He broke up with me and I answered:2 emails

John and I got an agent. It paid off to look in Europe. You can check out his website. His name is Dr. Smith. click on "francais" and "interlocuteur" and you can see a picture of him. I think he kind of looks like me. The contract was in German so I had it translated into English. John and I had some suggested edits, and he was ok with them. We just Fed Ex'd the signed contract to him today. He wants to try to get something going at the London Book Fair later this month. His agency read the whole manuscript and made some suggested changes that were right on target. (free of charge)

I'm sorry for not communicating. I feel bad because I just do not want to go back to what we were doing before. I ordered glass pots/pans and boil my own artichokes now and make baby spinach. They were all out at Henry's the other night so I thought maybe you had been there before me!

I miss the wonderful times at your place, but I just don't want to go back to the way things were. I hope we can continue to communicate and see each other sometime in the future.

You have so much stress in your life. I feel as though I was constantly trying to help make it go away. As soon as I was away from that, I felt a lot better. I don't want to be wrapped up in your stress anymore. I work hard. I like being 40. I feel as though I really don't have any stress in my life - other than going to my sister's wedding in April.

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

J.
P.S P.S. I got a new toilet. It's really nice. Push button action, no lever. No float mechanism. The new toilets don't use them anymore. The toilet seat is for some reason on back order so I have the old toilet seat for now. Very exciting to be a homeowner! :)


My answer:


You only LIVED while you were with me.

You only became a person and a lover while you were with me-you could not even maintain an erection when I met you, could not reach orgasm if I made the slightest move! And look at you now-the total opposite.

You only experienced love and it healed so much in you, when you were with me.

You only felt appreciated when you were with me (your words).

You are so damaged and scared that you want the assurance of complete lack of stress-such as you can find in an empty home, loving the female images on a screen, double-glazed windows, and a push-button toilet, not real persons.


You needed friendship, patience, encouragement, and hope, and you thrived when I gave it to you, but you choose not to give it back in the same large measure you received it. You were accepted by me when you were fussy, unaffectionate, complaining about noises, birds, lumps on my bed, leaving and going to your home due to these things, stressed from your job, considering leaving it, new positions, turning your head away so as not to kiss me, stressed on Sundays due to having to work on Monday.
Do you think I was accepting these behaviors from you without feeling any stress? Did you even care?

You were accepted by me when you were a recluse and refused to go anywhere, even to buy your own food, canceling out of anywhere you had agreed to go with me. I was going out to buy you food, and telling you "It's OK not to go to Maria's Christmas party, I'd rather be here with you".
I accepted you talking in detail about drivers that looked at you funny on the freeway or in your underground parking, or cut in front of you, without making you feel stupid for having these weird concerns and reactions to others. You think this talk was not stressful to me?

You were accepted by me when you talked about the strangest things I've ever heard, your out-of-body experiences and meetings with spirits, seeing your head spinning on the TV, without being made to feel like a hallucinating schizophrenic.

You were accepted back after you treated me worse than a stranger, leaving me to sit alone at the wedding dinner on the boat, and you had the gall to call me "socially inept" and a "recluse", in spite of the fact that everyone saw YOUR poor manners and your treatment of your own guest there. And how stressful was for me seeing your crazy behavior: Calling me "socially inept" and a recluse' in the SAME EMAIL that you were offering to come over watch a movie!!!!!!!!! It never even occurred to you to appreciate the RESPECT with which I treated all your peculiarities.

I would have stuck with you if you had no job, if you were down, if you were ill or injured. Would it have been stressful to me? Yes, but I loved you and I am not a fair-weather-only lover.
Did it ever occur to you that love means "give and take"? You're very good at "taking", and only "giving" what requires little or no effort from you.
You do not deserve a loving, approving, creative, live woman like me. You "take" as if it is "owed' to you.

The very first night you spent with me, as I was getting up to go to the bathroom you said in your sleep,"Please don't leave me!".

You hate yourself and your human needs, and you've managed to build such a wall of denial around them, but they are there, and what's worse, YOUR MIND KNOWS THEM and asks in sleep "Please don't leave me!".

You are so fragile you cannot own up to doing anything wrong-and you blast me or banish me if I point it out to you.
You choose to go on living a useless life dedicated to isolating yourself from anything unpleasant- by cutting out the only person that has consistently loved, approved, and helped you in your life. By denying me the right to be "down", stressed, unavailable, human, disagreeable on occasion, but reserving it for yourself.

I loved you for all the good things you were, and gladly overlooked everything else, but you choose not to love me that way.

I wrote you a respectful and loving 2-page letter asking for honest dialogue, which I sent you with the book I returned to you, and you ignored it completely-how graceless. You had written in your profile that "being magnanimous was the sign of character....". Riiight!
You don't even have the decency to TELL ME that you are breaking up with me, after 4 1/2 years. You can't even find the balls to write my name in your last email-you are a wimp. When you treat someone you spent 4 1/2 years with like trash, all you show is that you see yourself as trash.
Your last email, breaking up with me and talking about toilets and artichokes as if they were of ANY importance to me, was like a mental patient's ramblings-I was embarrassed for you. You are self-centered enough to think that a woman you are breaking up with gives a damn about your toilet and your baby spinach. You write about the toilet and artichokes and our break up as being just
as important. Well, if these 3 things are in the same order of importance to you, my time would be much better spent reading a magazine than being with you.
You are strong and smart enough to be able to be helped much from therapy, instead of just staying an automaton that "works hard" as you say.

No, I cannot understand where you are coming from: Such an undignified, self-centered, insecure, cowardly place is not known to me.

You wrote the words below in a moment of sanity.......
Monday, February 03, 2003 8:49 PM

I hate you...

for making me feel like a little boy...
*
for making me want to cuddle up with you...
*
for taking me to a higher level... and keeping me there...
*
for making me think...
*
for making me understand more about myself...
*
for the kitties...
*
for the plants...
*
for the movies...
*
for all the encouragement and hope and patience...

J.


Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz....I am moritified how this guy can just mention he is breaking it off in such an off-hand way..right along with news of his toilet and cookware.

I don't have any advice....I have seen you help quite a few people here in the past, and I know that you know how to handle this. I just wanted to say I am sorry that someone was so careless with your heart...and so inconsiderate of your feelings.

Needless to say....you deserve better.

I could not help but smile-I used the word "disjointed" in my own assessment of his letter.

I slept pretty well, because I sent that letter, as I am sure you can understand, and I marvel at how different I can be when I harbor NO desire to resume a relationship, vs. wanting to BOTH confront the man, AND do it in such a way as to make it possible for him to come back.

I got the idea to write him that letter seeing my own reaction to his:
Even though it was such a pitiful and crazy break up letter, the content and manner of it upset me more than the essence (break up) of it.
So, I thought, there is no way he can ignore a letter from me, even if he never replies, ever.
I know he read it, because we have the same ISP, and I sent it "receipt requested"-I received the 'read' receipt.
Even if he hit "delete' after reading the first few lines, those first few lines would be very disturbing, for any man, and more so for him.

One reason I posted these here, is to back up my motto "doormats are unsexy". Another is to tell you all that stating in clear terms what is on our mind, has a most therapeutic effect when someone treats us badly. I feel a lot better today than I did yesterday.

And I more than ever believe I have reached that sane point, where 'no relationship' is better for me than a bad relationship.
I feel no anxiousness to get another boyfriend as I had felt with evry break-up in my past.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

P.S. I fortified myself while I was writing, with 6 (!) Klondike Original- a box- ice cream bars-the one and only indulgence I had during all of this.
:p

Good news is, is that your next partner will have no trouble following THAT act.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Your response was brilliant and I was not surprised to see you say later in this thread that you slept well and felt better having written it.

Sadly, a guy like that is not likely to either reflect much on it or use it to his better-meant.

You are clearly too much woman for him!

Hi Marcy...he will at least flinch :)
I don't care if he reflects on it for one minute, for long, or if it improves him-whatever he does from this moment on, is as irrelevant to me as what he did before I ever met him.

I lost all respect for him as a man-I see him as a "patient", as a " high-functioning mental patient"....not a turn on at all!

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

I lost all respect for him as a man-I see him as a "patient", as a " high-functioning mental patient"....not a turn on at all!

LMFAO

That is too good!

When we want to get rid of unwanted admirers, we can send them a note combining our feelings for them/artichokes and baby spinach/details about our model of toilet.

I would bet it will work as well as that bug-killer...RAID.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz I am sorry that you went through this, but Im so glad youre feeling good about things and have gotten rid of this inconsiderate and hurtful person in your life in strength and style. Youre a strong lady and I admire you! (((HUGS)))

By the way Blondie , this was great:
Don't waste any more of your time thinking about that person. Symbolically flush HIM down the toilet, and good luck.

http://www.gifs.net/animate/kilroile.gif

There he is now!

