Young, young YM adults? Yes or No??

Polly, I love ya, but just want to say: "Relax!"

It's okay for the ladies to choose 18 or 19
year old adults as a mate. Nothin' creepy about it
at all.

Today, I would say "Yes, it's unusual for a mature,
grown woman to be sleeping with a high school
student of 18 or older who has little life experience,
but SO WHAT?" America is the land of free choice; let
folks do their thing. Let freedom ring!

The odd thing about love and life is that it's so
inherently illogical. So often, "True love" has never
made sense to anybody but the people wrapped up
in it.

If, somewhere out there in Agelesslove-land, a
39-year-old OW named Betty is having satisfying
orgasms every night of the week with her 18-year-
old boyfriend who's captain of the school's
wrestling team.....well, more power to her!! This is
what adds joy, happiness and meaning to people's
lives. :p ;)

The relationship might fall apart in 3 years, but at
least at age 42, she'll look back fondly, flipping
through the photo album and think "Damn, that boy
could screw! Those were the three sweetest, hottest
years of my life!" :)

CONCERNS

Might Betty be heartbroken after "Junior" skips off, and
moves out to "find" himself? Yes!

Should we be concerned about that possibility? No, not
really.

Why not? Heartbreak is part of life. If it doesn't kill her,
it'll make her stronger. :)

At 42, she'll move on, hopefully a little smarter and better prepared for the next man in her life. Maybe next time
she'll upgrade to a 29-year-old college guy with a career
position who knows where he's going in life. And she can
come back to Agelesslove and post about him too! Life
goes on.

I say "Live and let live." :)

Just my $.02 worth.

Amen to all that, Harrison!

How many of us here dated a guy from our highschool. Same age, same race, same religion. Maybe he even got a job at your dad's car dealership. Married, had kids and lived MISERABLY ever after, well not ever after. Til you or he went their own sweet way.

I just had coffee with a charming slightly younger man. We had a great time and will see each other again. Thing is he has an 11 year old and a 13 year old. I have avoided dating anyone with children younger than my 15 year old because I am counting the days til I can buy my motor home and leave Michigan and tour the country.

If this guy and I fall madly in love (projecting here big time) then I would be tied down for SEVEN more years, or longer. But ... well if we fell madly in love we would have 3.5 years together and then either I would have to compromise my dream or stay and love him.

It's all a crap shoot.

Personally? I wouldn't date an 18 year old still in high school. For me that would be way too weird. I date an 18 year old who's almost half way through college and almost 19 so I guess I'm not totally weirded out by the concept.

Harrison,

Good post.

I stay out of the judgement business. I leave that to God. Age and wisdom have taught me that things are not always what they seem.

As long as each person in a relationship are of legal age, what they do is there business, as long as they aren't breaking the law. Years ago more than a few HS senior girls in my class were going out with men in their 20's maybe some close to 30...not much has changed today. Many 18 year old women are dating guys 5-10 years older than them and not many people bat an eye. But it's still not accepted that a 23 year old woman would go out with an 18 HS senior guy is it?

I'm with you on this one.

Why is it always sex with you?

Anyway, it varies. I'm 18 and I probably have more life experience than you can handle.

"Why is it always sex with you?

Anyway, it varies. I'm 18 and I probably have more life experience than you can handle."

Talkin' to me, DHShogun??

Sorry....I find it a bit hard to concentrate. Trying to....
(pant, pant) cool down.....after that...picture.... that
Babes sent me. :D :p

I agree with the general message of Harrison's post, live and let live---people dont choose who they fall in love with, and no one else is in any position to judge them for it.
One thing I did notice is that the way Betty and the Captain of the football team are described suggests that its 100% sex, nothing more, and soon Betty will be "smarter" and move into a different sort of relationship...Im not sure it was meant to sound that way at all.
I think that there most certainly is alot of love and affection involved in the relationships that are posted about and discussed on this site, irregardless of age or other factors. Thats why we seek advice and debate, because our hearts and minds are involved, not just our bodies!

:D

Originally posted by ravenglow
I think that there most certainly is alot of love and affection involved in the relationships that are posted about and discussed on this site, irregardless of age or other factors. Thats why we seek advice and debate, because our hearts and minds are involved, not just our bodies!

:D


Agree 110%!!! :D

Sorry....I find it a bit hard to concentrate. Trying to....
(pant, pant) cool down.....after that...picture.... that
Babes sent me.

What picture? I want the picture? Wheres the picture?

Steve :D

Actually, it's the little "present" she posted for me
in the second page of the 'Tall & Sexy' thread in the
Sexually Speaking forum. :)

Ok, I think my reply won't come as a surprise, but do I consider very ym (of legal age) adults? Of course!

Do I consider very ym (of legal age) mature adults? Well, that depends on the individual - many probably won't be, some most certainly are - for a variety of reasons

Can we always tell the difference? If we spend time with them and don't "impose" our pre-conceived notions of what they "are" or "should be", I am sure we are figuring that out quickly enough ;)

Do I think that very ym (of legal age) are more vulnerable than "older adults"? Definitely - that's the main difference between experience and no experience - the former gives you a broader sense of reference, maturity comes in when deciding how to deal with that ;)

Do ow getting involved with a very ym (of legal age) have a higher level of responsibility when dealing with their SO than women in relationships with "older" ym? Personally, I think so - this does not mean that I see it as my task or obligation to "parent" them or to make them "make right choices" - their life is still their life and own responsibility, but MY responsibility is to double-check my actions, intentions and implications of those on how they will impact on my SO - nothing more nothing less..

You could even argue that this applies to every relationship, but it's just that I think there should be an extra effort in looking into one's own motives, issues, and actions to make sure one makes the best possible choice (basically, I think relationships with generally "older" people allow more margin of error because you can expect the other one to have a bigger arsenal of coping mechanisms - with a very ym, those are just evolving, and I wouldn't want to screw them up by making unwise choices or unwise actions myself).

I think the main issue with very ym is that often it is their first serious or even long-term relationship and it will be some kind of "role-model" for future relationships (older guys are more set in that way - which might not be a good thing, mind you ;) but it's often enough the case - even though I don't want to generalize here).

So, that is - in summary - my take on the "dating a very ym" thing.

Now, the obvious question: why would anyone take this added responsibility on?! Well, all I can say, I would rather not, lol - only that I met Nordic as a very special and lovely person - and as I believe that the glass is half full and change, challenges and new opportunities are the fabric of life, I wonder why should I run away from something that surely is unconventional, predictably challenging, and probably finite, if the "benefits" (and, Harrison, I am NOT (only) talking sex here :D ) appear noticeably larger than the "disadvantages" (for either of us) involved?

