Daughter VS Boyfriend

My boyfriend who is 22, and I am 49, have been together for nearly four years now. As a result, one of my four children has not talked to me every since. I am hoping that someday he realizes that what is important is my happiness.
My b/f and I have run into different difficulties (we are dealing with diff. culture & religion) as well. My daughter, who lives with me, on the outside accepted him, but underneath never did, and recently told me she hates him. :eek: She and her friend once tried to break us up, and it caused alot of misunderstandings between me and my B/F. It got straightened out, but my b/f has not cared for my daughter since then, and has made it known to me very clearly. :( We had plans of him moving in, but he changed his mind, and said he will wait until my daughter goes out on her own. He still understands that my daughter will always be part of my life, even after she does go on her own. She is only 18, so who knows when, plus she is welcome to stay with me as long as she wants. I kinda sensed a ' who is more important ' feeling from my boyfriend, as when the trouble happened I certainly didn't hold a grudge against her. His culture and family mean different from my culture and family. His being no matter who it is, if they do something to you, it is held against them. I guess I am feeling pulled between the two. I love my daughter with all my heart, but I also love him very deeply too. I want to have a life that my b/f and I planned, and don't want us to depart ways. But I can't seem to make him understand the bond between my daughter and I, and how it is separate from the bond between him and I. Any opinions? Any advice? :confused:

a few questions:

what culture is he from? how did the two of you meet, and does his family know about/accept you? is your life otherwise going well (steady employment, minimal money worries, good health)? is family counseling an option? is your boyfriend's situation also stable?

My boyfriend is from Pakistan, living here now, and is of Muslim religion. His family knows he is seeing an older woman. Money wise I do ok, am on spousal support, but am also looking for work. My health, well, have been suffering from deep depression for a while now, mind you the meds have helped lift me. I am on the road to recovery thank goodness. We actually met through my son, who was his friend. It wasn't planned, the attraction was just there for us both. When it started, I never dreamed that we would fall in love, but here we are, 4 years later....we parted ways twice, for one whole day...we just want to be together. But I really want to settle this situation with my daughter. :confused:

Sooner or later, you may have to choose.

What does one do when they have fallen in love with a person of whom their parents do not approve? If the parents do not change their opinion, either the relationship ends or their child chooses the relationship over the parents approval. Sometimes, the child must distance themselves from their parents. If I were the unapproved of mate, I would want the parents to accept me and the marriage or except my spouse to distance herself from her parents.

I think that sooner or later you may have to decide. Perhaps, your daughter wins the decision now because of her age, but does she win when she is 30? How about when she is 21?

The other questions are how long can you bf wait? and how long can you wait to begin to build your life with him?

I don't know how to change her mind, so I won't try to comment on whether it can be done.

Well, change my daughters mind? I don't think so. If my b/f moved in with me tomorrow, my guess is that she would move out. But that is unlikely to happen, as he is waiting for her to move out, before he moves in. Personally, I would like to start building a life with him now. How can a mother kick her daughter out? And if that happens, there is no chance for reconciliation with the other 3 children at all. So no matter which way I choose, I will lose something. I guess I am am between a rock and a hard place. :(

I considered not responding to this because lately I have been trying to keep my nose out of other people's business, but I have some comments. Not answers just comments.

First of all maybe Peachy should respond to this thread?

Secondly, I have a daughter who has never approved of any man in my life. Kind of a "you're not good enough for my son/daughter in reverse". She is now 25 but this has always been the case and the cause of 100% of our arguments in our lives. But you know what... in my case she has always been right.

Have you ever SERIOUSLY and OPENMINDEDLY looked at their objections to your b/f?

If they only want to be spoilers, and I know some kids are like that, why can't you stand up to her?

If she is 18 it is getting VERY close to the age when I would say to my child, if you don't like it there is the door. And believe me, (though that didn't sound like it) I have devoted my whole life to my children but I will NOT let them dictate my life. EVER. No more than you should dictate theirs and tell them who they can hang out with after they are 18.

You have a right to your life. If you aren't in an obviously abusive relationship where your children are truly trying to protect you, then it is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.

The reason my kids object, number one reason, is the age gap. They feel he is only around me for sex and money. Neither is true, and the latter, well I don't have much of that. Secondly, although they were brought up not to be racist, they do not approve of his culture.

I agree totally with you swan queen. I believe my happiness is first now, and I should choose who to be with. I do not, and have never chosen for them.

I just feel life is way too short for all of this, and myself, would never ever turn my back on my Mom for any reason.

Thank you sincerely for your support.

It is hard for a young man to adjust to a relationship with a woman, older or not, with children. He wants to be your principal love interest, as you are his, and finds it hard to share you, especially with someone who is antagonistic to him. You need to solve this problem immediately or you may lose him. Going to counselling with your daughter might work. You do need to let her know that what she did was unacceptable and that she needs to work this issue out with you NOW or be prepared to find her own lodging in the very near future.

Hmmm... this is a toughy. You have two people, just four years apart, who are trying to vie for control of your attention. :( Both are probably too emotionally immature to really stand back and take stock in what is happening. They should be seeking a way to bring happiness to the life of someone they both love (you! :p ), but instead it's become a power struggle.

Counseling... yup, that's what is needed... counseling. ;)

This type of situation always makes me feel sad. How do these kids profess to love a parent, when they would not tolerate the same situation if it were reversed? They would tell mom to butt out fast. The want want mom to stay forever in a time capsule, to be trotted out when they want something, with no care to how she feels when no one else is around.


Amen!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't have said it any better. She is going to make a choice one day, grow up and leave you. I'm not sure how counseling will help, but if you think it will, go for it!

Good luck and don't let those kids beat you down, ok

Do you think your daughter would give up a guy she was madly in love with because you didn't like him? And if she would, do you think it would be right? I have a feeling the answers would be "no" and "no". You aren't required to sacrafice your happiness for your children. They wouldn't sacrafice their happiness for yours. No one should have to sacrafice anything, because that's not love, it's manipulation. Get some counseling and tell her that while your door's always open, it works both ways.

that's not love, it's manipulation.

Or, blackmail.

Do you think your daughter would post her reasons here? She is welcome, and may get interesting responses.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

How do these kids profess to love a parent, when they would not tolerate the same situation if it were reversed? Ladies... Ladies... they do this because they are OUR children -- who, for the most part, are a product of their environment. Love them, nuture them, and then, when you think you can take no more -- kick them out (but, do it in a way that makes them think it was their great idea to move on!) ;)

I disagree with everyone else. This relationship doesn't sound very promising. I think the kids know their mother best, and there is something (or many things) they see in her ym that they don't trust. Men come and go, family is there forever.

My friend's mom has a saying, "A son is a son until he takes a wife; a daughter's a daughter for the rest of your life."

I'm 41 years old, and I still need my mother very much. She was there, in the hospital room when I had both of my children, she was there when I had an emergency appendectomy, she is there now as I've been diagnosed with a disease, she's been there in emergencies when I needed child care, when I got in a car accident and needed to be driven places for awhile, just multiple times. I can't imagine what I would have done if she chose a boyfriend over me, especially one that I was sure was going to hurt her in some way, and isn't that what you're children are afraid of here? It's not that they don't want you to be happy, it's that they fear what he'll do to you, and did anyone ever think their fears might be valid? The guy's 27 years younger, she's been with him since he was 18, hardly time to experience life, he's from a whole 'nother culture and religion that holds grudges, I mean, I see plenty of red flags here. He has barely made it into adulthood, and she is 49, entering her menopausal years, no chance of having kids together. Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but I don't believe giving false hope to folks.

Is he really worth giving up a relationship with your own kids? Not to me. There are billions of men on the planet. If one doesn't fit, try on another, until you find just the right fit. This guy may feel good to be with now, but as he gets older, his parents will interfere more, and from the four years I've been here, I've seen that guys from this culture almost always end up doing what the family wants them to do. :( So in the end, it's possible that you'll lose your family, and lose him too!

Polly,

I think you make some valid points about her YM's culture and possible issues, and HE is going to have to adjust to being in a different culture if he lives here in the U.S.

However, letting your children have the seal of approval on your life as a condition of a relationship with them is setting a dangerous precedent. Trust me.

My 27 year old left home at 18 to be with a guy, and never looked back. My 18 year old dates someone who doesn't like me at all, and won't step foot in my house, and she is very comfortable with that.

It's not love, it's manipulation on the part of her children. And she should straighten both her BF and her children out on how things are going to work in HER life.

Originally posted by Polly
Men come and go, family is there forever.

True Polly, but also... One can pick their friends - you don't get to pick your family.

My friend's mom has a saying, "A son is a son until he takes a wife; a daughter's a daughter for the rest of your life."

Also true Polly. But that does not place a requirement on the mom to live her life by her daughters fancies.

I'm 41 years old, and I still need my mother very much. She was there, in the hospital room when I had both of my children, she was there when I had an emergency appendectomy, she is there now as I've been diagnosed with a disease, she's been there in emergencies when I needed child care, when I got in a car accident and needed to be driven places for awhile, just multiple times. I can't imagine what I would have done if she chose a boyfriend over me, especially one that I was sure was going to hurt her in some way, and isn't that what you're children are afraid of here? It's not that they don't want you to be happy, it's that they fear what he'll do to you, and did anyone ever think their fears might be valid? operative words here are 'MIGHT BE',,, that's a great guarantee,,, ain't it??????

