shut up and just go rent another movie!!

*Picture a kid banging on a square peg trying to make it fit in that round hole, LOL ...... at least I still can find some humor in this. :p

I think what it comes down to is chemistry in person didn't match the fantasy built up thru intimate phone conversations over the months. Where any of this is going, I have no clue now.

One day at a time...........Gypsy

Originally posted by Gypsyheart
I told him recently, " I want what movies are made of and what inspires romance novels and poetry!! " He told me that I was being unrealistic with my expectations of men and relationships..... that movies are just that......movies! Real life is much different!!

Well, if we can do it, others can, including the right man. We all know we can't be romantic and sweet all the time, we all have our bad days, but we can find people who dream and see romance in a similar way we do.

There are women who are more practical, too, as there are men who are incredibly romantic. God had many moulds.

Gypsy,
I think this hot & cold thing when you get upset/hurt about something indicates some communication / conflict solving issues ... I don't know your motivation for acting this way, so I am not saying your case might be like the one I am going to describe, but personally i have a BIG problem if I feel someone is trying to "manipulate" me ... and does that by using/faking/withholding feelings ... It depends HOW you would be getting hot/cold, though.

To give you an example, if someone is upset and gets icy with me in a "don't mind me - why would you care anyway" attitude, the effect on me is not one of trying to "appease", but rather I walk away saying "if you got some to say, either say it or cut the C***p" (well, I wouldn't phrase it like that, but it would be MY underlying attitude :p ) - any form of reaction/behaviour reflecting "victimization", "martyrdom (as in ostensively brave but silent "suffering") or the putting the "guilt trip on" just doesn't get anywhere with me - in essence, it is covert but ineffective communication I think - if I was a bigger person / more of a nurturer than I am, maybe I would use it as such and try to open up communication to get to the bottom of things.

But I don't (actually, my attitude is a hard-nosed "if you want to tell me something, do it directly - I am not in the mind-reading business" ;)) and I think a lot of guys don't do react too constructively in situations like that either - which means in essence this form of communication will not succeed, so using an other means to express your real feelings and hurt might elicit a "better" response.

But this might not be your situation at all; even so, it might be worth looking into the communication issue. Are you really "openly communicating" how you feel when something like this happens and you go cold?!

Just a thought, ignore it if you feel it doesn't fit your situation ;)

But I don't think I'm overboard with it....... I have my bad days too. No one is suppose to be upbeat all the time. I do pay attention to the little things a bit more than some. Like on his visit here, we were walking and picked a wildflower for me and stuck it in my hair. He used to write me emails that were so sweet and heartfelt....... I'd get misty reading them.

Romance to me can mean a surprise kiss when passing in a doorway, or your lover slipping in the shower with you unannounced, or doing any number of things to express their love. These are things that I myself try to do as often as possible, it's a 2way street with me.

What gets me is when men use these techniques to hook you, reel you ....... and then it stops once they got you on ice!!! WHY do that??!! Would make more sense to court someone pratical that don't need all the fluff, if you yourself are not fluffy. ~laughs at herself~ Yes, Maria....... I'm learning that denying myself, saying I should not want this or feel this or expect this........ isn't helping any...... it's who I am. :\ ............Fluff and all !! :-p

sidenote: I do not know too many women in my life that didn't enjoy some fluff *sometimes*..... but many learn to live without it.

My b/f has followed this post and said last night, that YOU must have our house bugged *LOL* ......because you seem to be hitting this on nail so much it's scary.

I will be the first to admit that the less my needs are met, the more *reactive* I get over time. As the resentment builds, the communication lessens. I get into a "flight or fight" mode and it's hard to stop the disentagration of something that seemed good. I tried to head this off at the pass, by expressing my basic needs up front even before he decided to come here. Laid it out on the table I did.

I listed a few things that were a must for me to feel secure and happy with this relationship.

