Pre-nup Agreements

So T and I were discussing marriage last night, and T made the comment that he woulden't beable to marry me unless I signed a pre-nup agreement when it came to his land... (T owns ALOT of farm land)

We were also talking about bank accounts and he said I woulden't have acess to his.........

UHHHHH WHAT THE HECK!??!?! So now im completly upset, I mean to me a pre-nup is pretty much domming the marriage. He's also saying he dosen't trust me financial wise...Well truth be told I dont want his stinkin money, and I can support myself and if needed our child to...

So do I have a right to be angry here? Or is it my hormones over reacting? How do I discuss this with him again without lashing out?

that doesn't sound like a very pleasant conversation. I guess I have a couple of reactions.

1) A pre-nup doesn't necssarily doom the marriage. I actually offered to sign one with my husband, since he had been burned so badly by his ex-wife. I wanted him to trust me, so it was largely symbolic - because I just don't see us ever getting divorced. But, he said it was entirely unnecessary.

2) The thing about you not having "access" to his money is a little odd. In my mind, once you are married everything is "shared" - not his money and my money - in theory. At the moment, my husband and I have a shared bank account that I use and one of his that he uses. Both of our names are on both accounts, but we just tend to each use "our own". But, because he makes so much more money than I do, he pays most of the bills out of "his" account, and I use "mine" more for spending money.

Does he mean that you would have NO access - as in your name wouldn't even be on the account? Or just that he thinks you should continue to have some separate finances? If it is the former, that sounds bad to me. I mean, what if something happened to him? He was incapacitated or (god forbid) killed? You might have to go through all sorts of legal hoops to get at money that should by all rights be yours? If it is the latter, that doesn't sound at all out of the ordinary.

3) The "not trusting you with money" part sends up real red flags to me. I realize there are extenuating circumstances in your case with the baby on the way. But, that just sounds like a VERY controlling thing to say. Unless you have had a long history of really bad financial decisions, bankruptcies, uncontrollable debt, etc. it just seems completely one-sided for him to say: I am the only one in the family that can make any financial decisions - you are too irresponsible. That sounds more like a father than a husband.

I guess I would talk to him about this in a rational way. Do not do it when you are upset about anything. Explain to him what your financial history is, and ask him why he would say such a thing. I would tell him that you think that finances are something that should be discussed and worked on by BOTH of you, not just him. Tell him that it makes YOU very uncomfortable to know that he would be in sole control of your money. That makes you completely dependent on him, and puts you in a subservient position. You are going to be his WIFE, not his child. Maybe he just doesn't realize this?

I just had a conversation with my husband where he said he was really tempted to tell me that I should give him all the money I earn, and he could dole it out to me on a weekly basis. He said that he knew he couldn't do that, that it wasn't right, but that was what his father had always done with his mother, and he still kind of felt like that was "what men did". So, there are sometimes issues like that which have to be dealt with.

Good luck!

Softee, perhaps it is your homones.

There are two sides to this. One is emotion. The other is logic. Your hitting the emotional one straight on it seems. So let me look at the logic from my poiint of view.

He is smart to protect that which he has worked for / inherited. Why do you chastise him for this?

Is not 'love' emotional? Now, is marriage 'love' or is marriage a contract?

[Some parents have a contrat with a child as the child and parent need to know the 'bounds' of their repsonsibilities. Why should that be necessary when the parent 'loves' the child?]

Perhaps one of the problems couples face these days could be alleviated a bit by having a contract beyond even what a pre-nup is. It sets bounds. Not a bad thing a good contract is.

I would ask you why a pre-nup concerning the 'land' is so grating to you? Why is it damming to a marriage?

Now, most states protect ownership in real/personal property that one brings into a marriage. Only that purchased within the marriage is considered possessory to the marriage.

Now, this is tough to write but......
What guarantee can you offer that your 'love' will be there 5 years from now? or 10 or 20 years from now? My ex said 'till death do we part'... she forgot to add 'or until I graduate from vet school or stop loving you'.

BTW, I'm still alive:)

I have no problem with a pre-nup, especially when one owns such as he does.

JMO.

I agree with MadBess completely. (and Yikes about the getting an allowance from your own paycheck thing! What year is this?)

The pre-nup wouldn't be a problem with me, but the thing about not trusting you with money and his attitude about the whole thing would be. If I remember from another post, he's told you that you were irresponsible and couldn't be trusted before, right? That doesn't sound like much of an equal partnership to me.