Mind you, it does take someone special for me to have even considered it, but if I hadn't I surely wouldn't be here, no matter what the outcome in two - four - ten years might be ;)
But I am sure to keep you posted on any major developments :D

Well, since I seem to have been the catalyst for a lot of this, I need to shoot in here, too.
When David and I met, it was strictly in the game we were playing. He was a nice lonely kid from NC is all. I had lots of them. Most of the people in the game were guys in their mid-twenties down, and women in their late 30s and up. No idea why, other than we seem to be two groups that were discovering, or rediscovering ourselves, and Ultima, with its realistic world and social structure. Its a safe place to interact, and be brave and powerful. The worst that can happen is you can lose all your stuff you're carrying if you die, and can't find a healer in time. You can build houses, and decorate, and have jobs, join guilds, all that. My sons, one of whom was living in Japan, got me started playing, as a way for us to spend time together. My husband and I were not getting along, and it became a good escape. I could put my baby to bed, and while he snored in the recliner, I could travel the world, talk to people, make friends, all while sitting in my jammies. Both boys quit playing, but I was hooked. I could be powerful, look cool, kill evil, and fight for good. My guild was a bunch of young guys who became friends offline as well. They all knew I was older, had kids, and when I was going through my divorce, were wonderful to me. They were all very intelligent guys, funny, kind, and our guild was very honorable, and so are most of the guys who belong to it, in real life. I was kind of the mommy of the guild, but one they could ask questions of, about things they couldn't ask other adults in their lives. Having worked in a Family Planning clinic for years, and being a nurse, they would even ask about that kind of stuff. Some macho Italian kid of 15 from the Bronx, even worked up the courage to ask me if I thought there was a chance he would turn gay, cause his mom was sending him to an all male Catholic school the next year to keep him out of trouble. I was able to reassure him, that he was one of the most hetero guys I could imagine, and I didn't think it was anything to worry about.
Then came the day this quiet shy guy joined. He and I were always early for meetings. I was living no social life at all, my ex was terrorizing my apartment, insisting I had to be sleeping with everyone in the country, or why would I have left him. He and I started chatting, then more, icq added the voice calling feature, we were the only ones online, trying it out, when my ex showed up having one of his fits, broke in and tossed me around before I could get rid of him. David overheard it, and was horrified. About a month later, he told me he really cared about me, he really thought we owed it to each other to see if we could somehow be together. I of course, was all patronizing, told him it was normal for him to have a crush on me, but I wasn't my character all that. He was persistant, patient, courted me, ingame, out, reasoned with me, that we'd regret it if we didn't even try to see if it would work, we might be the love of each other's lives and if we didn't try we'd never know. The night I was going to cut off all contact with him, his dog died, he'd been his only friend since he was four. We were online together when it happened. Couldn't do it then.
I truly did care about this guy, I was nearly hysterical with fear, and knew I was insane or sick or something when he found ageless and brought me here. We met Jan and Nick, who met and married when Nick was 18, they're still together nearly 5 years later, and own the other site. There were Sean and Dee, who married on Sean's 18th birthday. They just divorced a few months ago. There were Brenda and Justin, Toasty as you know here, who met when Justin was 17. There was Lori, There was was Whisper, Taffy, Desert Spring, the wonderful BA. Many more I can't even mention. All of them lovingly cautioned me on the dangers, most of which I'd already thought about. We spent lots of nights in the chat room with Taffy and her guy, BA and Dave, we found we weren't nuts, perhaps, and we were far from alone. Nobody EVER said, heck yeah, the sex is great go for it!! They did talk about caring, and responsibility, they talked about freedom to allow each other to grow. They advised, all that. On the site, at the same time, there were others who terrorized in a kind, sweet way, people who they deemed in innappropriate relationships. One of whom just left. That person is the reason my guy refused to post, or even read the site anymore, after he was informed at his age, he was not even to be considered a man in any form and his opinion meant nothing. Direct quote. That situation is part of the reason that the other site was formed. I have email contact still with many others who left for the same reason. I've been told by other posters they'd never dream of posting about an argument, or whatever, due to the bias since their guy was under 21 when they got together, and they saw how that was treated. They would go elsewhere to talk about that.
I like the format of this site, message boards are easier to me than email groups.
Also I'm stubborn, and I felt it was necessary to stay to be a buffer for people who were in the unorthodox situation I found myself in. I also very much admire the great majority of people here.
Yes, David was indeed under 18. I am not a stupid person. I very carefully checked age of consent laws, in both our states. I talked to some police friends of mine. All before we ever met in person. I talked to my divorce lawyer, who assured me, that while definitely not traditional, it was also defininitely not illegal at all.
I took my responsibilities very seriously, to try not to hurt him at all because of me.
One of the first things I did was insist he set up a savings account in his name totally, so if he ever felt the need to go, he can. Polly emailed me the day she left saying her impression of our relationship is that he doesn't want to be with me, but feels he has little choice. If I've ever given that impression, it is totally false. When he had his spell of doubtfullness over a year ago, I was totally prepared to let him go, my only thing was, it was going to be totally gone then, as I couldn't emotionally take gameplaying going back and forth stuff. HE was the one who suggested counselling, went with me to each and every session, and decided he'd be stupid to mess up something he knew was good just to go play. And he didn't want to lose me.
Its been a privilege to be with him, to watch him mature, to see him loosen up and actually act his age, not like the ancient adult he always acted like. It's been fun, and hard, gut-wrenching sometimes. He's one of the most honorable people I know, and I really admire him.
He gets really upset with me over this site sometimes, because I do tend to let it eat at me, and I go through spells of staying away for a couple of weeks at a time, but always come back. Its like family to me, and wonderful new people show up all the time.
I'm sorry that she and Julie felt the need to leave, they did have tons of good advice, and I just wish that they could have just skipped the posts they didn't agree with, instead of what happened. I also really, really hope, that some of the people who left because of past incidents, start coming back now.
I have tried to never just advocate, going out and starting relationships with very young people of either sex, but once it's already there, its up to us, as a support site, to caringly help, in any way we can to deal with it. Its not always going to be in the yeah go for it direction, but it can be done nicely, without making someone feel even sicker than they already feel about it.
The true pedophiles already feel they're right, they aren't coming here for support.

We've been together over three years now, he'll be living with me for three years in May.
My ex boss hated our situation, its the reason we moved this year.
My son-in-law tried to say his son was never to be exposed to David at first, they were all here yesterday for our Christmas celebration. My grandkids ask "where's David?" when I go without him. It's all good now.
I have no idea if we'll ever get married, I've done it twice, both lasted over 10 years, so it doesn't seem as important right now.
I've actually had three important relationships in my life. Not that those are the only ones, just the major ones. I married the first two, and David. We discuss it from time to time.
Whether we last for a lifetime or not, its something I'm very glad I didn't pass up, and I'm happy I let him talk me into taking a chance.
He works really hard, he is caring, nurturing. He's not perfect, he does have a temper, he's male, but in his case, I can say, y'know, you're acting like a jerk, get over it, and he'll go to a different room, and collect himself, and apologize, and he's fine. If I'm acting like a jerk, he'll tell me y'know, you're acting like a jerk, go take a bath or something. So I do, and I apologize, and its fine.
Our counseling helped us see our different styles, I like to blow up, talk it out and get it over with. He likes me to present my *****, let him think about it, and then present his side, and that's something we both work on.
I do feel it's important with the really young ones, of both sexes, to make sure they have an out, if they need it, to not try to bend them, or use them. I also feel it's very important, and I stress that a lot here, that just because you're an older partner, you don't accept treatment you wouldn't accept from a partner your own age. Just because they're young, doesn't mean you don't deserve respect, and all the bells and whistles. They wouldn't be allowed to cheat on, or treat badly a girl their own age without backlash, and we should expect no less. I see that a lot. He'll be in his thirties, she in her fifties, still letting him get away with crap, because of his age. Bah!
Anyway. We're really just a normal couple, with all the normal problems. We are also still madly in love, he'll still attack me just because I walk by, even in grungy sweats. We hold hands in public, we snuggle at the movies, we go out on dates. We just have learned to deal with the extra quirks of our relationship, like being called his mom, or people turning their back to him and talking to me in stores, and all that nonsense. Waiters who hand him the check, automatically get a bigger tip. Most people once they assess and realize we're together have absolutely no problems. The only ones who get me, are the cute waitresses, or store clerks, who turn their back on me and talk to him. He's excellent at tossing an arm over my shoulder when that happens, or saying, "what do you think honey?" That fixes it.
Anyway, he's not, nor has he ever been, some innocent young child, kidnapped and manipulated by an older woman, bent on using him for my own needs.
We're not creepy, nor are we depraved. We're not a three ring circus of wierdos on this site either, and that ticked me off worse than almost anything.

