Boundaries....

I posted under another thread about this and wanted to bring this topic up for discussion.

BOUNDARIES!! How many of us (male and female) find themselves feeling like a doormat sometimes? Whether it's a family member, coworker, friend or partner. Do you find setting boundaries difficult? Are you tempted to constantly move the "line in the sand" to keep the peace?

I've done alot of reflection lately, and came to realize one important feature of my personality that seems to turn a potential good relationship bad quickly. This goes for relationships with coworkers, family, friends, and partners.

I had a counselor once tell me that I train people to treat me badly, by not drawing clear boundaries and sticking to them. I constantly redraw the lines when pushed, to avoid conflict or abandonment. I try to help someone and quickly become a source of dependency for them. (can you say NO?)

I have trouble with my uncle running over me and constantly crossing boundaries I've tried to establish. I've had girlfriends use me until one day I said "no" and then had them walk away from the friendship, cuz the gravy train dried up. Sooo many times, I've seen people treat me differently than everyone else, cuz I LET THEM ! My own daughter is learning to push me, in hopes I'll keep bending the rules.

My ex doesn't treat his new girlfriend the way he treated me...... constantly pushed and drove everything to his wants and desires..... downright bullied and threw tantrums with me. I would guess she doesn't tolerate it, so it doesn't happen.

I am my own worst enemy for being "too nice" to people and letting them walk over me, ignoring my needs and boundaries, and learning to disrespect me along the way.

A healthy relationship requires more than LOVE.... more than ATTRACTION ...... it requires RESPECT!!! If I don't change this aspect of my personality and thinking...... I will continue to find myself in relationships where I'm giving too much and getting nothing back.

Anyone want to share their wisdom, thoughts or stories on setting BOUNDARIES?

I'd love to just hear an open discussion regarding this topic.

OH, and if you've read any good books on

"Codependency"
"Setting Boundaries"
"Adult Children of Alcoholics"
"Getting your head out your A$$" (haha)

....... feel free to list em here!! ;)

{{GROUP HUGS}}

Or a link to the organization....

Women Who Get Their Heads Out Of Their Asses

would also be appreciated. ;)

*LOL* Marcy, I'm still searching for that link!

ok...... Melisande posted this under another thread, copying it here

and now a book recommendation: The Dance of Intimacy: A Woman's Guide to Courageous Acts of Change in Key Relationships, by Harriet Goldhor Lerner, Ph.D. available at your finer bookstores, and online shopping services. read it: you can only benefit.

Thanks for posting this topic. I've struggled with this issue myself. I can say that although I've had similar experiences to Gypsyheart's experiences, there have been people that have not taken advantage and have been there with me through thick and thin. I believe that the average person can be trained to be unkind to you if you have trouble with boundaries, but there will be exceptional people who will see you as exceptional.

I do believe it is better to learn to have boundaries though. I think my trouble began because I was an only-child who had very sweet, doting parents and was always treated fairly. Never had to fight for my toys, or anything else. I had a generous attitude with all I met, imitating the way my folks, and family had been with me. I was always surprised when others were not the same way. Why they would often take, but not give.

Self-esteem issues could also be involved. If you think you are of lesser worth, you may be inclined to give yourself away in the hopes of getting love. So, I do think that boundary issues can stem from different things.

I've found it easier to set them, by being successful a time or two, realizing it was fairly easy. Especially with men. I've learned that they often do not know exactly what it is we as women want and feel they must be mind readers. Most men do want to please, and if you can tell them what it is you want, they often cheerfully do it...you praise them...and it is a win/win situation.

In my marriage, I think I expected him to know what I wanted and appreciate that often when finances were low, I'd avoid asking for what was needed because I did not want to make him feel badly. Then, he'd come home with a new boat or something and I'd feel like he didn't love me, the kids, as evidenced by not thinking about what we needed. But, I didn't ask. Now I do in my new relationships and find that it works out a lot better. And with each success of getting what I want and need, and setting limits upon what I can do for others, it becomes easier. And I do feel I am loved and appreciated by more people than just the exceptional few.