Very perseptive Sally.

You're right watching the artichokes, but the toilet will be the deal breaker-a new push-button toilet may be your replacement :)

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

I thank you all warmly, everyone who answered me or even read my post. I knew it would be possible for me to post something of my own here someday-it felt like home.

You made me laugh, and you made me envious of how well you saw stuff, especially how he "padded" his breakup message in nonsense, to avoid, avoid, avoid......

It is always so hard when I am faced with people that are so different from me...more needy, less honest...you know....I keep acting as if most good people are like me...non-users, real friends, "bonded"... it's so jarrng to my psyche to know full well than "here goes another damaged being in an angelic form".....
I'm very sad, but it's because I know it is over, there is no attempt at getting back together that can ever succee. I have lost all respect for him and his mental faculties, and when I hear my own thoughts ridiculing him, I know I can never get back with him-a good thing.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Dang... I could have written your email response to several people but never did.

Wow, I am in awe.... and so sorry.

Originally posted by sally
I was fascinated how he slipped his comments in, as if they were subliminal messages, amongst the domestic minutiae.

I was wondering if he was speaking in code. :rolleyes:

Almeiraz, I am so sorry that things turned out this way, but as Shewolf said, this will turn out to be a good thing for you because someone deserving of you is out there.

He had sent me this email in October:


Saturday, October 04, 2003 11:11 AM

Subject: My nightmare

Yesterday at work I was very high. I had taken a couple of heaping scoops of fresh new protein and was really up. I was singing Elvis songs, joking around with everybody, getting all my work done, trying to stay ahead of the game.

The day before, I was overwhelmed, but I had a plan for Friday to get my work done.

Friday started, and my plan quickly disappeared because I had so much new stuff hit my desk. But I was up and attacked everything, not letting anything bother me.

I heard that Lila had a dr. visit Thursday, then had emergency surgery Friday to close the cervix or something.

I was full of energy. I kept getting bombarded. Doug is on vacation. Sally is leaving for 6 weeks. Lila is out indefinitely. The cases have gotten much worse.

In the late afternoon, Sally warned me about losing my high and coming down in the evening. I laughed at her and gave my best impersonation of the former radioman, Wolfman Jack and gave a little howl. She looked skeptical.

I probably would have been right, but then an idiot insured had to report a new loss to me at 4:00 p.m., and suddenly everything started to turn. Everything began to spiral down. All my energy - that had been high all day - began to disappear - completely. All my enthusiasm was gone and I hated that place. I worked until 6:00 p.m. to try and get prepped for Monday.

I got home. From my car, I look over at my place and saw that my door and screen were finally fixed - after over a month of patience. I approached my place and was stunned by the trash that'd moved in underneath me. The stench already coming from their place and wafting up to my front door was ridiculous.

I just wanted to get away and relax over at your place.

The work you've done over at your place is incredible. I am very impressed. But I felt as though I were walking into a hospital. Whatever you used to clean your kitchen reminded me of a hospital ward. The TV made me numb.

All these months while work has been going on at your place, I knew that I just wanted to put those boards back up once the rain gutter was back in place - because I was worried about CC's safety.

If you want to dig into the past, we had two kitties when I was a kid, named Lucy and Linus. One time, my mom and my sister and I were leaving the house to go to the grocery store. My sister wasn't paying any attention and Linus ran out, right into the street. A car didn't bother to stop and ran him over. His head was crushed.

Before elementary school, we had a cat named Daisy. She was always having kittens. When I was older, I learned that my mom simply drove her out into the country one day and left her.

One time in 3rd grade we got a cat from the shelter and named him Pumpkin Pie. A week later we went to my grandma's house for a holiday. Pumpkin Pie was put in the basement at her house. He got into some rat poison and died on the way home. We buried him behind the house.

In high school we had a cat named Molly. She was always getting into heat and making this awful screaching sound. I was fed up one day and drove her out to the country and simply left her. To this day, the abandoned look on her face still very much disturbs me.

We had 3 cats. My sister and I one night drove two of them out to the country and abandoned them. It was ridiculous. The one we kept was called Cubbie. Finally, my mom and sister figured out to just get her spaded. For the first time, some common sense was generated in my family, such that I did not have to try to solve everybody's problems on my own.

I was concerned about your kitty's safety. You were so adamant about not using the boards that I felt totally helpless. CC walked right out onto the rain gutter in front of me. I was literally going to collapse. Also, it seems you could leave maybe one of the plants down off the side so he could jump up there instead of walking the railing so much.

Now my mom and sister have things figured out. My mom loves her her cats, and has had them over 10 years. My sister's cats have been around for over 15 years. But the pain and frustration and guilt while growing up is still very strong - it is all centered around cats. A big reason why I didn't want you to get any pets in the first place.

You are right about things in the past.... but last night felt like being in a hospital, and I had no choice but to go home.

Last week you were very stressed out and I showed no understanding. Last night, I was very stressed out. You showed understanding, but needed more information. I hope this additional information helps.

I hope my new neighbors' bandsaw isn't on all day.

I still feel really strange today. The feeling really started to kick in as I got home from work yesterday. I need time to adjust to the new neighbors. I was exhausted last night, and rest is good. I'm starting to feel better now - at noon - but the echo of last night is still lingering.

I hope you can be patient with me during this time. The pressure at work - I can only discribe it as all-encompassing and unrelenting. I need to get a bad file taken care of by 10/14. But I have so many bad cases popping up all over the place. Still, I think things will improve at work after 10/14.

Thanks,

J.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

You are amazing to get to the anger phase so quickly. I usually sulk and blame myself for a bit at first. The anger comes only after I completely fall apart.

Good for you. But I'm not surprised. Your advice has been helpful and particularly to me when I posted about Greg and myself.

Some guys can be such louts. (I may have made up that word).

Take care of you. Get it all out here.

Cindy

Was on our second date. He planned it all, came and picked me up, nicely dressed and so pleased and excited. I looked just GREAT. He took me to the most expensive French restaurant, where we never stopped talking, drinking wine, and enjoying each other.

BUT....when we arrived there, he opened my car door, closed it, and then started walking towards the entrance, away from me and ahead of me.

This is something I beat myself up about:

Why didn't I say anything about how I noticed it, how it made me feel, ask why he did it.
How many times I let small, akward things slide, lost in the attraction, attention, politeness, humor, emails and phone calls from him.

Was his body language telling me his limitations?
Was I seeing a "picture" of a set up between us, like 'together but very separate"? Or like, "I want your company, your beauty, your attention, your body, your brain, your words, but not you'.


Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

i dont really think its cool, that when we are mad we can jusifably post old lovers personal letters to us for strangers to read, look i have gotten involved and married some nut jobs, but I picked them, I have to take responsibility for getting with the guys of my past, we are not hapless victims when it comes to relationships, i watch my male and female friends fall for people who obviously have issues and then watch my friends (after the rose is off the bloom) start to notice they areare envolved with weird people, its like this, if you get with a nut, it is a little unfair to the nut, for us to expect that they should all of a sudden get normal.

take care, kitty.

Please do not hesitate to write whatever you think!!!

Don't hold back, ok?

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

My dearest J.,


I'm writing this with trepidation as it feels that I only have one shot, and with hope that you will receive it as it was intended, with love.

I love you J., and I think you are a very special man, and a very special person, whom I want in my life very much.

I admire you greatly as I have often told you....You have great courage, and power to marshal all your resources when you want to achieve a certain result. And you aim high: Success. I admire you and it so surprised me that you were able to make huge strides and overcome learned ways of looking at things that only served to make you unhappy. You were able to quickly let go of a mind set that was not yours, but your mother's, very soon after we talked about it and it came into your awareness. Now you go out shopping and driving as if it was never a problem....things don't get you down and make you sleep many hours of the day...you have energy that was not there often when we first met.

It is this incredible ability to heal you have… that gives me the hope I have.

I can very honestly say that my one and only BIG problem with you is that you have kept leaving and going home within a few minutes of any unpleasantness.
The more it happened, the more resentful and worried I became, and it spilled-as always-to other seemingly unrelated areas. It made me afraid that you didn't love me enough or that it could not change for the better.
It made me feel very tired inside, wanting to go to sleep each time....as if the weight and pressure of your anger was physically bearing down on me...

I think this was because I didn't know what to do.....I couldn't see clearly how I could help change it, except keeping my mouth shut. But that's no real solution, because a couple must be able to express themselves to each other.
There is a good way and a bad way to do this, as there is a good way and a bad way to receive it. I felt lost in addressing the anger you showed me each time-all I knew was "he's like I was when I was very young....when I didn't know WHAT I felt...when I wasn't even aware of my wounds....and just acted it out...". And you often mentioned "I blew up at so-and-so attorney"...which made me think it was your most familiar way to deal with something that upset you. I don’t blame you. You went through a very hard growing up period, even harder for you because you are sensitive and good, and you coped with it as you could. I have empathy and compassion for you.