The guy's 27 years younger, she's been with him since he was 18, hardly time to experience life, he's from a whole 'nother culture and religion that holds grudges, I mean, I see plenty of red flags here. He has barely made it into adulthood, and she is 49, entering her menopausal years, no chance of having kids together. Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but I don't believe giving false hope to folks.

Is he really worth giving up a relationship with your own kids?
Now, just 'Who' is giving up [a] relationship? Geeeze, does this mean that if I meet some woman I will lose the relationship I have with my mom? Not by my choice.

Not to me. There are billions of men on the planet.
Ok. Just make sure he is one your child approves of.

If one doesn't fit, try on another, until you find just the right fit. This guy may feel good to be with now, but as he gets older, his parents will interfere more, and from the four years I've been here, I've seen that guys from this culture almost always end up doing what the family wants them to do. :( So in the end, it's possible that you'll lose your family, and lose him too!

You may very well be right Polly. Then again, you may as well be just as wrong. I see a lot of soothsayer here.

My mother married someone 10 years younger than her and me and my two sisters did not care for him at all. There were alot of problems intially with my younger sisters (I was 19 when she married him), but we eventually came to accept him. We still dont like him, so I emphasize accept. It really doesnt have to do with age, the guy is just wierd. But we accepted him because we acknowledge that our mother is a grown woman, has a right to make her own decisions and for whatever reason he makes her happy. She is my mother, I want her to be happy. Your daughter may resist your decision to be with him, but all you can do is let her know that you love her and will always welcome her in your life, that there is room enough for the two of them. My mom has been married to wierd guy for 14 years - we tolerate him:)

Interesting conversation here...

I think that often we should look to our families (childern, parents, siblings, etc) for an honest opinion of our partners. We often look at partners through "rose-colored" glasses and its often those closest to us that see all those red-flags I'm always reading about here. They often can see them before we are willing to. However, that being said...I do not believe that we should empower anyone (our children, our parents, our siblings, etc) to decide what is best for us. Or at least I do not believe that functioning adults should do that.

It is one thing to listen to the opinions of those we trust, its always your own decision as to how to act on those opinions. I believe there are exceptions to this though and Polly sort of alluded to them in my opinion. If you have minor children, then I believe that deference is owed to them. If they are uncomfortable, then a potential partner should not be forced upon them. I don't think. Plenty of time to do whatever you want when your minor children are not around or when they leave home. They certainly grow up fast enough !! I also agree that I would never put a partner before my children. In my mind, this is NOT even a possibility. A man dating me...knows this like...IMMEDIATELY. Kids first...man, god, and country...well lets just say...further down the list ;).

However, I believe that the OP said her daughter was not a minor. I think that if in her opinion her partner is reasonable and she has examined the red flags that her those she trusts have pointed out and deemed them invalid. In other words, she considered the opinions of those she trusts (including her children) and made her own decision ultimately...then its time to attempt to reason with her children in counseling.

She is owed the same understanding and respect that her children expect from her.

:( Well, I agree some responses I got, and disagree with others. Like I said, I feel very torn. Yes there are lots of men on this earth, I totally agree. But this one I have got, he has my heart. My kids, naturally have my heart too. Someone asked if my b/f gave me a ring, and yes he did. He wants to finish his studies, and get married.
I think perhaps counselling would be a good idea. If all parties agree to go of course.
I just wish that everyone would want happiness for everyone else. To live and let live.
As for having children, that has been discussed and not an issue with us.
My kids fears....well if they had of given him a chance, got to know him, then didn't like him, ok. I feel everyone deserves at least a chance. Don't judge because of culture and religion.
I guess I just have to leave it with the Man upstairs, and see what He has mapped out for me?

Have tried to date people my kids couldn't stand, and frankly, dating someone your family hates, won't work...not for them, not for you...usually kids see things you don't see...mine saw with my ex bf of MD that he was only interested in a free hand out and a place to crash and free meals...I waited too long to dump him back in 2000, and lived to regret it...he had a violent streak my kids had noticed that eventually came out...maybe your daughter sees something you don't see...just a thought...Hadely

I wanted to add to what I said earlier, that I too, don't believe children should run your life or choose your partners, I really don't, and if Virgo's ym seemed like an ideal guy otherwise, I would have advised counseling for the kids. If the guy had a good job, was generally good with kids, was older when she met him (thus having had some life experience), was flexible enough in his culture to accept other's behaviors and not hold grudges, and was financially independent, then I would say, "By all means, stay with him, try to make it work, and go to counseling."

Even though her daughter is 18 and therefore no longer a minor, she's still just a kid! Weren't YOU ALL at 18? Don't you remember what that was like? I will still be there for my kids when they're 18 (son is almost 15 now). I'll encourage growth and independence, but I'm not going to show them the door and say, "You're on your own, I'm done being a mom." They'll be in college, which in my opinion, is a transitional stage...not a child but not yet an adult. That's where I see the daughter being now.

I could be wrong (it's certainly happened many times before), but what I see is a man who stands more to gain than Virgo does. I don't know the whole situation, but if she met him at 18, he might have needed her in some way, either financially or otherwise, to help him stay in this country and go to school. Virgo has said his parents know about her, but hasn't said how they feel about it. Do they know exactly how old she is? I have a hard time believing they'd be okay with it. In that part of the world, marriages are frequently arranged. Even if he doesn't have a partner chosen for him, he met Virgo at 18. He was still pretty much a kid, going to school. What's going to happen when he graduates, gets a job, finally starts to make some good money, and gets to experience life? Another thing...is his residency established in the U.S., or will he have to do something drastic to stay here, like get married?

My question to Virgo is: Why would you want to be in a relationship where you most likely won't be accepted by his family, and he isn't accepted by yours? He might have your heart, but sometimes we have to think with our heads. I've had to let go of two men who had my heart, because the situation wasn't right for me to be with them. I hated to do it, but it was the right thing to do. I finally met the man I'm sure God intended me to be with all along and he fit like a glove, into my family, and I into his. It wasn't only that though. He fit in all ways...culturally, religiously, financially, mentally, he was right for me in every way. Life's too short to be with someone who's not.

Originally posted by Polly
...Even though her daughter is 18 and therefore no longer a minor, she's still just a kid!
Weren't YOU ALL at 18? ...
Nope! Not me :D
and to actually quote my parents/sisters, I apparently never even was a "kid" at any time to start with :p (ok, probably excluding my toddler years ;) )

Sorry, had to answer this "rhethorical" question ;) Generalisations are just that ... - non-specific ;)

(note: Now, if you had asked if that would not apply to many 18 yrs in the Western world, I might actually have agreed ;) - but I also know that you actually CAN be pretty adult at that age, but that kinda depends if you have to or not - to take a reverse example, one of nieces is 26, still living at home and has never ever had one independent thought in her life and acts like a baby (well, actually more like a 14 yr old at best ;) - it really depends on the circumstances)

Like Carazy, I was grown up at an early age, like 16.

I graduated from HS at 17, went to college and got married at 19. Didn't have children until my mid 20's.

I asked my mom recently if my impression of myself being grown up at 16 was accurate; and she said, if you had the means to live on your own at 16 you would have been just fine. Yes, you were grown up.

My experience has been that teenagers are pretty well formed by 16-17, and your job as a parent is to fine tune and help them get ready for independent living whether it be college, the workforce or that military when they are 17 and 18 and still in high school. I think some parents extend adolescene way too long, into the late teens and early 20's and it's a great disservice to their children.

If you are 18 and in college people call you a college kid. But if you are 18 and in the military you are a man or woman or you best be.

We really send young adults mixed messages, don't we!

18 is a legal adult. To insinuate any different is insulting to most people...

A reminder...if you dated your man at 20...then some folks think that is a kid...(not 21 yet ;)). So mind your own huge glass mansion, prior to throwing stones at anothers glass shack.

Hmmm... attaining 18 yrs. is a LEGAL consideration only. It has no regard for emotional/physical development.

Anecdotally, some people are drunk on one beer, others it takes a case. But the law, in most states now, is something like .08 or .10 for LEGAL intoxication (blood level alcohol).

18 may be legal, but that is not the mark of an adult.

My feeling is that there is NO "mark" of adulthood. Some people are adults at 16, some are not at 40 !! Since there is no "mark" of adulthood it seems reasonable to assume a legal definition of adulthood when speaking in generalities. Meaning...when looking for a standard...it is reasonable to look to the legal definition. 18 is the legal age of majority. 21 is the legal drinking age and therefore another legal standard for majority.

Marcy, Robin was two months away from turning 21 when I met him, and I was 36. He had a full-time job, paid rent, paid his bills, had a THREE-YEAR-OLD SON who he had almost all the time, because even though the mother was the custodial parent, she was never around and didn't really want to be a mother. Being responsible for another person unconditionally tends to make one grow up. Also, he had been on his own for quite some time. He didn't stand to gain anything by being with me. I don't know what you meant by your "glass houses" remark, but surely it doesn't pertain to me. If Robin hadn't been all of those things and a father, I wouldn't even have considered dating him. There's no way I could have expected him to be able to deal with kids and family life otherwise.

I don't know why people here insist that teenagers are adults. I had my first apartment at 18, but I wasn't an adult by any means. Some of you say that you were. Okay, so did the decisions you made at 18 affect your life positively or negatively? Did you leave home out of want or need, because make no mistake, there is a difference.

