Thread: The Cardinal Rules to VYM Relationships

Originally Posted by Kristin

You can't deny that, for most people, experience contributes to one's maturity and behavior. I mean, what is "maturity" anyhow?

It was experiencing different things and learning from those experiences which helped me grow and mature. Someone who has never been through certain things will be less likely to react to them in a mature way.

It must take some effort to go through life experiencing things and not learning anything from those experiences!

Having to run a household and not having anyone to bail me out when I screwed up. Having to raise children and seeing how my behavior affected them. Being through multiple relationships and seeing how my behavior (and his) affected the relationship. Learning that the world doesn't revolve around me. LOL!

All of those experiences lead to my learning from them and therefore learning how to handle things in a "mature" manner, rather than freaking out or running away from the problem, as we tend to do in our youth.

I still think that younger guys, while maybe able to be a "good person" and not be self-centered or whatnot are still handicapped by their lack of life experience.

Jeremy is a great guy and he treats me with respect and love, yet he often defers decisions to me, because of my experience. That can be really frustrating sometimes when I'M the one who needs help! LOL! And sometimes, that makes me feel like I have to be the bad guy in saying, "No" to some things.

I know that, once he experiences some of these things, he'll be more ready to make those decisions on his own and handle them in a more mature manner.

Those are great points, Kristin! You are both dealing with raising children, etc. Phil and I don't have such critical decisions to make.

I try not to let Phil defer decisions to me. If he needs help in deciding something, I'll try to "walk him through" the first time, if I can. He needs to operate with autonomy.

We both try hard to keep a balance in our relationship, since the older partner could certainly get an upper hand due to stronger finances, experience, etc.

All your comments are so good.

I think that when you are beginning relationships there is trial/error period where you are measuring each other up...are we friends, not friends, are we attracted to each other, etc.

Based on those feelings that we have/get, we judge our relationship at different stages. We do it with friendships as well. At some point we come to a decision that brings us to our next step. We get closer, back off, whatever.

Getting closer could mean a myriad of things....I think at this point, if we're realistic, we KNOW when there is a mutual attraction, usually via his actions, it becomes clearer. I believe that a man must make those first initial contact/flirtateous moves. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't be the one to start flirting first... whatever turns you on.. But he should be making the moves; he's asked you to lunch several times, or out to dinner or movies or you're meeting at the gym or whatever.. He wants to spend time with you away from others, is a good clue that lets you know he's interested.

The next move could be yours, all yours, like a chess game.


On the other hand...... if something else worked for you, more power to you!!

I still think that younger guys, while maybe able to be a "good person" and not be self-centered or whatnot are still handicapped by their lack of life experience.

Yup, Kristen....I agree totally and would add "lack of relationship experience" into the mix of components that tend to be things that need to be "grown through" toward maturity in vym.

Having been in an OW/vym relationship in the past, my wisdom in hindsight is:

1. Do not support them financially, give or "loan" them money, sign on car titles, or anything else involving money (either directly or indirectly). They need to make their own way financially without being "helped along" by a well-meaning, older girlfriend. Remember, if you were both 19, you wouldn't be footin the bill for him, would you?. Women need to expect the same financial independence from their vybf's as they would from older or same age boyfriends. If you don't heed this warning, there could be lots of regret later...and sadly, even resentment from him in many cases. He needs to mature in the area of finances as in other areas...if he can only afford to take you to Mc Donald's, he will feel much better there (as a man) than at a sushi bar where you cover the $50 check. If you take trips together, have him pay his fair share...and budget it so that that is possible, etc.

Originally Posted by special K

Yup, Kristen....I agree totally and would add "lack of relationship experience" into the mix of components that tend to be things that need to be "grown through" toward maturity in vym.