I will be very frank: At first, I used to have to THINK even about touching my leg to your leg in bed, early in the morning.....I was afraid to do it....it was a risk...I was so conscious of your "don't get close to me" unspoken messages. I felt rejected and hurt many times when you would leave for work without a kiss.....I knew that unless things changed fast, I would not be able to continue seeing you.

I cared enough, but it was the disclosures you made that helped me love you, and treat you in the way that allowed you to open up and start being so affectionate and cuddly with me:
You told me that you were never appreciated, so I decided to tell you anything and everything I liked and appreciated about you. You told me that criticism was the big pain of your life, so I tried to be very careful and not criticize the way you were, just the way you were with ME sometimes.
It proved effective....you revealed the most affectionate, sexual, cuddly man I could ever want. The potential you showed me is incredible. I never expected such a total change, and it makes me hopeful now.
So....when I thought the right thing and treated you the right way, you responded in a splendid fashion. Only because you were clear with me about what you needed from me though....It wasn’t because I’m some angel that I treated you this way…it was an act of will, a decision I made, born of love and caring for you. But I don't know the right way to guide us to truly honest communication....I need your help……

You have learned a way to respond to the "feminine" when she is negative towards you, with anger and distancing. It was, after all, the only way you could have, since you couldn't very well sever all relationship with your own mother-you were living together... You have not learned to talk about what you feel, because there was no one there who was interested and loving.

I have not learned how to respond to the "masculine" either-my dad was a shadow figure in my life, fortunately a loving one. We had no day-to-day dealings. There was no one interested in what I thought or how I felt, and I have difficulty doing it now, even though it feels awfully good! But I do treat the ‘masculine’ kindly, true to my earliest years…
I have learned that I must pay attention to what I need, as much as what you need.
That what happened in our past is useful to explain the "why" in the present.
That insight into the past doesn't help much.
That what is needed is "we-sight": Looking forward, learning the effective ways of relating to each other, is about time that can be spent building rather than ripping down a relationship.

Wonderful relationships are not accidental or magical: These people have had models that demonstrated to them good relating, either in their parents or in good counseling. We two have not had this advantage....It is out there though, and all we have to do is make use of it, for our benefit and happiness. All the studies about happy couples keep repeating the same quote from these blessed people: "good conflict resolution", not "absence of conflict".

I see you as an adult, not a little boy, and that is the truth. I would not ask for this type of help from a little boy; I am asking it from a man that I have seen has huge stores of love, intelligence, will, and spirit. I only see you as a little boy when you stomp about and rush off in a huff.....and I am not enough of an adult to know what to do, but with your help, I know I can.

I have thought much and missed you much in these weeks that have gone by...I've been angry, and loving, and all the possible feelings in-between...I've had very bad nights, and hours where my throat hurt from trying not to cry....
I’d like us to be so secure in our relationship, that we can recognize easily that we are just human, and that sometimes we’ll be frazzled and speak out of frustration with things, or plain stress or overwork. I know and you know it happens…remember how frazzled you were when I wasn’t eager to put the cardboard outside for C.C? And how I express myself bluntly when I’ve had a glass of wine? It’s cruel to expect the other person to always be perfect…It is probably the most relaxing thing to be able to say “You know baby, I’m tense today”….. It gives notice and warning to the other person…that calming behaviors and tolerance will be in order.

I have no other wish than each of us take care of the other when we need it. That each of us feels free to ask for what they need….it is so lovely to hear “I need you to watch a movie holding me in your arms…” or “I need you to hear me without offering solutions…” or “It upsets me when you do this or that…”…whatever. I’d love for us to have this freedom and assertiveness between us…

Would you like to re-visit our relationship and work out the kinks "together" with me?
If so, would you please call and let me know?

You are my precious love, and my chance to learn this life lesson; I so hope I am the same for you.....

A.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

I am out of that relationship. I dealt with it all by myself for over 4 years, and I can't not talk about it anymore. If it's not cool, I'd be ok with someone deleting the thread. But his letters could have been written by anybody, and I would not have a problem if anyone posted a letter of mine, as long as my identity was protected, as his is.
I want to learn something from this!

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz, it really hurts, doesn't it, when you put so much into a relationship and the other person responds like that (or worse, doesn't even bother to respond). You must feel so lonely right now. Just remind yourself over and over again that you deserve someone who will treat you better, someone who you won't have to feel that you have to work hard to get them to love you enough.

I hope that you will be feeling better soon - it's so much easier to get over the pain when you keep reminding yourself of all the things he did that made you mad. Many years ago I learned that if I allowed myself to feel the anger that I had at a certain guy who suddenly left me without warning, the sadness/depression disappeared. Every time that I started to get sad thinking about him, I'd force myself to remember all the things I didn't like about it or that had made me upset about him....it helped me a lot.

Let us know how you're doing. It's good that you have friends here at Ageless who you can talk to about all of this that you're going through. It makes it more bearable, I think.

You make me laugh...

What a night....he called -still calling-40 times, I told him "go to he-l" the first time and did not answer again. Had been drinking-Calling me a b---h and talking about his new toilet and laughing, saying "I never want to talk to you again, pick up the phone so I can tell you that I'll never speak to you again".
Came over, rang the bell, I did not answer, and whispered to my kitty from outside the window, and tried to pet her from ouside the screen...
He's like a teenager, obsessive, and in normal times, perfect. My letter must have cut deep...too bad!
I truly believe he's not normal, but I'm not clear what personality disorder he has. The time came for me to expect him to be an adult, he was not, and I'm out

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Wow, he DOES sound like he has a mental disorder. I think unless he's treated for it, he'll never be capable of having a relationship anyway. We know one thing, don't give that man a cat!:D Sorry, just trying to lighten it up a little. One thing I found strange, was the comment he made about your kitchen smelling like a hospital, and his having to "get out"! Has he been in mental hospitals? If he has, it probably wasn't a pleasant experience for him.

Almeiraz, you are so very intelligent and articulate, and it's apparent you know a lot about the human psyche. I read his letters and then yours, and it's like apples and oranges, they're so very different! I doubt he can even comprehend yours, you're miles above him. I have noticed that people who have experience and knowledge about mental disorders tend to be the ones to take on someone "high maintenance", like J, because they think they can "fix" the person. Did you think you could fix J? I think he'd need years and years of therapy and probably medication. He doesn't sound well.

It's good that you're at the point where you're comfortable walking away from this. Your life will no doubt get better and happier as you heal from him. You gave all you could, and you did your best, way beyond what most women would have done. I hope your next relationship is with a man who equals your intelligence and your capacity to be loving and giving. You deserve that, nothing less.

Almeiraz, when I first responded, quite honestly, I wanted to say the kinds of things that kittylane and zeph have said. But, I was afraid that if I did, I would hurt your feelings or make you feel reluctant to vent.

But, you did say that you accept all comments. So, now after reading kitty and zeph's responses, I want to say that I also agree that we have to take some personal responsibility in "bad" relationships. I am a perfect example. I made two extremely poor choices in husbands, although now, my 2nd husband and I are friends. But, me being a caretaker, tried to fix him. I really felt that by doing so that I was being a supportive partner. However, I never seemed to learn that lesson. It took me several years of self-examination to get to the point where I could admit this to myself. I had just as much a role to play in our break up as he did because I did not take care of me and I tried to fix him when he didn't want to be fixed.

Only wanted to add that note, but I want you to know that my heart does go out to you. I am so sorry that you are hurting so much right now. Continue to vent if you want. This is what this place is all about.

Then, of all the advice and feedback you are given, take what you need and leave the rest. :)

When are we women going to comprehend a simple rule of thumb, that we cannot be responsible for the happiness of our partners. We are only responsible for ourselves.

And because he writes about pots and toliets, why does that make him mental...those are his feelings, he's obviously trying to work through something...therefore, why do we devalue his feelings because we're trying to support the person that was X.

When couples break up, it is sad, but the responsibility does lay on both as we're constantly reminded that it takes two to built a good relationship, so does it take two to break it up. all that stuff about his orgasm...holy macroni...what a way to punch a hole into a man's mentality, especially men who have the most fragile of egos...you know, they are just as self conscious of their appearance/sexuality/characteristics as we are. No wonder he came pounding at your door...if he's so mental be careful, you could wake up one morning and find a horse's head (or maybe your cat's) in your bed.

But worse off, both of you wasted each other's time for 4 years while you were trying to fix him...you both could've been in other more productive relationships if you've recognize the position you both were building up within the relationship. I wish you luck, because being X is not a good place to be...but having said that, you will get over this, you will grow strong, and hopefully you both have learn and grown to be the kind of men and women you want to be.