Maybe I parent differently than you guys do. Maybe the way I perceive late teens is different, but it's based on my own personal experience. Sure, I knew kids in high school who seemed very grown-up, very adult, but they were sad too. They either had alcoholic parents who didn't care for them, or dead parents and were living with a relative who didn't care for them, or they became pregnant and decided to try to live an adult life and become a parent. Robin was definitely one of those people, and I grieve for him, the fact that he couldn't have a carefree childhood and become an adult only when he felt ready. He was already "a done deal" by the time I met him, so I knew he wouldn't suffer any "lost youth" being with me. In fact, it was me who brought the sunshine back into his life. Now he goes out with his friends, goes out with me, we all socialize together, we see more of his family, his life is happier.

One more thing: It takes a very special man to be a stepfather. Robin was up for the challenge, and it HAS been a challenge. Never once did he say, "I don't want to do this anymore. I want to move out. I can't take your kids." My kids did plenty to him, but he was adult enough to recognize that they are just kids, and that's what kids do. A man who isn't mature enough to handle the actions of kids shouldn't be put in a position to be their stepfather.

Originally posted by Polly
A man who isn't mature enough to handle the actions of kids shouldn't be put in a position to be their stepfather.

Or even date their mother! Perfectly said. Pay attention to the way a guy acts around your kids. If it seems "off" or uncomfortable, or forced, it probably is and he's too young for you!

Sail

To answer the original question. I wouldn't date anyone who my kids couldn't accept. But they are young, if they were out of the house and grown, I'd do what I wanted. I haven't just "lived my life and done what I wanted to do" since the day my oldest was born. I think you give a little bit of that freedom and self-indulgence up when you have kids. But that's just my opinion and I'm sure it isn't the popular one.

Sail

Kathy, you and I have talked before, here and outside of here. Part of the problem with your youngest may be the times that you left her while you went to live by, and or stay with Zaib. She probably resents how much of you she missed so you could be with him.
I know you thought she was being taken care of, but she wasn't with YOU. Staying with friends for a month or so, isn't the same thing as having your mom there. Now she's older, she isn't so worried anymore about needing you, so she's feeling freer about giving you her opinion. She always told you she didn't mind, but obviously, by this reaction now, she did.
The problem with you and Zaib isn't the fact that he was so young, as much as it was that you had to go to such elaborate lengths to hide it from his parents for so long, and honestly, you were pretty obsessed with him the first couple of years.
She's probably also blaming him for your divorce, which, as I recall, didn't happen till after you had been together for a while.
She is 18, but she's still young, and still trying to have her mom.
I really recommend counselling for all of you.
She has lots to work through, and so do you, sometimes having an emotionally uninvolved person help you talk things through is what it takes to let both sides out.
She's the last one of your kids to be with you, please don't let her slip by without really examining your heart.
Last time I talked to you was just over a year ago, he was going to move in with you in a couple of months and you were planning to get married this summer. I think there's a lot more going on than what you have shared.
Thing is, I worry for you daughter, the rest of your kids, and really a lot for you, and I urge you to get help for all your sakes.
I'd hate for you to wind up regretting what I fear you will.

I guess the "true" measure of adulthood is whom YOU determine to be an adult, eh?

However, so as to not stray from the actual truth (whether you perceive it that way or not is really moot)...

The dictionary defines an adult this way:

One who has attained maturity or legal age.

18 (despite insistance here to the contrary) is actually legal age, therefore in actuality, you are wrong. There really is not a debate as to what consititues a legal adult.

Your feelings about what consititues a "moral" adult is completely subjective and designed to make it appear that you are morally superior to others. I have no doubt in my mind that if Robin had been 19, you would be saying 19 was an adult, or you would be saying that he was exceptional (as of course you do already).

Lets face facts tho...we all think our situations are exceptional and they are... to ourselves. However, I do not find anything particularly exceptional about your situation at all. I find the difference between an 18 and 20 or 21 year old for the most part to be not terribly significant and furthermore...the fact that Robin had a clearly troubled late teens life does not, IMHO, make him exceptional. Now if he had graduated university at age 17...

and just to add a bit with regard to what I consider a teeny-weeny bias on American (as opposed to other cultural) values, I got to say that especially this drinking age difference or the "coming-of-age" at 18 vs 21 isn't all that general applicable, even though it seems a big issue in the States.

Taking Germany as an example, it is not uncommon here for youths under 18 to buy/drink alcohol (same in Norway, I just hear) - even though you only get the "hard" stuff from 18 onwards and have to - theoretically - provide some form of ID; from what I gathered, this is not too heavily enforced though.

So, 18 really means cut-off point here for sure, no ambiguity.

This said, obviously not every 18-yr old is a mature, responsible person, but the same applies to people older than that too.

Yes, I do agree that young adults are more vulnerable than older, more experienced people, but again, this always depends on degree, situation and personality, so, some average observations might be justified, blank generalizations imo are not ;) Bottomline for me, consenting adult have to decide what they are comfortable with and what not ... ;)

But I guess this issue has been discussed to death really, so no need to continue to beat a dead horse, which is why I will leave it at this now (at least for a few weeks :p )

Hi everybody and thanks for all your advice and views. My problem isn't whether my daughter being 18 is an adult, whether she is mature or not muture. If she did move out, it wouldn't be on her own anyways, it would be with her Dad. So that is not a concern. It is the old heart strings that are being tugged on. Like every Mother, we all have to let go at one point or another, but surely would prefer it to be on good terms. And of course, I would prefer if she and my b/f could mend their disagreements, and possibly become friends, as they would never become Step Dad and step daughter for sure. B/f said that she is my daughter, and that I should be the parent, that she would be my concern. I would just like it if we could live in harmony most of the time. I still think counselling would help us all alot, as each one could maybe be made to understand the difference between love for a child, and love for a mate. That my daughter is important to me because she is my daughter, and my b/f is important to me as my mate.

Virgo...

Truly it seems that counseling is a good idea for all concerned. Is your daughter going to college? I have a 17 year old and we are preparing for her to go away to school in the fall. It is a difficult, yet exciting and proud, time for us. As my father said to me this weekend, it is the natural progression of things for children to leave your home.

I agree it is...I am looking forward to Sarah's first steps as an independent person as she prepares to leave my home. When the progression from your home is mired by unhappiness and discontent, then I think its likely a more greivous and painful experience.

I just wanted to say that I saw the photo of you and your guy. You look great together! I hope everything works out for you.

You all know how I hate when that age issue comes up, because I met J when he was 18.

And while I understand what Polly said and what she is thinking...I do have to say this. Robin was an exceptional man, and he was 3 months away from 21, right? If you had met him a year sooner, Polly, at 3 months away from 20, don't you think he still would have been an exceptional man?

My point being, there are always exceptions.....not everyone is the same. Agreed, most y/m at 18 are not mature, but there are always going to be some that are. I, too, have 3 children and a ailing father living with me, and my life was a mess when I met J. It would have taken an exceptional man to be with me at all, no matter his age. We have had our problems, no doubt. But I think we would have had the same problems regardless of his age. I do think that a relationship starting with someone that young is more difficult sometimes, but thats not to say it won't ever work. It does, and we have seen it here.

*hugs* Everyone....Let's just respect the fact that we may not all agree here, but it is the diversity of opinions that makes this place interesting....

Just a thought... *smiles*

So I have a question... just from reading the above posts and posts from other threads, would it be fair to say that there is a definite division of camps perhaps because we have those who have dated 18-21's (male or female) and those who would NEVER do it and are offended by it?

I would say there is a division here. I completely support differing opinions of maturity and personal choices... i.e. "I would never date a 19 yo" "I do not think 18 yo's are mature". I draw the line myself when one posts that 18 is not an adult. Clearly the term adult is a legal one and there is a law that says 18 is an adult. The tiny distinction between an 18, 19, and 20 year old is so subjective and clearly meant to provide moral superiority to one person over another. Trust me...outside of this forum...a 37 yo with a 20 yo is disgusting to most people.

I was 19 with 2 babies and living on my own. Did that make me mature? NO WAY...just meant I had a sad and screwed up life.

