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Thread: The Cardinal Rules to VYM Relationships

  1. #151
    truckman Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by shygrly38 View Post
    But I expect a guy to take care of me
    Quote Originally Posted by shygrly38 View Post
    but I feel that a guy should naturally take on most of the financial burdens.
    Quote Originally Posted by shygrly38 View Post
    AM I BEING USED?
    With that as your purported expection of men you've probably been demoted from "parter" to "housepet" in a hurry.

    Most men these days want a true partner, an equal, a teammate. Most men do not want to date or marry a financial liability.

    We'd rather have a motorcycle, sports car, or a dog.

    Thank you for making me appreciate my highly-motivated, forward-thinking, incredibly intelligent girlfriend a little more today. Excuse me while I go buy her some flowers.

  2. #152
    shygrly38 Guest
    Holy crud, based on truckman's comment I guess what I said and what I'm about to say may offend some people. But to each his own. My comment was as to a YM and OW relationship/interaction and what my concers were about that subject, and not a social commentary. But since you made a comment, here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by truckman View Post
    With that as your purported expection of men you've probably been demoted from "parter" to "housepet" in a hurry.
    To each his own. I don't mean to offend you, but why not? Traditional male/female relationships still exist and work. My parents have been married for over 40 years (obviously LOL), and this type of relationship obviously works for them, and my BF has been raised the same way - that's a very big part of why we are together. I just don't want him to get used to me paying for stuff and then forget his traditional upbringing.

    Most men these days want a true partner, an equal, a teammate. Most men do not want to date or marry a financial liability.
    Although I want someone to take on more of the financial burden, if situations should arise where I need to be the primary earner, I have more than the capability to do so. When I did this for my exhusband, he became depressed, so I think a man naturally want to be the primary bread winner. Men and women are equal but have different roles, as it should be. Every strong man has an equally strong woman behind him. My guy should be the leader of our household (but shhhh, the woman is actually in charge - and yes, I still watch Leave it to Beaver LOL). Although your "equal" lifestyle might work for you, it does not work for me.

    We'd rather have a motorcycle, sports car, or a dog.
    How sad that one should want a motorcycle, sports car, or a dog instead of a loving doting wife. Besides, I think we're much better in bed and riding us is way more fun, or it should be. LMAO Besides, your dog wouldn't bring you breakfast in bed in a tray - or does it? ) I know, I'm making you sick huh?

    Thank you for making me appreciate my highly-motivated, forward-thinking, incredibly intelligent girlfriend a little more today. Excuse me while I go buy her some flowers.
    If your forward thinking works for you, I am happy for you, really and I'm sure you guys are happy. I have traditional roles ingrained in me, and that's what I'm looking for. Just because I am in fact the highly-motivated (albeit old fashioned girl) incredibly intelligent girl (LOL), I don't want him to think he should just slack financially. In fact, I think someone made a comment that the older GF should expect the same thing from a young BF that she would expect from an older man. I've never been in a serious relationship with a much younger guy, so I don't know if it will work for me - that's why I'm on this site - to find out what I should expect.

    So, I think I will buy myself some flowers today. Oh, and for my mom. LOL Happy holidays BTW.

  3. #153
    truckman Guest
    I am not offended in the least.

    Like you, I was raised to heavily value and define expected "roles" in a relationship. Due to my upbringing, it's likely I was taught to define these roles far more rigidly and precisely than just about anyone here, including you.

    The thing is, over the 25 years I've been considered a man (legally and otherwise), I over time realized how irrelevent and ridiculous those roles and definitions of such roles are and what is truly important - In my mind what makes a relationship work, truly work, is both people doing "whatever it takes". That applies to money, responsibility, workload, love, nuture, caretaking, empathy, everything.

    To me, anything short of that, immediately brings out the "housepet" nomenclature.

    With "roles" comes "expectations". With "expectations" comes upset when people fail. When upset and failure occur, it's very difficult to be a true "team".

    "whatever it takes".

  4. #154
    shygrly38 Guest
    With "roles" comes "expectations". With "expectations" comes upset when people fail. When upset and failure occur, it's very difficult to be a true "team".