Paris

I think it's fine to let it rip. I think it is healthy. And I also believe that Alm... will get to a point of more neutrality when she is feeling better.

The different stages of grief require some dirty laundry and cleansing.

Everything I've ever read from A. tells me she will surely shore up to her end of the deal later when she is done reeling from the shock and pain of rejection. It's a natural reaction.

Man oh man, he called 40 times and came over!! He is a poop. But the fact that he was drinking and some other post here indicated he had been high before - so is he problematic in his drinking? in his getting high stuff?

Apparently this guy doesn't have coping mechanisms in place and has to seek chemical strategies to overcome life's issues. Very bad sign.

I do have to agree with the above posters who asked why you stayed that long. When you get to the point of seeing your contribution in this mess, I imagine you will reflect on your choices. Four years is way too long for someone who demonstrated that crap to such an awesome individual as yourself.

Heal
Cindy

Paris, surely you must agree that the guy's e-mail does not sound as if it's coming from a rational, prudent mind? Come on, he tells her he doesn't want to go back to what they had and in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE tells her he bought new pots. It's almost like he's trying to gloss over the part that he's breaking up with her.

Personally, I think the guy is an utter, complete coward. Any guy who would break up with me by e-mail is NEVER going to hear from me again. What you wrote Al was very good, but I would not even have thought he warranted that much time from me if he had broken up with me by e-mail.

Maybe this goes to my belief that everyone should be responsible and accountable for their actions and hiding behind an e-mail and not having the balls to tell someone something that important in person is downright ****ty and that's all there is to it.

You deserve a better person than that . . . we all do . . . I'm just sorry you had to lose so much time to this person before you found that out. At our age, every day we lose, whether it's wasted on the wrong person or arguing with the right person, is a day we can't go back and make up. I don't want to waste any of the days I have left. I plan to live them to the fullest. Now you can start doing that too. Time to forge ahead with the rest of your life!

Geeeesh!
Any man that broke up with me in an email
and then leaves a "PS" mentioning hid dandy new toilet-
would be on my "Dog-do List" for a long time to come!!
I doubt I would have even responded
to an email like that.

I am so very sorry Almeiraz that
you are struggling with this.
My comment above might come across as
un-caring, but I do care.
I think the man has, well...issues big time.
I know how easy it is to be drawn into
people like this and as women,
we try putting together that perplexing "puzzle'-
trying to figure it all out and fix it.
Well, there are some people and relationships
that we cannot fix and we need
to learn how to walk away.

Peachy is right-
we need to not waste precious time
on toxic relationships or ridiculous arguements.

Sounds to me like you were there
when he needed someone and now that
he doesn't need you-
he is moving on to pots and pans
and other trivial things.
You don't want to be on that list of what
is trivial in his life.
Time to move on and time to put
yourself first.

also...keep in mind Emerson's quote, "A wise man knows that love overcomes all odds..." He was only in love with himself...or he was not in love at all...and of course the scriptures, "Don't throw your pearls before swine..."
Hadley

Well Peachy, that i couldn't figure out...except that's like breaking up with someone in person, you might make a offhand joke (a bad one at that) that doesn't have anything to do with the breakup but you're trying to lightening the situation as best you can. Remember, men and women think totally different, just because this guy runs a business doesn't mean he has a clue how to play out his personal relationships. But it doesn't make him mental...or it would label her too for sticking it out for 4 years.

I should've said, that I too agree that breaking up by email sucks on his part, but al's email got her the exact reaction she expect ...the fact that he might have come over under the influence just goes to show his inability for coping, she been with this man 4 years, she couldn't figure this out, it was a dangerous game to play in these times of you don't know who's working with all their marbles...we all have our moments where we don't make good choices...i wouldn't have send a response to his email as much as gotten in his face and told him how the email made me feel. After 4 years she deserves to be told face to face, but with the onset of technology of computers and faxes, it becomes more convient for the authors of Dear Johns/Janes to hide more and not have to deal with difficult situations, unfortunately or to send a response.

The truth of the matter is, everything was not done in the best of form, but its time to move on. Its not working, communication has been broken, no more wasting time. they both should get past this and find happiness somewhere else. Valauble lessons were learn and now its time to regroup and move on.

paris

I put it all together in my mind before I got up this morning. I have no doubts or questions or pain anymore:
J. is made up of two parts:
The emotional and the cognizant (practical)
His emotional part is about 8 yrs old. This is my objective opinion, not any sour grapes.A child psychologist would more accurately pinpoint his emotional age.
His practical part has continued to grow up and be almost "life appropriate' and almost "age appropriate".
His behavior does not pose danger to me: His rational part always makes sure he has his seat belt on and doesn't make any noise, or get arrested.
As long as the needs of the 8 year old are met, ( a safe peaceful environment, no stress, no rejection, no criticism, soothing behaviors, NO SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS ABOUT EMOTIONS OR COMMITMENTS) he responds almost appropriately.
When these needs are not met, plus when he faces overt rejection (my last email to him and "Go to hell"), he decompensates-gets right in the place of an 8 yr old left alone in a dark house, rejected and abandoned, and starts crying and hitting the walls in despair.
The kitties are age-appropriate for him in terms of emotions: He caresses them and talks sweetly to them, and they purr and raise their little heads in pleasure, looking at him, sitting on his lap. They don't ask anything of him, they can't critique him, they don't reject him, they don't run away. I had a thought that J., as good as he is at his job, if he had the kitties in his home, he would be complete. He could get and give the level and type of love he needs and is capable of.

It was making me crazy not being able to label him with certainty:
His practical part is so well developed that in many things "carries" the emotional part with it, so he is sure to call if he's late for example.
A friend said to me yesterday:

[ You are incredibly intelligent and I think it is your superior rationality that drives him crazy. I think you need a healthier type of challenge in your life. Adult relationships include stress. He has the expectations of a child in an adult relationship and then hates that he relies on you to be a nurturing figure in his life. He is blaming you for providing the lap he loves to crawl into. ]
All his careful, compulsive behaviors, cleanliness, vegetarianism, organization, planning all his practical things like trips, work, etc, attention to even his fingernails, are attempts to control what happens to him, and to take care of himself.]

He was not unloving or indifferent or a jerk when he distanced, stayed silent, or got up and left to go home-he was an 8 yr old blindly looking for his comfort spot. He CANNOT carry out an adult discussion on feelings, and instead of saying "I don't understand any of these things" he says " I need space" or "I don't want to go back where things were".
He PAPAGALIZES phrases that he knows will produce the desired effect, ie. "I need a little space, we need a break" when what he means is " You seem unhappy with me, and I don't understand why, I don't know what I should be doing, this makes me uncomfortable, I'm going back home where it's safe, I'M OK!!!". Reminds me of a child smacking his mother's arm when she takes a fun toy away from him-that's the level t which I sense his anger and '*****, *****, *****' are.

While he knows I love and like him, it keeps him feeling strong-he can then do the rejecting from that safe spot he' sitting at. But when he's faced with overt rejection from that mother figure, then the terror sets in and the mother figure is '*******, *******. *******!".

Unbelievable....but I am certain. His emotional needs are set at such a young level, that's why they are so free of real rejection or real love, as WE know these two things.


Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

dang I don't feel so sick now, Almeriaz your posts always made me feel psychologically inferior because you are so totally together, but guess what, you are made of the same stuff I am.

Yes, Swan! Just because I have good thinking sometimes, that can help OTHERS, I am not emotionall "adult" or mature either!!:)

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Originally posted by Almeiraz
...The kitties are age-appropriate for him in terms of emotions: He caresses them and talks sweetly to them, and they purr and raise their little heads in pleasure, looking at him, sitting on his lap. They don't ask anything of him, they can't critique him, they don't reject him, they don't run away. ...
Hm, maybe my emotional age is not that much older then, considering that I tend to prefer animals over people most of the time ;)

Anyway, Alm, sorry to see you're hurting and having to end this chapter after quite a significant time; I am sure you are gonna look into each of your roles that contributed to this, but in the meantime, be good to yourself :)

*hug*
C.

PS: Just confirms my opinion that "projects" don't work in relationships ;) I only ever dated one guy with "potential" - taught me a valuable lesson about the fact that the "potentials" will never live up to "it" ;) since then I have focused on the "right here and in" type of guys ;) - no change management required :)

have noticed that people who have experience and knowledge about mental disorders tend to be the ones to take on someone "high maintenance", like J, because they think they can "fix" the person. Did you think you could fix J?

Not exactly: I only formed the bulk of my opinion about him regarding something being wrong, late, and especially recently. All I had seen from the beginning were just 'physical' signs and I did not realize any of his infant-like need for a mother figure.
I DID NOT KNOW, AT LEAST CONSCIOUSLY!