I posted a little about this on your other thread. I was not aware that my problem was that I did not know how to set boundaries until a counselor told me.

I wondered why people were always mean to me and why they wouldn't do what I asked when they said they loved me. I wondered why I was always being taken advantage of and used.

I had a boy friend who I thought was wonderful to me, he took me nice places and he bought me gifts, he said he loved me and wanted to marry me. I went to a counselor because for some odd reason I was very unhappy with him and of course I blamed myself. She is the one that asked me "why do you always date men that treat you poorly?" I had no idea what she meant, he held doors for me, and as I said spent money on me and complimented me ALL the time.

What he didn't do is listen to me. He totally devalued my opinions and feelings. "You shouldn't feel that way" "You should want this or that" He wanted to marry me and wanted me to stay home and have children. I had just gone back to work after being a stay at home mother for 9 years and did not want to go back into that. He said I should want to. He wanted me to let him tell me what house to buy, I bought one without his approval and he was livid. He talked CONSTANTLY about his past relationships even though I BEGGED him not to because I "shouldn't mind it" etc etc.

Later I started to learn how to tell people I didn't like what they were doing without feeling guilty. Like a guy who broke up with me because I wouldn't date him if he went to a strip bar. Apparantly that strip bar meant more to him than me. And finally my recent ex who would not say anything nice to my son but criticized him all day long. I feel no pain or confusion about not being with him.

But it is still a struggle. My current boyfriend gives me TMI about his past relationships but now I am a lot stronger than I was in that previous relationship and it does't bother me so much and I am listening so I can learn more about his attitudes and values. He doesn't do it as much as the past guy but to me, it is TMI. I am wondering where my boundary is on that.

I also dated a guy that had a woman best friend in the past and it drove me nuts, but mostly because he called her his BEST friend. And they went out together without me.

My new guy also goes out with a woman friend. I don't mind so much because she is not his BEST friend and it seems harmless. But where is my boundary on that?

Gypsyheart,

You are a a lovely woman. Nice thread to start here.

I really haven't had many problems with setting boundaries, especially with men. But I see lots and lots of women in particular, who have trouble setting boundaries with their families.

Somehow if someone is dumping on you and they are a family member, especially your mom or your children, then all boundaries are off. Why do we buy into that? I am the parent of an 18 year old and a 25 year old. Those two try to dump on me all the time with their issues about how I run my life and who my friends are, etc, why am I interested in a YM, etc. And it is a real struggle at times not to feel put down or put off by the very people you loved and raised to be who they want to be! I also gave them the means to achieve their goals. I have to say I refuse to buy into the philosophy that they are "my babies for life" just because I am their mother. I can't interfere in their lives, yet both of them want me to be who THEY want me to be. I've had to set some tough boundaries, and some painful ones, just to live my life where I can be happy! I have to forget about having their approval.

I am a educated, sophisticated, independent woman with a wonderful career. Some people think I'm pretty amazing, I hope. BUT If I'm not the cookie baking mom they always wanted,
i'm sorry, they can go find a man or woman who will be the mommy they want to them, and let me move on!

Go sista!!! lol

Ok, that is an issue that I do agree is a very important one to address.

Personally speaking, I am not bad at setting boundaries, but also not good yet. I have never been treated badly or been taken advantage off, basically, because I don't allow it - I am good with that kind of boundary - and being a fairly sceptical mind, not too much of pleaser (even though I don't like confrontation either) and generally being good in assessing people, it tends to work out well.

The same applies with men, so I haven't had any bad experiences. Some might even argue that i tend to be on the egocentrical side because I do reserve the right to look after my own interest; I don't think I do this at all costs or on other people expenses, but I do keep an eye on my interest and accept only what I feel comfy with (if I have a choice).

