Dreading Tomorrow

[MissMuffins]

The grumpy guy and I are at a crossroad in our relationship. I realized several days ago that we need to talk; he picked up on that and has been avoiding it. He's finally ready, and tomorrow is the day. I honestly don't know what he's going to bring to the table, and part of me is dreading the conversation.

The last time he got like this, we broke up and remained friends. On the one hand, I didn't want to break up; on the other, I understood where he was coming from. We remained friends and within a couple of weeks, we were back together. If he wants to break up again, we're done. I bear no animosity toward him, but if we're going to move on, we need to move on. For me, that means no keeping in touch with each other and no staying friends. If I run into him a year from now, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

I don't want to break up, because on the whole I am happy with the relationship. However, he's been drinking very heavily recently. We haven't known each other long enough for me to know if this is how much he drinks normally or if this is an atypical behavior. I do know that drinking is both a coping mechanism and a form of self-medication for him, and he has said several times that he needs to drink less or quit altogether. It worries me a lot, and for his own good I want him to either entirely stop drinking or significantly reduce his alcohol intake and limit it to 1 or 2 drinks a day, 1 or 2 times a week.

I don't feel like we're at the stage of our relationship for me to give him an ultimatum--we're not living together, engaged or married. Even if we were, ultimatums rarely work anyway. Having said that, as much as I like and care about him, I can't stay in a situation with someone who likes beer more than he likes me.

Discussions about where the relationship is going, being scared of commitment, communication, respecting my time, etc. are moot points if he's an alcoholic, or if he's a binge drinker and not ready to end this months-long binge.

Did I mention how much this hurts?

I care a great deal for the grumpy guy and I want him to be part of my life for a long time. I like him, I admire him, I respect him, I trust him, I enjoy his company and I think we're good together. We're sexually compatible. We have a lot in common. He doesn't "make" me happy, but I am happy with him. I don't feel like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when he's around. Although he definitely appreciates it when I do, I don't have to wear the right clothes, makeup, hairstyle and perfume to be beautiful in his eyes. I can say whatever I want and I don't have to worry about being "tactful" or "politically correct." There are many, many things I'm willing to give him time to deal with, but substance abuse of any kind isn't one of them. That's an absolute deal breaker.

MM

[truckman]

First, I am sorry for what you are going through. Hopefully you both will have the opportunity to sit down and get it all out on the table sooner than later, for I'm sure not knowing is adding to your angst.

From your well-balanced, thoughtful post, it seems to me if he was not drinking at least you would be more than happy with the relationship.

Adding in your last thread about GrumpyGuy...

Alcohol is a depressant and those with clinical bi-polar, depression and anxiety should not be drinking at all - period - because those with these illnesses can very easily spiral downward without much of a catalyst and alcohol usually amplifies that effect.

Certain anti-depressants, particularly from the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) family, can do emotional harm when mixed with alcohol, in effect giving the opposite result of what the anti-depressant is taken for in the first place.

Examples of SSRI's are Citalopram (Celexa), Escitalopram (Lexapro), Fluoxetine (Prozac, Prozac Weekly), Paroxetine (Paxil, Paxil CR, Pexeva), Sertraline (Zoloft) and their generic equivalents. I put a short list since in your other thread you didn't want to give the name of the medication he was on so I'll let you see if it matches ;-)

I totally "get" your concern about his drinking, and am not encouraging you to tolerate potential alcoholic behavior - however it's very possible, all things considered, if he gave up the alcohol he himself might feel 100 times better overall and that may help him perceive and appreciate the relationship in the same manner that you obviously do, and that alone may help the two if you continue forward in a more positive light.

For the substance-user, the problem with alcohol, drugs, smoking and other chemically-powerful vices is giving them up seems to equate giving up great joy, even though there is no joy in hangovers, emphysema, cancers and liver damage and we all know this.

To quit, one not only has to decide they are going to quit, but also realize they aren't making a sacrifice by doing so. I think most people who are unsuccessful at quitting something serious fail miserably because in their mind quitting "whatever" is deemd to be a major sacrifice of some kind.

Anyway, none of us have the benefit of knowing what you are going to be talking about in the near future since it hasn't occured yet so I'll refrain from branching off and putting ideas in your head, even inadvertently by guessing.