Originally posted by babes66
Bella, I wasnt here when all that happened, but I do know that when I joined, with all my fears about dating a 19yr old, you were one of the 1st to welcome me, and have always given me compassionate and wise advise, so I thank you, and I wish you every happiness in your relationship!
...
I can second that, and I too really appreciate your insights and experience :)

Thanks again for explaining the "history" of the current tension; being involved with a very ym myself, I do agree that while it is important to be aware of the pitfalls of such a relationship, it's also important to see all parties involved in such a relationship been treated with respect and compassion, as most people seem to be looking here to do the "right thing" rather than indulge some self-serving purposes.

And of course there are always some borderline issues and some strong feelings involved, but I for one can say that in my case, I have found this site found very helpful, and it's the balanced advise of people like yourself (and many others here, I might add :D ) that make this site definitely worth staying for me.

So, thanks again for your post :)

/hug
C.

I think I'm the catalyst.

DEVON IS NOT IN HIGHSCHOOL. I am not sure how many times I have to say that...He is not in highschool. He is 18, but he's turning 19...not that this matters a flying ***k really, but I'm saying

HE IS NOT IN HIGHSCHOOL !!

Most relationships (agegap or not) do not last. I never enter anything with the idea that it will fail. Devon and I have not known each other a few weeks. We have been together for over eight months now. He is here with me now on a 4 month visit. Polly's relationship has lasted for 4 years? BFD...my last marriage lasted for 9 years. Success is defined by those in it. I assume that we will be happy and successful and if we are not...then it wasn't meant to be.

I will not allow negativity from complete strangers to influence me...I could care less what Polly and Julianne think. They are not the arbitors of adulthood or happiness.

There are many relationships with 18 and 19 year old women.

Do they get the grief that women get dating a man that age.

I DON'T THINK SO

Personally I am so sick of double standards. It's ok for a 40 year old man to date a girl still living with their mom and dad. Well not ok to the mom and dad maybe but ok to this site.

Women get pooped on lets face it, in all walks of life, this being one.

Marcy I think we, as a site, have determined that what you are doing is ok. There will always be detractors.

Whew!

I was just examining the definition of "Amazon" in
another thread and talking about "a race of women
warriors" and so on, and here comes Marcy, breathing
fire!

Ye Gods! :p :D

So, um, forgive me for being slow and out of the loop,
but is it true that Polly and Julianne have "left" the
Agelesslove site in part because the dispute over
whether 18 and 19-year-olds make good mates for
older women????

That seems so silly.

Just wondering what's going on.

That was a beautiful post, Rosalynde. I hope that one day you *will* feel comfortable here. I'm also very happy that Bella is posting here again, as well as Bear's Angel. I had missed them a lot. I, too, have spent a lot of time at the other site during periods that some members here at Agelesslove were attacking each other a lot. I have found the people at the other site to be wonderful, extremely supportive people. I would spend more time there, but I prefer this format much more. There are some wonderful people here, too, who I would miss too much if I were to leave; I just can't stand it when people narrow-mindedly judge others and feel that their point of view is the only once acceptable.

Rosalynde, when you wrote about having been abused as a child, I thought to myself that I'm glad you're continuing to post here and not allowing people to bully you into silence.

Everyone has a right to their own opinions, but they shouldn't try to force their opinions on everyone else and try to make others feel guilty for being who they are; that causes division, bad feelings, anger, hatred, and even wars.

People don't have to agree with how others choose to live, but they can allow others to be who they are.

I am just wondering...is there a line? Would you (speaking to everyone) draw the line at 16? 17? What about 15? 14? So if your (the collective "your") line was 17 don't you have the right to your feelings that 14 is too young to be dating a woman of say...32? If you draw the line at 15 ...can't you say out loud on a message board that 13 is a kid ...too young to be with a woman of 30 or 40? Isn't everyone entitled to their own opinions? Is that "judging"? Don't we do that everyday? "I would never drive an SUV gas guzzler..those people don't care about the environment" or "How can those people keep having kids? They have 5 now and can't keep them in shoes. CPS needs to step in! That is just wrong" I could think harder and come up with more examples but EVERYONE does it to some degree. Most of us have something that we are passionate about. Maybe it is animal cruelty, maybe better public education, maybe it is abused kids, homeless shelters, lower taxes, racism or even "ageism" but if you think something is wrong..you should be able to say it. If Polly thinks that under 21 or under 18 is too young...so what? If she wants to say she thinks it is sick...let her. If you don't think she is right...you don't have to agree with her. I just feel she is entitled to her passionate opinion. Some people are going to judge me because of my age gap. (22 years) Some will think I am sick, that I am abusing his youth, taking advantage of him. I have lost my best friend over this very issue. She thinks that if he was 22 years OLDER than me..that is acceptable. She actually told me that! Well, I think she is wrong..she thinks I am wrong. However, she is entitled to her opinion. She is entitled to tell me, I don't have to take to heart what she thinks and now she is on "ignore" in my life. I don't understand this whole thing. I don't feel right about the under 18 thing...but I am also one not to post my feelings. I guess I would probably be more inclined to post if the boy was in the 16 year old range. I do have strong thoughts on it but I just resist posting. Others are obviously more passionate about it. So, I guess my question is ...if someone comes here with an issue that is a bit controversial, can't others post their feelings of disagreement or can we only post if we agree?

EDIT: I don't mean legal stuff either. I think (I may be wrong) but I think Polly's issues are more moral judgements. So I don't think using the fact of what is "legal" is the point. At least not one I am making...

Lost_Spoiled, I think Bella is a wonderful person, too. She and David were the people who helped me the most when I first came to this site. They are both really great people.

In response to what Tru wrote, I don't think that there is anything wrong with expressing differences of opinions. It's not hurtful when a difference of opinion is expressed in a way that is not a finger-pointing, attacking way. What I mean is that, for example, if I feel very passionately against something that another is doing, I might say" *I* am against blah, blah, blah. It makes *me* feel very upset, angry, disgusted" or whatever.... I would *not* say, "*You* are sick for doing that, thinking that, believing that."

If Polly thinks that under 21 or under 18 is too young...so what? If she wants to say she thinks it is sick...let her. If you don't think she is right...you don't have to agree with her. I just feel she is entitled to her passionate opinion.

I don't think anyone questioned her right to her opinion.

They (Bella and Marcy) were just not going to let her voice
her opinions unchallenged as long as they felt insulted and demeaned by said opinions.

Sort of a battle of free speech, if I understand the situation
correctly.

Although I've always liked Polly, and thought her adorable,
intelligent, and gorgeous, she seemed to have a knack
for pissing a lot of people off, I guess.

But I don't think she was evicted, was she? I believe that
if she did leave, it was because she didn't enjoy the
conflict, and/or she felt outnumbered.

I do think the majority of posters are comfortable with the
idea of 18 and 19-year-olds mating with whomever they
wish. If that's so, then Polly was just beating her pretty
head against a brick wall. :)

I was 19 for one week when I got married. Like Babes it didn't fail due to my age. He was a cheating abusive scumbag. So perhaps it was that at 19 I didn't know how to make a good choice? Well I'm not doing much better at 52.

Dang...

...Swan is totally right, a women marrying at 16 isn't even commented on ( i know my marriage wasn't) yet women are the worst at slagging off other women for some reason..why don't we support and comfort each other? Most of the criticism I received when I started dating Streff was from other women, I just don't understand that!...


Divine Mysteries of the Sisterhood. ;)

Somewhere, there's a Women's Studies dissertation
waiting to be written. :D

Originally posted by Harrison


But I don't think she was evicted, was she?



No, I don't think she was "evicted" and I really am not wanting to to focus so much on Polly's leaving (even though I did use her as an example) but more on the rights of being able to post strong feelings. So if I hear Whisper right...was it mostly the WAY Polly (oops, guess I am focusing on her but really trying to get to a point in general) said it and not what she said or feels? I just kind of got the feeling that it was not how she was saying it as much as the fact that she was saying it at all. I may be wrong so maybe the ones who felt most "attacked" might clear that up for me.