I DO have boundary issues with my family though - being the signficantly youngest child in a large family means that always anyone anywhere thinks they got to take care of me, my interest etc. Which is really sweet in one way, but with a bunch of do-good'ers who always think they know better and are just acting in my best interest without sharing my values or preferences, I do find it sometimes hard to stand up to them.
Basically, because they really do mean well and they do not mean to be overbearing & controlling ... - so, I do often enough give in, and do not maintain my boundaries to them in as much as I should . working on this though ;)

But these are the main weak spots I have; outside family, I think I am generally quite laid-back and tolerant, but vigilant; mind you, good appraisal skills in people does help a lot, I believe, on keeping the "drags" out - I just don't know how this can be trained ..

As we are on the subject of self-analysis, though: something that is not boundary-related but could also provide food for thought: It might be worthwhile looking into one's family relationship with parents - normally there are patterns/roles allocated in a family, which might be shifting but show some patterns.

I had a revelation the other day when I got cought up in mediating kinda automatically between Nordic and some of our joint friends when they were on the verge of falling out with each other - Nordic didn't want me to interfere, the other friend asked me for advise, and I ended up mediating, ... because I couldn't handle the tension between them ... - and I had the revelation the following day, that this always used to be my "family" role with my parents when there were disagreements & arguments - both looked at me to mediate between them - and it became so automatic, that I even do this to the day, if tension exists between people I care about - it's like I cannot keep out until it is removed ... - can cause major upset, not only for me, ofc (Nordic was pissed as hell at me, rightly so, for getting involved - after all it was not my business, I just happened to be around and both sides were talking to me).

So, bottomline, there are "trained" patterns of behaviour that you might be aware off but that you are falling into automatically whenever "triggered" ...

Recognition - consciousness - de-programming ... - it's really been helpful to stop automatic responses if you are just even aware of it ;) it still will take to find alterntative coping mechanisms, but I am sure it can be done ;)
Another thing I am working on :D

Wow, this is a great thread! I think a lot of woman are conditioned from an early age to be kind, nurturing, not make waves, not be impolite, and this tranfers later in life to doormats! I was one. My ex husband used me, abused me, and I just kept on thinking I could "fix" him and it would get better.

My dad, while he loves my mother dearly and most times lets her have her way, can tend to be a tantrum thrower and she tries to appease him. I think that's where I got my "training" for being in a relationship. The other thing is however, he's also a minister, and my parents taught me from a very early age 'tis better to give even than receive. Well, as I grew older, that meant, "Give, but don't ask anything in return." That's fine if you're helping a homeless person or a sick child, but it's not fine in relationships of any kind! I too, let girlfriends walk all over me and when I put my foot down, the friendship was over. I too, took too much criticism from my parents, and as an adult, I finally put my foot down and told them they either had to show me respect or I wouldn't see them anymore. We didn't speak for about 6 months, but we finally started talking again, and worked things out. They don't disrespect me anymore. Finally, I found the courage to put my foot down with men. I was seeing a family therapist with my kids, and I read the book, "Your Erroneous Zones" by Dr. Wayne Dyer, and I learned that I deserverd to be happy, I deserved to be treated well, and to only surround myself with people who would do that.

Now if I could just stick to that theory when it comes to my kids!!! Setting boundaries for my kids is so hard. I was a single mother for five years, struggled with the bills, our schedules were chaotic, so I pretty much out of guilt let them get away with just about anything. When Robin moved in with me, he was like, WTF??? He has taught me to parent more firmly and effectively. When I am about to "cave in" to the kids' demands, or "buckle" under their constant begging, he steps in, just like Superman, and lifts me out of the way....then he says, "No! You're still grounded until your grades improve. I'LL say when you're not grounded anymore! Leave your mother alone!" :D He's a Godsend for a total marshmallow like me!

Funny about kids, the only one I have ever had a problem with is my daughter because she thinks she is my mother. But really it has only happened a couple of times. Once was last night. I had told her that I was having a friend over for dinner last weekend and she put two and two together and realized that it was a guy I met on the internet.

She read me the riot act about exposing myself and HER brother to danger bringing strangers home. I told her I had met him and his co workers and his roommate and his friends before bringing him home. She didn't let up.

I finally said, are you done? Or should I hang up? It is hard because actually she is a wise and beautiful woman, but I am the mother and this is something she has trouble understanding.

I love her beyond measure but she won't control my life.