1) aggressively look for work when you get here, and be an equal partner.
2) show patience and respect regarding dealing with my kids
3) do not abuse alcohol or drugs..... social drinking ok
4) love me and try to build intimacy through expression of that love via sexual and otherwise..... don't take it for granted.
5) stay honest and communicate with me regarding expectations

Well..... those were the main points and truthfully, he fell short in a few areas. He took several weeks to look for a job, and admitted he hates looking for one. He is working now, but it fell in his lap. He drinks more than I'm comfortable with at times, and this has been an issue of more than more discussion. The desire to please waned quickly, and the physical aspect became an issue within the first two weeks.

On a positive note, he now gives me most of what he makes towards bills....he is firm but kind to my kids.... tries to discuss way to guide them better and make homelife more harmonious..... when affection is shown, it's sincere and warm. There is a strong bond there of friendship and love.

I admit I'm an emotional trainwreck (at times) and all I can say is when I *withdraw* .... I don't see it as manipulation. I see it as self protective and taking time to think it over before I get irrational. The times I've tried to calmly express how I felt about things that bothered me...... it seems like nothing changes and more often than not, he gets defensive with me and later says I'm coming down on him (am I too harsh when I do express myself?)

I do think he reacts to my withdrawal like gas on the fire...... talking about this stuff doesn't really help, because he feels I'm nagging on issues that irrelevant to the big picture. My ex used to withdraw on me and I know how it felt........ he WAS punishing me for not doing what I was told or expected to do, or for bucking him. I just simply walk away and cry/smoke/and stay quiet a while until I focus on something positive again.

Maybe it's me...... maybe it's just a combination of things.......where we just bring out the worst in each other. I'm hoping some time apart will give us some perspective.

Your expectations are not unrealistic in my book. Perhaps there are a large number of men who could not measure up to them, but it only takes one right?

However reading the posts of many men on this site, I think there may actually be a fair number of men who agree with your idea of romance and would want the same from you.

We have the right to experience our hearts desire. Settling, which I know I have done in the past, only brings years of frustration. Then you meet someone who would have been happy to do all that you require.

I am an intense person (just been told that today by I.G. so I guess it's true) I'm usually apologetic about being intense as it has scared off a fair number of suitors. I.G. says he can handle it just fine.

You know, Gypsy, for a long time I tended to listen to other people criticism about things that are inherent to my personality, things that make me who I am.

It's not bad to be romantic. I like it, I'm happy with it, so just find your match!

Originally posted by Trish
I'm also very intense, Swan. I've been told that by a number of men, and it has scared them off, so I've often thought of it as a bad thing, and also been apologetic. There have even been times when I've prefaced a relationship with the fact of my intensity. Reading your post was the first time I've ever seen another person express that they are, and that it's affected relationships. I have always thought being intense meant I was suffering from a serious character/personality flaw.

It's only a flaw to those that see it that way. Some men find me exciting and dynamic.

Depends on the man. But yes, scares some men. I tell men before I get to know them that I am like olives, some may not like me, but some love me. It's all in the taste.

edit: its better than being oatmeal don't you think? My daughter is even more intense than I. I am amazed by her unapologetic view on this. I am so glad now she has found someone that thinks she is the answer to all his prayers. It just takes a certain man.

Originally posted by babes66
So that is my new ideal man...someone who is happy to be with me..who doesnt feel overpowered because I have a strong personality, and is proud of my skills and attributes, rather than feeling overshadowed by them!:D

Costs:

Body, membership at the gym $300
Beauty, plastic surgery $4,000
Money, Master's degree $100,000
Fine house $250,000
Fine car $50,000

loving me for who I am..... priceless.

I am with you Lynn. Some of us may be too much women for some men. But the ones who appreciate us... well they won't be bored... and they will be loved.

Swan, you crack me up! *lol*

Ya know, when I was younger..... I was a real firecracker, full of spunk. I had a nice body and never lacked for attention. My best friend, that has known me all my life said the other day, "girl you were something else back then..... where did that fire go?"

