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View Poll Results: Should the "Discussion & Debate" forum be reinstated?

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  • Yes, I would love to participate in such forum!

    17 60.71%
  • No, discussing and debating will not add value to Ageless

    7 25.00%
  • No comment, meaning I'm completely indifferent to the idea

    4 14.29%
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Thread: Should a "Discussion & Debate" forum be reinstated?

  1. #46
    tinydancer Guest
    LOL Dan......I think that we are all pushing buttons to illustrate the point.
    Besides, while we should always welcome new members we should also try to keep our current population happy as well.
    Even when I've grounded my own child I have to ask....does the punishment fit the crime? and.....how long will I ground her for?
    Haven't we been "grounded" long enough
    Some of us really loved that forum.
    Suppose if you just want to worry about the #'s....it is time for a lot of us old timers to go
    Oh and Sheila....hope you know that I was just pulling your chain!
    I do not, despite my words, say too much with 100% conviction....most of my symantics are for my own humor.
    Still, one day, I want to see what all is under that city lol.
    Last edited by tinydancer; 09-14-2008 at 10:16 AM.

  2. #47
    whyme Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    But what I'm worried about is that certain people *may* take things out of context as an insult, when in reality it's not. I fear this is inevitable based on my reading of many posts where where
    1) some people seem unable to write precisely what they are thinking and
    2) some people seem unable to read precisely what was written.
    I see this over and over here in the year+ I have been in this forum. Sad to say it is more often the native English speakers (not all of them of course) that seem to have this problem. The ESL members, for the most part, seem to have a better grasp of how to express themselves. Perhaps when one grows up in a language, one get careless with it?

    I often think of that old adage "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me". What nonsense. Words have caused more trouble in the world than any amount of sticks and stones.

  3. #48
    tinydancer Guest
    Yes, your right WM.....words can and have hurt a lot but still....
    This is an internet forum and, imo, the best place to learn and share ideas.
    Again, if people do not like this sort of thing, just like your TV.....change the channel lol.
    I do not go to the LDR or other forums here that do not relate to my life so I feel no need to "keep up" with what we already have here.
    In all of my years, hurt feelings (my own included), blow ups....it has passed and it actually kind of disgusts me that on such a site AG where we have brought the "disgusting" into the mainstream....it seems so hypocritical and childish to moderate us to the point of removing forums.

  4. #49
    tinydancer Guest
    One more thing (I think) and I'll rest my case.........
    Look at the recent threads here, look at how many posted.....look at how many posts in two days this thread has.
    The numbers speak for themselves.
    This has become a fairly boring nicey nice place....that is not reality and there is not much lately to comment on....unless you cook.

  5. #50
    tinydancer Guest
    Yup....it would be something to see Sheila....lets do it....I'll find us a good map!
    TM, I agree.....it is odd that people are debating a debate section
    I mean, other than what programs my child watches, I do not care what people want to turn on in their own homes.
    I despise so many network programs but guess what....I don't watch nor do I waste my time trying to tell others why not to watch.
    Again, unless it is childrens programming, which I believe needs MAJOR moderation....live and let live....geeze!

  6. #51
    Kristin's Avatar
    Kristin is offline Senior Member
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    You know I would love a debate/discussion area where adults can talk about the issues, be passionate about topics, argue and still walk away feeling ok about everything.

    I know that is what you guys want and what we want.

    Unfortunately, that is never reality.

    Instead, people get heated and argue and instead of walking away, they call each other names. They stalk each other on other threads, just to antagonize. They PM each other horrible things and (I've actually seen grown adults do this HERE) conspire in PMs with each other to gang up on another member who holds different views to force them to leave. And certain groups run roughshod over other members, until the other members don't come around anymore.

    There are some really militant types here who think they are freethinkers and open minded and reasonable, but they are not. Many people in the past that said people should be more thickskinned were the very ones who did most of the complaining that we didn't moderate enough!

    The attitude never stays, "Don't moderate US." It eventually changes to, "Don't moderate ME...but that other dude has to be moderated!"

    Here's my proposal. I would say have an unmoderated debate, but the instant you ask for something to be moderated as a result of the debate, you're out. If you get a substantiated complaint that you've taken bad feelings to the rest of the board, you're out. Period, no discussion. Because if we're going to have an area like that, I don't want to hear any whining or bullying.

    The thing we're tired of is everyone saying they don't want moderation, yet somehow we end up moderating twice as much when that happens.

    And Truckman, we didn't moderate opinions or beliefs. The only time we had to step in was when people started calling each other names and the thread fell into a free-for-all. And contrary to popular belief, we rarely did so unless it wsa requested by members. Non of us has time to be policing threads. Never once did I moderate anything that was on topic. Constantly, I was moderating comments like "You're an idiot' or "You need to get a life." etc. Stuff people say when they can't think of an intelligent way to make a point. But I never moderated something just because I didn't agree with it.