Thanks for opening this discussion, Gypsy. I belong to the same club as you. Seems I cant set a boundary to save my life. I know how I would like things to be, but I cant seem to make it happen. I've never really thought about it, but I think in the back of my mind, maybe I'm afraid of the rejection of someone I love if I set some kind of limit with them. I know thats a dumb thing to think, and that we're all entitled to being treated the way we want to be treated, but we also all want to be liked and I think maybe they wont like me or love me anymore if I set boundaries with them. Alot of people live their lives with the attitude "I dont give a damn what other people think" but some of us arent like that - we do care. I'm just realizing that if the only reason they like me is because they can walk all over me, then thats wrong!! We should all value and respect ourselves enough to make sure we're treated the way we want to be. My ex used and abused me too, and I always blamed him - HE was the one who was mean!! And I just wanted to slap Dr. Phil for saying "we teach people how to treat us"!!!! But I have to admit, I guess he's right. I'm the one who let my ex get away with mistreating me. I'm the one who lets my kids walk all over me. Swan - I have a daughter who thinks she is the Mom too!! At least your daughter is grown - mine is only 11 !!!!!:eek: Friends who dont like our limits may choose to not be our friends anymore, but family members will probably come around sooner or later. I'm sure there will be a few who wont, but generally speaking, we're pretty much stuck with our relatives lol. Sorry this is so long, but I just had some big realizations all of a sudden!! Thanks again for all the good advice and stories.

Southerngal

southerngal, my daughter has thought she was my mother since she was 11 too LOL

You know, I am wondering how many OW's are guilty of this.
Could this be something some guys pick up on?

I woke up this morning. Let me back up here. Last night when I came home from work(I work afternoon shift, Matt works day) Matt had just rolled in from a night of socializing with his buddies. Who cares? It's his life. I am talking about alcoholism here.

Well we got in a big fight, the main issue being he is driving my vehicle because he ran into a deer with his about 6 mos ago. I cannot drive my little truck because of having seizures.(I love my truck) Recently, I have been trying to set down boundaries, finally,(although I didn't have a name for it until this morning, thanks Gypsy!) I rehearse, and rehearse the dialogue in mind. I am ready to let him have it and try to bring reason to the situation and I back down because I don't want the confrontation. Actually when I do try to express myself in a confrontatinal manner, he twists it, focuses on a non-issue and the fight is over. And I lost it.

Anyhow, there a lot of details tangling this whole thing up and I am going to post in relationships, just to vent, but I just wanted to say that I couldn't believe my eyes with this thread. Matt had just walked out the door to go work, and defeated, I had come here to see what my friends are up to and wind up listening to all you wonderful women who open up here and help each other cope and mend.

I love you all. I am proud to belong to this club but hope we can all learn to "be all that we can be" and not let others control us.

southerngal - look at your sig.

"YOU NEVER LOSE BY LOVING. YOU ALWAYS LOSE BY HOLDING BACK." Barbara De Angelis

It is beautiful, but I think that is what I try to do, but not in the right way!

Gosh, I wish could call you gals up and we could all get together for coffee ot tea this morning and just talk, face to face. I need that so badly!

Hi Obsessing,
Yeah, I really liked that quote from Barbara DeAngelis because I think she means we should all take a chance on love. And that if we stand in the background, never taking a chance, thats when we lose. By the way - I love your sig too. Its my current favorite song ;) I think he must have written it when he was far away from the one he loves.

I can definitely sympathize with you about the drinking. My ex was an alcoholic and played that same game with me. Turning everything I said around and making ME look like the bad guy!! Dont fall for it!! YOU have a legitimate concern if his drinking affects your relationship. My ex got really mean and abusive when he drank and even meaner on drugs. And its kinda hard to set boundaries when someone is threatening your life. But my boundary was finally getting out of the whole situation, and I did - 6 years ago. When they're drunk, they dont even comprehend what you're saying. Then the next day when they're sober and capable of hearing you out, they dont wanna talk about it or dont think they did anything wrong. Its a no win situation! Now its my kids and just people in general that I have to deal with. Like the rest of you said, when you're a nice person, its just seems harder to set limits. Like Polly said, we're all a bunch of marshmallows lol.