    "whatever it takes".[/QUOTE]

    -----------

    Wow, that's an excellent perspective, both beautiful and wise. I'll think about it. But seriously, I think he should be Rudolph and I can be Vixen. He can lead but we'll pull together. He actually loves the way I view things, so it works for us. If we were even to even, I probably would not have been the girl for him. But he and I seem to be going down a slippery slope in that he's getting used to my financial capability and I don't want him to forget his. You seem very happy in your relationship and I have high hopes that maybe my OW/YM relationship will work.

    I seriously think that despite my 38 years and your 25, you are more mature than me! LOL

  5. #155
    truckman Guest
    I've been a grown up for 25 years... but I was a kid before that for 18

    I am 43.

    My g/f isn't 21 until feb!

  6. #156
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    I was raised with traditional values too.. but traditions change. Mostly due to reality.. having your **** taxed off until you NEED two incomes to survive tends to change tradition.

    We're a team but I won't accept Chris paying more than his fair share, and we're working out just what that means before he moves here.. and while I may pay more now, he will very likely pay more later, when I retire. It's a long term deal.
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  7. #157
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    When I have googled age-gap relationships one of the "pluses" that invariably pop up as the writer is listing "positives" about being in one (where the guy is much younger) is that the older woman is most likely financially independent, is finished having her family, and does not expect the young man to give her a wedding ring. This scenario would be the opposite of someone the guy's age who wants to have children which would, in turn, make the guy financially responsible for other people other than himself. He would be financially responsible for her, as well, if she decides she is taking care of the children full-time. Issues which would factor into this are breast-feeding/maternal bonding. If one is to add up the time spent in childcare, housekeeping, and so on, it is quite a bit. This is otherwise known as "unpaid labor". Naturally there are families in which the roles (other than breastfeeding!) are reversed, and the woman is the full-time bread-winner. There may be women who are fine with the scenario where they are in an uncommitted relationship with a younger man who basically wants to fool around and doesn't want any commitment at that time. There are also women who like being in committed relationships regardless of the age of their guy. These woman may want their men to contribute to the household income, as well, even if they are financially established enough to pay for both of them. This could possibly be a residual attitude from needing a male to bring food while the woman is busy with traditional maternal stuff--being pregnant and unable to do certain tasks, busy with childcare (feeding the child etc). Women might even want to have children if they are in a committed relationship, much like younger women may want. So some of the stereotypes of the benefits of being with an older woman as being able to get lots of stuff for free do not apply. That being said, I get the feeling that the younger men on this site are very committed to their women and are not in the relationship for a free ride.

  8. #158
    Angel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliza View Post
    That being said, I get the feeling that the younger men on this site are very committed to their women and are not in the relationship for a free ride.
    My husband married me after I became disabled and with an out of control teenager in the home. He definitely wasn't looking for a free or even easy ride!

    So far he's been a stand up guy, but I realize as time goes on another cardinal rule that may have been written but with all these pages I had long forgotten. It is important for the older woman to make time to let him be wild & young (of course within the guidelines of the relationship). My husband has been so busy being a father & stepparent he's had little time to just be 23. I expect so much out of him that sometimes I need to just step back and remember he's just 23 and not closer to my age (37).

    While I know we all want to be equals, fact is we aren't and never will be complete equals because of the age gap. At least that is why I believe to be true for my relationship. We really are at different stages of our lives and our love for each other is why we find a common ground within each stage, but, still, he deserves to age and not develop a big ball of regret years from now for everything he sacrificed for loving an older woman. That's the lesson I'm learning right now. I guess we never stop learning how to love and understand each other a bit better than we did yesterday.
    there before the threshold, I saw a brighter world beyond myself

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  9. #159
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    I agree completely Angel. I'd add one more thing to that though. Not everyone ages the same or experiences their "twenties" the same. I've spent a lot of time over the last few *cough* years with Dev trying to encourage him to have what I would have described as "normal" relationships with other 20-somethings. No matter what I've endorsed, supported, encouraged, and even set-up... Devon has not made close friends who are his age. He does not go out with other 20-somethings. He doesn't go listen to bands or go to bars.