    Your traffic comparision is NOT perfect. The only thing the policeman is doing is keeping you from breaking the law. He's not stopping you from DRIVING.

  7. #52
    tinydancer Guest
    Kristin, as a moderator.....I don't envy all of the whinning and petty pm's you must get
    In all of this time, other than a few pm's from a few members, I have never conspired nor would I ever....I like this place and most other members way too much.
    And yes....I know you've edited me when I've taken shots (brilliant as my shots can be) at a few hard core, narrow minded views but still.....seems like common sense to keep my utinsils in the kitchen and not spread out throughout my home.
    I like what your saying here!

  8. #53
    Kristin's Avatar
    Kristin is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    You've never driven in New Jersey, have you? The real driving starts at 75 mph ;-)

    I guess I should avoid regional humor heh-heh.
    LOL! No, I guess not! ;-)

  9. #54
    Kristin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    Howdy Kristin,



    And those people will be tarred and feathered accordingly.
    </p>
    I wish that were true. It all depends which side of the majority the person was on. if the gang agreed with the person, they just jumped on the name-calling bandwagon. I saw that happen just as much as the tar & feathering for name calling. And the tar& feathering always made matters worse. The thread just turned into a free-for-all of people berating each other and the poor thread starter saw their thread disintegrate.But that's fine with me as long as people understand that is going to happen and don't ask us to moderate and don't take it outside the debate forum.

  10. #55
    greenpetunia's Avatar
    greenpetunia is offline A Pensive Member
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    Look people, I would love the see a D&D forum at ageless, moderated if possible... not in the sense of censoring views, but with the spirit of keeping posts
    1. reasonably polite: that means no name calling, and to some extent without derogatory or condescending remarks;
    2. focused on the topic: that means people not trying to provoke others, or reading more than there is to it;
    3. intelligent: i hate to say this, but for this to be we need to put some thought into what we write...
      • first, by labelling the topic correctly;
      • second, by writing sentences into paragraphs that are reasonably coherent;
      • third, by making a point that is pertinent to the topic;
      • fourth, by using more precise language;
      • and last, by saying something of value (ok, jokes are allowed... they have "a" value).
    4. contained: this is where you really show some character and class by not engaging someone you have differences with in other areas of Ageless... this includes sending PMs to moderators or other members with the purpose of damaging an individual... that's simply not cool.
    I know this easier said than done, and I'm not expecting every one of us to be a scholar of some sort, but the petty fights that can take place like the unfortunate example on this thread do not lead to anything. Notice that I did not add quality or importance of topics to the list. I figure that will get sorted out on its own.

    I want to reiterate the points Sheila mentioned before because I think they're important for the sake of a healthy debate or discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheila4pd View Post
    I believe this thread has been quite a sample of what is wrong with debate. First, the title does not describe the contents. Second, comments that are totally off topic that are potentially offensive for no good reason at all. *shrugs*.

    Moderation or no moderation?

    Threads can dissapear if the OP deletes them. I believe this right should be preserved.

    How to avoid trolls? How to avoid hidden agendas? How to avoid cliques?

    Also, the majority is not always right, and a minority (not racial but ideological) may feel at a disadvantage when the crowd gangs up on him/her. Example, the "Should she pay the tip" thread.

    I believe some moderation would be healthy.
    I sincerely do not envy the task of a moderator here, and I can understand why they don't wish to do it or bring a forum that is going to give them so many headaches. No matter how they do it, somebody will always find them at fault. Just by reading, some of the posts, they are already being criticized for doing their "moderation". Not fair. I quote some of the difficulties Kristin has faced with her moderation, which really have nothing to see with her personal opinions on the topic discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin View Post
    The attitude never stays, "Don't moderate US." It eventually changes to, "Don't moderate ME...but that other dude has to be moderated!".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin View Post
    The thing we're tired of is everyone saying they don't want moderation, yet somehow we end up moderating twice as much when that happens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin View Post
    The only time we had to step in was when people started calling each other names and the thread fell into a free-for-all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristin View Post
    Constantly, I was moderating comments like "You're an idiot' or "You need to get a life." etc. Stuff people say when they can't think of an intelligent way to make a point. But I never moderated something just because I didn't agree with it.
    So, Kristin is willing to create a non-moderated forum, but now we don't have any other mechanism to keep it healthy. Please, don't tell me that having people call each other "idiot" or "stupid" is healthy or leads to a civil discussion. If I disagree with someone, I can state my opinions without using those adjectives or without making allusions to the person's sex, racial or religious background. To me, that's just as insulting as being called an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    And those people will be tarred and feathered accordingly.
    So, the question here is HOW... If the membership believes that we can auto-moderate this forum, then we have to figure out some sort of mechanism to do so. Otherwise, how are we going to ban disruptive members, or shouldn't we, and let things reach the depths of lunacy?