Originally posted by Harrison

I do think the majority of posters are comfortable with the
idea of 18 and 19-year-olds mating with whomever they
wish. If that's so, then Polly was just beating her pretty
head against a brick wall. :)

Hmmm...I would think that is true too ...I am not so sure though if the majority would agree with starting it at 16 or 17. I mean...agree as in be able to say that without a doubt it is a totally acceptable good thing to do like the majority may agree that volunteering in a homeless shelter is a good thing but there might come some dissent when someone says giving money to homeless people on the corner of the intersection is a good thing. Did that make sense?

Btw..I most certainly would have strong feelings regarding OM/YW if it were an age gap line that I find wrong.

However, one thing that has happened to me as a result of falling in love with a 20 year old guy 22 years younger than me (he is 22 now) is a new level of tolerance. I do still have my feelings that a certain age is too young or a gap too big...but I can't say anything. I keep asking myself "who am I to say?" For every relationship I "judge" there is someone judging mine and I know mine is true, and good and pure. I think the best way to "help" the one's who have not learned to be more tolerant...is to be tolerant of them. Kill them with kindness. :)

Hmmm...I would think that is true too ...I am not so sure though if the majority would agree with starting it at 16 or 17. I mean...agree as in be able to say that without a doubt it is a totally acceptable good thing to do..."
--- Tru

No, that is totally different and NO ONE on here is
advocating relationships between minors and adults.
(See that, Maria?? ;))

Polly ticked a lot of folks off, I believe, by criticizing
in less than polite terms, the kinds of adult partners
they'd chosen. Big difference, and guaranteed to not
win you friends no matter where you go.

Whole different ball game.

For the record.
Buzz words that get to me are:
Pedophile, deviant, immoral, NAMBLA, child molester, mentally sick, pathetic, insecure, so on and so on.
All words used recently by Miss Polly to describe women in my situation.
Her opinion is one thing, outright cruelty is as bad coming from a cute little blonde as from anyone else, and I'm not sitting here letting it happen if I can help it.
Why the heck after reading some of the venom she's poured out would anyone defend it? I am sincerely puzzled.
I don't know if sometime, in her past, some male under 21 tried to kill her or what, but the dislike and disrespect for them came through loud and clear.
I'd have loved to have developed the feelings I have for David with someone more "age appropriate". I have what I have though, and I'm grateful.
She insulted him to the point of him leaving, she's done it to at least four other guys that age, that I can list, she's insulted people on the basis of appearance, religion, race, so on and so on, and yet, still gets defended. She told me in her last email that one of the reasons that she is leaving is that she feels there are many women making bad choices, and they're going to get hurt, nobody will listen to her, so she's going. Ok, so who appointed her judge?
I am, again, truly curious, why on earth its been ok, so long, for her to hurt as many people as she has, and still be defended.
She can say all she want she's done it in good fun, she doesn't mean anything by it, she says it in the nicest way possible, but she still has hurt and angered enough people here, that I can't believe it, and yet, here people are still saying its ok, cause it's her.
I don't get it.
And I'm sorry, but having this site called a three ring circus full of deviant wierdos by HER was the last straw for me.

I wonder (truly I do) why Polly did not offend me so much? I mean...my situation fell into one of her "wrong" catagories. I met my guy when he was just barely 20, on the internet and conduct a LDR. He still lives at home with his parents and is still in college. Hmm... I really do wonder.

Except, Sandie, that he didn't have custody of his son, he did do a lot of the childcare for him. They tried for custody after they started living together and were denied. That was on the old site, and that's when she said she was a "redneck", also trash, yadayada. But Robin must have seen something in her once.
That's also been one of our biggest disagreements. Somehow the fact that David was still a virgin at 17 totally by choice made him less mature than a 17 year old who had unprotected sex.
Go figure.

To paraphrase a popular English saying, I guess that
"Maturity is in the eye of the beholder." ;)

Go away for a little bit and wow look what happens, lol.

I don't have a lot of insight here but I do have a few feelings about things that I have found since I have been here:

I find it pretensious that one person hold up their OW/YM relationship as the ideal and beat everyone else over the head with it.

I find it disappointing that some of the women on "this side" of the forum feel the need to criticize women for dating 18-21 year old MEN, when the men on the "other side" get support for dating 18-21 year old WOMEN.

I find it unfortunate that because of some of the above behaviors only a handful of people post to "relationship support" out of the possible thousands that register. There is fear of criticism and reprisal if your relationship doesn't meet some loosely defined "moral standard" that has nothing to do with legality.

I find it sad that older women and younger men in long distance, internet, or foreign relationships are made to feel less significant because they don't "go to bed with their love" every night, at least for now.

All of this is truly too bad, because the whole idea about being here is to share and learn from one another about how to find happiness and joy in relationships with people we just happened to fall in love with. It's for OW/YM to share their joy and sorrows in a safe environment before or while having to face society at large, which we all know is very, very judgemental of such relationships.

I don't know who appointed the judge and jury around here but I wish it would just go away and we could move on to create an atmosphere of love and support we can all be proud about. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US!!!!

Let's think about it, ok?

Amen Bubbleee, wonderfully said....
Looks like I missed the fireworks around here lately......
There is so much to read......

Originally posted by Tru
I wonder (truly I do) why Polly did not offend me so much? I mean...my situation fell into one of her "wrong" catagories. I met my guy when he was just barely 20, on the internet and conduct a LDR. He still lives at home with his parents and is still in college. Hmm... I really do wonder.
Tru,
my situation is kinda a similar to that of other people here and yours, in that I am dating a 19, soon to be 20 yr-old ym - what's more, it's something that started online over a year ago, we are "together" on our joint "exploration" of our relationship since this June, which makes it about 6 months, of which we spend probably about 6-7 weeks irl together - so, I always like to make the point that we are "starting off" our relationship.

So, in that sense I do feel addressed by Polly's posts - and whenever she started generalizing, I think I made it a point to illustrate that I think she is generalizing. But I do think I tend to do it in non-offensive way ...

I did not per se felt "insulted" by her posts, but I did find her posts on this particular issue moralizing, judgemental and her choice of words .... well, unkind is the nicest I can say ;). That does not mean that I have issues with her opinions at all, and she had many good points there - but even though I didn't take her posts personally (basically, because i don't give anyone I don't even know that much power), I have seen other people take offense, and yes, I can see why - even though in some cases, I think both sides ended up being a bit defensive ...

Still, my take is and my understanding all along, is that it is NOT Polly's or others opinions in that matter, but the WAY it's been addressed, that's been addressed here - and yes, Bella summed up quite a few words that especially Polly has been throwing around lately which I do agree are overstepping the border of common courtesy.

Personally, I can shrug something like that off, because I know it's got nothing to do with me and I guess I am thick-skinned when it comes to people who are not "intimate friends or family", but I can see that this fight gets old after a while, and if you are having the same mud-slinging every other couple of months (as it seems, and I have seen at least 2-3 of these), I can understand nerves getting a bit frayed.

Having said all that, I most certainly don't mean to slag Polly off by stating this here - as I said, I do appreciate quite a few of her points - but yes, posted in reply to her pretty much all the time, which often was in response to her wording ;) . I guess people are triggered off by different things; for Polly it might have been very ym/ow relationship; I am responding to stereotyping and generalisation; others react more to innuendo and insults. But yes, I CAN see, why eiither side reacts the way they do (me included, ofc ;) ).

But in general:

As Bubblee (and others) says so rightly, we of all people should not get at each others throat ;) Sometimes we might just have to forgive those you hurt us, and this goes for both sides - a lot of hurt feelings are around atm, and alot of stubborness and self-defense.