I knew he had not had relationships of substance, and he had been with a very critical woman, and I thought, I will do now what I never did before-praise everything that deserves praise in him, and express in words everything I like about him. I did it both for him, and for me to try and overcome a shyness about expressing my praise and attraction to a man. I had always held that back because I felt it made me look "hungry" or manipulative, or insincere.
J. little by little became SO affectionate, and his progress was so big, that it fooled me. But, at no time was I able to answer my own question ['Is he a man who would push your wheelchair if you were in one? Who will visit you in the hospital daily?"]-with a "YES' and my uncertainty there made me careful with my feelings-that's why I have not been wracked with any deep pain etc.
I am writing this now and I feel like I am charting on a patient.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeirez,

About 4 years ago I was courted vigilantly by a guy who seemed absolutely perfect in the beginning. Dr Jeckle, Mr Hyde. We dated, and moved in with each other. Long story short, he was suffering from a well disguised Personality Disorder....NPD....which frankly sounds a bit like your guy.

The main clues are the intolerance of criticism or normal relationship-type demands, the child-like emotional capacity, the self-obsession and complete lack of empathy displayed in his break-up letter.

Also, his obsessive/stalking response to abandonment is a common symptom too. I felt disturbed when you wrote that he kept calling and then visiting your home, with the sole intention of degrading and belittling you. Heck, you've already been discarded as casually as dirty toilet tissue.

I strongly recommend that you look into NPD for yourself. If J is an NPD sufferer, then unless he's got a new supply of unconditional love, this is not going to be a clean break. For NPD sufferers, this kind of `casual discarding of the lover' tactic is not about wanting to move on. Its about crushing the spirit of the partner to the point where they will accept any level of abuse, and make no demands of their own.

I found a lot of valuable information at thie site below:
http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/npd

Please look into this, Almeirez. Breaking up from an NPD sufferer is really tough and can be made a lot easier when you knw whats going on and why.

I really hope this is not whats going on for you, but please find out fir sure.

Please be emotionally free, safe and strong!!

like a classic paranoid schizophrenic....and that is genetic and only medicine can curb it...it is not curable...H.

wow lotta sickos out there, I wonder what category I fit into?

I'm sure there is one that would fit.

What if you stopped being a "good mother" and were an equal, adult to adult?

Each time I did, he got up and went home. Until I heard his messgaes last night, I never realized hoe YOUNG OF A CHILD he is emotionally. I never did!
I was never able to get enough data from him to "evaluate" him, until last night. It was-he is-something I've had NO idea about-never thought anyone can be like this, AS WELL AS a competent office worker who makes over 100K/year, deals with lawyers and judges, etc.
I was only able to "evaluate" him based on the extend of my knowledge and experience.
And, Zeph, the low blows I dealt him in my last email, were indeed low blows-they were things I had NEVER told him before, and were in that last email to him, because this was my break up letter to him.

I was not intending to protect his feelings, ego, psyche anymore: I was bringing closure by stating the truth about how I assessed what had taken part in our more than 4 years together. I did not care if he would be hurt, or if he would ever speak to me again. I had stopped taking 'care' of him in every way when I wrote the email.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

In catching up with all the posts in this
thread, I am reminded of the feelings of loss that comes
in helping wounded doves mend their broken wings.
Yes, when they need us,
and we have the opportunity to heal and nurture,
we smile at ourselves, feel useful and are fullfilled.
Eventually,
the wing heals completely and the dove
must fly away-
or be caged and restrained from it's own natural
instinct to fly and be free, (away from us).

As women, we need to learn to spot
these "wounded doves" from afar and quit bringing
them home to tend do-
as when they finally gain their strength and
have the power to spread those wings,
we are left gazing up into an open sky wondering
and waiting for our "dove" to fly back home.
OR
we resist letting our dove fly away and cling on tightly
only to end up with a miserable dove indeed.

The analogy might be corny,
but I feel that it brings to light the way
that many of us women tend to
carry home men that are,
for a variety of reasons, wounded emotionally,
(those broken wings), and then when they have
fully recovered and want to leave us-
we crumble and feel totally "used".

My days of bringing home the "emotionally
wounded man" are over.
(Believe me, I have tended to my share).

It reminds me of an alcoholic sobering up finally.
You work your hind-end off trying to get the alcoholic
to put down the booze and when they finally do-
you don't like the person that they are.
They change.
They blow you off to attend AA meetings all the time
and make new friends and do things
that don't include you.
You begin to resent the alcoholic's sobriety
and might even "secretly" wish that they start
drinking again....

Taking on with men that need "emotional alterations"
is a worthy task in the beginning.
It gives us lots to do with idle hands and time-
but are we emotionally secure and solid enough to
let them go when they have fully evolved and
decide to expand their horizons,
(that might not include us)?

We expect to toss our children out of the nest-
but we don't need the "Man/Child" in our life to
raise and toss out too.

In these situations,
as sad as it is to admit-
we have only ourselves to blame

Sage,

Why do you think an emotionally wounded guy who finds love and healing wih a good woman would naturally want to leave her when hes on the path of recovery? I appreciate the dove analogy, but men are humans and I don't quite get why their basic need for love and a mate would change because they are happier, more loved, and safe. The analogy almost implies that emotional health is incompatible with couple bonding, although I know youre getting at something more complex and deeper than that.

Do you think theres something a women can do to accommodate a mate who is in recovery, without falling into the traps associated with resisting his recovery? It makes sense that, say, a recovering alcoholic will have some different emotional needs, but surely they're not necessarily THAT different.....he still needs love, he still needs companionship, a stable home etc. At what point does gratitude for support turn to resentment or abandonment? Maybe some men leave because the women just aren't adapting appropriately to the emotional health of their partners?

Essentially, I agree with your point about wounded men. I suppose my only problem with the argument is that most people get wounded and find solice and healing in love. My bf has worked wonders in terms of providing the healing environment I need for recovering from previous abuse and fear. As a consequence, my life is more focussed than it has ever been. Yet I don't feel the urge to abandon him....I feel grateful.

Anyway, just a few questions...I find this an intersting discussion, ad thanks for bringing it up.

Early months:


I saw him walk ahead of me when we were out.

Spoke of seeing spirits.

Stated he was never appreciated as he felt from me.

Stated "Women don't like me, I think they go for the macho type". He is extremely handsome, looks like Dolph Lundgren.

He would not cuddle.

Would not kiss "goodbye."

Would hardly ever kiss 'hello'.

When he did kiss, it was totally inexperienced, as if was the first time, closed mouth.

Had not ONE excess possession: An almost empty, neat home, ONE plate that he would wash, for the next time he had to eat.
His car-as if it just came off the lot. Not a speck of paper in it.
His desk: One pen. Nothing on the walls.

When I got mad if he didn't kiss me, he'd go home (I 'read' that as 'slow to get close' and gave it time -foolish me!

Would not go anywhere except work and home.

Quite different in sex, as if he were alone there.

The rest, was just fine. Very likeable and endearing. I was enjoying him and observing him, and never connected all that to: he can't "give anything.
I had all that info. and did not know how to use it.

I got no rush or pleasure from causing him to warm up and open up, I was just glad that he did, and constantly progress forward in affection. Couple that with the fact that he does not smoke, no drugs , no bars or clubs, nothing about other women in his life, and I liked it . I did not think that his progress and opening up might stop. I did not know that anyone can be so stunted in their emotional growth.

Could he be autistc? A savant of some sort? He could see a reflection of a picture in an actor's sunglasses on the screen, in a split second, most people would not notice. He would see a shadow on the floor in a movie scene, which no one else would have caught in the fraction of a second that it was there.

As for so many of the insights I have posted here before....I have been through much, and I am quite analytical, so I learned many things. But I have relatively limited exposure to large numbers of people in my life, so I always felt surprised at how different people are from one another, and how hard it was for me to 'peg" them. I could draw many conclusions AFTER THE FACT :)

And for sure, my own unloved upbringing led me to not have an image of "being loved well". Men were attracted to me, faithful to me, so relationships were fun and long, but had no depth, because probably I too , am young emotionally.
I have made the decision to get therapy, to uncover and "grow" that part of myself, and I really look forward to it.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Originally posted by Bella_D
Sage,

Why do you think an emotionally wounded guy who finds love and healing wih a good woman would naturally want to leave her when hes on the path of recovery? I appreciate the dove analogy, but men are humans and I don't quite get why their basic need for love and a mate would change because they are happier, more loved, and safe. The analogy almost implies that emotional health is incompatible with couple bonding, although I know youre getting at something more complex and deeper than that.

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Comic Sans MS">Bella,
I don't think that all men that
are emotionally wounded want to leave
the woman that helps them in their recovery.
Some of them become quite dependant on the woman
and I have to wonder if that is healthy either?