I thought I should add, that my 22 year old boyfriend, is very mature for his age, and alot has to do with his culture and that he is the eldest son in the home. He is responsible for his own tuition for college, his car expenses, his clothing, etc. The only thing he doesn't pay for is food, but also puts in a few dollars a month to his Mother. He cooks, he cleans, looks after all household needs, repairs, what have you. He has already experienced living on his own, while away at University. I know that he has alot to learn as yet, as don't we all keep learning the rest of our lives?
My daughter, well I will tell the truth, she is the baby of the family, and yes she got spoiled. She also had a neurololgical imbalance in her brain from age 7 to about 16, so I tended to coddle her. ( I shouldn't have, I know that now) Now, she holds a full time job, and is paying for her clothing, and extras needs. I would say she is mature is some ways, immature in others, and has some growing to do.
Again, I will say, I believe counselling would help lead us all in the right direction, and am hoping for reconciliation between my daughter and b/f.
As for my other children, 29 yr.old, she just starting talking to me a few months ago, after 3 years had passed. She is out on her own, living with her b/f. My son, 26, owns his own home, and lives with his g/f. He hasn't spoken to me for nearly 4 years. My other son, who is 22, has stayed very neutral, comes to see me occasionally, and says it is my business how I have my life, although he did tell me he didn't agree with the age gap. So, there are others involved as well..... I love them all dearly....but I love my boyfriend of 4 years dearly too.
My b/f has gone against his culture and religion to be with me, and against his parents wishes. He says he loves me, and wants to marry me as soon as he is done his college. Yes, he put a ring on my finger. So, he has made a decision to leave his family....for me. He always says, " There is no birth certifcate required for love"

Marcy, I have to agree with you that 18 is the legal age of adulthood. It's funny though, our culture only supports it as far as being able to "get something" out of a person at 18. For instance, cigarette companies, the military, loan companies and credit card companies will treat an 18 like an adult, but the rest of society doesn't. The above-mentioned have something to gain. The rest of us don't. Some 18-year-olds are still in high school. To me, sleeping with someone in high school, who has never held a full-time job or lived outside the home, is just plain creepy! The only women I could see even wanting that, would be women who were so severly abused that only a boy would not appear as a threat to them. BTW, if you're referring to Smiwi graduating from a "University" at 17, wasn't that in Europe, and wasn't it actually the equivalent of a junior college, or HIGH SCHOOL as we have in the states, that goes through 12th grade, instead of 10th as it does in Europe?

Robin is an exception because he was a father and was living the same lifestyle I was. He was a single parent, he held a full-time job, he paid his bills, he paid his son's daycare, he didn't party on worknights, he was planning his future, which included buying a house on a few acres, owning his own business, and certain places he wanted to travel. His goals were the same as mine, his dreams were the same as mine, his lifestyle was the same as mine, his values and morals were the same as mine. THAT'S exceptional, actually, for a man of ANY age. And two months' shy of 21, Robin was already very much a man. Very unusual. I would not have even looked at him were he not about to turn 21, or not been a single father.

Now, that's just me. It doesn't mean that no one else on this site has the right to date younger. It means I've been here 4 years, and I've seen what happens to women who date men 18-20, no experience with kids, no experience with life, never been away from home, basically using the ow for shelter, food, emotional support and sex. Ninety-nine percent of the time, the ym leaves and the ow is brokenhearted, sometimes even suicidal. I've seen it again and again! THAT'S why I warn as I do. THAT'S why I generalize as I do. I'm not just talking out of my a$$. And listen, I'm GLAD when I'm wrong. I'm very happy for couples who beat the odds. Unfortunately, that's not too often. So all I'm saying to women is, "Beware. He may think he knows what he's saying, making a commitment to you, but nine times out of ten, he doesn't have a clue."

I agree with Polly that a guy who has never lived on his own being taken in by an OW might be a recipe for disaster, to some extent.

However: My ym is 20. He still lives with his parents. He's going to school and figuring out what he wants to do with his life. If he were 30, I would look down on him for still living with his parents. But when I was 20, I was living with my parents too. Of course, I had just finished living on my own for 2 years (when I was 18-19), but I don't think this little stint of mine really helped me much.

I think that I have certain standards to which any man I date must live up to, and that includes having an education. So that necessarily means that if I am going to date a 20 y/o, he needs to be in school. Soooo... to me, dating a ym most likely means dating a guy who lives with his parents, or is being supported by them. That doesn't bother me at all.

I honestly don't think living on your own makes you more mature. It teaches you fiscal responsibility, and 100 different ways to eat macaroni and cheese... all very handy, but it doesn't teach you to treat others with respect or anything. It doesn't give you better coping skills to deal with life's emotional ups and downs.

My ym knows that when he and I live together, he'll be paying 1/2 the bills. If that's not for another year or two, that's fine with me! I'm in no hurry. BTW, I never pay for anything when he and I go out. He has a pt job as a bartender.

Is he ready to live away from his parents' house yet? No. Am I ready to live with him yet? No. Simply because I am too recently divorced. So essentially, we are at the same stage in life -- he's just starting out, and I'm just starting over.

He's never lived on his own, and he's only had one full time job, which he quit to go back to school. I think that's okay.

I have to say I totally agree with you both! I myself came out of a divorce, and my x was 5 years older than me. So to me, age has no bearing on whether it will work or not.
My y/m is very responsible for himself. He does all for himself, including cooking and laundry, amongst other things, works part time, goes to college, and also goes to a co-op job. He pays his own way in all areas.
We had the opportunity to live together for 3 months, while he was away at college, and although that is only a short time, he showed me a mature man.
We have an open, honest, and trusting relationship, that has been through its fill of hard times as well as good. We agree to disagree when we can't come to an agreement, which works well. I treat him as the individual that he is, and he does the same for me. I have faults, and so does he. But the good outweighs the bad for us. Neither of us knows what the future holds for us, but we are both working towards the same things. To me, I am in a relationship with him, as his equal partner, and age has no bearing on whether it will work out or not. I learned alot throughout my marriage with my x, and know what does and doesn't work, and apply this new knowledge to the realtionship I am in now. So far, so good. 4 years later, still going strong! After the storms, we have always found a rainbow, with the sun shining down on us. :)

Thank you for flying the Ageless Love soapbox. Please enjoy your stay amung the little people, and again, thank you for flying with us.

BTW, if you're referring to Smiwi graduating from a "University" at 17, wasn't that in Europe, and wasn't it actually the equivalent of a junior college. . .

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I didn't know there was a problem with going to a Junior College. To me, its the cheapest way to get an A.S. Plus, last time I checked calculus in high school is the same as it is in Junior College and at MIT.

I agree, it would be nice to go into a bar or a club one night just to hang out. I "missed out" on an opportunity to go to a friends party the other day that was going to be held at this local little bar in the Mission. But, i really didn't want to go in the first place: Getting around a bunch of people who are probably going to get drunk off their *** while I sit there and drink water isn't my idea of good times. Truth be told, being under 21 was actually my excuse for not going. I mean, how rude would it have been if I said "No, i don't want to go to your party" to a friend. . . Its much nicer to say "I would really go, honestly, but since i'm not 21 I can't". But thats just my way.

I probably can't speak for all the other younger men here, but I know that spending a weekend home with my woman is probably one of the most fulfilling things I could experiance. Nothin better then watchin an episode of Star Trek on DVD with my woman sittin next to me while we watch TV.

Sure, going out to the movies and hangin' out with the guys would be nice. . .BUT there aren't any guys to hang out with. My only real guy friend is in the Marines and is stationed 600 miles away. We don't go out often as you can tell. Most of the other guys that I associate with are computer-geek types who enjoy staying home and counting pixels on their screen.

The only women I could see even wanting that, would be women who were so severly abused that only a boy would not appear as a threat to them.

Does that count for my woman, too?

Some 18-year-olds are still in high school

Some are millionaires who wipe their *** with rolls of $100.


I should start a poll. Just to see how many of the people who have been out and living on their own for several years that can say that their parents leave them alone. I know my grandma is forever in my dad's business. And, hell, he's got 5 houses in the Bay Area and been living away from home for 20 years.

You know, I've always looked up to my dad. He married my mom when he was 20 (if memory serves). He never live away from the house. He was raised by a my grandmother and late great-grandmother. Anyway, he went to City College (the same school I am going to) and met my mom. He was working part time at the Post Office (a job he still has 23 years later). He quit school and started working full time after he married my mom and she got pregnant with my brother. My parents were married 12 years until they divorced, but hey that happens. So, whats the moral of the story. Well, its a true life story to give us perverted folk hope that there is still a chance for a man to marry a woman at the age of 20 (my mom is 4 years older than he was), have a family, dedicate himself to that family, and not give a rats *** about partying on Sunday nights.

I know my dad pretty well. . .and I know for a fact that he didn't party at all when he was a kid. My grandma used to think he was gay at one point because he didn't have any interest in going out to meet girls and stuff (but shhhhhh don't tell him that). He would always rather stay home and read a book or something.

To my knowledge my dad has only had two significant others. One was my mom, and the other is his current girlfriend. Never had to go out shove his dip stick in every oil well that he could find. And one last thing, I know for a fact that if he had it all to do over again, that he would do it in a heart beat. He's fathered 2 children, and wouldn't want to alter any of that to change what has happened.

So, to all of us who may or may not be discouraged by what Polly is saying, be reminded that there is always an exception.

Steve

I wasn't referring to Smiwi.

/edit I am not that self-serving. I do NOT think of examples to prove my relationship is exceptional and show that everyone else's is bound for failure. I do not come up with theories that seek to prove my moral superiority. I do not call other women weak and severely abused because they are in legal agegap relationships.

I was merely saying that it is exceptional when a 17 yo graduates from a large University. I think its sad and pathetic when a 17 yo becomes/gets someone pregnant and therefore cuts their life choices IN HALF.

Funny ain't it? At almost 21 (same as Robin), I had a job, took care of my children, and was a functioning adult. However, rather than the paragon of responsibility and maturity that you have assigned to him, I was the POSTER CHILD for irresponsibility and immaturity in my family. I put immediate need gratification before my future. I got pregnant. I didn't graduate HS to go on to college immediately. I didn't choose an acceptable life long mate. I didn't give thought to how I was going to live long term.