We all need to grow and heal in one way or the other, let's just start here by accepting that harsh words create pain and more harsh words and try to remember our own inherent compassion ;) - I know I am not always perfect in that respect, but I think it might be a good time now to forgive and let go of hurt, resentment and judgement

/soapbox off

/edit: and lol @ Babes :D well, if it will turn out good or bad, in either case I am wishing you guys the best and Merry Christmas ;)

I have nothing against people dating guys under 21 but I couldn't do it. I am a school counselor at the high school level. Not only would I jeapordize my job but I also know that there is not one single 18 year old at that school who would be worthy of me. They are not in the same frame of mind, they are not ready for adult responsibility and personally I wouldn't find anything in common enough with them to date them. I want my guy to have worked for a few years, lived on his own for a few years and know what it is like to do their own thing. That's just me. Do I ever find guys in high school attractive? Yup. There are some cute and sweet guys. But date them - never in a million years. They are not ready for me yet. Perhaps after law school! ;-)

Onetiger,
my hypothesis is that when you ask most of those of us who got involved with someone that young, it wasn't something we were looking for at all ;) my guess is - and extrapolating from my experience and those cases I know of here - that we got to know "someone" and formed a special bond with them DESPITE them being that young ;)

I would have said exactly the same thing you are saying about 6-12 months ago ;) in fact, I did ;) I suppose something like that is more likely if you meet someone online and don't get distracted or biased by their age, but by their personality ;) (of course there are those meeting irl too, I am just guessing at probabilities here ;) ).

I know there is no way ever I would have ever met, far less got involved with Nordic if we had met irl first. It was the "getting to know each other" independently of age, looks,money, clothes, etc that makes the difference here, for better or for worse ;)

Just thought I clarified that for those that never have been in that situation ;)

Hon...I do think there are limits...and luckily for all of us the Law sets them plain and clear. I do not think there is ANYTHING wrong with saying this is not okay for me whatever "this" maybe...

be it an LDR or an online relationship or a relationship with a vym.

I guess I draw the line at referring to a woman as sick and a pedaphile for a legal relationship. Do you not agree that referring to legal consenting adults as pedaphiles somewhat dilutes the meaning of the word? Is intended to flame? It is one thing to say I would not do this...it is another altogether to proclaim all people who do this as sick and only interested in "boys".

18 is a legal man...All I ever did was argue (passionately) that this was the case.

Although, I would say arguing the maturity of a 20 year old (Polly's man) over an 18 year old (mine) is something like arguing the attractiveness of differing subtle shades of blue...

Originally posted by Lost_Spoiled
...I suspect there are plenty of people out there who would still say, "You know what... we do have an amazing bond, but I am not comfortable with the age gap here (specifically the VYM's age) and I cannot overlook that" and would end things right then and there no matter how much it hurt...
Absolutely, Lost_Spoiled - and I think the very thought process is what brought a lot of us here - me, for sure.

It's not like I haven't had this debate in extensio with my ym, Nordic - initially, I basically laughed him off, telling him he had a chance of less than 1% to get me even "considering" him ... - then I reacted, like Bella described, patronizing, telling him why this is basically not going to work etc etc etc.

The funny thing is, he got me - in addition to the fact that we HAVE had a special bond - by saying something along the line (don't remember the exact wording) that "why would age make a difference, if race, culture etc would not"?! and that really got me thinking ... you know, we would in this day and age consider prejudice regarding race, religion, etc. In what sense is age that much different?

The fact that I didn't find a fair and suitable answer to that was what what kept me searching on the internet and finding this website. And it still is one of the main reasons why I made this leap to overcome my own apprehensions - that maybe it might be just ingrained in us as other prejudice have been in other times - imagine 100 yrs ago getting involved with someone of a different race or culture and reactions to that; is the age prejudice so much different?

As I couldn't answer this with yes, it was the obvious conclusion to me to open my mind and accept the possibility, chances and risks of it. I do understand that many people might choose otherwise - but I decided for myself that the situation and people involved were special enough to consider a special situation - and as I have not yet found a convincing reason why this - in my individual situation with two consenting adults of pretty firm views of who they are and what they want - should be in any way denied or dismissed...

And that's why I am still where I still am ... ;) - and why I am emphasizing the individual over the stereotype ;)

Actually I think regardless of where I met someone who was under 21 they wouldn't do it for me. As soon as I found out their age and where they were in life, it'd be over. I can't imagine that I would meet someone who wasn't in the working world for a while and find them attractive enough on enough levels (emotional, mental, etc) to warrent falling for them. I guess in some ways my head gets in the way of my heart. And I do believe that we can choose to not fall for someone. I'll probably be in the minority here...but as a person who studies psychology, I just know that our emotions have a lot to do with our brain and our interpretations. And if we want to interpret something one way, we will...so I won't fall for someone who doesn't fit what I want out of life & I have very high expectations. (blame private school for life) I might miss out on some great people and I recognize that...but I'm very, very picky in some ways. (and perhaps why I'm so very single!).

We had this discussion before, can you choose who you fall for and like you I was in the minority.

So lets not get into the choose or not choose debate again but I have to say I am right there with you on this.

I agree with you onetiger. And, Swan, actually the title of this thread indicates to me that we can still post our opinions about how we feel about "young, young YM adults". So, hope you'll bear with me while I express my opinion on this topic.

For me, the main reason I don't see myself getting involved with a man under 21 is because I have a son that age and I see how immature he is. I agree with onetiger completely, that for me personally, I just need to know that someone has had enough of life's experiences before I commit to them long-term. Because, this is it for me.

Now, having said that, that does not mean that I am opposed to others being involved with someone that young if that is what makes them happy. Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them.

And, I will also say that there are some very young guys who are more mature than some guys I've met who are older than me! Matter of fact, my guy is more mature than the last one I dated and he is 11 years younger than him.

I truly believe that it is the maturity factor that Polly was trying to first post about when she in fact did become defensive. But, as I posted on the other thread, my objective observation, as someone who is not involved with a man quite that young (mine is 28), I can read the exact moment when things turned ugly. And, in my opinion, it was when someone who is involved with a man who is less than 20 became defensive first. That's my opinion... that's how I read it. I am not justifying anything that Polly said whatsoever. I am still not taking sides. I did find it very sad, however, that not everyone can see how their own defensiveness had a role in how things got out of hand.

That was the point I was trying to make on the other thread. I realize that as I write this, I'll probably get someone riled again. That's not my intention. I just feel the need to say that it is my opinion that everyone here is responsible for keeping tempers under check. And, we all know how easy it is to let our tempers flare when we are at a computer, rather than having a direct in person conversation with the individual with whom we are disagreeing.

Don't misunderstand me... I was not happy with some things that Polly posted, too. Especially on another thread that I think has since been deleted called "no more excuses". She wrote about women who get involved with YM from other countries, which I wasn't happy about, because that's describing my situation. But, rather than respond in anger, I chose not to respond to her post as she has a right to express her own opinion. And, she mentioned no names, so how do I know for sure she was even talking about me??

Now, if she had mentioned my name personally in her post, certainly I would have openly responded. But, otherwise, it's not worth my energy getting into an open argument with someone who just happens to have a different opinion than my own. Which she has every right to have.

But, I agree that this is a support forum. But, we also need to be realistic that this kind of disagreement is going to come up from time to time. And, I believe that how we choose to respond (or not respond) can either contribute to, or prevent, another argument.

Thanks for the kind comments lost_spoiled.

About Polly's thread...I don't know if Polly deleted it or if the moderators did. I just noticed it was gone.

Although I don't agree with the way Polly worded it, she made valid points.

FOR MYSELF, 18 is too young, whether online or irl, no matter what kind of bond I may share with him, I tend to remember that its not just about me. I'm one of those people who does believe that we can control who we fall in love with and once I set my mind on not making a relationship something I CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT, its friendship basis only.

