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Thread: Is this rude or am I just old fashioned?

  1. #46
    LastTango is offline Member
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    Anyway going back to the original comment about not knowing the address, I do now so it's a bit of a moot point really!

  2. #47
    LastTango is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by theREALTrish View Post
    I think GG has a valid point. You've stated that this girl does not want to make any plans for you to get together. She doesn't want to talk to you on the phone, and now you've revealed that, despite asking her several times for her new address, she hasn't given it to you. It's really time for you to stop making excuses and allowances for her. She's "just not that into you". I'm sorry if that's painful for you to realize but you're getting advice and insight from people who are completely objective.

    This girl is, currently, not able to give you what you want. Either accept that and take what you get, or don't get, with no expectations, or move on and look for someone who will give you what you want.

    You deserve more.
    Trish I stated above that we have now talked and agreed on a date to get together and that we have recently talked on the phone, in fact twice in the last 2/3 days, it's an ever changing situation and I have explained that in quite a lot of detail!

    Whilst I appreciate that people are saying these things with the best motivations I don't find it particularly helpful if they ignore some of the updates on the situation that I've posted and only focus on the negatives. Yes it's annoying that I've had to ask 3 times before getting the address but I have it now and again it's down to flakiness on her part rather than any ill intent. Whether I want to accept that level of flakiness is perhaps the more pertinent issue from my point of view to be honest because I don't doubt that she loves me and is wanting to have a relationship, it's whether or not she is capable of maintaining a relationship that's at issue for me not whether she's "just not that into" me.

    I'm getting a range of advice and insight from people who are objective and not all of them are saying the same as you are. Conversely I know her better than those objective people who are offering advice and whilst some are bang on the mark in my opinion others are way off to be frank and whilst I appreciate everyone's input it's ultimately my prerogative to listen the most to those I believe are closer to the mark than some others.

    Sorry I'm not trying to sound ungrateful for all the advice and comment but I'm feeling a little like the piggy in the middle at times now with some people suggesting she's talking me for a ride and I should end it and others telling me I should be more understanding and let it play out. I'm going for the being more understanding and accepting point of view at the moment but believe me if she reneges on something big like our newly agreed dates for meeting up I'll be be ending it forthwith with no excuses accepted!
    Quote Originally Posted by gorillagirl View Post
    Last Tango, go back and read Chronos' threads. As Trish said, she's just not that into you. Sorry to say...but when a person is in love and committed to you, there is no avoidance, passive aggression, secretiveness, ambiguity, etc...
    I looked at the thread and have to say I could see few similarities, what am I missing?
    Quote Originally Posted by degausser View Post
    I think it is constructive. You've made it clear that you aren't ready to call it quits, and I'm not judging (side note: autocorrect changed that to 'I'm into judging' which is freaking hilarious). But in any relationship, you need to be realistic and you need to think logically. You should be keeping a mental list of red flags, just so that you're fully aware of your situation. You can love her and you can try to make this work, but don't look at your relationship with love goggles.
    Fair point and as I say the big red flag will be any messing with the dates we now have for meeting up, we'll see what happens and I'll update on this thread (couple of weeks time) on that one.

  3. #48
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    theREALTrish is offline Senior Member
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    I've read every one of your posts but I did not see where you said you've agreed on a date to get together. All I saw was that the long distance will end because you are moving
    to where she is for your job.

    You may not like some of the advice that you've been given and it's completely up to you how you go about dealing with things. But, don't think that you can post the situation the way
    that you have and expect everyone to pat you on the head and tell you to hang in there. You presented a situation that would cause most people to think that this girl is not ready
    for a full-time committed relationship. Then when people pointed that out to you, you made excuses for her. That's also your perogative.

    Now it just seems like you've got an attitude towards anyone who asked you to question whether or not, as degausser so eloquently stated, you are looking at the relationship through "love goggles".

    As an aside, I've never suggested she's "taking you for a ride". My thoughts have always been that she's not completely committed to the relationship. That may have something to do with age, life experience, or how she actually feels about you.