I thought about it and realize I was the one that blew it out. It seemed early on that the only guys that "could handle" my spunky strong personality were the the bad boys. They saw me as a conquest, or a trophy. I had so much trouble with guys, I was always onward to the next jerk. On the flip side, the nice quiet guys were too intimidated by me. They'd tell mutual friends, that I was too "intense". My friends didn't help by referring to me as the "barracuda" either, LOL.

I married someone at 24 who was attracted to my *fire* and then he spent 15yrs fussing at me for embarrassing him, shushing me for being too loud, or doing things to overshadow me and over time the flame flickered out. I started to dislike that part of me. Funny thing now is my friends that knew me then all beg me to relight the fire....... find the old me!!!

Well, one thing is sure..... if I do get that back..... I won't let someone else make me feel bad for being me again!!

OK girls....... everyone grab a drink and toast to letting our light shine brightly!!

uh oh...... slight estrogen increase in here! :-p

LOL
my ex used to tell me not to speak at parties

I "intimdated" his friends. I might say because they were shallow ignorant people. JUST MHO.


Lifting a Merlot to LETTING OUR LIGHT SHINE.

Trish, Lynn what are you drinking?

Oh God, where do I START???

I'm as intense as they come, unless they're in an insane asylum already! I'm so spastic and moody, I make all of you guys look catatonic! Sex? I don't think I'm a nymph, but iffin I don't get it on a regular basis, I get kind of whacko! Dreaming of romance? My dreams matched all of yours. I dated for FIVE YEARS, a single mom, life was Hell, but I didn't settle!

At one point, I was in love with Larry (I told you all about him before, the wonderfully talented musician who was very funny and a total blast to be around). I thought Larry was so perfect for me. Larry needed a place to live. I moved him right in! At first, he tried to act like he was interested in me, but he found fault with me here and there. Larry was the biggest deadbeat moocher I'd ever met, but I was so charmed and smitten, I didn't notice...or care. However, Larry made one excuse after another, after a time, to avoid sex. Finally, I saw the light! Larry really just wanted to be a friend and roommate. He did like me at first, but for him, the interest waned. I finally "got it" and broke ties with Larry. After I got over him, we were able to be friends, but not until I was comfortable with it.

Dated more guys. Nice guys! Lots of fun. If I saw a red flag, I terminated the relationship. Dated one guy who really seemed to like me. His name was "Doug". I liked him right away. He was cute, sweet, had kids, made good enough money, was a musician, and we had a lot in common. He kept telling me on our first date about how cute he thought I was, although I was "bigger" than he imagined. Hmmmmm. Later in the date, he talked about getting together again, and doing something at some point with our kids. Then he didn't call for a week. Then when he called, he left a message saying, "I've been a jerk. I want to see you again." Then he never called again.

A GUY EITHER WANTS YOU OR HE DOESN'T. There isn't any guessing or fixing or adjusting to it. He either thinks you're incredibly sexy and desireable, or he doesn't. He either wants to put up with you, and all that IS you, or he doesn't. Trying to fit yourself into his mold, isn't going to work, because if he finds fault with you now, and you with him, and you haven't even had the "honeymoon phase" for at least a few years first, where you see eachother as "perfect", then there isn't much point in trying to build a relationship on such shaky ground. It's a waste of time. Be roommates if you want to, I mean, it's nice to have someone around to help with the kids, and it's nice to have financial help, but don't bet on this guy fully and wholly falling in love with you. It won't happen. See it for what it is, and either accept it, or if it hurts too much, send him on out the door. You don't owe this guy anything. You tried something, it didn't work, and it's not your fault! Don't even think for a minute that it is.

Polly, ROCK ON!

That last paragraph especially gets to the heart of the majority of problems people have in relationships. There are so many people, both women and men, thinking that if they could only just change in some way, the other person would love them the way they want to be loved. Well there are 6.3 billion people on this planet. If one of 'em doesn't think the earth revolves around you (and you think the same about them), keep shopping until you find one that does! :D

1. Get over yourself!
Dating is a matter of choice and preference — for both sides. You get to choose whom you prefer; he does likewise. It's not all about you! "If you get upset every time someone doesn't choose you, you're setting yourself up for hurt feelings and bruised ego," Britton says.