Hang in there - and keep writing!!

Southerngal

SG - yep that pretty much describes the cycle except Matt is never really mean to me. But talking the next is about as useless as talking that night so I tend to let it go.

I keep thinking things will change. Maybe they actually won't.

It really pees me off how much this has effected what was a really good thing. What a waste.

Originally posted by Nessa
I think for so many women bounderies are difficult. I know they are for me. I never even knew what they were for many years.

co-dependancey is ugly and I am co-dependant. I try so hard not to be but it's hard.

I guess that's whwere the problem might be Nessa!

Thanks for caring and pm-ing me this orning. It was good to talk to you!

Hope you heal quickly!

What an excellent topic. For years, I thought I was the only person who lacked the ability to say no. Thank you all for sharing.

I took a course following my divorce based on the book, Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. This identified the different personalities, i.e. Compliants, Avoidants, Controllers, and Non-responsives. That alone was eye-opening for the people in the class. Next, it explained how boundaries actually help free you and allow you to interact successfully with others. It positively changed my life at such a crucial time. I highly recommend it :)

Do your boundries sometimes depend on who you are dealing with? I find with me it really depends on the personality and the situation that is involved. I wish there was a handbook on when to be flexible and when to really stand your ground.

Barbara DeAngelis is great. I've also read a book called "A Woman's Worth", by Marianne Williamson.

In it she talks about how loving doesn't mean being someone's door mat. And I think some women at times have difficulty with this. I know I did.

"Something More", by Sarah Ban Breathnach is also a great read.

I think “setting” our boundaries is simple – what’s hard is feeling comfortable and confident in enforcing our boundaries. This is an almost universal problem in our Western society, but individually we can learn to cope without succumbing to our 'fight or flight' instincts.

Manuel J. Smith, in his book “When I Say No I Feel Guilty,” explains the various ways people manipulate us and provides several conflict-coping techniques that are both fairly easy to understand and useful to enhance one’s self-esteem. I highly recommend this book.

Criticism seems to be the most difficult manipulation to recognize and cope with, because criticism usually imposes some arbitrary structure which outlines the rules of right and wrong; how things “should” really be. I think this is what Swan was dealing with relating to her past boyfriend:

What he didn't do is listen to me. He totally devalued my opinions and feelings. "You shouldn't feel that way" "You should want this or that" He wanted to marry me and wanted me to stay home and have children. I had just gone back to work after being a stay at home mother for 9 years and did not want to go back into that. He said I should want to. He wanted me to let him tell me what house to buy, I bought one without his approval and he was livid. He talked CONSTANTLY about his past relationships even though I BEGGED him not to because I "shouldn't mind it" etc etc.

Smith teaches techniques such as Broken Record, Fogging, Negative Inquiry and Negative Assertion to deal with manipulate and assertively enforce our boundaries. These techniques work and I've employed them in my life. It is an extremely satisfying feeling to be calmly, rationally assertive in a situation where before you would have felt like you were a doormat.

It is difficult to learn to be assertive and avoid manipulation, but the rewards are worth the effort.

This is what Smith calls our “Bill of Assertive Rights” from his book.

I. You have the right to judge your own behavior, thoughts, and emotions, and to take the responsibility for their initiation and consequences upon yourself.
II. You have the right to offer no reasons or excuses for justifying your behavior.
III. You have the right to judge if you are responsible for finding solutions to other people’s problems.
IV. You have the right to change your mind.
V. You have the right to make mistakes-and be responsible for them.
VI. You have the right to say, “I don’t know.”
VII. You have the right to be independent of the goodwill of others before coping with them.
VIII. You have the right to be illogical in making decisions.
IX. You have the right to say, “I don’t understand.”
X. You have the right to say, “I don’t care.”

“You have the right to say no, without feeling guilty.”

I like what SG said " Turning everything I said around and making ME look like the bad guy!! Dont fall for it!!"

Well this week finally made me open up my eyes.............