My niece has a very cute 22 yr old, who seem to stare at me the whole night last october for a Halloween party at her mothers. He seem to be seeing me with new eyes (he's in the military now and has grown up quite a bit), although I've known him since he was 14. Cute though he is, he is my niece's friend, although they are friends, I have no desire to compete with my niece, its stupid and a worthless point to make to alienate a child I love dearly, no guy is worth that.

I do have another friend who is turning 22 next month, and although I know he likes me, I can't go beyond his age as he doesn't work, still lives at home, although going to school. He's invited me to his house a few times and I've always made an excuse not to go, as I'm not his peer or playmate and refuse to go to his house so we can "hangout together in his room" as if we were 17 yrs old. He doesn't get it. I would find it disrespectful to his mother (she's 5 years older then me).

For those of you who are in under 23 relationship, more power to you, I just cannot. I would never have dated an older man when I was 18 and I won't date an 18 yr because now he's legal or its more politically accepted. Its not that I don't have the guts, I just don't see the chemistry for them, cute though they may be. But for those who feel that chemistry, they should be able to have their relationship however they want it to without getting flack from any of us.

Since coming to this site, I do observe two things that also make me steer clear of very young men, I don't like that the women are satisfy for the here and now, however long that may be. Whether it be 2 months, 3 years, or 5 years...to say that at least I had fond memeories of some ym who boink me every nite for a few months or years, has got to be insulting to the ym (my impression of them is that they do want to be taken seriously). I dont' want short term memories, sorry I'm selfish that way, I want longevity and stablity. For the here and now, I guess I could hire a male escort. The other is the of lack of common sense not taken. We would give up everything... children, family, friends...whatever, just to be with these ym, that we ordinarily don't do for the om, its been really interesting. I think Captain is the only long term relationship on here that I've seen. The statistics are not very cheerful. And I think Polly made that observation here too, though not quite too politely.

I think the reason we can make allowances for a younger woman/om is because we still are of this mentality that the men are the rocks that protect and fight for their families, OW are the brains of the family. Men whether young or old still have that instinct to protect, not becaue the women are the weaker sex, but because they lack physically strength.

I read somewhere that men who marry before 25 have a 56% of divorcing (wish I could find those stats again, i was just surfing at random), FOR MYSELF, I would just like to give the ym a little bit more time to mature and live on his own. FOR MYSELF, I will like to hope that he's form a solid foundation and character that will sustain him in living with me instead of playing it by ear.


Paris

That was a very well-articulated response, Paris.

Perfectly valid points you made, but I'd quibble just
a tad with this:

...I don't like that the women are satisfy for the here and now, however long that may be. Whether it be 2 months, 3 years, or 5 years...to say that at least I had fond memeories of some ym who boink me every nite for a few months or years, has got to be insulting to the ym (my impression of them is that they do want to be taken seriously). I dont' want short term memories, sorry I'm selfish that way, I want longevity and stablity.

I think we all want longevity and stability, but there's
just no assurance of it, period.

You never know who your spouse is going to meet at
work, or who YOU will meet at work, or whether your
spouse's job will be eliminated in a periodic economic
recession, etc. These are all factors that can lead
straight to divorce court.

So, while we all seek longevity, very few of us can
guarantee it.

Just some food for thought.

You're right, but for myself...let's just say I will try to "pick it up a notch" and choose guys who are in a better position to endure to the end and at times that means, putting our feelings to the side and asking the hard questions, if we dare.

Outside forces beyond my control are not valid reasons to divorce, unless you're looking for a way out. I will work with the guy to the bitter end, whatever that may be. My toleration level is pretty high for what is workable. I know, a partnership life is not all honky tory. If you divorce because he lost his job, that's kind of a lame, don't you think...

Sorry, I don't see very many 18 yr olds in for it that long and frankly I don't blame them, but its sad when 8 times out of 10, its the women who come to post about failure of yet another ym relationship and they're usually younger then 25/26. As I read the OM/YW thread, it doesn't seem to happen as often, women are just not as flighty, they don't need to be. As some of the women here stated, with previous marriages, it wasn't that they weren't mature enough to endure the harshness of their marriage relationships, they guys were not putting in their effort after 10/20 years of marriage and these are same age guys.

I hate it when articles are written stating that these relationships work because women dont need men anymore to take care of them as they are making their own money, independent beings, etc. It kind of implies that its all for sex, isn't it. Considering how men and women, hear and think, I just wonder what kind of messages are we sending the very ym.

Paris

Lynn, in all the huff, I missed the Streff post. That is wonderful, and I wish you all the happiness in the world.

about a month ago, I OP'd a thread asking for advice (not on ages), but on a future (about 1 year away) visa question regarding my partner. My partner is a vym. I can assure all prior to this thread, I was open regarding all advice given to me and a very active participant in this forum. Polly posted to my thread calling 18 years children and women involved with them pedophiles. She akined the site to "sisters of nambla". The thread was ultimately deleted by moderators. It was pretty horrific.

I am sure to current readers, it seems that what started the hostility is strong defense and exception to Polly's words in the Polly's Red Flags (sorry can't recall its actual name) post that is now deleted and her words in the "Daughter vs. Boyfriend" thread.

Everyone is open to their own opinions about what they would and would not do and with whom. I take exception and will post accordingly when the opinion is meant to inflame, insult, deride, and cause harm to others. An 18 year old is an adult. A person involved with one is in a legal relationship and not a child abuser. Clearly stating the contrary is inflaming, insulting, deriding, and intending to harm.

As far as a teacher involved with an 18 year old student, this is not proof that said student is a minor...I am 35...if I were to get involved with any of my staff...(all of whom are older than me)...I would be in serious trouble. College profs are not to be romantically involved with their students either, although most of them are adults. No person (regardless of age) should be involved with a person over whom they have authority. If a HS teacher were to be involved with an 18 year old student...while they would certainly and rightfully be in jeopardy of losing their job...they would not be in jeopardy of jailtime...why not? AN 18 YEAR OLD IS A LEGAL ADULT .

Age =\= maturity or life experience.

Originally posted by swanqueen
There are many relationships with 18 and 19 year old women.

Do they get the grief that women get dating a man that age.

I DON'T THINK SO

Personally I am so sick of double standards. It's ok for a 40 year old man to date a girl still living with their mom and dad. Well not ok to the mom and dad maybe but ok to this site.

Women get pooped on lets face it, in all walks of life, this being one.

Marcy I think we, as a site, have determined that what you are doing is ok. There will always be detractors.

From the other side:

Maybe it seems that OM/YW get off the hook more so than OW/YM, but this is not the case. Men who date younger women get called dirty old men, perverts, pedophiles, etc....

Who catches the most grief for it?

Women.

"Are you looking for a father figure?"

"Did your daddy abandon you?"

"Does your daddy not love you?"

I cannot express how much these comments set my teeth on edge. My Dad is a great man; he wasn't perfect as a father, but I never expected him to be. He was as good as he can be, and NO I'm not looking for a father figure, I'm looking for love--and I found it in a man who happens to be of a different age than me.

My point? It's still the same old story.... Women, no matter what we do, are evil and wrong. We're perverts who want young boys. We're sick in the head for wanting to be with our daddies.

And...women are just as guilty of it as men. I've been out and about with my love and caught a few glares--from women his age. I get the most lectures from women my age--"Are you sure? But--he's so much older! What happens when he's 60 and you're 45? Is he not right in the head? What does a guy that old want from someone your age? It's got to be all about sex. He'll leave you for a younger woman when you get to be his age."

~sigh~

The only way we can make a difference is by living our lives the best we can, in happiness, with love, as an example of who we are and how it can and should be.