I don't know if you live in a community property state, or how a pre-nup would affect that, but your finances are certainly going to get entangled when you get married, whether he likes it or not.

Softiee, I would suggest consulting a lawyer yourself before you sign anything should you become serious about marrying him. A pre-nup is to protect his best interests while you should keep a look out for your own and especially that of your coming child.

Softie...

Although this may seem tangental...IF he didnt encourage...i might even say 'require' you to see an independent attorney to counsel you on the pre-nup...then I DO have a problem with this guy.

It IS a sensitive discussion to realize how you share assets...especially if there are already children in his (or your) life.

I don't think the pre-nup is wrong...but I sure would think it would be a difficult maze to work through together.

The IrishKid

I don't think I would marry someone who want me to sign a pre-nup. Because it tells me that he doesn't really know who 'I' am or what kind of person I am. Ya know?? Its like, I wouldn't feel trusted completely. Ya, I know that people get totally raped of everything through divorces and crap. But, thats why you are with someone else and you should be in complete understanding with them.

The bank account thing is a little odd. I can see why people have a joint account and then an individual account to stash money for surprises or emergency money. He is being very cautious with you and I wonder why he is willing to marry you , but giving all these standards. I'm no sure about this one. You guys need to talk about this, especially if your upset.

I'd have to say I feel about the same.

And this is even after being completely taken to the cleaners by a marriage/divorce.

I wouldn't begin to think of asking for a Pre-Nup, I'd just have to continue living my life once again 'If' the time ever came where we parted ways.

I guess material things just don't have the same value to me as to some people.

Don

HEy softee.. It's not your hormones.. If you are screaming and yelling and getting upset that may be your hormones... But anyway....

I wouldn't sign a prenup either.... Expecially where you are having his child.....He should trust you explicitly.... If you do have a prenup make it so it's ONLY the farm land and nothing else..... If he marries you this means he trusts you completely if he doesn't then you shouldn't marry until he does..... at least that's how I feel... I trust my husband with my life.....So If I were you I would definatly see a lawyer DO NOT SIGN IT without a Lawyer!!! I can't tell you what to do.. But if you don't want to sign it then DON'T... don't sign it because your afraid he'll leave you because a marriage can't be healthy if you feel like you were cornered...Good Luck hon....

Be honest with him!!

Softiee, it is definately your raging hormones reacting here.

Basically, a pre-nup protects only the finances that T created prior to the marriage. In other words, if he purchases more farm property after you two get married and you two later divorce, you are entitled to 50% of that and all financial gains made during the marriage as well. That's all. He's only protecting the assets that he's created on his own. In addition, it protects you and him from being responsible for the other's liabilities prior to the marriage.

Jesus. Okay. It protects him. From the life he incurred BEFORE he met you... BEFORE you got pregnant. From all of his "assets."

I am not clear headed right now. Not at all. But Chosen 1, you are being ridiculous, too. A prenuptial is..... shoot. Almost like saying, "I will marry you, BUT.... Aren't YOU the lucky one?!" Screw that. You are better than that. He either loves you with his entire being or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then screw him.

The thing is, that is what Marriage is about. It's MARRIAGE. And don't take it lightly. It is about sharing so much more than money.... it is giving away and assigning, in a sense, Who You Are. Another person, suddenly, has rights to things about you that you never dreamed another person could claim. Money is miniscule. And if he is thinking about that... - the money - then.... shoot. Again, I am not thinking clearly. Sorry.

I haven't liked him, Softee, from the first moment I read the post where he went ballistic when he discovered you were pregnant. I don't like him. But that is irrelevant. A prenup ... well, it's your decision. But I wouldn't do it. No matter what.

Originally posted by Thea
Jesus. Okay. It protects him. From the life he incurred BEFORE he met you... BEFORE you got pregnant. From all of his "assets."

I am not clear headed right now. Not at all. But Chosen 1, you are being ridiculous, too. A prenuptial is..... ****. Almost like saying, "I will marry you, BUT.... Aren't YOU the lucky one?!" Screw that. You are better than that. He either loves you with his entire being or he doesn't. If he doesn't, then screw him.

Of course you feel that way Thea, most WOMEN do. Not to sound sexist but most women look down on pre-nups just as most men turn their nose up on marrying a woman and taking her name as opposed to her taking his.

NOW THE TRUTH: I said nothing about him getting out of child support if Softiee signs a pre-nup. That's an entirely different issue, in which case, he's required by law to pay Softiee child support whether they marry or not.