    He does have 2 best friends that he's extremely close to. They are dads with kids the same age as Lydia & Noah. They are in their early 40s. They have common interests in soccer (kids) and hockey (professional lol) and we see his friends (and mine) every week pretty much. One of these "dads" is even also a gamer. When we fight (and god knows we do), he has friends he can and does turn to. If he goes to a concert, its to see Niel Diamond or someone like that (yea he's got really "cool" taste in music ROFL!).

    None of those things were true about me when I was in my twenties and I was a mother by then. None of those things are true about how my older two are experiencing their twenties. But this is how Devon is experiencing his and there is nothing wrong with that (at least this is what I keep telling myself and reminding myself). When I express concern and regret to Dev that he's missing out on things he'd look back on later, he vehemently denies this. He's got buddies. He's working through school. He does the things he enjoys. If he had not met me, the only thing different about how he'd have spent his time is that it would have been at his parent's house and more time gaming with less time socializing. Who knows? He can't really know that, but he thinks so. I've talked about this with my in-laws too. They assure me that not everyone needs the same things. Devon's choice in a partner demonstrates that he's not looking for the same experience as most 20-somethings. He's got the things that matter most... a family, friends, and a future.
    Psycho hatchet wielding midgets deserve to die

  10. #160
    rosiecotton Guest
    While my ym acted much older than his years when we first got together (and still does), my expectations of him were not the same as if he had been older than me. I think it is a mistake to expect young men (especially vym) to be able to have the same earning power as an older man. And I think it's unfair to put pressure on people of that age to financially provide beyond their means.

    When my ym first moved in with me he was 18 and out of work, he struggled to find a job and was unemployed for almost a year. But he tried hard - he didn't just sit on his butt, which was important. While I fully appreciate he would never be a high roller at his age, I also didn't expect him to be a lazy turd. He was doing the best he could with the experience and tools that he had, and that was the main thing.

    Now, he is working full time and has been for nearly five years, I have changed jobs and now earn less than him, and in September I am giving up work to go back to university to qualify as a social worker, and he will be supporting me to do that.

    What goes around comes around!

    Ellethe, like your Devon, my Andrew has not made friends his own age around here. All his friends are in their mid 30s.

  11. #161
    eliza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcy View Post
    Well there certainly is a very strong anti-cheating tone to the community here and unfortunately there are a lot of members that believe that relationships with vym are doomed to failure and heartache.

    We do what we gotta do though right? You aren't required to take anyone's advice here. Take what you want to heart and leave the rest.
    really love that comment. It's all about the Law of Attraction

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcy View Post
    And there in lies the rub I think... when you post an assumption (unless stated otherwise... ie I'm venting or Introduction, etc etc) is that you are looking for advice. The fact is that most folks do not want advice. They just really want other people to say, "yea you are doing the right thing... go for it", permission so to speak. Thing is we can't control what other folks say or think and lots of them are likely going to disagree with our actions to some extent. Can't be helped especially in a community this large with people of all kinds of different experiences. I think there is an element of this involved when we try to correct our original posts too.

    For example, in the heat of the moment, I post here and give entirely my side of the story and a lot of really negative stuff about my guy. I get a lot of replies that say leave the bum. No surprise there. Later I think it over and cool off. I come back here and back pedal A LOT. He's not a bum. I didn't paint him accurately. He's supportive and wonderful and etc, etc, etc. Unfortunately, Nobody here knows him... only me and I gave a pretty poor picture of him in the first place. It looks like I am making up excuses to stay with him when he's really a bum and I am afraid of being lonely or w/e.

    I think this kinda thing happens a lot. It reminds me of my oldest daughter. One time she came to me very upset when she was in Jr High. She was fighting with her best friend. She started to tell me all of these REAALLY hateful things her girlfriend had said. I stopped her and said, "Honey, in 2 days you will have made up with Patty. You won't recall any of these terrible things that you have told me. You will love her again. I, on the other hand, being invested in YOU and not Patty will remember every awful thing and it will really color how I look at her. Is this what you want? Because when you give the gloom and doom to another, who doesn't know any better, its almost impossible to take it back and correct it." She thought it over for a 1/2 a second and said yea... you are right. I don't want Patty to be thought of as only her worst moment, but as all of her moments. Its true. We want those we loved to also be loved by others, sometimes they will be and sometimes they won't be.