    Here's some advice....whether on the internet or in real life....if you don't want people to give you their honest thoughts because you don't want to hear anything negative.....don't ask. (I learned that and I don't ask for advice....because I know I'm going to do it MY way).

    I really wish you the best of luck.
    Last edited by theREALTrish; 09-07-2013 at 12:42 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    ...it's annoying that I've had to ask 3 times before getting the address but I have it now and again it's down to flakiness on her part rather than any ill intent. Whether I want to accept that level of flakiness is perhaps the more pertinent issue from my point of view to be honest because I don't doubt that she loves me and is wanting to have a relationship, it's whether or not she is capable of maintaining a relationship that's at issue for me...

    ...the big red flag will be any messing with the dates we now have for meeting up, we'll see what happens and I'll update on this thread (couple of weeks time) on that one.
    I'm happy that you've managed to iron out some of the things which were causing you stress/anxiety. Just take a big breath, know your relationship deal breakers, make sure your "deal breakers" are healthy and realistic, and stay true to yourself by not making concessions on those points.

    I saw a sign in a yoga studio that resonated with me: "The truest reflection of your reverence for others is the way you treat yourself." It encouraged me to conduct a self-inventory of self care and self neglect.

    I think you're spot on with this comment:
    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    Whether I want to accept that level of flakiness is perhaps the more pertinent issue from my point of view...
    I think the following is a statement which may come across as more evaluative/judgmental than you intend
    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    ...whether or not she is capable of maintaining a relationship that's at issue for me...
    It is truly about whether or not you can accept "flakiness" in your long-term partner. My SO is flaky, his flakiness is a two-sided coin, and I had to choose my battles regarding the flakiness I can tolerate versus the flakiness I cannot. I also had to learn that his flakiness isn't indicative of a lack of caring or concern, nor does it serve as a barometer of our relationship. It's just the way the Good Lord put him together, plus a little re-arranging due to three or four concussions over the course of his life. When he was young, unless it killed you or made you "goofy", a concussion was regarded as being no big deal.

    Unfortunately, there's a great deal of carryover--flakiness in one area of life tends to indicate flakiness in others, but not always.

    It's important to me that the bills are paid on time, birthdays and holidays are acknowledged, appointments are kept, medication is taken, etc. Depending upon what it is, I will remind him the day before that the rent's due, the week before a birthday, or an hour after dinner that he needs to take his meds.

    It's important to me that shared objects are returned to their designated place when one is finished using them. Depending upon what it is--a personal item or a shared object--my expectation is either "put it back where you found it, like you found it" or "put it back where it belongs, clean and in working order, when you're done with it." If that expectation is not met, it's a deal breaker for me. That being said, I am capable of washing a knife that got put back after being wiped down (rather than washed) without getting my knickers in a twist. However, when I have to look in more than 3 places for the measuring cup, he *does* hear about it.

    With regard to his personal belongings, my expectations are that he not leave it where I can trip over it or bump into it, and that common areas remain livable. His closet, dresser drawers, bathroom cabinet, shed, whatever, can be in any state of chaos he so desires. I was recently pleased to note that after about 18 months of living together, when he removes his eyeglasses he is now in the habit of putting them in the same place every time.

    What color socks he's wearing or if he's wearing those godawful tie-dyed underpants are things I just don't have time to worry about. (The underpants aren't godawful because they're tie-dyed; I enjoy tie-dye. They're godawful because they were a gag gift and it was intended to be perhaps the worst tie-dye imaginable.)

    If he wants to wear a shirt that I think is garish and he loves for its bright colors and unique design, it's his shirt and he's the one who's wearing it. He isn't doing it to embarrass me; he's doing it because he likes that shirt. As a general rule, of his own volition he chooses to wear clothes that coordinate or complement the outfit I'm wearing when we go out together.

    He requires near-constant stimulation and bores easily; sometimes I find it exhausting, other times I find it irritating. In those moments, I just need to take a deep breath, get over my irritation and appreciate that this is the same attribute that helps him get over arguments and hurt feelings much faster than I do, and causes him to rarely hold a grudge.