Having been in an OW/vym relationship in the past, my wisdom in hindsight is:

1. Do not support them financially, give or "loan" them money, sign on car titles, or anything else involving money (either directly or indirectly). They need to make their own way financially without being "helped along" by a well-meaning, older girlfriend. Remember, if you were both 19, you wouldn't be footin the bill for him, would you?. Women need to expect the same financial independence from their vybf's as they would from older or same age boyfriends. If you don't heed this warning, there could be lots of regret later...and sadly, even resentment from him in many cases. He needs to mature in the area of finances as in other areas...if he can only afford to take you to Mc Donald's, he will feel much better there (as a man) than at a sushi bar where you cover the $50 check. If you take trips together, have him pay his fair share...and budget it so that that is possible, etc.

I am in complete agreement with you. Phil lives with me part-time but he pays all his other expenses...medical, car, car insurance, school expenses, clothing, etc. I will pay for meals now and then but when he has money he pays for them as well. I think it's important for a person's own sense of self-worth to be able to stand on their own financially as much as possible.

Originally Posted by bubbleee

Those are great points, Kristin! You are both dealing with raising children, etc. Phil and I don't have such critical decisions to make.

I try not to let Phil defer decisions to me. If he needs help in deciding something, I'll try to "walk him through" the first time, if I can. He needs to operate with autonomy.

We both try hard to keep a balance in our relationship, since the older partner could certainly get an upper hand due to stronger finances, experience, etc.

I'm really having a hard time with this, recently.

I'm going through some hard times right now and some of these things are new to me, as well. Sometimes I wish that he were more knowledgeable about some things so I could lean on HIM. I wish he had "been there, done that" or at least have other experiences to go by that he would be able to give advice or at least work it out with me. He's just at a loss, although he tries.

I have to turn to my parents for advice instead. Luckily, I have this support.

Granted, there could be a lot of guys my own age who would be just as clueless - my ex for example. He was always lost and I had always to make the decisions. I just hate being in that situation again. But, at least Jeremy is learning. I can tell he won't be helpless forever - he just needs experience to learn from.

1. Do not support them financially, give or "loan" them money, sign on car titles, or anything else involving money (either directly or indirectly). They need to make their own way financially without being "helped along" by a well-meaning, older girlfriend. Remember, if you were both 19, you wouldn't be footin the bill for him, would you?. Women need to expect the same financial independence from their vybf's as they would from older or same age boyfriends. If you don't heed this warning, there could be lots of regret later...and sadly, even resentment from him in many cases. He needs to mature in the area of finances as in other areas...if he can only afford to take you to Mc Donald's, he will feel much better there (as a man) than at a sushi bar where you cover the $50 check. If you take trips together, have him pay his fair share...and budget it so that that is possible, etc.

So would you give older men this same advice when it comes to helping younger women financially, or does this only apply to older women and younger men?

If she has any self-respect, she'd refuse the money, but I think (both ways) it depends on the relationship.

Jeremy and I have our funds so co-mingled that it's hard to tell who has what. We choose to pool our money. I get bigger paychecks, but commission checks are sporadic and he gets smaller, regular checks.

When we first started dating, I would loan him money, but only after the first time when he paid me back right away, did I feel comfortable with it. He was trying to get on his feet and get his own apartment.

I think I would be wary of giving money to ANY AGE man - it isn't about age. My last BF (0M - 40 yrs old) almost sucked me dry and now I am financially unstable because of it.

To be fair, she did say this:

Women need to expect the same financial independence from their vybf's as they would from older or same age boyfriends.

I think (both ways) it depends on the relationship.

Explain what you mean by this, please.

Originally Posted by Mark

So would you give older men this same advice when it comes to helping younger women financially, or does this only apply to older women and younger men?

*I* would give those men that same advice.

I don't see that there's any good in fostering any partner's dependence.

However, I would bet that most older (and some young/er) guys not only accept their woman's dependence, they are trained to encourage it. This puts them in a control position, and many guys still think they need to make sure they have the upper hand. It isn't what I would call a recipe for a great relationship, but a lot of people can't abide the idea of equal partnership because of their inbuilt insecurities.

But, in a very good partnership, there's nothing wrong with people of either gender helping -each other- alternately if they have to to reach their common goals, or with one helping the other to *achieve* something that will end up benefiting both.