You are right about ultimatims, and even though sometimes we are tempted to put our foot down in that manner rarely does it work so the way we desire and your illustration of your thinking here is absolutely spot on - stay if it suits you, leave if it doesn't, everything else falls appropriately.

Good luck, and do let us know how it pans out. I'm rooting for you either way.

[gorillagirl]

You wrote: "I can't stay in a situation with someone who likes beer more than he likes me. "

My husband and I are splitting up because he is an extreme WORKaholic and he loves his computer programming more than he loves me so I can relate.

Sorry but if he is TRULY an alcoholic (as opposed to a binge drinker), he's not relationship material right now and it's time to move along.

Don't take it personally. If he's an addict, it's not about you.

MM

I thought a long time before replying. I'm offering my thoughts constructively, not to put you down. My perspective may be close to that of your guy's perspective. I'm hoping my thoughts help you prepare for your talk in some way.

You haven't described his drinking very well, and you haven't described how much you drink at all. Someone who doesn't drink has a lower threshold for what they would describe as excessive drinking. You haven't mentioned any of the usual problems of alcoholism. I don't know if he has a problem, if you're over-reacting, or if you're "psyching" yourself for the upcoming conversation.

1 or 2 drinks once or twice per week sounds extreme to me, the same as no drinks at all. The amount a person drinks, if at all, can be the result of generational and cultural influences. For instance, I'm a bit of a throw-back to an older generation, where I come from a man drinks, daily. Not because he has to, but because he enjoys it, like a good cigar. I honestly don't trust or respect people who don't drink, unless they are a recovering alcoholic.

Ultimatums don't work well with me. Because I'm defiant. Because an ultimatum is a control mechanism. Because an ultimatum reflects disrespect. Because I expect acceptance. Because I live by my rules, no one else's. Because if I let someone get away with giving me an ultimatum once, they'll do it again. Because I never let my lady tell me how to run my life. Give me an ultimatum and I'll do exactly the opposite of what you were expecting ... every time.

From my perspective, if you're going to give your guy an ultimatum, your relationship is already over.

with care, -G

[MissMuffins]

TM, you're right--not knowing is contributing to my angst. It's early evening here and I had thought that we would have talked by this time today. We haven't yet, and it's making me sick to my stomach. You're also correct that the amount and frequency of his alcohol consumption is of far less concern to me than the fact he's drinking while depressed.

gg, right now the only thing I know is that I am frustrated. To be completely honest, I don't think the grumpy guy is an alcoholic. For lack of a better way to put it, I think that alcohol is one of his comfort foods. If he was pigging out on chocolate chip cookies, I wouldn't think anything of it. I'm frustrated because recently, it seems like every time I want to talk to the grumpy guy, I can't because he's liquored up.

Geo, I'm not a fan of ultimatums. They're ineffective. However, my conflict and communication styles are such that people frequently don't realize I'm quite angry, deeply hurt, "over it" and on my way out the door until I speak to them in a way that makes me feel as though I have been very nasty, snapped, or given them an ultimatum. On those occasions when I haven't given someone this "final warning," I've been almost universally accused of not communicating with the person. I, on the other hand, feel as though I've communicated until I'm blue in the face, have been entirely ignored and that the other person has deliberately pushed me to my limit.

I don't care if the grumpy guy drinks, how much he drinks, or if he drinks every day. For his own sake, I do care if he gets drunk every day, goes on a binge every weekend, or drives with a blood alcohol level above the legal limit. He doesn't need to kill someone else or himself.

I enjoy alcohol but I don't drink much because I can't. I am at uber-high risk for diabetes and I also have to be very, very kind to my liver and kidneys. I had a serotonin reaction several years ago, and in my teens I made multiple suicide attempts with acetaminophen (Tylenol). I don't have a pattern--if I want to drink, I drink. Sometimes it's every night, sometimes it's once every 3 months. When I do drink, I typically cut myself off at two.

What I had hoped to talk to him about are things like communication, trust, expectations and level of commitment. We've been together going on 6 months and people are starting to make assumptions that neither he nor I are comfortable with, and it's important to me that he know they're not my assumptions. He and I, not public opinion, are in charge of our relationship. We both need time to adjust to some things, and I'm comfortable being in an exclusive, intimate relationship without being engaged. Clarifying those were much more important to me than how much alcohol he consumes and how frequently, until he started drinking heavily and referring to himself as an alcoholic.