I feel that in the aspect of YM with OW,
there might be a higher "risk factor", if you will,
in the emotionally wounded YM wanting to
travel a different path after "healing those broken wings".

I am not saying that emotional health
is imcompatible with couple bonding-
BUT, it is not uncommon for a person that
"awakens" to a new attitude or a new "outlook"
on life, to want to strike out and experience all that
is new and exciting to them.
</FONT>

Do you think theres something a women can do to accommodate a mate who is in recovery, without falling into the traps associated with resisting his recovery? It makes sense that, say, a recovering alcoholic will have some different emotional needs, but surely they're not necessarily THAT different.....he still needs love, he still needs companionship, a stable home etc. At what point does gratitude for support turn to resentment or abandonment? Maybe some men leave because the women just aren't adapting appropriately to the emotional health of their partners?

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Comic Sans MS">The best thing
a partner can do for the recovering alcoholic
is to search out recovery for themself also.
(ALA-NON).
Working so hard to help another in getting
sober, (or getting emotional healing),
many times puts the partner that helps on
the 'back burner".
When the partner needing the helps recovers-
the other partner is left standing there with nothing
more to do, excpet adjust.
They need to expand and grow also-
not just be the nurturer.

It's a bit more "cut and dry" when discussing
the issues of an alcoholic.
There is a tangible reason for the damage- booze.
You can touch it, smash it, point at it and blame all
your troubles on what is inside that bottle.
With a person that has other emotional damage,
for whatever reasons, it is not that simplistic.

For instance. if a person has been abused as a child,
there are many shades of gray.
There are layers of pain and the fabric of
a child's past that has unraveled.

Emotional damage is variable.
</FONT>

Essentially, I agree with your point about wounded men. I suppose my only problem with the argument is that most people get wounded and find solice and healing in love. My bf has worked wonders in terms of providing the healing environment I need for recovering from previous abuse and fear. As a consequence, my life is more focussed than it has ever been. Yet I don't feel the urge to abandon him....I feel grateful.

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Comic Sans MS">Sounds to me,
that your boyfriend has offered you the
support that you needed to "recover" from abuse.
There is no way that he could magically make it
"go away" without you taking a firm hand in putting
the abuse into perspective for YOU.
As cliche as it sounds,
there are many partners that are nothing more
than "the wind beneath our wings"
That "wind" does not necessarily "heal"
our emotinal wounds, but allows us to recognize
and utilize our own inner strength
to over-come the demons and damage.
We are then able to "fly" on our own.
When support is offered to another-
this is different than "emotional first-aid'
being given.

There are no guarantees when it comes
to extending support to an emotionally damaged
person in our life.
We can wait on them hand and foot,
reach inside them and turn them inside out
to show them how wonderful they are,
we can hold them up, brace them, pick them up,
put them back together and spoon feed
them unconditional love 24/7-
it will not secure happiness for you
or for your partner.

I have seen over and over people that
finally sober up-
leave their partner that helped
them find their sobriety.
For some alcoholics, the partner is reduced
to nothing more than a reminder of their past drinking
and they want to escape that, remove themselves
from that reminder and run!</FONT>

Anyway, just a few questions...I find this an intersting discussion, ad thanks for bringing it up.

<FONT SIZE=2 COLOR=Black FACE="Comic Sans MS">I think it
is interesting too
and one that all women need to look at
and put into perspective.
Are you a woman who constatly finds herself
administering emotional first-aid to men?
Or are you the "wind beneath his wings" to support
his journey to finding stable emotional ground?</FONT>

<FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=768A76 FACE="Lucida Handwriting">~Sage~ </FONT><img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/lilfairy.gif">

<FONT SIZE=3 COLOR=Darkgreen FACE="Tempus Sans ITC">May you have warm words
on a cold evening,
A full moon
on a dark night,
And the road downhill
all the way to your door.
</FONT><FONT SIZE=5 COLOR=Black FACE="Freestyle Script">An Irish Blessing</FONT>
<img src="http://ChasingDownTheBlue.homestead.com/files/stpatgirl.gif">

sage..........

recovery does not in the slightest of ways support the breakup of marriages and relationships. in fact the tools learned in recovery would be a God-send in any relationship. .

it has been my personal experience to see the opposite of what you described, i have seen families united, men and wemon fall in love again with their partners and recommit to attempting to undo and heal the damage done by their behavior. if someone in recovery does not do the above mentioned, they may still be in recovery but they are not following spiritual guidelines set forth in the program.

sometimes even sick alcoholics marry even sicker enablers, and sometimes the alcoholic gets well......so what happens to the partner, they have to give up some control...they dont always like to do that. so then the question is "why would someone pick an alcoholic?" Not every story is the same, there are some who dont know what they are getting into, but for the ones that do, why do they do it? the question is on them. getting healty can be a family affair in more ways than one.

Godbless and peace..........kitty

Sage is correct...
the statistics are out there, the vigilant partner that drags the substance abuser to AA meetings or to treatment and into recovery usually gets dumped...the statistics bear it out...read any book you want about druggies or alcoholics and it will get this point across...the vigilant mate is always looked on as the bad guy or bad girl trying to make the addict responsible by dragging them away from their best friend (the booze or drug)...most sober folks can only stand so much neglect (verbal and physical abuse) from a drunk...it gets to you after a while and you won't subject yourself for very long to it...it is human nature...you leave negative environments...if someone wants to lose themselves in a bottle, the sober person will in time see the light, and vanish...the hell bestowed on the heads of the sober folks trying to wage the battle with a substance abuser in trying to make them a responsible citizen is life shattering...it can destroy trust in others as the sober partner watches with horror the infidelities carried out by the addicted partner, destroy positive personalities, make children very obsessive in their need for order, so that one acts and behaves as if one has been in a war torn country...because one has...the alcoholic never sees or feels the pain that he is placing on others because he is all boozed up most of the time...Hadley

I think that kitty and sage are both right. Sometimes the recovered person moves on, and sometimes they don't.

But, back to Almeiraz's issue. I am so happy for you that you have decided to seek counseling. I hope that you will find the answers you are looking for there. But, be proud of the work you have done in the past few days reflecting back on your relationship and recognizing what you could have seen earlier. This is what is most important... that we learn from our relationships and grow as an individual.

He was sexually abused (not raped):
At age 10, by a young adult family friend, who threatened him with hurting his mother if the boy told her anything.
His mother got that man to court then. This threat and the burden of silence can have been the start of his suppressing feelings, and daling with them in silence and isolation. Age of injury at 10, seems about right for how he reacts to conflict-his emotional development stopped then.

Another man at work 10 years ago was sexually harassing him, and J. reported him, and left that job.
Sure explains his very early 'don't touch me' behavior.
The definition of avoidant personality, fits him in every one word:
Seems now that on top of knowing all about boundaries, we need Psych. education.....:)

Avoidant Adults: Avoidants experience caregivers as unnurturing, dismissive
> and critical. Avoidant adults are uncomfortable with closeness and intimacy.
> They are emotionally distant, uncomfortable expressing needs or asking for
> help. Often they do not recall much of their childhood experiences. They are
> good in a crisis because of their ability to react with intellect and set
> feelings aside. They can be cool, controlled, ambitious and successful. They avoid
> conflict and tend to be passive-aggressive and sarcastic. They don't want to
> rely on anyone, fearing dependency or a perception of being weak.


Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

This is what first came to my mind when you were describing him earlier. My ex-husand was also sexually abused as a child. We think it was at about the age of 8.

Typically, most men will not go through the necessary therapy to deal with this past trauma. Although my ex has done some work on himself, I do not believe he will ever be able to have a healthy, intimate relationship with anyone.

Almeiraz, you are probably better off cutting your losses right now. Believe me, I never thought I'd say that. In my marriage, I was going to be there until death us did part. However, I eventually learned that there are some things that love absolutely cannot conquer. He has to be willing to do the work and it may take years of painful, intense therapy to deal with this.

I emailed him to offer him the kitties that I got for him really, and that he loves so much. He called me back to talk about it.
I told him how easy it would have ben if a neighbor or I had called police when he was on my steps whispering to the kitty at 1 am Friday, for him to be picked up and even taken to the mental ward. He said 'I too thought about that, and decided that I should not drink!". Always trying to keep stuff inside, lest he sees what he has in there....


This floored me-I had not thought that he could attribute all the rage on the phone messages, the obssessive persistence etc. to just drinking. It never crossed my mind! Here again is an example of his practical, logical mind working, taking no account of emotional things. IT MUST BE AS HARD FOR HIM TO SEE WHAT I MEAN WHEN I MENTIONED RELATIONSHIP NEEDS, AS IT IS FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND HIS CHILDISH MIND.