    While I am fortunate if I can get him to repeat an enjoyable gastronomical experience by preparing the same meal the same way every time, dinner is an adventure and sex with him (when he's healthy enough for it) is definitely not the same old/same old.

    MM
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by theREALTrish View Post
    I've read every one of your posts but I did not see where you said you've agreed on a date to get together. All I saw was that the long distance will end because you are moving to where she is for your job.
    Apologies then, I genuinely thought I'd mentioned that.
    You may not like some of the advice that you've been given and it's completely up to you how you go about dealing with things. But, don't think that you can post the situation the way that you have and expect everyone to pat you on the head and tell you to hang in there. You presented a situation that would cause most people to think that this girl is not ready for a full-time committed relationship. Then when people pointed that out to you, you made excuses for her. That's also your perogative.
    I guess it is but again apologies if I'm sounding ungrateful.

    Genuine question, is putting the situation in context, as in mentioning she's been working 12/13 hour shifts over the summer and was definitely dropping on her feet etc, making excuses? I'm grappling with that one because I have told her that she makes too many excuses at one time or the other, am I doing the same thing and does context not matter so much in your opinion?
    Now it just seems like you've got an attitude towards anyone who asked you to question whether or not, as degausser so eloquently stated, you are looking at the relationship through "love goggles".
    I haven't denied that
    As an aside, I've never suggested she's "taking you for a ride". My thoughts have always been that she's not completely committed to the relationship. That may have something to do with age, life experience, or how she actually feels about you.
    Okay fair point and not a million miles away from my on feelings on the matter.
    Here's some advice....whether on the internet or in real life....if you don't want people to give you their honest thoughts because you don't want to hear anything negative.....don't ask. (I learned that and I don't ask for advice....because I know I'm going to do it MY way).
    Yup, again point taken, it's sometimes a bit too easy to take things wrong, or make points that are taken wrong on internet forums, not as bad as text though
    I really wish you the best of luck.
    Thank you

  6. #51
    degausser is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post

    Genuine question, is putting the situation in context, as in mentioning she's been working 12/13 hour shifts over the summer and was definitely dropping on her feet etc, making excuses? I'm grappling with that one because I have told her that she makes too many excuses at one time or the other, am I doing the same thing and does context not matter so much in your opinion?
    I know this was directed at Trish but I thought I'd offer my take as well. I do believe it's making excuses. Not like you shouldn't be sympathetic to her situation, because being busy and stressed is awful. We can all relate. But it isn't okay to neglect your relationships because of it.

    I think it's worth mentioning once, as you said, to put it into context. As opposed to "she's out partying all the time and not making time for me" or "she has very little going on at all and is not making time for me." But that can't be used as an excuse. And you shouldn't let yourself get into the habit of thinking that it's okay for her to be flakey whenever she has things going on. Since you are quite defensive of her, I would think it especially easy for you to get into that habit.

  7. #52
    gorillagirl Guest
    i think you should keep a calendar of your relationship so you can see it in "black and white" and have a tool for objectivity.
    just try it for 30-45 days. buy a set of colored markers (cheap now, back to school) to write it out.

    this is something you would do daily.

    code it somehow for :
    i initiated contact (IIC) red
    she replied to my contact on the same day (SRC) orange
    she did not reply to my contact on the same day (IDR) yellow
    she initiated contact (SIC) green
    i replied to her contact on the same day (IRC) blue
    i did not reply to her contact on the same day (SDR) purple.

    meaning, if you text her on monday and she does not reply on monday, it's red/yellow.
    if you text her on monday (she doesn't reply, red/yellow) and she texts back on tuesday (and you reply tuesday) ,then on tuesday, it's green/blue.
    what you are looking for is how often you get red/orange vs. how often you get red/yellow (meaning you initiates/she replies same day or you initiate/she does not reply same day) AS WELL AS how often *she* initiates (green/blue or green/purple)
    and just chart to see how that goes.

    i know it will be hard for "gray areas" such as you contacting her on a monday and her not replying until wednesday. you'll have to figure out something that works for you for when she doesn't reply for 2-3 days about some pending issue. but you'll see patterns.