    So, please try to be a little constructive here, and start adding ideas on how this could be done. Stop bothering the moderator, me included... she's only the messenger, and a good one as far as I'm concerned.

    Sorry, for the lengthy post... and for my tendency to split everything into tiny little pieces... I'm just trying to help.
    Last edited by greenpetunia; 09-15-2008 at 12:21 PM.
    "Deserve your dreams" ~~ Octavio Paz

  11. #56
    eponavet's Avatar
    eponavet is offline Senior Member
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    gp - Your post illustrates how hard this is going to be.....

    When the first words i see on a post are "Loook people" - i hear in my head a condescending tone - whether or not the poster intended it that way.

    The words polite, focused, intelligent and pertinent are all subjective. One person's focused post is another's incoherent ramble...and tends to be pointed out to the op as such, which sends the debate on a tangent regarding what constitues intelligent, pertinent and focused...and usually one or two people jump on that bandwagon and either gang up on the op or the respondant. I LOVED the debate section, but let me tell you, it was a constant source of personal conflict that seemed to be exacerbated by the anonyminty of the internet and the mob mentality that tended to rear it's head more often than not.

    I don't know how it can be done. To be honest, i don't think it can - it probably needs to just be a member's only non-moderated forum. That's the best way to keep the moderator's from pulling their hair out and i am QUITE sure it will pointed out to those people who choose to post down there that if they can't take the heat....stay out!

    I think it's worth a shot....but it will get ugly sometimes - that's inevitable when people start defending topics they feel passionately about or that they feel are being misinterpreted...I hope it works itself out and we can show everyone that we CAN have a healthy debate section with minimal (not non-existant) conflict.
    ~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~



  12. #57
    tinydancer Guest
    Very seldom in that forum has there been any name calling....when I use those words as a description it has never been directed towards anyone....well maybe one but we all know who and he is one
    Again though.....if you do not like that section....stay out of it.
    Don't debate something you've never even been a part of.
    Obviously many of us loved it, miss it, and want it back and have enough respect for each other, most times, that we are still friends.
    We have all gone toe to toe around here from one time or the other and are still here.
    More people left, GREAT members, when that forum went away
    Yes, a few complained, left in a huff, carried it over onto other forums but, to those people I say..........good riddance!

  13. #58
    greenpetunia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eponavet View Post
    gp - Your post illustrates how hard this is going to be.....
    I agree eponavet... just because I'm trying to put some ideas out there doesn't mean that I'm the best communicator... I'm not... and I'm not expecting anyone to be, but I think what's important is not cross the limits of civility, and that is an area where we need to set boundaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by eponavet View Post
    I don't know how it can be done. To be honest, i don't think it can - it probably needs to just be a member's only non-moderated forum. That's the best way to keep the moderator's from pulling their hair out and i am QUITE sure it will pointed out to those people who choose to post down there that if they can't take the heat....stay out!
    So, I understand correctly, you're proposing a member-moderated forum. I'm a go for this, but I'm not quite sure if this is technologically feasible.

    Now, on the point regarding people who choose to post or not to post, and are told to stay out if they cannot take the heat... again, I'm not alluding to anyone here (I really mean it) except the mere concept for the sake of managing a D&D forum... telling people to go away if they don't like it is so redundant and not even an argument. However, this makes me bring another point... how are you going to ban, not unwilling, but unwanted posters?

    With unwanted posters, I mean the ones who break the rules we have yet to set. Or would it be better just to have no rules at all?
    "Deserve your dreams" ~~ Octavio Paz

  14. #59
    greenpetunia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinydancer View Post
    Don't debate something you've never even been a part of.
    TD, exactly my point, and I'm trying to be as respectful as I can with everything I am saying. So, if I'm not leaving the discussion willingly, and if my posts annoy/offend you or anyone so much, what are you going to do to stop me?
    "Deserve your dreams" ~~ Octavio Paz

  15. #60
    eponavet's Avatar
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    I'm suggesting a forum where members know up front that the moderators will not intervene, posts can't be reported....i'm not sure if that's what a "member's moderated forum" is, but yea....i'm also saying that just because we say we will all act like respectful adults does NOT mean that's what will happen. I don't know if you ever had the pleasure of trying to discuss or debate a topic with Trueheart...let's just say he is very good at making even the most tolerant people want to hunt him down and strangle him...

    Good intentions and all.....it will be interesting at the very least.
    ~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~



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