I think you missed my point Polly. Robin ain't exceptional...he's exceptional to YOU. Everyone's circumstances are exceptional to themselves. No person is the arbitor of adulthood. Let us all remember that outside of this forum...many, if not most people, would judge ALL of our relationships harshly. It would seem only reasonable that within the forum...the agegap (or the LEGAL ages of the couple) would not be THE issue.

I am reminded of a poem which might be appropriate here...hopefully it reminds us to bind as a LARGER community remembering that there is always someone out there that is offended by us for some reason...real or imagined:

"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
~Martin Niemoller

Virgo, how can you say things are going well? Your ym is talking about NOT living with you, and perhaps giving the relationship a break, from what I understand from your initial posts. You're in a tug-of-war between your ym and your daughter and torn about what to do. Your relationship is still a secret from the parents. How can you say everything is fine?

Pinkcat, you're only 30 (a yw, relatively speaking) with no kids and plenty of time (childbearing years still aplenty). Your situation is promising. Your ym and you are still in the same generation, and basically the same stage of life, because even though he lives at home, he is working on his future, and working a job, paying for you when you go out.

Tall Guy, I know there are guys that aren't interested in going out at all or socializing. In your case, you indicated that it's because basically there's no one to socialize with? What would you want to do if you had five close buddies who called you up to go out? I'm not saying go out and get drunk, I'm saying go out to dinner, movies, concerts, coffee houses...whatever? Do you think you'd be a good stepfather to older children, and do you think you'd enjoy doing that 24/7? Do you think you could commit to your ow long-term, with the possibility of marriage? BTW, I ALWAYS think education is the best path! You'll NEVER hear me put down someone getting an education. Marcy stated that a 17-yr.-old graduating a University was exceptional. I simply was asking her if she was referring to Smiwi, because from what I understand, he still only had 12 years of education, the same as would be in the states, for a high school graduate. They might call their school something different after 10th grade. It's still the same thing.

You know, I'm coming from a place of the relationship being a long-term one with the possibility of marriage, which it seems, the majority of women here want. Those who don't, can just disregard my posts completely. Those who do, need to listen. Typically, a VYM with minimal responsibilities and no experience with kids, is not going to work out long-term with a late thirtes or forties ow with kids and a structured lifestyle. That's typcially. Yes, there are exceptions. If you can survive the ride, and you think your ym won't come away hurt by it, then by all means, take a chance. I stated why I didn't think it was a good idea, and that may seem negative to some people, but if I made someone really THINK about what they're doing and see it more clearly, then I achieved what I wanted to, which is prevent a failed relationship and hurtful situation, especially when kids are involved.

There continues to be some disagreement about whether or not discussion of relationships involving those in the 18 to 20 yr old age bracket should be allowed here at Ageless. I don’t know if putting this issue completely to rest is even possible, since for the foreseeable future we will have people on both sides of the question who are strong in their convictions. The facts though, are that:

1. State and national laws almost universally acknowledge people in this age group as having the right to enter into personal/romantic/sexual relationships with other consenting people who have also reached the age of 18. Such relationships will continue to exist legally then for as long as the law allows them to do so.

2. A significant percentage of those relationships will involve one party who is significantly older in years than the other.

3. Agelesslove.com exists as a support site for people involved in legal age-gap relationships, including those involving people in the 18 to 20 yr. old age group, without imposing moral judgments as to the “correctness” of those relationships. As such, those relationships may be freely discussed in its forums, so long as the site rules are obeyed. While it is certainly the right of any member who might be of the opinion that such relationships are unwise to put forth that opinion in accordance with the site rules, it is recommended that – in the interest of all Ageless members and guests – posts stating such opinions be restricted to threads where the central issue or question as stated by the OP involves the ages of those involved.

On a whole our relationship is going fine. We are not arguing and fighting, and threatening to break up. Yes we have those issues to look after, and no he isn't thinking of leaving the relationship, he was just putting off moving in here until my daughter moved out on her own. Yes I feel torn, what mother wouldn't feel that way? As for his parents, they know about me, and have yet to meet me. Their custom is to bring the intended home, when the wedding is planned soon. My b/f said he will deal with that, when the time comes. That will happen at the end of the year, when he has degree. I have agreed. He also said, if his parents don't give us their blessing, he will choose to marry me, and it is me he wants to spend the rest of his life with. He feels in time, they will come around, but if they don't, they don't.
I don't know of one relationship that doesn't have issues to deal with. We both want to work out any issues, and therefore sought advice here. Many thanks to all for your support and advice. Will keep you updated.

Thank you kindly, last1standing.
I'm thoroughly sick to death of the pompous moralizing and potshots.
Thing is, I remember lots of posts, from lots of people who are supposedly in perfect relationships, with issues I'd never put up with. Or more grammatically correctly, things that didn't meet my standards for what I would want in a relationship.
How many times does your above message need to be repeated before it sinks in, is the real question?
I'm glad to see marcy back posting, btw, methinks I finally met someone nearly as stubborn as me. :D

I love marcy

Hey everyone, I always agree to disagree! Imagine the world if we all liked the same things, and held the same opinions...kinda boring place it would be!

" A sign of true love is to love when it is the hardest, and to stay, when you feel like walking away "

"True love" isn't so much a dreamy feeling that you have as it is an enduring commitment to give sacrificially --even, or perhaps especially, when you don't feel like it. "

last1standing wrote:

"There continues to be some disagreement about whether or not discussion of relationships involving those in the 18 to 20 yr old age bracket should be allowed here at Ageless."

As far as I know, there is no issue here about not allowing discussion of relationships about 18-20-year-olds, last1standing. Somehow, you got the wrong idea. We treat people in those relationships just as we treat people in relationships involving other age groups. We discuss, support and advise. The other side of Ageless (OM/YM) has many members in the 18-20 age group. So, put your fears to rest and don't worry, the Ageless forums are open to discussion of relationships involving those in the 18- to 20-year old age bracket just as they are open to discussion of relationships involving those in my age bracket (55-65 and beyond).

P.S. I really enjoy your posts.

Marcy, I guess we posted at the same time. You seem to be twisting everything I say and misconstruing it completely.

Robin, as a matter of fact, IS exceptional. He is exceptional to anyone who knows him. In addition to the above statements about Robin, he is honest, sincere, caring, faithful, strong, courageous, intelligent, beautiful and the most loving person I've ever known. YOU might not have been exceptional Marcy, but make no mistake, Robin IS! He is an exceptional person because of who he is, not because of how young he is. Don't talk about someone you know nothing about.

You seem to be so disturbed by my posts, that your replies are full of defensive, insulting comments. If my reality doesn't fit yours, then why are you so disturbed by my comments? Because maybe they hold a grain of truth? You must think they do, to be so disturbed by them.

BTW, in the four and a half years I've been with Robin, not ONE person we've ever known has thought our relationship was "sick" or judged us harshly. Not one! All of those people exist outside of this forum.

When I first came to this place, four years ago, it was much smaller, only a few hundred members. The average ages of a ym/ow relationship were mid-twenties and early forties. The average age gap was 15 years. Practically ALL of the posters were in a serious, monogamous relationship. If anyone came here talking about an adult teen, they were strongly discouraged. There weren't many on-line daters, most of the relationships were localized. Things have changed a lot. I've stayed longer than I should have. When people start backing relationships that seem dysfunctional from the start, relationships I'll never advocate, it's time for me to leave. Anymore, it's turned into a 3-ring-circus. My advice falls on deaf ears, delusional minds, and has no merit.

You can say whatever you want to about me, but guess what? I'M THE ONE WHO GOES TO BED HAPPY WITH MY LOVE EVERY NIGHT! I'm the one who has a healthy, sane, functional relationship, complete with friends and family from both sides! I'm the one who found a way to make this thing work, and in doing so, imparted my ideas to others along the way. I see promising relationships, with Pinkcat, Desert Spring, Rosalynde, Peachy, Bear's Angel, Tiny Dancer, Whisper, Patricia, Moonshadow, and some others who you wouldn't know, they've been gone awhile. There are others who don't look promising at all, based on what I've read. It's my honest opinion. As I've said many times before, I hope I'm wrong! I hope everyone here finds happiness with the person they want to, and we all live happily ever after. If you don't, I won't say "I told you so."

Take care people. I'll do the same.

I just got around to reading the rest of the thread. I had a final today at 8 am, then I took my friend to an appointment she had, met another friend by fluke shortly thereafter. Then, as if I wasn't tired enough, I met up with my woman with the Orthopedic Surgeon. More news about her knee. Anyway, back to what I want say.

I wish I would've worded the last thread a little better, because I guess it did come accross like I didn't have much of a social circle. And even though this is for the most part true, it isn't the only reason why I don't go out. Hell, don't get me wrong, if some friends called me up and asked if I wanted to meet them for coffee or something, I would probably go. But I wouldn't want to meet up for coffee or go to a movie or go here and there every night. Thats what I have a girlfriend for. Why go out with your friends when you can go out with your lover? I hope you see my point.

As for making a commitment. . .

I've made one thus far. I am not saint and I am far from being without flaw. I've messed up here and there. We've had our bumpy times. But we've been together for 2 years. And for better or for worse, those 2 years have been the happiest of my life. I don't know how long we will be together. I will not sit here and say that I can see myself 20 years from now with her. I don't know how long I can see myself with her. She doesn't know how long she can see herself with me. But what we both know is that we're happy together and we'll be together until that changes. . .if it ever does.