This matter is often discussed by a radio DJ here in California name Tom Leykis (www.blowmeuptom.com). One guy called the station and explained how he made less than his wife and she had an affair on him. Yet at the divorce trial, she won the house and half of what little assets he had. While she's living in the guy's home (with her new boyfriend) that the ex-husband got from his parents, the ex-husband has to live in his car. How's that for fair?

What if his assets were actually an inheritance from his parents? Then they divorce and half of it goes to Softiee, though she's done nothing to contribute to it before they were ever married. That asset was there and it was his all along. So why should she be entitled to it simply because she said, I DO, to him?

I would recommend the separate bank accounts because it protects Softiee with the money that she makes. That way, if she makes her own money, he can't touch it without her knowing.

However Thea, you also mentioned something about Softiee's OM being uptight about her getting pregnant. I remember that thread but never really got to read it. If that is true (and I'm not accusing you of lying Thea), IMO Softiee I wouldn't even consider marrying him if he feels that way about your pregnacy. I'm surprised that he hasn't accused you of "trapping him" into marrying him. If he's haven't doubts of your having his baby (not of the fathering of the baby but having it), he may end up having doubts on the marriage later.

I only have a few moments to respond and all write more later..

First Yes T did freak out at first when he found out I was pregnant, but he had alot going on, and came running back crying and apoligizing later that day- (I was the one that continued to be angry)

Chosen- I understand now about the farm land, and thank you.

About the the bank account, Its just the way he's raised I think. I am finanacally stable myself (for a 19 yearold I do well) I have never had a banruptcy/bad credit... I don't fully understand the reasoning behind it, and Im still hurt over it. But truthfully I dont want his money, all I want is him to support this child (Wich I know he will)

Thanks guys for the input and support, I will be having a lawyer look over whatever paperwork is brought to light.

Thanks

Softie, I agree with Thea. How many times has he hurt you and then apologized and said he wouldn't do it again? How many times have you had to forgive him? You can come up with all the excuses in the world for why he treats you the way he does, but you still deserve better. You deserve someone who treats you right the first time, not after he's yelled at you and had to apologize. This is just one more example of a larger pattern. Think about this before you make such a huge commitment.

I know T has his issues, and I know there are areas that we need to work on in our relationship, and im not trying to me excuses for him.. I havent been perfect either...

All I know is that with this baby on the way we are trying to make it work, and just taking it day by day...

again thank you guys for the input, and if T keeps persisting on the documents I will have a lawyer look over them...

Ok, let's all get a few things straight here. Everyone is responding with very emotional reactions based on feelings or past experiences, so I want to take a moment to ease some fears.

Marital rights and property rights post marriage depend on your state. There are 2 types of states, community property states and separate property states.

I know more about community property because I live in a CP state, so I will start with that. If you have assets at the date of marriage that remain separate (like a house that is paid off or car that is paid off or 401K that is not longer being contributed to, etc.), those assets remain 100% yours at the date of dissolution, even if you are married for 20 years. So, if I have a house that is 100% mine and has been paid off when I get married, that house is 100% mine forever, and my husband cannot take 1/2 of it from me in a divorce. But once you get married, all income and assets acquired during the marriage are community property, meaning 1/2 to each spouse, with certain exceptions. For example, if you are married in a CP state and you inherit $$ from someone, 100% of that inheritance is yours and is not subject to 1/2 allocation. There are other exceptions too. All of this gets very complicated, however, when assets or funds that pre dated the marriage get commingled with new assets or funds acquired during the marriage.

In a separate property state, everything remains separate, even earnings, after the date of marriage. I wish I had more info on separate property law, but I really don't, and I don't want to make stuff up!

Importantly though, there are 2 things that you absolutely cannot contract around or waive through a pre-nup: (1) child support, and (2) spousal support. Even if you sign an agreement that says, "I hereby agree that I will never seek spousal support or child support, and that I will never have a right to either forever and ever," that agreement is absolutely VOID and cannot be enforced.