2. Focus on his flaws
When a guy didn't respond to her e-mail, Ann, an online dater in Los Angeles, eased the sting by thinking about his negative qualities. "I was too smart for him," she says. "I hated his curly mustache. And who wants to be with a pool cleaner, anyway?" This tactic works especially well if you get together with girlfriends and together have a good laugh dissing guys who don't even realize that yes, you are all that.

3. Make a wish list
Stop wasting time thinking about someone who rejected you. "Instead work up a wish list of character traits and values a suitable man has," says Tina Tessina, a psychotherapist and author of "The Unofficial Guide to Dating Again". Of course, anyone who rejects you is automatically unsuitable and booted from your list.

4. Move quick
When someone catches your eye, don't moon — move! If you wait until your heart is set on one guy, the stakes are too high and rejection is bound to hurt. "Women usually don't approach men until they've built him up in their heads. They'll sit in a bar all night and stare at one guy until they've worked themselves into a lather of anticipation. Or they moon over some guy at work for months before they ask him out for coffee," says Kim, of Charlotte, N.C. "By the time they make their approach, a rejection feels huge and personal. I prefer to make my move earlier, before I have my heart on the line."

5. Keep expectations low and light
Liz Kelly, a dating coach and author of "Smart Man Hunting" uses the KISS (Keep-It-Simple-Stupid) strategy. "I enter each encounter with low expectations and a light-hearted attitude," she says. "I don't share too much detail or place too much weight on first exchanges"

6. Kiss a lot of Frogs
Dating coach Kelly also reminds herself that dating is a numbers game. If you give up too early, you won't win the jackpot. "There are ten males for every six females using Internet dating," she says. "The odds are in your favor! You just have to be patient and persistent. Keep a smile on your face, and don't exit the game until you find your man!"

Wow! I can't think of more to add! All this advice has been great and right on the money! I spent years trying to mold my husband into the man of my dreams......romance and what you called "kodak moments", etc. It took me a long time to figure out it is easier to find someone who is what you are looking for from the start. Of course, I don't expect to find someone with every single quality I desire....

I laughed when I read the part about men telling some of you you were "too intense". I actually had someone break up with me for almost the exact same reason. He said there was something about me that "caused him to fall so far into me, he lost himself." It was too much, it was too intense.....Whatever!

I guess we are just a bunch of dynamic women here!

Swan, you posted some great tips. Julianne, I love your analogy too!! *gasps for breath as she trys to squeeze into that outfit*

I'm happy this thread grew with so much compassion, wisdom and support. Thank each one of you for posting your thoughts and concerns. I am feeling much better with each day and starting to see myself through the eyes of friends and family..... deprogramming those negative voices is tough!

It seems that when I'm going through tough times, I suddenly find myself surrounded by beautiful people....... coincidence or heaven sent? ....... the latter I believe. :)

The day I posted this thread, I received this "poem of the day" in my work email. Just one of those things you sign up for on the internet, but that day it was special to me.

Here it is....... posted in tribute to the beauty found in each one of you.


The Beauty Within
by Inspiration

It doesn't matter what we look like,
For beauty is only skin deep.
Always remember your inner beauty,
As that's something to cherish and keep.

Beauty on the outside fades in time,
But your inner beauty is there to stay.
And it will always radiate and shine,
So bright and in every single way.

Now when you think of being beautiful,
Please remember it comes from inside.
And that is something to be proud of,
And not something you should ever hide.

Let it shine as bright as the sun,
And fill everyone with hidden delight.
Because as I said to everyone before,
Beauty is not all about sight.

Trish, I remember you told me about him. What an arrogant attitude, after all, huh?
As if he were choosing apples in a basket, and telling the apples about it! Arghhh...:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gypsyheart
Am I unrealistic?[/color]
I told him recently, [b]" I want what movies are made of and what inspires romance novels and poetry!! " He told me that I was being unrealistic...