What would you want to do if you had five close buddies who called you up to go out? I'm not saying go out and get drunk, I'm saying go out to dinner, movies, concerts, coffee houses...whatever?

I'd say that I think I want to spend some time with my woman, and if they really wanted me to come then she'd be coming along too if she wanted to. No reason why she couldn't come.

Do you think you'd be a good stepfather to older children, and do you think you'd enjoy doing that 24/7?

Well, I don't think her kids actually acknowledge me as a step-father. Or, for that matter I don't think they ever will. But, with all that aside, I know that I have already been doing that for the past long while. I shop for them, I drive them to their friends' houses, I take them to their doctors appointments, I give them money if they need it. . . you know being me doing me things with her kids. 24/7? I don't think so. But, who says that I'd need to. One is an adult and the other one is close to being an adult. I don't think they need someone, especially a step-parent, sitting there telling them what they should and shouldn't do. I think if they still require someone constantly reminding them of the things they need to do then they have a lot of growing up. Lets face it, when people come of age. . . parents (at least, in my opinion) should take a back seat to the kids life and let them live it how they want.

My dad tells me that I'm an adult. That I may do things that he wouldn't approve of, but they are my "mistakes". I guess after becoming an adult I deserve that much.

____________________


Stan, thank you for your post. I honestly hope that people aren't PM'ing you and the other moderators suggesting that people in relationships with people in their late teens/early 20's be denied membership to the site. That would truely disapoint me.

Anyway, i think i've said enough for this post. If there is any thing anyone would like to ask of me, by all means do so.

Steve

Can I say STFU about 18 year olds?

I would not EVER consider dating an 18 year old but then I'm 52. I did howeve consider dating a 33 year old. so... math here. 18 + 19 If a 37 year old wanted to date an 18 year old then LEAVE THEM THE HECK ALONE.

Originally posted by Polly
I'M THE ONE WHO GOES TO BED HAPPY WITH MY LOVE EVERY NIGHT!

You're not the only one Polly!! I'll second that!!

As to the original post, my daughter is much older than the OP's and is married and on her own. Our situation is much different in that my daughter doesn't have anything at all against Joe personally. She has issues with me and changes I have made in my life since my divorce. And she does have some problems with the age gap thing, but has stated she would back off that one.

I would not let any child of mine or any other family member influence me at all with whom I chose for a mate. Whether they approve or like the person is of no consequence at all to me because I am the one who would be spending my life with him. And my feelings about my children or family are that if they really cared about me, they would want me to be happy, and if this man made me happy, then that's all that should matter.

After reading this thread, I feel there are many more issues involved here than just her children.

And amen!
I think the biggest problem with Polly with me personally, and believe me, I seem to trigger it off big time with her, is that we haven't proven her right. Somehow, my "creepy" relationship is still working, and working well. Seems to be an irritant.
Even now that David is well over 20, it still bothers her. Oh well.
Last night we cleaned house together and decorated for the kids coming for our Christmas celebration today. He took Carley shopping earlier, and gave her money to buy my gift from her. He'll get up at six, and go to his other job, taking care of a young male quad in his home, come home at noon for our family get-together.
Yeah, it's a real creepy, three-ring circus kind of life, and I'm loving it.
Back to the OP, who's thread was so sadly hijacked.
You can't take a 14 year old girl, leave her behind for days, weeks, months, while you go off and spend time with a lover, no matter the age, without a lot of resentment, not only from her, but from her siblings. It'll come back and bite you. Children need to know that they are important to their parents, and teen girls need their moms. She didn't have you, he did. And now you're feeling the result of the choices you made four years ago. Life is like that, you make the choice, you take what results, for the most part. I tried to tell you that way back, and your response was, but I want him, he makes me happy. Well, if you wind up with him, and not your kids, then, your choice. If you still have your original icq account, pull up your archive for francesk. You were thinking only of Zaib, and what he wanted.
I love David terribly, but if it was a choice between him, and my daughter who lives with me, no choice whatsoever. He's had to work to learn to parent, and its not easy to parent someone else's kid, no matter what. She sees her dad about once a month on average, usually only for a couple of hours, and sometimes David has to bear the brunt of her resentment about it. He pulls up step-parenting sites, does his darndest to learn, and she responds to that. My older kids, they see that, and respond to him well because of that. Their baby sister is as important to them as their mom, and they'll be good to someone who's good to us.
Zaib hasn't been able to make the same effort with your kids, maybe culturally he doesn't see that. But as the outside element, he needs to, and as the mother, sometimes you have to make some choices you may not always like.
If he can't accept your kids, warts and all, how's he going to accept you, if something bad happens. I wouldn't trust ANY man who couldn't take the whole package.
Yeah, some days I'd like to tear my hair out with the two of them, sometimes I fantasize about the two of us on a desert island all alone, sometimes I fantasize about ME all alone too. But when I kiss those fat cheeks goodnight, and she tells me I love you, I also know that the few brief years I have with her are worth more than anything else in the world.
Try to make peace with your children. When you're old and laying in some hospital bed someday, they're who you're going to want by your side, I have seen enough in my life to know that. My mom died at 52, and her biggest heartbreak was that my sister wasn't speaking to her. Its now my sister's biggest heartbreak, that she let her temper (it was really my dad she was mad at, but she took it out on mom) waste those last few months. Life is too short to waste.

I'M THE ONE WHO GOES TO BED HAPPY WITH MY LOVE EVERY NIGHT!

I seem to have been going to bed with my love for almost every night these past few months. But, I must confess, I did spend 5 days away from her because I was on vacation with my family. And then she spent 4 away from me because she went to New York. Other than that, we've spent every night with each other since way back in September.

I'll post more later

every night (well mostly ;)) ... whether or not that is with my partner is my own business! IMHO the true measure of a person is the happiness to which they go to sleep with themselves each night !!

I am 35...my partner is 18. We have a 17 year age gap...

to my math...thats likely pretty darn close to Polly's. I guess I was just lucky enough to meet my exceptional ym sooner rather than later...lucky us...in the end...we'll just have known each other longer :D

I just wanted to say, Zaib doesn't have a problem with my children at all, he wanted to and still wants to meet with them and get to know him and become friends. Not Step Dad, friends, as my kids range in age from 22-29 not counting the 18 yr.old. Yes him and the 18 yr.old have some issues that need ironing out, and no, I would not kick her out for the sake of him moving in, he knows clearly that if wants to move in, he has to make amends with her, and live with her as amicably as possible. I agree leaving her for that time, mind you with an adult, made her and my other kids resentfull. I made a mistake, and realize that. I admit all I was thinking of was being with my b/f. I had only recently come out of a bad marriage, where I was always the last to be thought of, so I went too much the other way. I'm human, and made an error and wasn't thinking all that clearly.
As for making peace with the others...well there is only one left I have to do that with...and it looks like Christmas is going to be the time. I am very ashamed to say this, for all to read, but his reason is because of the culture of my b/f. He has pre-conceived ideas about their race, like alot in our society, which sadly is just not true at all. " One bad apple does NOT spoil the whole bunch" None of my kids would even give my b/f the time of day, let alone meet with him, and get to know him at the beginning. I don't believe anyone should be judged without getting to know them a bit. Everyone deserves a fair chance. So it is not that he does not accept my kids, they hadn't accepted him, without a reason. With him and my youngest, they are issues that have to be worked on, and am following the advice, and getting counselling. If in the end, it can't be worked out, then I will know it is time to let go, and move on, as hard as it will be, because I do agree with you Bella, my kids are #1, and there is no greater love on this earth, than a mothers love for her children.

Did I, like, miss something while I was away???

First, Swanny, you cannot be 52, you don't look a day over 30!!!

And, um, bring me up to speed here people, since when is Polly public enemy number one? Did I miss something?

Lost_Spoiled, I totally agree with your post - I was considering posting too, but I didn't want to take the thread further off and then I read your post :D

And I think you are right, we are not talking underage age gap at all in most cases, it just tends to come up occasionally ... this seems some fallout from the time when Bella met her guy when he was not fully of-age then (which to me is 18, not 21, but that's a cultural difference between Europe and some US states, if not all).

And I also wonder about the hostility, disrespect and put downs ;) As you said, let's look at the individual cases and don't go overboard on generalisations, name calling (or related innuendo) etc ;)

And to Virgolady, I too apologize for keeping your thread off track :(

I know you are in a difficult situation right now; all I could add to that is that the dynamics indeed seem very twisted and that counselling might be the one way to get them "untwisted" and work to the underlying issues for all people involved ...
Best of luck to you, and I hope you can work out a solution with your kids and for your own happiness :D

DEVON IS NOT IN HIGHSCHOOL. I am not sure how many times I have to say that...He is not in highschool. He is 18, but he's turning 19...not that this matters a flying ***k really, but I'm saying

HE IS NOT IN HIGHSCHOOL !!

Most relationships (agegap or not) do not last. I never enter anything with the idea that it will fail. Devon and I have not known each other a few weeks. We have been together for over eight months now. He is here with me now on a 4 month visit. Polly's relationship has lasted for 4 years? BFD...my last marriage lasted for 9 years. Success is defined by those in it. I assume that we will be happy and successful and if we are not...then it wasn't meant to be.

I will not allow negativity from complete strangers to influence me...I could care less what Polly and Julianne think. They are not the arbitors of adulthood or happiness.