AMEN, TO THAT HARRISON ALSO...IF SEX IS WHAT AN OLDER WOMAN WANTS, WHY NOT A YOUNGER MAN? i LOVE THEM. THE ONLY TIME IT GETS A LITTLE "STICKY" IS WHEN ONE GETS SERIOUS...THEN THE OW COULD FIND HERSELF "NUTURING" AND MAYBE THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE WANTS...AND OF COURSE, THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE YM WILL MEET A YOUNGER WOMAN..BUT HEY..THE OLDER WOMAN COULD MEET AN OLDER, MATURE, EXPERIENCED MAN TOO...SO LIVE IT UP! YOU ONLY GO AROUND ONCE...

Well, I hope soon we can put this whole thing to rest. The fact is, we are not going to agree on this issue. Why would we expect this many people to agree on any one issue??? And its good to hear the differing views...Everyone has the right to state their opinion, as always. Also, everyone has the right to read that opinion and state their own.

I just don't want anyone to feel like they have to defend themselves over and over here. And in all honesty, I also have felt personally hurt by some of the comments that happened here over the weekend...

I am just going to be all out honest when I post here, and I don't come to be judged, I can do that myself. And I don't come to be attacked...there is enough of that out in the world. I do not have a problem with someone giving me advice...or telling me they think my relationship might not work out. I just have a problem with name calling and being hateful. I can't have that on this site. When we make a hateful comment against one person, we have no idea how many other people out there are reading that comment who are in the same boat, and take that personally. I took some things said here in anger very personally, and they were not directed towards me in particular.

So, yes, voice your opinion, be heard. Think about how you word it, and don't belittle or attack anyone in the process. Remember that you will be held responsible for the words you post, even the ones you posted in anger or hastily.

On the issue of this thread, my relationship with J started when he had been 18 for about 2 weeks. Now he is 21. It is still the very best relationship I ever had with anyone of ANY age... *winks*

Jody, I really liked what you wrote. I think you have a lot of common sense.

I didn't know that you're in a relationship with someone who was 18 when you met.....you're still together and happy. That is wonderful. I know that there are men who are mature at a young age. Personally, I was married to a guy who is near 50 and he is unbelievably immature. My husband was 21 when we first got together and he was more mature at 21 than my ex ever was, even in his forties. People are individuals. Each situation is unique. My husband is younger than my oldest son and yet my husband is much more practical than my son and in many ways more mature. They are both wonderful men, though.

Don't know who hurt you on here..my personal opinion is this, what goes on between a man an a woman is their own business. If he happens to be younger..great...I have noticed people on here(and not all) seem to express very strong opinions. That is okay..however, each ow/ym situaton is different as is anything in life...hoping someone can help me with mine..it is is not going as well as I would like...and I am feeling bad right now..not sure what to do...wonder if I should just say "goodbye" and forget it...he is 35, I am 60..and there are so many problems..
Please don't answer this if you haven't a kind word, I am hurting bad enough..:mad:

May I ask the age difference between you and your husband? My young man is 4 years younger than my older son.

Jan, I'm 26 years (sometimes 27 years;depends on the time of the year) than my husband. You can read more about our relationship on the chit chat section under person of the week.

Hey everyone - Guess I should probably issue a warning. This looks to be a very long post. I actually found myself taking notes as to what I wanted to say when I read over all the posts :>

I suspect it will also skip around a bit much from topic to topic, but them's the breaks.

Firstly: While I am always an advocate of saying that relationships with very young guys do make some special demands, I can't help feeling that we're overdoing this a bit. They are, merely, human beings.

Truthfully, being in a relationship with a very young man is, most of the time, just like being in a relationship with any other man. You cook, you clean, you watch movies. You use the same communication skills that you would use to maintain a relationship with any other brand of human being. It's not like they're space aliens from the planet Mars.

Every once in a while, issues come up that are age-related and you have to deal with them. Every once in a while, glory be, issues come up that aren't age-related and you have to deal with them, too. And you know, what works in one situation: mutual honesty and respect, compassion, giving each other space to grow and change: often works in the other situation, too.

We're all people, first and foremost, no matter what our age and gender may be.

For those of you who would "never". I know it's a truism, but never say never. It's the best way in the world to end up doing things you never imagined you would :>

I "never" would have gotten involved with a college freshman when I was 35, either. Never in a million years. Except that I did. Why? A bunch of reasons:

I didn't choose him to be in love with him. I FELL in love with him and then I had to choose what to about it. That's the only choice there was for me. Did I think it was weird? Indubitably. But I'd loved weird before. Passionately, and for ten years with someone a decade older who had experiences I couldn't dream of at 21. Someone who didn't go to college, wore leather and rode a motocycle, and appalled my mother no end. He was the best man I ever knew and a glorious husband. Weird can be the best thing that ever happened to you.

I didn't know at the beginning how it would work out - EITHER of these relationships. I suppose, on paper, neither looked too good right there at the start. No doubt, lotsa people would have told me for my own good that neither sounded too hot. But the truth is, that you never f******g know, and in both cases, I have been rewarded beyond my most optimistic expectations
for doing the weird thing. None of us are Cassandra's and relationships are not exact things that can be plotted on a graph to their logical conclusion. So I don't know how you can tell people whether or not their relationship will work.

Alot of people are saying things about knowing younger guys as sons or as students and drawing conclusions from the nature of those relationships. I don't think so, personally. I am about to be a 40 year old woman, and I STILL have trouble acting like and being treated like a mature woman in front of my mother. As hard as it may be to believe, sons and students have an identity of their own outside of their relationships with you, and it may be very different. And it's not like fathers EVER think they're little girls are ready to be some guy's muse. But they are.

And it's not about them being cute, sweet or affectionate. (Although I will say my guy is all 3 of these things). But more importantly, he's insightful, loyal, brave, adventurous, supportive, intellectual, trustworthy and totally admirable. And that's why I love him.
Because he's worthy of it. In every way.

When people say that women are now free to choose because they have their own money, what they mean is that we can choose to be with the person who makes us feel whole and free and affirmed and desirable, not the one who can support a family on one income. And that's a wonderful thing that hasn't been true for much of humanity's history. It is empowering to women when we choose well. Now we have to learn how to choose well and that is an ongoing process. And when women get better at it, we will send the message that being a good partner is what it's all about.

Will it last forever? I haven't yet figured out how to determine if anything will last forever. My marriage was ended by cancer and I sure as heck didn't see that coming. All I know how to do is to love someone and enjoy their company for as long as we both want to be together. If you know more than that, then I guess you'll have to explain it to me. I believe that if we both want to stay together forever, then that's exactly what we'll do.

Yes, we do sleep together in the same bed every night and of course, that's important. It doesn't mean that's the only way to have a relationship, or that we're better than anybody else, but it does mean that we do that face time, so when we talk about being together, we know EXACTLY what that means. it's not a guess, or a hope. It's reality. And it means that when we talk about forever (and we really don't do that all that much), the subject of the conversation is not vague and foggy to either of us. And I do think it makes for a relationship that is, shall we say, further on, than one that is still in an on-line or occaisional visit phase. And relationships grow and change and go forward and hopefuly blossom from whatever phase they're in at this point.

About the recent unpleasantness: a few thoughts. My most central thought is of course, that when I first came here, I was pretty sensitive about his age and I really would've taken a blasting pretty hard. And that's not what I got from the folks here, (even you, Julie LOL) and that was good. I was intensely self-critical. I sent myself for therapy. I thought the grief for my deceased husband had rendered me wiggy. I felt fragile and very wrong, as in love as I was. It wouldn't have taken much to send me over the edge - thick-skinned as I usually attempt to be. So you gotta realize that people aren't always in a good place for a moral blast. If we relaly think they're out of line and sure, some folks are, then the point should be to write in such a way that they CAN listen you. From a supportive and respectful place.