Maya Angelou says "when someone tells you who they are, believe them...the first time." I know that alcoholism is an absolute deal breaker for me.

MM

Originally Posted by MissMuffins

... my conflict and communication styles are such that people frequently don't realize I'm quite angry, deeply hurt, "over it" and on my way out the door until I speak to them in a way that makes me feel as though I have been very nasty, snapped, or given them an ultimatum. On those occasions when I haven't given someone this "final warning," I've been almost universally accused of not communicating with the person. I, on the other hand, feel as though I've communicated until I'm blue in the face, have been entirely ignored and that the other person has deliberately pushed me to my limit ...

Must be your smile

Alcohol as a comfort food, that's a good one, I'm putting that one amongst my list of excuses.

seriously ... You know you have my heartfelt wishes for the best of luck in this. Print out your last post and read it to him verbatim. I think its perfect.

-G

[MissMuffins]

Originally Posted by Geo55

Must be your smile

I think that a big part of it is because I rarely yell. When I do, oh boy look out.

It's usually not until I start screaming, threatening or using a lot of very, very crude profanity (I grew up around loggers and my ex was a sailor) that the person understands that I'm not happy with the situation. If I say "I'm uncomfortable talking about this," they keep going. When reiterate it, they keep going. When I say "I've just told you twice that I'm not comfortable talking about this," and then leave the room--telling them I'll be back in 10 or 15 minutes--they supposedly have no clue what set me off. From my perspective, they ignored me utterly and have absolutely no sense of professional demeanor. go figure.

The grumpy guy has issues. I know that. Hell, I have issues & every time he tells me that he has issues, I tell him he's got subscriptions and libraries.

[southrnboysgirl]

Originally Posted by Geo55

I honestly don't trust or respect people who don't drink, unless they are a recovering alcoholic.
-G

Geo55,
Are you sure that's what you meant to say? Sounds a bit harsh, for you

[MissMuffins]

...and we still haven't talked about "it."

We spent time together and we spoke during that time, but we didn't talk about whatever issues sent him running for cover. The best I got out of him was a text message about it being hard to talk to me as a friend when we've been lovers. I vacillate between feeling like I still don't have a f-ing clue and feeling like I have a little more insight but still don't really know what's going on.

After observing him this past weekend and on other occasions, recalling previous conversations, and re-reading some email from several months ago, my best guess is that the grumpy guy:
a) is undergoing a radical paradigm shift,
b) wants a relationship with me,
c) feels that the relationship with me is mportant to him, and
d) started pursuing relationships before he dealt with his divorce.

I don't have thoughts of "he's changing for me." Based on what he's told me, I think he's always desired a relationship and struggled with some personal issues which caused him to choose the wrong women and do things that sabotaged himself.

I think that after his divorce and before he met me (I'm the third woman he's been with since his divorce), he realized that he wants a relationship rather than casual sex or "friends with benefits" and recognized that in order to have the type and quality of relationship he wants, he'd have to make some changes.

I think he didn't expect this kind of relationship to develop--I know that I didn't expect it. If I had realized that his separation and divorce were recent...as in, when we met, it was a about a year and a half after their final separation and they'd been divorced for almost 9 months...I would have kept it at the "interested friends" level until he had time to pull his head out. If something else came along first, c'est la vie.

To further complicate the situation, he was faced with some other heavy-duty, non-divorce issues during their separation and divorce which, due to their nature, took immediate precedence to the divorce. Since the divorce it's been a fairly steady stream of drama, stemming from the fact that they somehow managed to get a divorce that didn't fully address distribution of property and debts, and they have a parenting plan & support agreement that doesn't specify things like who'll carry the kids' health insurance or how they'll split the premiums, deductible, out-of-pocket expenses, etc. (I strongly suspect that his ex wife made the most of the situation because she thought she'd get a more generous settlement.)

So much has happened in such a short amount of time, it's the God's-honest truth that the grumpy guy really hasn't had time to process much of anything, let alone reach closure on it.

When I became fully aware of these things, our relationship had already become intimate. If I felt like he'd lied to me or deliberately withheld information from me, it would be easy for me to say "screw this" and end the relationship. That's not the case, and even though it's a lot to deal with, I think that what's developing between us is worth me giving him the time and space to work it through at his own pace. At the same time, he chose this relationship, too. He doesn't get a free pass on contributing to its development and maintenance.