As for agreeing to sign a pre-nup, I would agree to it. I think that it is vital for you to sign one to protect YOUR interests and the interests of your child. Softee, as it stands, the only thing you have to gain upon divorce is probably spousal support and maybe 1/2 of what he earns during the marriage. I can completely understand why he wants you to sign one too. He has probably worked his entire life and wants to protect himself in case things don't work out. As for the finances issue, I am not sure what to say to that because I can see both sides. Softee, aren't you only 19? That's a pretty young age to be trusted with another person's financial well-being. I'm not saying that you are not capable of it or that you should not be trusted by any means, especially in light of the fact that he IS MARRYING you. I guess I'm trying to think of how I would feel if I fell in love with a 19 year old man, and if I would trust him with my money. I would like to think I would, but I really don't know! Regardless of age, if he is unwilling to give you access to any money, then that is definitely unacceptable. That is a totally unequal partnership and is not right. If however, he is willing to give you access to some of the finances, then that is ok. I would not expect him to give you 100% access to all of his finances.

I think the most important thing that a pre nup can do for you is to expand your rights, like maybe giving you some of the land but not 50% (keeping in mind that without one you would be entitled to none of the land). It can also iron out some important issues dealing with your child as well. I know one couple who signed an agreement that made it so neither parent could move their children out of a certain school district, to prevent one parent from moving across the country with the kids.

What I am trying to say here is that pre nups are not all bad. I think that yes, they might take the romance and the "we're going to be forever until we die" fantasy out of marriage, but let's face it, people get divorced, so why not protect yourself?

You don't want his land, or his bank account. Good, at least we're in understanding there.

You do want his trust and treatment as an equal partner. In your case, you will be signing away both just from the comments he's made to you about not knowing how to handle money.

DO NOT EVER ignore this.


In my opinion, you should very carefully and logically examine what this means. You do not need to marry him. I know you are pregnant and baby makes three, but just because you are having a child he fathered does not mean marriage is required. He is not allowed to father you; only your child, so I think you need to put everything on hold and really deeply think about whether you want to be legally bound to someone who wants his to be his and yours to be his, or maybe yours at his discretion.

Try, try, try to honestly answer yourself this: If you were not pregnant, would you be willing to marry him on these grounds, or would you even be considering marriage at ALL?


I am not trying to rain on your parade, but for your own good and thus the good of your baby, don't jump into a situation that might not be good for either of you. Remember, you now have to worry about the well-being of someone completely helpless, so you better be sure that your decisions are made with both of you in mind. A mother cannot do her job in a way her baby deserves if she is in a bad place herself. Please think it over.

For what its worth, my husband and I have three accounts - mine, his and ours. We both regularly contribute to the joint account what is needed to cover our joint expenses based on our income (right now we contributed 50/50). All household expenses are paid out of our joint account. He and I spend the money in our own accounts for our individual expenses (i.e. child support, student loans, etc.) This was his idea and it has worked very well for us over the last three years.

That doesn't sound like a bad plan, but Softie's situation seems more like he's acting like she's an irresponsible child who can't be trusted with anything important. True, she's 19 and doesn't have as much experience with finances as he does. But he knew that when they first got involved. If he's not comfortable with that then they should think twice about getting married right now.

Again, I don't see a real problem with a pre-nup. It could be helpful just to define what everyone's rights are. My problem is with the idea that she feels he is treating her more like his child than his partner. Until I hear of some evidence that she really is irresponsible with money or with anything else, I'm going to go with my initial impression that he's trying to use her age against her. I've had a pretty poor opinion of T since Softie first posted about him, and I haven't seen anything yet that would change my mind. All I can say is if any guy treated me that way he'd be out at the curb so fast he'd be dizzy for a week.

you're 19 years old. are you ready to commit the next 18 or 19 years of your life to raising a child? are there any guarantees your boyfriend will be around for all those years (emphasis mine)? can you cope with sleepless nights, round the clock feedings, diaper changing, hours of screaming and crying, always being tired, never getting enough sleep, not having enough money for whatever your child wants, or for quality childcare? are you ready to do the hardest job in the world? are you willing to sacrifice everything you love in order to bear, give birth and raise this child? to give up the average activities of a 19 year old girl? will your boyfriend agree to support the child until he/she is 18, as the law says, regardless of whether you stay together or not?

i said this in ms. softiee's thread on 'reality' and it bears repeating.

Ummm Meslinda I know where your going with this and Im SOrry an abortion is NOT and apotion FOR ME. And this issue of T supporting the child isent what this thread was aimed at. I was asking for advice on Pre-nups.

I know T will support this child, and i know he has issues and all that stuff, I just wanted feed back on the pren-ups.

I got alot of excellent feedback per the laws (thanks emmie) and thats what I needed.