When I mentioned all the times that he would leave and go home whenever there was a problem, he said, and floored me again "that's why our relationship lasted so long".
He will seek therapy, and we both made it clear that we are not a couple.
I feel so sad in general....thank you for coming and talking with me....

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz, men who have been sexually abused as a child will waltz all around the issue and blame their problems on everything else under the sun OTHER THAN what actually happened because it is just too painful for them to bear. :(

My ex did that. He blamed his 1st wife, and then he blamed me. He blamed the Army. He blamed his family. He blamed our children. He blamed his job. He also did drugs and alcohol in his past life before meeting me and probably blamed them, too.

He also would just leave when things got even the slight bit heated. He also would say that if he left, things would get better. That's exactly what he said to me as he was packing his bags at 5:30 a.m. on the morning he walked out of our lives... that we would be better off without him.

Well, it took me about 6 years to realize it, but unfortunately, he was right. At least he was right about how much better off we'd be if he was not living with us. Now he and I are friends. But, each time we talk, I know in my heart that it's possible that he will go into another downward spiral and we may not hear from him for 4 years again.

Sex abuse is probably THE worst thing that can happen to a child and devastates EVERYONE around them... like a ripple on a pond.

Hi there Almeiraz,

first off, I am sorry for what has happened to you. I can feel your loss and pain when I read the letters and responses in this tread, and I hope that you can heal quickly from this, or that (yes I am an eternal optimist) this breakup might has served a severe enough shock to help your partner get in touch with his emotions... and maybe much later, you could salvage some sort of relationship with him...

now I won't get into details but I understand your ex. he is very fortunate to have had you. he possibly needs therapy... but he certainly needs an emotional catharsis of some sorts... sounds like he is suffereing from post traumatic stress dissorder of some sort... survivors of these bad experiences when they are too young to deal with these, usually halt their emotiona/sexual/personal/spiritual growth at the age of the traumatism...

providing a safe place for him to feel vulnerable is good, but he probably needs more....

sounds like drinking can let him access his emotions, which in this case are the rage and anger of a 10 year old who has been fucked around and not helped.

I have seen a lot of this, "in vino veritas". I worked as a bouncer in grad school, I got very familiar with Exctasy. Realiesd quite quickly why it is such an important drug: it lets people get intouch with their emotions. It is why it was such a good marraige therapy drug before it was made illegal in 85. I have seen people who have "burst the bubble" on E. An expression used for when a person who has lived a tramatic event in the past relives it or comes to terms with it... it is also the reason why so many people "come out" on E: repressed sexuality that comes face to face with your concsious self when you are on this drug.

I am not advocating that your ex do illegal drugs, but it sounds like he is on the virge of "bursting the bubble", thanks to your your love.

I also agree with the mothering opinions some people have expressed here... sounds like you did quite a bit of that. He has evolved and things need to take a new turn... unfortunately in this case it seems as if it will be without you...

I don't write here often because I think that my views and experiences go contrary to what the general concensus here is, but your comments on my thread helped me massively, and still do in fact.... I hope these few words can do the same...

A bientot.

Honestly Samson,

I wish there was a big legal supply of the stuff for me, and another for him.
Even if he got the best of help, he would never become someone who would 'push my wheelchair'. You can't grow a whole new personality even with the best of treatment.
Even though it would be wonderful for him to heal, I don't want to have this nagging feeling that HE would always find it a little easier than me to withdraw from the relationship.

I would always have the nagging thought that there would always be something superficial in his behavior, which would be enabled by my own 'confident, non-needy behavior'. I would have the feeling that EVERYTHING depends on how I treat him and act around him.
I should be with a man who is strong, trusting me, and is enough of a sharer to grab me and sit me down and talk with me, instead of J, who goes home instead.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Hi Zeph,

You are right in that I diagnose him. But I am not his girlfriend any more, and have no contact with him. I don't 'treat' him.

I "diagnose" him just to help me have a bit of understanding of what I'm dealing with, rather than explaining his behavior with things like "He was drinking' , 'I was judgemental of him and set him off', 'He's had little relationship experience", 'he's so faithful', and on and on.

Diagnosing him also helps me decide that I will not go back with him, if he ever asked me to.
If he has a personality disorder, efforts at improving communication and maturity are more likely to fail than if he were just immature and inexperienced.

So....since I had so much data about him over 4.5 years, as well as the nagging feeling in my gut that something is not right, I started detailed research.

It just seems that his mom's imminent return to her home state, awakened in him the pain and anger when she left him and his sister when he was 18, suddenly and abruptly, to follow a man out of state. He sees the same indifference he saw then, in fact he said last month "she doesn't think about anything except herself".
It seems that in the last 4 months he was more the abandoned 18 yr.old, than my b/f, and he related to me from that mindset. No wonder he was demanding, childish, angry, etc.

But I can not entrust my heart and future to someone who i can't rely on. So, it's over. I told him I'll be his good friend, and will always love and like him, but I honestly don't want a relationship with him. I think the damage is there and therapy will only repair some of it. I told him that he should go for therapy. It's all up to him, and there is nothing more I can do.

I hope this made it a little clearer?

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Zeph,

I kind of worry about Almeirez's tendency to focus on psychologically diagnosing (or even misdiagnosing) her ex bf too. I accept her point that understanding him enables her to place accountability where it belongs, rather than take the relationship breakup excessively personally.

But I expect it also takes the focus off her own healing, and even promotes denial with regards to her own role in all of this. A lot of her posts come across as a bit obsessive, like shes keeping the relationship alive by focussing on all the intricate details of her ex-bf's mind. (sorry Almeirez, I feel so deeply for you and I mean no offense by sharing my observations!!! truly!!)

Almeirez, I kind of understand where you're coming from. But understanding someone who has hurt or abandoned you is far less important than working out your boundaries, and why you let them be violated for all these years. Its your ex bf's responsibiliy to understand himself, and yours to understand you. Why are you focussing on him so much? Well I reckon I know.... I'll bet you hurting like hell right now, and dealing with this cerebrally is the only way you know to keep the flood emotional pain at bay.

I'd just love it if you found a way to process this trauma emotionally which feels ok for you. Some people tell me acupuncture and massage can work wonders.

((hugs)) Almeirez. I'm so sorry for your pain and for the years of effort and compassion you've given this man. You really didn't deserve to be treated this way.

Please keep it coming-it's so difficult to for me to 'see' myself-like walking in pitch dark.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvise.com

"Walking in pitch black"...I meant that I can't "see" myself. I just can't. I can "see' others" but not me. I don't know how I come across, and how else I could come across. I am not beyond improving....
I don't feel depressed. I feel that either I can't relate to others because there's something I'm doing wrong-too analytical? Too cerebral? too serious?
Or, I'm trying to relate to the wrong "others'.

My (ex) b/f J. said last night on the phone "Instead of the 2 page letter you sent me, you should have asked me to meet for dinner, something nice. The letter was "flooding".
I get the sense that I can get whatever I want from him if I am light, flirtatious, attractive, with him. That it all depends on HOW HE FEELS IN THE PRESENT MOMENT.
For example, he said " I am happy-I work a lot, I like the office people, I just feel happy". He does nothing else except go to the office and home.
When I asked him if he feels he can do that for the rest of his life, he said "I don't know".
My wonderings and questions have less to do with him, than with ME. I don't find it hard to not have him in my life.
I wonder if the way I am makes it hard for him and others to stay in my life, and if yes, what I can improve so this changes.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz,
I have been very reluctant to write to you because I can't understand the situation that well. From what I have heard of this man here and in the emails, he's not normal. I don't see how you could have missed it. I really don't see.

He's an egocentric with an almost autistic kind of behaviour. He seems to not be able to grasp anyone else's needs or feelings. Even when it comes to expressing himself in an email, he's totally mixed up, and what I see is a kind of childish, compulsive and distant person. He is not open to the world and seems to have no clue of what the world is all about. I see no normal interaction with the world. He may use it a little, just enough to make money and function without being immediately recognized as mentally disturbed, but you scratch the superficies of it, and it's impossible to miss how disturbed this man is.

Once you told me that probably the fact that I was a health professional and that healing is part of me, justified why I endured so much from my mommy boy of ex and his equally abnormal mother. I wanted to heal him. Now I can say the same thing to you. Stop trying to analyse him, it's not possible to do it, you are inside the problem and you won't see clear. Your feelings for him grew together with your knowledge of his weird behaviour, and you just couldn't do anything about it because you loved him. You had hopes and you still have them. It's okay, it's normal, it's too recent, it was a long story, a long story of dependence too, and it will take long to get rid of all this.

Go to therapy and listen to yourself. Don't be the doormat. Don't be his nurse. At this moment, it's you who need to be taken care of.