I've wondered whether he's one of those people who's in love with the idea of being in love, yet cannot sustain a relationship after the initial endorphin surge wears off. Then I considered the commitments he's made & kept to other people and how long he stayed in previous relationships--not just promises made to former lovers and previous romantic relationships, but the full spectrum of commitments and relationships--and I think that's not the case. Even when he was being an A-1, first class Cassanova, he didn't go out of his way to be a jerk. He let a lot of women ride roughshod over him just because he didn't know how to politely tell them to f-off, and when he made a commitment, he kept it.

I suspect that even though he's said that he got tired of the games nearly 20 years ago, he doesn't know how to be in a relationship with a woman who doesn't play games.

After I recall other things he's shared with me, I realize that even though he is, by his own admission, scared, he is making a sincere effort to confront those fears instead of run from them.

And, who knows? Maybe I'm wrong.

MM

[southrnboysgirl]

MM, I feel your frustration and confusion. Have you pressed the issue or are you just waiting for him to talk? You know, you can also make this conversation happen so you don't have to conjecture.

Another thing that might help is have you considered taking a 'time out'. It is not breaking up at all but some distance might be good for both of you; him to get himself together and figure out what is going on without feel any pressure (and I am not saying here that he feels pressure from you, but you indicate that he bends over backwards not to be 'that guy', sometimes to his detriment). For you it will take away the stress of watching him struggle with his drinking/depression etc. For both it can be a way to see how life feels without the other. Sometimes it can give perspective and can be the grounds for a substantive conversation.

well, these are just my thoughts.
good luck- and TAKE CARE

sidney

[MissMuffins]

SBG,

I have considered a time out. I didn't know how to ask for one because I was concerned that the grumpy guy would perceive my suggestion for a "time out" as a euphemistic expression requesting permission to see other people or to prolong the agony of a break up.

My oldest son is home on leave from the military and will be spending most of this week with me. I let the grumpy guy know that I wouldn't be available to spend time with him while my son was here, and asked the grumpy guy if he wanted to spend time with me last night or tonight, before my son gets here. He didn't want to.

He's steadfastly made himself inaccessible to me for face-to-face conversation, so I spilled my guts in an email and received no response. I just sent him a text message bluntly asking him if he wants to take a time out until after the New Year, or if he was done with "us." He may already be asleep, so I don't know if I'll receive a reply in a few minutes, tomorrow morning, or never.

To compound the matter, I had a rough day on several fronts. It's nothing I can't deal with, but it left me in a bad frame of mind & I'm pretty much done with any endeavor that doesn't amount to much more than pissing up a rope.

Part of being in a relationship and having people in your life is so you don't have to end days like this alone. Yet here I am, at a keyboard when I don't have to be. The person I'm supposedly in a relationship with is a 15 minute drive away, and he has chosen to shut me out.

In this moment, I am so full of cumulative hurt that I can't see the forest for the trees.

I can be patient, understanding, accommodating, etc. until I'm blue in the face, but I can't make someone talk to me and I can't keep someone in a relationship that he doesn't want to be in.

MM

[southrnboysgirl]

Grumps better pull it together- and pronto; time waits for no man.

[grumpysgirl]

Here is my take.
It sounds to me as if he has a drinking problem and maybe TRIED to quit in the past and started again. Who knows. If it were me though I would take a huge time out until he gets it together. It is not your job to play mommy to him if you understand what I am saying. Don't be co-dependant on him sister.

You can love and care about it all you want but if it is not received, WHY would you want to be with him??? Protect your heart and mind girl.

[MissMuffins]

I'm enjoying time with my son and doing things that I need to do to take care of myself, such as focusing more intently on my job search and submitting applications for other forms of assistance since I'm not eligible for unemployment. That stuff is more important than worrying about my relationship with the grumpy guy.

Thanks for being here, and I'll keep checking in w/you.

MM
.

[grumpysgirl]

Originally Posted by MissMuffins

I'm enjoying time with my son and doing things that I need to do to take care of myself, such as focusing more intently on my job search and submitting applications for other forms of assistance since I'm not eligible for unemployment. That stuff is more important than worrying about my relationship with the grumpy guy.

Thanks for being here, and I'll keep checking in w/you.

MM
.

well here is some huggles your way!