My ex H.'s dad died Wednesday, he called us at 6am to let us know, I gave him my sympathy and told him I would bring the YS to the funeral, and my OS and I would sit in the back for the funeral, he said quote, "The OS can go, but the family doesn't want you there":confused:
I said, ok but I get along with your family fine, I talke with his mother and sister in law a few times a year on the phone, I was VERY VERY hurt, but I kept my cool and said "OK, just tell me what times you are picking up and dropping off YS"

Ok well the funeral is tomorrow, he just called and said, so where are you going to meet me to drop YS off?:confused:
I said, "I can't I have things to do you will have to come pick him up"
silence.............
than he says "Well I suppose he doesn't have to go to MY fathers funeral, I can't be driving all around the state, I have a baby!! (remember now the ex is the one who moved out of state with his GF while we were married and had a child, I still live in the same county we lived before)
Than he says, "just tell YS that his mom is a f'ing B and that he missed his grandpas funeral because of YOU!!"
Than I say "OK, just let me know if and what time you will pick him up"
him "click"
I am SICK SICK SICK of him over stepping his boundries with me, he still expects me to run for him when he says run, I have HAD it! He is only nice to me when he wants something, and If I don't give it he snaps on me!!
Everything is STILL my fault and we are divorced!
sorry to vent but this boundries thread seemed like a good place!
~SnowP

LOL @ Babes!
You know this thread is really good, I learned 2 things that apply to me, door mat, and marshmellow:D

I Printed out 3 copies of msc 423's Bill of Assertive Rights,
One is one the fridge, one is by the phone and one is in my purse.

I think for me is I don't say "no" to somebody because I don't want to "rock the boat", well thats going to change a bit for me.
I have a right to say no :)

Originally posted by SnowPrincess
I think for me is I don't say "no" to somebody because I don't want to "rock the boat", well thats going to change a bit for me.
I have a right to say no :)

You go, girl! :D

And not only do you have the right to say no, you also have the right to expect this to be respected ;)

My sister made the interesting observation the other day, that it seems so hard for people to accept someone elses "no"! even in small things ("have another drink/helping" etc) - they basically tend to talk them out of it, be it for selfish reasons or because they disagree and want to "help" ...

Just stay firm and tell them "no means no", when they start doing this, don't enter in a debate ;) (as in this BoA where it says you got the right to not have to justify yourself ;) )

Good luck! :D

Good morning....Just reread this whole thread again. I feel like I am studying for a final exam, or am trying to absorp something I really want to know.

There are a bunch of things I'd like to address but will probably forget most of them! crs.

First off - this from softsong

"I believe that the average person can be trained to be unkind to you if you have trouble with boundaries, but there will be exceptional people who will see you as exceptional. "

Can I find one of them please? SOmeone who would recognize your kindness and a sweet disposition and deal with it fairly, not take advantage of it. Probably all our guys here are like that! ;0)

ANd about Dr. Phil saying that you train people how to treat you. Dr.P has a way of exposing the obvious. I do wonder how many lives he has actually changed.

Gypsy - I don't know if you posted it here, but the car allegory is excellent. I have printed that out. Thanks.

This is a wonderful thread worthy of many reads. I am reading it this morning in hopes of gathering my courage to confront bf today.. Well, here it is Sat. morning. Last night, again drunk, I didn't break his balls. He didn't really know how to act, but I just couldn't go into the weekend fighting. so I caved.

My plan is to address a few issues this weekend. I just know what will happen. He will agree with everything. "Baby, I know you're right..." and next week the cycle will begin again.

That's where I need to change. When the shit hits the fan.

I will never get involved in a relationship where I go in from a position of weakness again.

Does anyone ever, I mean ever, fix someone? Does it ever happen? I am asking a legitimate question here. Someone has to be a catalyst for change in another's person's life - isn't it possible? Does anyone know of this happening in a relationship?:)

Babes - it surprised me to learn that you are a doormat at all!
I am wondering if some ofthe discussions about being submissive in the br, are a result of this whole pattern? You know?.....

Hi Obessing!