    My point is it is hard to go back and re-direct your posts once you have made them and since we don't know each other here all anyone can go by is what you have written yourself...
    Ahh, I have experienced this a great deal, lol. In my case there really were alot of red flags, but i had to live my own life and make my own mistakes to figure that out...I have friends who forbid me to talk about him because in the past several days after a falling out we'd be back together, just as tight as ever. There's alot of wisdom to what you're saying.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasergirl View Post
    I have to say that I have never been more impressed than I am with the intelligence I see from posters here. I came looking for advice, reassurance and hope for myself, and have certainly managed to get all of that and more from each of you! Some posts I have responded to directly, others I have benifited from just in reading Your sincerity, wisdom and non-judgemental outlook is just what I have been looking for. I am as new to this website as I am new to this concept (OW/YM) but feel I have come across folks with the kind of substance that builds lasting friendships! Thank you.

    Back to this thread.....When I stop to think about what it is I want in a man, I realize that those characteristice I deem most important are not related to age at all. I realize that questioning an AG relationship is merely succumbing to social norms, and caring too much about what other people think. It is nothing more than FEAR! It is something I truly hope to change about myself. I am learning to think "outside the box". I read somewhere, and may have already posted on another thread, a quote that I came across recently that made an impact on me: "sometimes we have to exceed the boundaries of common sense to have an uncommon experience". My "Prince Charming" or "Soulmate" if such a thing truly exists, would be someone I knew to be honest, sincere, open-minded, loyal, kind, loving, and possess the courage of conviction to those qualities. I have found all of these things in one YM-while I am still in the earliest stages of getting to know him, he has certainly sparked my interest-and age has nothing to do with it!
    I can really relate to this comment. This site is a really wonderful trove of wisdom and knowledge. I wish I spent more time reading the comments, but when I do sit down every so often and read through threads I feel blessed to have stumbled upon such a community, because what I read has arisen out of authentic experiences. Keep it coming.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by prayerwheel View Post
    Hmmm, I just saw that my last (and probably first as well) posting was almost a year ago. Times flies when you're dating a YM
    I was just scratching the surface of this 'strange new world' then, my "uncomfortable" feelings softened by copious amounts of reading on "the OW/YM subject", this site providing a great deal of support.
    I would never have guessed I'd be back here however, thinking I was probably going through another one of my "phases", but, alas...
    It will be a year this Thursday a celebration of some sort will be taking place to honor the relationship I have been in with my YM, and yes, we're actually in the same town, this is not a LD thing.
    A year if you don't count the probably 4 months worth of time I've spent breaking up with him only to realize, after being relentlessly pursued (as mentioned in many of the previous posts here) over and over how much I care about him and how much more fun my life is with him in it.
    I could write a novella tonight about subjects I would like to get feedback on from all of you "veterans" but I will try to spread them out so as not to bore anyone to tears and truncate them as much as possible.
    What is particularly sensitive and a bit sting-y as my title refers, is the "Dirty little secret" concept. I feel that way quite often. Although there are some cultural differnces that are very foreign (pardon the pun) to me. He is Romanian and says that if he brings a woman home to meet his family it means for marriage. This is something I have been struggling with for awhile but I have had several friends who have dated/married certain European/Mid Eastern etc. men who agree with what he says. I have ALWAYS been swiftly introduced to the families of ALL my previous beaus (all American)because they were proud to show me off so this is very different and difficult for me.
    He also doesn't have a lot of friends but I have yet to meet any of them. I have introduced him to most of my friends and yes, I do put up with some ribbing but whatever,it's my life...
    I didn't read through all the posts on this thread but look forward to doing so, time permitting. I would really like to hear about anyone who's experienced this "Dirty Little Secret" thing and how they handled it.
    Thanks to all on here who make this a comfortable place to land :-)
    A
    While no one can tell you what to do, let me say that what you're saying sounds, earily so, like it was taken out of a page of my own book of experiences with my former ym....It was apparent quite early into the relationship. After he told his parents about me they forbade him to introduce us as a couple to their friends or members within the Jewish community that we may have potentially bumped into while out and about together. The first time this---paradigm, if you will, was presented to me, I said "no effin way". Said ym would try to smooth things over, but was very much prone to the dictates of his parents (which, of course, indicated his own inability to be in a relationship, period, but I digress....). No matter how many times he would say that it was ok, we could be a public couple, when it came right down to it he would back down! one time we were walking hand-in-hand to a Starbucks and he worriedly pulled his hand from mine because he was afraid there might be people he knew there...I engaged in this craziness for close to two years before I finally said "screw it, I'm out'a here". Just letting you know how long stuff like this can go on.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by special K View Post
    Just thinking about the title of this thread and where it's gone, I wanted to add another post of input, so many years later after the breakup with my vym in 2003.