Julianne wrote:

I'm in a really great place in my life right now, so I'm no
longer in need of this site.

I, too, am in a really great place in my life right now! I am happily married to an incredible man and am happier than I've ever been in my entire life. I lack for nothing. I am not in *need* of this site; I enjoy coming to this site and really like many of the people here.

I'm not taking sides here..... But, I just don't understand two things.

1. Why do some people feel they must leave ageless just because someone has a different opinion than their own?

and

2. Why do some people become so defensive just because someone has a different opinion than theirs?

I am not just talking about those who have chosen to leave. This works both ways, in my honest opinion, after reading this thread and others like it. I agree that no one should be verbally attacked for their beliefs, however, people should also be able to feel free to express their personal opinions as well, without feeling they are in turn being attacked.

For BOTH sides of any discussion, it's all about the approach that is used.

Originally posted by whiterose
I'm not taking sides here..... But, I just don't understand two things.

1. Why do some people feel they must leave ageless just because someone has a different opinion than their own?

and

2. Why do some people become so defensive just because someone has a different opinion than theirs?

I am not just talking about those who have chosen to leave. This works both ways, in my honest opinion, after reading this thread and others like it. I agree that no one should be verbally attacked for their beliefs, however, people should also be able to feel free to express their personal opinions as well, without feeling they are in turn being attacked.

For BOTH sides of any discussion, it's all about the approach that is used.

Yep, my feelings too. :) I think you have put my feelings into words before Whiterose! Thanks!

Originally posted by Rosalynde


Sure, there are other things about relationships that might not be so hands-off, like extramarital affairs, etc., but age gaps and age related issues should be supported here if they are legal simply because this is a site devoted to support of same.

If you went to a board that "supported" those people choosing to have affairs, could you imagine if someone posted moralizing against such things on a site like that? (not that I'm in favor of such things, just using as an example.)

Sandie

Ok, so if I went to a board that "supported" people choosing to have an affair and I was having one while my spouse was in cancer treatment say...and someone posted that while they too were having an affair, they found it reprehensible that anyone could have an affair whilst their spouse was dying of cancer. Well, that is their right. They have their "lines" they draw as I was speaking of earlier. Now, I would certainly see the hypocrisy in that...but everyone has their "lines" and as long as they don't say things like "YOU STUPID WITCH...YOU SHOULD BURN IN HELL" etc...flaming posts..but if they said "Wow! I can not believe you would have an affair when your husband is dying. I think that is lower than low." Well...can't they say that? Can't you just ignore them?

As I said, I am not taking sides. I agree that this is a support forum for those in age-gap relationships (like me). However, unless something has been deleted, when I read Polly's posts, I did not read anything in her posts that said that she is opposed to the age-gap relationships between OW and men who are in the 18-20 year age bracket. What I read in her messages was that she was concerned that a man or woman in that age group may not have had enough of life's experiences to be able to sustain a long-term commitment. Maybe she actually said something else, but that's what I heard her say.

I mean come on... I have a 19 year old son. I know that he is mature enough to make some decisions about himself. But, is he mature enough to have a long-term relationship with a woman of ANY age? No way. But, that's just him. Some guys at his age are ready. That's the point I saw Polly trying to make. Each guy is different and it completely depends upon the individual. I didn't see that she was bashing anyone for their own choices, but was instead offering her opinion.

And, in my opinion, if you are going to ask for support on this site, sometimes you have to be ready to hear everyone's opinions, whether you agree with them or not.

Again, I'm not taking sides. I am able to see both sides of this conversation. It's just that I could no longer sit here and not say anything at all because I am seeing that both sides of the debate have become very defensive. That's all I'm saying. And those who know me know that I rarely ever speak up like this. But, it's just an observation that I could no longer contain to myself.

It's been deleted.
Several times in fact.

Originally posted by Tru
Can't you just ignore them?

My point exactly, Tru.

Gosh, what has my original post done? I didn't mean it to cause any trouble at all, just wanted some input, advice, support, ideas... :( Thanks to all who answered my post, and thanks for the ideas and support. Will keep you updated.

Marcy, I have to agree with you that 18 is the legal age of adulthood. It's funny though, our culture only supports it as far as being able to "get something" out of a person at 18. For instance, cigarette companies, the military, loan companies and credit card companies will treat an 18 like an adult, but the rest of society doesn't. The above-mentioned have something to gain. The rest of us don't. Some 18-year-olds are still in high school. To me, sleeping with someone in high school, who has never held a full-time job or lived outside the home, is just plain creepy! The only women I could see even wanting that, would be women who were so severly abused that only a boy would not appear as a threat to them.

Maybe you missed this one ... earlier in this thread then...

I know you can't know this...but the attacks on those of us in legal relationships have gone so far as to call us pedaphiles for being in legal, consenting relationships.

The above is more than an opinion of what a poster is comfortable with for themselves...it is insulting...and flaming.

Don't worry, virgolady. You are not to blame for the inflammatory responses to your post. It has happened to other innocent victims as well. Your situation is a valid one for the Ageless site and we will enjoy helping/observing you work through it, so please do keep us updated. Many others will benefit from the process you are going through to try to reconcile your conflict.

By the way, my boyfriend, Guinavere's fiance and Blondie's exes are from the same culture as your boyfriend's, so we can relate to you in that sense. Feel free to PM me if you like.

Gosh this post really flew out on a limb didn't it? Well I am responding to the issue of your relationship and the involvement of your daughter.

I am sorry to hear how difficult it has been for each of your children. It took a lot of reading to get to Bella's post about you leaving the kids. I am sad for all the suffering that your children felt when you were lost and confused and you left them.

I have some concern why you didn't mention that part of the story. It was brought up by Bella. And even had to be brought up twice before you responded in this long thread. And finally you did respond indicating you had made a mistake after your marriage ended but I didn't get a sense of your taking full responsibility for this error in moral judgement.

Have you sat down with your children and expressed to them that you feel you made a mistake in leaving them? Or was it the 14 year old daughter who was left? I am not remembering the full story. In your response you said that she was left with an adult. Like that made it ok??? No. You really, really need to sit down and have a heart to heart - wait - it's already been mentioned that you need to seek counseling. You did a major number on your family and the fallout is just starting.

Until your daughter is ready to move out; finishes high school, gets her job, enrolls in college, whatever her status is right now - I would not even consider moving my boyfriend in.

I'm not here to tell you whether your relationship will last or not. I'm just telling you to not consider moving your boyfriend in yet. I think there is still too much pain and resentment in your family.

For the rest of the post regarding when a person is mature and ready for a serious relationship - get real. There is no real age. It just happens. For me, I was about 35 before I got my head out of my butt. For Greg he was about 30.

I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine a guy being old enough at 16, 17, 18, or even 21 to know what the hell they want. But I'm not gonna judge any of you for choosing to stay in those relationships with guys that young. I think my mom and dad married at 18 and 20 years of age. They stayed married about 20 years. I dunno. But that was 49 years ago or so. Nowadays that just seems so incredibly young.

What was this thread about?

Cindy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cindy


I cannot, cannot, cannot imagine a guy being old enough at 16, 17, 18, or even 21 to know what the hell they want. But I'm not gonna judge any of you for choosing to stay in those relationships with guys that young. I think my mom and dad married at 18 and 20 years of age. They stayed married about 20 years. I dunno. But that was 49 years ago or so. Nowadays that just seems so incredibly young.

Cindy, my husband was 21 years old when he first professed his love for me and his intention to spend as many years as possible with me (as long as I live). He asked me to marry him and told me exactly what he wanted in his life. That was three years ago and he is happy with the choices that he made. These posts lately have started to stir up a little bit of doubt and fear in my mind. I know that normally I am very strong and secure in knowing what I want. I am not usually affected by what others think (otherwise I'd never have been able to be in a relationship with a man 26 years younger than I am), but I've noticed that the posts lately have affected me. Last night I asked my husband if he was really sure that he wanted to stay with me, knowing that one day I would be very old and maybe sick (compared to him). He looked at me and said, "I am absolutely positive. I am so happy with you. I have everything that I've ever wanted and cannot imagine being any happier than I am now. I also want you to know that I think you are absolutely gorgeous and I can't imagine being more attracted to any other female." I was doubting the fact that he could find me attractive, knowing that he mainly works together with young, attractive women five days a week. I went to his work today to buy some Christmas presents and was certain that he was probably going to eventually fall for one of the young, single woman working next to him. I was starting to doubt the fact that he could know what he is going to want 5, 10, 20 years from now. He asked me why I'm suddenly having these doubts - I wasn't like this before. As much as I don't like to let other's opinions influence me, I notice that seeds of doubt have been planted. If I can't feel that my "alternative relationship" is accepted here, at a support site for age-gap relationships, how can I feel alright anywhere else, without feeling like I'm some sort of freak? I have just become aware of how all this judgement here has affected my relationship, and if it can affect my relationship, which is normally rock-solid, then I can only begin to imagine how it could be affecting others, whose relationships are on shakier ground. I'm not saying that I condone or condemn anything....I think that all people are individuals and all situations are unique.....I just don't like the fact that I'm feeling a mistrust of my husband's ability to know what he really wanted at 21. Dang...I never think like this. Never.