In regards to me having an abortion and so forth, Im sorry if I get angry here, but I didnt ask for THAT KIND OF ADVICE. I know this is what you think is the best idea weither it was in PM/ or the rest of that previous thread.

Thanks all for the advice.

Pre-Nuptial agreements, or contracts as they call them here are pretty much common in Europe. Not at all in Brazil, where it would be seen as lack of trust.

In Europe people just do it, and I find it a bit strange, but I understand they do it because during divorces it facilitates parting things; anyway, I suppose the law is the same in the US as it is in most countries around the world, marriages nowadays automatically follow into the category where all the things acquired together after the marriage, belong to both partners, but whatever belonged to them separately before the marriage, will remain separated (unless there's another pre-nup aggreement). When you don't sign any agreement, that's usually how it works in modern Law. But I'm not sure about your country.

Now, the problem here is that you feel something is wrong, the way he's treating you concerning money is not right. Do you feel he might be thinking you got pregnant just for his money? Do you have the slightest suspicion it might be that?
Once you get into such a situation, where you feel trapped between the pregnancy and his behaviour, I have the impression your instincts will lead you to marriage. But you have to know that, if there were no pregnancy, you would probably NOT get married and you would wait until you knew better what he meant with this new attitude.

We can't always take the best path, but if you can't take it, be sure you know exactly what you will have to do as plan B.

:o

I just read Emmie's post... I think the legal part of it is pretty much reassuring. I had a friend sign a "separate property" agreement, and she lost everything they had bought after marriage, because she didn't keep the receipts. It seems you have to prove what is yours and what is not, and those receipts are important.

It's sad to discuss this before marriage, but even worse during divorce.:(

I've never been married myself, so my actual experience is limited somewhat. For as long as I can remember, my parents have always had completely joint finances. My dad played a lot of tricks of putting different assets (cars, houses, whatever) in his name, mom's name, or joint so that if anything ever happened to either one of them there would be some things that the other could get ahold of and sell easily without going through crazy legal hoops, but the reality was always that everything was jointly owned, even if it didn't show up that way "legally". My dad pretty much managed the finances, but that was because he's really good at that, and my mom just let him, and even so, he always told her everything that he was doing and why, so she had a good understanding of what was going on. And they never made big purchases without talking it out together.

I was almost 18 before I realized that there was any other way to do it. My parents had always done it that way and I just didn't think anything of it, until I was talking with a good friend of mine. His mother is slightly crazy (literally - she's been in and out of clinics for years), and can be completely irresponsible, so his dad had been forced to take her name completely off of everything to avoid total financial ruin. It was quite a shock to me to realize that things like that happened because it was so different from what I'd seen all my life.

So here's my perspective on the whole deal. There are good reasons for prenups, and good reasons for having totally separate finances. And sometimes those reasons are practical rather than trust based. But if my wife-to-be didn't trust me to be joint on her finances, or if I couldn't trust her, then I would seriously reconsider why I was marrying her in the first place. To me, trust is the number one most important part of a relationship, and if it's not there, then there isn't really much of a relationship.

The bottom line is, you either trust this person or you don't. Sure, sometimes when you trust people you get burned (by definition, you can only be betrayed by the people you trust). But if you don't trust, you lose out on a lot, too.

From the sound of things, Softiee, this guy wants you to sign because he doesn't trust you, and that should tell you something.

Softiee, I don't think Melisande was suggesting you abort. We don't even know if that's still an option for you at this point from a medical standpoint, but we do know you're not going to do that. You know that's not the only option though. You *could* still allow the baby to be adopted.

I know it's not what you want to do, but I wanted to point out that fact.

Softie, Emmie and Rhadamanthus both had good points, so ditto.

I don’t know all the details of your relationship (seems like many people are concerned about his treatment of you) but maybe this is a symptom of other problems. Speaking from experience, a premarital counselor could help. Would T go? Sometimes a third person can really help communication.

As a side note, had our state not kept premarital assets separate, I would have asked C for a prenup. I have some (modest) premarital assets I have not (and have no plans to) put C’s name on. While I consider these to be ours, I don’t want his children, one of whom is 25 and still has no job, to ever have access to them. So, a prenup would have had nothing to do with trusting him and everything to do with protecting me. I guess this supports Emmie’s point. For similar reasons we have maintained separate financial “stuff” for most of our relationship. We recently consolidated after buying a house, but made wills to protect me against claims from his children or ex.

Good luck,
Meg