He's an egocentric with an almost autistic kind of behaviour. He seems to not be able to grasp anyone else's needs or feelings. Even when it comes to expressing himself in an email, he's totally mixed up, and what I see is a kind of childish, compulsive and distant person. He is not open to the world and seems to have no clue of what the world is all about. I see no normal interaction with the world. He may use it a little, just enough to make money and function without being immediately recognized as mentally disturbed, but you scratch the superficies of it, and it's impossible to miss how disturbed this man is.

This is EXACTLY -word for word-what I saw and what I feel. It took repeated things for me to reach these impressions. Even the word "autistic".
That's why I am not depressed, I am not holding out any hope, and I honestly don't feel it can be fixed. If I saw him as normal, I would be hurt to an extend. Not now.
I am just taking this situation as an opportunity to find out something about me that I don't know....the many posts I have here have created some impression in people, and I am asking for it. I won't be offended. Honest feedback.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeirez,

I feel that you're being too hard on yourself, sweet one. The whole point of `defences' is that they work, sometimes only temporarily, but you've had a nasty shock and you've probably been in a state of numbness for a while leading up to this point.

If you have to `go cerebral' right now, think and analyse away. I drink heavily when I'm in grief.....thats got to be a lot worse than analysing. But then eventually I replace it with physical fitness, new people and experiences, and positive self talk. The sun eventually shines again and then you move on with a lot more wisdom.

Roberto said something on another thread which seemed wise to me......when we're grieving the loss of a loved one, we naturally look for a formula for success to prevent us from hurting like that ever again.

You may be dealing with all this cerebrally right now, but the upside is that you WILL come out of this with a radar for ill men and the resolve to avoid them. I sense that what you're doing riight now is greater than breaking ties with your ex.......you're breaking a potential pattern.........and maybe even deep down youre grieving an ill or unloving parent too. This stuff goes way deep, and its hard to deal with purely on emotional terms. If you can't connect emotionallty right now, its because its not the right time. But please make it your goal...you need that heart of yours! Its what makes people love and trust you, and you them.

Just don't go around judging yourself or thinking you need to be this or that. You're in grief, and you're going to be ok. You're allowed to cry BTW.

(((HUGS)))

And to add to what Bella so well put, I would tell you that the only image I have of you is of someone caring, someone delicate, you like to help, you are very intelligent, but you are just human. And we don't expect you to be more than that!

I have the impression, and I forgot to mention that in my post, that you might have been attracted to something in him that you saw as almost poetic, because of all the mystery, the uniqueness of the person he was. But it was only the fact that he was probably suffering from some mental illness that gave him this aura of uniqueness. :(

When you work with the families of mentally ill people, you'll often observe, and you may agree with me, that the families themselves start to behave strangely. They kind of adapt to the illness. It wouldn't surprise me if you have come out of this relationship in deep need of help, much more than you can imagine. I think you'll be okay, Almeiraz.

I always want to hear from you and now i´ve to hear this!
I´m sorry about that but i´m sure you are doing it so well because you are strong and intelligent.
i always remember your advices and that make my love life better.
A very big hug for you.

MIM

Irene, where have you been? We missed you!! I missed you so much! I wrote to you, worried, now you are not going to leave us, are you?


I'm goign to bed now, but I want you to promise you'll stay with us! Please!!!!:))


Bienvenida, mi amiguita!

http://www.millan.net/anims/giffar/firework.gif

I can't believe that Mimosita showed up!!
Mimosita, why don't you post more often? What's going on with you?
I must tell you...your posts and their unbelievable quality have been inducing so much thinking on my part...

I didn't pay attention to moments of discomfort inside me with him from the beginning...fleeting moments...such as when he said
"I'll be spending next weekend at my mother's, do you have a problem with that?"
"I don't think I want us to go see the 'Nutcracker' at Christmas", visibly uncomfortable- (we had met Sept. 28).
"If this is what you wanted, you should have gotten a husband"-when I got mad because he would not kiss me before sex.
The walking ahead of me as if he did not want to be seen with me the few times we were out in public.
The strange way he had sex with me, keeping his body inches away from mine, concentrated on him.
The "Do you know how much energy it takes to make love to you 3 times in one weekend??'.
His uncomfortable "wooden' body language the first time we went to see a movie-sitting forward, with hands on his thighs the entire time, his vigilance in the crowded parking lot as if everything about parking and then pulling out was a dangerous thing (He had asked me to drive).

I keep wondering: I took all those things as 'peculiarities', as "taking it slow" "slow to warm up' , especially since he showed so clearly he liked me and my company at any other time. I thought I'd give it a few weeks/months, and if it didn't change, I'd leave. It changed.
I guess I should had broken it off from the first couple of months....?? How did I fail to suspect that he may be superficial and not wanting a real close relationship?
He is so "textbook":
Avoidance reduction should focus not only on fear of criticism (the
official dynamic explanation of avoidance) but also on the equally
important fears of flooding, depletion, and acceptance. Avoidants are
not simply afraid of criticism and humiliation-the only reason for
avoidance currently identified in the official literature. They are
also afraid of being flooded by feelings they cannot tolerate, and of
being depleted should they express these feelings. Most importantly,
they fear acceptance as much as they fear rejection because they fear
losing their identity and personal freedom.

Almeiraz
www.yourloveadvice.com

Originally posted by Almeiraz
...I keep wondering: I took all those things as 'peculiarities', as "taking it slow" "slow to warm up' , especially since he showed so clearly he liked me and my company at any other time. I thought I'd give it a few weeks/months, and if it didn't change, I'd leave. It changed.
I guess I should had broken it off from the first couple of months....?? How did I fail to suspect that he may be superficial and not wanting a real close relationship?
...www.yourloveadvice.com

Almeiraz,
I think it's always hard to identify negative patterns or destructive elements to our relationships when we are getting involved with someone special - after all, nobody is perfect and we all have our little idiosyncracies. So, I don't think in some of the examples you mentioned, that they ARE red flags per se - just a red flag in that they made you uncomfortable.

So, don't beat yourself up too much about not having known sooner - the interesting thing is not THAT you missed those signs (which you didn't, obviously) and not all of which I would consider real "warnings". However, I agree that it is important to ask yourself how you contributed to denying and addresssing things that made you uncomfortable.

You seem a very analytical person with a tendency to "intellectualize" everything, especially feelings. ;) I might be projecting here though, because this is actually what I MYSELF do a lot - I said in another thread that I am very "conflict-averse" and have difficulties identifying when I am feeling hurt, upset or so, because I can very easily emotionally detach and go into "analysis mode", thereby avoiding having to deal with feelings/emotions, but rather deal with "arguments (as in pros/cons, very solution driven).
And once in that mode, I am trying to solve tension by "discussing" behaviour - but not addressing the underlying feelings and tension; which, in my case in my past relationship, meant that my xbf and were always civil and thought of being "constructive" (solutions orientated towards behaviour), instead of addressing what was REALLY bugging him/me - if you could not analytically explain or describe it, it just didn't exist :p; not that good a coping strategy, I have learned since and working on getting better in identifying my own discomforts and negative feeling instead of just detaching and "cover up the cracks".

Maybe you are a bit like that too ;) If that doesn't relate to your situation and self, plz ignore this ;) I was just wondering if that might have been part of your "denial" of his - for you - hurtful behaviour - especially on the physical side.

This is, btw, another thing I learned about myself - being a very cerebral person myself, I never used to put much emphasis on physical contact - but it's there, I have learned for myself, that the REAL clues to intimacy or detachments lie; same as in the acts > words rule of thumb ;). But I didn't ALWAYS "know" this (ok, call me ignorant lol) but since I learned and realize this, this has been one of my safest indicators to identify tension and to assess people's closeness and level of attachment.

This is just my personal experience; but if you are a bit like me, this might be the area you might want to focus you attention on, because it's not that easy for a very analytical, cerebral person to get really in touch with one's emotions ;) But hey, as I said, I might be totally projecting here ;)

Wow Al.......you've been through the emotional grinder!!! This guy sounds like a real work of art. It's hard not to have compassion for him for being in his own lil twisted world.

It sounds as if you're in the "how screwed up could I have been to be w/this guy" mode. That's a good thing. A lot of introspection....doing the cerebral thing. For those of us...and I speak for myself being a HUGE fan of analyzing, re-analyzing and then analyzing everything all over again....this is progress. I too have learned to put more emphasis on letting myself feel, even if that means to hurt for a while and to also give the cerebral thing equal time. We all function and get over hurt in ways as unique to each as we are. I don't presume to tell you how/which way will make you whole faster, easier, etc. That is only for you to chose. All I can offer is a warm hug, a kind word and many wishes for your happiness and healing.

P. S. Note to self: Stay away from guys w/cat issues, those who like artichokes and have an aversion to remodeling!!! (Just a lil levity.....humor helps to heal!!!) Big hugzzzz to u......