Melodee, I think that's why David keeps telling me to take a break from here. I start feeling all that old freaky stuff again, that I honestly am over. He pats me on the head, and tells me to stay away from ageless. He says, when it goes back to being a help site, go back.
And I keep wondering if he's right, or if that means that it looks like I'm running away when I'm not.
And then I wonder if that means I'm spending too much time here again, that it matters. But I'm too fluish to do anything else right now too.
Maybe I need more Tylenol.

I hope that you'll be feeling better soon. I believe that zinc lozenges with echinecea (although a no-no for people with lupus or auto-immune disorders) and lots of vitamin C have helped me to get over the flu/colds very quickly for the past few years.

I know what you mean now about David warning you to stay away from this site, and I feel sad that Jeremy has been asking me what on earth is suddenly causing me to doubt his sincerity and his love for me. He asked me who I've been talking to. He's not used to me questioning his intentions or his love like this. I'm not blaming others.....I just am amazed at how the seeds of doubt have affected me this time.

Put your fears to rest, Whisper. You are a lovely, kind, feminine woman and your man is with you for those reasons. Men much older than Jeremy leave their women for many reasons other than just an age gap. It seems that lately some people here are forgetting that fact and most of those people are already victims of one or more broken relationships which, as a matter of fact, appear to have been with men older than 18 or 21. Cindy's relationship or my relationship could fall apart tomorrow. No one has a guarantee, ring on their finger or not. But you, because you are such a special person, have a better chance than most of us. So, give your guy a big hug and enjoy the loving relationship you two have built.

Whisper, Bella and others

Do not let the craziness that is going on here get to you. None of us should, the "silent majority" is supportive of all relationships between legal, consenting adults.

It's starting to really irritate me that the spouting off of freedom of speech has not been measured against the inherent responsibility of how these free words are received by the audience. Certain members of the forum are figuratively crying "fire"in a crowded theater. What about marginalized people who don't post here but lurk, and are feeling desperate, depressed, maybe even suicidal about age gap loves and losses. Are we contributing to their desparation and pain? And if we are, for what good reason?

You who have successful marriages and relationships with YM 18-21 (as I do) know the bond you both share at the deepest level. It's strong, sacred and true, regardless of what the image in the mirror, in your head, or the people on this forum may tell you.

Thank you, Patricia. My paranoia was getting to me! Sheesh. Thank you for the nice things you wrote. I was starting to feel like I was getting off-balance, somehow. I honestly don't usually ever feel like that! You made me come back to my senses, though, with what you posted! Do you know what? You're right. I remember when my ex used to look at me and comment about the lines in my neck (which hadn't been there before). I started to look in the mirror and think that I'd gotten old and hadn't noticed the fact before. Now, sometimes I wonder why Jeremy never says anything about wrinkles and stuff like that....I always wonder why he never seems to notice or to care. He just doesn't focus on it, I guess, and he doesn't even notice or care about it. I had more of a chance of my ex leaving me for a younger woman, I think, than I do of Jeremy leaving me for a younger woman. Jeremy always tells me that it would be silly to think that he'd ever leave me for a young woman, when I wasn't a young woman in the first place when he'd fallen in love with me. He says that he fell in love with my heart and that my heart or my spirit doesn't age. My mother (77 years old) warned me today not to focus on the age thing or I *would* drive him away, lol.

Thank you, again, Patricia. Your post gave me a lot of peace. Peace and not fear or doubt or division. Thank you.

Hey, don't forget me! We can't leave out the YM's perspective now can we :)

Steve

Well, at least I know i'm worth something around here. :D

Steve

It was very inspiring and uplifting to read what you all wrote in the last few posts.

It made me think about what someone recently posted. That person said something to the effect that she is now happy and doesn't *need* to be at this site any longer. I thought about how other people (like yourselves) are not here only because you *need* something or are "sick" and need "healing"......some of you are here to be a testimony to others, to help others, to support others, to lift others up or to just plain have a good time communicating with people who are in similar situations. That is really great. I don't think that support group is analogous to hospital for emotionally or mentally weak or sick people.

Whisper, Bella et al ;)

I think I can appreciate how you are feeling ;) .

Actually, Nordic has really got seriously angry over some of the posts of the previous days - especially concerning the blatant disrespect shown for vym and the generalizations about their attitudes and intentions. Actually, he's considering leaving Ageless for good, because of those stereotypical, generalizing prejudices; that those views might hold true to many does not make it better to automatically pre-judge every vym (or ow with them, for that matter) without knowing them more closely than anyone on an internet forum can.

I think Tall Guy posted some very good responses to that, and I totally agree that we who we are involved with vym should give both them and us some credit :D

A lot of people have made unfortunate choices in their life - irrespective of age gap. I think we should trust in the fact that even though we might have some too in the past (and hey, I am actually not even talking about myself here ;) ), we have grown enough and know who we are and can recognise a good thing when we see it.

When Nordic got mad, I told him that I do think he is giving some anonymous strangers way too much power over his feelings - personally, I might get heated up over a subject at one time or the other, and yes, stereotyping and prejudice do tick me off quite a bit ;) But at the end of the day, let them be happy with the life of their making and remember, that we are making our lifes the way WE want it to be ;) Maybe we should all try to remember it and not let this nastiness get to us ;)

In that sense, Merry Christmas to all of you :D

/hug
C.

Devon feels the same way. He left ageless due to the negativity and the harm he thinks it causes our relationship. He hates it that I still hang here. He thinks that it causes me to doubt him and our relationship.

I do get too involved with threads and I do have a tendancy to internalize the hurtful posts. I am not sure why its never the positive, supportive things...I guess the negative stuff is easier to believe and in some awful way feeds my own inner ambivalence.

I made a conscience decision to not post looking for my own support on this board again. I'll leave my own relationship questions to a safer community.

Your voices are strong, your voices are needed, and soon don't be surprised when there are many many more examples to prove the odds might not be as bad as originally thought. We won't know unless we stand up and if the relationship is healthy and both partners are open and honest... it will grow and they will talk!

Carazy, you are right as well. We can't let the nastiness get to us. And those of us who are in good strong relationships, need to just keep our voices strong like Lost_Spoiled said and exemplify good, supportive behavior, even when "feedback is required" to some of our other dear Ageless friends.

We didn't get to where we are today personally or professionally by being dying flowers on a vine. Our success and confidence as OW are part and parcel of what our YM love about us. We can't let others insecurities influence us. We have all come too far.

I wish you all a wonderful holiday season! I've learned so much from you STRONG women with 18-21 YM (you know who you are). Thank you for extending your wisdom and grace across cyberspace!

I just read Whisper's perception of my earlier post and I am terribly dismayed.

Please accept my apology for helping to create any insecurity in relationships that exist here. I am sickened and disheartened to think that I may have contributed to such pain.

I'm also extremely disappointed in myself for not seeing how far my simple words could have gone. I tried to generalize and speak for myself only. I always do try to be fairly careful about not attacking people or the way they live.

I work in social service and truly am a compassionate, understanding and very tolerant individual. I pride myself in seeing much of the whole picture in order to best serve my clients.

What a tremendous wake up call. A slap about the head, really!

I've missed the boat here. To me this topic was a philosophical topic and not geared to any one person. I was sharing my views generally and surely understanding that there are exceptions. But I failed to take into account how people would look inside of themselves or their relationships and begin to analyze the success or long term outcome possibilities.

Of course, I should have examined how this can easily happen. I have failed for years in my relationships because of insecurity and self doubt. It's only been because of my maturing process and loads of wonderful therapy that I have been enjoying my healthy relationship today.

I remember when I first came here absolutely in a tizzy about falling in love with a guy who was 31, 16 years younger than me. And we were casual sex partners. I was way over my head. I was flipped out. I came here and posted my confusion. Most people were wonderful, and Polly was one of them as was Bella, Toasy, Taffy etc. (I think they all posted). For the most part, they were kind and patient with me but there were several who really beat me up. I suffered so much self doubt and confusion at their hand. I was vulnerable to all the insecurities that plague these relationships.

I still am vulnerable. I still question whether after three years, if this relationship will last. I still question the wrinkles on my face, the aging of my body and the availabilty of younger, more lovely young women my boyfriend's age. Why did I not see the pain my words could cause someone else? Why, with all my own fears, could I not see how my words could have hurt someone?

I don't know how. Perhaps I was insensitive. No! I didn't mean to hurt any individual - it was a speech really, not meant for any one person. I was insensitive, wasn't I?

If I knew how to transfer this reply, I would prefer to start a new thread and allow others to evaluate how their words may have impacted others unknowingly. I would have liked to have opened myself up for everyone to know that I take responsibilty for my words and that I sincerely apologize for causing anyone to hurt.

I publicly apologize to Whisper and thank you very, very much for taking the time to bring to my attention how my words affected you. And I apologize to any other individual who felt hurt by anything I said.

Happy Holidays to you all.
Cindy

Thank you so very, very much for this incredible post. I know it was not directed to me...but it spoke to me bringing me peace and acknowledgement. God bless you.

Although the OP's issue is kind of lost (sorry to her!), I really like the way this thread is going.

THIS is the kind of sensitive support this site needs!

This is "relationship support", not "relationship judgement"!!

These last few posts have made me happy. :)


And I didn't really realize it until just now... but this stuff has been making me question things myself. I am insecure enough without getting more reason to be at my relationship support site!! ;)