    Historically here at ageless, the abbreviation "VYM" has meant "Very Young Man" between the ages of 18-21. The distinction was first made primarily because many OW here saw/felt there was a unique set of components that may influence an AGR with a vym: in general.... their very young age, their possible lack of maturity and/or adult life experiences, hormonal/sexual fervency, and the fact that a relationship with an OW may be their FIRST EVER adult relationship in some cases.

    After my own vym/ow relationship imploded, and as I watched countless other vym/ow couplings here at ageless implode as well, I had a lot of time for introspection -and the wisdom of hindsight- to teach me what I needed to learn. From that, I'd like to post a list here of, what I think, are the Cardinal Rules of giving an agr with a vym the best chance of survival. Obviously, nothing is set in stone, and no two people are alike. Some VYM may be ready at 18 or 19 to decide on (and stay with ) a life partner...many are not. But, it seems that the track record of a viable long term relationship, here at ageless at least, is enhanced when most items on the list below are present:

    1. The VYM does not still live at home with his parents (whether he's on his own, with roomates, in college housing, etc....but he has a life and identity separate from being under his parent's rule)

    2. The VYM has a tenacious spirit of independence...he doesn't care about others' judgments of him, and is not swayed by opinions of friends and family in personal issues of lifestyle and healthy choices (this does NOT mean that he doesn't listen to guidance and loving input from important people in his life; it just means that HE makes the final decisions about his future)

    3. The VYM is able to support himself (student loans count in this equation, if he is in school)...just that he doesn't rely on his parents for all/most of his financial support for basic living or college expenses (this can be used against him as a bargaining chip if the parents disagree with any of his choices in life).

    4. The VYM has had a previous adult relationship with someone 18 or older

    5. The VYM is willing (and excited) to be openly public about a relationship
    with you, and will stand up for it against all scrutiny from anyone
    important in his life. (this reflects back to him having a tenacious
    independence)

    6. The VYM has a strong sense of personal integrity in that he presses on in his goals and ambitions that were in place before he met you (finish his degree, move up in his career, foster great friendships with the good people in his life before he met you, etc.). It can be a red flag if a VYM wants to give up everything to be with you...his education, his friends, his life goals, his family, his hometown,etc. THAT is a big burden for the OW, who theoretically, now must be his "everything". That scenario can foster resentment in one or both people a few years down the road.

    VYM, by the nature of their younger age, may more likely be influenced by factors that promote impulsive decisions. That is why the best advice here, and FOR ANY RELATIONSHIP really, is to GO SLOWLY. Take your time, don't rush to move him into your home, or across the ocean...get to know each other for a couple of years and make sure you are BOTH autonomous, strong individuals first before entangling your lives in ways that are hard to untangle.

    No OW I know of here or in real life has ever benefited in the long run by being a vym's sole financial provider (even though you "love him" and just want things to be easier for him),his only social connection (he's turned his back on all friends and family to be with you, and is not making new ones), the director of his life. Very young people of both sexes need to stretch their OWN wings first before they can be good partners for someone else. If, as an OW, you allow that to happen, the outcome can be very good.

    ...my updated 2 cents
    Really good, think I'll paste this somewhere where I can refer to it from time to time.

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