There is a difference between handouts just to cover shortfalls, and, say, co-signing on an educational loan for a professional program that will keep on giving so that the partner with less can contribute more thereafter.

It's not just a cut-and-dried issue, one has to consider many factors. And IMO, gender really isn't one of them, although the fact is that women are still paid less than men, overall, for the same work, AND younger guys tend to make less than older guys. So there will on average be more financial strain on OW/YM if the guy isn't pulling his weight.

Well I can't and won't speak for Kristin, but this is how I see it.

Phil needs to learn how to manage money, live within his means, etc. What if we broke up tomorrow? Who is going to take "care of him" if he can't take care of himself? The same would apply for a younger woman in a relationship with an older man, too. Each one of us needs to either BE or BE on the ROAD to financial independence. To depend on another person for total financial security in this global economy is risky at best, regardless of the circumstances.

I also believe it critical to have a balance of power in a relationship. Each person earning as much of their own keep as possible brings that balance into a relationship. Phil is with me because he chooses every day to be with me. He's not with me because he can't afford to be anywhere else. I respect Phil too much, even though he's only in his early 20's, to make him a financial hostage. And he has too much self respect not to contribute to the household the best he can through paying his own way, buying meals occasionally, doing housework, laundry, etc.

Men are raised to be providers. At least most of them have been, through the years. But these days every man and woman needs to be able to provide for themselves. Phil can and does provide for himself now and is building the skill to provide for himself and a family in the future. No older woman should expect less of a very young man, IMHO. The same goes for OM and YW, too.

Originally Posted by Mark

Explain what you mean by this, please.

What I meant was, whether it is OW/YM or OM/YW, it depends on the relationship. Trust is a big thing, too.

If you are casually dating, I wouldn't suggest anyone start giving out money hand-over-fist. It is pretty risky both for a man or a woman, no matter what their age.

But, if you are in a committed relationship and have already decided that you are going to be married or remain committed, it is hard for (me personally) to say "This is mine and that is yours and come hell or high water I'm keeping mine." To me, it is a partnership and everyone contributes what they have to the family pot.

My ex in laws keep their finances separate (his 3rd marriage and her 2nd) and, having been a stay-at-home mother, she has limited funds. He has a much bigger nest egg. It just makes me cringe that she can't buy anything and has to ask him for money. And they have been together for over 10 years. To me, that is just wrong. He is older and she cares for him. I doubt he pays her for it, yet it is "his" money.

Of course, if they were just dating, I could see keeping things separate, but at this point it seems stupid.

Excellent points, Kristin and Goldie Cat

Mark, do you have a particular concern on the financial topic?

*I* would give those men that same advice.

Me too....and I agree, goldie, fostering dependence in anyone is not healthy, and most usually results in resentment....or at the very least, uncomfortable, sticky, disentanglement issues down the road.

The whole financial thing always grabs my attention, as most of you know my sitch. Robin works with me in lieu of a seperate job (which I want, because it makes my day easier) and I don't pay him, I pay the bills. He works handyman jobs to pay for his food, cigs, gasoline, etc. I would be comfortable having him as a house husband if I were wealthy, but I would be comfortable having an older partner as a house husband too, if I was in love with that person. I would make an awesome stay-at-home housewife also, were that to be a choice.

My dad is 13 years older than my mom. For years, he worked, she controlled the money, and she stayed home. When we were teens and she was alone most of the time, she went back to work. Their money was always combined.

When my dad retired, my mom worked for 15 more years supporting them while my dad's pension checks bought more stocks. So, HE supported HER the first 15 years of marriage...and SHE supported HIM the last 15 of their working lives. They are still happily married, now both retired, and traveling their happy little butts off whenever and wherever they so desire!

The first thing my dad said to me when I told him Robin was 15 years younger was: "Well, it'll work out GREAT financially! He'll still be working for 15 years when you're retired!"

I guess if you're together long enough, the sacrifice the older partner makes in the beginning is balanced out in the end. I DO look for my relationship to be very long-term, hopefully until death do us part. Since I look at it that way, I am looking at goals this year, five years from now, ten years from now, etc.