    this can also be done with happy/sad faces but it's not as precise.
    she's red, you're green or whatever.
    you contact her, you put a green happy face, she contacts back ON THE SAME DAY, you put a red happy face.
    you contact her, you put a green happy face, she does not contact you back ON THE SAME DAY,you put a red frowning face.
    she contacts you, you put a red happy face, you contact her back ON THE SAME DAY, you put a green happy face.
    she contacts you, you put a red happy face, you do not contact her back ON THE SAME DAY, you put a green frowning face.
    or whatever.

    find a way to track it. then if you want to discuss her lack of reciprocity, you can actually show her the data.
    Last edited by gorillagirl; 09-07-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by degausser View Post
    I know this was directed at Trish but I thought I'd offer my take as well. I do believe it's making excuses. Not like you shouldn't be sympathetic to her situation, because being busy and stressed is awful. We can all relate. But it isn't okay to neglect your relationships because of it.

    I think it's worth mentioning once, as you said, to put it into context. As opposed to "she's out partying all the time and not making time for me" or "she has very little going on at all and is not making time for me." But that can't be used as an excuse. And you shouldn't let yourself get into the habit of thinking that it's okay for her to be flakey whenever she has things going on. Since you are quite defensive of her, I would think it especially easy for you to get into that habit.
    My thoughts, exactly.

    LT, if you were truly being so understanding of her work situation as the cause of her lack of communication, you wouldn't have posted here in the first place. I'm not suggesting you aren't
    being understanding enough. I'm just pointing out how you presented things. As degausser said, stress and an intense work schedule doesn't make it ok to neglect a relationship. Of course, she may assume that you know the situation and would lower your expectations (again, I'm not saying you should). If she was a mature young woman, she would express her gratitude for your understanding during this trying time....not just ignore you.

    Hopefully, once you are no longer long distance, this will all just be a blip in the grand scheme of the relationship.
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  9. #54
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    Guys, thanks for all the above.

    Just to make sure we understand the situation I haven't said that she doesn't contact me on a daily basis, she does but it's by text. There are usually a lot of text messages bouncing back an forth and even when she was working she'd bounce texts to me when she got up, in her breaks during the day and after work. The issue I think is the quality of the communication where the texts even when I know she has time are hurried and when she's distracted sporadic, when she was working the days off were actually often worse for communication than her days working ironically! (I can guess what you'll say about that and yes my thinking was the same )

    Add to that the seeming reluctance to use other forms of communication and that's my issue, little quality time given and lots of grabbed moments whilst distracted. That has improved in the last couple of days although the texts are still often hurried and there are long spaces in conversations when she could easily have taken a moment to tell me she was busy and couldn't text, I've told her often enough it irritates me. What I'm doing now when I think enough is enough is I'll tell her that's it for the day or I'll leave a similar gap myself and just stick to superficial chit chat, ignoring anything that requires a more in depth dialogue or I'll insist we take that kind of stuff to either phone or IM. Of course it is always me who initiates other forms of communication but she's being more cooperative which I guess is a step forward but we'll see how that goes once her course starts properly next week and there are more 'social' distractions!

  10. #55
    gorillagirl Guest
    well, maybe it's time you tell her you'd like to hear her voice every day or chat via skype/video and voice and then use my calendaring suggestion?? texting completely destroyed one relationship i had.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    The issue I think is the quality of the communication where the texts (even when I know she has time) are hurried and when she's distracted sporadic, when she was working the days off were actually often worse for communication than her days working ironically! (I can guess what you'll say about that and yes my thinking was the same )
    By it's very nature, communication via text messaging is guaranteed to come across as hurried and sporadic.

    On my days off, I too am much less likely to reply to text messages than during the work week. At work, my personal cell phone is set to silent and placed "face up" in my line of sight at my workstation. On my days off, my phone could be anywhere--in my purse, on my bedside table, or where I charge it. I am notorious for forgetting to turn the ringer on when I come home, until it's time to set my alarm at bedtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    Add to that the seeming reluctance to use other forms of communication and that's my issue, little quality time given and lots of grabbed moments whilst distracted. That has improved in the last couple of days although the texts are still often hurried and there are long spaces in conversations when she could easily have taken a moment to tell me she was busy and couldn't text, I've told her often enough it irritates me.
    Remember my earlier comment about cell phones not being the human equivalent of those remote controlled "zapper" dog training collars?