I'm deliriously happy that Marcy has slowed down with Smiwi. Sounds like she's doing exactly what alot of posters advised her to do, despite how hard it was to hear it. That's totally great. So at least some of us, DID get a message to her in a way that she was able to hear. So never say that it's impossible to do that. It's not.

Finally, Sandie and Bella, I do hear you. I could do without the name-calling too. But the nasty comments about Robin, above, are just as crappy as anything else, and it's hard to feel sympathy when I read the little trashfest. I know that's the way women treat each other when they're angry, but really enough of that.

Well, there's probably more to say, but enough of this, too.

Peace

This is true DS, and as my mom tried to teach me, two wrongs do not make it right. I've never so much as said hello to Robin, do not know him at all, so,for anything I may have said about him, I hereby humbly apologize.
That said, I also am very proud of, and happy with, my own exceptional love, and wish every woman could be as blessed as I feel every day.

Originally posted by Bella
..............I hereby humbly apologize.
That said, I also am very proud of, and happy with, my own exceptional love, and wish every woman could be as blessed as I feel every day.
Bella you are a sweetheart,
Merry Christmas
Hugzzz
~Tammy

That was a wonderful post, DS. I think you touched a lot of hearts with that....you sure touched mine.

DS. brilliant post, as usual :D

Merry Christmas, all :D

I listened to the advice given and appreciated it very much. It is hard to hear some things...but if I didn't want other's thoughts...I wouldn't have asked ;).

It was the painful things written in that thread that really hurt and upset me. I think you know exactly what I am referring to.

I don't think I could date a person in his teens or early twenties. First of all I'm too vain and too insecure to even think about it. They would just seem so young to me.

When I look at Greg who is 16 years younger than me - sometimes his face looks like a baby's butt - just way too soft and young. (I prefer him with his grow out beard- adds 10 years to his age)

Generally speaking, I would think that most of the young men simply would not be mature enough with life's experiences FOR ME. And FOR ME is the point of my post.

What works and doesn't work FOR ME is all about me. I will listen and read all the folks who have relationships that may not be FOR ME.

I don't wear jeans because they pinch my fat little body. Some people don't care if their tight jeans pinch their bodies. I get all icky feeling about it. But that's just my opinion.

I keep my dogs in the house and sometimes my house smells doggy like. You know? Some folks are repulsed by the thought of dogs in the house and the dog hair and the dog smell.

Some women don't care if their mate is 16-17-18 as long as a need for that woman is met and it satisfies them. And that's ok with me. I don't care all that much whether that woman wears tight jeans that pinch her, if she keeps her dogs outside when it's too cold or if she likes a man who is still in his teens. (well the dog outside in the cold would actually rankle me).

But I truly just don't think it would work for me to be with a guy that young - still in his teens. However I would be the first to admit to you all if I did meet someone who turned my head who was so young. And I agree completely that anything is possible. Who is to say? Who could possibly know?

And even more so, life's developments can create maturity at very young ages. There likely are mature young men out there in their late teens who indeed can navigate life with their older woman.

I'm jumping all over here, aren't I? yes and no, I wouldn't, maybe I would. hmmm. I think I will just go back to my honey.

But you know, he's 33 and there are some things that he can be pretty doggoned immature about too. Gosh, I love him.

Happy Holidays to all of you and your loved ones!

Cindy

Cindy I liked your post. It is always fair to say not for me. It wasn't all that long ago that I would NEVER have said this was for me either.

Two things come to my mind when I read your post.

1. I think I am likely younger than you and likey most of the others that are so strongly against dating vym too. My age gap is also 16 years... (17 depending on the time of year ;)). I am 35. When I am in my 40s....Devon will be in his 20s.

2. I know I did not go seeking a very young partner. I don't think from what I have read that most of the women have done so. I do not pass any judgement whatsoever on those that do though. They are legal adults and to each their own :D! I met Devon playing an online game. We connected online for a very long time. I didn't even know his actual age for sometime down the road of our relationship. When I found out, I was terrified and distraught. I loved him so much and we were so bonded/connected. Its those feelings of horror and fear that drove me to Ageless in the first place. It has taken a lot of time for me to be in the more secure place I am now. Reading the posts of the fabulous women here ~Bella, Rosalynde, Tru, Carazy, Mrs. Hedgehog, Bears Angel, Desert Spring, Joannalee, and Swanqueen (I'm sure I'm leaving out others too!)~ helped me greatly.

Its not something I would have gone looking for, but I'm grateful every single day that it found me. :)

As usual, a fantastic post from Desert Spring. I wish I could put my thoughts into words as she does.

DS, you made a good point. Those of us who have been here a long while have gotten our thick skin about our relationships.(somewhat) But those who have pretty much newly joined, who feel so vulnerable and upset still, who are looking for advice....they are not yet in that place where they can handle getting slammed. (are we ever, really?) And, advice DOES have to be given so that it is heard. Even if it's something someone does not want to hear. Putting it poorly just makes a person cover their ears and run, and hurts deeply. Sometimes I think replies are worded like a Jerry Springer show, just for the entertainment value. That is a sad thing....our lives are not entertainment for others. We come here sometimes with raw feelings, and sincere problems, no one wishes to be humiliated and hurt.

Since I've got a broken computer, and am rarely online now, I tuned in kinda late to all of this. I'm weary of it all tho, and am not sorry I missed it. So many of you I love like sisters, and I can't stand to hear the fighting and back stabbing.

And for those of you that don't know me, I am 47, my guy is 24. I met him ONLINE when he was 19. He grows dearer to my heart as the years pass. He was no less my admirable man at 19 than he is now at 24. It truly depends on the person. No one should ever judge, and truly, never say NEVER.

Everyone have a happy holiday.....

Love, from Kye

That was a great post, Kye.:)

I've been staying off here today, getting last minute stuff done, and just popped on quick before we leave. I wanted to say, THIS is the Ageless that I love, and I am so glad to see this thread.
Kye, m'love, you are too sweet. I'm glad to see you here, and I'm glad you missed the icky stuff, myself included.
Happiest of holidays to all of you, and yours.
Frances

But Captain1997, in general we are not talking about males still in puberty.

How long, would you say?

here's my analysis:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Edited due to complaint by fellow beloved ageless member. Thanks for looking out for me and the website. Next time just contact me directly and i'll remove the offensive post myself. You don't have to be scared of me. I dont bite. Really I'm a nice guy. :D
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Geez Captain. Are you harboring the illusion that women don't actually want to have sex?

I'd posit a guess that most of us don't intend to deny sex to our romantic partners :>

Heck, I want sex, too.

And I don't usually refer to sex as "breeding", but to each is own :>

And again, men - young ones and old ones, are human beings first. They want all the things any other human being wants: security, warmth, support, a feeling of being understood, comfort, intellectual stimulation, fun, adventure, freedom and um..... orgasms.

What's to get?

Originally posted by captain1997
Well I havent posted in ages. But Im in the mood for it so here it goes.

When a young male passes through puberty, all he thinks about is breeding. Doesnt matter with who or where. Im sorry gals, there is no way to sugar coat it or sycho-analize it. Its nature in its purest form. Rain is wet and teen boys want sex. Crave it actually. Thats the way it is. So why some people think its indecent to satisfy that urge via an older woman, I think its in humane to intentionally deny them.

OMG... That will reap some responce. (my spelling I mean..lol)

Well I know its not only teenage puberty boys, I have a 30 year old that is wild as a bucking bronco that craves "it" day and night.
"Boys have penis's, girls have a vagina :p
And I bet the YW from the other side can tell you that their OM are just as hot and horny and into "breedin" as sure as there is thunder before the rain :)
I think that the old saying that YM are the hottest sex partners is a bunch of crap, I think that when at any age you have a guy and you boink that they are just as hot.
But I also think that sex with love is the best. :)
~SnowP

GREAT post SnowPrincess.....i totally agree! :D