Romance IS unrealistic - that's the best part about it.


No you're not too needy or too anything IMO. There's a beauty and magic in all those things you mentioned in your post but not everyone can see it (or want to see it). They may be able to go through the motions, but they dont see it.
There's nothing wrong in needing romance.

Trish, your experience with "Mr. Vanilla" is EXACTLY why I do not prefer older men ... A great many of them have that same sort of attitude ...

You are sweet and smart, you will find the right one ;)

e

In this day of such uglies...just be thankful one can find A man regardless of age who will treat women with the kindness and respect they deserved.

I have two friends at work who are gay and I can honesty say, they've treated me with more love, kindness and respect then any young or old straight guy I've ever met. Men are fascinating creatures. One just has to stop analyzing and just accept them for who they are as we would want them to accept us for who we are. We always seem to want to change them, but heaven forbid they want to change us.

If we can't accept, then what's the point of being in a relationship with them to begin with.

As for you Gyspy, isn't this the same guy that on another thread this summer we also kindly advise you not to move in with so soon after meeting online, you got upset and flew the coup because I certainly didn't see you for the rest of the summer. Well, we learn our lessons the hard way, but you know...learn them we must. And now that the fairytale is over, do not under any circumstances believe you are unworthy of getting what you want.

You know, I really, really hate televisions and movies alot. I've decided in the last 5 years to stopped watching it just about every sitcom there is. Not only has it warped our sense of humour, it has also left behind alot of confuse and intolerant men and women who have no clue about relationships. We don't know how to court, how to date, how to mingle and meet, how to relax, how to have sex or how to be ourselves. Men and women's roles are so blurry, we would bark at the moon, if a sitcom told us we were wolves.

If romance is what you desire to make you feel like worthwhile person, then find someone who has learn to give that to you and not by what he has observed in movies but by what he's observe in you. If this guy hasn't learn to give this to you by lessons from previous relationships or through interaction with you (according to your specifications that is) for whatever reason, then he deserves to become a worthwhile person, by the company that he keeps. Believe me, there are plenty of women in this world who have no problems with what he offers. Its not wrong, its not right, it just is.

Instead of both of you trying to figure out what went wrong, or right or how to fix it to accommodate the other, figure out how to be the kindest to each other and live accordingly. You might end up finding a different kind of relationship then either one could ever had imagine.

Paris

IRPARIS quote: We always seem to want to change them, but heaven forbid they want to change us

I never set out to change him. He "sold me" on who he was, and how it would be...... what I got was no where close to what I bought in to. When it came time to address this, no comprimise on his part....... only what I needed to do in order to facilitate getting what I want (maybe).

As for you Gyspy, isn't this the same guy that on another thread this summer we also kindly advise you not to move in with so soon after meeting online, you got upset and flew the coup because I certainly didn't see you for the rest of the summer.

I only got upset at people insinuating he was a possible predator. I didn't fly the coup, I went invisible and didn't post much....but read daily. We all have our phases of not having much to say here.

And now that the fairytale is over, do not under any circumstances believe you are unworthy of getting what you want.

Yes, my delusion is over now. OH I believe I deserve it but I don't believe it exist anymore.... not for me.

If romance is what you desire to make you feel like worthwhile person, then find someone who has learn to give that to you and not by what he has observed in movies but by what he's observe in you. If this guy hasn't learn to give this to you by lessons from previous relationships or through interaction with you (according to your specifications that is) for whatever reason, then he deserves to become a worthwhile person, by the company that he keeps. Believe me, there are plenty of women in this world who have no problems with what he offers. Its not wrong, its not right, it just is.

I think most would (and have) said that my worth should not revolve around a man's actions. I do think that someone calling himself my partner and mate, should *try* to be a giving and equal partner in all ways..... or I just end up feeling used and taken advantage of.

Instead of both of you trying to figure out what went wrong, or right or how to fix it to accommodate the other, figure out how to be the kindest to each other and live accordingly. You might end up finding a different kind of relationship then either one could ever had imagine

I think that is what we are doing. Instead of throwing him out in the street, I am trying to help him get an apartment and stay his friend, even though it hurts.