    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    What I'm doing now when I think enough is enough is I'll tell her that's it for the day or I'll leave a similar gap myself and just stick to superficial chit chat, ignoring anything that requires a more in depth dialogue or I'll insist we take that kind of stuff to either phone
    This is good!

    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    or IM.
    This is not.

    In my not-so-humble opinion, IM isn't much better than text messaging. IM, chat, and text messaging are equivalent to leaving a post-it note on the fridge or passing notes in class.

    Email is the equivalent of a letter or longer note. It's for more involved communication than chat, IM or text message, but it's not a "conversation" in the same sense as a telephone, skype or face-to-face conversation.

    If you want a conversation, you need to use a communications medium which supports conversation--telephone, skype, or face-to-face meeting. Offering an alternative that doesn't support the end you hope to achieve (a conversation) paves the way for a situation in which she does as you ask, yet still fails to meet your expectations.

    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    Of course it is always me who initiates other forms of communication but she's being more cooperative which I guess is a step forward but we'll see how that goes once her course starts properly next week and there are more 'social' distractions!
    In my own relationship, I feel like I am the one who always initiates certain forms of contact. Sometimes, I miss his "I want to have a deep, meaningful conversation" cues. Other times, there are no cues for me to miss--I guess I was supposed to psychically sense his need to talk to me. Most of the time, I am the one who initiates those situations because I have a greater need for that type of communication than he does.

    Reward the communications behaviors you want to be present in your relationship, and don't acknowledge the remaining behaviors. Don't acknowledge it, other than to offer the other person a choice between two equally acceptable alternatives:
    Example 1: I'll be happy to discuss this by phone. Would you like to call me now, or would you like me to phone you now?
    Example 2: I'll be happy to discuss this by phone. Would you like to call me at 7, or at 8?
    No making snide comments about it, or having a sulk, or initiating consequences for it.

    You're also up against the communication patterns of what I call "Generation Text." Employers, businesses and educators are noting that those communication patterns--posting something on fb or sending a text, and calling that "communication"--represent a major obstacle in written and oral communication skills. This communication style negatively affects their reading, writing, speaking and listening skills--as well as has a deleterious effect on other forms of social interaction. "Generation Text" is not well served by their reliance upon texting and lack of face to face contact. We're starting to see that there's a whole lot of life that they cannot successfully navigate--school, the business environment, the workplace--because even though there's probably an app for that, it really can't be done via text message or fb post.

    MM
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorillagirl View Post
    well, maybe it's time you tell her you'd like to hear her voice every day or chat via skype/video and voice and then use my calendaring suggestion??
    Yes a bit more of that would be good although every day might be a bit onerous.

    I presume by skype you mean video/voice rather than text messaging?
    texting completely destroyed one relationship i had.
    Really, that sounds horrendous, hope you don't mind me asking but anything similar to my issues?

  13. #58
    LastTango is offline Member
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    Thanks for all of that MM, all really useful stuff and it clarifies a few things too.

  14. #59
    gorillagirl Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    Really, that sounds horrendous, hope you don't mind me asking but anything similar to my issues?
    Only in a private conversation.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastTango View Post
    Thanks for all of that MM, all really useful stuff and it clarifies a few things too.
    We're starting to see more and more young people in the workplace who can't use standard business English in email (it's peppered with omg, idk, l8r and the like), can't take basic "while you were out" messages, can't follow the rhetorical strategies utilized in written business communications/procedures manuals and so forth, can't tell the difference between what's appropriate to discuss via email versus face-to-face (for starters, email leaves a PERMANENT record--even if you delete it), and are something akin to phobic re: face-to-face communication. They can't sit still, can't make eye contact, can't focus on the task at hand. Rather than perform one task well, they do several things badly and then claim to be proficient at "multi-tasking."

    MM
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