Hmmmm....I wish I could find some exceptional people and send them your way! Actually, we do have a lot here proportional to the populations en masse. :-)

Just a thought. I believe that besides boundary problems, your bf's drinking brings in another element. When someone's drinking behavior is out-of-control it is more than just a simple boundary problem.

In answer to your question, I believe you can support someone who wants to get better as far as drinking goes, but they must see that there is a problem and want to get better. No one can fix or change anyone. Perhaps be the inspiration, by setting a boundary that says, if this is how you behave, I am gone.

I have no idea how bad a problem his drinking is. So, I am just putting out a few ideas and I am assuming that his drinking is a big problem. I could be wrong.

Well, I am a strong believer that you cannot ever change someone; however, yes, I do think that you can be the catalyst causing someone to change themselves.

I think it was in Al-Anon, and I am sure I can't tell it just right, but they teach you...a relationship is like the workings of a clock, they way the two cogs or wheels inside the clock fit together and move together causing the clock to work. If you change yourself (i.e. handling things etc) and your cog starts to move the opposite direction, one of two things are going to happen....His little cog or wheel is going to change and move in the same direction as yours OR his cog is going to stop moving, and the clock will break. Those are the only two options. But in in the end, you can only change youself, and he has to chose whether to change so that everything runs smoothly...or allow the "clock to break"

I wonder if that made any sense at all?

No ss, it is a major issue that I have addressed ad-nauseum.

Joannalee - I like the clock analogy! That is it exactly! Two people ticking along together. It is actually beautiful.

Thanks Babes and Trish -
about the self-esteem issue. I think he has too much actually. I don't think he can see that he is needy. I could be wrong but seems like a good dose of humility would help him out. I really have never seen him sad to his soul. You know. Reflective. He has apologized to me about things, but just for a minute or so. I believe feelings of sadness won't spur him on, but feelings of inconvenience! I have been changing a little at a time in this relationship. I see him changing and maybe I didn't know the real Matt.

Hope I'm wrong.

When I posted this thread, I had hoped to bring a subject to light that I personally have struggled with my whole life....... I am very happy to see so many share my desire to become more aware and efficient at setting boundaries in some area of our lives.

I had a moment this week where I stood my ground with the ex and felt I had conquered the world later. Just wanted to share and shamelessly bump this thread again.

My ex called Monday in an emotional trainwreck. He accidentally read his fiance's email to her ex boyfriend. In it she told this guy she dreamed of him often and still loved him. The guy is married and mentions asking his wife for a divorce after xmas. (all sounds suspicious to me)

He was devasted. First thing he did was want to know if I still loved him and if we had any chance of reconciling. /sigh......well I managed to talk him through his moment of despair without getting entangled in emotions. I explained I would always love him and miss the beginning years of our marriage, but not what it became..... there was no turning back. He was convinced he was her second choice and a fill-in.

I pointed out "hey look at what you just asked me! Doesn't that make her your second choice?!" I helped him see that seeking closure to old hurts and making peace (as we did) wasn't a end-all to her committment to him. That we all love someone from our past, but we *chose* who we want to be with.

Short of it is...... I gave him new perspective, maintained compassion, didn't cave to emotions and gave him solid advice. He called me the next day with a heartfelt thank you for standing my ground......and being there for him at the same time. They worked it out and he was convinced our conversation made the difference. By enforcing my boundries with him, I finally gained his respect after 15yrs of being his doormat!

It feels freeing when you look back and realize how easy it was to do this and how positive the outcome was. It also made me sad that if I had done this years ago.....maybe things would have been different.

Now I have a new challenge in boundaries...... it seems she is wanting a relationship with me and told him to push for it, and support it. I *think* I can do this.....but he's already sent me a laundry list of things he's done she knows nothing of (past cheating, and other unmentionables)

Not sure how close I wanna get to that situation. I dont do well at keeping the cat in the bag, and she'll know I'm hiding stuff if she ever presses me.

oh well........ this was just a moment I wanted to share and hope all that read remember........ enforcing boundaries is hard to learn.......and will set your guilt ridden, heavy heart free when you do!!! {hugs}

Gypsy~