Here's an analogy of what happened:

I saw a car I liked...... I researched it and thought I knew all there was to know on it. I drove it for a week, and it was a wonderful experience. I just knew this car was right for me. I wanted to borrow it a few more times to make sure, but it was not available for much longer......... I had to buy it or walk away never knowing. (he was going to end it if we didn't move forward)

Well, I jumped head first into making the committment. First day home with me, it begins to sputter and stall. Nothing I do makes it run right for me anymore. Fact is..... I didn't *committ* to this ! But alas, it *is* what it *is*!!

Since I have no luck with cars....... I think I'll just walk from now on.......... or at least until I figure out why I keep getting lemons.(ie: men that don't compliment who I am)

Thanks Trish! I was bored last night and messing with my webcam. The pic is grainy and dark, but cheap webcams aren't good for much quality.

As far as men........ I have gotten to a point now, where I don't give a rat's a$$ if I ever marry again. I don't trust anyone with a penis, and not sure why I even need one (the man, not the appendage). All they do is cause heartache and strife for me.

........ ouch, that sounded bitter. :-(

oh well, I'm self-sufficient, and almost debt free (cept the mortgage) and have friends/family around me.... so I'll be just fine. Thanks again for compliment. **hugs**

*laughs wearily*

holy mother the church, batman. does this thread show the dangers of using people like heroin or what?

it's never a good idea to enter into a relationship in order to kill the pain of a past relationship. it works temporarily, sure, and you feel all warm and fuzzy and happy and loved, but sooner rather than later, you come down hard. so you increase your consumption, but it's not enough. you're not feeling good, and you're not getting that incredible high anymore. and it's getting harder and harder to score! in the meantime, yer life's down the toilet, and it reaches the point where you take it not to feel good, but to keep from feeling bad.

the message? be aware of when you are emotionally vulnerable and take steps to care for yourself. lovers are not heroin, though God knows they can be just as expensive.

mel, you have such a way with words

*goes back to detox now and picks up another chip*

Gypsy ~ clean 5wks and counting :p

Originally posted by Trish
We can be our worst enemy, by settling for someone who doesn't treat us well. We never need to settle.

I've done alot of reflection lately, and came to realize one important feature of my personality that seems to turn a potential good relationship bad quickly. This goes for relationships with coworkers, family, friends, and potential partners.

BOUNDARIES!! I had a counselor once tell me that I train people to treat me badly, by not drawing clear boundaries and sticking to them. I constantly redraw the lines in the sand when pushed, to avoid conflict or abandonment. I try to help someone and quickly become a source of dependency for them.

I have trouble with my uncle running over me and constantly crossing boundaries I've tried to establish. I've had girlfriends use me until one day I said "no" and then had them walk away from the friendship, cuz the gravy train dried up. Sooo many times, I've seen people treat me differently than everyone else, cuz I LET THEM ! My own daughter is learning to push me, in hopes I'll keep bending the rules.

My ex doesn't treat his new girlfriend the way he treated me...... constantly pushing and driving everything to his wants and desires. I would guess it's because she doesn't allow it.

I am my own worst enemy for being "too nice" to people and letting them walk over me, ignoring my needs and boundaries, and learning to disrespect me along the way.

A healthy relationship requires more than LOVE.... more than ATTRACTION ...... it requires RESPECT!!! If I don't change this aspect of my personality and thinking...... I will continue to find myself in relationships where I'm giving too much and getting nothing back.

Hmmm........ I think I'll start a new thread on this topic. :-)

why, thank you, trish!

it's so nice to be admired, instead of the usual reviling and trashing i get around here. i guess my check cleared, right?:D

and now a book recommendation: The Dance of Intimacy: A Woman's Guide to Courageous Acts of Change in Key Relationships, by Harriet Goldhor Lerner, Ph.D. available at your finer bookstores, and online shopping services. read it: you can only benefit.